Wow this place is pathetic......
Terminator
Sad there are no amiga posts, no bravado about how Amiga was going to make a huge return "real soon now" or even just something.
It's a pity that greed and corruption ruined Commodore and killed a great and revolutionary product. I guess it really is dead.
jon
Clocky
> I quit wasting my time with this group when idiots like Terry
> Palfrey, unquestionably one of the biggest jackasses to hit trolldom
> tried to make this group his personal domain.
>
> Sad there are no amiga posts, no bravado about how Amiga was going to
> make a huge return "real soon now" or even just something.
It's gonna be BIG! Just two more weeks!
> It's a pity that greed and corruption ruined Commodore and killed a
> great and revolutionary product. I guess it really is dead.
There are still users out there, mostly for nostalgia which is a perfectly
legitimate use for an Amiga. There are also a few that have wasted good
money on new hardware in recent years but there aren't enough of them to
sustain any kind of meaningful development.
Gary Beeton
> I quit wasting my time with this group when idiots like Terry Palfrey, unquestionably one of the biggest jackasses to hit trolldom tried to make this group his personal domain.
Enormous jackass yes, but you shouldn't overlook the joy that TerryTroll
brought to this group through unintended humour.
> Sad there are no amiga posts, no bravado about how Amiga was going to make a huge return "real soon now" or even just something.
Like Clocky said, just two more weeks (TM)...
> It's a pity that greed and corruption ruined Commodore and killed a great and revolutionary product. I guess it really is dead.
It's also a pity that trolls like Terry couldn't let it die with a
little dignity.
--
Gary Beeton
dsgrace
> a great and revolutionary product. I guess it really is dead.
>
brought out the A500, a keyboard-case, brick power supply,
floppy-only, 1Meg RAM max, low-res display system that
essentially signaled the computer industry that the Commodore
Amiga would not be involved in the future except as a kiddie toy.
You can still find some mentions of the old Amiga, the A1000 and
the people that were pushing its technology as real computer.
You'd find their contributions on the Fish disks--all the GNU
software ported to Amiga long before Linux--and at the early
BADGE demo contests (the first of what would decades later
become YouTube) and in the first demo of the World Wide Web,
where Berners-Lee sat at a computer at CERN in France and
mouse-clicked to retrieve and display a Postscript document
from a server at SLAC in Palo Alto. This was called the 'killer
app' of that demo, when the audience could see just what these
web hyperlinks could accomplish.
These were the A1000 people, they used WSHell and ARexx
and AmigaTeX and VLT and the CLI and maybe Emacs or
Vim and the Post postscript interpreter and the machines all
had a StarBoard II on the side to give an extra 2Mb RAM,
something CBM never figured out. It was 1988.
Here's an interview from 2008 with one of those people:
http://www.tug.org/interviews/interview-files/tom-rokicki.html
and here's the WWW demo (a Friday the 13th!):
http://www.slac.stanford.edu/history/earlyweb/history.shtml
--many of the HEP preprints that originated from SLAC were done
on Amigas, they had a bunch of them; arxiv.org is now the current
main repository if you want to see how it has evolved.
But these were people using the Amiga-as-computer and were for
the most part ignored by CBM. Many of these people went on to
work on the Linux and FreeBSD kernels, DragonFlyBSD, to get
PhDs, stuff like that. The CBM engineers seemed to have
collectively dropped out of the computer industry altogether.
It was in 1992 that someone on BIX noted need for a PD Amiga
style OS, that Tripos was open source (bcpl, but hey it worked for
the Alto and for the Bell Labs people who developed Unix) and a
good base to begin from. The CBM people didn't care, they were
all going to get rich off the set-top boxes and kiosk systems. And
game machines with writable floppies.
anamigan
> "Terminator" <Termi...@thefuture.net> wrote in message
>> It's a pity that greed and corruption ruined Commodore and killed
>> a great and revolutionary product. I guess it really is dead.
> Commodore gave up on the Amiga-as-computer in 1988 when they
> brought out the A500, a keyboard-case, brick power supply,
> floppy-only, 1Meg RAM max, low-res display system that
> essentially signaled the computer industry that the Commodore
> Amiga would not be involved in the future except as a kiddie toy.
The year was 87, it was 512K RAM base, capable of eight in total.
Right on top of that was the A2000 with all those slots that became
the home, for many years, of the NewTek Video Toaster - you know
the cable company wet dream. The A500 had that side slot that
allowed many many add ons to be connected to it not in the least
hard drives like the A590 but also the combo GVP CPU/RAM/HD's that
you seem totally unaware of. The A500 was a budget model for the
masses.
> You can still find some mentions of the old Amiga, the A1000 and
> the people that were pushing its technology as real computer.
> You'd find their contributions on the Fish disks--all the GNU
> software ported to Amiga long before Linux--and at the early
> BADGE demo contests (the first of what would decades later
> become YouTube) and in the first demo of the World Wide Web,
> where Berners-Lee sat at a computer at CERN in France and
> mouse-clicked to retrieve and display a Postscript document
> from a server at SLAC in Palo Alto. This was called the 'killer
> app' of that demo, when the audience could see just what these
> web hyperlinks could accomplish.
Heaven forbid we mention the many many uses of the A500 as
a set top or a controller for everything from bowling lanes to
multimedia kiosks.
> These were the A1000 people, they used WSHell and ARexx
> and AmigaTeX and VLT and the CLI and maybe Emacs or
> Vim and the Post postscript interpreter and the machines all
> had a StarBoard II on the side to give an extra 2Mb RAM,
> something CBM never figured out. It was 1988.
FFS, your rewrite of history sucks.
> But these were people using the Amiga-as-computer and were for
> the most part ignored by CBM. Many of these people went on to
> work on the Linux and FreeBSD kernels, DragonFlyBSD, to get
> PhDs, stuff like that. The CBM engineers seemed to have
> collectively dropped out of the computer industry altogether.
Just because your limited searching powers are so lacking
doesn't make such statements true. Name half a dozen of those
bright lights before you make such statements that can be
disproven by Mr. Google in seconds.
> It was in 1992 that someone on BIX noted need for a PD Amiga
> style OS, that Tripos was open source (bcpl, but hey it worked for
> the Alto and for the Bell Labs people who developed Unix) and a
> good base to begin from. The CBM people didn't care, they were
> all going to get rich off the set-top boxes and kiosk systems. And
> game machines with writable floppies.
I wonder where the A3000kD and A3000kT fit into your fantasy
world. Or System V.
You should be incensed over the quarter step forward the A4000k
represented but Amiga history had already ended before then
according to your anonymous and unsubstantiated bent.
Ya, Commodore screwed the pooch, big time, becoming the first
corporation to rip itself off on behalf of certain executives and
preferred shareholders. My Amiga however works just fine.
Terry
Gary Beeton
> My Amiga however works just fine.
Arthur C. Clarke once famously wrote "Any sufficiently advanced
technology is indistinguishable from magic". Well I hate to break it to
you, Terry, but the Amiga's magic has been gone for a long, long, long time.
--
Gary Beeton
anamigan
> anamigan wrote:
How would you know when you stopped having anything to do with current
Amigas at the WarpEngine 4040 level in an A4KD?
My AOS 4.1 ppc@900MHz, 2G RAM, 512M 9250 config is very snappy.
You have what an 040@40MHz/128M/Picasso IV? Running OS3.9?
You are soooo last millenium.
Terry
Gary Beeton
Once again you are confused. It's not me that's soooo last millennium,
it's the *Amiga* that is soooo last millennium. Nothing much has
changed since 1994. Except that there is no longer anything like a
killer app for it.
--
Gary Beeton
Ivica Bozic
You have a YouTube video to take into consideration when writing in
this tone again.
--
--+ I. B. +--
Clocky
Congratulations Terry, you're one of the few whom contributed to turning
what should have been the Amiga legend into the greatest farce in the
history of personal computing, stripping all dignity from the once great
platform in the process.
I hope you're proud.
Gary Beeton
> Congratulations Terry, you're one of the few whom contributed to turning
> what should have been the Amiga legend into the greatest farce in the
> history of personal computing, stripping all dignity from the once great
> platform in the process.
>
> I hope you're proud.
Surely you don't expect Terry to comprehend the concepts of pride and
dignity...
--
Gary Beeton
anamigan
> anamigan wrote:
>>> anamigan wrote:
I suppose that Commodore's management who stripped the corporation
of funds and direction while failing to provide any leadership had no
hand
in this debacle?
The very same people that fumbled the A3000UX, that failed to pay for
ports of common applications, that screwed over their developer
community and ignored what third parties were accomplishing?
The legend dear clockie still runs. There is a community which obviously
you are no longer part of. Garry Beeton is certainly not. I don't see
you
out there writing the proper historical version of what really happened.
Nor do I see you correcting any of the blatant revisionist history being
foisted on an ignorant world by the lying dogs at Apple or other people
who ended up incorporating the main themes of the Amiga OS and hardware
advancements into their products,
> I hope you're proud.
Quitters and naysayers aside, yes.
Terry
anamigan
> Clocky wrote:
No more than I expect you to understand decency and honesty Beeton
Troll.
Terry
Gary Beeton
> On Sat, 27 Jun 2009 08:19:36 +0800, "Clocky" wrote:
>
>> Congratulations Terry, you're one of the few whom contributed to turning
>> what should have been the Amiga legend into the greatest farce in the
>> history of personal computing, stripping all dignity from the once great
>> platform in the process.
>
> I suppose that Commodore's management who stripped the corporation
> of funds and direction while failing to provide any leadership had no
> hand
> in this debacle?
Nope.
> The very same people that fumbled the A3000UX, that failed to pay for
> ports of common applications, that screwed over their developer
> community and ignored what third parties were accomplishing?
None whatsoever. What happened to the Amiga at the hands of Commodore
was a great shame obviously, but the Amiga was still a proud name at
that point. It is what happened _after_ its death that Clocky is
talking about. The stripping of all dignity happened when morons like
you started propping the Amiga up and pretend it was still alive. The
dead should be put to rest, not paraded around like Norman Bates` mother.
When the Amiga died it still (more or less) held its own against the
competition. I want to remember the Amiga for that. I want to remember
the Amiga for the innovation that the it brought to personal computing -
the stuff that left Microsoft and Apple scrambling to catch up and copy.
But no. Now thanks to assholes like you, the taste that word `Amiga`
leaves in my mouth is mismanagement, failure, and a pathetic denial of
reality. Thanks a lot, asswipe!
>
> The legend dear clockie still runs. There is a community which obviously
> you are no longer part of. Garry Beeton is certainly not. I don't see
> you
> out there writing the proper historical version of what really happened.
There is no community, moron. There are only a few deadbeat dorks who
refuse to see reality.
>> I hope you're proud.
>
> Quitters and naysayers aside, yes.
You have no shame!
--
Gary Beeton
Gary Beeton
Pathetic! Was it bad parenting or do you blame society for the sorry
state that you're in?
--
Gary Beeton
Kimme Utsi
This is an nicely written terminology to the doom of the Amiga, the the
Amiga still ruled the personal computer scene when the AGA chipset was
released.
--
Kimme Utsi <http://kimme.blogspot.com/>
Lord Vetinari
news:3UX0m.4768$n01....@newsfe15.iad...
Mine's still around, Beaten.
Lord Vetinari
[snip]
> The dead should be put to rest, not paraded around like Norman Bates`
> mother.
Ah....when exactly was Norman Bates' mother paraded around? You ought to
watch the movie, or at least read the book.
[snip]
Gary Beeton
> "Gary Beeton" <gbe...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
> news:3UX0m.4768$n01....@newsfe15.iad...
>> is indistinguishable from magic". Well I hate to break it to you, Terry,
>> but the Amiga's magic has been gone for a long, long, long time.
>
> Mine's still around, Beaten.
Of course your Amiga is beaten. It fell behind the competition about 15
years ago.
--
Gary Beeton
Gary Beeton
Dead is still dead. Treat it with due respect, reverence, and decorum.
--
Gary Beeton
Goblin
If I may interject.
I haven't owned a "real" Amiga for quite some time (since my A4000 died
and was moved into the loft) I do however have a great love of the
machine since my first real experiences of coding are found memories of
Devpac 2 and Argasm.
That being said, as Microsoft are finding out, dead is dead when its
users say so. Look at XP, did Microsoft convince people to switch to
Vista in droves? I don't think so. What will happen with 7? who knows?
When looking at the work going on in the Amiga scene today, its still
alive and well IMO, so much so that it was one of the things thats
encouraged me to continue an Amiga emulation project for Linux.
Mr Beeton, I suggest that if companies told users when a platform was
dead we would be in a sorry state of affairs and maybe why since MS
seems to want to take this stance FOSS is flourishing.
Just an idea, and please for heavens sake dont take a look at the
Spectrum scene, thats still alive and kicking too.
--
Goblin
"Cave quid dicis, quando, et cui."
http://www.openbytes.wordpress.com
Catch me on http://www.twitter.com/_goblin or http://identi.ca/openbytes/all
I also frequent #boycottnovell on freenode.net
Currently running:
Wolvix 2.0.0(beta2) & #!CBL 8.10
Gary Beeton
> ...dead is dead when its users say so.
Amiga users said so many, many years ago. In droves.
--
Gary Beeton
Goblin
> Goblin wrote:
>
>> ...dead is dead when its users say so.
>
> Amiga users said so many, many years ago. In droves.
>
about, neither would the AROS project. Now that we live in an age of
cross platform development and a massive revival in retro computing both
on the coding side and the hobby collector I'd say you are wrong.
Whats your issue with people taking enjoyment from a different computing
system? Is it really so offensive to you that people are still involved
in developing code for the motorola 68k?
I've always said that the Amiga was more of an ethos than a machine, it
was something which allowed the bedroom coder to produce some great
work, it allowed the first FOSS (of sorts) to flourish and set up the
demo scene. Regardless of if people moved from it or not, that ethos
remains in Linux today and maybe you should take your comments to AROS
and tell the developers how they are not developing a popular OS on the
back of AmigaOS, I'm sure they would appreciate it and would inform you
that there download stats say otherwise.
If this was COLA I would think you a MS Shill since you seem determined
to cheapen others love of a system, since the Amiga is hardly a threat
to the Redmond revenue, I can only assume either:
a/ You are simply bored.
b/ You were an ST owner and are miffed that the release of The A500
Batman Pack completely destroyed the popularity of your machine, and saw
the ST's lesser specs take a back burner to Commodore.
Oh and you conveniently avoided my point about the Spectrum and the
current dev on that platform.
It may interest you to know that an off the shelf publication
(Micromart) actually has an Amiga section, want to still say its dead?
Clocky
As a doornail.
The fact that there remains a few thousand people still using and developing
AmigaOS in some fashion doesn't take away the fact that the Amiga has been
dead from a viability point of view for over 15 years.
Gary Beeton
> Gary Beeton wrote:
>> Amiga users said so many, many years ago. In droves.
>>
> Well, obviously not otherwise the Amiga Demo Scene wouldn't still be
> about, neither would the AROS project. Now that we live in an age of
> cross platform development and a massive revival in retro computing both
> on the coding side and the hobby collector I'd say you are wrong.
The "Demo Scene" doesn't produce anything useful and AROS isn't an Amiga.
What would it take for you to declare the Amiga dead? That the last
Amiga carcass finally turns to dust? That the last living soul ever to
know what an Amiga was finally passes away? I think most people have a
more sensible definition of 'dead' than that. For me, if you can't buy
one, can't get support for it, and nobody writes any useful software for
it, then it's dead. The Amiga certainly qualifies by that definition.
Retro is fine for hobbyists, but that doesn't make the Amiga any less dead.
> Whats your issue with people taking enjoyment from a different computing
> system? Is it really so offensive to you that people are still involved
> in developing code for the motorola 68k?
I have no problem with hobbyists enjoying whatever it is that turns
their crank. I do have a problem with bullshit - like people claiming
the Amiga to be vibrant when clearly it isn't.
--
Gary Beeton
Goblin
they wish) can follow the thread and I think it makes it easier.
I would like to address the questions put here. Its funny that the
comments of some can attract a FOSS advocate/coder into a discussion
that really is about as far removed from my usual line of discussion
(that being patents, MONO and proprietary) and talking about a computer
which I owned in the 80's and 90's and am now engaged in an emu project.
If you will let me indulge I will answer both Gary and Clocky in the
same response.
First, some of Garys points/questions:
Gary, you said "The "Demo Scene" doesn't produce anything useful " and
I take it by that you are either unaware or choosing to ignore the
mainstream coders who have been responsible for some of the modern
software. The Amiga asm scene for example was a training ground for
some and even now hacking a CPU beyond its specs is why so many
tallented coders emerged from the scene. Putting aside coders for a
second, lets look at musicians.....Romeo Knight from Red Sector? would
he have created masterpieces such as "Rise up" if the Amiga had not been
about?
Gary said "What would it take for you to declare the Amiga dead? "
And thats sort of a good question. The answer is nothing, it is not a
living thing and as long as there is interest in it (however large or
small) then it will keep going in some form. I repeat what I said
before, a mainstream off the shelf magazine has an Amiga section, so
there must be some interest in it still. When you are declaring things
dead, consider this: We live in a world of digital cameras, yet people
for a hobby still take pinhole photographs. Should these people stop
their hobby merely because technology has moved on? Of course not. Same
for digital imaging and manipulation. Some people prefer to develop
their own photographs instead of relying on Photoshop. Is that wrong?
Should their dead format be stopped? Of course not, as I say whatever
the item is, if there is interest in it, it carries on.
Gary said "AROS isn't an Amiga."
True, but its AmigaOS based platform that offers compat AND 68k emu via
UAE. Sure your CPU may be an AMD but in the case of the .adf compat its
motorola op codes its emulating.
Gary you say "For me, if you can't buy one, can't get support for it,
and nobody writes any useful software for it, then it's dead. The Amiga
certainly qualifies by that definition. "
Ok, what about a classic car? You cant buy one of them (new anyway).
In terms of support, go over to an Amiga forum and ask a question. I
think you will find plenty of support there. Useful software? What are
you after? I bet I can find a package which performs the task you
require. There are many things that qualify as your "dead". Very
shortly it will be XP (according to your theory)....you try telling the
massive XP base that their OS is dead...thats what Microsoft is trying
to do and that why you see support for ReactOS.
Finally Gary, you say "I do have a problem with bullshit - like people
claiming the Amiga to be vibrant when clearly it isn't. "
So you measure vibrancy on actual hard numbers do you? I consider the
Wolvix community and distro to be vibrant (I champion this slackware
derived distro) however I bet its userbase is only in the
thousands....am I wrong to do so? of course not. I wouldnt think
anyone is suggesting that you could create a Microsoft type return from
Amiga products today (that would be silly) but a quick look how the
Amiga shifts on Ebay should be a good indicator that theres plenty of
people still interested.
Now Clocky says:
"As a doornail."
Well I dont know about anyone else, but I'm convinced.
Back to seriousness though, as I said to Gary I don't think anyone is
suggesting you could create a Microsoft empire through Amiga products
and you have to consider the tech is now very old anyway. I don't think
the 68000 would even be up to XVID encoding in any reasonable time.
What it is up to though is a platform (either via emu or the machine
itself) that encourages creativity and gives alot of pleasure to many
people (whatever that figure is) to me (and using your terms) it means
its alive and well.
The day its "dead" (Gary's words) would be when someone asks "Did you
have an Amiga" and that person has to look it up on Wikipedia.
Gary Beeton
> Gary, you said "The "Demo Scene" doesn't produce anything useful " and
> I take it by that you are either unaware or choosing to ignore the
> mainstream coders who have been responsible for some of the modern
> software. The Amiga asm scene for example was a training ground for
> some and even now hacking a CPU beyond its specs is why so many
> tallented coders emerged from the scene.
And where can I buy these alleged useful Amiga applications?
> Gary said "What would it take for you to declare the Amiga dead? "
>
> And thats sort of a good question. The answer is nothing, it is not a
> living thing and as long as there is interest in it (however large or
> small) then it will keep going in some form. I repeat what I said
> before, a mainstream off the shelf magazine has an Amiga section, so
> there must be some interest in it still.
Lots of people are interested in dinosaurs too. Er... sorry, is that
redundant?
> When you are declaring things
> dead, consider this: We live in a world of digital cameras, yet people
> for a hobby still take pinhole photographs. Should these people stop
> their hobby merely because technology has moved on? Of course not. Same
> for digital imaging and manipulation. Some people prefer to develop
> their own photographs instead of relying on Photoshop. Is that wrong?
> Should their dead format be stopped? Of course not, as I say whatever
> the item is, if there is interest in it, it carries on.
At least you agree that film is dead. But as you say, that doesn't stop
hobbyists from pursuing their pastime.
> Gary said "AROS isn't an Amiga."
>
> True, but its AmigaOS based platform that offers compat AND 68k emu via
> UAE. Sure your CPU may be an AMD but in the case of the .adf compat its
> motorola op codes its emulating.
Emulation still leaves you with a 20 year old OS, no support and no
modern applications.
> Gary you say "For me, if you can't buy one, can't get support for it,
> and nobody writes any useful software for it, then it's dead. The Amiga
> certainly qualifies by that definition. "
>
> Ok, what about a classic car? You cant buy one of them (new anyway). In
> terms of support, go over to an Amiga forum and ask a question. I think
> you will find plenty of support there.
Try popping down to your local Nash dealership and asking for a door
handle for a 1956 Metropolitan. Let us know how you make out.
> Useful software? What are you
> after? I bet I can find a package which performs the task you require.
How about some tax software? A CAD package? Non-destructive photo
editor? Media server software? Software to control my digital SLR? A
spreadsheet? No? Then how about just a decent web browser?
> There are many things that qualify as your "dead". Very shortly it will
> be XP (according to your theory)....you try telling the massive XP base
> that their OS is dead...thats what Microsoft is trying to do and that
> why you see support for ReactOS.
If MS stop selling and supporting XP then it will be dead, just like
AOS. Why is that so hard to accept?
> Finally Gary, you say "I do have a problem with bullshit - like people
> claiming the Amiga to be vibrant when clearly it isn't. "
>
> So you measure vibrancy on actual hard numbers do you?
I gave you my criteria.
> I wouldnt think
> anyone is suggesting that you could create a Microsoft type return from
> Amiga products today (that would be silly) but a quick look how the
> Amiga shifts on Ebay should be a good indicator that theres plenty of
> people still interested.
Sure, lots of people are interested in old, defunct crap. Good for
them. Just so long as they *understand* that it is old, defunct crap.
> Now Clocky says:
>
> "As a doornail."
>
> Well I dont know about anyone else, but I'm convinced.
So you should be. He hit the nail on the head (so to speak).
> Back to seriousness though, as I said to Gary I don't think anyone is
> suggesting you could create a Microsoft empire through Amiga products
> and you have to consider the tech is now very old anyway. I don't think
> the 68000 would even be up to XVID encoding in any reasonable time. What
> it is up to though is a platform (either via emu or the machine itself)
> that encourages creativity and gives alot of pleasure to many people
> (whatever that figure is) to me (and using your terms) it means its
> alive and well.
I'm not into necrophilia, but if that's what turns your crank then knock
yourself out.
> The day its "dead" (Gary's words) would be when someone asks "Did you
> have an Amiga" and that person has to look it up on Wikipedia.
Then by your own definition the Amiga is long dead. I could find 10
people who have never heard of Amiga for every one that has.
--
Gary Beeton
Goblin
I can't decide if you are telling lies or simply not reading my post
properly. I do you the courtesy of reading yours, please do the same to me.
The whole crux of my post was that you cannot make a Microsoft empire on
Amiga software so why are you asking "where can I buy?" we already
established on a return basis there is little on the Amiga, so your
question about buying software is silly.
When you said:
"Lots of people are interested in dinosaurs too. Er... sorry, is that
redundant? "
Redundant? Computers and creatures are a little different and since you
asked, no, there are plenty of creatures alive today that have not
evolved substantially from the jurassic period. We can have a
discussion of these dinosaur creatures if you want, but it really
detracts from the issue of IT and if the Amiga platform is "dead" as you
put it.
Quote "At least you agree that film is dead. But as you say, that
doesn't stop hobbyists from pursuing their pastime. "
I never said that and my use of the word dead was in the context of the
way you use it. You seem to describe a platform as "dead" because you
can't make money from it. IMO you prove that by asking the "buying"
question you did above.
Quote "Emulation still leaves you with a 20 year old OS, no support and
no modern applications. "
And XP users seem very happy with their 8 yr old OS over Vista (infact
havent Microsoft had to include XPM in 7 for Enterprise just to keep
them happy?). Whats your point? If ANY item performs to the
expectations of its users then it doesnt matter how old it is. Support
wise - in terms of hardware then no. It terms of software/help/advice
you are completely misinformed and I cannot understand why you don't
just google an amiga forum to see how much help/support is still available.
Emulation doesnt leave you with a 20 year old OS since it needs a
platform to run from. The project I am working on involves integration
of a Linux platform with seamless 68k emu. Anyone who can emulate the
Amiga already has an OS which has the facility for modern apps and
before you think of going down an anti Linux route, with WINE (a Windows
replacement API) you can get Windows binaries running (and in many cases
much faster)
Just like some people still code the Z80, people still code 68k. Call
it a hobby, call it a challenge, call it whatever you want but these
people are keeping the Amiga going because they are coding within the
confines of the original system. There's no DX calls here, merely
direct hardware coding.
Quote "Try popping down to your local Nash dealership and asking for a
door handle for a 1956 Metropolitan. Let us know how you make out. "
I have no idea what you are going on about here (Nash dealership) If you
are refering to parts then I would direct you to 3rd party companies....
My point about the car was to highlight that just because something is
not in production anymore doesnt mean (your words) its dead.
Quote "How about some tax software? A CAD package? Non-destructive
photo editor? Media server software? Software to control my digital
SLR? A spreadsheet? No? Then how about just a decent web browser? "
Ok, now you are being silly. If you had bothered to look at the AROS
project, you would see that it is actually available for the Amiga. You
would have also seen the FOSS ports either in progess or already available.
The original restrictions of the A500 in terms of processor power mean
that XVID encoding (for example) is not practical, but if you want to
use that as an example, try the same on WinMOB and I think you will find
that this "modern platform" has just the same issues.
Quote "If MS stop selling and supporting XP then it will be dead, just
like AOS. Why is that so hard to accept? "
So thats your take then is it? We've had this long debate when really
what you needed to say at the beginning was: "When a manufacturer stops
selling something then its dead" it could have saved me entering into a
conversation that I originally believed would have an intellectual basis.
There is nothing hard to accept, although in the face of a still active
Amiga userbase what qualifies you to say its dead?
Then I read your comment of:
"I'm not into necrophilia, but if that's what turns your crank then
knock yourself out."
and realize that it was never possible to have an adult conversation
with you. Young man, you need to grow up if you want to be taken
seriously. We could have had a decent debate where your points and mine
could have been read and readers drawn their own conclusions. Instead,
because you can't counter you have to resort to childishness.
"Then by your own definition the Amiga is long dead. I could find 10
people who have never heard of Amiga for every one that has."
That was in respect of the computer enthusiast's and professional coder.
My degree which culminated in a masters was very much like the
majority of system engineering courses and the Amiga (and noteably the
A500) was a pivotal moment in home computing. The 68k architecture was
required learning and many of the hardware hacking techniques (for want
of a better word) are still employed within the realm of coding today
(albeit for a different platform). Fact is, however many people are
interested in the Amiga be it one or one million, means that its not "dead".
Who on earth are you to declare a system dead?
I won't wait for Clocky to return as the only two people here that seem
to take the interest in the Amiga personally have no argument at all, I
don't believe any of the Amiga enthusiasts will take a blind bit of
notice of their silly argument and so it doesn't really matter at all.
Gary, why do you feel the need to cheapen the interest of others in the
Amiga? Is the Amiga that offensive to you?
Gary, just out of interest....are you a Vista user? and are you
currently running the 7 RC by any chance?? - I would accuse you of
being a FUD spreader, unfortunately you are in the wrong forum (HINT:
You should be in an MS one) and I don't believe you have convinced
anyone to your way of thinking.
If anyone wants to further see an example of current interest in the
Amiga, look no further than CATWEASEL, a floppy controller for the PC
(hardware)..
So to conclude:
1. A mainstream off the shelf publication has an Amiga section.
2. There are hundreds of Amiga groups/forums active on the net.
3. The Amiga demoscene is alive and well.
4. The Catweasel hardware is currently being produced.
5. There are numerous Amiga emulation projects around..
But Gary still thinks the Amiga is "dead"....
Ok....Shame you couldnt stay mature Gary.....
Clocky
>
> Who on earth are you to declare a system dead?
>
> I won't wait for Clocky to return as the only two people here that
> seem to take the interest in the Amiga personally have no argument at all,
> I don't believe any of the Amiga enthusiasts will take a blind bit of
> notice of their silly argument and so it doesn't really matter at all.
I'm an Amiga enthusiast, but the platform is completely and utterly dead
from a viability point of view. Has been for many, many years.
There is nothing you can do on an Amiga that you can't do better on another
platform.
> Gary, why do you feel the need to cheapen the interest of others in
> the Amiga? Is the Amiga that offensive to you?
>
> Gary, just out of interest....are you a Vista user? and are you
> currently running the 7 RC by any chance?? - I would accuse you of
> being a FUD spreader, unfortunately you are in the wrong forum (HINT:
> You should be in an MS one) and I don't believe you have convinced
> anyone to your way of thinking.
>
> If anyone wants to further see an example of current interest in the
> Amiga, look no further than CATWEASEL, a floppy controller for the PC
> (hardware)..
So people can preserve their old nostalgia onto modern media and platforms,
hardly something that supports your arguement that the Amiga isn't dead.
> So to conclude:
>
> 1. A mainstream off the shelf publication has an Amiga section.
That nobody but the editor and a handful of wishful thinkers gives a shit
about.
> 2. There are hundreds of Amiga groups/forums active on the net.
There are plenty more in equally dead platforms.
>
> 3. The Amiga demoscene is alive and well.
>
People don't choose the Amiga as a demo platform because it's the platform
of choice for writing the best demos.
> 4. The Catweasel hardware is currently being produced.
See my comment above.
> 5. There are numerous Amiga emulation projects around..
Emulating a platform for nostalgia is indicative of people wanting to look
back at what once was. Why would emulation be needed if the platform was
alive?
> But Gary still thinks the Amiga is "dead"....
>
> Ok....Shame you couldnt stay mature Gary.....
Some of your own counter-arguements are contradicting your assertions that
the Amiga is alive.
Goblin
stay mature, but secondly you are responding to points that were aimed
at Gary.
I laughed when you said
"Some of your own counter-arguements are contradicting your assertions
that the Amiga is alive. "
Since you don't specify because your counters to points not directed at
you are so weak and you fail to see the irony in your comment of:
"I'm an Amiga enthusiast, but the platform is completely and utterly
dead from a viability point of view."
Clocky, Ill repeat again since maybe you have difficulty focusing on a
long post - Nobody is claiming the Amiga is viable for a Microsoft type
software empire (third time of saying now) what it being said is that as
long as there are enthusiasts and hobbyists the platform is still
"alive." Just because there is no/little economic value for the
platform doesnt affect the hobbyist since the average hobbyist wont make
financial gain out of even a moderm platform. Thats why the "viability"
has no bearing on the platform and why you can't claim its "dead".
Oh and I'm sure people reading will completely take your word over that
of an editor of an off the shelf publication, because you've proved
yourself such a IT pro when you say:
"That nobody but the editor and a handful of wishful thinkers gives a
shit about."
I'll leave it there.
Gary Beeton
Please do try to show a little respect for the reader of this thread by
following some basic netiquette.
> I can't decide if you are telling lies or simply not reading my post
> properly. I do you the courtesy of reading yours, please do the same to
> me.
Funny, I was about to say the same about you.
> The whole crux of my post was that you cannot make a Microsoft empire on
> Amiga software so why are you asking "where can I buy?" we already
> established on a return basis there is little on the Amiga, so your
> question about buying software is silly.
Why do you keep insisting on bringing Microsoft into the conversation?
Please try discussing the Amiga on its own merits if you can.
My point about "where can I buy?" is not about economics, it's about
availability. How can I enjoy the marvels of the Amiga if I can't get
my hands on one nor buy any software to run on it?
> When you said:
>
> "Lots of people are interested in dinosaurs too. Er... sorry, is that
> redundant? "
>
> Redundant?
Seems you missed my little joke: Dinosaurs (both the Jurassic creatures
and the Amiga variety) are dead.
> Quote "At least you agree that film is dead. But as you say, that
> doesn't stop hobbyists from pursuing their pastime. "
>
> I never said that and my use of the word dead was in the context of the
> way you use it.
You said: "Should their dead format be stopped?"
> You seem to describe a platform as "dead" because you
> can't make money from it. IMO you prove that by asking the "buying"
> question you did above.
Not at all. I say the Amiga is dead because you can't buy one, because
it is no longer supported, and because you can't get software for it.
> Quote "Emulation still leaves you with a 20 year old OS, no support and
> no modern applications. "
>
> And XP users seem very happy with their 8 yr old OS over Vista (infact
> havent Microsoft had to include XPM in 7 for Enterprise just to keep
> them happy?).
Again with MS? Sigh. MS still supports XP. You can still buy software
to run on it.
> Whats your point? If ANY item performs to the
> expectations of its users then it doesnt matter how old it is.
That is precisely why almost every former Amiga user has moved on.
> Support
> wise - in terms of hardware then no. It terms of software/help/advice
> you are completely misinformed and I cannot understand why you don't
> just google an amiga forum to see how much help/support is still available.
I don't want a sympathetic shoulder to cry on. I want a capable, modern
OS with capable, modern software to run on it.
> Emulation doesnt leave you with a 20 year old OS since it needs a
> platform to run from. The project I am working on involves integration
> of a Linux platform with seamless 68k emu. Anyone who can emulate the
> Amiga already has an OS which has the facility for modern apps and
> before you think of going down an anti Linux route, with WINE (a Windows
> replacement API) you can get Windows binaries running (and in many cases
> much faster)
What, prey tell, does that have to do with the Amiga??
> Just like some people still code the Z80, people still code 68k. Call
> it a hobby, call it a challenge, call it whatever you want but these
> people are keeping the Amiga going because they are coding within the
> confines of the original system. There's no DX calls here, merely
> direct hardware coding.
The "confines of the original system" don't perform to the expectations
of todays users.
> Quote "Try popping down to your local Nash dealership and asking for a
> door handle for a 1956 Metropolitan. Let us know how you make out. "
>
> I have no idea what you are going on about here (Nash dealership)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nash_Metropolitan
> If you
> are refering to parts then I would direct you to 3rd party companies....
> My point about the car was to highlight that just because something is
> not in production anymore doesnt mean (your words) its dead.
If you're happy running 3rd party band aids then good for you. I want a
system that isn't held together with duct tape and bubblegum.
> Quote "How about some tax software? A CAD package? Non-destructive
> photo editor? Media server software? Software to control my digital
> SLR? A spreadsheet? No? Then how about just a decent web browser? "
>
> Ok, now you are being silly.
I am being silly for wanting my Amiga to be useful?? Please elaborate.
> If you had bothered to look at the AROS
> project, you would see that it is actually available for the Amiga. You
> would have also seen the FOSS ports either in progess or already available.
Again, what has that got to do with the Amiga?
> The original restrictions of the A500 in terms of processor power mean
> that XVID encoding (for example) is not practical, but if you want to
> use that as an example, try the same on WinMOB and I think you will find
> that this "modern platform" has just the same issues.
You certainly do have a hard-on about Windows, don't you? I don't want
an A500 that is capable of encoding XVID. I want a modern Amiga that is
capable of standing on its own two feet.
> Quote "If MS stop selling and supporting XP then it will be dead, just
> like AOS. Why is that so hard to accept? "
>
> So thats your take then is it? We've had this long debate when really
> what you needed to say at the beginning was: "When a manufacturer stops
> selling something then its dead" it could have saved me entering into a
> conversation that I originally believed would have an intellectual basis.
What part of "For me, if you can't buy one, can't get support for it,
and nobody writes any useful software for it, then it's dead" did you
not understand?
> There is nothing hard to accept, although in the face of a still active
> Amiga userbase what qualifies you to say its dead?
I am a member of an very large group of former users who left because
the Amiga failed to perform to their expectations. A group, I might
add, that *vastly* out-numbers this "still active Amiga userbase" you
refer to.
> Then I read your comment of:
>
> "I'm not into necrophilia, but if that's what turns your crank then
> knock yourself out."
>
> and realize that it was never possible to have an adult conversation
> with you. Young man, you need to grow up if you want to be taken
> seriously. We could have had a decent debate where your points and mine
> could have been read and readers drawn their own conclusions. Instead,
> because you can't counter you have to resort to childishness.
You like playing with dead things and you think *I* need to grow up??
Look, I'm not criticizing your hobby in the least. All I ask is that
you stop claiming the Amiga to be something that it clearly isn't.
> "Then by your own definition the Amiga is long dead. I could find 10
> people who have never heard of Amiga for every one that has."
>
> That was in respect of the computer enthusiast's and professional coder.
If all else fails, move the goalposts.
> the Amiga (and noteably the A500) was
> a pivotal moment in home computing. The 68k architecture was required
> learning and many of the hardware hacking techniques (for want of a
> better word) are still employed within the realm of coding today (albeit
> for a different platform).
The key word there being "was".
> Fact is, however many people are interested
> in the Amiga be it one or one million, means that its not "dead".
Like I said before, lots of people are interested in dinosaurs too.
Nothing wrong with that, but despite your claims they are long dead.
Things have moved on.
> Who on earth are you to declare a system dead?
It's an observation, not a declaration. As for who I am, see above.
> I won't wait for Clocky to return as the only two people here that seem
> to take the interest in the Amiga personally have no argument at all, I
> don't believe any of the Amiga enthusiasts will take a blind bit of
> notice of their silly argument and so it doesn't really matter at all.
You sticking your fingers in your ears and singing 'La, La' at the top
of your lungs doesn't mean Clocky and I have no argument. As for Amiga
enthusiasts, most of them left many, many years ago when the Amiga died.
> Gary, why do you feel the need to cheapen the interest of others in the
> Amiga? Is the Amiga that offensive to you?
How can the truth possibly cheapen the interest of others? Since you
haven't bothered to read what I wrote previously regarding what I find
offensive let me re-quote it for you:
"When the Amiga died it still (more or less) held its own against the
competition. I want to remember the Amiga for that. I want to remember
the Amiga for the innovation that the it brought to personal computing -
the stuff that left Microsoft and Apple scrambling to catch up and copy.
But no. Now thanks to assholes like you, the taste that [the] word
`Amiga` leaves in my mouth is mismanagement, failure, and a pathetic
denial of reality. Thanks a lot, asswipe!"
> Gary, just out of interest....are you a Vista user? and are you
> currently running the 7 RC by any chance??
I have Vista, XP, and 2000 systems. No 7. You? (Can we assume that
since you're using Thunderbird for your newsreader that you don't
actually use your Amiga for anything useful?)
> - I would accuse you of
> being a FUD spreader, unfortunately you are in the wrong forum (HINT:
> You should be in an MS one) and I don't believe you have convinced
> anyone to your way of thinking.
I am not spreading FUD - I am *dispelling* it. The FUD spreaders are
the ones pretending that the Amiga is still viable in any way other than
for a nostalgia trip.
> If anyone wants to further see an example of current interest in the
> Amiga, look no further than CATWEASEL, a floppy controller for the PC
> (hardware)..
If ever there was an indicator that the Amiga is dead it is that
statement. Floppies?? Wow! Software hasn't been distributed on
floppies for eons.
> So to conclude:
>
> 1. A mainstream off the shelf publication has an Amiga section.
>
> 2. There are hundreds of Amiga groups/forums active on the net.
>
> 3. The Amiga demoscene is alive and well.
>
> 4. The Catweasel hardware is currently being produced.
>
> 5. There are numerous Amiga emulation projects around..
6. You can't buy one for love or money.
7. Even if you could find one, you can't do anything useful with it
because you can't buy useful software.
8. Even if you had software, the OS is too archaic to do what users
expect from a computer today.
9. The Amiga faithful are so pathetically in denial that they frighten
off any potential new users.
> But Gary still thinks the Amiga is "dead"....
Me and a couple million others. (the other ~6.770 billion would likely
agree if only they knew what an Amiga was)
> Ok....Shame you couldnt stay mature Gary.....
You can't come up with a response to my argument so you launch a
personal attack against me. Typical troll behaviour.
--
Gary Beeton
Clocky
> This conversation is getting silly. Firstly clocky because you cant
> stay mature, but secondly you are responding to points that were aimed
> at Gary.
1. If getting straight to the point instead of babbling around the arguement
makes *me* immature in your eyes, you clearly still have a lot of growing up
to do.
> I laughed when you said
>
> "Some of your own counter-arguements are contradicting your assertions
> that the Amiga is alive. "
>
> Since you don't specify because your counters to points not directed
> at you are so weak and you fail to see the irony in your comment of:
I pointed out your own contradictions, if you fail to understand them that
is your problem.
> "I'm an Amiga enthusiast, but the platform is completely and utterly
> dead from a viability point of view."
>
> Clocky, Ill repeat again since maybe you have difficulty focusing on a
> long post - Nobody is claiming the Amiga is viable for a Microsoft
> type software empire (third time of saying now) what it being said is
> that as long as there are enthusiasts and hobbyists the platform is
> still "alive." Just because there is no/little economic value for the
> platform doesnt affect the hobbyist since the average hobbyist wont
> make financial gain out of even a moderm platform. Thats why the
> "viability" has no bearing on the platform and why you can't claim
> its "dead".
No hardware, no software, no development = dead.
> Oh and I'm sure people reading will completely take your word over
> that of an editor of an off the shelf publication, because you've
> proved yourself such a IT pro when you say:
You proclaim the the Amiga is alive because one editor for one magazine out
of hundreds of thousands magazines worldwide has an Amiga specific column in
a magazine nobody has heard of... it's as irrelevant as the Amiga is today.
> "That nobody but the editor and a handful of wishful thinkers gives a
> shit about."
>
> I'll leave it there.
You have no other option because you know I'm right.
Goblin
Oh dear. You say:
"Funny, I was about to say the same about you. "
(Great to see you can think of your own counter) but thats a moot point
since you go on to prove you don't actually read my comments (as I said)
when you say:
"Why do you keep insisting on bringing Microsoft into the conversation?
Please try discussing the Amiga on its own merits if you can."
The reason MS is being brought in was in reference to YOUR point about
the Amiga being a market where no/little financial return is possible.
Microsoft it used as an example but its a large profitable industry. I
was not aware I was championing the Amiga on the basis of Microsoft.
Maybe you could quote me? Again, as I say you are either intentionally
tells lies or simply not reading my post.
You can "lay your hands on one" by either ebay or via an emulation
route....and there you go again, bringing finance into the platform by
saying
"How can I enjoy the marvels of the Amiga if I can't get my hands on one
nor buy any software to run on it? "
If you do purchase an Amiga from ebay, its very simply to write an adf
back to floppy so you could "enjoy the marvels" of much software...or
you could get yourself an Amiga and enjoy AROS. Then you have a world
of FOSS to enjoy...
Quote "Seems you missed my little joke: Dinosaurs (both the Jurassic
creatures and the Amiga variety) are dead. "
No I didnt miss the joke, it was simply unfunny and a poor attempt to
put a counter. I held it in the contempt it deserved by simply
challenging the holes in even your dinosaur comment (and the offer is
still there to discuss the slower evolving creatures since the jurassic
period.)
Quote
"I say the Amiga is dead because you can't buy one, because it is no
longer supported, and because you can't get software for it. "
and again you prove you are either not reading or understanding what I
am saying since in my last posts I did conclude your opinion (please
check back, I don't want to have to quote myself and make you look sillier.
Quote "
That is precisely why almost every former Amiga user has moved on. "
and some havent, whats the problem with that? How does it have any
bearing on your life?
Quote "I don't want a sympathetic shoulder to cry on. I want a capable,
modern OS with capable, modern software to run on it. "
Great, exercise your right to choose and do so. Don't simply condemn
others choices because they are not the same as your own.
Quote "What, prey tell, does that have to do with the Amiga?? " because
regardless of if you are coding for execution via the real machine or
via emulation, it is a hobby a challenge, a love or whatever you want to
call it. Again, please read my posts I already explained this.
Quote "The "confines of the original system" don't perform to the
expectations of todays users. "
How would you know? Going to speak for the entire community? I have no
use of a GUI and mostly rely on terminal apps....whilst the majority of
COMPIZ users are celebrating Gnome or KDE or others if I have to use a
GDE I opt for Xfce. Its called individuals needs/wants and as I say
above personal choice.
Quote "f you're happy running 3rd party band aids then good for you. I
want a system that isn't held together with duct tape and bubblegum. "
I'll take back what I previously said, you cant be a Vista user then. XP?
Not really relevant to the Amiga debate but its often common with users
of MS products and the years of PR for people to consider that money+
popularity = good system. Its not unusual to find these same people
completely baffled by the concept of FOSS simply because they cannot
fathom that someone would want to develop on a platform for fun/hobby
rather than for profit.
"I am being silly for wanting my Amiga to be useful?? Please elaborate. "
No, you are being silly because you hadnt investigated AROS properly and
noticed the many FOSS ports. You may be using a FOSS package
now....ever heard of Firefox? So if AROS is having ports of FOSS and is
available for the Amiga then I'd suggest theres a potential for a future
of many great pieces of software.
Quote "
I am a member of an very large group of former users who left because
the Amiga failed to perform to their expectations. A group, I might
add, that *vastly* out-numbers this "still active Amiga userbase" you
refer to."
Marvelous. So why do you still visit. Why do you still care? Even if
there were only 5 users left in the world why is it such an issue to you?
Quote "You like playing with dead things and you think *I* need to grow
up?? Look, I'm not criticizing your hobby in the least. All I ask is
that you stop claiming the Amiga to be something that it clearly isn't.
"
You dont know when to stop do you? or is it simply that you consider
the Amiga a living thing for your childish remark to be possible?
I would ask you to quote where I have said the Amiga is something it
isnt.....all I've said is that some people still enjoy coding on it for
a hobby...and for that reason it is still "alive"
So you are from a large group of ex - Amiga users? Since you've taken
the time to cheapen others interests (and at the end of the day my main
rigs are all Slackware based anyway) why not tell us what the "all
knowing" Gary is using now after he left the Amiga platform.
I'm sure I could find a fault or two in YOUR OS/platform of
choice....that is unless you are a FOSS user, where you should be
celebrating peoples freedom of choice and preference, not cheapening it.
I will wrap it up here since you are not reading my posts properly. You
keep asking what does this have to do with the Amiga....AROS is for the
Amiga.
Goblin
makes you immature.
I would not show you the disrespect to post with vulgarity, I would have
hoped you would extend the same courtesy.
This is not about Amiga > any other platform. This is about freedom of
choice and even if only 8 people on the planet use the Amiga platform,
it is not for you or I to cheapen or dismiss that.
Clocky
A complaint about vulgarity, if that is all you can come up with you had
better look in the mirror before passing judgement on the maturity of
others.
My method of communication doesn't negate my opinion.
> This is not about Amiga > any other platform. This is about freedom
> of choice and even if only 8 people on the planet use the Amiga
> platform, it is not for you or I to cheapen or dismiss that.
Using an Amiga is akin to listening to Elvis records, but let me assure you,
both are quite dead.
Perry Kivolowitz
> Using an Amiga is akin to listening to Elvis records, but let me assure
> you,
> both are quite dead.
Let's consider Elvis. He's dead. He continues to be a huge economic engine
and continues to satisfy a need for a particular audience. And, he's dead.
You are both absolutely right.
It is "alive" if there is a particular need for which this tool makes
technical or economic sense or it provides a pleasure which sidesteps a
value proposition.
It is "dead" as it or products based upon it cannot become major market
forces (in the sense of the larger "market") and lack formal backing or
infrastructure.
It's just minerals, metals, and plastics. Given the *right circumstances and
expectations* it can provide pleasure or utility (and for toys and tools
there is no predefined expiration date).
Goblin
"A complaint about vulgarity, if that is all you can come up with you had
better look in the mirror before passing judgement on the maturity of
others.
My method of communication doesn't negate my opinion.
"
legendary and a testament to what I have been saying. Method of
communication doesn't "negate" your point? My, my, realized your mistake
and now asking your older sibling for help?
"Using an Amiga is akin to listening to Elvis records, but let me assure
you,
both are quite dead."
Lovely. Tell you what Clocky, since I have no faith in your ability to
maintain a mature conversation (even with the help of your older brother
or sister) I will let you have the last word. If you want any tips on
being offensive, take some advice from the average MS shill. There's no
boundaries and unlike you, they can be very creative.
Go on, like a child get the last word in and "fill your boots"
Goblin
what both those two failed to grasp was that the Amiga is still a choice
for people (rightly or wrongly) it doesnt matter if the Amiga is not
sold, nor if it has an active commercial software base. Its simply a
matter of choice and a freedom people can exercise to run whatever
hardware/software they wish.
Unfortunately I have found that there are a generation of young people
who have been brought up to think big = best or popularity = best when
its not the case.
Regards.
Gary Beeton
Once again I ask that you have a little respect for the readers of this
thread. Why do you insist on going out of your way to make it difficult
to follow? Trying to cover your tracks perhaps?
> Oh dear. You say:
>
> "Funny, I was about to say the same about you. "
>
> (Great to see you can think of your own counter) but thats a moot point
> since you go on to prove you don't actually read my comments (as I said)
> when you say:
>
> "Why do you keep insisting on bringing Microsoft into the conversation?
> Please try discussing the Amiga on its own merits if you can."
>
> The reason MS is being brought in was in reference to YOUR point about
> the Amiga being a market where no/little financial return is possible.
That is your misinterpretation. I said nothing of the sort.
> I was not aware I was championing the Amiga
Trust me, you aren't. Just the opposite.
> You can "lay your hands on one" by either ebay or via an emulation
> route....and there you go again, bringing finance into the platform by
> saying
>
> "How can I enjoy the marvels of the Amiga if I can't get my hands on one
> nor buy any software to run on it? "
>
> If you do purchase an Amiga from ebay, its very simply to write an adf
> back to floppy so you could "enjoy the marvels" of much software
I told you before, I don't want some decrepit old hand-me-down held
together with duct tape and binder twine.
> ...or
> you could get yourself an Amiga and enjoy AROS. Then you have a world
> of FOSS to enjoy...
AROS <> Amiga
FOSS <> Amiga
This is an Amiga newsgroup. Please try to stay focused.
> Quote "Seems you missed my little joke: Dinosaurs (both the Jurassic
> creatures and the Amiga variety) are dead. "
>
> No I didnt miss the joke, it was simply unfunny and a poor attempt to
> put a counter.
Perhaps, but it still shatters your argument.
> Quote
> "I say the Amiga is dead because you can't buy one, because it is no
> longer supported, and because you can't get software for it. "
>
> and again you prove you are either not reading or understanding what I
> am saying since in my last posts I did conclude your opinion (please
> check back, I don't want to have to quote myself and make you look sillier.
You did conclude my opinion?? Yes, I admit I don't understand what you
are saying. Please clarify. In English please.
> Quote "
> That is precisely why almost every former Amiga user has moved on. "
>
> and some havent, whats the problem with that? How does it have any
> bearing on your life?
I have no problem with that whatsoever. More power to you. But please
stop spreading FUD about something I care about.
> Quote "I don't want a sympathetic shoulder to cry on. I want a capable,
> modern OS with capable, modern software to run on it. "
>
> Great, exercise your right to choose and do so.
I have.
> Don't simply condemn
> others choices because they are not the same as your own.
I haven't. Wouldn't think of it.
> Quote "What, prey tell, does that have to do with the Amiga?? " because
> regardless of if you are coding for execution via the real machine or
> via emulation, it is a hobby a challenge, a love or whatever you want to
> call it.
Fine. Great. Fabulous. I'm happy that you enjoy your hobby. Just
please stop cheapening my experience of the Amiga by spreading bullshit
about it.
> Quote "The "confines of the original system" don't perform to the
> expectations of todays users. "
>
> How would you know? Going to speak for the entire community?
People have voted with their feet.
> I have no
> use of a GUI and mostly rely on terminal apps....whilst the majority of
> COMPIZ users are celebrating Gnome or KDE or others if I have to use a
> GDE I opt for Xfce. Its called individuals needs/wants and as I say
> above personal choice.
You have no use for a GUI? The single most revolutionary innovation the
Amiga brought to computing industry was its GUI. The Amiga's GUI was
its reason for success. It left the likes of Microsoft and Apple
scrambling to catch up. And you have no use for it?? Curious.
> Quote "f you're happy running 3rd party band aids then good for you. I
> want a system that isn't held together with duct tape and bubblegum. "
>
> I'll take back what I previously said, you cant be a Vista user then. XP?
Had you actually read what I posted instead of deliberately trying to
make this thread difficult to follow then you would already know the
answer to that question.
> Not really relevant to the Amiga debate
Ya, no shit!
> "I am being silly for wanting my Amiga to be useful?? Please elaborate. "
>
> No, you are being silly because you hadnt investigated AROS properly and
> noticed the many FOSS ports. You may be using a FOSS package
> now....ever heard of Firefox? So if AROS is having ports of FOSS and is
> available for the Amiga then I'd suggest theres a potential for a future
> of many great pieces of software.
Again: AROS <> Amiga, FOSS <> Amiga. Focus!
> Quote "
> I am a member of an very large group of former users who left because
> the Amiga failed to perform to their expectations. A group, I might
> add, that *vastly* out-numbers this "still active Amiga userbase" you
> refer to."
>
> Marvelous. So why do you still visit. Why do you still care? Even if
> there were only 5 users left in the world why is it such an issue to you?
I care because the Amiga holds a sentimental place in my heart and I
hate to see disrespectful punks like you and TerryTroll spoil that for
me and the many thousands of others who share my feelings.
> Quote "You like playing with dead things and you think *I* need to grow
> up?? Look, I'm not criticizing your hobby in the least. All I ask is
> that you stop claiming the Amiga to be something that it clearly isn't.
> "
>
> You dont know when to stop do you? or is it simply that you consider
> the Amiga a living thing for your childish remark to be possible?
> I would ask you to quote where I have said the Amiga is something it
> isnt.....all I've said is that some people still enjoy coding on it for
> a hobby...and for that reason it is still "alive"
<quote>
...it is still "alive"
</quote>
> So you are from a large group of ex - Amiga users? Since you've taken
> the time to cheapen others interests
I have done nothing of the sort.
> why not tell us what the "all
> knowing" Gary is using now after he left the Amiga platform.
If you really want to know then why didn't you read my previous post?
> I will wrap it up here since you are not reading my posts properly.
IOW, you haven't got a response to my argument so you are now going to
run away.
> You
> keep asking what does this have to do with the Amiga....AROS is for the
> Amiga.
F O C U S !
--
Gary Beeton
Goblin
Ok, if you prefer I will leave the thread intact (although anyone
interested can simply manually go through it instead of a list of me
quoting you quoting me..) Makes no odds.
Quote "I care because the Amiga holds a sentimental place in my heart
and I hate to see disrespectful punks like you and TerryTroll spoil that
for me and the many thousands of others who share my feelings. "
Liar. All Ive said is that people are entitled to choice and that you
have no place declaring something "dead" in the face of Amiga
enthusiasts still posting.
In respect of myself, you will see that my only involvement with the
Amiga scene is the emulation project I am working on. I've never said
the Amiga was still alive nor have I tried to promote it as anything
other than something which there are still people enjoying (albeit via
emu or the real thing) Please dont be a liar. If you wish to claim
that I am some sort of Amiga champion, at least see my views on my blog
(which I believe has only mentioned the Amiga in respect of the UAE
project and WINE) I think I may have had a couple of conversations about
the Amiga on #boycottnovell but they lasted a few minutes max. The only
reason I recently subscribed to the Amiga group was to find links to
other Amiga projects and to give idea's for mine.
I don't run an Amiga platform (see my sig) I am not suggesting that the
specs of the Amiga are in anyway comparable to modern systems. What I
was saying was people can use what they please and someone like you
certainly does not have the authority to tell them otherwise. Its
called freedom of choice.
It could have been a sensible discussion until you went down a childish
route, so I extend the same courtesy that I did to Clocky, you may have
the last word. You've offered nothing but a list of reasons why YOU
think the machine is "dead" like I said before, its a moot point because
regardless of your posts there are still people who champion the system.
You claim a love of the system as some sort of justification to your
tirades, so my advice to you is simply unsubscribe from the newsgroup.
I for example believe MONO is a patent trap, rather than get annoyed by
reading messages by champions of it, I simply avoid those forums.
You say "focus" in the face of your own childish "necro" joke?
Please be my guest to have the last word.
Goblin
interested can simply manually go through it instead of a list of me
quoting you quoting me..) Makes no odds.
Quote "I care because the Amiga holds a sentimental place in my heart
and I hate to see disrespectful punks like you and TerryTroll spoil that
for me and the many thousands of others who share my feelings. "
Liar. All Ive said is that people are entitled to choice and that you
have no place declaring something "dead" in the face of Amiga
enthusiasts still posting.
In respect of myself, you will see that my only involvement with the
Amiga scene is the emulation project I am working on. I've never said
the Amiga was still "alive" (your words) nor have I tried to promote it
as anything other than something which there are still people enjoying
(albeit via emu or the real thing) which means that the platform,
rightly or wrongly is still going. Please dont be a liar. If you wish
to claim that I am some sort of Amiga champion, at least see my views on
my blog (which I believe has only mentioned the Amiga in respect of the
UAE project and WINE) I think I may have had a couple of conversations
about the Amiga on #boycottnovell but they lasted a few minutes max.
The only reason I recently subscribed to the Amiga group was to find
links to other Amiga projects and to give idea's for mine.
I don't run an Amiga platform (see my sig) I am not suggesting that the
specs of the Amiga are in anyway comparable to modern systems. What I
was saying was people can use what they please and someone like you
certainly does not have the authority to tell them otherwise. Its
called freedom of choice.
It could have been a sensible discussion until you went down a childish
route, so I extend the same courtesy that I did to Clocky, you may have
the last word. You've offered nothing but a list of reasons why YOU
think the machine is "dead" like I said before, its a moot point because
regardless of your posts there are still people who champion the system.
You claim a love of the system as some sort of justification to your
tirades, so my advice to you is simply unsubscribe from the newsgroup. I
for example believe MONO is a patent trap, rather than get annoyed by
reading messages by champions of it, I simply avoid those forums.
You say "focus" in the face of your own childish "necro" joke?
Please be my guest to have the last word.
--
Gary Beeton
> Ok, if you prefer I will leave the thread intact (although anyone
> interested can simply manually go through it instead of a list of me
> quoting you quoting me..) Makes no odds.
You're doing it again. Why do you insist on double-quoting stuff out of
context? Is that the only way you can make your argument appear to make
sense?
> Quote "I care because the Amiga holds a sentimental place in my heart
> and I hate to see disrespectful punks like you and TerryTroll spoil that
> for me and the many thousands of others who share my feelings. "
>
> Liar.
How so?
> All Ive said is that people are entitled to choice
Please show me where I have tried to deny anybody that choice.
> and that you
> have no place declaring something "dead" in the face of Amiga
> enthusiasts still posting.
It's a simple observation. Nothing menacing, nothing threatening,
nothing that might be construed as denying anybody their choice nor
their opinion. Just an observation of the facts.
> In respect of myself, you will see that my only involvement with the
> Amiga scene is the emulation project I am working on.
I see. So you have no interest whatsoever in the Amiga yet you come in
here claiming that I have somehow denied you the *right* to show some
interest, should the whim arise.
> I've never said
> the Amiga was still "alive" (your words)
Actually those are your words. I quoted you directly. That would be
obvious if you weren't trying so hard to cover your tracks.
> nor have I tried to promote it
> as anything other than something which there are still people enjoying
> (albeit via emu or the real thing) which means that the platform,
> rightly or wrongly is still going.
The platform isn't "going", it's being dragged.
> Please dont be a liar.
You still haven't explained what it is I supposedly have lied about.
> If you wish
> to claim that I am some sort of Amiga champion,
That I most definitely do NOT claim.
> at least see my views on
> my blog (which I believe has only mentioned the Amiga in respect of the
> UAE project and WINE) I think I may have had a couple of conversations
> about the Amiga on #boycottnovell but they lasted a few minutes max. The
> only reason I recently subscribed to the Amiga group was to find links
> to other Amiga projects and to give idea's for mine.
I have no interest in any of your non-Amiga discussions. And since you
have no Amiga interests I have absolutely positively no interest in your
blog.
> I don't run an Amiga platform (see my sig) I am not suggesting that the
> specs of the Amiga are in anyway comparable to modern systems. What I
> was saying was people can use what they please and someone like you
> certainly does not have the authority to tell them otherwise. Its
> called freedom of choice.
You have trouble enough putting words in your own mouth, so please don't
try putting words in mine. I never once stated nor implied that people
don't have the freedom to choose their own hobby. If you choose to flog
a dead system (hypothetically speaking obviously) then bully for you.
> It could have been a sensible discussion until you went down a childish
> route, so I extend the same courtesy that I did to Clocky, you may have
> the last word. You've offered nothing but a list of reasons why YOU
> think the machine is "dead" like I said before, its a moot point because
> regardless of your posts there are still people who champion the system.
If by "champion the system" you mean they nail it to the perch and then
say 'Look, it moved!' when they hit the side of the box, then yes,
people still champion the system.
> You claim a love of the system as some sort of justification to your
> tirades, so my advice to you is simply unsubscribe from the newsgroup.
Unlike you I actually give a shit about the Amiga, so perhaps you should
follow your own advice.
> Please be my guest to have the last word.
That was your last word? Promise?
--
Gary Beeton
Vince
You're wasting your time with these two Goblin, they've been hanging
around this channel for years and trashing everyone who has ever tried
to say the same as you are now. I find it utterly amazing that these
people can have so much animosity for a wonderful retro platform as the
Amiga. I often wonder when I visit and see the same old people having
the same old arguments (which often end up with childish insults) what
do they have against people's hobbies that is so frightening?
Ex Amiga user in the happy Fido days :)
Creativity makes us human! following the pack makes us no better than sheep!
Gary Beeton
> You're wasting your time with these two Goblin, they've been hanging
> around this channel for years and trashing everyone who has ever tried
> to say the same as you are now.
What else would you expect me to do when these people talk such
nonsense? Prostrate myself before them and praise the bullshit? The
Amiga deserves better than that.
> I find it utterly amazing that these
> people can have so much animosity for a wonderful retro platform as the
> Amiga.
I have no animosity for the platform whatsoever. Just the opposite.
It's morons like TerryTroll who give the Amiga a bad name that I have
animosity toward. If you actually read any of my posts you'd realize that.
> I often wonder when I visit and see the same old people having
> the same old arguments (which often end up with childish insults) what
> do they have against people's hobbies that is so frightening?
None whatsoever. And again, please try reading my posts before flaming me.
--
Gary Beeton
anamigan
> Vince wrote:
>> You're wasting your time with these two Goblin, they've been hanging
>> around this channel for years and trashing everyone who has ever tried
>> to say the same as you are now.
> What else would you expect me to do when these people talk such
> nonsense? Prostrate myself before them and praise the bullshit? The
> Amiga deserves better than that.
You could just do the honourable thing and just STFU.
>> I find it utterly amazing that these
>> people can have so much animosity for a wonderful retro platform as the
>> Amiga.
> I have no animosity for the platform whatsoever. Just the opposite.
> It's morons like TerryTroll who give the Amiga a bad name that I have
> animosity toward. If you actually read any of my posts you'd realize that.
You're such a wank Beeton Troll - copy cat. slanderer and stick in the
mud all
at once.
>> I often wonder when I visit and see the same old people having
>> the same old arguments (which often end up with childish insults) what
>> do they have against people's hobbies that is so frightening?
> None whatsoever. And again, please try reading my posts before flaming me.
I did and look where you are you slandering bastard.
Still drooling.
Terry
AmigaOne XE @933MHZ, 2G RAM, ati9250 running AOS4.1.
Clocky
> *SNIP*
>
> You're wasting your time with these two Goblin, they've been hanging
> around this channel for years and trashing everyone who has ever tried
> to say the same as you are now. I find it utterly amazing that these
> people can have so much animosity for a wonderful retro platform as
> the Amiga.
Retro being the operative work, and I certainly still enjoy using my Amiga
1200 for that very purpose and respect it's heritage to the utmost. It's the
wankstains that pretend that the current incarnation of an "Amiga" is
somehow a viable alternative to modern platforms and can't accept that it's
just a pisstake on everything that made the Amiga great.
I often wonder when I visit and see the same old people
> having the same old arguments (which often end up with childish insults)
> what
> do they have against people's hobbies that is so frightening?
I'm an Amiga retro hobbyist and proud to be just that. You hit the nail on
the head when you said that the Amiga is a retro hobbyist platform but the
new Amiga is neither retro nor is it a viable alternative to anything else.
It's a dead end and promoting it only makes the Amiga name laugable and not
the name of a once great computer that was once - a decade ahead of
anything else on the desktop. The Amiga name deserves so much better then
the joke it has become.
> Ex Amiga user in the happy Fido days :)
Ex-Amiga user? I still use my A1200 and my CD-32.
> Creativity makes us human! following the pack makes us no better than
> sheep!
Longing for a future whilst hanging onto the past only creates a stagnant
environment where nothing much happens, exactly where the Amiga is today.
What made the Amiga the creative powerhouse no longer applies since there
are much better and well supported tools and hardware available for much
less and that has been the case for around 15 years.
The Amiga is dead, long live the Amiga!
Gary Beeton
Right on cue TerryTroll jumps in with the childish insults. You were
bang on with that call, Vince!
--
Gary Beeton
anamigan
Childish insults would be about your penis size Beeton Troll, those were
just placeholders for all the garbage you've spewed in this newsgroup
after becoming insulted by someone questioning your credibility.
I could also make mention of your lack of supporters when the going
got tough and the challenge exceeded your modest capabilities but
I didn't.
Terry
Gary Beeton
> On Fri, 07 Aug 2009 08:16:35 -0600, Gary Beeton wrote:
>
>> Right on cue TerryTroll jumps in with the childish insults. You were
>> bang on with that call, Vince!
>
> Childish insults would be about your penis size Beeton Troll, those were
> just placeholders for all the garbage you've spewed in this newsgroup
> after becoming insulted by someone questioning your credibility.
Garbage or not, at least I try to keep the topic on the Amiga - a
subject that you are adept at running away from. Instead of discussing
the Amiga's merits you insist on making personal insults. Why is that,
Terry?
As for becoming insulted, dream on, troll.
> I could also make mention of your lack of supporters when the going
> got tough and the challenge exceeded your modest capabilities but
> I didn't.
You could try to mention that, but you'd get laughed out of town for
being a hypocrite.
--
Gary Beeton
anamigan
> unamigan wrote:
>> On Fri, 07 Aug 2009 08:16:35 -0600, Gary Beeton wrote:
>>> Right on cue TerryTroll jumps in with the childish insults. You were
>>> bang on with that call, Vince!
>> Childish insults would be about your penis size Beeton Troll, those were
>> just placeholders for all the garbage you've spewed in this newsgroup
>> after becoming insulted by someone questioning your credibility.
> Garbage or not, at least I try to keep the topic on the Amiga - a
> subject that you are adept at running away from. Instead of discussing
> the Amiga's merits you insist on making personal insults. Why is that,
> Terry?
Beeton Troll, you are mistaken, you are dealt personal insults based on
your interaction in this newsgroup, I can handle Amiga centric issues
when
they arise quite separately from that. Remember I even use one daily.
> As for becoming insulted, dream on, troll.
The record shows that when you were asked to put up or shut up you
went beserk. Even such trolls as Noel managed to rise to the challenge.
>> I could also make mention of your lack of supporters when the going
>> got tough and the challenge exceeded your modest capabilities but
>> I didn't.
> You could try to mention that, but you'd get laughed out of town for
> being a hypocrite.
Again Beeton Troll, the record shows something completely different.
Back under your bridge troll, begone.
Terry
Gary Beeton
> On Fri, 07 Aug 2009 18:00:39 -0600, Gary Beeton wrote:
>
>> Garbage or not, at least I try to keep the topic on the Amiga - a
>> subject that you are adept at running away from. Instead of discussing
>> the Amiga's merits you insist on making personal insults. Why is that,
>> Terry?
>
> Beeton Troll, you are mistaken, you are dealt personal insults based on
> your interaction in this newsgroup, I can handle Amiga centric issues
> when
> they arise quite separately from that. Remember I even use one daily.
Prove it. This is c.s.AMIGA.ADVOCACY. Advocate it.
>> As for becoming insulted, dream on, troll.
>
> The record shows that when you were asked to put up or shut up you
> went beserk. Even such trolls as Noel managed to rise to the challenge.
I challenge you to show me that record.
>> You could try to mention that, but you'd get laughed out of town for
>> being a hypocrite.
>
> Again Beeton Troll, the record shows something completely different.
Again, show me that record. If you can. If you dare.
> Back under your bridge troll, begone.
But you won't. Or rather you can't. You can't even get your 'troll'
analogy straight. Backing up your bullshit assertions is way beyond
your ability. No, you'll either run away or sling some more of your
famous fabricated personal insults. Those are the only two things are
any good at.
--
Gary Beeton
Anti Vigilante
> If MS stop selling and supporting XP then it will be dead, just like
> AOS. Why is that so hard to accept?
Ding ding ding. We now have positive proof that Beeton is a crusty
institutionalist weenie.
He needs Big Corp to keep Teh Product on Teh Respirator.
> Sure, lots of people are interested in old, defunct crap. Good for
> them. Just so long as they *understand* that it is old, defunct crap.
Old? Why's it constantly being reimplemented?
Defunct? It still works.
Crap? If I had REBOL and datatypes on my Debian system (I don't use
*buntu, though I do appreciate their community) I'd be hysterically
happy.
> Then by your own definition the Amiga is long dead. I could find 10
> people who have never heard of Amiga for every one that has.
Yeah and I'm sure most people don't know that a nuclear power reactor is
just an overgrown steam engine.
There should be a thread just for up n coming apps, support, and
purchase.
Oh and by the way, you're looking through the silly can I buy it filter.
Half the stuff you complain about not being able to buy are either
compilable or downloadable.
When NATAMI hits the streets it will be serious business.
Gary Beeton
>> If MS stop selling and supporting XP then it will be dead, just like
>> AOS. Why is that so hard to accept?
>
> Ding ding ding. We now have positive proof that Beeton is a crusty
> institutionalist weenie.
>
> He needs Big Corp to keep Teh Product on Teh Respirator.
LOL. Just because you ain't got none, that doesn't mean that support is
a bad thing.
>> Sure, lots of people are interested in old, defunct crap. Good for
>> them. Just so long as they *understand* that it is old, defunct crap.
>
> Old? Why's it constantly being reimplemented?
Several years ago AOS was ported to operate on a different (now
geriatric) processor. Other than that AOS hasn't changed significantly
from AOS3.0. It's a dinosaur.
> Defunct? It still works.
You like to play with dead things. Bully for you.
> Crap? If I had REBOL and datatypes on my Debian system (I don't use
> *buntu, though I do appreciate their community) I'd be hysterically
> happy.
It must be nice to be so easily amused.
>> Then by your own definition the Amiga is long dead. I could find 10
>> people who have never heard of Amiga for every one that has.
>
> Yeah and I'm sure most people don't know that a nuclear power reactor is
> just an overgrown steam engine.
Your point?
> There should be a thread just for up n coming apps, support, and
> purchase.
If there was it would every bit as dead as the rest of the Amiga threads.
> Oh and by the way, you're looking through the silly can I buy it filter.
Why is that silly?? What use is something if you can't get your hands
on it?
> Half the stuff you complain about not being able to buy are either
> compilable or downloadable.
Please show some examples.
> When NATAMI hits the streets it will be serious business.
Sigh... yet more unfulfilled Amiga pipe dreams.
--
Gary Beeton