Apple's Deception (Re: New Mac Quadra uses IDE)
Francis Hsu
further (actually these excerpts from c.s.a.a pale in comparison to the ones
in mac.hardware):
she...@iastate.edu writes:
> Oh, I thought this was funny. I was in the grocery store and saw some Mac
>magazine talking about the new Quadra 620 or 630 or something.
Yeah, it's a laugh alright.
> Anyway, it said it had a 68040/66... sounded like it was clock doubled?
The 68040 is not clock doubled. Following is a bit taken out of a post by
Dale Adams, Apple engineer (thanks to Evan Torrie for posting a copy):
3) A 33 MHz '040 (LC or otherwise) does not run internally at 66 MHz, at
least not in the sense that the internal pipelines are clocked at that
speed. It is most certainly not "clock-doubled" in the same sense that an
x86DX2 processor is. The '040s do receive a clock that's 2X the processor
(& bus) clock speed. However, this is used to generate a set of internal
quadrature clocks that are used to gain some timing advantages in various
parts of chip. Instructions are not executed at a 66 MHz rate.
The key is that instructions are not executed at 66MHz, unlike in a 486DX2
for example. And Apple's marketing term for their 68040s now is "dual
clocked", not "clock doubled". What may be advertised as a 68040/66 is
nothing more than the CPU in the Quadra 650, which Apple marketed as a
33MHz 040.
she...@iastate.edu writes:
>From ISU's Microcomputer product newsletter:
>+ APPLE Back-to-School Specials (good until 10/12/94)
>+ Performa 636 (68LC040/66,4M/250M HD), Color Plus display, kbd .... $ 1336.00
>+ Performa 636 (68LC040/66, 8M/250M HD, CD), Color+ display, kbd ... $ 1622.00
> ^^^^^^^^^^
> They must have just put that in there and
> that Mac magazine as an August 1st joke, eh? :)
I hope ISU customers realize what a joke it is. Such advertisements will
lead them to believe that it's the fastest 68040 Mac ever.
>t93...@mail.vitech.fi writes:
>Joshua Wingell (win...@unx15.mro1.dec.com) wrote:
>: Ummm...I hate to break this to you, but...there is no 68040/66.
>: Clock doubling means that the 68040 would be 66MHz on the inside and
>: communicate with the outside at 33MHz. Since no such chip exists...
>: I don't know what you were looking at...or smoking! ;)
>
>Where have you been last couple months? 66/33 MHz version of '040 sure does
>exists.
What the responder calls a "66/33 Mhz" version is of the 040 is no different
from what the rest of the world calls, and what Apple used to call, the
33MHz 040. Mr. Wingell is correct that the 68040 is not 66MHz on the
inside. Instruction execution, pipeline and internal cache follow the
33MHz clock.
What's ultimately sad is that Apple marketing has changed the numbers,
persumably out of fear of PC clones. For them, what used to be a 25MHz
040 is now magically a 50MHz 040.
Francis
P.S. Read the entertaining flame fest thread "Clock-speed marketing" in
comp.sys.mac.hardware for a clearer picture of the confusion.
Crystal Love
my favorites are: (1) the Amiga doesn't have real multitasking - the Mac
does the same thing with the switcher, (2) The Mac runs at 40 MHz while
the Amiga only runs at 25 MHz (The WHOLE Amiga 3000 ran at 25 MHz while
the Mac mother board was 20 MHz with the cpu double clocked).
My hat is off to Apple marketing, although they had a lot of help from
Commodore. In sales, you sell the sizzle, not the steak. And in the
USA people will buy ANYTHING with a good sales pitch. Too bad that
not many of us buy according to most advanced technology. Oh, well...
Jerry Kuch
>The 68040 is not clock doubled. Following is a bit taken out of a post by
>Dale Adams, Apple engineer (thanks to Evan Torrie for posting a copy):
>
> 3) A 33 MHz '040 (LC or otherwise) does not run internally at 66 MHz, at
> least not in the sense that the internal pipelines are clocked at that
> speed. It is most certainly not "clock-doubled" in the same sense that an
> x86DX2 processor is. The '040s do receive a clock that's 2X the processor
> (& bus) clock speed. However, this is used to generate a set of internal
> quadrature clocks that are used to gain some timing advantages in various
> parts of chip. Instructions are not executed at a 66 MHz rate.
>
>The key is that instructions are not executed at 66MHz, unlike in a 486DX2
>for example. And Apple's marketing term for their 68040s now is "dual
>clocked", not "clock doubled". What may be advertised as a 68040/66 is
>nothing more than the CPU in the Quadra 650, which Apple marketed as a
>33MHz 040.
>
>lead them to believe that it's the fastest 68040 Mac ever.
Is this the University's computer shop that is producing this deceptive
advertising or is it actually coming from Apple itself?
If the latter, then Apple is getting even cheesier than Intel at marketing
and nomenclature gimmicks designed to confuse and deceive. Just one more
reason to root against them.
When looking at mini-war going on between Apple and the Intel-Microsoft-Borg
conspiracy, I really find myself inclined to root for the bad guy. It's
sort of like shouting out during an old Western: "Shoot the horses! It'll
stop the stagecoach! Shoot the horses!"
>P.S. Read the entertaining flame fest thread "Clock-speed marketing" in
> comp.sys.mac.hardware for a clearer picture of the confusion.
Cool... they'll have as much confusion as Intel with far less substance.
I can't wait for the 486RJ/69 to be released...
--
o | Jerry Kuch je...@cecm.sfu.ca | Try: http://www.cecm.sfu.ca |
_ |-----------------------------------------------------------------|
= | "Be careful with your skiing... people get killed you know." |
o o | -- David Ford |
Francis Hsu
: In article <335pd1$j...@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU> fra...@red-branch.MIT.EDU (Francis Hsu) writes:
: >
: >I hope ISU customers realize what a joke it is. Such advertisements will
: >lead them to believe that it's the fastest 68040 Mac ever.
: Is this the University's computer shop that is producing this deceptive
: advertising or is it actually coming from Apple itself?
Apple is now saying the 68040 is "dual clocked" and in their spec sheets
as of a couple of months ago list the CPU as being 50/25 and 66/33
(internal/bus). ISU, according to Mr. Sheldon, has been advertising the
new machines as having 66Mhz 040s with not even a mention of the 33Mhz clock
that actually matters. In my opinion, Apple is guilty of deception,
and whoever wrote up the ISU price list is probably just plain gullible
and ignorant.
: If the latter, then Apple is getting even cheesier than Intel at marketing
: and nomenclature gimmicks designed to confuse and deceive. Just one more
: reason to root against them.
Yes, Intel's DX2 marketing was irritating. (ie. a 486DX/50MHz is faster
than a 486DX2/50 when one would think a DX2 to be superior to a DX). What
Apple is doing now is even worse.
: Cool... they'll have as much confusion as Intel with far less substance.
: I can't wait for the 486RJ/69 to be released...
When the argument of whether the 040 was a clock-doubled chip first came up,
the confusion was bad enough even though nobody was marketing the 040 as
such. It took a post from a Motorola person (Skipper Smith I believe) to
clear that up. And now with Apple's lame marketing putting substance
behind a misconception, I wonder how long before this round of confusion
is ended.
: --
: o | Jerry Kuch je...@cecm.sfu.ca | Try: http://www.cecm.sfu.ca |
: _ |-----------------------------------------------------------------|
: = | "Be careful with your skiing... people get killed you know." |
: o o | -- David Ford |
Francis
Techs Avery
: Jerry Kuch (je...@reno.cecm.sfu.ca) wrote:
: : In article <335pd1$j...@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU> fra...@red-branch.MIT.EDU (Francis Hsu) writes:
: : >
: : >I hope ISU customers realize what a joke it is. Such advertisements will
: : >lead them to believe that it's the fastest 68040 Mac ever.
: : Is this the University's computer shop that is producing this deceptive
: : advertising or is it actually coming from Apple itself?
: Apple is now saying the 68040 is "dual clocked" and in their spec sheets
: as of a couple of months ago list the CPU as being 50/25 and 66/33
Isn't this entire thread moot when nobody, not Apple, not Motorola or
anyone else can claim the '040 is in the same league as the Power PC
series or Pentium series chips.
And graphics and sound coprocessors are evolving pretty fast on both types
of plaforms. Sound is still evolving nicely on the Amiga, at least one
product is. Graphics with some of the G cards on the Amiga are also
comparable. Though when you boost graphics and sound with cards, your
Amiga isn't quite as Amiga as it once was.
Still, You have to look at the specs, especially for compute intensive tasks.
Techs
--
Techs Avery
tksa...@netcom.com
Peter Kittel Germany
In article <336ffi$q...@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU>, fra...@red-branch.MIT.EDU (Francis Hsu) writes:
>
>Apple is now saying the 68040 is "dual clocked" and in their spec sheets
>as of a couple of months ago list the CPU as being 50/25 and 66/33
>(internal/bus). ISU, according to Mr. Sheldon, has been advertising the
>new machines as having 66Mhz 040s with not even a mention of the 33Mhz clock
>that actually matters. In my opinion, Apple is guilty of deception,
>and whoever wrote up the ISU price list is probably just plain gullible
>and ignorant.
Hmm, ok, then from now on we could offer our A4000 at 50 MHz. That's
also a perspective...
No, I also don't find it correct.
--
Best regards, Dr. Peter Kittel // E-Mail to \\ Only my personal opinions...
Commodore Frankfurt, Germany \X/ (pet...@cbmger.de.so.commodore.com)
peterk%cbmger.de.so....@cbmnl.cbm.nl
peterk%cbmger.de.so....@cbmvie.co.at
Dale Adams
cry...@ecst.csuchico.edu (Crystal Love) wrote:
> Apple marketing has really done it's job over the past decade. Two of
> my favorites are: (1) the Amiga doesn't have real multitasking - the Mac
> does the same thing with the switcher, (2) The Mac runs at 40 MHz while
> the Amiga only runs at 25 MHz (The WHOLE Amiga 3000 ran at 25 MHz while
> the Mac mother board was 20 MHz with the cpu double clocked).
Which Mac are you referring to here? Certainly not the Q840av - it's bus
runs at 40 MHz just like its '040 processor does. The old IIfx perhaps?
That's been discontinued for years now, but I believe portions of the
system did run at 20 MHz, although others ran at 40 MHz.
- Dale Adams
Dale Adams
(Jerry Kuch) wrote:
> In article <335pd1$j...@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU> fra...@red-branch.MIT.EDU (Francis Hsu) writes:
> >The 68040 is not clock doubled. Following is a bit taken out of a post by
> >Dale Adams, Apple engineer (thanks to Evan Torrie for posting a copy):
> >
> > 3) A 33 MHz '040 (LC or otherwise) does not run internally at 66 MHz, at
> > least not in the sense that the internal pipelines are clocked at that
> > speed. It is most certainly not "clock-doubled" in the same sense that an
> > x86DX2 processor is. The '040s do receive a clock that's 2X the processor
> > (& bus) clock speed. However, this is used to generate a set of internal
> > quadrature clocks that are used to gain some timing advantages in various
> > parts of chip. Instructions are not executed at a 66 MHz rate.
> >
> >The key is that instructions are not executed at 66MHz, unlike in a 486DX2
> >for example. And Apple's marketing term for their 68040s now is "dual
> >clocked", not "clock doubled". What may be advertised as a 68040/66 is
> >nothing more than the CPU in the Quadra 650, which Apple marketed as a
> >33MHz 040.
> >
> >I hope ISU customers realize what a joke it is. Such advertisements will
> >lead them to believe that it's the fastest 68040 Mac ever.
>
> Is this the University's computer shop that is producing this deceptive
> advertising or is it actually coming from Apple itself?
>
> If the latter, then Apple is getting even cheesier than Intel at marketing
> and nomenclature gimmicks designed to confuse and deceive. Just one more
> reason to root against them.
What Apple actually says is "66/33 MHz '040". This is factually true in
that the '040 does receive both 66 and 33 MHz clocks. However, it clearly
leads naive users to the conclusion that they're getting a 66 MHz processor
which is not the case. In this case, it sounds like the university's
computer shop has taken a few liberties with Apple's (somewhat misleading)
product description.
- Dale Adams