Back to the Roots Amiga-News 238
u6663...@spawnkill.ip-mobilphone.net
----------------------------------------
Hello Amiga friends,
now that summer is past here, we've
prepared some sports events for you, to test your
winter fitness.
"Summer Olympiad" (Tynesoft) allows you to compete
in many various events. "Buffalo Bill's Rodeo
Games" takes you to the wild west. With "Shadow
Fighter" and "Karate Kid 2" you can train your arms
and legs. Show us your soccer skills with "Empire
Soccer" and how you can ride a motor-bike in "Super
Hang On". Training for your brain is offered
with "K240", "Millenium 2.2" and more! Last but
not least we'd like to inform you that you can put
on an astronaut's suit in the legendary game "Exile"
and that you can run faster than Sonic together
with the cute little dog "Tearaway Thomas"!
This update even features rare box scans (e.g. XR35,
Quik and Silva) and articles about two great Amiga
demo groups: Ephidrena and Loonies.
Games, Demos, Music and more... What else do you
want? Visit "Back to the Roots"!
Respects from yours
Back to the Roots Team
----------------------------------------
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Orange
u6663...@spawnkill.ip-mobilphone.net wrote:
>"Summer Olympiad" (Tynesoft) allows you to compete
..
Are ANY of the games on that web site originals (not cracked)?
P.S. Crossposting is (usually) bad.
--
Orange.
Angelo
"Orange" <qra...@mail.ru> wrote in message
news:sj1jtu4drmp6254cs...@4ax.com...
Yes. That said the most are "patched" to work with
kickstarts beyond 1.3 and processors beyond 680000.
Jim
István Fábián
> u6663...@spawnkill.ip-mobilphone.net wrote:
>
> >"Summer Olympiad" (Tynesoft) allows you to compete
> ..
>
> Are ANY of the games on that web site originals (not cracked)?
>
>
Almost never. Some have the cracker's intro, messages etc removed, but they
are cracks regardless.
Most of the original games contain information that is normally not
representable in any way by a normal AmigaDOS dump (better known as adf) of
the disk.
This is going to change soon - watch this space and our website.
István Fábián
CAPS - The Classic Amiga Preservation Society
http://www.caps-project.org
Nathan
> Orange wrote:
[Back to the Roots]
>> Are ANY of the games on that web site originals (not cracked)?
>
> Almost never. Some have the cracker's intro, messages etc removed,
> but they are cracks regardless.
> Most of the original games contain information that is normally not
> representable in any way by a normal AmigaDOS dump (better known as
> adf) of the disk.
> This is going to change soon - watch this space and our website.
Wohoo! (This is like all those bits in Babylon 5, when you know
there's somethign big going to happen, and they keep hinting at
it, and you keep thinking "boy, this is going to be good!") <grin>
Cheers for the heads-up István.
Nathan.
István Fábián
"Nathan" <tko...@yahoo.co.nz> wrote in message
news:3DDAB19D...@yahoo.co.nz...
families so anything might happen. Especially during the Christmas season or
around New Year's Eve...
Apart from this... what you write is correct.
István
Nathan
> "Nathan" wrote in message
> >Wohoo! (This is like all those bits in Babylon 5, when you know
> >there's somethign big going to happen, and they keep hinting at
> >it, and you keep thinking "boy, this is going to be good!")
>
> NP, but remember: we are - almost ;) - real people with real
> jobs and real families so anything might happen. Especially
> during the Christmas season or around New Year's Eve...
> Apart from this... what you write is correct.
Still sounds just like B5 to me. :) ..I was waiting for this
amazing battle that I was sure would take up half a season or
more... And they manage to wrap it in a couple of episodes!
:-( Talk about anticlimax. hehe..
(Okay, so maybe it's not just like B5 .. the battle wasn't late.
I just liked the analogy.) :)
Seriously though, you are quite right. You are real people with
real jobs, and I'm sure most sensible people are intelligent
enough to realise that anything like this is a gift, and nothing
should be expected with such projects. (Ah, if only there weren't
so many moron's online, eh? Life would be easier.)
It's like, my favourite game on the Amiga these days is ADoM.
It's written by an amazingly busy guy with much in the way of
real jobs and a real life to keep him busy. ..I've learned to
be patient.
Nathan.
István Fábián
> István Fábián wrote:
>
> > "Nathan" wrote in message
>
>
> > >Wohoo! (This is like all those bits in Babylon 5, when you know
> > >there's somethign big going to happen, and they keep hinting at
> > >it, and you keep thinking "boy, this is going to be good!")
> >
> > NP, but remember: we are - almost ;) - real people with real
> > jobs and real families so anything might happen. Especially
> > during the Christmas season or around New Year's Eve...
> > Apart from this... what you write is correct.
>
> Still sounds just like B5 to me. :) ..I was waiting for this
> amazing battle that I was sure would take up half a season or
> more... And they manage to wrap it in a couple of episodes!
> :-( Talk about anticlimax. hehe..
>
> (Okay, so maybe it's not just like B5 .. the battle wasn't late.
> I just liked the analogy.) :)
btw: Is B5 really still running? It had poor viewing rate over here, and the
sequel (Crusade? can't remember) flopped completely.
>
> Seriously though, you are quite right. You are real people with
> real jobs, and I'm sure most sensible people are intelligent
> enough to realise that anything like this is a gift, and nothing
> should be expected with such projects. (Ah, if only there weren't
> so many moron's online, eh? Life would be easier.)
Certainly.
>
> It's like, my favourite game on the Amiga these days is ADoM.
> It's written by an amazingly busy guy with much in the way of
> real jobs and a real life to keep him busy. ..I've learned to
> be patient.
>
> Nathan.
"Good things come to those who wait" say all the good people in possession
of all those goods expected by those who wait ;)
István
Eric Haines
> sequel (Crusade? can't remember) flopped completely.
>
The SciFi channel keeps showing B5 daily, over and over again (on
its fifth run-though now I think), so it must be doing OK. Also
they show Crusade sometimes too. (Then again, what else do they have
of any real worth?) Crusade didn't do badly on TNT when it first
aired, but the production was halted and it was cancelled before the
first episode aired, so it had no chance.
--Eric
István Fábián
"Eric Haines" <eha...@ivwnet.DOT.com> wrote in message
news:3DDD354E.MD-...@ivwnet.DOT.com...
Cheers!
I don't really remember - I got bored with it -, but I think 2 seasons were
aired over here. But could be just my (sometimes not failing...) memory.
István
Eric Haines
> > its fifth run-though now I think), so it must be doing OK. Also
> > they show Crusade sometimes too. (Then again, what else do they have
> > of any real worth?) Crusade didn't do badly on TNT when it first
> > aired, but the production was halted and it was cancelled before the
> > first episode aired, so it had no chance.
> >
> > --Eric
>
> Cheers!
> I don't really remember - I got bored with it -, but I think 2 seasons were
> aired over here. But could be just my (sometimes not failing...) memory.
>
> István
Bored? Gee, it's only one of the best series of all time. :) It
made the full five seasons. It's the only TV show I've ever bothered
to tape and watch more than once.
--Eric
John Burns
> István Fábián wrote:
>
> > "Nathan" wrote in message
>
>
> > >Wohoo! (This is like all those bits in Babylon 5, when you know
> > >there's somethign big going to happen, and they keep hinting at
> > >it, and you keep thinking "boy, this is going to be good!")
> >
> > NP, but remember: we are - almost ;) - real people with real
> > jobs and real families so anything might happen. Especially
> > during the Christmas season or around New Year's Eve...
> > Apart from this... what you write is correct.
>
> Still sounds just like B5 to me. :) ..I was waiting for this amazing battle
> that I was sure would take up half a season or more... And they manage to
> wrap it in a couple of episodes!
> :-( Talk about anticlimax. hehe..
>
In their defence I think this was the correct thing to do since invariably
whilst a war may drag on for years individual battles are usually short affairs.
> (Okay, so maybe it's not just like B5 .. the battle wasn't late. I just
> liked the analogy.) :)
>
> Seriously though, you are quite right. You are real people with real jobs,
> and I'm sure most sensible people are intelligent enough to realise that
> anything like this is a gift, and nothing should be expected with such
> projects. (Ah, if only there weren't so many moron's online, eh? Life
> would be easier.)
Agreed but it can be fun taking the p**s out of the Tim Rue's of this world.
> It's like, my favourite game on the Amiga these days is ADoM. It's written
> by an amazingly busy guy with much in the way of real jobs and a real life
> to keep him busy. ..I've learned to be patient.
Yeah a great game (though admittedly I haven't played it for about 6 months or
so). Who needs fancy GFX/SFX. Mind you a 3D first person perspective version
would be nice as long as the gameplay remained the same (is that actually
possible? - I have my reservations).
Angelo
Wonder what ever happened to Space Above and Beyond?
Seemed promising in story line then ZZZZZzzzzzt they
killed it.
Jim
István Fábián
I meant Crusade.
I remember it looked awesome in the pilot, then somehow I quickly lost
interest.
Best series? How about some fun with the Bundies - Married with Children? ;)
István
István Fábián
world.
István
István Fábián
> whilst a war may drag on for years individual battles are usually short
affairs.
István
István Fábián
> Wonder what ever happened to Space Above and Beyond?
> Seemed promising in story line then ZZZZZzzzzzt they
> killed it.
>
> Jim
The station showing it exclusively (TV3) went bust, so I thought the rights
went to limbo over here, as it was not aired anymore.
Speaking of Sci-fi (new topic maybe?) is Earth: Final Conflict still
running? It was from the author of Star Trek (Gene Roddenberry)
István
Joona I Palaste
>> Agreed but it can be fun taking the p**s out of the Tim Rue's of this
> world.
> Tim Rue?
Tim Rue is a local celebrity over at comp.sys.amiga.misc. He has been
posting there somewhat regularly since oh, 1994 or 1995, or perhaps
even earlier. Tim Rue is a crackpot who has his own ideas of how to
change the future of Amiga computing as we know it, but he presents
his arguments in such a muddled fashion that no one understands them.
And when people call him crazy, he gets insulted, and posts large
amounts of drivel no one wants to read anyway.
--
/-- Joona Palaste (pal...@cc.helsinki.fi) ---------------------------\
| Kingpriest of "The Flying Lemon Tree" G++ FR FW+ M- #108 D+ ADA N+++|
| http://www.helsinki.fi/~palaste W++ B OP+ |
\----------------------------------------- Finland rules! ------------/
"Hasta la Vista, Abie!"
- Bart Simpson
Eric Haines
> I remember it looked awesome in the pilot, then somehow I quickly lost
> interest.
That only lasted 13 episodes because TNT meddled around with it, and
then killed it. And then they eventually showed it as a "special
limited series."
> Best series? How about some fun with the Bundies - Married with Children? ;)
>
> István
Sorry, wouldn't know. :)
--Eric
Eric Haines
> Seemed promising in story line then ZZZZZzzzzzt they
> killed it.
>
> Jim
It was horribly expensive (US$2 million per episode) and wasn't
getting ratings to justify it. So it disappeared, and the producers
went back to The X-Files (where they came from), and used all the
actors from Space: Above and Beyond in various episodes over the next
season.
Speaking of series that last one season and get killed by Fox, anyone
who can might want to check out Firefly while it lasts. Despite a
rather unpromising first episode, I think it's quickly become the best
sf series since Babylon 5.
--Eric
István Fábián
You are missing out - some people find it really tasteless - and it is :)
It's about a disaster family, but it became very funny in its own way.
Practically each episode is about the same crappy life they live, with
similar dialogs and events, but it is somehow very addicitve - just like
real life ;)
It also lasted for more, than 10 years, starting in 1986.
It is one of the few non-scifi/fantasy series that can survive as many
re-runs as they like and still attract viewers (like myself).
István
István Fábián
"Joona I Palaste" <pal...@cc.helsinki.fi> wrote in message
news:arl9hn$ni$1...@oravannahka.helsinki.fi...
> "István Fábián" <as...@where.com> scribbled the following:
> >> Agreed but it can be fun taking the p**s out of the Tim Rue's of this
> > world.
> > Tim Rue?
>
> Tim Rue is a local celebrity over at comp.sys.amiga.misc. He has been
> posting there somewhat regularly since oh, 1994 or 1995, or perhaps
> even earlier. Tim Rue is a crackpot who has his own ideas of how to
> change the future of Amiga computing as we know it, but he presents
> his arguments in such a muddled fashion that no one understands them.
> And when people call him crazy, he gets insulted, and posts large
> amounts of drivel no one wants to read anyway.
>
Thanks for the info. :)
Seems like I've missed a lot without TR - not.
István
Angus Manwaring
>>
>> Cheers!
>> I don't really remember - I got bored with it -, but I think 2 seasons were
>> aired over here. But could be just my (sometimes not failing...) memory.
>>
>> István
>Bored? Gee, it's only one of the best series of all time. :) It
>made the full five seasons. It's the only TV show I've ever bothered
>to tape and watch more than once.
Abso-fragging-lutely!
I think a lot of people missed out with B5 because these days a proper
story told across 5 series, with a beginning, a middle and an end, is just
not done. People are (or were) used to stuff like ST:NG where you could
pretty much watch any episode in complete isolation from the rest of the
series. Each episode came with the famous "reset switch".
The X Files is excellent IMHO, but it basically suffers from the same
thing, okay evreything changes, but really nothing changes. IMHO. :)
All the best,
Angus Manwaring. (for e-mail remove ANTISPEM)
I need your memories for the Amiga Games Database: A collection of Amiga
Game reviews by Amiga players http://www.angusm.demon.co.uk/AGDB/AGDB.html
Seppo Typpo
"Married with Children" was one of the best comedy series ever, imho.
Much like in "The Simpsons" the family that is starring in the show is
far from ideal - pretty much every character in show is nasty, greedy,
self-centered etc - to put is short, you would not want the Bundys to
your neighbourhood :-)
Seppo
Eric Haines
> >made the full five seasons. It's the only TV show I've ever bothered
> >to tape and watch more than once.
>
> Abso-fragging-lutely!
>
> I think a lot of people missed out with B5 because these days a proper
> story told across 5 series, with a beginning, a middle and an end, is just
> not done. People are (or were) used to stuff like ST:NG where you could
> pretty much watch any episode in complete isolation from the rest of the
> series. Each episode came with the famous "reset switch".
>
> The X Files is excellent IMHO, but it basically suffers from the same
> thing, okay evreything changes, but really nothing changes. IMHO. :)
>
> All the best,
> Angus Manwaring. (for e-mail remove ANTISPEM)
It did have an effect on TV series, or at least sf series. Like
Earth: Final Conflict, which may not have been on the same level in
terms of being planned out from the beginning, but there were a lot of
continuing storylines that really wasn't done before B5, other than
soap operas I suppose. Also Farscape had some of that influence, and
so does Firefly. (Firefly also does one thing the producers of B5
played around with but never implemented: there's no sound in space.)
--Eric
Angus Manwaring
>> >Bored? Gee, it's only one of the best series of all time. :) It
>> >made the full five seasons. It's the only TV show I've ever bothered
>> >to tape and watch more than once.
>>
>> Abso-fragging-lutely!
>>
>> I think a lot of people missed out with B5 because these days a proper
>> story told across 5 series, with a beginning, a middle and an end, is just
>> not done. People are (or were) used to stuff like ST:NG where you could
>> pretty much watch any episode in complete isolation from the rest of the
>> series. Each episode came with the famous "reset switch".
>It did have an effect on TV series, or at least sf series. Like
>Earth: Final Conflict, which may not have been on the same level in
>terms of being planned out from the beginning, but there were a lot of
>continuing storylines that really wasn't done before B5, other than
>soap operas I suppose. Also Farscape had some of that influence, and
>so does Firefly. (Firefly also does one thing the producers of B5
>played around with but never implemented: there's no sound in space.)
Yes, I agree it had an effect, but IMHO the "psuedo-arc" that things like
DS9 etc have factored in is just that, a marketing feature to bring in the
B5 type audience. I would love to see Firefly, but I think Fire Escape is
basically good looking nonsense, the episodes I watched seemed to be all
built on ongoing cliff-hangers (albeit difficult to abandon) rather than a
truly designed storyline.
And I agree its been done before, things like UFO and even Blake's Seven
are good examples of an ongoing storyline, although again not to the
extent of B5 where the story was paramount (or maybe Warner Bros). :)
All the best,
Angus Manwaring. (for e-mail remove ANTISPEM)
I need your memories for the Amiga Games Database: A collection of Amiga
Angus Manwaring
>Wonder what ever happened to Space Above and Beyond?
>Seemed promising in story line then ZZZZZzzzzzt they
>killed it.
I didn't really like it, although I think it was very watchable. The thing
about fighter pilots doubling up as infantry seemed a bit dubious to me,
and I got a bit fed up with them getting into some scrape, quickly going
to pieces, and then bingo, along comes the Captain (or whatver he was) and
rescues them, and the troops go home, having learnt the true meaning of
Christmas, ......or possibly being a lily-livered, spineless undisciplined
adolescent who you wouldn't take on an overnight camping trip, let alone a
military campaign.
Sorry - end of rant :)
In a desperate effort to add some on-topicness.....
SF TV series that is best reflected in an Amiga game anybody?? :)
*****************************************************************
For me, when I was playing Star Crusader I was thinking of B5, but I know
there are some better examples...
Eric Haines
>
> SF TV series that is best reflected in an Amiga game anybody?? :)
> *****************************************************************
>
> For me, when I was playing Star Crusader I was thinking of B5, but I know
> there are some better examples...
>
> All the best,
> Angus Manwaring. (for e-mail remove ANTISPEM)
Explorer 2260, if it ever gets done (and is ported to the Amiga, last
I heard it was turning into kind of a Linux thing). The material I
saw looked very heavily B5 influenced.
--Eric
Seppo Typpo
Descent: Freespace is pretty much the closest thing to Babylon 5,
imho. You could have made a Babylon 5-type TV series from Warhead.
Oh, and Millennium 2.2 for some reason reminds me of Space 1999 :-)
Seppo
John Burns
> On 22-Nov-02 08:54:02, Angelo said
>
> >Wonder what ever happened to Space Above and Beyond?
> >Seemed promising in story line then ZZZZZzzzzzt they
> >killed it.
>
> I didn't really like it, although I think it was very watchable. The thing
> about fighter pilots doubling up as infantry seemed a bit dubious to me, and
> I got a bit fed up with them getting into some scrape, quickly going to
> pieces, and then bingo, along comes the Captain (or whatver he was) and
> rescues them, and the troops go home, having learnt the true meaning of
> Christmas, ......or possibly being a lily-livered, spineless undisciplined
> adolescent who you wouldn't take on an overnight camping trip, let alone a
> military campaign.
>
> Sorry - end of rant :)
Don't be - IMHO it seems that this is a problem lots of progs (not just SF)
suffer from. Why can't the producers just make good series without trying to
imbue them with dubious moralistic/religious subtext. The ones which really
annoy me are those which try to show "mans innate goodness and sense of justice"
something which is not borne out by the evidence of reality.
I watched the film "Contact" the other night - What a piece of dross. Whilst I
haven't read the book, written by Carl Sagen and his wife, on which it was based
I note that it was dedicated to him and can only imagine that he must be turning
in his grave at what Hollywood made of his work.
> In a desperate effort to add some on-topicness.....
> SF TV series that is best reflected in an Amiga game anybody?? :)
> *********************************************************
> For me, when I was playing Star Crusader I was thinking of B5, but I know
> there are some better examples...
>
As we (privately) discussed recently the obvious one UFO: Enemy Unknown bearing
an uncanny resemblence to the Gerry Anderson series UFO.
Plan 9 from Outer Space was of course based on a truly abysmal film. (An
accolade to which the game fully lives up to). OK, I realise that it's really a
movie licence.
Syndicate? Though I think the game actually predates anything in film/TV to
which it is similar.
Angelo
"John Burns" <jo...@grizo.free-onlineNOJUNK.co.uk> wrote in message
news:90933212724223...@news.free-online.net...
Man, bit of a pessimist aren't we? ;-)
Well I have read the book and the film faithfully covers it.
Borne out by the evidence of reality?
Well reality is that people always remember the bad for the
shock value and forget the good. It's a balance.
>
>
>
> > SF TV series that is best reflected in an Amiga game anybody?? :)
> > *********************************************************
>
> > For me, when I was playing Star Crusader I was thinking of B5, but I
know
> > there are some better examples...
> >
>
> As we (privately) discussed recently the obvious one UFO: Enemy Unknown
bearing
> an uncanny resemblence to the Gerry Anderson series UFO.
>
> Plan 9 from Outer Space was of course based on a truly abysmal film. (An
> accolade to which the game fully lives up to). OK, I realise that it's
really a
> movie licence.
>
> Syndicate? Though I think the game actually predates anything in film/TV
to
> which it is similar.
>
How about game to film? While the movie certainly was a downer,
(poor actors) Wing Commander was a descent game series and odly
enough the later game series had top notch actors. Guess they couldn't
spring the money to use them again for the movie.
Jim
Angus Manwaring
That's true - although of course Eric is right about Explorer's deepest
Babylon 5 influence.
The Rules of Engagement games reminded of Star Trek, certainly in the
graphic design of the console controls etc.
and how about the Killing Cloud, a bit of Blade Runner in there?
All the best,
Angus Manwaring. (for e-mail remove ANTISPEM)
I need your memories for the Amiga Games Database: A collection of Amiga
Angus Manwaring
>On 23 Nov 2002 10:15:50 +0000, "Angus Manwaring" wrote:
>> On 22-Nov-02 08:54:02, Angelo said
>>
>> Sorry - end of rant :)
>Don't be - IMHO it seems that this is a problem lots of progs (not just SF)
>suffer from.
Thanks for your understanding. :)
>I watched the film "Contact" the other night - What a piece of dross. Whilst
>I haven't read the book, written by Carl Sagen and his wife, on which it was
>based I note that it was dedicated to him and can only imagine that he must
>be turning in his grave at what Hollywood made of his work.
You're probably right. :)
I have a pet hate of some of the Jerry Bruckenheimer produced films. Okay,
the fantasy stuff, like Top Gun and the Rock - I think they're excellent
entertainment, but when you get into psuedo history like U571(?), Pearl
Harbour and Black Hawk Down, it really depresses me how they can be turned
into feelgood fests.
Actually Armageddon (not based on the Psygnosis game!) really got to me as
well, with its patriotic, blue-collar worker slow motion swagger... Yukkk!
Like one of those American razor blade commercials where they indicate how
successful you will be, and how proud your parents will be of you if you
use their brand..... I mean it takes me hours just removing the projectile
vomit from the speaker grill on my TV!
Sorry. (again).
>> In a desperate effort to add some on-topicness.....
>> SF TV series that is best reflected in an Amiga game anybody?? :)
>> *********************************************************
>
>> For me, when I was playing Star Crusader I was thinking of B5, but I know
>> there are some better examples...
>>
>As we (privately) discussed recently the obvious one UFO: Enemy Unknown
>bearing an uncanny resemblence to the Gerry Anderson series UFO.
Yup, that is pretty much the cigar award example isn't it.
>Plan 9 from Outer Space was of course based on a truly abysmal film. (An
>accolade to which the game fully lives up to). OK, I realise that it's really
>a movie licence.
Hey! You didn't like the film?!!
>Syndicate? Though I think the game actually predates anything in film/TV to
>which it is similar.
Its certainly one of the many that the term Bladerunner-esque has been
applied to.
Joachim Froholt
John Burns wrote:
> On 23 Nov 2002 10:15:50 +0000, "Angus Manwaring" wrote:
>
> > On 22-Nov-02 08:54:02, Angelo said
> >
> > >Wonder what ever happened to Space Above and Beyond?
> > >Seemed promising in story line then ZZZZZzzzzzt they
> > >killed it.
> >
> > I didn't really like it, although I think it was very watchable. The thing
> > about fighter pilots doubling up as infantry seemed a bit dubious to me, and
> > I got a bit fed up with them getting into some scrape, quickly going to
> > pieces, and then bingo, along comes the Captain (or whatver he was) and
> > rescues them, and the troops go home, having learnt the true meaning of
> > Christmas, ......or possibly being a lily-livered, spineless undisciplined
> > adolescent who you wouldn't take on an overnight camping trip, let alone a
> > military campaign.
> >
> > Sorry - end of rant :)
>
> Don't be - IMHO it seems that this is a problem lots of progs (not just SF)
> suffer from. Why can't the producers just make good series without trying to
> imbue them with dubious moralistic/religious subtext. The ones which really
> annoy me are those which try to show "mans innate goodness and sense of justice"
> something which is not borne out by the evidence of reality.
I liked Space: Above & Beyond, though I understand your criticism. The show
definitely had potential - only space Sci-Fi series I've liked except for B5 (and
possibly Crusade, but it wasn't up to B5's quality, and I must admit I didn't really
miss it when it went.. I think I watched it more because it was the successor to B5
than because I liked it, though there were some good moments).
>
> > In a desperate effort to add some on-topicness.....
>
> > SF TV series that is best reflected in an Amiga game anybody?? :)
> > *********************************************************
>
> > For me, when I was playing Star Crusader I was thinking of B5, but I know
> > there are some better examples...
> >
As Seppo pointed out, Descent: Freespace has a very B5-like mood.
> Syndicate? Though I think the game actually predates anything in film/TV to
> which it is similar.
There's some stuff in it that reminds me of Blade Runner. Btw, speaking of
Syndicate, it's fun to note in this day and age when there's so much talk about
violence in games, that very few of today's controversial titles are actually as
violent and brutal as Syndicate was way back in the early nineties.
Joachim
Seppo Typpo
> On 23 Nov 2002 10:15:50 +0000, "Angus Manwaring" wrote:
>
> > On 22-Nov-02 08:54:02, Angelo said
> >
> > >Wonder what ever happened to Space Above and Beyond?
> > >Seemed promising in story line then ZZZZZzzzzzt they
> > >killed it.
> >
> > I didn't really like it, although I think it was very watchable. The thing
> > about fighter pilots doubling up as infantry seemed a bit dubious to me, and
> > I got a bit fed up with them getting into some scrape, quickly going to
> > pieces, and then bingo, along comes the Captain (or whatver he was) and
> > rescues them, and the troops go home, having learnt the true meaning of
> > Christmas, ......or possibly being a lily-livered, spineless undisciplined
> > adolescent who you wouldn't take on an overnight camping trip, let alone a
> > military campaign.
> >
> > Sorry - end of rant :)
>
> Don't be - IMHO it seems that this is a problem lots of progs (not just SF)
> suffer from. Why can't the producers just make good series without trying to
> imbue them with dubious moralistic/religious subtext. The ones which really
> annoy me are those which try to show "mans innate goodness and sense of justice"
> something which is not borne out by the evidence of reality.
>
> I watched the film "Contact" the other night - What a piece of dross. Whilst I
> haven't read the book, written by Carl Sagen and his wife, on which it was based
> I note that it was dedicated to him and can only imagine that he must be turning
> in his grave at what Hollywood made of his work.
Funny, when I saw it I thought Contact was one of the better SF movies
in years - certainly far from perfect but thought-provoking,
non-violent and actually quite believable in its own way (imho).
Too many SF films nowadays are just flashy action scenes tied loosely
together with some simple illogical plot - and while being
entertaining, rarely makes me gasp my breath. And yes George, I am
talking about you! :)
Seppo
Eric Haines
> >imho. You could have made a Babylon 5-type TV series from Warhead.
> >Oh, and Millennium 2.2 for some reason reminds me of Space 1999 :-)
>
> That's true - although of course Eric is right about Explorer's deepest
> Babylon 5 influence.
Yeah. :) Actually Freespace is a lot more Star Wars than B5, I
think.
--Eric
Hidehiko Ogata
> I watched the film "Contact" the other night - What a piece of dross. Whilst I
> haven't read the book, written by Carl Sagen and his wife, on which it was based
> I note that it was dedicated to him and can only imagine that he must be turning
> in his grave at what Hollywood made of his work.
Hey, I loved that movie! (and the book too)
(me further risking my reputation of movie tastes)
--
// }{idehiko ()gata "What did ya expect in an opera?
\X/ Amiga since '86 A happy ending?" - Bugs Bunny
RIP Chuck Jones 1912-2002
Angelo
"Hidehiko Ogata" <h...@aqu.bekkoame.ne.jp> wrote in message
news:S3.T3.fM2fMx...@aqu.bekkoame.ne.jp...
You're not risking anything. it was a good movie and reflected the book
very well. Some people just don't like a SF flick unless it has gobs
of the same CG and battles in it.
Jim
István Fábián
"Hidehiko Ogata" <h...@aqu.bekkoame.ne.jp> wrote in message
news:S3.T3.fM2fMx...@aqu.bekkoame.ne.jp...
>
> > I watched the film "Contact" the other night - What a piece of dross.
Whilst I
> > haven't read the book, written by Carl Sagen and his wife, on which it
was based
> > I note that it was dedicated to him and can only imagine that he must be
turning
> > in his grave at what Hollywood made of his work.
>
> Hey, I loved that movie! (and the book too)
>
> (me further risking my reputation of movie tastes)
It is certainly not your average sf affair, so is probably not everyone's
taste.
Also it was one of the best r2 dvds in its time (3 years ago? don't
remember), with excellent commentaries, that unlike the crap you can usually
hear is very interesting.
István
John Burns
> > I meant Crusade.
> > I remember it looked awesome in the pilot, then somehow I quickly lost
> > interest.
>
> That only lasted 13 episodes because TNT meddled around with it, and then
> killed it. And then they eventually showed it as a "special limited
> series."
Well not quite, yes they meddled with JMS's scripts which led to a falling out
between the two and production being halted. So strictly speaking it was a
mutual decision (but I agree since we know who was the cause and what was the
effect). In the UK they shith**ds never bothered to tell us about this being an
unfinished series which was a rather annoying fact to find out just as I started
to get into it.
John Burns
>
> "John Burns" <jo...@grizo.free-onlineNOJUNK.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:90933212724223...@news.free-online.net...
> > On 23 Nov 2002 10:15:50 +0000, "Angus Manwaring" wrote:
> >
> > > On 22-Nov-02 08:54:02, Angelo said
> > >
> > > In a desperate effort to add some on-topicness.....
>
> Man, bit of a pessimist aren't we? ;-)
LOL
> Well I have read the book and the film faithfully covers it.
> Borne out by
> the evidence of reality?
> Well reality is that people always remember the bad for the shock value and
> forget the good. It's a balance.
Not what I meant at all. There is no evidence to suggest that we as a species
have any kind of innate goodness or, for that matter, badness. Most of the
actions which we ascribe as bad or good are not due to genetics of the species
but to the prevelent social circumstances of the time. A quick look at even the
last hundred years alone would show that most of the major decision which we
have made have had a very limited "goodness" factor being more to do with what
the most powerful want and not what actually may be best for all or even
themselves in the long run.
> > > SF TV series that is best reflected in an Amiga game anybody?? :)
> > > *********************************************************
> >
> > > For me, when I was playing Star Crusader I was thinking of B5, but I
> know
> > > there are some better examples...
> > >
> >
> > As we (privately) discussed recently the obvious one UFO: Enemy Unknown
> bearing
> > an uncanny resemblence to the Gerry Anderson series UFO.
> >
> > Plan 9 from Outer Space was of course based on a truly abysmal film. (An
> > accolade to which the game fully lives up to). OK, I realise that it's
> really a
> > movie licence.
> >
> > Syndicate? Though I think the game actually predates anything in film/TV
> to
> > which it is similar.
> >
>
> How about game to film? While the movie certainly was a downer, (poor
> actors) Wing Commander was a descent game series and odly enough the later
> game series had top notch actors. Guess they couldn't spring the money to
> use them again for the movie.
Mortal Kombat was a TV series and film wasn't it?
And what was the name of that film with Kylie and Van Damme - so good I've
erased it from memory. :) It was based on a game.
John Burns
> On 24-Nov-02 04:21:55, John Burns said
> >On 23 Nov 2002 10:15:50 +0000, "Angus Manwaring" wrote:
>
> >> On 22-Nov-02 08:54:02, Angelo said
> >>
> >> Sorry - end of rant :)
>
> >Don't be - IMHO it seems that this is a problem lots of progs (not just SF)
> >suffer from.
>
> Thanks for your understanding. :)
>
Glad to be of service. ;)
> >I watched the film "Contact" the other night - What a piece of dross. Whilst
> >I haven't read the book, written by Carl Sagen and his wife, on which it was
> >based I note that it was dedicated to him and can only imagine that he must
> >be turning in his grave at what Hollywood made of his work.
>
> You're probably right. :)
>
> I have a pet hate of some of the Jerry Bruckenheimer produced films. Okay,
> the fantasy stuff, like Top Gun and the Rock - I think they're excellent
> entertainment, but when you get into psuedo history like U571(?), Pearl
> Harbour and Black Hawk Down, it really depresses me how they can be turned
> into feelgood fests.
>
> Actually Armageddon (not based on the Psygnosis game!) really got to me as
> well, with its patriotic, blue-collar worker slow motion swagger... Yukkk!
> Like one of those American razor blade commercials where they indicate how
> successful you will be, and how proud your parents will be of you if you use
> their brand..... I mean it takes me hours just removing the projectile vomit
> from the speaker grill on my TV!
>
For myself I view these films in the say way as the "Die Hards" and Arnie flicks
more as an action movie than as a SF one - That way I'm not so often
disappointed.
> >> In a desperate effort to add some on-topicness.....
>
>
>
> >> SF TV series that is best reflected in an Amiga game anybody?? :)
> >> *********************************************************
> >
> >> For me, when I was playing Star Crusader I was thinking of B5, but I know
> >> there are some better examples...
> >>
>
> >As we (privately) discussed recently the obvious one UFO: Enemy Unknown
> >bearing an uncanny resemblence to the Gerry Anderson series UFO.
>
> Yup, that is pretty much the cigar award example isn't it.
>
>
> >Plan 9 from Outer Space was of course based on a truly abysmal film. (An
> >accolade to which the game fully lives up to). OK, I realise that it's really
> >a movie licence.
>
> Hey! You didn't like the film?!!
Nope - but I think I'm safe from critisism on this one as I don't think anyone
else did either. :)
>
> >Syndicate? Though I think the game actually predates anything in film/TV to
> >which it is similar.
>
> Its certainly one of the many that the term Bladerunner-esque has been
> applied to.
Yep.
John Burns
>
>
> John Burns wrote:
>
> > On 23 Nov 2002 10:15:50 +0000, "Angus Manwaring" wrote:
> >
> > > On 22-Nov-02 08:54:02, Angelo said
> > >
[SNIP]
> I liked Space: Above & Beyond, though I understand your criticism. The show
> definitely had potential - only space Sci-Fi series I've liked except for B5
> (and possibly Crusade, but it wasn't up to B5's quality, and I must admit I
> didn't really miss it when it went.. I think I watched it more because it
> was the successor to B5 than because I liked it, though there were some good
> moments).
Must admit that despite the earlier critisisms I did quite enjoy it and I just
started to get into Crusade when it finished. :( I suppose it was always going
to be hard being the follow up to such a successful series as B5 - but now we'll
never know.
> >
> > > In a desperate effort to add some on-topicness.....
> >
> > > SF TV series that is best reflected in an Amiga game anybody?? :)
> > > *********************************************************
> >
> > > For me, when I was playing Star Crusader I was thinking of B5, but I know
> > > there are some better examples...
> > >
>
> As Seppo pointed out, Descent: Freespace has a very B5-like mood.
>
> > Syndicate? Though I think the game actually predates anything in film/TV to
> > which it is similar.
>
> There's some stuff in it that reminds me of Blade Runner. Btw, speaking of
> Syndicate, it's fun to note in this day and age when there's so much talk
> about violence in games, that very few of today's controversial titles are
> actually as violent and brutal as Syndicate was way back in the early
> nineties.
Yep, running over people in cars, burning them up with flame throwers or just
plain blasting them backwards with the force of lead from your Uzi - Yummy. And
heck, wasn't that final mission a bugger to complete.
John Burns
> John Burns wrote:
> > On 23 Nov 2002 10:15:50 +0000, "Angus Manwaring" wrote:
> >
> > > On 22-Nov-02 08:54:02, Angelo said
> > >
[SNIP]
> > Don't be - IMHO it seems that this is a problem lots of progs (not just SF)
> > suffer from. Why can't the producers just make good series without trying to
> > imbue them with dubious moralistic/religious subtext. The ones which really
> > annoy me are those which try to show "mans innate goodness and sense of justice"
> > something which is not borne out by the evidence of reality.
> >
> > I watched the film "Contact" the other night - What a piece of dross. Whilst I
> > haven't read the book, written by Carl Sagen and his wife, on which it was based
> > I note that it was dedicated to him and can only imagine that he must be turning
> > in his grave at what Hollywood made of his work.
>
> Funny, when I saw it I thought Contact was one of the better SF movies in
> years - certainly far from perfect but thought-provoking, non-violent and
> actually quite believable in its own way (imho).
I agree to a point but given who had written the book and his knowledge of the
relevent subjects I felt let down by the "Hollywood treatment"
> Too many SF films nowadays are just flashy action scenes tied loosely
> together with some simple illogical plot - and while being entertaining,
> rarely makes me gasp my breath. And yes George, I am talking about you! :)
LOL - I agree.
John Burns
No that wasn't why I didn't like it that much. My reasons were because of the
inaccuracies in the physics and silly plotline at times. If you wish I'll
discuss these one by one if you wish (scrubbed the tape I made of it so it'll be
from memory). Another reason for disliking this film was its kowtowing to a lot
of new age and
UFO related fallacies by including but not exposing these for what they are.
Sagan himself was widely known for challenging such ideas and stories on the UFO
groups which is why I doubt he would have written these parts. No doubt they
were added by Hollywood scriptwriters to increase the film's commercial appeal,
hence my comment about his turning in his grave. That said if these elements
were in the book then I am afraid my estimation of the late Mr Sagan must go
down - he certainly should (and did) know better.
I liked "2001: A Space Odyssey" which certainly didn't contain any of your
quoted examples of why people like SF movies. However, that said I know many
people who found that film pretty incomprehensible at times and therefore not
that enjoyable. I can agree with this since I had read the book first and the
film does leave a lot unsaid/unexplained. Bladerunner is another example which I
like which doesn't contain your pre-requisites (thankfully though it was far
better than the book). I could name others but I won't belabour the point.
John Burns
Oh come on guys some of the scenes and dialogue were just plain silly. How
closely did it follow the book, I'd be interested to know? Most of the Sagan
stuff I've read is on the serious side and I do find some of the inaccuracies in
these areas of the film hard to reconcile with his undoubted knowledge of the
subject.
Angelo
It followed the book very well. Only compressed in the scenes with the
end contact and the main character. Sagan had extensive dialogue between
them over the how and why. Message remained the same
though in the film adaptation. Different medium same message.
Jim
Angelo
Well instead of me ruining your view on him, you might want to pick
up the book. ;-) Don't kill the messenger!
> I liked "2001: A Space Odyssey" which certainly didn't contain any of your
> quoted examples of why people like SF movies. However, that said I know
many
> people who found that film pretty incomprehensible at times and therefore
not
> that enjoyable. I can agree with this since I had read the book first and
the
> film does leave a lot unsaid/unexplained. Bladerunner is another example
which I
> like which doesn't contain your pre-requisites (thankfully though it was
far
> better than the book). I could name others but I won't belabour the point.
Well 2001 did have a very dramatic life/death/birth sequence at the end.
No flashy CG for 2001 (didn't exist ;-)
Bladrunner? Now come on, it's filled frame to frame with battle sequences.
The main protagonist is a new age bounty hunter for lack of a better term.
And there was extensive CG in Bladerunner. Every scene above 1-2
story view was CG mixed with matte painting. Not that it's a bad thing but
there you have it.
They did make extensive use of miniatures as well. (very nicely done IMHO)
Jim
Angelo
Well therin lies the rub. To make it evident or dismiss it you have to apply
your own sense of what is "goodness" and what is not.
It's the benefit and the curse of being self aware.
For the most part the human race inately wants to live -- Good thing
Just not always with each other. ;-)
WW-II was certainly not an endeavor on the Allied side by the more
powerful and it's goal was certainly not a limited factor.
Now the divying up after the war was certainly very limited in it's
benefit to all scope.
Ahh!!!! (scrubs eyes trying to remove the bad film image ;-)
I believe it was Captain America or American Fighter something.
Jim
István Fábián
"Angelo" <james...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:EzGE9.2993$wS.2...@news1.west.cox.net...
before the movie was finished though), and any changes were made using his
advice.
István
István Fábián
> Mortal Kombat was a TV series and film wasn't it?
The first movie has a superb title presentation with one of the best techno
music ever, and... well, that's it ;)
The TV flick I'm not sure I have seen completely since in the last episode
I've watched the evil wins for a change. There might be more seasons...
however unlikely :)
>
> And what was the name of that film with Kylie and Van Damme - so good I've
> erased it from memory. :) It was based on a game.
Street Fighter with late Raul Julia (Addams Family movies among others) as
Bison the general.
Joachim Froholt
John Burns wrote:
> On Sun, 24 Nov 2002 10:38:27 GMT, Joachim Froholt wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > John Burns wrote:
> >
> > > On 23 Nov 2002 10:15:50 +0000, "Angus Manwaring" wrote:
> > >
> > > > On 22-Nov-02 08:54:02, Angelo said
> > > >
> [SNIP]
>
> > I liked Space: Above & Beyond, though I understand your criticism. The show
> > definitely had potential - only space Sci-Fi series I've liked except for B5
> > (and possibly Crusade, but it wasn't up to B5's quality, and I must admit I
> > didn't really miss it when it went.. I think I watched it more because it
> > was the successor to B5 than because I liked it, though there were some good
> > moments).
>
> Must admit that despite the earlier critisisms I did quite enjoy it and I just
> started to get into Crusade when it finished. :( I suppose it was always going
> to be hard being the follow up to such a successful series as B5 - but now we'll
> never know.
Yeah, it's a bit sad. I also started watching it without knowing it would end after
the first season, and for a long time I thought TV2 Norway just hadn't bought the
rights to the rest of the seasons, but I never really missed it as I missed new
episodes of B5 while waiting for new seasons.
> > > Syndicate? Though I think the game actually predates anything in film/TV to
> > > which it is similar.
> >
> > There's some stuff in it that reminds me of Blade Runner. Btw, speaking of
> > Syndicate, it's fun to note in this day and age when there's so much talk
> > about violence in games, that very few of today's controversial titles are
> > actually as violent and brutal as Syndicate was way back in the early
> > nineties.
>
> Yep, running over people in cars, burning them up with flame throwers or just
> plain blasting them backwards with the force of lead from your Uzi - Yummy.
And people complain about GTA 3, eh? :-)
I should really play that game again. Actually, I own Syndicate Plus for the PC.
Played it once, I think.. (I bought a bunch of games on an online actioning site,
and quickly forgot about everything except Unreal)
> And
> heck, wasn't that final mission a bugger to complete.
Err... Yees, that final mission sure was hard.. yep.. I remember that very well, I
do, that hard final mission, which I reached.. because ofcourse I finished Syndicate
like everyone else.. yes, oh, look! Kylie! With almost nothing on! Over there!
Joachim
Angus Manwaring
>John Burns wrote:
>> On Sun, 24 Nov 2002 10:38:27 GMT, Joachim Froholt wrote:
>>
>> Must admit that despite the earlier critisisms I did quite enjoy it and I
>> just started to get into Crusade when it finished. :( I suppose it was
>> always going to be hard being the follow up to such a successful series as
>> B5 - but now we'll never know.
>Yeah, it's a bit sad. I also started watching it without knowing it would end
>after the first season, and for a long time I thought TV2 Norway just hadn't
>bought the rights to the rest of the seasons, but I never really missed it as
>I missed new episodes of B5 while waiting for new seasons.
But its worth remembering that we only had half a series of Crusade to get
hooked on, and I don't know about you guys, but I certainly wasn't hooked
on B5 after a dozen episodes - I was merely interested and entertained.
It wasn't really until Chrysalis that I was really intrigued, and it was
the second series that really confirmed things. I think the first series
was mainly about getting to know the set-up, the characters and their
background, with the odd indication that things were not quite like Star
Trek.
In the three episodes that followed the cancellation, Crusade was about to
have some serious plot development with Psi Corp etc kicking into the
storyline, so I feel in fairness it can't really be judged against a
completed B5.
Angus Manwaring
>On 24 Nov 2002 10:23:22 +0000, "Angus Manwaring" wrote:
>>
>> I have a pet hate of some of the Jerry Bruckenheimer produced films. Okay,
>> the fantasy stuff, like Top Gun and the Rock - I think they're excellent
>> entertainment, but when you get into psuedo history like U571(?), Pearl
>> Harbour and Black Hawk Down, it really depresses me how they can be turned
>> into feelgood fests.
>>
>> Actually Armageddon (not based on the Psygnosis game!) really got to me as
>> well, with its patriotic, blue-collar worker slow motion swagger... Yukkk!
>> Like one of those American razor blade commercials where they indicate how
>> successful you will be, and how proud your parents will be of you if you
>> use their brand..... I mean it takes me hours just removing the projectile
>> vomit from the speaker grill on my TV!
>>
>For myself I view these films in the say way as the "Die Hards" and Arnie
>flicks more as an action movie than as a SF one - That way I'm not so often
>disappointed.
Okay, I can grudgingly accept that with Armageddon, :) but the problem
for me is that in the case of actual historic events (Pearl Harbour, the
original British capture of Enigma secrets, and the US aid to Somalia)
people are seeing the mentioned films and assuming (not unreasonably) that
what they've seen is a fair impression of actual events.
A few years back (1994) my friend in France, who is married to a French
girl told me that most of the French thought that D-Day was "when the
Americans invaded". I gathered there were some British and Canadian forces
involved as well, to say nothing of all the Commonwealth/Empire forces
that fought and died too.
Hollywood is great, but it is responsible for a lot of misconceptions
about history.
>>
>> >Plan 9 from Outer Space was of course based on a truly abysmal film. (An
>> >accolade to which the game fully lives up to). OK, I realise that it's
>> >really a movie licence.
>>
>> Hey! You didn't like the film?!!
>Nope - but I think I'm safe from critisism on this one as I don't think
>anyone else did either. :)
Although I though "Glen or Glenda" lacked a certain finesse, I would have
to say that I'm very glad it (P9fOS) was made. :)
....and have you seen the excellent film about Edward D Wood, with old
scissorhands?
John Burns
>
> "John Burns" <jo...@grizo.free-onlineNOJUNK.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:90952529358231...@news.free-online.net...
> > On Mon, 25 Nov 2002 18:36:40 +0100, "István Fábián" wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > "Hidehiko Ogata" <h...@aqu.bekkoame.ne.jp> wrote in message
> > > news:S3.T3.fM2fMx...@aqu.bekkoame.ne.jp...
> > > > John Burns-san wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > I watched the film "Contact" the other night - What a piece of
[SNIP]
> It followed the book very well. Only compressed in the scenes with the end
> contact and the main character. Sagan had extensive dialogue between them
> over the how and why. Message remained the same though in the film
> adaptation. Different medium same message.
Fair enough I can only assume that he made the compromises to accuracy for
commercial viability of the film and to get the main gist of the movie across -
but the end shouldn't justify the means, so it disappoints me, but I'll live.
John Burns
Even the beginning was for some people difficult to fathom to some extent.
> Bladrunner? Now come on, it's filled frame to frame with battle sequences.
> The main protagonist is a new age bounty hunter for lack of a better term.
> And there was extensive CG in Bladerunner. Every scene above 1-2 story view
> was CG mixed with matte painting. Not that it's a bad thing but there you
> have it.
> They did make extensive use of miniatures as well. (very nicely done IMHO)
OK fair points to an extent but I'd say that the use of CG in Bladerunner
different from that inferred previously in that it is used merely as a tool to
convey the atmosphere etc of the film rather than as I took the comment to mean
put there merely to impress by its flashiness. As for Battle sequences come on
now its a Gibsonesque Cyberpunk type film and bears more relationships to some
of the old Cowboy and Indian films than more conventional SF movies - rather
than use the term Battle sequences I'd say Fight scenes. There in fact aren't
that many and they are intrinsic to the (good) story without as I felt was
implied the sole raison d etre for their inclusion being to catch the "Action"
freaks.
John Burns
The "goodness" I was referring to was not of my choosing but a reference to the
moralistic messages which are given in many TV progs/Films which show, or at
least attempt to, that this is some sort of innate characteristic. It is their
judgement which I challenge as being unsupported by the evidence of history not
some arbitrary notions as to that which I find good or bad. In general the
evidence actually points to ourselves making decisions which we believe to be
good for the benefit of ourself or our own group. However, that said this does
not point to innate "goodness" more to selfishness.
Let's face it in just about every episode of Star Trek for example they broke
their First Directive of not interfering - had they complied with this directive
there wouldn't have been much of a series would there.
> the curse of being self aware. For the most part the human race inately
> wants to live -- Good thing Just not always with each other. ;-)
Personally I'd say as a species (as with any) the goal is to survive and
reproduce rather than just live but it's a moot point and no doubt this is what
you meant.
> WW-II was certainly not an endeavor on the Allied side by the more powerful
> and it's goal was certainly not a limited factor. Now the divying up after
> the war was certainly very limited in it's benefit to all scope.
I didn't specifically mean this but it is an example as is the "divvying up"
after WW1 (which in no small way actually contributed to Hitler's rise to power
and WW2).
The answer is given elsewhere in the thread but I don't want to soil my mouth by
repeating the name of this film. ;)
John Burns
>
>
> John Burns wrote:
>
[SNIP]
(Re: Syndicate)
> > And
> > heck, wasn't that final mission a bugger to complete.
>
> Err... Yees, that final mission sure was hard.. yep.. I remember that very
> well, I do, that hard final mission, which I reached.. because ofcourse I
> finished Syndicate like everyone else.. yes, oh, look! Kylie! With almost
> nothing on! Over there!
Where? I can't see her...
Don't tell me this was some subtle ploy to change the subject?
BTW When does Kylie ever have much clothing on?
John Burns
> On 26-Nov-02 12:05:08, Joachim Froholt said
> >John Burns wrote:
>
> >> On Sun, 24 Nov 2002 10:38:27 GMT, Joachim Froholt wrote:
> >>
> >> Must admit that despite the earlier critisisms I did quite enjoy it and I
> >> just started to get into Crusade when it finished. :( I suppose it was
> >> always going to be hard being the follow up to such a successful series as
> >> B5 - but now we'll never know.
>
> >Yeah, it's a bit sad. I also started watching it without knowing it would end
> >after the first season, and for a long time I thought TV2 Norway just hadn't
> >bought the rights to the rest of the seasons, but I never really missed it as
> >I missed new episodes of B5 while waiting for new seasons.
>
>
> But its worth remembering that we only had half a series of Crusade to get
> hooked on, and I don't know about you guys, but I certainly wasn't hooked on
> B5 after a dozen episodes - I was merely interested and entertained. It
> wasn't really until Chrysalis that I was really intrigued, and it was the
> second series that really confirmed things. I think the first series was
> mainly about getting to know the set-up, the characters and their
> background, with the odd indication that things were not quite like Star
> Trek.
>
> In the three episodes that followed the cancellation, Crusade was about to
> have some serious plot development with Psi Corp etc kicking into the
> storyline, so I feel in fairness it can't really be judged against a
> completed B5.
I agree most series go through the initial "bedding in" where the writer(s) find
out what/who works and refining/changing these to suit - B5 of course was no
exception to this.
John Burns
True but Hollywood seems to aim its movies towards its own public and this is
what they either want to, or do, believe. In general I find that the Americans
are very insular in their knowledge base. As an example look at the American
version of The Weakest Link and the lack of knowledge generally displayed for
any question not relating to US history or anything existing outside the USA.
> >>
> >> >Plan 9 from Outer Space was of course based on a truly abysmal film. (An
> >> >accolade to which the game fully lives up to). OK, I realise that it's
> >> >really a movie licence.
> >>
> >> Hey! You didn't like the film?!!
>
> >Nope - but I think I'm safe from critisism on this one as I don't think
> >anyone else did either. :)
>
>
> Although I though "Glen or Glenda" lacked a certain finesse, I would have to
> say that I'm very glad it (P9fOS) was made. :)
>
> ....and have you seen the excellent film about Edward D Wood, with old
> scissorhands?
>
It was on TV not that long ago, wasn't it? I'd seen it before though but I must
admit that Ed Wood never was one of my favourite directors.
Angelo
I've seen the BBC version and the same qualities and lack are there as well
as would probably be the case in any country.
I find some countries extremely revisionist or more to the point outright
omission. Japan is one where nothing of their incursion and events into
China are taught and Germany has a wholesale ban on teaching about
the 3rd Reich. Not so general of insular knowledge base regarding
"Hollywood", most people I know understand the difference between
a documentary and entertainment "liberties" in movies.
Culturally in every country a random sample of the populace will
turn up people with hardly a clue outside their own locale and lives.
Bad thing or good thing it is not an American or Hollywood
invention as implied and quite frankly shows ignorance of a
populace. I have lived both in Japan and Germany as well
the United States and cultural insulation is not a bordered
item. Somalia? Please don't anyone start on Somalia before
they have worked there. For the film aspect I presume the
first poster was reffering to 'Black Hawk Down' which is
a completely factual account of that extremely disturbed
and completely anarchistic region.
Walking a mile in someone's shoes comes to mind if you wish
to discuss that item. Somalia is today's true no man's land
that the world has forgotten.
Jim
Angelo
Well if you never appeal to some higher notion, even beyond, one can
never expect people to attempt it or even find value in it.
> > the curse of being self aware. For the most part the human race inately
> > wants to live -- Good thing Just not always with each other. ;-)
>
> Personally I'd say as a species (as with any) the goal is to survive and
> reproduce rather than just live but it's a moot point and no doubt this is
what
> you meant.
>
> > WW-II was certainly not an endeavor on the Allied side by the more
powerful
> > and it's goal was certainly not a limited factor. Now the divying up
after
> > the war was certainly very limited in it's benefit to all scope.
>
> I didn't specifically mean this but it is an example as is the "divvying
up"
> after WW1 (which in no small way actually contributed to Hitler's rise to
power
> and WW2).
Well I would go much further in that premise stating the after effects of
WW1 guaranteed Hitler's rise to power.
STREET FIGHTER! ;-) heehee SORRY.
*ducks*
Jim
Angelo
> On Tue, 26 Nov 2002 08:58:50 GMT, "Angelo" wrote:
I used battle sequences in the context of the storyline. The film opens
laying out a very straight purpose of the main character and that is
tracking down unauthorized dupes which leads to one confrontation
after another against them collectively and pro one. The ubiquitous
"love interest" line.
The director's cut version carries the storyline a little further
and hints at the protagonist being a dupe as well.
I agree the CG/Matte portions were not there merely as flashiness,
quite the contrary, they hardly intrude on the storyline except to convey
the timeframe in which the events are taking place. I was only referring
to quantity and not quality or detraction because it was used.
Jim
Angelo
It's always the problem or the gift depending on who you talk to
over film medium. In print the writer is dealing with individual
imaginations
and good writers give you a banquet of descriptions to feed that
imagination.
In film they must decide on one point of imagining the descriptions and show
it, extensive use of "overvoice" to try and recapture the print versions
fill for your imagination kills the visual portion or creates a conflict
between
what is shown and what is perceived as the message.
Directors and writers/screen writers have been fighting with this
problem since the beginning of film.
Jim
Joachim Froholt
John Burns wrote:
> On Tue, 26 Nov 2002 12:05:08 GMT, Joachim Froholt wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > John Burns wrote:
> >
> [SNIP]
>
> (Re: Syndicate)
>
> > > And
> > > heck, wasn't that final mission a bugger to complete.
> >
> > Err... Yees, that final mission sure was hard.. yep.. I remember that very
> > well, I do, that hard final mission, which I reached.. because ofcourse I
> > finished Syndicate like everyone else.. yes, oh, look! Kylie! With almost
> > nothing on! Over there!
>
> Where? I can't see her...
Ah, she just left. Too bad.
>
> Don't tell me this was some subtle ploy to change the subject?
>
> BTW When does Kylie ever have much clothing on?
Never, which is why I was fairly safe with this one (I mean, in case you'd
actually seen her :-).
Joachim
Angus Manwaring
Jim, no disrespect intended (to anyone) but at the very least I believe
the time frame of events was compressed to make it a "better" movie.
That would mean it is certainly not a completely factual account.
Angelo
"Angus Manwaring" <angus@angusm_ANTISPEM_.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:959.97T1850T12065549angus@angusm_ANTISPEM_.demon.co.uk...
> On 28-Nov-02 07:45:20, Angelo said
> >"John Burns" <jo...@grizo.free-onlineNOJUNK.co.uk> wrote in message
> >news:90972511962124...@news.free-online.net...
> >> On 27 Nov 2002 15:22:50 +0000, "Angus Manwaring" wrote:
> >>
> > Somalia? Please don't anyone start on Somalia before
> >they have worked there. For the film aspect I presume the
> >first poster was reffering to 'Black Hawk Down' which is
> >a completely factual account of that extremely disturbed
> >and completely anarchistic region.
>
> Jim, no disrespect intended (to anyone) but at the very least I believe
> the time frame of events was compressed to make it a "better" movie.
> That would mean it is certainly not a completely factual account.
>
> All the best,
> Angus Manwaring. (for e-mail remove
ANTISPEM)
I don't know if it made it "better" but they stuck to intrinsic events
and interviews from numerous accounts in theater.
Items compressed would be the mundane and certainly not
anything vital to the facts Ex. (at this street corner a dog took a shit)
Would certainly be left out. ;-)
In the directors DVD expanded version they have numerous
actual footage events shot by reporters, UN personnel, Red Cross,
local populace, Landing force personnel. As well many interviews
with people working there long before the BlackHawk incident.
The liberty portion would be the SGT in the humvee.
He was a concoction of many people that day and certainly in
reality they weren't as calm as this character was.
While I agree whole heartedly that small portion should have
been a singular accurate personality, his interaction in the storyline
did not change any of the factual basis of the film, indeed it added
a personality to multiple characters from the interviews that is
lost in A-Z chronological print.
Jim
John Burns
>
> "John Burns" <jo...@grizo.free-onlineNOJUNK.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:90972511962124...@news.free-online.net...
> > On 27 Nov 2002 15:22:50 +0000, "Angus Manwaring" wrote:
> >
> > > On 26-Nov-02 04:04:24, John Burns said
> > > >On 24 Nov 2002 10:23:22 +0000, "Angus Manwaring" wrote:
[SNIP]
> > > Hollywood is great, but it is responsible for a lot of misconceptions
> about
> > > history.
> >
> > True but Hollywood seems to aim its movies towards its own public and this
> is
> > what they either want to, or do, believe. In general I find that the
> Americans
> > are very insular in their knowledge base. As an example look at the
> American
> > version of The Weakest Link and the lack of knowledge generally displayed
> for
> > any question not relating to US history or anything existing outside the
> USA.
>
> I've seen the BBC version and the same qualities and lack are there as well
> as would probably be the case in any country. I find some countries
I'll agree but with the proviso not to the same degree as the US.
> extremely revisionist or more to the point outright omission. Japan is one
> where nothing of their incursion and events into China are taught and
> Germany has a wholesale ban on teaching about the 3rd Reich. Not so general
Not sure if this is totally correct. I too spent many years in Germany and I
cannot say for definite that they don't have a ban on teaching about the Nazi
years. However, given the general knowledge of the period displayed by younger
Germans I do find it hard to believe that such a ban is in situ. Yes, there are
legal bans on swastikas and other things to do with National Socialism but not I
believe with the teaching of the period and actual events as historical fact.
> of insular knowledge base regarding "Hollywood", most people I know
> understand the difference between a documentary and entertainment
> "liberties" in movies.
That is the problem though many people believe what they see on the goggle
box/in films. Sadly many never bother to find out or even care about the actual
facts. Be honest the entertainment value of a film is not demeaned just because
it wasn't the Americans who did something. Changing history to suit your own
national pride smacks more of jingoism than entertainment.
> Culturally in every country a random sample of the populace will turn up
> people with hardly a clue outside their own locale and lives. Bad thing or
Yes of course it is dangerous to generalise but many American commentators, not
least since 9/11, have made this very point. Rightly or wrongly the perception
in general of those outside the US is I believe akin to mine.
> good thing it is not an American or Hollywood invention as implied and quite
No not an invention but certainly a state of affairs which Hollywood reinforces
and perpetrates by changing history for as you say "entertainment value". About
a year ago IIRC an American posted here that your nation had entered WW2 to sort
out the mess in "our back yard". Despite being a total inaccuracy no doubt he
believed this. Likewise I have seen and heard many Americans make the comment
that it was your nation which won that war. Once again wrong of course. I do not
mean to belittle the contribution made by American servicemen in that war
however the likeliehood is that the Allies would have won (eventually) without
that extra manpower.
As an example of how Hollywood/TV distorts history how many Americans would know
that the P-51 Mustang (one of the most famous of your WW2 fighters) was in fact
a british designed and later, Rolls Royce, engined aircraft (being commissioned
under contract to be built in the US for the RAF with the earlier American
engine being replaced as it wasn't up to much). Not many I presume mainly due to
the fact that it is almost always portreyed in the media as an American plane -
of course maybe you know of a film in which this "small" fact was mentioned. I
mention this not to score points of a we're better than you type but merely to
illustrate what a dis-service such changing of the facts do to those actually
involved in actual events.
As Angus rightly pointed out making films such as U571 is an insult to the
endeavour of those actually involved with getting hold of the Enigma machine. I
doubt whether you would be so dismissive of this re-writing of history were the
situation to be reversed. Let's see the Atomic Bomb was developed just outside
Oxford by a team of British scientists led by John Smith - yeah right no one in
America would complain all accepting that this is only entertainment and as such
legitimate. It is actually rather sad that Hollywood has to steal the glory of
others to appeal to its nationals. Re-hashing a story such as Seven Samurai into
the wild west is legitimate but re-hashing history isn't. The thought does occur
that the only other countries which produce films so often re-writing history
tend to be communist ones. You may call it liberties for the sake of
entertainment but the more discerning amongst us see it for what it is
propagandist.
> frankly shows ignorance of a populace. I have lived both in Japan and
> Germany as well the United States and cultural insulation is not a bordered
> item.
As I said I agree but it is a question of degree.
John Burns
>
> "John Burns" <jo...@grizo.free-onlineNOJUNK.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:90973192714924...@news.free-online.net...
> > On Tue, 26 Nov 2002 09:11:01 GMT, "Angelo" wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > "John Burns" <jo...@grizo.free-onlineNOJUNK.co.uk> wrote in message
> > > news:90953233146236...@news.free-online.net...
> > > > On Sun, 24 Nov 2002 08:05:08 GMT, "Angelo" wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "John Burns" <jo...@grizo.free-onlineNOJUNK.co.uk> wrote in message
> > > > > news:90933212724223...@news.free-online.net...
> > > > > > On 23 Nov 2002 10:15:50 +0000, "Angus Manwaring" wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > On 22-Nov-02 08:54:02, Angelo said
> > > > > > >
[SNIP]
>
> Well if you never appeal to some higher notion, even beyond, one can never
> expect people to attempt it or even find value in it.
Fair enough as far as it goes but what is the point of for instance ascribing to
such as Star Trek's first directive then constantly ignoring/breaking it. Let's
face it what should have happened in most instances was:
Kirk and co arrive at alien planet whereupon they find the local race have a
problem. Heeding the First Directive they promptly bugger off without trying to
impose our own (purely subjective) ideals. End of episode (and probably series).
[SNIP]
> > I didn't specifically mean this but it is an example as is the "divvying
> up"
> > after WW1 (which in no small way actually contributed to Hitler's rise to
> power
> > and WW2).
>
> Well I would go much further in that premise stating the after effects of
> WW1 guaranteed Hitler's rise to power.
True, I was being too kind. IIRC it was the French who were the main instigators
of the punitive reparations though obviously we (the other allies) went along
with them.
> > > > > > > SF TV series that is best reflected in an Amiga game anybody??
> :)
> > > > > > > ********************************************************
> > > > And what was the name of that film with Kylie and Van Damme - so good
> > > > I've erased it from memory. :) It was based on a game.
> > > Ahh!!!! (scrubs eyes trying to remove the bad film image ;-) I believe
> > > it was Captain America or American Fighter something.
> >
> > The answer is given elsewhere in the thread but I don't want to soil my
> > mouth by repeating the name of this film. ;)
>
>
> STREET FIGHTER! ;-) heehee SORRY.
> *ducks*
Ah
h
r
r
g
h!
Says I (collapsing into a writhing heap on the floor)
John Burns
>
> "John Burns" <jo...@grizo.free-onlineNOJUNK.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:90973362988624...@news.free-online.net...
> > On Tue, 26 Nov 2002 08:58:50 GMT, "Angelo" wrote:
>
> Angelo wrote:
> I used battle sequences in the context of the storyline. The film opens
> laying out a very straight purpose of the main character and that is
> tracking down unauthorized dupes which leads to one confrontation after
> another against them collectively and pro one. The ubiquitous "love
> interest" line.
Ok fair enough. Yeah the love bit was not really necessary and she certainly
wasn't a loveable character in the book.
> The director's cut version carries the storyline a little further and hints
> at the protagonist being a dupe as well.
Well Ridley Scott has stated that Harrison Ford's character (Decker) was in fact
a replicant and that the Unicorn dream scene/Origami Unicorn figure at the end
illustrated this. (James Olmos' character could only have known what Decker
dreamt about if his dreams were implanted and by leaving the origami figure he
was telling Decker both what he was and that though he knew he wasn't going to
do anything about it). These scenes were actually in both the original and DC
versions.
On the other hand Philip K Dick categorically stated that this was not the case,
at least not for the Decker in "Do Androids Dream..." In fact the book points
out that one of the reasons why Decker is still on Earth and is unable to travel
off-world is his very genetic imperfection (so hardly a replicant). There is a
"dream scene" in the book though it bears no relation to the film one nor does
it allude to any similar interpretation..
Angelo
Well I am speaking from friends in University there. While the war is
covered.
Hitler and his rise, the third reich are but a footnote.
> > of insular knowledge base regarding "Hollywood", most people I know
> > understand the difference between a documentary and entertainment
> > "liberties" in movies.
>
> That is the problem though many people believe what they see on the goggle
> box/in films. Sadly many never bother to find out or even care about the
actual
> facts. Be honest the entertainment value of a film is not demeaned just
because
> it wasn't the Americans who did something. Changing history to suit your
own
> national pride smacks more of jingoism than entertainment.
Well to be fair though they have strict standards on that as well
and if it is not factual it must be stated so in the films materials.
Which also answers a question you pose below.
> > Culturally in every country a random sample of the populace will turn up
> > people with hardly a clue outside their own locale and lives. Bad thing
or
>
> Yes of course it is dangerous to generalise but many American
commentators, not
> least since 9/11, have made this very point. Rightly or wrongly the
perception
> in general of those outside the US is I believe akin to mine.
Well it's hard to judge without bias. And there are far more underlying
items in the perspective. I know abroad the media constantly is
tallying up "America" and monickers like "The only SuperPower in the world"
I do find it rather odd when I am abroad the question when something is
wrong somewhere is "will America do anything to help?" and this is
regurgitated in the media as well. Be sure there is far more to the
opinion formation than fact alone. Perception is always a fickle thing.
> > good thing it is not an American or Hollywood invention as implied and
quite
>
> No not an invention but certainly a state of affairs which Hollywood
reinforces
> and perpetrates by changing history for as you say "entertainment value".
About
> a year ago IIRC an American posted here that your nation had entered WW2
to sort
> out the mess in "our back yard". Despite being a total inaccuracy no doubt
he
> believed this. Likewise I have seen and heard many Americans make the
comment
> that it was your nation which won that war. Once again wrong of course. I
do not
> mean to belittle the contribution made by American servicemen in that war
> however the likeliehood is that the Allies would have won (eventually)
without
> that extra manpower.
Well to be honest, none could have won. It was a trade-off
The US had enormous raw resources but not the manpower.
The other allies had manpower but not the resources.
Together was the only option of defeating the axis powers.
> As an example of how Hollywood/TV distorts history how many Americans
would know
> that the P-51 Mustang (one of the most famous of your WW2 fighters) was in
fact
> a british designed and later, Rolls Royce, engined aircraft (being
commissioned
> under contract to be built in the US for the RAF with the earlier American
> engine being replaced as it wasn't up to much). Not many I presume mainly
due to
> the fact that it is almost always portreyed in the media as an American
plane -
> of course maybe you know of a film in which this "small" fact was
mentioned. I
> mention this not to score points of a we're better than you type but
merely to
> illustrate what a dis-service such changing of the facts do to those
actually
> involved in actual events.
Well not to detract from the fact the P-51 Mustang was a famous plane
and it was contracted by the British and designed by of all things
German/American designers. I think you may have fallen prey
to what we are discussing "Hollywood". As the P-51 did not make
a substantial contribution since it appeared VERY VERY late in the
war although production runs were made as early as 1940!
It did make quite a hollywood presentation though as a bomber
escort which accounts for most of it's accolades and remembrance.
Very odd the P-51 didn't make impact till 1944.
On the trade-off, it was contracted by the British and built by
North American Aviation Co.
"North American Aviation was under contract to produce training aircraft for
the British. Then Kindelberger somehow, with no real evidence that it could
be done, convinced the British that North American Aviation could design and
build a new fighter that was better than the P-40. The new fighter would fly
faster, higher, farther, be more maneuverable and pack more firepower. The
British took NAA at their word because they had performed well with British
orders for the NAA Harvard trainer. British approval by letter of intent was
given on 10th April 1940. Shortly after, 23 May, a contract order was placed
by the British for the first 320 aircraft designated NA-73.
December 1940 the British Purchasing Comission sent a letter to North
American Aviation stating that the NA-73 airplanes have been given the
official designation of "Mustang".
>
> As Angus rightly pointed out making films such as U571 is an insult to the
> endeavour of those actually involved with getting hold of the Enigma
machine. I
> doubt whether you would be so dismissive of this re-writing of history
were the
> situation to be reversed. Let's see the Atomic Bomb was developed just
outside
> Oxford by a team of British scientists led by John Smith - yeah right no
one in
> America would complain all accepting that this is only entertainment and
as such
> legitimate. It is actually rather sad that Hollywood has to steal the
glory of
> others to appeal to its nationals. Re-hashing a story such as Seven
Samurai into
> the wild west is legitimate but re-hashing history isn't. The thought does
occur
> that the only other countries which produce films so often re-writing
history
> tend to be communist ones. You may call it liberties for the sake of
> entertainment but the more discerning amongst us see it for what it is
> propagandist.
Well I have no apologies nor are any warranted for U571. For those
interested
here is the true story of the Enigma capture by the British Royal Navy.
Snippet
from http://www.lawbuzz.com/tyranny/u571/u571_ch6.htm
Believing their ship had sunk, none of U-110's survivors knew about Balme's
boarding party. (They had been quickly brought below deck on the rescue
ship.) Four hundred men from the British Royal Navy knew, but not one said a
word about U-110's treasure until after the war was over.
Initially towing U-110 back to Iceland, the Royal Navy crews knew their find
would be useless if Germany learned U-110 had been captured, not sunk. Had
they learned the truth, the Germans would have changed their system
immediately and British code breakers would have been unable to make good
use of the sealed June codes David Balme had found.
Whether for that reason, or merely because she took on water, U-110 sank
during the trip to Iceland. The Enigma machine and all supporting data were
turned over to Alan Turing and his team at Bletchley Park, near London.
> > frankly shows ignorance of a populace. I have lived both in Japan and
> > Germany as well the United States and cultural insulation is not a
bordered
> > item.
>
> As I said I agree but it is a question of degree.
>
True. On the film aspect though one major distinction and not a small one
between propaganda film and entertainment.
Films like U571 carry the stamp. "This film is ficticious any similarity
to real persons or events is purely coincidental"
while propaganda film just claims it's true. Not a small difference. ;-)
The degree is whether the populace even bothers to read and know
the difference. Sadly not too often ;-(
Jim
One P.S. note: FOUR HUNDRED ROYAL BRITISH SAILORS KNEW ENIGMA
HAD BEEN CAPTURED AND NOT ONE SAID A WORD.
Now THAT is truly inspiring and I think qualifies for a "good thing" in the
context
of our previous discussion.
Oh jeeze, back on topic....hmmmmm If the ALLIES had an AMIGA they
could have created an Enigma cracking game and the codes would have
been folly in no time!
Seppo Typpo
>
> >
> > "John Burns" <jo...@grizo.free-onlineNOJUNK.co.uk> wrote in message
> > news:90973362988624...@news.free-online.net...
> > > On Tue, 26 Nov 2002 08:58:50 GMT, "Angelo" wrote:
> >
> > Angelo wrote:
>
> > I used battle sequences in the context of the storyline. The film opens
> > laying out a very straight purpose of the main character and that is
> > tracking down unauthorized dupes which leads to one confrontation after
> > another against them collectively and pro one. The ubiquitous "love
> > interest" line.
>
> Ok fair enough. Yeah the love bit was not really necessary and she certainly
> wasn't a loveable character in the book.
>
> > The director's cut version carries the storyline a little further and hints
> > at the protagonist being a dupe as well.
>
> Well Ridley Scott has stated that Harrison Ford's character (Decker) was in fact
> a replicant and that the Unicorn dream scene/Origami Unicorn figure at the end
> illustrated this. (James Olmos' character could only have known what Decker
> dreamt about if his dreams were implanted and by leaving the origami figure he
> was telling Decker both what he was and that though he knew he wasn't going to
> do anything about it). These scenes were actually in both the original and DC
> versions.
I think the unicorn dream Deckard had was only in DC - in the
original film only the origami stuff was present IIRC.
> On the other hand Philip K Dick categorically stated that this was not the case,
> at least not for the Decker in "Do Androids Dream..." In fact the book points
> out that one of the reasons why Decker is still on Earth and is unable to travel
> off-world is his very genetic imperfection (so hardly a replicant). There is a
> "dream scene" in the book though it bears no relation to the film one nor does
> it allude to any similar interpretation..
There were lots of (weird) stuff in the book that did not make to the
movie :-)
My memory might be failing (its been long I have read the book) but
didn't Deckard and the other manhunter test each other in the book
(with the same tester which was used to reveal replicants) because
they had suspicions about their origin - and the test results were
negative?
I personally think the unicorn stuff was just a red herring added by
Mr Scott. At least for me it does not make sense if Deckard is
replicant. - while being a fascinating idea it sort of takes the basic
idea out of the whole story, imho.
Seppo
Joachim Froholt
John Burns wrote:
> > extremely revisionist or more to the point outright omission. Japan is one
> > where nothing of their incursion and events into China are taught and
> > Germany has a wholesale ban on teaching about the 3rd Reich. Not so general
>
> Not sure if this is totally correct. I too spent many years in Germany and I
> cannot say for definite that they don't have a ban on teaching about the Nazi
> years. However, given the general knowledge of the period displayed by younger
> Germans I do find it hard to believe that such a ban is in situ. Yes, there are
> legal bans on swastikas and other things to do with National Socialism but not I
> believe with the teaching of the period and actual events as historical fact.
I'm surprised that no germans have responded to this, but anyway, you're right.
There's no ban on teaching about the period and historical facts, but there are bans
on Nazi symbols and stuff like that. So this ("Germany has a wholesale ban on
teaching about the 3rd Reich") is wrong. Anyway, I can understand why they have such
a ban, though in reality I don't think it does anything. There's plenty of
alternative symbols to use for those interested. And the fact that these symbols are
banned means that games such as Return to Castle Wolfenstein, Hidden and Dangerous
and Amiga stuff like Army Moves and a bunch of old strategy games are illegal to
play in Germany unless they're censored, because they contain nazi symbols. A bit
silly, IMO.
Joachim
Joona I Palaste
(snip stuff about World War II)
> One P.S. note: FOUR HUNDRED ROYAL BRITISH SAILORS KNEW ENIGMA
> HAD BEEN CAPTURED AND NOT ONE SAID A WORD.
> Now THAT is truly inspiring and I think qualifies for a "good thing" in the
> context
> of our previous discussion.
> Oh jeeze, back on topic....hmmmmm If the ALLIES had an AMIGA they
> could have created an Enigma cracking game and the codes would have
> been folly in no time!
Do you know how much technology has evolved since the 1940s? The
Allies would have cracked Enigma even with a Sinclair Spectrum!
--
/-- Joona Palaste (pal...@cc.helsinki.fi) ---------------------------\
| Kingpriest of "The Flying Lemon Tree" G++ FR FW+ M- #108 D+ ADA N+++|
| http://www.helsinki.fi/~palaste W++ B OP+ |
\----------------------------------------- Finland rules! ------------/
"I will never display my bum in public again."
- Homer Simpson
Angus Manwaring
>"John Burns" <jo...@grizo.free-onlineNOJUNK.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:9100349008255...@news.free-online.net...
>> On Thu, 28 Nov 2002 07:45:20 GMT, "Angelo" wrote:
>>
>> >
>Well I have no apologies nor are any warranted for U571.
I disagree. Regardless of the "fairy-land" clause which I believe was
imposed, I still think an apology is due.
Not by you of course. :)
On a lighter note, I also think I'm owed an apology for having seen
Armargeddon. :)
All the best,
Angus Manwaring. (for e-mail remove ANTISPEM)
I need your memories for the Amiga Games Database: A collection of Amiga
Angus Manwaring
>> On Thu, 28 Nov 2002 08:02:30 GMT, "Angelo" wrote:
>>
>I think the unicorn dream Deckard had was only in DC - in the
>original film only the origami stuff was present IIRC.
That's right.
>> On the other hand Philip K Dick categorically stated that this was not the
>> case, at least not for the Decker in "Do Androids Dream..." In fact the
>> book points out that one of the reasons why Decker is still on Earth and is
>> unable to travel off-world is his very genetic imperfection (so hardly a
>> replicant). There is a "dream scene" in the book though it bears no
>> relation to the film one nor does it allude to any similar interpretation..
>There were lots of (weird) stuff in the book that did not make to the
>movie :-)
I personally did not enjoy the book at all, and don't really associate
with the film.
>I personally think the unicorn stuff was just a red herring added by
>Mr Scott. At least for me it does not make sense if Deckard is
>replicant. - while being a fascinating idea it sort of takes the basic
>idea out of the whole story, imho.
Huh?! :-/
But, man, its like crucial to the whole point. :)
....and that door on the lift closing is the real ending, where the
crashing reality hits him.
If you want to talk about taking the basic idea out of the story lets talk
about all that glorious countryside they drove off to outside the city -
or was that outakes from The Shining? :)
You know they were going to call the film "Dangerous Days"? :)
I kid you not, and I suspect our American friends may have been involved.
;)
István Fábián
> You know they were going to call the film "Dangerous Days"? :)
>
> I kid you not, and I suspect our American friends may have been involved.
> ;)
Probably was not a good idea. Anyone seen/remembers "Strange Days"...?
István
John Burns
Yep, I'm surprised no Germans replied too but then again they do have their own
language specific NGs. IIRC the ban only applies to public display in pursuance
of the political ideals of National Socialism and support of the Nazi Party so
for instance War Films can be shown as can documentaries. You can I think
collect the stuff (uniforms, insignia, etc.) but are prohibited from wearing it
in public as this is deemed to advertising the cause, so to speak.
John Burns
> On 01-Dec-02 10:20:26, Seppo Typpo said
> >> On Thu, 28 Nov 2002 08:02:30 GMT, "Angelo" wrote:
> >>
>
> >I think the unicorn dream Deckard had was only in DC - in the
> >original film only the origami stuff was present IIRC.
>
> That's right.
You may be right as it has been a long time since I've seen the original
version.
> >> On the other hand Philip K Dick categorically stated that this was not the
> >> case, at least not for the Decker in "Do Androids Dream..." In fact the
> >> book points out that one of the reasons why Decker is still on Earth and is
> >> unable to travel off-world is his very genetic imperfection (so hardly a
> >> replicant). There is a "dream scene" in the book though it bears no
> >> relation to the film one nor does it allude to any similar interpretation..
>
> >There were lots of (weird) stuff in the book that did not make to the
> >movie :-)
Yeah I agree certainly not one of his better stories.
> I personally did not enjoy the book at all, and don't really associate with
> the film.
>
Well apart from the basic premise they don't really have much in common.
> >I personally think the unicorn stuff was just a red herring added by
> >Mr Scott. At least for me it does not make sense if Deckard is
> >replicant. - while being a fascinating idea it sort of takes the basic
> >idea out of the whole story, imho.
>
> Huh?! :-/
>
> But, man, its like crucial to the whole point. :)
Maybe, but I think the storyline would still stand even if he wasn't since Olmos
could just have been letting Rebecca go as a favour to Decker..
> ....and that door on the lift closing is the real ending, where the crashing
> reality hits him.
>
> If you want to talk about taking the basic idea out of the story lets talk
> about all that glorious countryside they drove off to outside the city - or
> was that outakes from The Shining? :)
> You know they were going to call the film "Dangerous Days"? :)
>
> I kid you not, and I suspect our American friends may have been involved. ;)
Well most films have a working title at some point.
John Burns
>
> "John Burns" <jo...@grizo.free-onlineNOJUNK.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:9100349008255...@news.free-online.net...
> > On Thu, 28 Nov 2002 07:45:20 GMT, "Angelo" wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > "John Burns" <jo...@grizo.free-onlineNOJUNK.co.uk> wrote in message
> > > news:90972511962124...@news.free-online.net...
> > > > On 27 Nov 2002 15:22:50 +0000, "Angus Manwaring" wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > On 26-Nov-02 04:04:24, John Burns said
> > > > > >On 24 Nov 2002 10:23:22 +0000, "Angus Manwaring" wrote:
> >
> > [SNIP]
> Well I am speaking from friends in University there. While the war is
> covered. Hitler and his rise, the third reich are but a footnote.
Fair enough but even a footnote precludes a "total ban".
> > > of insular knowledge base regarding "Hollywood", most people I know
> > > understand the difference between a documentary and entertainment
> > > "liberties" in movies.
> > That is the problem though many people believe what they see on the goggle
> > box/in films. Sadly many never bother to find out or even care about the
> actual
> > facts. Be honest the entertainment value of a film is not demeaned just
> because
> > it wasn't the Americans who did something. Changing history to suit your
> own
> > national pride smacks more of jingoism than entertainment.
>
> Well to be fair though they have strict standards on that as well and if it
> is not factual it must be stated so in the films materials. Which also
> answers a question you pose below.
Oh come on, many American films (especially the made for TV ones) and series
have actually claimed that the events depicted were based on actual events.
X-Files at the beginning did just this and only stopped once they had a large
audience not because they were legally forced to do so (The Executive Producer
admitted this based on truth statement had been a lie). Anyway how many people
actually bother to read the "no similarities to actual events or people" clause
which most films display.
Ah but I only mentioned the manpower. We were already getting the supplies from
the US (as part of a deal) and when the US forces entered the war Germany was
already in trouble from its incursion into Russia and in N Africa and their
U-Boat threat was well diminished so even from a stalemate pov they would have
run out of raw materials well before us.
Well, I recently watched a documentary (most of the interviewees were American
with more than one Ace amongst their number) and I merely re-iterated their
statements. However it was more than just contracted by the UK - the design
specs etc, were closely monitored and driven by the RAF, so in this respect it
was their design (if something was proposed which they didn't like it didn't get
included). It wasn't as though they tendered for designs. Yes initially the
Mustang did little (due to its lack of engine power) but once the RR one was
added it became the plane of choice. As for bomber escort bear in mind that it
was the only fighter that could make the trip from UK to Berlin and still have
adequate left to strafe any ground targets on the way back. It was only when
this happened that the American daylight raids did not result in very heavy loss
of bombers and crews (a significant fact in itself). BTW - statistic wise more
Mustangs were lost in ground attack than in air to air combat which sort of
proves my point about the media directing attitudes.
> "North American Aviation was under contract to produce training aircraft for
> the British. Then Kindelberger somehow, with no real evidence that it could
> be done, convinced the British that North American Aviation could design and
> build a new fighter that was better than the P-40. The new fighter would fly
> faster, higher, farther, be more maneuverable and pack more firepower. The
Except it didn't - it was slow, had a low op ceiliing couldn't do a power dive -
at least not till the British fitted the RR merlin engine which the US adopted
too. This too was stated in the programme by those who had actually flown both
versions.
Sounds like evasion of the question. [see below]
> here is the true story of the Enigma capture by the British Royal Navy.
> Snippet
[SNIP]
We know the true story. That wasn't the issue. It was why Hollywood feels it has
to change the facts to make Americans look like it was their nationals who were
responsible.
> > > frankly shows ignorance of a populace. I have lived both in Japan and
> > > Germany as well the United States and cultural insulation is not a
> bordered
> > > item.
> >
> > As I said I agree but it is a question of degree.
> >
>
> True. On the film aspect though one major distinction and not a small one
> between propaganda film and entertainment. Films like U571 carry the stamp.
> "This film is ficticious any similarity to real persons or events is purely
> coincidental" while propaganda film just claims it's true. Not a small
> difference. ;-) The degree is whether the populace even bothers to read and
> know the difference. Sadly not too often ;-(
True but since you concede "not too often", in this regard they have the same
effect whether that was the intention or not.
> One P.S. note: FOUR HUNDRED ROYAL BRITISH SAILORS KNEW ENIGMA HAD BEEN
> CAPTURED AND NOT ONE SAID A WORD. Now THAT is truly inspiring and I think
> qualifies for a "good thing" in the context
> of our previous discussion.
Ah well it was a War I doubt it would happen in peacetime.
> Oh jeeze, back on topic....hmmmmm If the ALLIES had an AMIGA they could have
> created an Enigma cracking game and the codes would have been folly in no
> time!
And Alan Turing would no doubt have been renowned as greater than the mighty Sid
Meier. :)
Angelo
"Joona I Palaste" <pal...@cc.helsinki.fi> wrote in message
news:asdpsb$ip1$1...@oravannahka.helsinki.fi...
> Angelo <james...@cox.net> scribbled the following:
>
> (snip stuff about World War II)
>
> > One P.S. note: FOUR HUNDRED ROYAL BRITISH SAILORS KNEW ENIGMA
> > HAD BEEN CAPTURED AND NOT ONE SAID A WORD.
> > Now THAT is truly inspiring and I think qualifies for a "good thing" in
the
> > context
> > of our previous discussion.
>
> > Oh jeeze, back on topic....hmmmmm If the ALLIES had an AMIGA they
> > could have created an Enigma cracking game and the codes would have
> > been folly in no time!
>
> Do you know how much technology has evolved since the 1940s? The
> Allies would have cracked Enigma even with a Sinclair Spectrum!
>
> --
> /-- Joona Palaste (pal...@cc.helsinki.fi) ---------------------------\
Ahhhh, fond memories of my Speccy! Still have one in the attic.
PLEASE! enough with the memories, you'll get me in trouble with
the wife if I start bringing the stuff out of hiding. ;-)
Jim
Angelo
> On 01-Dec-02 08:43:12, Angelo said
> >"John Burns" <jo...@grizo.free-onlineNOJUNK.co.uk> wrote in message
> >news:9100349008255...@news.free-online.net...
> >> On Thu, 28 Nov 2002 07:45:20 GMT, "Angelo" wrote:
> >>
> >> >
>
> >Well I have no apologies nor are any warranted for U571.
>
> I disagree. Regardless of the "fairy-land" clause which I believe was
> imposed, I still think an apology is due.
>
> Not by you of course. :)
>
> On a lighter note, I also think I'm owed an apology for having seen
> Armargeddon. :)
>
>
> All the best,
> Angus Manwaring. (for e-mail remove
ANTISPEM)
Well that's what I meant. That an appology couldn't be made properly
for the "liberty" they took in revising the Enigma capture.
At least the film did have the label of fiction on it.
Armageddon? Come on, it was a fun -what-if- movie born out
of actual space studies on what to do if such a problem existed
in the future (and we knew ahead of time)
You only have to look at how so much science fiction has become
science fact to appreciate it. While the crew assembled was certainly
very far fetched, the principles displayed are all working models.
Ahhh rollup color displays, now that's cool. ;-)
Minority report anyone? heehee
Jim
Angelo
"István Fábián" <as...@where.com> wrote in message
news:8yzG9.37544$ql3.9241@fe03...
Was that the one with Arnold Schwarzenegger and the devil?
Jim
István Fábián
"Angelo" <james...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:1dFG9.34136$wS.27...@news1.west.cox.net...
"Strange Days" is actually a quite weird movie, something like "Till the End
of Time" and "Blade Runner" mixed (not always well), by Cameron's ex-wife
Kathryn Bigelow, also responsible for Point Break.
There is not much of a story, but it certainly have a feeling and I guess
quite interesting to watch a bit drunken, especially the last few scenes,
like a huge acid party (but the movie was made before those come to play)
István
Hidehiko Ogata
> I've seen the BBC version and the same qualities and lack are there as well
> as would probably be the case in any country.
> I find some countries extremely revisionist or more to the point outright
> omission. Japan is one where nothing of their incursion and events into
> China are taught and <snip>
Huh? It's taught all right... I'd say it's taught _inadequately_,
the level of which highly depends on teachers and textbooks.
I'd be the first to admit the sad state of our educational system, or
our society's ineptitude to embrace our follies for that matter, but
please.
--
// }{idehiko ()gata "War is over, if you want it"
\X/ Amiga since '86 - John Lennon
John Burns
> Angelo-san wrote:
>
> > I've seen the BBC version and the same qualities and lack are there as well
> > as would probably be the case in any country.
> > I find some countries extremely revisionist or more to the point outright
> > omission. Japan is one where nothing of their incursion and events into
> > China are taught and <snip>
>
> Huh? It's taught all right... I'd say it's taught _inadequately_, the level
> of which highly depends on teachers and textbooks.
>
> I'd be the first to admit the sad state of our educational system, or our
> society's ineptitude to embrace our follies for that matter, but please.
Hmmm, he was wrong about Germany and now it seems he was wrong about Japan so it
hardly done his argument much good (despite the claim that he lived in these
places as reason for his "knowledge").
Angelo
No apologies for something you individually didn't create. I gather
it is no different than the previous history in the US
education system barring the teaching of slavery
or sugar coating the events..
Not until the 1960's were the veils lifted on our
sordid past. It was known, just not taught.
"Learn from history's mistakes or be damned to repeat them"
Jim
Angelo
Your reading a bit much into his reply now aren't you?
Japan's incursion into China is taught as a military campaign.
It is not taught as the rape of a neighbouring country.
Nanking? Live human artillery testing? Biochemical testing on
the populace? These are NOT taught in Japan.
You also read more than was responded on Germany.
The War is covered yes. The concentration camps
and human testing/gassing is not. Only a footnote which
is incredulous to the murder of over 6 million Jews.
The US dragged it's skeletons out of the closet starting
in the 1960's about slavery. I have yet to see Germany and Japan do
the same on the atrocities committed during WW-II.
And for all our ribbing at "Hollywood" where else would
stories of national disgrace such as ROOTS get primetime
air? Certainly no propaganda or jingoism value there.
Pray tell if it is taught as it happened, how the German Defense
Minister could get away with the comments she made and a populace
churning in time with the music. Fired later but no report from the
populace
on it and she was fired over "foreign political reasons"
Or that since the re-unification of Germany there has been a constant
push by old socialist die-hards to a militant return echoed by
increasing groups of Nazi belief and revising the events
surrounding Hitler. The silent masses have a virtual timebomb
waiting to go off over there right now.
"Learn from the mistakes of history lest you be damned to repeat them"
Jim
Joachim Froholt
Angelo wrote:
What?!? Ofcourse it is!! Don't be ridiculous. Okay, you say you've lived in
Germany, but I've been there too, and I've visited the camps and the related
museums, and the germans are certainly not trying to hide what happened. Your
claim that they're doing so is offensive and sad.
> Only a footnote which
> is incredulous to the murder of over 6 million Jews.
>
> The US dragged it's skeletons out of the closet starting
> in the 1960's about slavery. I have yet to see Germany and Japan do
> the same on the atrocities committed during WW-II.
Maybe you just haven't looked. I've seen many German documentaries and movies
about WW2 and the stuff that happened during that time. It is true that there
are many older people who don't want to talk about it, but can you really blame
them? Few of those who comment on slavery in the US were actually alive when it
was happening. People feel guilty because they feel they should have known about
these atrocities (most of them didn't know. even Hitler's personal secretary
didn't know.), and when you feel guilty about something, it's not always easy to
talk about it.
>
> And for all our ribbing at "Hollywood" where else would
> stories of national disgrace such as ROOTS get primetime
> air? Certainly no propaganda or jingoism value there.
This is not unique for Hollywood, though I don't want to get into this
discussion, the reason I'm responding is your comments about Germany.
>
> Pray tell if it is taught as it happened, how the German Defense
> Minister could get away with the comments she made and a populace
> churning in time with the music. Fired later but no report from the
> populace
> on it and she was fired over "foreign political reasons"
Sorry, I don't quite follow you. What are you talking about again?
>
> Or that since the re-unification of Germany there has been a constant
> push by old socialist die-hards to a militant return echoed by
> increasing groups of Nazi belief and revising the events
> surrounding Hitler. The silent masses have a virtual timebomb
> waiting to go off over there right now.
I've heard you have plenty of people that share these belief over in your
country. I've seen interviews with a couple of them, even.. people with southern
accents and confederation flags on the wall behind them telling us how the
communists and jews work together against the free world. Maybe you should sort
out your own back yard before you complain about others?
Joachim
Hidehiko Ogata
> "Strange Days" is actually a quite weird movie, something like "Till the End
> of Time" and "Blade Runner" mixed (not always well), by Cameron's ex-wife
> Kathryn Bigelow, also responsible for Point Break.
How many ex-wives does Cameron have anyway? (I guess he can afford to
be a jerk, heh 8)
Angelo
"Joachim Froholt" <jfro...@c2i.net> wrote in message
news:3DECA405...@c2i.net...
Read again! I said it is not TAUGHT, you know, in Elementary history
lessons to that degree. It IS a footnote. YOU have to go out to the
sites or museums for that history lesson.
> > Only a footnote which
> > is incredulous to the murder of over 6 million Jews.
> >
> > The US dragged it's skeletons out of the closet starting
> > in the 1960's about slavery. I have yet to see Germany and Japan do
> > the same on the atrocities committed during WW-II.
>
> Maybe you just haven't looked. I've seen many German documentaries and
movies
> about WW2 and the stuff that happened during that time. It is true that
there
> are many older people who don't want to talk about it, but can you really
blame
> them? Few of those who comment on slavery in the US were actually alive
when it
> was happening. People feel guilty because they feel they should have known
about
> these atrocities (most of them didn't know. even Hitler's personal
secretary
> didn't know.), and when you feel guilty about something, it's not always
easy to
> talk about it.
Sorry, but the above is reeling with bullshit. Jews rounded up from town to
town.
Country WIDE dehuminsation of the race. Hitler's OWN speeches to the
country.
The claim of "we didn't know" is utter unadulterated BULLSHIT.
Being honest and claiming they were afraid to do anything about it
under the SS regime would suffice. But PLEASE, claiming in the face
of government sponsored, radio carried, newspaper prolifererated, witnessed
round ups that "we didn't know" is the ONLY thing offensive and sad about
your reply!
> >
> > And for all our ribbing at "Hollywood" where else would
> > stories of national disgrace such as ROOTS get primetime
> > air? Certainly no propaganda or jingoism value there.
>
> This is not unique for Hollywood, though I don't want to get into this
> discussion, the reason I'm responding is your comments about Germany.
>
> >
> > Pray tell if it is taught as it happened, how the German Defense
> > Minister could get away with the comments she made and a populace
> > churning in time with the music. Fired later but no report from the
> > populace
> > on it and she was fired over "foreign political reasons"
>
> Sorry, I don't quite follow you. What are you talking about again?
>
The recent elections there. Come now, ok I'll give you benefit of the
doubt, are you of voting age? The German Defense Minister equated
the US president with Adolf Hitler over the war on terrorism!
> >
> > Or that since the re-unification of Germany there has been a constant
> > push by old socialist die-hards to a militant return echoed by
> > increasing groups of Nazi belief and revising the events
> > surrounding Hitler. The silent masses have a virtual timebomb
> > waiting to go off over there right now.
>
> I've heard you have plenty of people that share these belief over in your
> country. I've seen interviews with a couple of them, even.. people with
southern
> accents and confederation flags on the wall behind them telling us how the
> communists and jews work together against the free world. Maybe you should
sort
> out your own back yard before you complain about others?
>
> Joachim
True, true. One item though. We do have free speech and they can say
what they like. But try and do what you like and the "speech" protection
is gone.
History does reflect one fact though in your observation and comparison.
The US has free speech and the Nazi groups can speak freely but have
no freedom to do against without full repercussion. Even all speech is
not protected if it incites to harm. the biggest misunderstood item
of free speech here to anyone not living here. The assumption is
always that we have free speech so people must be able to say
literally "anything" they want. Not true in any sense.
Germany placed them in power and the world at war and nearly
succeeded in a full genocide....
Jim
Joachim Froholt
Angelo wrote:
> "Joachim Froholt" <jfro...@c2i.net> wrote in message
> > > Only a footnote which
Well.
Neither I nor you were actually there at the time, that much I do know. So the
things that we "know" about these things are based on other people's knowledge,
and the fact that we have access to information that the people who lived back
then didn't have access to. Neither of us can know for sure that we're correct
in our assumptions about what the general public knew about these things. I base
my knowledge on interviews (*), documentaries and books. For all I know,
everyone could be lying.
But okay. Obviously, the general public knew about the discrimination and
segregation that happened before the war. Remember that the jews were an alien
element in most European countries and that the natives usually didn't like them
much. Obviously, Hitler's propaganda did not help either, so the average german
was probably just relieved when the jews were moved into separate areas.
Everyone knew about this.
But then the war came. There were no concentration camps before the war, and it
was not before the end of 1941 (there were no "final solution" before that year)
that the first real concentration camps were buildt. The camps they had before
were more like today's refugee camps, and before that again, they had enclosed
areas of certain cities where the jews lived. Now, this was a few years into the
war, and day to day life was getting difficult for the average german. They had
enough things to worry about as it were, and the final solution was not an
official, open policy, unlike the segregation that happened earlier. Very few
(not even the jews) knew about the death camps. Those who knew the jews were
being moved thought they were moved to labour camts and stuff like this. Hitler
and his administration obviously did not _want_ people to know, and they had
their ways to make sure people didn't learn about it too, as you can probably
imagine (there were no freedom of speech, and people who complained were taken
away too). The legal press was under total control by the state and the people
involved in illegal newspapers and radio stations (what? no Internet?) were
being hunted down by the Gestapo and their likes.
It might sound amazing to people today, but the average german really didn't
know what happened in Auschwitz and places like that. They had enough to worry
about at that time, and the people who wanted to tell them were effectively
silenced.
>
> > >
> > > And for all our ribbing at "Hollywood" where else would
> > > stories of national disgrace such as ROOTS get primetime
> > > air? Certainly no propaganda or jingoism value there.
> >
> > This is not unique for Hollywood, though I don't want to get into this
> > discussion, the reason I'm responding is your comments about Germany.
> >
> > >
> > > Pray tell if it is taught as it happened, how the German Defense
> > > Minister could get away with the comments she made and a populace
> > > churning in time with the music. Fired later but no report from the
> > > populace
> > > on it and she was fired over "foreign political reasons"
> >
> > Sorry, I don't quite follow you. What are you talking about again?
> >
>
> The recent elections there. Come now, ok I'll give you benefit of the
> doubt, are you of voting age?
I'm thirteen this christmas. I don't even know what I'm doing in this newsgroup,
I've never seen a real Amiga in my entire life. They had computers back in the
eighties, you say? An old system to me is a Playstation! :-/
> The German Defense Minister equated
> the US president with Adolf Hitler over the war on terrorism!
Okay, I heard about that. I did not know this was what you refered to ("the
comments she made"). Obviously, she went too far in her characteristics of that
man.
Argh, I'm trying really hard to constrain myself here. Must.. not.. say.. what..
I.. mean.. about.. nghhh!
>
> > >
> > > Or that since the re-unification of Germany there has been a constant
> > > push by old socialist die-hards to a militant return echoed by
> > > increasing groups of Nazi belief and revising the events
> > > surrounding Hitler. The silent masses have a virtual timebomb
> > > waiting to go off over there right now.
> >
> > I've heard you have plenty of people that share these belief over in your
> > country. I've seen interviews with a couple of them, even.. people with
> southern
> > accents and confederation flags on the wall behind them telling us how the
> > communists and jews work together against the free world. Maybe you should
> sort
> > out your own back yard before you complain about others?
> >
> > Joachim
>
> True, true. One item though. We do have free speech and they can say
> what they like. But try and do what you like and the "speech" protection
> is gone.
Sure. I did not say that you should restrict their freedom in any way.
>
> History does reflect one fact though in your observation and comparison.
> The US has free speech and the Nazi groups can speak freely but have
> no freedom to do against without full repercussion. Even all speech is
> not protected if it incites to harm. the biggest misunderstood item
> of free speech here to anyone not living here. The assumption is
> always that we have free speech so people must be able to say
> literally "anything" they want. Not true in any sense.
I am well used to free speech and the laws surrounding it. You might be
surprised to learn that we've got it in Europe too. :-)
> Germany placed them in power and the world at war and nearly
> succeeded in a full genocide....
This is true. They fooled Germany like they fooled everyone else at the time.
* If you're really interested, check out the recent interview with Hitler's
personal secretary, Traudl Junge. You should be able to catch it on tv or the
movies ( http://www.hollywood.com/movies/detail/movie/1614904 ). It's a very
good program, well worth watching.
Joachim
Hidehiko Ogata
> "John Burns" <jo...@grizo.free-onlineNOJUNK.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:91021413034426...@news.free-online.net...
> > On Mon, 2 Dec 2002 20:00:37 +0000 (UTC), "Hidehiko Ogata" wrote:
> >
> > > Angelo-san wrote:
> > >
> > > > I've seen the BBC version and the same qualities and lack are there as well
> > > > as would probably be the case in any country.
> > > > I find some countries extremely revisionist or more to the point outright
> > > > omission. Japan is one where nothing of their incursion and events into
> > > > China are taught and <snip>
> > >
> > > Huh? It's taught all right... I'd say it's taught _inadequately_, the level
> > > of which highly depends on teachers and textbooks.
> > >
> > > I'd be the first to admit the sad state of our educational system, or our
> > > society's ineptitude to embrace our follies for that matter, but please.
> >
> > Hmmm, he was wrong about Germany and now it seems he was wrong about Japan so it
> > hardly done his argument much good (despite the claim that he lived in these
> > places as reason for his "knowledge").
>
> Your reading a bit much into his reply now aren't you?
> Japan's incursion into China is taught as a military campaign.
Now you are contradicting yourself. Is it taught or is it not? How many
samples have you taken anyway?
There are sadly warped accounts by right-wing zealots, and their
repeated attempts to corrupt our educational system yes; and our
government's neglect of the issues has been nothing but atrocious yes.
Then there are men with integrity like the late Ienaga who fought
against the system for more than thirty years, to pry open the heavy
door of the textbook review board (a censorship system really), to
provide more even-handed, better education for future generations.
It's a slow and winding struggle, and we should be doing much better
than this... but we *are* doing it. So please refrain from such a
blanket dismission, especially now, with respect for Ienaga who has
just passed away.
Angelo
>
>
> Angelo wrote:
> > History does reflect one fact though in your observation and comparison.
> > The US has free speech and the Nazi groups can speak freely but have
> > no freedom to do against without full repercussion. Even all speech is
> > not protected if it incites to harm. the biggest misunderstood item
> > of free speech here to anyone not living here. The assumption is
> > always that we have free speech so people must be able to say
> > literally "anything" they want. Not true in any sense.
>
> I am well used to free speech and the laws surrounding it. You might be
> surprised to learn that we've got it in Europe too. :-)
Heehee, not surprised in the least. You see it was the Allies after the war
creating a democratic post war government in Germany that provided
it. ;-) East Germany sadly fell to Stalin. A BIG FUCKING MISTAKE
by the Allies. A shame we will carry for a long time, turning our backs
on them effectively.
> > Germany placed them in power and the world at war and nearly
> > succeeded in a full genocide....
>
> This is true. They fooled Germany like they fooled everyone else at the
time.
>
> * If you're really interested, check out the recent interview with
Hitler's
> personal secretary, Traudl Junge. You should be able to catch it on tv or
the
> movies ( http://www.hollywood.com/movies/detail/movie/1614904 ). It's a
very
> good program, well worth watching.
>
> Joachim
I checked out the bio on her. From her own statements however it appears
she was VERY aware of what was going on. Contrary to the impression
given on her.
Jim
Angelo
Point taken. I guess I can blame myself in situ (the Allies)
There was an opportunity to prevent such future problems
in Japan during the rebuilding and re-construction of a national
government there after WW-II, while much of it clearly
was successful and Japan rebounded greatly, much of the
"old school" remained chained to the country.
Jim
Sebastian Weimer
Angelo wrote:
>
> "Joachim Froholt" <jfro...@c2i.net> wrote in message
> > > You also read more than was responded on Germany.
> > > The War is covered yes. The concentration camps
> > > and human testing/gassing is not.
> >
> > What?!? Ofcourse it is!! Don't be ridiculous. Okay, you say you've lived
> in
> > Germany, but I've been there too, and I've visited the camps and the
> related
> > museums, and the germans are certainly not trying to hide what happened.
> Your
> > claim that they're doing so is offensive and sad.
>
> Read again! I said it is not TAUGHT, you know, in Elementary history
> lessons to that degree. It IS a footnote. YOU have to go out to the
> sites or museums for that history lesson.
That is not true, at least not at the school i attended and the schools
of all
people I talked to.
> The recent elections there. Come now, ok I'll give you benefit of the
> doubt, are you of voting age? The German Defense Minister equated
> the US president with Adolf Hitler over the war on terrorism!
You are talking about Herta Daeubler-Gmelin and she was
minister of justice. She has not been fired (I think she should have
been immediately).
She retreated after the (Federal Diet) voting.
The difference is not so importent but you maybe should check your infos
about
that and the german syllabus of instruction for History.
Sebastian "me bad english" Weimer
Joachim Froholt
Angelo wrote:
> "Joachim Froholt" <jfro...@c2i.net> wrote in message
> news:3DEDEFFE...@c2i.net...
> >
> >
> > Angelo wrote:
> > > History does reflect one fact though in your observation and comparison.
> > > The US has free speech and the Nazi groups can speak freely but have
> > > no freedom to do against without full repercussion. Even all speech is
> > > not protected if it incites to harm. the biggest misunderstood item
> > > of free speech here to anyone not living here. The assumption is
> > > always that we have free speech so people must be able to say
> > > literally "anything" they want. Not true in any sense.
> >
> > I am well used to free speech and the laws surrounding it. You might be
> > surprised to learn that we've got it in Europe too. :-)
>
> Heehee, not surprised in the least. You see it was the Allies after the war
> creating a democratic post war government in Germany that provided
> it. ;-)
Europe is more than Germany, you know. :-) We've had a democracy in this country
since our constitution was created in 1814, though it was limited in the years
we were in a union with another country, and ofcourse severely limited in the
years 1940-1945. I don't know so much about the german democracy before WW2, but
they had elections and all, it was Hitler who changed that after the people
elected him.
> East Germany sadly fell to Stalin. A BIG FUCKING MISTAKE
> by the Allies.
Ofcourse, now we can say this when we see what happened later on, but remember
that without the Soviet effort and resistance, the allies would probably not
have won the war.
> A shame we will carry for a long time, turning our backs
> on them effectively.
I don't know. What else were there to do?
>
> > > Germany placed them in power and the world at war and nearly
> > > succeeded in a full genocide....
> >
> > This is true. They fooled Germany like they fooled everyone else at the
> time.
> >
> > * If you're really interested, check out the recent interview with
> Hitler's
> > personal secretary, Traudl Junge. You should be able to catch it on tv or
> the
> > movies ( http://www.hollywood.com/movies/detail/movie/1614904 ). It's a
> very
> > good program, well worth watching.
> >
> > Joachim
>
> I checked out the bio on her. From her own statements however it appears
> she was VERY aware of what was going on. Contrary to the impression
> given on her.
The bio I linked to somehow didn't give the same impression as the actual
interview (should have known better than to link to a document on a site called
"hollywood" :-). She said she didn't know, and that it was only after the war
she understood what had happened. When she learned about the stuff that she
thought she should have known about, she became overwhelmed with guilt. It was
only after the interview that she began to forgive herself for being so naive
back then.
Joachim
Angus Manwaring
>> surprised to learn that we've got it in Europe too. :-)
>Heehee, not surprised in the least. You see it was the Allies after the war
>creating a democratic post war government in Germany that provided
>it. ;-) East Germany sadly fell to Stalin. A BIG F***ING MISTAKE
>by the Allies.
By the Americans - Churchill was all for holding the Soviets back, but (I
think) America interpreted this as British empire building, and so paid
the price for the next forty or fifty years.
All the best,
Angus Manwaring. (for e-mail remove ANTISPEM)
I need your memories for the Amiga Games Database: A collection of Amiga
Hidehiko Ogata
> Point taken.
Thank you.
> I guess I can blame myself in situ (the Allies)
> There was an opportunity to prevent such future problems
> in Japan during the rebuilding and re-construction of a national
> government there after WW-II, while much of it clearly
> was successful and Japan rebounded greatly, much of the
> "old school" remained chained to the country.
Yeah, it's all your fault! :)
Seriously, I think you've nailed it there; you guys got smooth way into
the occupation, we got to keep our Big Man... there was an evil seed of
irresponsibility sown. It may have helped in the re-construction era,
but today it's backfiring big time... pollution cases, the "clearance
sale" of AIDS-infected blood, the BSD outbreak, the whole bubble economy
mess... you name it, it's always the same: small guys get the axe, while
old fossils get away with it, often keep running the show, even! It's a
truly wretched country in this regard (-_-).
John Burns
>
> "Joachim Froholt" <jfro...@c2i.net> wrote in message
> news:3DECA405...@c2i.net...
> >
> >
> > Angelo wrote:
> >
> > > "John Burns" <jo...@grizo.free-onlineNOJUNK.co.uk> wrote in message
> > > news:91021413034426...@news.free-online.net...
> > > > On Mon, 2 Dec 2002 20:00:37 +0000 (UTC), "Hidehiko Ogata" wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Angelo-san wrote:
> > > > >
> > > You also read more than was responded on Germany.
> > > The War is covered yes. The concentration camps
> > > and human testing/gassing is not.
> >
> > What?!? Ofcourse it is!! Don't be ridiculous. Okay, you say you've lived
> in
> > Germany, but I've been there too, and I've visited the camps and the
> related
> > museums, and the germans are certainly not trying to hide what happened.
> Your
> > claim that they're doing so is offensive and sad.
>
> Read again! I said it is not TAUGHT, you know, in Elementary history lessons
> to that degree. It IS a footnote. YOU have to go out to the sites or museums
> for that history lesson.
Now I know you are talking utter rubbish. One of the first places I was
stationed in Germany was in the Nato Camp at Hohne (1977-80). This camp was
previously the garrison for Belsen Concentration Camp which is a couple of
hundred yards away and I can testify that during my stay there I seen on more
than one occasion parties of school children being taken to visit. So either
stop lying or get your facts straight before making an arse of yourself in
public.
> Germany placed them in power and the world at war and nearly succeeded in a
> full genocide....
As did your country with the Native Americans. You know those people who until
only a few years ago were almost always portrayed by Hollywood as "Savages".