The History Of The Amiga

6 views
Skip to first unread message

George Noel

unread,
May 17, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/17/97
to

I managed to pick up this little gem of Amiga history lately and it is a
very good watch. It covers how the Amiga was created from 1983 onwards to
the point where Commodore buys it out and releases the A1000. It has lots
of great pictures, conversations and information from the Original Amiga
Team (including Jay Miner, Carl Sassenrath, RJ Mical, Dale Luck, Dave
Needle etc.) and has some very funny parts and very interesting background
information.

Such goodies are revealed as how the Guru Meditation Error came about,
that Mitchy (Jay Miner's dog) was really "The Father Of The Amiga",
previous names of the chips Denise and Paula, why Amiga was chosen for the
name, how and when the Boing! Ball demo was coded and where the noise for
its bouncing came from, that the working name of the Amiga was called the
Lorraine and why it was named that, a picture of a Joy Board, the battle
of Atari trying to buyout Amiga Inc., the previous name of Amiga Inc., how
the Amiga went from a proposed games machine to a computer and how the
definate addition of the expansion (which Commodore was originally
reluctant about) port is what enabled the Amiga to still be around today,
problems with Commodore being cheap, how Jay wanted the Amiga to start off
with 512k of memory right away but Commodore thought 512k ram was too
expensive and how Dave needle showed Commodore how to implement 256k but
allow the addition of another 256k later and lots of other behind the
scene stories, anecdotes and testamonials as to why each member wanted to
work for Amiga Inc. and that it wasn't only a job, but it was them chasing
a dream and to set out to change the world.

I managed to pick this up from Maxximum Video that recently advertised
here on Usenet for having a bunch of old Amiga stuff they want to clear
out to make way for new stuff. They were selling it for fairly cheap so I
couldn't resist. It wasn't as long as I thought it would be but it is of a
very good quality and all done on an Amiga 2000. Too bad they only have 2
copies left.. it was the only place I have ever seen lately advertising
that they still have it.

Dale Larson showed interest in possibly picking up the rights to it but he
couldn't track down the members of the company that did it for Amiga World
and that with the slow sales of Dave Haynie's "The Deathbed Vigil" that he
didn't think it would be worth it nowadays anyways. I think it would be
worth it and I also think there is plenty of room to do a History Of The
Amiga 2 and 3 and 4 etc.

A great collector's item, I must say.

____________________________________________________________________________
|C= C=| For | Such giants are these! Great shoulders |CD32 /// |
| |Jay Miner -> bear so many. I stand among them. |A500 /// |
| 64c | RIP | - Dave Haynie | /// |
| |_________|___________________________________________|\\\///3000|
|C= C=| gn...@plato.ucs.mun.ca or geo...@garfield.cs.mun.ca| \XX/A1000|
|---------|-----------------------------------------------------|----------|
| CMD | Euripides - Never that which is shall die! |Amiga Int.|
|_________|_____________________________________________________|__________|

Ari Ukkonen

unread,
May 17, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/17/97
to

George Noel <gn...@morgan.ucs.mun.ca> wrote in article
<5ljrmr$k...@coranto.ucs.mun.ca>...

> I managed to pick up this little gem of Amiga history lately and it is a
> very good watch. It covers how the Amiga was created from 1983 onwards to
> the point where Commodore buys it out and releases the A1000. It has lots
> of great pictures, conversations and information from the Original Amiga
> Team (including Jay Miner, Carl Sassenrath, RJ Mical, Dale Luck, Dave
> Needle etc.) and has some very funny parts and very interesting background
> information.
[snip]

> Dale Larson showed interest in possibly picking up the rights to it but he
> couldn't track down the members of the company that did it for Amiga World
> and that with the slow sales of Dave Haynie's "The Deathbed Vigil" that he
> didn't think it would be worth it nowadays anyways. I think it would be
> worth it and I also think there is plenty of room to do a History Of The
> Amiga 2 and 3 and 4 etc.
>
> A great collector's item, I must say.
Why not contact Amiga International/Gateway 2000 to see if they might want to
market this along with Amiga T-shirts, Caps, mugs, stickers, mouse pads, disks
etc.. as accessories for the Amiga users in similar way to how Apple does with
their Apple logo products.

>
____________________________________________________________________________
> |C= C=| For | Such giants are these! Great shoulders |CD32 ///
|
> | |Jay Miner -> bear so many. I stand among them. |A500 ///
|
> | 64c | RIP | - Dave Haynie | ///
|
> |
|_________|___________________________________________|\\\///3000|
> |C= C=| gn...@plato.ucs.mun.ca or geo...@garfield.cs.mun.ca|
\XX/A1000|
>
|---------|-----------------------------------------------------|----------|
> | CMD | Euripides - Never that which is shall die! |Amiga
Int.|
>
|_________|_____________________________________________________|__________|
>
>
>
--
Ari Ukkonen, Consultant, CEO - ThunderSoft Consulting Services.
Reachable at: (250) 385-3994, Cellular (250) 812-3515
Reply-To: ariuk...@tnet.net
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Amiga CD32+SX1 6 MB '020, Amiga 2000HD 1 MB CHIP KS2.0 49 MB HD
NEC Ready 9522 P100 Mhz, 16 MB, 1.6 gig HD, 4X CD, MPEG 1 MB 64bit PCI

Visit my homepages at:http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Park/7481/
and http://members.tripod.com/~Ukkonen/

Jack andrews

unread,
May 17, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/17/97
to

George Noel <gn...@morgan.ucs.mun.ca> wrote:
: I managed to pick up this little gem of Amiga history lately and it is a


: very good watch. It covers how the Amiga was created from 1983 onwards to

Hi George,

Thought I'd post this little gem from the Aminet, (not sure who wrote it,)
but anyway:


Jay Miner Interview Pasadena, September 1992.

The name badge says it all, Jay Miner, VIP, Father of the Amiga. During my
recent jaunt to the A4000 launch in Los Angeles, I was lucky enough to meet
and talk to Jay as he cast his fatherly eye over the next generation of the
architecture he created all those years ago. We talked and ate as he
reiterated the fascinating history of the secret project that resulted in the
birth of a remarkable machine, which has survived mainly because of his
foresight and supreme effort. It was all far from plain sailing, however,
and plenty of skullduggery was afoot from a number of parties, not least the
design team themselves!

The story about the Amiga's genesis has been told before, but it is only
relatively recently that Jay and Commodore have been seeing eye to eye about
the machine and its evolution. Also, there are many little anecdotes untold
before now...

Jay:

"The story starts in the early 1980`s with a company not originally called
Amiga, but Hi Toro, which was started by Dave Morris, our president, but
before all that I used to work with Atari and I wanted to do a 68000 machine
with them. We had just finished the Atari 800 box and they were not about to
spend another umpteen dollars on research for a 16-bit machine and the
processor chip itself cost $100 apiece. RAM was also real expensive and you
need twice as much. They couldn't see the writing on the wall and they just
said "No", so I quit!".

Jay Miner is not a man to say "No" to, and it's quite clear that Atari must
still be regretting their myopic decision. Anyway, Jay still held the
concept of an all-powerful 16-bit machine but the bills had to be paid.

"I went to a chip company called Xymos as I knew the guy who started it. He
gave me some stock and it looked like an interesting startup company (I've
worked for a lot of new companies). Going back to Atari, Larry Caplan was
one of the top programmers on the Atari 2600 video game. Him and the other
programmers wanted a pay rise, or at least a small royalty, a nickel per
cartridge in fact, on the software that was selling like crazy. Atari was
making a fortune and they said "No" so they all said "Goodbye" and they went
off and started a little company called Activision. Larry rang me up about
two years later in early '82 and said he wasn't happy at Activision and
suggested we start up a company. I had a lot of stock in Xymos and suggested
we get some outside finance from back East. We hired a little office on
Scott Boulevard, Santa Clara and they got a Texas millionaire to put up some
money. He liked the idea of a new video game company which is what Larry
Caplan wanted to do. He was going to do the software. I had an idea about
designing a games machine that was expandable to a real computer and he
though that was a great idea but didn't tell any of his investors. I moved
to Santa Clara from Xymos. They were still called Hi Toro but the investors
wern't too keen so they chose "Amiga" and I didn't like it much - I thought
using a Spanish name wasn't such a good move. I was wrong!"

The design team at Hi Toro/Amiga was assembled from a bunch of people over
the next few months. Jay says that they were looking for people not just
interested in a job, but with a passion for the Amiga (codenamed Lorraine
after the president's wife) and the immense potential it offered.

"We worked out a deal whereby I got a salary and some stock and I also got to
bring my dog Mitchy into work every day. Dave did reserve the right to go
back on that one if anyone else objected but Mitchy was very popular."

I asked Jay to sum up what it was like to work on the Amiga:

"The great things about working on the Amiga? Number one I was allowed to
take my dog to work and that set the tone for the whole atmosphere of the
place. It was more than just companionship with Mitchy - the fact that she
was there meant that the other people wouldn't be too critical of some of
those we hired, who were quite frankly weird. There were guys coming to work
in purple tights and pink bunny slippers. Dale Luck looked like your average
off-the-street homeless hippy with long hair and was pretty laid back. In
fact the whole group was pretty laid back. I wasn't about to say anything -
I knew talent when I saw it and even Parasseau [the "Evangelist] who spread
the word] was a bit weird in a lot of ways. The job gets done and that's all
that matters. I didn't care how solutions came about even if people were
working at home.

"There were a lot of various arguments and the way most were sorted out was
by hitting each other with the foam baseball bats. The stung a bit if you
got hit hard. There was a conflict in the fundamental design philosophy with
some like RJ Mical wanting the low cost video game (the investors side, you
might say). Others like Dale Luck and Carl Sassenrath wanted the best
computer expansion capability for the future. This battle of cost was never
ending, being internal; among us as well as with the investors and Commodore.

"You go through stages in any large project like the Amiga of thinking "This
looks great and it's going to sell really well", and then things go wrong and
you just want to quit!"

The unique spirit at Amiga was such that people worked tirelessly on their
various projects, remembering that the software was well on the way to
completion before any silicon had been pounded into the graphics chips. Carl
Sassenrath was brought in to do the operating system and was asked at the
interview "What would you like to design?". He just replied that he wanted
to do a multi-tasking operating system, and thus was born the Exec which lies
at the very heart of the Amiga. Carl has maintained his close links with
Commodore and was instrumental in designing CDTV. Incredible really that
they opted for such a sophisticated backdrop for a games machine. Already,
strange things were afoot....

"I started thinking about what we wanted to design. Right from the beginning
I wanted to do a computer like the A2000 with lots of expansion slots for
drives, a keyboard etc. I'd also read a bit about blitters and so I talked
with a friend called Ron Nicholson who was also interested in them and he
came to join us. We came up with all sorts of functions for the blitter.
Line drawing was added much later at the request of Dale Luck, one of our
software guys. This was about two weeks before the CES show where the Amiga
was unveiled. I told him we can't put that in there as the chips were nearly
done and there wasn't enough room. He fiddled about and showed me what
registers were needed, so in it went".

The chips took three designers including Jay (who did the Agnus) almost two
years to design (1982-84) and throughout this time the ever-expanding
software team were working on what became the Amiga's operating system
libraries and such like. They had a pretty tough job writing for the most
advanced, radical hardware ever conceived for a home machine, and which
didn't really exist, except for a zillion and one ideas and a white board of
obscure diagrams.

"Once you've got the design concept for the chips, all you need to do then is
pick names for the registers and tell the software people something like "I'm
going to have a register here that's going to hold the colours for this part
and it's called whatever." They can the simulate it in their software. We
then built hardware simulators called bread boards and that was a chore. We
originally did the chips using the NMOS process which has much higher current
consumption than the state of the art CMOS. I'm surprised that Commodore
haven't re-designed the chips in CMOS which is the big stumbling block to
bringing out a protable. We did that because at the time, CMOS was much
slower than NMOS and not as reliable. It's now much faster, so why are
Commodore still using NMOS for some of their chips?"

"Hold and Modify came from a trip to see flight simulators in action and I
had a kind of idea about a primitive type of virtual reality. NTSC on the
chip meant you could hold the Hue and change the luminance by only altering
four bits. When we changed to RGB I said that wasn't needed any more at it
wasn't useful and I asked the chip layout guy to take it off. He came back
and said that this would either leave a big hole in the middle of the chip or
take a three-month redesign and we couldn't do that. I didn't think anyone
would use it. I was wrong again as that has really given the Amiga its edge
in terms of the colour palette."

It was Commodore who wanted to leave things as NTSC/PAL output. We wanted to
make them RGB but monitors were so expensive in those days - IBM's and Mac's
were monochrome. I'd put the converter on the chip and this was a very low
cost way of doing things as it saved a lot of parts, but by the time
Commodore bought us, the bottom had fallen out of the video game market and
we were moving more towards a computer so Commodore agreed to finance RGB as
well.

Seeing pictures of the early Amiga, it's almost impossible to imagine that
the piles of wires and boards could eventually be reduced to something the
size of an A500. The first Agnus was three lots of eight bread boards, each
with 250 chips, and this was repeated for the other two custom chips which
were nicknamed Daphne and Portia in those days and metamorphosed into Denise
and Paula.

"Those were a nightmare to keep running with all the connections keeping
breaking down. They're still around somewhere. We hired lots of other
people to design peripherals which kept the notorious silicon valley spies
away from the office. All they could see were joysticks and they weren't too
much of a threat."

"In 1983 we made a motherboard for the breads to be plugged in, took this to
the CES show and we showed some little demos to selected people away from the
main floor. At the show itself, they wrote the bouncing ball demo and this
blew people away. They couldn't believe that all this wiring was going to be
three chips. The booming noise of the ball was Bob Parasseau hitting a foam
baseball bat against our garage door. It was sampled on an Apple ][ and the
data massaged into Amiga samples.CES was really important to us as we were
getting short of money and the response from that show really lifted the
team. We were still short of money and several re-mortgages later we managed
to keep up with the payroll. It's amazing how much it costs to pay 15 or 20
people!"

With things running desperately close, Amiga were forced to look for more
finance to keep the ball bouncing. They turned eventually to Jay's old
employer, Atari:

"Atari gave us $500,000 with the stipulation that we had one month to come to
a deal with them about the future of the Amiga chipset or pay them back, or
they got the rights. This was a dumb thing to agree to but there was no
choice."

They offered $1 per share but Amiga were hoping for much more than that. The
offer was refused and as Atari knew about the troubles of Amiga, they then
cut the offer to 85 cents a share. Commodore stepped in at the last minute
to scoop the prize from under the noses of their arch rivals and take the
Amiga for themselves, shelling out a mere $4.25 per share and installing the
team in the Los Gatos office. Jay continued the story:

"Tramiel [the president of Atari] was livid when he found out he couldn't get
his hands on the chips, as the whole idea of financing us was just to get the
chips, not the people designing them, unlike Commodore who needed to keep the
team intact. The Atari 400 and 800 [which Jay designed also] series were
great computers in their day, but you know things move on. When he didn't
get the chipset his only alternative was to design a new computer without the
custom chips so he came up with the ST. This wasn't a bad little computer
but lacked the power of the Amiga's chipset."

Tell us something we don't know, Jay!! What about MIDI, why wasn't that
included?

"Actually MIDI isn't so far away from the standard serial port on the Amiga,
and soon after the machine was released, someone came up with a tiny plug-in
box that gave you all the MIDI inputs and outputs, but Commodore refused to
manufacture and push it which was one of my big disagreements with them. If
you've got a little company doing great third party products which makes your
machine so much more competitive, you've got to support them. Commodore in
the past have been too greedy, wanting everything for themselves without
paying for it, but I think they're changing. I hope they're changing,
anyway."

The Amiga 1000 really didn't take shape until long after Commodore bought it.
The president had the idea of sliding the keyboard underneath the machine and
it took nearly a year to redesign the motherboard to fit in. Everything was
set and then Commodore decided that 512K of RAM was too much:

"They wanted a 256K machine as the 512 was too expensive. Back in those days
RAM was very pricey, but I could see it had to come down. I told them it
couldn't be done as we were too close to being finished, it would spoil the
architecture, etc, etc. Dave Needle came up with the idea of putting the
cartridge on the front which worked. I was in favour of putting sockets on
the motherboard so the user could just drop in the chips."

As events turned out, Jay's opinion was vindicated when, on release, it
became patently obvious that the machine needed the 512K to do anything
meaningful and this was the shipping form in the UK. Commodore's short
sightednes cost the world another 6 months without the Amiga, during which
time RAM prices fell anyway!

"I spent this time polishing up the software/hardware documentation, renaming
registers to be more meaningful. This was actually time well spent in the
end."

Regular readers will know that I'm always going on about how wonderful
Intuition is to work with so I asked Jay to tell me a bit about its
development.

"RJ Mical pretty much did it all himself. He was holed up for three weeks
(!) and came out once to ask Carl Sassenrath about message ports. That's it,
really! He wrote Intuition and went on to do the graphics package,
Graphicraft, as noone else could do it right. Remember the Jarvik 7 heart
animation - they actually talked to the guy and got permission to draw it,
and the animation was cycling the colour registers. A lot of quite beautiful
pseudo-animations were done that way. That's how we did the rotating pattern
of the bouncing ball. Other machines couldn't use that system".

Once all the software was done, it was time for the big release of the A1000.
Jay's reaction:

"There were a lot of compromises which I didn't like, but it was better than
it might have been if we hadn't gotten our way on a lot of things. We didn't
get our way on everything, though. The 256K RAM was a real problem. The
software people knew it was inadequate but nobody could stand up to Commodore
about it. We had to really argue to put the expansion connector on the side
and this was before the deal was finalised so we were close to sinking
everything. The lowest cost way of doing it was the edge connector and I'm
glad it got through".

"Once the A1000 was out were kind of at a loss. There was so much dealer and
developer support necessary that a large proportion of our company went into
that. We had 11 or 12 people in that and we wanted to expand, but Commodore
wouldn't let us, and in fact they made us lay off some people. We tried to
talk Commodore into building a machine with vertical slots and they
eventually came out with the A2000, but they weren't keen at first".

Once the Amiga was released, work at Los Gatos continued, but the days for
this fine, but maverick, design team were numbered.

"I was really pleased to see Commodore moving in the direction of the A2000 -
it was the first Amiga you could really tailor to your own needs and this was
one of the reasons for the success of the early Apples. We then wanted to go
onto horizontal slots, like the A3000 as that would be easier to cool and
shield - there was a design to do it but at that time the A2000 came from
Germany so that's the way we went. We wanted to do the Autoconfiguration for
the slots but Commodore weren't keen because it added 50c to the cost, so we
had a big battle with them and did it anyway. Our divisional manager from
Commodore was a guy called Rick Geiger. He was pretty good at keeping
Commodore off our backs. However, there were others who were good at
figuring out what we were up to and saying "No" all the time. Sometimes Rick
would protect us and he was trying hard to give Commodore something they
wanted badly, MS-DOS compatability. Some company promised they could deliver
a software solution but it never really worked knew he was Jewish because he
wore one of those funny little hats to work. That's no problem for me - I
didn't mind if people wore pink bunny slippers as long as the job got done.
Anyway, he promised MS-DOS on a small card to make an IBM interface. He
worked alone, and weeks went by with nothing appearing despite all the
promises which worried me a lot, and this really led to Rick's downfall. He
promised he could do it and nobody kept close enough tags on him, always a
few more weeks. Commodore started advertising and the board didn't work so
both men were canned. This was the start of the downfall for the Los Gatos
division. I've never really told this before as it was too personal but I
can't remember the designer now so it doesn't matter so much. It shows that
you need your peers looking over your work to get things right".

How important did you think PC compatability was going to be?

"Eventually Sidecar came out from Germany but there were a lot of bugs in the
software and the Los Gatos team helped with solving those. They did that
before the 2000. It's funny but I never really saw MS-DOS compatability as
being that important for the Amiga. I said at the time to Commodore "Hey,
we're different. Try to take advantage of that, not imitate or simulate
other people". We could make our commands more similar to theirs. There's a
tendancy when you're writing new software to try and be different with names
and functions, but it isn't really necessary. We could do a better job than
MS-DOS, which would have been enough with the Amiga's superior operating
system and colour resolution capabilities to take a really big bite out of
IBM. Instead they kept promising compatability and not delivering which is
worse."

After that, Commodore wanted the design team to move back East, and not
surprisingly they declined, so gradually the Los Gatos facility was closed
down and Jay left. We carried on talking about the interim period and also
about the staff recently at Commodore:

"The VP of engineering [Bill Sydnes] got canned. He designed the PC Junior
which really crashed, one of IBM's big mistakes, and gave the Amiga a window
of opportunity which Commodore failed to exploit - a little competitive
advertising would have gone a long way."

What about the overall handling of the Amiga over the years? Does it annoy
you that there are 10 times as many PCs as Amigas?

"Yeah, that really does annoy me. I don't have any financial connections
with Commodore any more so I don't get anything out of Amiga sales. Things
should have been a lot different. I still feel fatherly towards to Amiga,
more so than any of the Ataris. What frustrates me the most is that people
are missing out on something very special in the Amiga. They tell me about
their IBMs and wonderful Macs but they're still missing out".

The Toaster is a killer product over here, what do you think?

"It's a fantastic product. Commodore made a really big mistake in not
embracing the Toaster in its early days, and getting a real piece of it. I
never even envisaged it back in the design stages. TV image manipulation
just wasn't around then - I put genlock circuitry and sync signalling into
the first designs so that side of things we appreciated. I had no idea that
things like the Toaster were coming."

What would you like to see in the future?

"I'd like to see Commodore grab hold of one of these 24-bit cards like the
GVP or DMI boards and put it in as standard. The Amiga badly needs a
standardisation of high resolution 24-bit colour modes. The JPEG board from
DMI is another wonderful product which needs to be standard in high end
Amigas. They'll wait like they always do until someone else has made the
standard and try and add something in while others are going to make a bundle
of money - look at GVP. Gerard Bucas was VP of Engineering and he wasn't
doing things the way Commodore liked, so he left. He saw a chance to make
some money and look at the size of GVP - they're competing with Commodore.
The next generation Amiga needs a real time JPEG converter and 24-bit
graphics to stay ahead.

"I did get together with Lou Eggibrecht [the new VP Engineering] for about 10
minutes and I was very pleased. He promised he'd fly out to have dinner with
me and talk about the Amiga. I asked him some questions about the future
direction of the chips and got the kind of answers I was looking for - the
kind of things we've been talking about. High resolution, new architecture,
more competitive. His understanding of the present architecture was very
encouraging. I'd love to work as a consultant for them, but I don't know how
much I could contribute."

What's your opinion of the A4000?

"You know, Commodore actually gave me one today at the show - the first time
I ever got anything out of them!

Putting the IDE drive onto the A4000 motherboard was a terrible mistake -
every previous Amiga has benefitted from SCSI. I'm really tickled with the
A4000 though. I was looking at it over the last few days and thinking how
could I get to buy one of these without the wife getting to know. I have two
A2000s which are fine for the BBS stuff I do at the moment.

They've improved the chipset in the 4000, taking the colours to 256 from 8
bitplanes. The higher resolution and more colours are really fast. The
MS-DOS interface [CrossDOS] is quite nice but I'm unhappy about the SCSI and
they didn't go to full 16-bit audio, but according to Eggibrecht that's
coming soon. I'm also a little disappointed they didn't use the 040's memory
management facilities. The 3.0 operating system looks very good with
datatypes and a number of other great features. Who needs MS-DOS and
Windows?".

What about CDTV?

"CDTV is quite a nice idea, but the software has to be right. Can you think
of anything more horrible than trying to read an encyclopaedia or the Bible
on a TV, rather than a nice crisp RGB monitor? As a low cost entertainment
system it's a good viable long term project. I hope Commodore won't drop the
ball if things aren't as good initially; they can take on Philips."

What's your favourite products?

"I love the bulletin board software as that's what I'm into at the moment.
ADPro is also a fantastic program. I picked up a program called Scala and
I'd like to get into that - it's user interface is very impressive. I have a
GVP '030 accelerator and that's incredible. The hard drive on the 32-bit
card is very fast indeed - it's like a new machine".

Conclusion:

Talking with Jay Miner is one of the best experiences an Amiga owner can
have. He really is the Father of the Amiga and his passion for the machine
is so apparent. It's easy to understand the frustrations he must have at not
seeing things go exactly as he wanted, with the full potential of the machine
yet to be realised, some Aight years after its release. One has to marvel
that it is still around and selling well given its superior competition and
the natural tendancy for serious users to turn to the IBM/Mac platforms.
It's also clear that the Amiga Corporation contained one of the most
innovative design teams ever assembled, and it is so tempting to speculate
where the Amiga would be today if they had stuck together, and the efforts of
Commodore had been more constructive. Their marketing people have yet to
understand what the Amiga is truly about, and why it is so special. Trying
to sell it as a PC is wrong as it is far more than a spreadsheet, word
processing machine. Unlocking doors is what the Amiga is remarkable hardware
justice. Only time will tell if the Amiga can make the impact it is capable
of and maybe Commodore should take on board the views of the Padre.


*


Sad footnote: After suffering a long bout with a kidney illness, Jay Miner
passed during the summer of 1994. His death is mourned by all the Faithful.

The light he lit burns on.

- TBM


Jeroen T. Vermeulen

unread,
May 20, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/20/97
to

In article <5lpcp8$ao3$2...@ulke.hiMolde.no> name...@mo.himolde.no (Espen Berntsen) writes:
> George Noel (gn...@morgan.ucs.mun.ca) wrote:
> : Dale Larson showed interest in possibly picking up the rights to it but he


> : couldn't track down the members of the company that did it for Amiga World
> : and that with the slow sales of Dave Haynie's "The Deathbed Vigil" that he
>

> Slow sales??? hey, give me a place that sell the PAL vhs tapes!

You can have mine -- if you kill me first, and get there before any of my
friends come sweeping in like vultures of course.


--
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
; Jeroen T. Vermeulen \\"How are we doing?"// Yes, we use Amigas ;
;--- j...@xs4all.nl ---\\"Same as always."//-- ... --;
;jver...@wi.leidenuniv.nl \\"That bad huh?"// Got a problem with that? ;
''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
...but can my hardware bang your software?

Adrian Maggs

unread,
May 20, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/20/97
to

0n 19 May 1997 11:15:52 GMT, in article "Re: The History Of The Amiga", Espen Berntsen wrote:

> George Noel (gn...@morgan.ucs.mun.ca) wrote:
> : Dale Larson showed interest in possibly picking up the rights to it but he
> : couldn't track down the members of the company that did it for Amiga World
> : and that with the slow sales of Dave Haynie's "The Deathbed Vigil" that he
>
> Slow sales??? hey, give me a place that sell the PAL vhs tapes!

LH Publishing have them. Email la...@em.powernet.co.uk and I'm sure he'll be able
to sort you out.

--

//
\X/ Adrian

Email: adr...@uacomm.demon.co.uk
Web: http://www.uacomm.demon.co.uk

H.R. Laser

unread,
May 21, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/21/97
to

Jeroen T. Vermeulen (j...@xs4all.nl) wrote:

: In article <5lpcp8$ao3$2...@ulke.hiMolde.no> name...@mo.himolde.no (Espen Berntsen) writes:


: > George Noel (gn...@morgan.ucs.mun.ca) wrote:
: > : Dale Larson showed interest in possibly picking up the rights to it but he
: > : couldn't track down the members of the company that did it for Amiga World
: > : and that with the slow sales of Dave Haynie's "The Deathbed Vigil" that he
: >
: > Slow sales??? hey, give me a place that sell the PAL vhs tapes!

: You can have mine -- if you kill me first, and get there before any of my


: friends come sweeping in like vultures of course.


: --
: ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
: ; Jeroen T. Vermeulen \\"How are we doing?"// Yes, we use Amigas ;
: ;--- j...@xs4all.nl ---\\"Same as always."//-- ... --;
: ;jver...@wi.leidenuniv.nl \\"That bad huh?"// Got a problem with that? ;
: ''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
: ...but can my hardware bang your software?

The AmigaZone has given away about 10 copies of the Amiga World
"History of the Amiga" video tape over the course of the past
few months to winners who chose it as their prize in our Sunday
Night live chat/contest. So any of you who wanted it could have
had it for free had you joined the Zone and participated in our
contests.

The AmigaZone is more than just a "pile of files".

To learn what we're about, visit our web site. (see .sig below)

Harv | "Do you recognize the
ha...@amigazone.com | Bell of Truth when you
http://www.amigazone.com | hear it ring?"
A1200/030, A2500/060, CDTV :) | - Leon Russell


Marv B.

unread,
May 21, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/21/97
to

Good Day Harv.
so where did you get those history of amiga tapes ?
marv

+----------------------------------------------------------+
| mad...@cyberhighway.net is: 116 N.Latah |
| Marv Birkinbine Pres. Boise, Idaho 83706 |
| MAXXIMUM VIDEO CREATIONS INC. 1-888-mad-maxx |
| "YOUR AMIGA DEALER 1-208-385-9658 |
| FOR THE NEXT GENERATION" www.cyberhighway.net/~madmaxx |
+----------------------------------------------------------+


Alex

unread,
May 24, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/24/97
to

>
>
> 0n 19 May 1997 11:15:52 GMT, in article "Re: The History Of The Amiga", Espen Berntsen wrote:
>

> > George Noel (gn...@morgan.ucs.mun.ca) wrote:
> > : Dale Larson showed interest in possibly picking up the rights to it but he
> > : couldn't track down the members of the company that did it for Amiga World
> > : and that with the slow sales of Dave Haynie's "The Deathbed Vigil" that he
> >
> > Slow sales??? hey, give me a place that sell the PAL vhs tapes!
>

> LH Publishing have them. Email la...@em.powernet.co.uk and I'm sure he'll be able
> to sort you out.
>
> --
>
> //
> \X/ Adrian
>
> Email: adr...@uacomm.demon.co.uk
> Web: http://www.uacomm.demon.co.uk
>
>

> .

Marv B.

unread,
May 29, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/29/97
to

Good Day George !
Thank you for the honerable mention............
Marv

>I managed to pick up this little gem of Amiga history lately and it is a
>very good watch. It covers how the Amiga was created from 1983 onwards to

>the point where Commodore buys it out and releases the A1000. It has lots
>of great pictures, conversations and information from the Original Amiga
>Team (including Jay Miner, Carl Sassenrath, RJ Mical, Dale Luck, Dave
>Needle etc.) and has some very funny parts and very interesting background
>information.

>Such goodies are revealed as how the Guru Meditation Error came about,


>that Mitchy (Jay Miner's dog) was really "The Father Of The Amiga",
>previous names of the chips Denise and Paula, why Amiga was chosen for the
>name, how and when the Boing! Ball demo was coded and where the noise for
>its bouncing came from, that the working name of the Amiga was called the
>Lorraine and why it was named that, a picture of a Joy Board, the battle
>of Atari trying to buyout Amiga Inc., the previous name of Amiga Inc., how
>the Amiga went from a proposed games machine to a computer and how the
>definate addition of the expansion (which Commodore was originally
>reluctant about) port is what enabled the Amiga to still be around today,
>problems with Commodore being cheap, how Jay wanted the Amiga to start off
>with 512k of memory right away but Commodore thought 512k ram was too
>expensive and how Dave needle showed Commodore how to implement 256k but
>allow the addition of another 256k later and lots of other behind the
>scene stories, anecdotes and testamonials as to why each member wanted to
>work for Amiga Inc. and that it wasn't only a job, but it was them chasing
>a dream and to set out to change the world.

>I managed to pick this up from Maxximum Video that recently advertised
>here on Usenet for having a bunch of old Amiga stuff they want to clear
>out to make way for new stuff. They were selling it for fairly cheap so I
>couldn't resist. It wasn't as long as I thought it would be but it is of a
>very good quality and all done on an Amiga 2000. Too bad they only have 2

>copies left.. it was the only place I have ever seen lately advertising
>that they still have it.

>Dale Larson showed interest in possibly picking up the rights to it but he
>couldn't track down the members of the company that did it for Amiga World
>and that with the slow sales of Dave Haynie's "The Deathbed Vigil" that he

>didn't think it would be worth it nowadays anyways. I think it would be
>worth it and I also think there is plenty of room to do a History Of The
>Amiga 2 and 3 and 4 etc.

>A great collector's item, I must say.

> ____________________________________________________________________________


> |C= C=| For | Such giants are these! Great shoulders |CD32 /// |
> | |Jay Miner -> bear so many. I stand among them. |A500 /// |
> | 64c | RIP | - Dave Haynie | /// |
> | |_________|___________________________________________|\\\///3000|
> |C= C=| gn...@plato.ucs.mun.ca or geo...@garfield.cs.mun.ca| \XX/A1000|
> |---------|-----------------------------------------------------|----------|
> | CMD | Euripides - Never that which is shall die! |Amiga Int.|
> |_________|_____________________________________________________|__________|

George Noel

unread,
May 30, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/30/97
to

In article <3816.7087...@cyberhighway.net>,

Marv B. <mad...@cyberhighway.net> wrote:
>Good Day George !
>Thank you for the honerable mention............
>Marv

No problem.. I think I aided in selling the other two copies you had. :)

Edsel Richards

unread,
Jun 9, 1997, 3:00:00 AM6/9/97
to

On 29 May 1997 02:46:14 GMT, mad...@cyberhighway.net (Marv B.) wrote:
>>scene stories, anecdotes and testamonials as to why each member wanted to
>>work for Amiga Inc. and that it wasn't only a job, but it was them chasing
>>a dream and to set out to change the world.

Bummer that they ended up changing nothing! (Except making the
landfills a bit higher fuller...)


Frank Lazar

unread,
Jun 10, 1997, 3:00:00 AM6/10/97
to

In article <339d80f2...@207.14.113.2>, Ji...@ralph.net (Edsel
Richards) wrote:

Well, there are still at least 4 people using Amigas. Actually the
Amiga at least helped change the world in a few small respects. It did
for desktop video, a job almost, perhaps as much as the Macintosh did for
desktop publishing. It did put desktop video effects out of the exclusive
range of Lucas and company and made it something that high school kids
could experiment with. (in fact there are still some kids in Jersey City
at the new Science Center romping through a Mandala setup as I type :)
It's a largely unheraleded contribution, but there were those who noticed,
just like a certain small group of geeks onced gawked at a piece of work
called the Altos, something that Xerox said at the time couldn't be
produced for less than $60k big ones.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
| _ |
| We are dreamers, shapers, singers and makers. /_\ |
| We study the mysteries of laser and circuit, // \\ |
| Crystal and scanner, holographic demons, \\ //___\\ |
| And invocations of equations. \\ // \\ |
| \\__// \\ |
| These are the tools we employ. And we know... many things. \\ |
| \\ |
| | Frank Lazar http://www.interactive.net/~fmlazar | \\ |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Scott A. Cabit

unread,
Jun 11, 1997, 3:00:00 AM6/11/97
to

On Mon, 09 Jun 1997 04:06:19 GMT, Ji...@ralph.net (Edsel Richards) wrote:

> On 29 May 1997 02:46:14 GMT, mad...@cyberhighway.net (Marv B.) wrote:
> >>scene stories, anecdotes and testamonials as to why each member wanted to
> >>work for Amiga Inc. and that it wasn't only a job, but it was them chasing
> >>a dream and to set out to change the world.
>
> Bummer that they ended up changing nothing! (Except making the
> landfills a bit higher fuller...)
>

No, Amiga changed the minds hearts and souls of its users. It's the
PC that fills the landfills...

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+ Scott A. Cabit - Melbourne Florida +
+ Only Amiga makes it Possible! +
+ sac...@melb.mindspring.com +
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Odd H. Sandvik

unread,
Jun 11, 1997, 3:00:00 AM6/11/97
to

Scott A. Cabit (sac...@melb.mindspring.com) wrote:
: On Mon, 09 Jun 1997 04:06:19 GMT, Ji...@ralph.net (Edsel Richards) wrote:
: > Bummer that they ended up changing nothing! (Except making the

: > landfills a bit higher fuller...)

: No, Amiga changed the minds hearts and souls of its users. It's the
: PC that fills the landfills...

Very well said !
--
% Odd H. Sandvik %% email: od...@sn.no -+% Team AMIGA %+- -+%
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
- http://www.be.com/products/beos/beos_ds.html

George Noel

unread,
Jun 18, 1997, 3:00:00 AM6/18/97
to

In article <5nl1r4$u...@camel12.mindspring.com>,

Scott A. Cabit <sac...@melb.mindspring.com> wrote:
>On Mon, 09 Jun 1997 04:06:19 GMT, Ji...@ralph.net (Edsel Richards) wrote:
>
>> On 29 May 1997 02:46:14 GMT, mad...@cyberhighway.net (Marv B.) wrote:
>> >>scene stories, anecdotes and testamonials as to why each member wanted to
>> >>work for Amiga Inc. and that it wasn't only a job, but it was them chasing
>> >>a dream and to set out to change the world.
>>
>> Bummer that they ended up changing nothing! (Except making the
>> landfills a bit higher fuller...)

I disagree.. the Amiga changed the whole personal computer industry but no
one wants to admit to it.

> No, Amiga changed the minds hearts and souls of its users. It's the
>PC that fills the landfills...

Very true.

>+ Scott A. Cabit - Melbourne Florida +
>+ Only Amiga makes it Possible! +
>+ sac...@melb.mindspring.com +


-=*George*=-


Ben Hutchings

unread,
Jun 18, 1997, 3:00:00 AM6/18/97
to

In article <5o7vgf$err$1...@coranto.ucs.mun.ca>,

George Noel <geo...@cs.mun.ca> wrote:
>In article <5nl1r4$u...@camel12.mindspring.com>,
>Scott A. Cabit <sac...@melb.mindspring.com> wrote:
>>On Mon, 09 Jun 1997 04:06:19 GMT, Ji...@ralph.net (Edsel Richards) wrote:
>>
>>> On 29 May 1997 02:46:14 GMT, mad...@cyberhighway.net (Marv B.) wrote:
>>> >>scene stories, anecdotes and testamonials as to why each member wanted to
>>> >>work for Amiga Inc. and that it wasn't only a job, but it was them chasing
>>> >>a dream and to set out to change the world.
>>>
>>> Bummer that they ended up changing nothing! (Except making the
>>> landfills a bit higher fuller...)
>
>I disagree.. the Amiga changed the whole personal computer industry but no
>one wants to admit to it.

If it had changed the industry, it would be impossible to deny. Just
saying something you want to be true won't make it so.

>> No, Amiga changed the minds hearts and souls of its users. It's the
>>PC that fills the landfills...
>
>Very true.

The PC was and is a continuing commercial success, and new PCs are often
a better deal than old ones. With the Amiga, it usually makes more
sense to buy a second-hand machine because the new ones aren't any
different. That's why people don't throw out their old Amigas. Every
home computer was special in its own way, and had a devoted following.
Most people have forgotten all about them, and that is already happening
to the Amiga.

--
Ben Hutchings, compsci&mathmo | Save Amiga! http://www.znet.com/~colin/icoa/
email/finger m95...@ecs.ox.ac.uk | homepage http://users.ox.ac.uk/~worc0223/
Teamwork is essential - it allows you to blame someone else.

Message has been deleted

Keith Blakemore-Noble

unread,
Jun 19, 1997, 3:00:00 AM6/19/97
to

Thorsten Stocksmeier wrote:

>
> George Noel wrote:
>
> > I disagree.. the Amiga changed the whole personal computer industry but no
> > one wants to admit to it.
>
> Do a reality check. A big one.

OK.

<pauses for a moment to take a reality check...>

Right. Done that. Now, let's see, where were we? Ah yes, George's
comment.

Well, sorry to disappoint you Thorsten, but he is right.

Never mind. You just go on denying it, if it makes you feel better.
You know, like ostritches with their heads in sand.

Maybe, just maybe, if you wish REALLY hard, then the truth will change
to your way of thinking. Don't hold your breath though.

Meanwhile, the rest of us can get on with life in "reality".

TTFN,
Keith.

George Noel

unread,
Jun 21, 1997, 3:00:00 AM6/21/97
to

In article <5o9bu2$9...@news.ox.ac.uk>,

Ben Hutchings <worc...@sable.ox.ac.uk> wrote:
>In article <5o7vgf$err$1...@coranto.ucs.mun.ca>,
>George Noel <geo...@cs.mun.ca> wrote:
>>In article <5nl1r4$u...@camel12.mindspring.com>,
>>Scott A. Cabit <sac...@melb.mindspring.com> wrote:
>>>On Mon, 09 Jun 1997 04:06:19 GMT, Ji...@ralph.net (Edsel Richards) wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 29 May 1997 02:46:14 GMT, mad...@cyberhighway.net (Marv B.) wrote:
>>>> >>scene stories, anecdotes and testamonials as to why each member wanted to
>>>> >>work for Amiga Inc. and that it wasn't only a job, but it was them chasing
>>>> >>a dream and to set out to change the world.
>>>>
>>>> Bummer that they ended up changing nothing! (Except making the
>>>> landfills a bit higher fuller...)
>>
>>I disagree.. the Amiga changed the whole personal computer industry but no
>>one wants to admit to it.
>
>If it had changed the industry, it would be impossible to deny. Just
>saying something you want to be true won't make it so.

But it IS so and yes, everyone wants to deny it OR it will give
credibility to the Amiga as having done something good. From a business
point of view you do not want to admit that the competition has a better
product so what do you do? Downplay it and then do the same things
yourself and call it revolutionary (and promote it). Microsoft does this
the best.

Why do you think Jean-Louis Gasse was praising the Amiga when he was
trying to get developers and users to switch over to the Be camp but once
he realized someone had bought the Amiga and was doing something with it
and being on a MS-NBC show called The Site all of a sudden started saying
it was a "Failed Computer". Gassee even admitted the Amiga had Apple and
IBM "Shaking in their boots". What did they try to do since then,
including Atari and even to a degree Microsoft... be like the Amiga.

I still stand by my opinion that PC clones etc. are STILL evolving into
what the Amiga was back in '85 while the Amiga fore-fathers want it to
evolve into what PC clones are today. I think it is a big mistake.. I
would like an in between solution that hasn't been invented yet.

>>> No, Amiga changed the minds hearts and souls of its users. It's the
>>>PC that fills the landfills...
>>
>>Very true.
>
>The PC was and is a continuing commercial success, and new PCs are often

The PC was NOT a commercial success in the past.. it had the business
market, period. Commodore, Apple and Atari had the home, education, creative
and arts market while still delving into the business section slightly.

The PC never really started becoming a "commercial success" until around
1990.

>a better deal than old ones.

You can get old PCs for dirt cheap, not that they would be any useful in
today's environment. To UPGRADE those old ones though is more expensive
then buying a new computer so yes, in that case a new computer is the
better deal.

> With the Amiga, it usually makes more
>sense to buy a second-hand machine because the new ones aren't any
>different.

Sure but then you start to wonder why the Amiga market is going downhill
if everyone keeps buying second hand machines? I'll admit I never bought a
NEW, out of the shop Amiga but I AM looking forward to doing so even with
the state of the Amiga market.

> That's why people don't throw out their old Amigas. Every

That's not the only reason. I think I should know. :)

>home computer was special in its own way, and had a devoted following.

True.

>Most people have forgotten all about them, and that is already happening
>to the Amiga.

Oh they haven't forgotten about them, they just don't use them anymore. In
the case of the Amiga, due to Commodore, a lot of people never even heard
of it in the first place. Again, it wasn't the hardware that killed
the Amiga (though there were some bad moves), it was mangement decisions
and marketing that has nearly killed the Amiga.

>--
>Ben Hutchings, compsci&mathmo | Save Amiga! http://www.znet.com/~colin/icoa/

^^^^^^^^^^ Should be "Save AmigaOS".

____________________________________________________________________________
|C= C=| For | Such giants are these! Great shoulders |CD32 /// |
| |Jay Miner -> bear so many. I stand among them. |A500 /// |
| 64c | RIP | - Dave Haynie | /// |
| |_________|___________________________________________|\\\///3000|
|C= C=| gn...@plato.ucs.mun.ca or geo...@garfield.cs.mun.ca| \XX/A1000|

| | http://www.cs.mun.ca/~georgen |Team AMIGA|

George Noel

unread,
Jun 21, 1997, 3:00:00 AM6/21/97
to

In article <5obi7v$ohc$1...@varus.teuto.de>,
Thorsten Stocksmeier <fla...@teuto.de> wrote:

>George Noel wrote:
>
>> I disagree.. the Amiga changed the whole personal computer industry but no
>> one wants to admit to it.
>
>Do a reality check. A big one.

I did.. it is in my BIG signature.

> // Thorsten "Flavour" Stocksmeier
>\X/ *FFNews* *IconWin* *Argue*
>
>Color of the day: 205 92 92 indian red

What color is the sky in YOUR world?

Byron Montgomerie

unread,
Jun 21, 1997, 3:00:00 AM6/21/97
to

Thorsten Stocksmeier <fla...@teuto.de> wrote:
>George Noel wrote:

>> I disagree.. the Amiga changed the whole personal computer industry but no
>> one wants to admit to it.

>Do a reality check. A big one.

"Psst, hey Bob, you know that new VLSI design modification I just proposed?"

"Yeah"

"Well, don't tell anybody, but I got the idea from that Amiga computer from
the 80's."

"I'm surprised you admitted to that."

"I didn't want to. The men in black have me targeted as a subversive."

...

"Don't worry friends, there is more to come..." :)

Regards,

BM


Terry Palfrey

unread,
Jun 23, 1997, 3:00:00 AM6/23/97
to

In article <628.711...@nfld.com>,
by...@nfld.com (Byron Montgomerie) writes:
>
> Msg-ID: <628.711...@nfld.com>
> References: <5obi7v$ohc$1...@varus.teuto.de>
> Posted: 21 Jun 97 01:38:15 -300

Oooh, so you have decided to expand on the idea of co-processors
by recombining their functions on an integrated chip. Smart.

The AMIGA was a different mindset.

Really.

Multiple screens, multiple environments. Who else was doing this?

Macs? With those teeny tiny high res screens?
Pc's with 286's and 386's running dos and CGA?
Mouse manipulated GUI's with Iconic interfaces and entire CLI
Shells modelled on unix examples.

Ah, Mac's had menus and icons. No Shells.
Pc's had shells <muuuhahahahahahahahahahaha>. No GUI. No Mouse.

Dedicated co-processors for I/O, graphics, sounds, controllers
that allowed the CPU to concentrate on the program.

All of this in a 32 bit fully pre-emptive multitasking environment
at a consumer price point.

You want to know why clones and macs are disparaged, it's because
they have yet to catch up with that mindset. Sure now you have
cpu horsepower, graphics and soundcards, expansion capability but
when you go to use it like an AMIGA you realise that no one really
gets it. Ask any AMIGAN that uses high powered machines from Alphas
to SGI's and Dual Pent Pro's - sure the horsepower is there and the
software is to die for in some cases it still doesn't match the
mindset that the AMIGA created.

Terry

Karl Thomas

unread,
Jun 23, 1997, 3:00:00 AM6/23/97
to

George Noel <gn...@morgan.ucs.mun.ca> wrote in article
<5ofsji$c5t$1...@coranto.ucs.mun.ca>...

> Why do you think Jean-Louis Gasse was praising the Amiga when he was
> trying to get developers and users to switch over to the Be camp but once
> he realized someone had bought the Amiga and was doing something with it
> and being on a MS-NBC show called The Site all of a sudden started saying
> it was a "Failed Computer". Gassee even admitted the Amiga had Apple and
> IBM "Shaking in their boots". What did they try to do since then,
> including Atari and even to a degree Microsoft... be like the Amiga.

JLG the same genius who when he worked at Apple didn't want them to license
the technology? -- yep a real visionary.


Karl Thomas

unread,
Jun 25, 1997, 3:00:00 AM6/25/97
to


Terry Palfrey <Terry_...@mindlink.bc.ca> wrote in article
<92225-8...@mindlink.bc.ca>...


> Multiple screens, multiple environments. Who else was doing this?
>
> Macs? With those teeny tiny high res screens?
> Pc's with 286's and 386's running dos and CGA?
> Mouse manipulated GUI's with Iconic interfaces and entire CLI
> Shells modelled on unix examples.

You and I both know that in 1986 all personal computers had to make a
tradeoff between high-resolution and high bit depth. For the market that
the Mac was aimed at it made since to choose the former. Besides, it was
only a year later in 1987 that the Mac II came out with faster
non-interlaced high-resolution graphics than stock Amigas have today.

> Dedicated co-processors for I/O, graphics, sounds, controllers
> that allowed the CPU to concentrate on the program.
>

The very first Mac had dedicated sound hardware. The Mac II which only
came out a year later had dedicated graphics hardware and other i/o
controllers. The Mac II, unlike the Amiga, wasn't stuck with only the
graphics hardware that Apple put on the motherboard. Even today, Amiga
users have problems with third party graphics hardware not being compatible
with software.


> You want to know why clones and macs are disparaged, it's because
> they have yet to catch up with that mindset. Sure now you have
> cpu horsepower, graphics and soundcards, expansion capability but
> when you go to use it like an AMIGA you realise that no one really
> gets it. Ask any AMIGAN that uses high powered machines from Alphas
> to SGI's and Dual Pent Pro's - sure the horsepower is there and the
> software is to die for in some cases it still doesn't match the
> mindset that the AMIGA created.

What mindset is that? Integrating a lot of proprietary hardware on the
motherboard that can't easily and compatibly be upgraded?


ARAMI

unread,
Jun 28, 1997, 3:00:00 AM6/28/97
to

On 25 Jun 1997 13:16:39 GMT, "Karl Thomas" <kath...@nyx.nox.net>
wrote:

>
>
>Terry Palfrey <Terry_...@mindlink.bc.ca> wrote in article
><92225-8...@mindlink.bc.ca>...

<snip>

>
>> You want to know why clones and macs are disparaged, it's because
>> they have yet to catch up with that mindset. Sure now you have
>> cpu horsepower, graphics and soundcards, expansion capability but
>> when you go to use it like an AMIGA you realise that no one really
>> gets it. Ask any AMIGAN that uses high powered machines from Alphas
>> to SGI's and Dual Pent Pro's - sure the horsepower is there and the
>> software is to die for in some cases it still doesn't match the
>> mindset that the AMIGA created.
>
>What mindset is that? Integrating a lot of proprietary hardware on the
>motherboard that can't easily and compatibly be upgraded?
>

If I were you I wouldn't talk about a lot of proprietary hardware,
since you advocate Macs, and entertain us with upgradability and
compatibility, every time Apple brings out an Os update you have to
drop certain models out, and until the realized they are doing the
wrong thing it was a pain to upgrade even a PowerMac, take a look at
the 6100 PowerMac/Performa series, since you say you have one, and see
for yourself.

At least WB3.1 runs on any Amiga.
And at least any ZorroII card runs on any ZorroII slot, and the same
for Video slot cards and ZorroIII.


Chr...@dcandy.demon.co.uk

unread,
Jun 29, 1997, 3:00:00 AM6/29/97
to

Why does somebody like Karl Thomas bother subscribing to a newsgroup like this. Perhaps, Karl, you can tell us. If you think that your Mac is so superior why spend so much time and energy slagging off the Amiga - what are you worried about, is it that you keep having to reassure yourself that you're not using an inferior machine? What's the deal here?


Terry Palfrey

unread,
Jun 29, 1997, 3:00:00 AM6/29/97
to

In article <359.711...@dcandy.demon.co.uk>, Chr...@dcandy.demon.co.uk
writes:
>
> Msg-ID: <359.711...@dcandy.demon.co.uk>
> References: <01bc8443$2c970020$67c289ce@hitachi>
> Posted: 29 Jun 97 12:13:01 +0000

>
> Why does somebody like Karl Thomas bother subscribing
> to a newsgroup like this. Perhaps, Karl, you can tell
> us.If you think that your Mac is so superior why spend
> so much time and energyslagging off the Amiga - what

> are you worried about, is it that you keep havingto
> reassure yourself that you're not using an inferior
> machine?What's the deal here?
>

One ventures that perhaps he is only answering things
that are crossposted to comp.sys.mac.advocacy as many
of the experts here have no control over where their
posts are sent due to the software they are running.

Another theory is that he is only here to correct any
misconceptions and misinformation being offered about
the mac.

Yet another explanation is that this is the only group
that actually offers sustained "debate" with somewhat
intelligent commentary.

As soon as more than three of the AMIGA regulars hit
town though most of the other *advocates* tone down.
If a video specialist, graphics animator and perhaps
a coder hit the list then there is nowhere for them
to run. I'm sitting on 8 unanswered posts right now.

Terry

Karl Thomas

unread,
Jun 29, 1997, 3:00:00 AM6/29/97
to


Chr...@dcandy.demon.co.uk wrote in article
<359.711...@dcandy.demon.co.uk>...


> Why does somebody like Karl Thomas bother subscribing to a newsgroup like

this. Perhaps, Karl, you can tell us. If you think that your Mac is so
superior why spend so much time and energy slagging off the Amiga - what
are you worried about, is it that you keep having to reassure yourself that


you're not using an inferior machine? What's the deal here?

Nahh, just to keep the erroneous information down to a decent level.


Terry Palfrey

unread,
Jun 29, 1997, 3:00:00 AM6/29/97
to

In article <33c5051f...@dfw-ixnews1.ix.netcom.com>,
jsh...@ix.netcom.com (John Sheehy) writes:
>
> Msg-ID: <33c5051f...@dfw-ixnews1.ix.netcom.com>
> References: <92299-8...@mindlink.bc.ca>
> Posted: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 01:00:48 GMT

>
> Terry_...@mindlink.bc.ca (Terry Palfrey) writes:
>
> >One ventures that perhaps he is only answering things
> >that are crossposted to comp.sys.mac.advocacy as many
> >of the experts here have no control over where their
> >posts are sent due to the software they are running.
>
> Terry, many people who have the ability to avoid crossposts
> choose not to, for the simple reason that they don't want to
> cut off anyone who was involved in the conversation.

I think my three categories were broad enough to include
that type of person as well. I'd worry if someone couldn't
find comp.sys.AMIGA.advocacy but would happily put them in
my defined group above.

Terry

John Sheehy

unread,
Jun 30, 1997, 3:00:00 AM6/30/97
to

Terry_...@mindlink.bc.ca (Terry Palfrey) writes:

>One ventures that perhaps he is only answering things
>that are crossposted to comp.sys.mac.advocacy as many
>of the experts here have no control over where their
>posts are sent due to the software they are running.

Terry, many people who have the ability to avoid crossposts choose not
to, for the simple reason that they don't want to cut off anyone who was
involved in the conversation.

<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<>
John P Sheehy <jsh...@ix.netcom.com>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>><

Bill Hoggett

unread,
Jul 1, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/1/97
to

On 30-Jun-97 John Sheehy <jsh...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

>Terry_...@mindlink.bc.ca (Terry Palfrey) writes:

>>One ventures that perhaps he is only answering things
>>that are crossposted to comp.sys.mac.advocacy as many
>>of the experts here have no control over where their
>>posts are sent due to the software they are running.

>Terry, many people who have the ability to avoid crossposts choose not
>to, for the simple reason that they don't want to cut off anyone who was
>involved in the conversation.

Except that Karl is not answering corossposts only. The threads he takes
part in are not crossposted to any Mac groups so the conclusion is that
he simply hangs out on csaa to defend the Mac's superiority and bash Amigas.
I have never read *any* positive comments about the Amiga from Karl, just
as I have never read one from yourself or David Corn. That is why you
are all lumped together and labelled "Anti-Amigans", however much you may
dislike it.

---
Bill Hoggett (aka BeeJay) <hog...@airtime.co.uk>

IF GOD IS LIFE'S SERVICE PROVIDER WHY HAVEN'T I GOT HIS I.P. NUMBER ?


Alexander W. Dorn

unread,
Jul 1, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/1/97
to

Chr...@dcandy.demon.co.uk wrote:

| Why does somebody like Karl Thomas bother subscribing to a newsgroup like this.

| Perhaps, Karl, you can tell us.

| If you think that your Mac is so superior why spend

| so much time and energyslagging off the Amiga - what are you worried about, is it
| that you keep havingto reassure yourself that you're not using an inferior machine?

| What's the deal here?

Well, while I have not been following this person's post, from my "10
Reasons to Bash Amigas" list, I submit the following possiblities:

6. Pay-back bragging, so that some can now gloat about what their
own machine of choice can now do that the Amiga cannot, as the
Amiga, for so many years, could do so much that other
platforms could not, even though, today, such a list is still
rather short.

Since the Macintosh went PPC, they can no longer be accused of being
slow as molassis, as they often were PrePPC, especially by Amiga users
who used the same processors. Now, they are fast, and perhaps looking
for someone to gloat to.

Even Should/when the Amiga goes PPC, it will still be some time before
we have a PPC AmigaOS, so such gloating will be around for some time,
I think.

10. They have been commissioned, by God, to insure that the claims
by Amiga Enthusiasts do not become too outrageous, as while God
himself is willing to let Windows users think that they have Real
Multitasking, he is not willing to let Amiga users think that their
GUI is multi-threaded.

It is amazing, to me, how many Amiga bashers seem to think that it is
their duty to disprove any claims made by Amiga advocates, and with
such devotion to their cause, that it can only be some sort of weird
religeous Anti-Amiga thing.

Now, as I said, I have not been following this particular individual,
and have only really picked up that he is a Mac user, but it is quite
possible that one or both of these items do apply.
---
Thank you for your time

Alexander W. Dorn


ARAMI

unread,
Jul 2, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/2/97
to

On 29 Jun 1997 04:22:40 GMT
in article <01bc8443$2c970020$67c289ce@hitachi>
"Karl Thomas" <kath...@nox.nyx.net> wrote:

>
>
>ARAMI <ar...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in article
><33c2920d....@nntp.ix.netcom.com>...


>> On 25 Jun 1997 13:16:39 GMT, "Karl Thomas" <kath...@nyx.nox.net>
>> wrote:
>> >What mindset is that? Integrating a lot of proprietary hardware on the
>> >motherboard that can't easily and compatibly be upgraded?
>> >
>>
>> If I were you I wouldn't talk about a lot of proprietary hardware,
>> since you advocate Macs, and entertain us with upgradability and
>> compatibility, every time Apple brings out an Os update you have to

>> drop certain models out.
>
>Why should Apple try to make System 8.0 run on a Mac Plus?
>
Why not?

Or is it just following M$ steps in making everything obsolete
whenever they feel like it?


>Besides, there have been no major new features of the MacOS since System
>7.5 that's relevant to 68K Mac users. Newer components come with the newer
>systems (Quicktime, Open Transport, etc.) but those can be downloaded and
>loaded on previous system releases. System 7.5.1 still runs on a Mac Plus.
> System 7.5.5 will run on any 68020 Mac or greater and System 7.6 will run
>on any Mac that was introduced since the Mac LCII in 1992. The major new
>features of the next version of the MacOS are a native PPC Finder (which is
>irrelevant to 68K users), the new 3D interface (which users can get now
>with Aaron) and some new components which will be available separately for
>download (CyberDog, OpenDoc. etc). The next release will still run on
>68040's.
>

Yep, that's why even 601 based Mac have nothing left for them either.

>> and until the realized they are doing the
>> wrong thing it was a pain to upgrade even a PowerMac, take a look at
>> the 6100 PowerMac/Performa series, since you say you have one, and see
>> for yourself.
>>
>

>It's called "choice" when I bought my PowerMac I knew that it had limited
>internal upgradability but I chose to buy it over the 7100 and the 8100
>because it met my needs. The only upgradeability that I personally needed

Sure, What kind of a choice was that?
One PDS or Nubus slot through an adapter which was discontinued after
several months, 2 Simm slots, pizza box case, non updatable video,
.........etc.

>was available for the PDS slot and external SCSI devices. Mac users have
>had choices to buy a Mac with limited expandibility and greater
>expandability since 1987. But at least when they upgraded their graphics
>card the software (including games) supported it.
>

They better do that, Apple is still in business.

>
>> At least WB3.1 runs on any Amiga.
>> And at least any ZorroII card runs on any ZorroII slot, and the same
>> for Video slot cards and ZorroIII.
>

>It hasn't been upgraded since 1992 (or was it 1993?). Any version of the
>MacOS that was available in 1993 will still run on any Mac later than the
>512K. It's called stagnation not innovation.
>

You just proved my point and showed how poor strategy Apple has.


Karl Thomas

unread,
Jul 2, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/2/97
to


Bill Hoggett <hog...@airtime.co.uk> wrote in article
<1093.7121...@airtime.co.uk>...


> On 30-Jun-97 John Sheehy <jsh...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> Except that Karl is not answering corossposts only. The threads he takes
> part in are not crossposted to any Mac groups so the conclusion is that
> he simply hangs out on csaa to defend the Mac's superiority and bash
Amigas.
> I have never read *any* positive comments about the Amiga from Karl, just
> as I have never read one from yourself or David Corn. That is why you
> are all lumped together and labelled "Anti-Amigans", however much you may
> dislike it.

Have you ever known me to say anything as childish as "Amiga Sucks" (not
saying that you have)? Have I even made baseless claims toward either the
Mac or PC such as in the Macs case "The Mac's multitasking is better than
the Amigas"? I can in fact recall in another thread saying that the
Amiga's multitasking is better. But when Amiga users say something that's
really not based on reality, I'll post a reply.. Also when Amiga users
come up with reasons that "Only Amigas Make It Possible" based on severely
out-dated or just plain false information on the Mac or the PC, I usually
respond. Bill, there have been a number of occasions that you have even
posted corrections to other Amiga users especially in the recent A2000 vs.
6100 thread.

But as far as the Mac's superiority -- if another Mac user starts posting
claims that are not based on facts or whose opinions I disagree with, I'll
post then too. A few months ago, a couple of Mac users swore I was an
"MS-flunky who probably hasn't touched a Mac in years" because I defended
the decision of IS professionals (including myself) who chose PC's running
Windows '95 over Macs for their company. Is it that hard to believe that a
person can use a computer without getting personally attached to it, like
most Amiga users who post here do?

As I've said before, if you can separate the wheat from the chaff (i.e.
Arami), c.s.a.a. usually has more intelligent debate by a diverse group of
users than most of the other advocacy groups that I've read -- including
the Mac advocacy group.


David Corn

unread,
Jul 2, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/2/97
to

On 01 Jul 97 11:24:24 +0500, hog...@airtime.co.uk (Bill Hoggett)
wrote:

>I have never read *any* positive comments about the Amiga from Karl, just
>as I have never read one from yourself or David Corn. That is why you

I admit I can't quote one, but there have been a few.


________________________________________________
Reachable at: 713 629 6947 nights
Please quote in all replies

Karl Thomas

unread,
Jul 3, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/3/97
to


ARAMI <ar...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in article

<33d042e5...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>...


> >Why should Apple try to make System 8.0 run on a Mac Plus?
> >
> Why not?
>
> Or is it just following M$ steps in making everything obsolete
> whenever they feel like it?

How many Mac Plus users do you see clamoring to run MacOS 8.

> Yep, that's why even 601 based Mac have nothing left for them either.

Do you mean after MacOS 8?? Apple's *plan* is to introduce new versions of
the MacOS up until at least '99 in parallel with the Rhapsody/NextStep
decision. But as I've said before, I try not to argue about anything that
isn't currently shipping.

> >It's called "choice" when I bought my PowerMac I knew that it had
limited
> >internal upgradability but I chose to buy it over the 7100 and the 8100
> >because it met my needs. The only upgradeability that I personally
needed
>
> Sure, What kind of a choice was that?
> One PDS or Nubus slot through an adapter which was discontinued after
> several months, 2 Simm slots, pizza box case, non updatable video,
> .........etc.

I had a choice not to buy a 6100/60 and to buy 7100/66 or an 8100/80. I
probaby wouldn't have bought another computer when I did (10/96) if I
hadn't needed a laptop.

> >was available for the PDS slot and external SCSI devices. Mac users
have
> >had choices to buy a Mac with limited expandibility and greater
> >expandability since 1987. But at least when they upgraded their
graphics
> >card the software (including games) supported it.
> >
>
> They better do that, Apple is still in business.

Amiga users had problems with third party graphics cards not working with
games even when Commodore was still in business.

> >It hasn't been upgraded since 1992 (or was it 1993?). Any version of
the
> >MacOS that was available in 1993 will still run on any Mac later than
the
> >512K. It's called stagnation not innovation.
> >
>
> You just proved my point and showed how poor strategy Apple has.

It's poor strategy to waste limited resources and making compromises to
support severely outdated hardware like the Mac Plus. If and when Rhapsody
comes out I like everyone else can choose whether to buy a new MacOS
compatible to run it, stick with the old Mac, or just say forget it and buy
a PC. If enough people choose to jump ship to a PC so be it -- Apple goes
bankrupt. I'll go tsk tsk for a few minutes and get back to programming my
PC like I've done for the past year. Do you really think I have any
emotional attachment to a hunk of silicon?


Bill Hoggett

unread,
Jul 3, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/3/97
to

On 03-Jul-97 David Corn <dc...@pdq.net> wrote:

>On 01 Jul 97 11:24:24 +0500, hog...@airtime.co.uk (Bill Hoggett)
>wrote:

>>I have never read *any* positive comments about the Amiga from Karl, just
>>as I have never read one from yourself or David Corn. That is why you

>I admit I can't quote one, but there have been a few.

Says it all, doesn't it ? Can *anyone* refresh David's memory, or was he
just dreaming (having nightmares ?)

:-)

Karl Thomas

unread,
Jul 3, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/3/97
to


Bill Hoggett <hog...@airtime.co.uk> wrote in article

<571.7123...@airtime.co.uk>...


> On 03-Jul-97 David Corn <dc...@pdq.net> wrote:
> Says it all, doesn't it ? Can *anyone* refresh David's memory, or was he
> just dreaming (having nightmares ?)
>
> :-)

Actually I can paraphrase one. I'm sure I've said that the Amiga's
multitasking is better than the Mac's. But then again, that's saying much.


ARAMI

unread,
Jul 5, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/5/97
to

On 3 Jul 1997 00:11:05 GMT
in article <01bc8745$718b9ec0$72c289ce@hitachi>
"Karl Thomas" <kath...@nox.nyx.net> wrote:


Karl, apparently you have problems understanding the market in
general, what kept the Amiga alive is user loyality, in spite of C='s
foolish strategies, but regardless of that, the loyality was a result
of years and years of updates which never made an Amiga model obsolete
just because of an Os update, true you need to move on with the
technology but, you don't need to crush your earlier customer and
users and make them feel that you abandoned them, and make it forced
upgrade for them.

The Amiga Os runs on any, yes read it right *any* Amiga, with the
amount of ram needed.

The point is that Apple is increasing the bloat which does need faster
and better cpu, and proves my point right, Mac Os never utilized the
hardware side, as soon as Apple took the first step on the right
track, they had to drop big range of 68K based Macs which had
processors that still Amiga os runs on them smoothly and efficiently.

That still doesn't make Amiga Os as being coded to take the most of
the Amiga's hardware, it still needs to be optimized in that area.

ARAMI

unread,
Jul 5, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/5/97
to

On Sun, 29 Jun 97 07:56:17 -0800
in article <92299-8...@mindlink.bc.ca>
Terry_...@mindlink.bc.ca (Terry Palfrey) wrote:


>>
>> Why does somebody like Karl Thomas bother subscribing
>> to a newsgroup like this. Perhaps, Karl, you can tell

>> us.If you think that your Mac is so superior why spend


>> so much time and energyslagging off the Amiga - what
>> are you worried about, is it that you keep havingto
>> reassure yourself that you're not using an inferior

>> machine?What's the deal here?
>>
>

>One ventures that perhaps he is only answering things
>that are crossposted to comp.sys.mac.advocacy as many
>of the experts here have no control over where their
>posts are sent due to the software they are running.
>

No, he hasn't even posted there for a long time I'm there all the
time, and most of the messages that he replied are not crossposted
there.

>Another theory is that he is only here to correct any
>misconceptions and misinformation being offered about
>the mac.
>

Actually he needs someone to correct his posts about basic definitions
and specs/prices for various Mac systems.

>Yet another explanation is that this is the only group
>that actually offers sustained "debate" with somewhat
>intelligent commentary.
>

True, and add to that he 's underestimating people here, and he thinks
it's easy to bash the Amiga, based on being a Mac fanatic, without
knowing that Most people here have access to access/own
Macs as well as pcs next to their Amiga's.


ARAMI

unread,
Jul 5, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/5/97
to

On 2 Jul 1997 23:18:05 GMT
in article <01bc873d$fc394de0$72c289ce@hitachi>
"Karl Thomas" <kath...@nox.nyx.net> wrote:

>
>
>Bill Hoggett <hog...@airtime.co.uk> wrote in article

><1093.7121...@airtime.co.uk>...
>> On 30-Jun-97 John Sheehy <jsh...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>
>> Except that Karl is not answering corossposts only. The threads he takes
>> part in are not crossposted to any Mac groups so the conclusion is that
>> he simply hangs out on csaa to defend the Mac's superiority and bash
>Amigas.

>> I have never read *any* positive comments about the Amiga from Karl, just
>> as I have never read one from yourself or David Corn. That is why you

>> are all lumped together and labelled "Anti-Amigans", however much you may
>> dislike it.
>
>Have you ever known me to say anything as childish as "Amiga Sucks" (not

Yes, Wasn't it you the idiot who said that this great Amiga Os looks
worse?

Say no and you'll see the message along with the headers.

>saying that you have)? Have I even made baseless claims toward either the
>Mac or PC such as in the Macs case "The Mac's multitasking is better than
>the Amigas"? I can in fact recall in another thread saying that the
>Amiga's multitasking is better. But when Amiga users say something that's
>really not based on reality, I'll post a reply.. Also when Amiga users
>come up with reasons that "Only Amigas Make It Possible" based on severely
>out-dated or just plain false information on the Mac or the PC, I usually
>respond. Bill, there have been a number of occasions that you have even
>posted corrections to other Amiga users especially in the recent A2000 vs.
>6100 thread.
>
>But as far as the Mac's superiority -- if another Mac user starts posting
>claims that are not based on facts or whose opinions I disagree with, I'll
>post then too. A few months ago, a couple of Mac users swore I was an
>"MS-flunky who probably hasn't touched a Mac in years" because I defended
>the decision of IS professionals (including myself) who chose PC's running
>Windows '95 over Macs for their company. Is it that hard to believe that a
>person can use a computer without getting personally attached to it, like
>most Amiga users who post here do?
>
>As I've said before, if you can separate the wheat from the chaff (i.e.
>Arami), c.s.a.a. usually has more intelligent debate by a diverse group of
>users than most of the other advocacy groups that I've read -- including
>the Mac advocacy group.
>

It's always the ill behaviors of someone like you to attack names and
cannot address any issue, so far I've never seen a single post of
accurate dates or prices or technical specs of any Mac model you claim
knowledge of, let alone constantly bashing the Amiga and sleeping with
Corn, regardless whether he was right or wrong.

But as for me, I hope that someone doesn't scare you away, It's great
to see your foolishness and arrogance, let alone ignorance being
addressed by the Amiga users here, as time goes by the therapy you're
getting here should become effective and get you back to sense, if you
have any left, if not you'll be trashed after people here get tired of
reading the crap you post, and your insisting on points that you're
proven wrong, makes everyone tired of that, trying to bash an
Os/platform that most of us used to own and use long time before scum
bags like you even surfaced.

Several times I warned you about attacking names and told you to focus
on subjects, you didn't listen, so the above serves you right.


ARAMI

unread,
Jul 5, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/5/97
to

On 29 Jun 1997 18:04:53 GMT
in article <01bc84b6$cce1ddc0$65c289ce@hitachi>
"Karl Thomas" <kath...@nox.nyx.net> wrote:

>> Why does somebody like Karl Thomas bother subscribing to a newsgroup like
>this.
>
>Perhaps, Karl, you can tell us.
>
>If you think that your Mac is so
>superior why spend so much time and energy
>slagging off the Amiga - what
>are you worried about, is it that you keep having

>to reassure yourself that


>you're not using an inferior machine?
>
>What's the deal here?
>

>Nahh, just to keep the erroneous information down to a decent level.
>

First of all learn how to quote messages correctly and then get back
to us, someone earlier in other thread, mentioned a newbie with his
first AOL disk?

Look in the mirror.

Bill Hoggett

unread,
Jul 5, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/5/97
to

On 03-Jul-97 Karl Thomas <kath...@nox.nyx.net> wrote:

>Bill Hoggett <hog...@airtime.co.uk> wrote in article

><571.7123...@airtime.co.uk>...
>> On 03-Jul-97 David Corn <dc...@pdq.net> wrote:
>> Says it all, doesn't it ? Can *anyone* refresh David's memory, or was he
>> just dreaming (having nightmares ?)
>>
>> :-)

>Actually I can paraphrase one. I'm sure I've said that the Amiga's
>multitasking is better than the Mac's. But then again, that's saying much.

Except that those were your words, not David's. I was questioning his
statement that he may have said something positive about the Amiga at some
stage. That question still remains unanswered.

Karl Thomas

unread,
Jul 5, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/5/97
to


ARAMI <ar...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in article

<33d40e0d....@nntp.ix.netcom.com>...


> >Have you ever known me to say anything as childish as "Amiga Sucks" (not
>
> Yes, Wasn't it you the idiot who said that this great Amiga Os looks
> worse?

Yes, but I did actually post facts that others seem to understand, except
for you.

> It's always the ill behaviors of someone like you to attack names and
> cannot address any issue,

What better way to address an issue than bringing up relevant data?

> so far I've never seen a single post of
> accurate dates or prices or technical specs of any Mac model you claim
> knowledge of, let alone constantly bashing the Amiga and sleeping with
> Corn, regardless whether he was right or wrong.

Like your very accurate post about Ram Doubler? You never make any
technical post.

> Several times I warned you about attacking names and told you to focus
> on subjects, you didn't listen, so the above serves you right.

Nah, just you not anyone else. Most of the other regular posters -- Bill
H., Steve G., Bernard (sp.), Terry P., David are generally well informed
and are able to follow and interpret the threads. From the threads that I
hae personally followed, you are just the only person who talks loud and
says nothing -- besides Arctangent.


Karl Thomas

unread,
Jul 5, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/5/97
to


ARAMI <ar...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in article

<33d208f2....@nntp.ix.netcom.com>...


> Karl, apparently you have problems understanding the market in
> general, what kept the Amiga alive is user loyality, in spite of C='s
> foolish strategies, but regardless of that, the loyality was a result
> of years and years of updates which never made an Amiga model obsolete
> just because of an Os update, true you need to move on with the
> technology but, you don't need to crush your earlier customer and
> users and make them feel that you abandoned them, and make it forced
> upgrade for them.
>
> The Amiga Os runs on any, yes read it right *any* Amiga, with the
> amount of ram needed.

During that same time period. Apple also updated the MacOS in a way that
all Macs could run. Neither you nor I, know what direction that Commodore
would have taken once they changed processor lines, or even significantly
changed hardware within the same processor line. Apple's component updates
will still run on any Mac for now. Quicktime won't run on a B&W Mac but
what do you expect? I don't know of any Mac Plus owner who are clamoring
to try to run Apple Java Virtual Machine, or the Personal Web Sharing. Mac
Plus owners have moved one anyway -- either to better Macs or to PC's. Go
into one of the Mac groups and see if anyone is complaining that they won't
be able to run System 8 on their Mac Plus.

>
> The point is that Apple is increasing the bloat which does need faster
> and better cpu, and proves my point right, Mac Os never utilized the
> hardware side, as soon as Apple took the first step on the right
> track, they had to drop big range of 68K based Macs which had
> processors that still Amiga os runs on them smoothly and efficiently.

System 7.6 nor System 8 provide any benefits to 68K users. The components
have been updated/bug-fixed but they can be downloaded separately and
installed on top of System 7.5.3. The major change of System 8 is the
improved interface (questionable) and the PPC native finder. Do you
really think that there are enough owners of pre 1991 Macs willing to buy
System 8, to make it worth the money invested. By the time that Rhapsody
comes out in 1998, the 68K Mac market will be so small even by the Mac
standards that it will be irrelevant.

>
> That still doesn't make Amiga Os as being coded to take the most of
> the Amiga's hardware, it still needs to be optimized in that area.

What would have happened if Commodore decided to make their next OS release
support VM and memory protection? Where would that have left the pre -030
Amigas?

David Corn

unread,
Jul 5, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/5/97
to

On 05 Jul 97 12:05:40 +0500, hog...@airtime.co.uk (Bill Hoggett)
wrote:

>On 03-Jul-97 Karl Thomas <kath...@nox.nyx.net> wrote:


>
>>Bill Hoggett <hog...@airtime.co.uk> wrote in article
>><571.7123...@airtime.co.uk>...
>>> On 03-Jul-97 David Corn <dc...@pdq.net> wrote:
>>> Says it all, doesn't it ? Can *anyone* refresh David's memory, or was he
>>> just dreaming (having nightmares ?)
>>>
>>> :-)
>
>>Actually I can paraphrase one. I'm sure I've said that the Amiga's
>>multitasking is better than the Mac's. But then again, that's saying much.
>
>Except that those were your words, not David's. I was questioning his
>statement that he may have said something positive about the Amiga at some
>stage. That question still remains unanswered.

Oh, I have, Bill. When I do, I usually get some advocate's posting
expressing amazing disbelief. It has happened.
__________________________________
Reachable at: 281-549-3977 Nights


Please quote in all replies

Note my e-mail address: dc...@pdq.net

ARAMI

unread,
Jul 6, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/6/97
to

On 5 Jul 1997 14:45:20 GMT
in article <01bc8951$e217d420$64c289ce@hitachi>
"Karl Thomas" <kath...@nox.nyx.net> wrote:

>
>
>ARAMI <ar...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in article
><33d208f2....@nntp.ix.netcom.com>...
>> Karl, apparently you have problems understanding the market in
>> general, what kept the Amiga alive is user loyality, in spite of C='s
>> foolish strategies, but regardless of that, the loyality was a result
>> of years and years of updates which never made an Amiga model obsolete
>> just because of an Os update, true you need to move on with the
>> technology but, you don't need to crush your earlier customer and
>> users and make them feel that you abandoned them, and make it forced
>> upgrade for them.
>>
>> The Amiga Os runs on any, yes read it right *any* Amiga, with the
>> amount of ram needed.
>
>During that same time period. Apple also updated the MacOS in a way that
>all Macs could run. Neither you nor I, know what direction that Commodore
>would have taken once they changed processor lines, or even significantly
>changed hardware within the same processor line. Apple's component updates
>will still run on any Mac for now. Quicktime won't run on a B&W Mac but
>what do you expect? I don't know of any Mac Plus owner who are clamoring
>to try to run Apple Java Virtual Machine, or the Personal Web Sharing. Mac
>Plus owners have moved one anyway -- either to better Macs or to PC's. Go
>into one of the Mac groups and see if anyone is complaining that they won't
>be able to run System 8 on their Mac Plus.
>


Is everything for the user to run Apple Java virtual machine or such
an environmet?What about personal uses?

We receive calls every day from those users and when we tell them it
won't run, guess what, the ask about Apple's phone number to call and
complain.


>>
>> The point is that Apple is increasing the bloat which does need faster
>> and better cpu, and proves my point right, Mac Os never utilized the
>> hardware side, as soon as Apple took the first step on the right
>> track, they had to drop big range of 68K based Macs which had
>> processors that still Amiga os runs on them smoothly and efficiently.
>
>System 7.6 nor System 8 provide any benefits to 68K users. The components
>have been updated/bug-fixed but they can be downloaded separately and
>installed on top of System 7.5.3. The major change of System 8 is the
>improved interface (questionable) and the PPC native finder. Do you
>really think that there are enough owners of pre 1991 Macs willing to buy
>System 8, to make it worth the money invested. By the time that Rhapsody
>comes out in 1998, the 68K Mac market will be so small even by the Mac
>standards that it will be irrelevant.
>

My point is that regardless of your pre 1991 Mac user base, if Mac Os
was coded in the right way it could have been easily upgraded without
dropping large user base and forcing them either to buy a new system
or switch to pcs.

>
>>
>> That still doesn't make Amiga Os as being coded to take the most of
>> the Amiga's hardware, it still needs to be optimized in that area.
>
>What would have happened if Commodore decided to make their next OS release
>support VM and memory protection? Where would that have left the pre -030
>Amigas?
>

Amiga Os could be easily configured to do that, as for MP, may be I'm
wrong, but I could care less, it ties up your system, and needs a hack
from a third party developer to gain back the lost memory space.

Even assuming they did that, It would have been a major and painful
step, because it render all most all of the existing software non
usable, and you'll wait for someone who will release some kind of an
emulator so that you can run your current software at less speed.

In short it could have been another Apple, or another M$.

But if AI do it now it would have less impact, as the Amiga is far
less smaller today than it was back in 1993.


ARAMI

unread,
Jul 6, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/6/97
to

On 5 Jul 1997 14:21:10 GMT
in article <01bc894e$890398e0$64c289ce@hitachi>
"Karl Thomas" <kath...@nox.nyx.net> wrote:

>
>
>ARAMI <ar...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in article

><33d40e0d....@nntp.ix.netcom.com>...
>> >Have you ever known me to say anything as childish as "Amiga Sucks" (not
>>
>> Yes, Wasn't it you the idiot who said that this great Amiga Os looks
>> worse?
>
>Yes, but I did actually post facts that others seem to understand, except
>for you.
>

Where was that?when?facts?
Actually I saw everyone knowledgable posting back to correct your
bullshit, and if you still deny, you'll see message headers.

>> It's always the ill behaviors of someone like you to attack names and
>> cannot address any issue,
>
>What better way to address an issue than bringing up relevant data?
>

When did you do that?You always attacked me, I have the message id's
along with the posts in full to shame you.

>> so far I've never seen a single post of
>> accurate dates or prices or technical specs of any Mac model you claim
>> knowledge of, let alone constantly bashing the Amiga and sleeping with
>> Corn, regardless whether he was right or wrong.
>
>Like your very accurate post about Ram Doubler? You never make any
>technical post.
>

You never quit, just another annoying spoiled child, I challenge to
post anything wrong about RD, I don't need the full specs and
features, to be posted to make it right, the basic concept will do.

But on the other hand take a look at your socalled technical posts
about Gigamem, SS, Amiga Os, definitions of hack, multitasking, direct
hardware accessing, need I list more?

You have no common sense, no general reading skills, you are rude,
arrogant,and lack basic netiquette.

You cannot even quote a message properly.


>> Several times I warned you about attacking names and told you to focus
>> on subjects, you didn't listen, so the above serves you right.
>
>Nah, just you not anyone else.

You basically proved that you have attitude problems, and you always
attack names, read the above for an example.

>Most of the other regular posters -- Bill
>H., Steve G., Bernard (sp.), Terry P., David are generally well informed
>and are able to follow and interpret the threads. From the threads that I
>hae personally followed, you are just the only person who talks loud and
>says nothing -- besides Arctangent.
>

Talking about being loud, You were the clown who stepped in the middle
of discussion between me and Bernd, and started farting about Amiga Os
looking worse, and drove the thread into a long , boring and tiresome
posts trying to explain to you basic and common definitions.

As being a Mac fanatic, and an ignorant one too, I never saw any
technical posting from, and any post that contain tech specs are
either wrong(Umax specs) or just blindly quoted from somewhere else
without verification, all you did was jumping in bed with Corn, as
both of you have lots of things in common, insults, rude language,
ignorance, arrogance, hiding facts, running away from answering
technical questions.


As a matter of fact you show more and more of yourself on daily basis,
as this is getting tiresome, trying to communicate with a newbie like
you.

You just graduated from your college/school/institute that's good, but
you need some real experience in life, and most important of all some
basic reading and understanding skills, a common sense would help
also, try to work on those issues rather than attacking and get back
to us when you have some basic moral put in you.

A for who's who here, you're in no position to evaluate anyone here,
you still need lots credit to even being taken seriously in an Amiga
discussion.

ARAMI

unread,
Jul 6, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/6/97
to

On 05 Jul 97 12:05:40 +0500
in article <793.7125...@airtime.co.uk>
hog...@airtime.co.uk (Bill Hoggett) wrote:

>On 03-Jul-97 Karl Thomas <kath...@nox.nyx.net> wrote:
>
>>Bill Hoggett <hog...@airtime.co.uk> wrote in article
>><571.7123...@airtime.co.uk>...
>>> On 03-Jul-97 David Corn <dc...@pdq.net> wrote:
>>> Says it all, doesn't it ? Can *anyone* refresh David's memory, or was he
>>> just dreaming (having nightmares ?)
>>>
>>> :-)
>
>>Actually I can paraphrase one. I'm sure I've said that the Amiga's
>>multitasking is better than the Mac's. But then again, that's saying much.
>
>Except that those were your words, not David's. I was questioning his
>statement that he may have said something positive about the Amiga at some
>stage. That question still remains unanswered.
>

Never will be.

Karl Thomas

unread,
Jul 7, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/7/97
to


ARAMI <ar...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in article

<33ee1868....@nntp.ix.netcom.com>...


> On 5 Jul 1997 14:45:20 GMT
> in article <01bc8951$e217d420$64c289ce@hitachi>
> "Karl Thomas" <kath...@nox.nyx.net> wrote:
> My point is that regardless of your pre 1991 Mac user base, if Mac Os
> was coded in the right way it could have been easily upgraded without
> dropping large user base and forcing them either to buy a new system
> or switch to pcs.


The latest numbers I've seen (Fall '96) showed that 60% of the Mac
installed base was PPC, 20% '040 and 20% other. Do you think Apple could
recoup their R&D cost or even their QA cost based on the limited number of
Mac users with pre-1991 Macs with capable hardware who are willing to buy
the upgrade?

What benefits do System 7.6 released in January (last update for '030 Macs)
offer 68000 and 68020 Mac users that can't be uploaded and installed on top
of System 7.5.x? Open Transport isn't supported on pre-'030 Macs (AFAIK),
but the main benefit of OT is in server situations and because it's PPC
native. Neither will benefit 020 and 68000 Mac users. What applications
require System 7.6 to run? If Pre 1991 Mac users need to upgrade it's not
because of the MacOS, but because the third party software they need either
runs entirely too slow on their computers or not at all.

As far as System 8 is concerned, most of the benefits besides the UI is
entirely for PowerMac users. There are no new features in the MacOS 8 that
in and of themselves are worth earlier 68K Mac users buying new equipment
to use.

> Amiga Os could be easily configured to do that, as for MP, may be I'm
> wrong, but I could care less, it ties up your system, and needs a hack
> from a third party developer to gain back the lost memory space.

How does MP tie up your system -- by keeping it from crashing? A good MP
implementation will automatically deallocate memory from a crashed
application. An OS without memory application can free up memory from a
crashed app.

>
> Even assuming they did that, It would have been a major and painful
> step, because it render all most all of the existing software non
> usable, and you'll wait for someone who will release some kind of an
> emulator so that you can run your current software at less speed.

So do you want your OS to be handicapped forever because of backwards
compatibility (i.e. Windows '95)?

Karl Thomas

unread,
Jul 7, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/7/97
to


ARAMI <ar...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in article

<33ef1c34....@nntp.ix.netcom.com>...


> On 5 Jul 1997 14:21:10 GMT
> in article <01bc894e$890398e0$64c289ce@hitachi>
> "Karl Thomas" <kath...@nox.nyx.net> wrote:
>
> >
> >

> >ARAMI <ar...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in article

> ><33d40e0d....@nntp.ix.netcom.com>...


>
> Where was that?when?facts?
> Actually I saw everyone knowledgable posting back to correct your
> bullshit, and if you still deny, you'll see message headers.

Who? The only person who "corrected" me was someone who also said in the
same message that Quicktime wasn't included as a standard part of the
MacOS.

>
> >> It's always the ill behaviors of someone like you to attack names and
> >> cannot address any issue,
> >
> >What better way to address an issue than bringing up relevant data?
> >
>
> When did you do that?You always attacked me, I have the message id's
> along with the posts in full to shame you.

I corrected your misinformation. You claimed that I couldn't have bought a
new 6100/60 in late '94. If you were really selling Mac hardware and
software as you claimed, you would have known that in late '94 all of the
Mac resellers were selling the old P-Mac 6100/7100/8100's for ridiculously
low prices to make room for the speed bumped Macs.

> >Like your very accurate post about Ram Doubler? You never make any
> >technical post.
> >
>
> You never quit, just another annoying spoiled child, I challenge to
> post anything wrong about RD, I don't need the full specs and
> features, to be posted to make it right, the basic concept will do.

Your basic concept missed out on 33% of the product did. I would get fired
the first time I put a program on-line that missed 33% of the requirements
telling someone I got the basic concept right.

>
> But on the other hand take a look at your socalled technical posts
> about Gigamem, SS, Amiga Os, definitions of hack, multitasking, direct
> hardware accessing, need I list more?

I tried to post a simple program to show the concepts in more concrete
terms but as usual you had a problem understanding them. Maybe I should
have just posted a LOGO routine and you might have understood. But tell
me, Arami, what is multitasking and why is CMT not *true* multitasking as
you claimed? Strange how someone who admittedly isn't a programmer -- let
alone a Mac programmer, someone who doesn't know the Mac market, can go
around professing knowledge claiming that every Mac developer from
Connectix, Bungie, Lion, etc. who claim to be doing direct graphics access
the same way that I was talking about is lying.

>
> You have no common sense, no general reading skills, you are rude,
> arrogant,and lack basic netiquette.
>
> You cannot even quote a message properly.
>

Why do you even bother about posting so much misinformation? Why don't you
read something besides MacMall before you profress to be an expert on the
Mac market? But if I am arrogant when I post replies to your post it's
just because you make it so easy. It's just like watching a frog who dies
because he's too stupid to jump out of water that is slowly reaching a
boiling temperature.


>
> >> Several times I warned you about attacking names and told you to focus
> >> on subjects, you didn't listen, so the above serves you right.
> >
> >Nah, just you not anyone else.
>
> You basically proved that you have attitude problems, and you always
> attack names, read the above for an example.

Who else have I "attacked" besides you? There might be some people with
different opinions, but most of the other posters here besides you either
know what their talking about or do a better job at covering it up.



> Talking about being loud, You were the clown who stepped in the middle
> of discussion between me and Bernd, and started farting about Amiga Os
> looking worse, and drove the thread into a long , boring and tiresome
> posts trying to explain to you basic and common definitions.

Your "explanations" are based on no more than your pre-conceived prejudices
and wild egotism.


>
> As being a Mac fanatic, and an ignorant one too, I never saw any
> technical posting from, and any post that contain tech specs are
> either wrong(Umax specs) or just blindly quoted from somewhere else
> without verification,

I posted my own explanations first and then I provided quoted material
which I thought that not even you would disagree with. But I have since
found that the "World According to Arami" is based on neither firm
technical grounds or even common sense.

> all you did was jumping in bed with Corn, as
> both of you have lots of things in common, insults, rude language,
> ignorance, arrogance, hiding facts, running away from answering
> technical questions.

Who said "Don't ask me, I'm not a programmer"? I tried to ask you a
technical programming question since I thought that not even you would be
stupid enough to post message after message dealing with programming issues
and not be able to back anything up or at least go find a book somewhere
and pretend like you know. I see that I made the horrible mistake of
over-estimating you.

>
>
> As a matter of fact you show more and more of yourself on daily basis,
> as this is getting tiresome, trying to communicate with a newbie like
> you.

Oh, I'm a newbie? I've interviewed college freshman for intern positions
that could come up with better answers and definitions than you have.

>
> You just graduated from your college/school/institute that's good,
>but
> you need some real experience in life, and most important of all some
> basic reading and understanding skills,

I along with other people have had to explain post word for word to you
because you have misinterpreted the original post.


> a common sense would help
> also, try to work on those issues rather than attacking

I tried to have an intelligent debate with you but you are just grossly
unprepared for any of it. I tried to ask your opinion on direct-hardware
addressing from both a technical standpoint and a cost-benefit analysis
standpoint but you were unable to respond. If you needed me to use short
one syllable words you should have just told me.


> and get back
> to us when you have some basic moral put in you.

Pot? Kettle? Black?

>
> A for who's who here, you're in no position to evaluate anyone here,
> you still need lots credit to even being taken seriously in an Amiga
> discussion.

Not as much as you need to be taken seriously in a discussion of the Mac or
PC market.

ARAMI

unread,
Jul 9, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/9/97
to

On 7 Jul 1997 01:45:43 GMT
in article <01bc8a63$1e40f460$7cc289ce@hitachi>
"Karl Thomas" <kath...@nox.nyx.net> wrote:

>
>
>ARAMI <ar...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in article

The point you're missing that Mac Os if it was coded efficiently
should handle all models, but since Apple is so stupid to do that,
they will keep on dropping more and more and even PPC 601 owners have
to upgrade as far as I can see for Mac Os versions after 8.0.

As for MP, if your application is coded properly, it shouldn't crash.
A badly coded program can even crash your MP Os.

ARAMI

unread,
Jul 9, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/9/97
to

On 7 Jul 1997 02:58:24 GMT
in article <01bc8a81$7098af00$76c289ce@hitachi>
"Karl Thomas" <kath...@nox.nyx.net> wrote:

>
>
>ARAMI <ar...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in article
><33ef1c34....@nntp.ix.netcom.com>...
>> On 5 Jul 1997 14:21:10 GMT
>> in article <01bc894e$890398e0$64c289ce@hitachi>
>> "Karl Thomas" <kath...@nox.nyx.net> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >ARAMI <ar...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in article
>> ><33d40e0d....@nntp.ix.netcom.com>...
>>
>> Where was that?when?facts?
>> Actually I saw everyone knowledgable posting back to correct your
>> bullshit, and if you still deny, you'll see message headers.
>
>Who? The only person who "corrected" me was someone who also said in the
>same message that Quicktime wasn't included as a standard part of the
>MacOS.
>

Keep reading.

>>
>> >> It's always the ill behaviors of someone like you to attack names and
>> >> cannot address any issue,
>> >
>> >What better way to address an issue than bringing up relevant data?
>> >
>>
>> When did you do that?You always attacked me, I have the message id's
>> along with the posts in full to shame you.
>
>I corrected your misinformation. You claimed that I couldn't have bought a

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


>new 6100/60 in late '94. If you were really selling Mac hardware and

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Where did you read this?


>software as you claimed, you would have known that in late '94 all of the

Me selling Macs?How come?
No I just drive to work just for fun.

>Mac resellers were selling the old P-Mac 6100/7100/8100's for ridiculously
>low prices to make room for the speed bumped Macs.
>

Not in your prices, which reflect clearance or grey market.

>> >Like your very accurate post about Ram Doubler? You never make any
>> >technical post.
>> >
>>
>> You never quit, just another annoying spoiled child, I challenge to
>> post anything wrong about RD, I don't need the full specs and
>> features, to be posted to make it right, the basic concept will do.
>
>Your basic concept missed out on 33% of the product did. I would get fired
>the first time I put a program on-line that missed 33% of the requirements
>telling someone I got the basic concept right.
>

Let me explain this for the last time, and it's up to you to
understand or not, as I won't be wasting my time further with a
hobbyist like you.

1. You don't have to know all the specs and features in every software
product out there, unless you use it, you need to look outside your
bedroom window,.

2. Assuming you are right(which is not) still 33%(your number)
forgotten is less than the rest 67%, which again does do nothing since
basic concept is clear.

As for you being fired, relax you won't be,*grin*there are lots of
people out there who need you to code on of those infinite empty loops
of yours, that bang the hardware.<ROTFL>.


>>
>> But on the other hand take a look at your socalled technical posts
>> about Gigamem, SS, Amiga Os, definitions of hack, multitasking, direct
>> hardware accessing, need I list more?
>
>I tried to post a simple program to show the concepts in more concrete
>terms but as usual you had a problem understanding them. Maybe I should
>have just posted a LOGO routine and you might have understood. But tell

Really?Logo?Is that what you program in?

No wonder you don't understand what direct hardware access means.

>me, Arami, what is multitasking and why is CMT not *true* multitasking as
>you claimed? Strange how someone who admittedly isn't a programmer -- let
>alone a Mac programmer, someone who doesn't know the Mac market, can go

Not a programmer, yes, several times I told you that, knowing Mac
market, sorry pal, you lose, you don't even know prices/specs on
anything, and add to that, as I said before, you're in no position
here to judge who's who, as you still need credit for that, and lots
of it too.

>around professing knowledge claiming that every Mac developer from
>Connectix, Bungie, Lion, etc. who claim to be doing direct graphics access

^^^^^^^^^^^


>the same way that I was talking about is lying.
>

Claim?So now you are a spokesman of those?
Strange.

>>
>> You have no common sense, no general reading skills, you are rude,
>> arrogant,and lack basic netiquette.
>>
>> You cannot even quote a message properly.
>>
>
>Why do you even bother about posting so much misinformation? Why don't you

The only misinformed here is you, besides of course Corn the fool.

>read something besides MacMall before you profress to be an expert on the

I don't need to read catalogs, my information and experience comes
from real life, unlike you just reading here and there, and at least
you could have read right.

>Mac market? But if I am arrogant when I post replies to your post it's
>just because you make it so easy. It's just like watching a frog who dies
>because he's too stupid to jump out of water that is slowly reaching a
>boiling temperature.
>

Actually it's more fun watching you howl and fart here like a mad dog,
about your socalled experience and knowledge, I 've dealt with your
breed a lot and it makes it easier to blast your kind of fools,
because you're too stupid to make a remark or post an article you
could be taken seriously about.

>
>>
>> >> Several times I warned you about attacking names and told you to focus
>> >> on subjects, you didn't listen, so the above serves you right.
>> >
>> >Nah, just you not anyone else.
>>
>> You basically proved that you have attitude problems, and you always
>> attack names, read the above for an example.
>
>Who else have I "attacked" besides you? There might be some people with
>different opinions, but most of the other posters here besides you either
>know what their talking about or do a better job at covering it up.
>


That means you are into attacks, you already admitted that, you need
to do better than that, kid.

I see you joined that idiot Corn and Sheehy the fool in the lunatic's
club.


>> Talking about being loud, You were the clown who stepped in the middle
>> of discussion between me and Bernd, and started farting about Amiga Os
>> looking worse, and drove the thread into a long , boring and tiresome
>> posts trying to explain to you basic and common definitions.
>
>Your "explanations" are based on no more than your pre-conceived prejudices
>and wild egotism.
>
>
>>
>> As being a Mac fanatic, and an ignorant one too, I never saw any
>> technical posting from, and any post that contain tech specs are
>> either wrong(Umax specs) or just blindly quoted from somewhere else
>> without verification,
>
>I posted my own explanations first and then I provided quoted material
>which I thought that not even you would disagree with. But I have since
>found that the "World According to Arami" is based on neither firm
>technical grounds or even common sense.
>

Actually it's the "Karl Thomas=Bullshit" which based on arrogance,
ignorance, stupidity, foolish childness.

>> all you did was jumping in bed with Corn, as
>> both of you have lots of things in common, insults, rude language,
>> ignorance, arrogance, hiding facts, running away from answering
>> technical questions.
>
>Who said "Don't ask me, I'm not a programmer"? I tried to ask you a

And that makes you knowledgable?
Strange how you understand things.

>technical programming question since I thought that not even you would be
>stupid enough to post message after message dealing with programming issues
>and not be able to back anything up or at least go find a book somewhere
>and pretend like you know. I see that I made the horrible mistake of
>over-estimating you.
>

Yeah sure, just insisting on a wrong vision without any technical
experience(I have yet to see one that shows my explanation is wrong
besides insults,flames,rants and farts from your mouth/asshole), and
keeping that attitude, and going on and on in insisting like a mule,
shows how much knowledgeable you are, let alone that you have no
professional ethics if you are really a professional as you claim to
be.


>>
>>
>> As a matter of fact you show more and more of yourself on daily basis,
>> as this is getting tiresome, trying to communicate with a newbie like
>> you.
>
>Oh, I'm a newbie?

Do you doubt that?
It's obvious from your morals/attitude pal.

> I've interviewed college freshman for intern positions
>that could come up with better answers and definitions than you have.
>

Yeah, and I'm George Washington.

>>
>> You just graduated from your college/school/institute that's good,
>>but
>> you need some real experience in life, and most important of all some
>> basic reading and understanding skills,
>
>I along with other people have had to explain post word for word to you
>because you have misinterpreted the original post.
>

Who's other people?

I only see one, the rational Sheehy.<G>.
So much for your credibility.

>
>> a common sense would help
>> also, try to work on those issues rather than attacking
>
>I tried to have an intelligent debate with you but you are just grossly
>unprepared for any of it. I tried to ask your opinion on direct-hardware
>addressing from both a technical standpoint and a cost-benefit analysis
>standpoint but you were unable to respond. If you needed me to use short
>one syllable words you should have just told me.
>

Intelligent debate?When was that?

I only saw rude language, farting and ranting about your so called
knowledge, bashing the Amiga on no solid grounds.

As for being unable to respond, it's not my fault that you are blind.

>
>> and get back
>> to us when you have some basic moral put in you.
>
>Pot? Kettle? Black?
>

You're talking to yourself, kid.


>>
>> A for who's who here, you're in no position to evaluate anyone here,
>> you still need lots credit to even being taken seriously in an Amiga
>> discussion.
>
>Not as much as you need to be taken seriously in a discussion of the Mac or
>PC market.
>

Sorry to bust your bubbles pal, but you need to show some common
sense, let alone knowledge before even being considered as someone who
could be taken seriously, as for my knowledge in pc or Mac market, my
performance and selling volume in my work, my past history in the
market blows away jerks like you who just entered the arena and think
that they know something.

I can almost guarantee that you are one of those fools who never quit
farting and whining about their knowledge, but they are of no real
life experience besides having the computer which was too much for
them to understand.

Oh and feel free to killfile me, to prove that you cannot have a
rational and technical discussion, just like your other colleagues, as
I have no respect what so ever for rude jerks like you, and if you
wonder why, you started it, and several times I warned you, so bear
the results.

Bill Hoggett

unread,
Jul 10, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/10/97
to

On 07-Jul-97 Karl Thomas <kath...@nox.nyx.net> wrote:

>ARAMI <ar...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in article
><33ef1c34....@nntp.ix.netcom.com>...
>> On 5 Jul 1997 14:21:10 GMT
>> in article <01bc894e$890398e0$64c289ce@hitachi>
>> "Karl Thomas" <kath...@nox.nyx.net> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >ARAMI <ar...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in article
>> ><33d40e0d....@nntp.ix.netcom.com>...
>>
>> Where was that?when?facts?
>> Actually I saw everyone knowledgable posting back to correct your
>> bullshit, and if you still deny, you'll see message headers.

>Who? The only person who "corrected" me was someone who also said in the
>same message that Quicktime wasn't included as a standard part of the
>MacOS.

That was me. After drinking too much beer, no doubt. :^)

Marc Forrester

unread,
Jul 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/12/97