Amigas: Why so Expensive?
Brian and Jessica Wolters
overstocked original) Amiga so expensive? I could see paying that much if
they had a ton of ram and big hard drives, but this is outrageous. I want to
get a newer Amiga, but the current prices don't help!
Stephan Schaem
"Brian and Jessica Wolters" <wol...@alltel.net> wrote in message news:9253ng$95h$1...@iac5.navix.net...
Ram and HD space is cheap. <40$ for 128meg 133mhz sdram, <100 for 20gig HD.
Stephan
Brian and Jessica Wolters
used ones on auctions are going for near $1,000.
Brian
"Stephan Schaem" <tt...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:t4da7pk...@corp.supernews.com...
SG
Perhaps unfortunately, in a free market things sell for what they are
worth.
--
Steve.
Bill Hoggett
wrote:
Or, as in this case, *don't* sell.
--
Bill Hoggett
No prejudice. I hate Microsoft without prejudice...
SG
> In article <3A49149B.MD...@erols.com>, "SG" <sg...@erols.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Brian and Jessica Wolters<wol...@alltel.net> wrote:
> >
> >> This may be a dumb question or a moot point, but why are the new (and
> >> overstocked original) Amiga so expensive? I could see paying that much
> >> if they had a ton of ram and big hard drives, but this is outrageous. I
> >> want to get a newer Amiga, but the current prices don't help!
> >
> > Perhaps unfortunately, in a free market things sell for what they are
> > worth.
>
> Or, as in this case, *don't* sell.
Really, no one -actually- uses Amigas now, according to you?
--
Steve.
Bill Hoggett
Actually, no. What I said was that hardly anyone *buys* Amigas now,
unless it is to replace their own dead Amiga hardware.
When choosing a new computer, people just don't choose Amiga, and that is
a plain fact.
SG
> In article <3A49F7E7.MD...@erols.com>, sg...@erols.com says...
> > Bill Hoggett<bill_h...@lineone.net> wrote:
> >
> > > In article <3A49149B.MD...@erols.com>, "SG" <sg...@erols.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Brian and Jessica Wolters<wol...@alltel.net> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> This may be a dumb question or a moot point, but why are the new (and
> > > >> overstocked original) Amiga so expensive? I could see paying that much
> > > >> if they had a ton of ram and big hard drives, but this is outrageous. I
> > > >> want to get a newer Amiga, but the current prices don't help!
> > > >
> > > > Perhaps unfortunately, in a free market things sell for what they are
> > > > worth.
> > >
> > > Or, as in this case, *don't* sell.
> >
> > Really, no one -actually- uses Amigas now, according to you?
>
> Actually, no. What I said was that hardly anyone *buys* Amigas now,
> unless it is to replace their own dead Amiga hardware.
Thats known as an intial good buy.
> When choosing a new computer, people just don't choose Amiga, and that is
> a plain fact.
You are confusing the need to upgrade your hardware as often as one
can possibly afford, to achieve a more and more tolerable experience,
with satisfied customers. No one is claiming that satifying customers
is good marketing strategy.
--
Steve.
Bill Hoggett
> Thats known as an intial good buy.
> You are confusing the need to upgrade your hardware as often as one
> can possibly afford, to achieve a more and more tolerable experience,
> with satisfied customers. No one is claiming that satifying customers
> is good marketing strategy.
So, according to you, people don't buy Amigas any more because they're so
good.
Following that logic, good old Clive Sinclair made the best motor vehicle
ever manufactured.
The C5.
SG
> In article <3A4B06F0.MD...@erols.com>, sg...@erols.com says...
>
> > Thats known as an intial good buy.
>
> > You are confusing the need to upgrade your hardware as often as one
> > can possibly afford, to achieve a more and more tolerable experience,
> > with satisfied customers. No one is claiming that satifying customers
> > is good marketing strategy.
>
> So, according to you, people don't buy Amigas any more because they're so
> good.
Nope.
Amigans don't need to upgrade as quickly as they can afford (like
all the Windows users here do, with no exceptions) to get a tolerable
experience.
My 3 year old CS-PPC/CVPPC for example, is pure instant gratification
at all times. My K6-266 I'd liken to maybe 1/2 to 1/3rd of my
original A1000's overall speed.
> Following that logic, good old Clive Sinclair made the best motor vehicle
> ever manufactured.
>
> The C5.
Whatever.
--
Steve.
Stephan Schaem
"SG" <sg...@erols.com> wrote in message news:3A4B328F.MD...@erols.com...
> Bill Hoggett<bill_h...@lineone.net> wrote:
>
> > In article <3A4B06F0.MD...@erols.com>, sg...@erols.com says...
> >
> > > Thats known as an intial good buy.
> >
> > > You are confusing the need to upgrade your hardware as often as one
> > > can possibly afford, to achieve a more and more tolerable experience,
> > > with satisfied customers. No one is claiming that satifying customers
> > > is good marketing strategy.
> >
> > So, according to you, people don't buy Amigas any more because they're so
> > good.
>
> Nope.
>
> Amigans don't need to upgrade as quickly as they can afford (like
> all the Windows users here do, with no exceptions) to get a tolerable
> experience.
Thats false. You dont have reason to upgrade... those reason are :
the amiga platform dont have advance software available.
>
> My 3 year old CS-PPC/CVPPC for example, is pure instant gratification
> at all times. My K6-266 I'd liken to maybe 1/2 to 1/3rd of my
> original A1000's overall speed.
My Boosted A1000 is probably at least 20 time slower, to 50+ time slower
and worse case hundreds of time slower then my 2 years old PC (and cost
alot less too).
Even my A3000 is not match compared to my first PC at anything.
Stephan
SG
>
> "SG" <sg...@erols.com> wrote in message news:3A4B328F.MD...@erols.com...
> > Bill Hoggett<bill_h...@lineone.net> wrote:
> >
> > > In article <3A4B06F0.MD...@erols.com>, sg...@erols.com says...
> > >
> > > > Thats known as an intial good buy.
> > >
> > > > You are confusing the need to upgrade your hardware as often as one
> > > > can possibly afford, to achieve a more and more tolerable experience,
> > > > with satisfied customers. No one is claiming that satifying customers
> > > > is good marketing strategy.
> > >
> > > So, according to you, people don't buy Amigas any more because they're so
> > > good.
> >
> > Nope.
> >
> > Amigans don't need to upgrade as quickly as they can afford (like
> > all the Windows users here do, with no exceptions) to get a tolerable
> > experience.
>
> Thats false. You dont have reason to upgrade... those reason are :
> the amiga platform dont have advance software available.
Like the software we are currently discussing in other threads that
absolutely utterly demolishes everything available for Windows and
Linux?
> > My 3 year old CS-PPC/CVPPC for example, is pure instant gratification
> > at all times. My K6-266 I'd liken to maybe 1/2 to 1/3rd of my
> > original A1000's overall speed.
>
> My Boosted A1000 is probably at least 20 time slower, to 50+ time slower
> and worse case hundreds of time slower then my 2 years old PC (and cost
> alot less too).
> Even my A3000 is not match compared to my first PC at anything.
All Windows pcs are often (usually) orders of magnitude slower than
even a stock A1000. Just press a button and wait 5 seconds for
something to happen, to illustrate this. Heinous OS.
--
Steve.
s...@bodycount.dk
>> good.
>
>Nope.
>
>Amigans don't need to upgrade as quickly as they can afford (like
>all the Windows users here do, with no exceptions) to get a tolerable
>experience.
>
>My 3 year old CS-PPC/CVPPC for example, is pure instant gratification
>at all times. My K6-266 I'd liken to maybe 1/2 to 1/3rd of my
>original A1000's overall speed.
>
So you think that all Winblows users here, Upgrade konstantly because
they are unhappy with the Speed of Windows????
Guess my newest Speaker upgrade was because i disliked the Sound in
windows right?
Guess i Upgraded from Athlon600@800 to Tbird 800 because i knew
Windows would run faster on that Config?
Gues i just bought a second BPPC because i didnt like the first one?
:^)
SCA at Bodycount.dk
s...@bodycount.dk
>> My Boosted A1000 is probably at least 20 time slower, to 50+ time slower
>> and worse case hundreds of time slower then my 2 years old PC (and cost
>> alot less too).
>> Even my A3000 is not match compared to my first PC at anything.
>
>All Windows pcs are often (usually) orders of magnitude slower than
>even a stock A1000. Just press a button and wait 5 seconds for
>something to happen, to illustrate this. Heinous OS.
Ive never seen windows behaviur like this, your config must be broken
:^)
SCA at Bodycount.dk
SG
> >> So, according to you, people don't buy Amigas any more because they're so
> >> good.
> >
> >Nope.
> >
> >Amigans don't need to upgrade as quickly as they can afford (like
> >all the Windows users here do, with no exceptions) to get a tolerable
> >experience.
> >
> >My 3 year old CS-PPC/CVPPC for example, is pure instant gratification
> >at all times. My K6-266 I'd liken to maybe 1/2 to 1/3rd of my
> >original A1000's overall speed.
> >
>
> So you think that all Winblows users here, Upgrade konstantly because
> they are unhappy with the Speed of Windows????
Not just here.
--
Steve.
bme...@cs.monash.edu.au
>Following that logic, good old Clive Sinclair made the best motor vehicle
>ever manufactured.
>The C5.
But of course! Wouldn't want to take one on the German Autobahn, but for
local traffic.... Anyone know where I can get one?
Bernie
--
Gentleman, I am a Catholic... If you reject me on account of my
religion, I shall thank God that He has spared me the indignity of
being your representative
Hilaire Belloc
bme...@cs.monash.edu.au
>Thats false. You dont have reason to upgrade... those reason are :
>the amiga platform dont have advance software available.
The other reason he doesn't upgrade is that there is nothing to upgrade
to. He already has the fastest "real" hardware money can buy. Currently,
the only way to get a faster Amiga is to use UAE-JIT ;-) And we all know
how likely *that* is in Steve's case.
Bernie
--
When I want a peerage, I shall buy it like an honest man
Lord Northcliffe
British newspaper proprietor, 1865-1922
s...@bodycount.dk
>> >at all times. My K6-266 I'd liken to maybe 1/2 to 1/3rd of my
>> >original A1000's overall speed.
>> >
>>
>> So you think that all Winblows users here, Upgrade konstantly because
>> they are unhappy with the Speed of Windows????
>
>Not just here.
No your right, its in your head too!
SCA at Bodycount.dk
SG
> "Stephan Schaem" <tt...@mindspring.com> writes:
>
> >Thats false. You dont have reason to upgrade... those reason are :
> >the amiga platform dont have advance software available.
>
> The other reason he doesn't upgrade is that there is nothing to upgrade
> to. He already has the fastest "real" hardware money can buy. Currently,
> the only way to get a faster Amiga is to use UAE-JIT ;-) And we all know
> how likely *that* is in Steve's case.
A500-speed custom chip set (erroneous) software emulation is not "the
fastest Amiga one can buy."
--
Steve.
Karl Thomas
"Julian Cassin" <ninjaturtle..REMOVETHIS..@optushome.com.au> wrote in
message news:QGn36.20513$Xx3....@news1.eburwd1.vic.optushome.com.au...
> I reckon they are the cheapest computer you can get!
>
> Can you get a brand new Wintel machine for under $300?
>
> Nope...
>
> Julian
No but $399 buys you....
Intel®CeleronT 600 MHz (w/128KB L2 Cache) 10 GB HDD, 32MB, 40x Max. CD-ROM,
56k ITU V.90 Modem; Microsoft® Windows® Millennium Edition - the home
version of the World's favorite software and Sun® StarOfficeT 5.2.
SG
I think you forgot to note the "*" (<---since you are using 1980's
vintage software, you'll see that asterisk no problem) next to the
price. You know, the one that directs you to read the fine print
which obligates you to pay through the nose for internet service over
a ridiculous length of time, making it probably the worst buy of all
the pcs you could have quoted up there--not that all of them aren't
obsolete on the shelf, they are.
--
Steve.
Stephan Schaem
"SG" <sg...@erols.com> wrote in message news:3A4E2230.MD...@erols.com...
I check the link, and I saw nothing about obligation to pay for internet services.
Then I look at an online shop, and yea, its 399$ in your hands. (without shiping
and handling for a totaly complete PC .. well monitor aside).
http://www.solutions4sure.com/Product.asp?ProductID=113008
What you are totaly confused about is that this computer is "FREE" when
you actually get MSN internet services.
And MSN is actually <12$ a month.
So you get :
Intel®CeleronT 600 MHz (w/128KB L2 Cache) 10 GB HDD, 32MB, 40x Max. CD-ROM,
56k ITU V.90 Modem; Microsoft® Windows® Millennium Edition - the home
version of the World's favorite software and Sun® StarOfficeT 5.2. (not counting
the 16bit audio, 3d capabilites (opengl/ directx8), and all the other goodies.
+ 3 years of internet services hosted by MSN all turnkey for 394$.
Show me a brand new amiga with better inetrnet services for under 390$.
Now, to sell the deal I would add 128meg to the system for 37$...
Stephan
Bernd Felsche
>"Julian Cassin" <ninjaturtle..REMOVETHIS..@optushome.com.au> wrote in
>message news:QGn36.20513$Xx3....@news1.eburwd1.vic.optushome.com.au...
>> I reckon they are the cheapest computer you can get!
>>
>> Can you get a brand new Wintel machine for under $300?
>>
>> Nope...
>No but $399 buys you....
>IntelCeleronT 600 MHz (w/128KB L2 Cache) 10 GB HDD, 32MB, 40x Max. CD-ROM,
>56k ITU V.90 Modem; Microsoft Windows Millennium Edition - the home
>version of the World's favorite software and Sun StarOfficeT 5.2.
You want to run StarOffice 5.2 under LoseME with only 32MB of RAM?
What else do you do for fun? Have root-canal work done without
aneasthetic?
--
/"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia
\ / ASCII ribbon campaign | I'm a .signature virus! |
X against HTML mail | Copy me into your ~/.signature|
/ \ and postings | to help me spread! |
Stephan Schaem
"Bernd Felsche" <ber...@innovative.iinet.net.au> wrote in message news:92m51h$mua$1...@flywheel.innovative.iinet.net.au...
> "Karl Thomas" <kar...@nox.nyx.net> writes:
>
> >"Julian Cassin" <ninjaturtle..REMOVETHIS..@optushome.com.au> wrote in
> >message news:QGn36.20513$Xx3....@news1.eburwd1.vic.optushome.com.au...
> >> I reckon they are the cheapest computer you can get!
> >>
> >> Can you get a brand new Wintel machine for under $300?
> >>
> >> Nope...
>
> >No but $399 buys you....
>
> >http://www.e4me.com/
>
> >IntelCeleronT 600 MHz (w/128KB L2 Cache) 10 GB HDD, 32MB, 40x Max. CD-ROM,
> >56k ITU V.90 Modem; Microsoft Windows Millennium Edition - the home
> >version of the World's favorite software and Sun StarOfficeT 5.2.
>
> You want to run StarOffice 5.2 under LoseME with only 32MB of RAM?
>
> What else do you do for fun? Have root-canal work done without
> aneasthetic?
Didn't I mention one paragraph below:
Now, to sell the deal I would add 128meg to the system for 37$...
Is 160meg enought for StarOffice? Never used it...
Stephan
Stephan Schaem
"Bernd Felsche" <ber...@innovative.iinet.net.au> wrote in message news:92m51h$mua$1...@flywheel.innovative.iinet.net.au...
>
> >"Julian Cassin" <ninjaturtle..REMOVETHIS..@optushome.com.au> wrote in
> >message news:QGn36.20513$Xx3....@news1.eburwd1.vic.optushome.com.au...
> >> I reckon they are the cheapest computer you can get!
> >>
> >> Can you get a brand new Wintel machine for under $300?
> >>
> >> Nope...
>
> >No but $399 buys you....
>
> >http://www.e4me.com/
>
> >IntelCeleronT 600 MHz (w/128KB L2 Cache) 10 GB HDD, 32MB, 40x Max. CD-ROM,
> >56k ITU V.90 Modem; Microsoft Windows Millennium Edition - the home
> >version of the World's favorite software and Sun StarOfficeT 5.2.
>
> You want to run StarOffice 5.2 under LoseME with only 32MB of RAM?
>
> What else do you do for fun? Have root-canal work done without
> aneasthetic?
Sorry, I thought your reply was to my post on this subject...
Realize memory is cheap, I see 64meg module for 29$ so its not a
big issue.
Stephan
SG
> "Bernd Felsche" <ber...@innovative.iinet.net.au> wrote in message news:92m51h$mua$1...@flywheel.innovative.iinet.net.au...
> > You want to run StarOffice 5.2 under LoseME with only 32MB of RAM?
> >
> > What else do you do for fun? Have root-canal work done without
> > aneasthetic?
>
> Didn't I mention one paragraph below:
>
> Now, to sell the deal I would add 128meg to the system for 37$...
>
> Is 160meg enought for StarOffice? Never used it...
Under Windows? No way. 128MB machines are bog slow during everyday
operation.
--
Steve.
Karl Thomas
"Bernd Felsche" <ber...@innovative.iinet.net.au> wrote in message
news:92m51h$mua$1...@flywheel.innovative.iinet.net.au...
>
> >"Julian Cassin" <ninjaturtle..REMOVETHIS..@optushome.com.au> wrote in
> >message news:QGn36.20513$Xx3....@news1.eburwd1.vic.optushome.com.au...
> >> I reckon they are the cheapest computer you can get!
> >>
> >> Can you get a brand new Wintel machine for under $300?
> >>
> >> Nope...
>
> >No but $399 buys you....
>
> >http://www.e4me.com/
>
> >IntelCeleronT 600 MHz (w/128KB L2 Cache) 10 GB HDD, 32MB, 40x Max.
CD-ROM,
> >56k ITU V.90 Modem; Microsoft Windows Millennium Edition - the home
> >version of the World's favorite software and Sun StarOfficeT 5.2.
>
> You want to run StarOffice 5.2 under LoseME with only 32MB of RAM?
>
> What else do you do for fun? Have root-canal work done without
> aneasthetic?
> --
No I would buy 128MB RAM for $60. So tell me where can I get an Amiga with
those specs for under $500?
Karl Thomas
I know your higher order cognitive abilities aren't that great but I thought
you could at least read. This price is *without* any service agreement,
Please quote where you saw *any* mention of an internet agreement on the
website?
> Steve.
Stephan Schaem
"SG" <sg...@erols.com> wrote in message news:3A4E6561.MD...@erols.com...
Windows use 8 - 12meg? that 148meg or so for Sun staroffice. I'm sure
they will alot left over for the filecache.
What is slow about loading first world class software in a fraction of a second,
100+hz smoth realtime scrolling? You will tell me amiga boot faster, sure, but
the amiga crash prone OS demand this.
Stephan
Bernd Felsche
You don't *need* an Amiga with those spec's. An "equivalent" Amiga
needs about 8MB of RAM, a good graphics accelerator and a 25MHz
'040. Throw in some reasonable "office automation" software and
you're laughing. It can do the same job.
BTW: StirOffice is FREE. For Billware, Linux and Solaris (SPARC and
Inhell).
Bernd Felsche
It's "enough" under Lose98. Can't vouch for LoseME. Until it
context-switches. Often screws up with a fast modem connection.
Packet-retries galore - which most users won't see. They just see
"a slow modem".
Yep, you can do some things with StirOffice in "just" 128MB of RAM
and hundreds of MHz as well as enough waste heat to keep your coffee
warm. And you can read a book by the constant flicker of the disk
activity LED. :-)
Bill Hoggett
>
> No I would buy 128MB RAM for $60. So tell me where can I get an Amiga with
> those specs for under $500?
this thread.
IMO, price/performance, Amiga hardware just doesn't deliver. The OS had
much promise, but it was allowed to rot for far too long. Whether the
new one (that means OE, not 3.9) is going to be any good remains to be
seen.
I for one still live in hope.
Bill Hoggett
says...
Maybe, but it doesn't change the fact that the package is bundled with a
price point in mind: sub $400. A novice will be attracted by this not
realising the package doesn not offer all it appears to be. (StarOffice
will run under 32 MB, but it's not at all pleasant)
A fairer package would have been the above with 128 MB for, say, $440,
but that wouldn't have had the same "come hither, look at THIS price"
allure.
I don't like the idea of being forced to buy a 32 MB module as part of
the package either. It's little more than a waste of a slot these days.
Even the entry point is 64 MB.
Frankly, it's a pretty good example of obsolete hardware being flogged of
as a good "bargain". Let's look at it carefully:
IntelCeleron 600 MHz - Barely entry level
10 GB HDD - You can hardly buy a stand-alone 10GB HDD anymore, the entry
level is 20GB.
32MB - see above. Entry level is 64 MB.
40x Max. CD-ROM - nothing wrong with this, except I suspect it is a cheap
unbranded model.
56k ITU V.90 Modem - suspect WinModem, but otherwise no complaints.
Microsoft Windows Millennium Edition - Fair enough, this is up to date,
though not if expected to perform under 32 MB. It would have also been
nice if they offered the bundle MINUS the WinME OS, with the respective
price adjustment.
Sun StarOffice 5.2 - free software, and not well suited for a 32 MB
machine.
No mention of sound or graphics cards, so I assume these will be cheap
and nasty on-board solutions.
Not a very palatable system, even for under $400.
A better argument would have been to say that a new Amiga under $300 is a
pretty useless machine. If you wanted one with a half-decent
accelerator, a usable amount of memory, monitor, graphics card, more than
170MB hard disk, CD-ROM and expansion slots, you are looking at a
considerably larger budget.
Bill Hoggett
ber...@innovative.iinet.net.au says...
>
> You don't *need* an Amiga with those spec's. An "equivalent" Amiga
> needs about 8MB of RAM, a good graphics accelerator and a 25MHz
> '040. Throw in some reasonable "office automation" software and
> you're laughing. It can do the same job.
Make that 16MB and I'd almost agree with you - except that Amiga office
software is not as good as it ought to be IMO.
Still, you won't get a new Amiga like you described above for under $300.
> BTW: StirOffice is FREE. For Billware, Linux and Solaris (SPARC and
> Inhell).
And now that Sun have made it Open Source, and turned most of it into
OpenOffice 6.0x, maybe someone will port it to the Amiga. Then again, I
bet it would not run in 16MB RAM, eh?
Expect to see it on the new AmigaOE though.
John Sheehy
Bill Hoggett <bill_h...@lineone.net> wrote:
>Frankly, it's a pretty good example of obsolete hardware being flogged of
>as a good "bargain". Let's look at it carefully:
>
>IntelCeleron 600 MHz - Barely entry level
Hey now, I just spent $80 for mine, and it's chugging along at 900 MHz,
100MHz FSB.
I don't know anyone personally with a faster CPU.
Other than the gamer who has seen a favorite game running at 1.4 GHz,
who would be disappointed with a C600? The C600 is more than sufficient
for most people who are going to buy a budget machine. It's a perfect
match.
The 32 megs of RAM, now that's another story. No one should be running
any current version of Windows (other than CE) with 32 megs, if they're
interested in reasonable performance.
Most people would be happier with a P133 with 128 megs than a PIV-1.4GHz
with 32 megs of RAM, in a blindfold test.
--
<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<>
John P Sheehy <jsh...@ix.netcom.com>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>><
SG
>
> "SG" <sg...@erols.com> wrote in message news:3A4E6561.MD...@erols.com...
> > Stephan Schaem<tt...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> >
> > > "Bernd Felsche" <ber...@innovative.iinet.net.au> wrote in message news:92m51h$mua$1...@flywheel.innovative.iinet.net.au...
> > > > You want to run StarOffice 5.2 under LoseME with only 32MB of RAM?
> > > >
> > > > What else do you do for fun? Have root-canal work done without
> > > > aneasthetic?
> > >
> > > Didn't I mention one paragraph below:
> > >
> > > Now, to sell the deal I would add 128meg to the system for 37$...
> > >
> > > Is 160meg enought for StarOffice? Never used it...
> >
> > Under Windows? No way. 128MB machines are bog slow during everyday
> > operation.
>
> Windows use 8 - 12meg?
Then why does my *32MB* 266MHz Win98 machine take over 10x as long as
my 16MB CSPPC to do the jpeg test I just posted, and that you refuse
to post numbers for using your Mac and pc with 16MB available.
--
Steve.
SG
> In message <MPG.14b9459eb...@news.lineone.net>,
> Bill Hoggett <bill_h...@lineone.net> wrote:
>
> >Frankly, it's a pretty good example of obsolete hardware being flogged of
> >as a good "bargain". Let's look at it carefully:
> >
> >IntelCeleron 600 MHz - Barely entry level
>
> Hey now, I just spent $80 for mine, and it's chugging along at 900 MHz,
> 100MHz FSB.
>
> I don't know anyone personally with a faster CPU.
>
> Other than the gamer who has seen a favorite game running at 1.4 GHz,
> who would be disappointed with a C600? The C600 is more than sufficient
> for most people who are going to buy a budget machine. It's a perfect
> match.
>
> The 32 megs of RAM, now that's another story. No one should be running
> any current version of Windows (other than CE) with 32 megs, if they're
> interested in reasonable performance.
>
> Most people would be happier with a P133 with 128 megs than a PIV-1.4GHz
> with 32 megs of RAM, in a blindfold test.
Most people aren't happy with either. Take yourself for example...
Are you still using the 486 you were taughting as faster than my
CS-PPC when I bought it 3 years ago?
No.
Are you still using the P133 you bought after that?
No.
Are you still using the P233 you bought after that?
No.
Are you still using the C300 you bought after that?
No.
Are you still using the C450 you bought after that?
No.
Are you still using the C875 you bought after that?
So we are told.
Am I still using that CSPPC?
Why, yes I am.
Am I still overjoyed with my daily dose of utterly instant
gratification, that just blows away (not even close) any and all of
the relentlessly upgraded and replaced Windows machines that I'm
forced to use everyday (and my own dog 266MHz)?
Why yes I am.
Actions speak louder than words--you have yet to be satified with
your latest pc purchase, you just keep throwing good money after bad.
--
Steve.
Karl Thomas
> "Karl Thomas" <kar...@nox.nyx.net> writes:
> >No I would buy 128MB RAM for $60. So tell me where can I get an Amiga
with
> >those specs for under $500?
>
> You don't *need* an Amiga with those spec's. An "equivalent" Amiga
> needs about 8MB of RAM, a good graphics accelerator and a 25MHz
> '040. Throw in some reasonable "office automation" software and
> you're laughing. It can do the same job.
An '040-25 can:
1. Compress/decompress DIVX video.
2. Edit sounds (adjust tempo, mix, etc.)
3. Run Java applets
4. Run the latest emulators -- MAME, etc.
as fast as a 600Mhz Celeron? Let's not even mention games or programs like
Photoshop, Quark, etc.
BTW, you never did mention how much that "equivalent" Amiga would cost.
Karl Thomas
Because *you* either have a bad setup or are lying. *My* 200Mhz Gateway
laptop is consistently 2 to 3x as fast on every test that you have posted.
> Steve.
Karl Thomas
news:MPG.14b9459eb...@news.lineone.net...
> Maybe, but it doesn't change the fact that the package is bundled with a
> price point in mind: sub $400. A novice will be attracted by this not
> realising the package doesn not offer all it appears to be. (StarOffice
> will run under 32 MB, but it's not at all pleasant)
>
> A fairer package would have been the above with 128 MB for, say, $440,
> but that wouldn't have had the same "come hither, look at THIS price"
> allure.
>
> I don't like the idea of being forced to buy a 32 MB module as part of
> the package either. It's little more than a waste of a slot these days.
> Even the entry point is 64 MB.
>
> Frankly, it's a pretty good example of obsolete hardware being flogged of
> as a good "bargain". Let's look at it carefully:
You are not the target market. The entry level eMachinesis aimed at the
first time computer buyer, computer buyer on a budget, or at someone who is
buying a second computer for the kids, wife, etc.
When the eMachines/MSN instant rebate first came out where you could
literally walk out the store with a computer for $40, including tax.
14 people bought one on my recommendation. These were people who were
either in college or otherwise on a tigh budget. They were very happy that
they could get a computer that could do everything that their kids needed.
They would have paid around $19.95/mo for internet service either way and
most of them are from my hometown where a year and half later there is still
no hint of any high-speed access even if they did want it.
Note to Steve: The $399 is the base price, it cost -$1 with the rebate.
I personally bought the next higher up model at the time (mainly because the
lowest end model had shared video memory), a 400Mhz Celeron in June '99 and
since have added a 64MB/RAM, a 13GB HD, and a DVD ROM drive -- all free with
a rebate for Etrade.
>
> IntelCeleron 600 MHz - Barely entry level
Is it enough for the typical consumer? My 200Mhz laptop is fast enough for
the basics -- Office '97. Internet, and Vsual Studio.
>
> 10 GB HDD - You can hardly buy a stand-alone 10GB HDD anymore, the entry
> level is 20GB.
Is this not enough space for the target audience? There are plenty of
actuve users who still haven't filled up their 4GB HD -- including me.
>
> 32MB - see above. Entry level is 64 MB.
That is low, no argument there.
>
> 40x Max. CD-ROM - nothing wrong with this, except I suspect it is a cheap
> unbranded model.
Actually its a Samsung on mine, but who cares about the brand?
>
> 56k ITU V.90 Modem - suspect WinModem, but otherwise no complaints.
>
It's not a WinModem.
> Microsoft Windows Millennium Edition - Fair enough, this is up to date,
> though not if expected to perform under 32 MB. It would have also been
> nice if they offered the bundle MINUS the WinME OS, with the respective
> price adjustment.
Emachines sells on razor thin margins, the more customization they do the
more it would cost. Besides, Windows is usually sold for about $20 each for
OEM's.
>
> Sun StarOffice 5.2 - free software, and not well suited for a 32 MB
> machine.
>
> No mention of sound or graphics cards, so I assume these will be cheap
> and nasty on-board solutions.
>
As compared to the Amiga? The graphics are a little suspect on their lowest
end model -- shared memory. The sound hardware is decent though.
> Not a very palatable system, even for under $400.
>
Most of the people I know who bought the lowend model a year and half ago
are still quite happy with it. I'm happy with mine after adding 64MB RAM.
Stephan Schaem
"Bernd Felsche" <ber...@innovative.iinet.net.au> wrote in message news:92n9i9$opb$1...@flywheel.innovative.iinet.net.au...
> "Stephan Schaem" <tt...@mindspring.com> writes:
>
> >"Bernd Felsche" <ber...@innovative.iinet.net.au> wrote in message news:92m51h$mua$1...@flywheel.innovative.iinet.net.au...
> >> "Karl Thomas" <kar...@nox.nyx.net> writes:
> >>
> >> >"Julian Cassin" <ninjaturtle..REMOVETHIS..@optushome.com.au> wrote in
> >> >message news:QGn36.20513$Xx3....@news1.eburwd1.vic.optushome.com.au...
> >> >> I reckon they are the cheapest computer you can get!
> >> >>
> >> >> Can you get a brand new Wintel machine for under $300?
> >> >>
> >> >> Nope...
> >>
> >> >No but $399 buys you....
> >>
> >> >http://www.e4me.com/
> >>
> >> >IntelCeleronT 600 MHz (w/128KB L2 Cache) 10 GB HDD, 32MB, 40x Max. CD-ROM,
> >> >56k ITU V.90 Modem; Microsoft Windows Millennium Edition - the home
> >> >version of the World's favorite software and Sun StarOfficeT 5.2.
> >>
> >> You want to run StarOffice 5.2 under LoseME with only 32MB of RAM?
> >>
> >> What else do you do for fun? Have root-canal work done without
> >> aneasthetic?
>
> >Didn't I mention one paragraph below:
>
> >Now, to sell the deal I would add 128meg to the system for 37$...
>
> >Is 160meg enought for StarOffice? Never used it...
>
> It's "enough" under Lose98. Can't vouch for LoseME. Until it
> context-switches. Often screws up with a fast modem connection.
I never, ever had that happen. But on my amiga even a 56K connection
on the serial port was considered a Feat of wonder.
> Packet-retries galore - which most users won't see. They just see
> "a slow modem".
Again, never seen this. My xfer speed alway where above rated connection bps.
>
> Yep, you can do some things with StirOffice in "just" 128MB of RAM
> and hundreds of MHz as well as enough waste heat to keep your coffee
> warm. And you can read a book by the constant flicker of the disk
> activity LED. :-)
Microsoft Office seem much better memory wise then...
Stephan
Stephan Schaem
"SG" <sg...@erols.com> wrote in message news:3A4F15D9.MD...@erols.com...
I dont own any mac. Also, I dont know all the background services your win98
system is running. ~12 + n + the apps + the 14megs? the image take decompressed
+ the 1.5meg the image possibly take doesn't fit the 32meg footprint.
Plus, does your PC use shared memory and some is reserved by the video device?
Also windows use system memory as dynamic cache. etc...
I see laptop 64meg memory module from ~40$... Why dont you get one?
Are you afraid?
Stephan
Stephan Schaem
If this system is only use for email, and basic task, 32meg will be acceptable.
Thats not the only system they sell.
Also I see 133mhz PC133 64meg module selling for 19$.. they could maybe take
out the 32meg one saving 5$? and so add 15$ to the price... still over 399$.
I did see it for 394$ tho :)
>
> I don't like the idea of being forced to buy a 32 MB module as part of
> the package either. It's little more than a waste of a slot these days.
> Even the entry point is 64 MB.
You are beying picky... there system support 2 memory slot. You could
add an extra 256meg before having to let go the 32meg...
Who will want to install 512 meg in a sub 400$ system?
>
> Frankly, it's a pretty good example of obsolete hardware being flogged of
> as a good "bargain". Let's look at it carefully:
>
> IntelCeleron 600 MHz - Barely entry level
Its an 80$ part. And are you telling me its not enought processing power?!?!?!!?!?!?
>
> 10 GB HDD - You can hardly buy a stand-alone 10GB HDD anymore, the entry
> level is 20GB.
Stil they sell for ~85 a unit. Are you saying 'Hither' will run out of space with 10gig?
>
> 32MB - see above. Entry level is 64 MB.
True, but spend 20$ and update that to 96meg.
>
> 40x Max. CD-ROM - nothing wrong with this, except I suspect it is a cheap
> unbranded model.
Yep, thats one part the warranty what have to be used.
Probably 25-30$.
>
> 56k ITU V.90 Modem - suspect WinModem, but otherwise no complaints.
>
10-20$?
> Microsoft Windows Millennium Edition - Fair enough, this is up to date,
> though not if expected to perform under 32 MB. It would have also been
> nice if they offered the bundle MINUS the WinME OS, with the respective
> price adjustment.
Yes, but then they would have gone thru all the logistic for less potential
custumers then their is button on a mac mouse (ok: exageration alert:)
Its not worth for them, they would lose money from doing this.
>
> Sun StarOffice 5.2 - free software, and not well suited for a 32 MB
> machine.
True. but do you see billy bob grandma going to the sun site and downloading
staroffice on a 56k memodem?
>
> No mention of sound or graphics cards, so I assume these will be cheap
> and nasty on-board solutions.
Its the I752, and this work really well unless you run opengl and direct3d >640x480.
I dont expect this 399$ system to be a gaming gear, when you see video card like
the GTS2 ultra selling for >400$.
Crystal CS4281 for audio...
Motherboard is probably ~80$ (3 pci slot)
>
> Not a very palatable system, even for under $400.
Case, keyboard, mouse, floppy, speakers : 60-80$?
Assembly/ OS installation? 20 - 50$?
WindowsME OEM : 80$? (I see the ugrade as low as 36$ from 98)
That all add up to close to 500$, and if you where to pay for internet services
at 12$ a month a home make PC would cost you 500$ more then this PC.
>
> A better argument would have been to say that a new Amiga under $300 is a
> pretty useless machine. If you wanted one with a half-decent
> accelerator, a usable amount of memory, monitor, graphics card, more than
> 170MB hard disk, CD-ROM and expansion slots, you are looking at a
> considerably larger budget.
I beleive this ~450$ PC (160meg) is decent...
Ok so : 394$ for a complete system without monitor and 10minuts and 40$
to upgrade to 160meg. With the given specs.
Now... what NEW amiga , totaly prebuilt can you get for 400$?
I'm just curios.. an A1200 + 2gig drive?
Stephan
John Sheehy
"Stephan Schaem" <tt...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>I see laptop 64meg memory module from ~40$... Why dont you get one?
I have a laptop that takes the same memory that his does. The cheapest
I've seen it is $159 for the 64 meg module.
I didn't request this laptop, though. It was assigned to me for school.
I continue to use it with 32 megs, when I have to. It is easily about
1/10th the speed of my desktop in everyday operation, sometimes even far
slower. For example, Excel2000 opens in about 0.25 seconds the first
time on my desktop, and about one video refresh thereafter. On my
laptop, it takes about 8 to 10 seconds the first time, and doesn't
improve afterward, except a litte bit (5 to 7 seconds) if I just close
it and open it again.
Stephan Schaem
"Bernd Felsche" <ber...@innovative.iinet.net.au> wrote in message news:92n9uo$or3$1...@flywheel.innovative.iinet.net.au...
How much for a good graphics accelerator? how much for a new 25mhz A4000?
How much for 8meg memory for the A4000? Modem? 16bit audio IO?
Good flash support ? Can stream real & wm streams?
>
> BTW: StirOffice is FREE. For Billware, Linux and Solaris (SPARC and
> Inhell).
But do you see grand ma on a56k modem connecting to sun and installing
the package?!?!?!
Stephan
Stephan Schaem
"Bill Hoggett" <bill_h...@lineone.net> wrote in message news:MPG.14b947bfc...@news.lineone.net...
> In article <evCVWwucAHA.274@cpmsnbbsa09>, kar...@nox.nyx.net says...
> >
> > No I would buy 128MB RAM for $60. So tell me where can I get an Amiga with
> > those specs for under $500?
>
> You can't, even at used prices - and that's the whole point that started
> this thread.
>
> IMO, price/performance, Amiga hardware just doesn't deliver. The OS had
> much promise, but it was allowed to rot for far too long. Whether the
> new one (that means OE, not 3.9) is going to be any good remains to be
> seen.
OE is not evolutif (or am I wrong)... OE seem like a brand new thing with the
name amiga slaped on it.
To me their is alot more then a kernel (having it taking 16K doens't make it better)
to have a good OS. OFFICIAL API of quality is a must. And like you know, I'm
very impressed with Directx8 in that requard.
>
> I for one still live in hope.
I seen BeOS, I seen QNX , no so many linux install tho. But after evaluation
I see no hope of anyone catching up with MS.
Stephan
d...@foo.bar
Felsche) wrote:
>>No I would buy 128MB RAM for $60. So tell me where can I get an Amiga with
>>those specs for under $500?
>
>You don't *need* an Amiga with those spec's. An "equivalent" Amiga
>needs about 8MB of RAM, a good graphics accelerator and a 25MHz
>'040. Throw in some reasonable "office automation" software and
>you're laughing. It can do the same job.
That's nice. Unfortunately, with a warranty, already setup with all
that software and a modem and all the things that people would need,
it's far more than $399. Labor and setup time has huge value, too.
d...@foo.bar
Felsche) wrote:
>>No but $399 buys you....
>
>>http://www.e4me.com/
>
>>IntelCeleronT 600 MHz (w/128KB L2 Cache) 10 GB HDD, 32MB, 40x Max. CD-ROM,
>>56k ITU V.90 Modem; Microsoft Windows Millennium Edition - the home
>>version of the World's favorite software and Sun StarOfficeT 5.2.
>
>You want to run StarOffice 5.2 under LoseME with only 32MB of RAM?
>
>What else do you do for fun? Have root-canal work done without
>aneasthetic?
Or, if you're like most people with AOL or C-Serve as an ISP, you can
get a FREE computer (with a 3 year service agreement) - 64M HP Celeron
633, if memory serves, with 20G HD - actually not a bad little
computer - free. info.compusa.com - I think it's just today and
tomorrow, but similar deals have existed for ages.
Tom and Lisa Peters
SG wrote:
>
> John Sheehy<jsh...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> > Most people would be happier with a P133 with 128 megs than a PIV-1.4GHz
> > with 32 megs of RAM, in a blindfold test.
>
> Most people aren't happy with either. Take yourself for example...
>
> Are you still using the 486 you were taughting as faster than my
> CS-PPC when I bought it 3 years ago?
>
> No.
>
> Are you still using the P133 you bought after that?
>
> No.
>
> Are you still using the P233 you bought after that?
>
> No.
>
> Are you still using the C300 you bought after that?
>
> No.
>
The 300 and 450 are the same chip Steve.
> Are you still using the C450 you bought after that?
>
> No.
>
> Are you still using the C875 you bought after that?
>
> So we are told.
>
> Am I still using that CSPPC?
>
> Why, yes I am.
>
Hahahahaha.. thats because you have no choice in the matter.
You have nowhere to go. You have the best Amiga hardware available now,
and perhapts forever.
> Am I still overjoyed with my daily dose of utterly instant
> gratification, that just blows away (not even close) any and all of
You overwrought hyperbole blows us away.
> the relentlessly upgraded and replaced Windows machines that I'm
> forced to use everyday (and my own dog 266MHz)?
>
> Why yes I am.
>
> Actions speak louder than words--you have yet to be satified with
> your latest pc purchase, you just keep throwing good money after bad.
If actions speak louder than words, why are most people _not_ buying
Amiga (which is the action of buying) ?
> Steve.
Mad Dog
Paul Smith
"Stephan Schaem" <tt...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:t4v5seq...@corp.supernews.com...
You just go to their website and fill in a form - they'll ship a CD to
you... at least they did with Star Office 5.2. I used it for about a day
before uninstalling it and consigning the CD to the small round filing
cabinet on the floor...
--
--==> Paul Smith <==--
d...@foo.bar
<bill_h...@lineone.net> wrote:
>Maybe, but it doesn't change the fact that the package is bundled with a
>price point in mind: sub $400. A novice will be attracted by this not
>realising the package doesn not offer all it appears to be. (StarOffice
>will run under 32 MB, but it's not at all pleasant)
>
>A fairer package would have been the above with 128 MB for, say, $440,
>but that wouldn't have had the same "come hither, look at THIS price"
>allure.
Given that 256MB is $80 these days, I think they can be more
competitive than that. I see 64MB in "free" HPs these days (Celeron
633s; $400 if no MS rebate...)
>I don't like the idea of being forced to buy a 32 MB module as part of
>the package either. It's little more than a waste of a slot these days.
>Even the entry point is 64 MB.
Hint: Pick the HP.
>Frankly, it's a pretty good example of obsolete hardware being flogged of
>as a good "bargain". Let's look at it carefully:
>IntelCeleron 600 MHz - Barely entry level
I'm *still* using a P2/450. The C600 is probably pretty similar
speedwise given the 66 mhz fsb. And for just $400, set up and
ready, that's not -that- bad.
>10 GB HDD - You can hardly buy a stand-alone 10GB HDD anymore, the entry
>level is 20GB.
40GB is $100, or 1/4 the entire purchase price; 20GB 7200 RPMs are
$100 these days at CUSA. HP's $400 box has a 20G 5400 RPM drive.
>32MB - see above. Entry level is 64 MB.
Buy HP. 64M.
>40x Max. CD-ROM - nothing wrong with this, except I suspect it is a cheap
>unbranded model.
For all that most people would use the CD (loading apps) who cares?
>56k ITU V.90 Modem - suspect WinModem, but otherwise no complaints.
Big deal; CPUs are fast enough that it's not a big issue anymore.
>Microsoft Windows Millennium Edition - Fair enough, this is up to date,
>though not if expected to perform under 32 MB. It would have also been
>nice if they offered the bundle MINUS the WinME OS, with the respective
>price adjustment.
Why? What normal consumer buys a PC without an OS?
>Sun StarOffice 5.2 - free software, and not well suited for a 32 MB
>machine.
It's decent for the price.
>No mention of sound or graphics cards, so I assume these will be cheap
>and nasty on-board solutions.
i810 chipset, so i752 graphics. Not bad for an on-board solution - a
big step up from the Rage Pros that were common for so long. The
on-board sound can come from any of a bunch of vendors; mostly it's
fine for 2d audio.
>Not a very palatable system, even for under $400.
The RAM is the only issue, and HP's 64M/20G/633 Cel. is a better deal.
John Sheehy
<9B05F7FD4CD8A9E3.3F7E2616...@lp.airnews.net>,
d...@foo.bar wrote:
>I'm *still* using a P2/450. The C600 is probably pretty similar
>speedwise given the 66 mhz fsb.
Not really. 66MHz FSB does not bottleneck very much on a 600 MHz CPU,
unless you're doing a lot of raw memory operations.
John Sheehy
John Sheehy <jsh...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>In message
><9B05F7FD4CD8A9E3.3F7E2616...@lp.airnews.net>,
>d...@foo.bar wrote:
>
>>I'm *still* using a P2/450. The C600 is probably pretty similar
>>speedwise given the 66 mhz fsb.
>
>Not really. 66MHz FSB does not bottleneck very much on a 600 MHz CPU,
>unless you're doing a lot of raw memory operations.
Not to mention that the P2/450's L2 cache is only 225 MHz, compared to
600 MHz on the C600 (though it is half as large).
d...@foo.bar
<jsh...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>In message
><9B05F7FD4CD8A9E3.3F7E2616...@lp.airnews.net>,
>d...@foo.bar wrote:
>
>>I'm *still* using a P2/450. The C600 is probably pretty similar
>>speedwise given the 66 mhz fsb.
>
>Not really. 66MHz FSB does not bottleneck very much on a 600 MHz CPU,
>unless you're doing a lot of raw memory operations.
Opinions vary; I flatly disagree with you here.
See http://firingsquad.gamers.com/hardware/cel600vsdur600/page3.asp
for why I believe this. The C600 is at 254, the P3/600 is at 380 3d
CPU Marks, to pick one random test.
Ah, got it - here:
http://firingsquad.gamers.com/hardware/bh6celeron2/page5.asp
The C300@450 (which, hopefully, we can agree is at least somewhat
representative of the P2/450) is at 256. That's VERY close to the
C600's 254. Hot damn: I was right on the money for that test.
Q3 Fastest - C600->84.8; P2/450->74. Granted, a bit of a difference
there. Of course, with the i752 graphics chipset on the C600, I
suspect my machine will still be significantly faster....<g>
So, I guess I can say that my P2/450 is now only 88% of the speed of
the slowest, lowest end new PCs out there in Q3 tests, and pretty much
the same for some pure CPU tests. From now on, I don't want to hear
any complaints about how that's too slow. :)
SG
It depends what Amiga you buy, any of which provide an experience
thats completely different from a pc. Obviously.
--
Steve.
SG
> On Sun, 31 Dec 2000 16:40:05 -0000, Bill Hoggett
> <bill_h...@lineone.net> wrote:
>
> >Maybe, but it doesn't change the fact that the package is bundled with a
> >price point in mind: sub $400. A novice will be attracted by this not
> >realising the package doesn not offer all it appears to be. (StarOffice
> >will run under 32 MB, but it's not at all pleasant)
> >
> >A fairer package would have been the above with 128 MB for, say, $440,
> >but that wouldn't have had the same "come hither, look at THIS price"
> >allure.
>
> Given that 256MB is $80 these days, I think they can be more
> competitive than that. I see 64MB in "free" HPs these days (Celeron
> 633s; $400 if no MS rebate...)
Can Amigan imagine -seriously- entertaining the need to upgrad to
the kind resources that follow?
This is csaa, DC.
--
Steve.
SG
>
>
> SG wrote:
> >
> > John Sheehy<jsh...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> > > Most people would be happier with a P133 with 128 megs than a PIV-1.4GHz
> > > with 32 megs of RAM, in a blindfold test.
> >
> > Most people aren't happy with either. Take yourself for example...
> >
> > Are you still using the 486 you were taughting as faster than my
> > CS-PPC when I bought it 3 years ago?
> >
> > No.
> >
> > Are you still using the P133 you bought after that?
> >
> > No.
> >
> > Are you still using the P233 you bought after that?
> >
> > No.
> >
> > Are you still using the C300 you bought after that?
> >
> > No.
> >
>
> The 300 and 450 are the same chip Steve.
Even if you give him the twofer-one deal there, the point is
sufficiently overwhelming, as you obviously know, as you refused to
address it.
> > Are you still using the C450 you bought after that?
> >
> > No.
> >
> > Are you still using the C875 you bought after that?
> >
> > So we are told.
> >
> > Am I still using that CSPPC?
> >
> > Why, yes I am.
> >
>
> Hahahahaha.. thats because you have no choice in the matter.
> You have nowhere to go. You have the best Amiga hardware available now,
> and perhapts forever.
>
> > Am I still overjoyed with my daily dose of utterly instant
> > gratification, that just blows away (not even close) any and all of
>
> You overwrought hyperbole blows us away.
Too bad you haven't actually experience such wonders. :^)
> > the relentlessly upgraded and replaced Windows machines that I'm
> > forced to use everyday (and my own dog 266MHz)?
> >
> > Why yes I am.
> >
> > Actions speak louder than words--you have yet to be satified with
> > your latest pc purchase, you just keep throwing good money after bad.
>
> If actions speak louder than words, why are most people _not_ buying
> Amiga (which is the action of buying) ?
Most people don't by Lambos either.
--
Steve.
SG
> On 31 Dec 2000 10:18:25 +0800, ber...@innovative.iinet.net.au (Bernd
> Felsche) wrote:
>
> >>No but $399 buys you....
> >
> >>http://www.e4me.com/
> >
> >>IntelCeleronT 600 MHz (w/128KB L2 Cache) 10 GB HDD, 32MB, 40x Max. CD-ROM,
> >>56k ITU V.90 Modem; Microsoft Windows Millennium Edition - the home
> >>version of the World's favorite software and Sun StarOfficeT 5.2.
> >
> >You want to run StarOffice 5.2 under LoseME with only 32MB of RAM?
> >
> >What else do you do for fun? Have root-canal work done without
> >aneasthetic?
>
> Or, if you're like most people with AOL or C-Serve as an ISP, you can
> get a FREE computer (with a 3 year service agreement) -
"Free" for just $900.
And obviously Amigans in csaa don't want a "free" $900 computer, they
want a "free" Amiga, which that, unfortunately, is not.
--
Steve.
SG
> "Bernd Felsche" <ber...@innovative.iinet.net.au> wrote in message news:92n9i9$opb$1...@flywheel.innovative.iinet.net.au...
> > It's "enough" under Lose98. Can't vouch for LoseME. Until it
> > context-switches. Often screws up with a fast modem connection.
>
> I never, ever had that happen. But on my amiga even a 56K connection
> on the serial port was considered a Feat of wonder.
Bjørnar already posted that WinME (what a name, talk about marketing
to the lowest common denominator--just embarrassing), introduced bugs
that prevented him from connecting via UAE.
> > Packet-retries galore - which most users won't see. They just see
> > "a slow modem".
>
> Again, never seen this. My xfer speed alway where above rated connection bps.
>
> >
> > Yep, you can do some things with StirOffice in "just" 128MB of RAM
> > and hundreds of MHz as well as enough waste heat to keep your coffee
> > warm. And you can read a book by the constant flicker of the disk
> > activity LED. :-)
>
> Microsoft Office seem much better memory wise then...
Its a sad day when you get such stiff competition from MS for the
title of "Software Most Likely to Make You Want a Root Canal."
--
Steve.
SG
>
> "SG" <sg...@erols.com> wrote in message news:3A4F15D9.MD...@erols.com...
> > Stephan Schaem<tt...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > "SG" <sg...@erols.com> wrote in message news:3A4E6561.MD...@erols.com...
> > > > Stephan Schaem<tt...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > "Bernd Felsche" <ber...@innovative.iinet.net.au> wrote in message news:92m51h$mua$1...@flywheel.innovative.iinet.net.au...
> > > > > > You want to run StarOffice 5.2 under LoseME with only 32MB of RAM?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > What else do you do for fun? Have root-canal work done without
> > > > > > aneasthetic?
> > > > >
> > > > > Didn't I mention one paragraph below:
> > > > >
> > > > > Now, to sell the deal I would add 128meg to the system for 37$...
> > > > >
> > > > > Is 160meg enought for StarOffice? Never used it...
> > > >
> > > > Under Windows? No way. 128MB machines are bog slow during everyday
> > > > operation.
> > >
> > > Windows use 8 - 12meg?
> >
> > Then why does my *32MB* 266MHz Win98 machine take over 10x as long as
> > my 16MB CSPPC to do the jpeg test I just posted, and that you refuse
> > to post numbers for using your Mac and pc with 16MB available.
>
> I dont own any mac. Also, I dont know all the background services your win98
> system is running.
You don't know the background processes the Amiga is running either,
like a whole other OS, for example.
>~12 + n + the apps + the 14megs? the image take decompressed
> + the 1.5meg the image possibly take doesn't fit the 32meg footprint.
> Plus, does your PC use shared memory and some is reserved by the video device?
> Also windows use system memory as dynamic cache. etc...
>
> I see laptop 64meg memory module from ~40$... Why dont you get one?
> Are you afraid?
Yes, I'm afraid to throw good money after bad. I use an assortment of
"fast" 128MB machines all day every day, all are just plain -terrible-
performers by direct comparision to my Amiga. What Amiga are you
comparing to directly every day?
--
Steve.
SG
> If this system is only use for email, and basic task, 32meg will be acceptable.
> Thats not the only system they sell.
Dell recommends an _/absolute/ *minimum*_ of 700MHz and 128MB of RAM
for basic email.
http://dellapp.us.dell.com/pp1/dhs/assistance_desktop.asp
--
Steve.
SG
> > Then why does my *32MB* 266MHz Win98 machine take over 10x as long as
> > my 16MB CSPPC to do the jpeg test I just posted, and that you refuse
> > to post numbers for using your Mac and pc with 16MB available.
> > --
> >
>
> Because *you* either have a bad setup or are lying. *My* 200Mhz Gateway
> laptop is consistently 2 to 3x as fast on every test that you have posted.
Then post actual verifyable numbers.
--
Steve.
Karl Thomas
> <d...@foo.bar> wrote:
>
> > On 31 Dec 2000 10:18:25 +0800, ber...@innovative.iinet.net.au (Bernd
> > Felsche) wrote:
> >
> > >>No but $399 buys you....
> > >
> > >>http://www.e4me.com/
> > >
> > >>IntelCeleronT 600 MHz (w/128KB L2 Cache) 10 GB HDD, 32MB, 40x Max.
CD-ROM,
> > >>56k ITU V.90 Modem; Microsoft Windows Millennium Edition - the home
> > >>version of the World's favorite software and Sun StarOfficeT 5.2.
> > >
> > >You want to run StarOffice 5.2 under LoseME with only 32MB of RAM?
> > >
> > >What else do you do for fun? Have root-canal work done without
> > >aneasthetic?
> >
> > Or, if you're like most people with AOL or C-Serve as an ISP, you can
> > get a FREE computer (with a 3 year service agreement) -
>
> "Free" for just $900.
>
So where do you get 21.95*36 = 900?
$10.88/mo. { (790.82-400)/36 } is not a bad price for unlimited internet
access.
Karl Thomas
Haven't we been through this before? a 700Mhz Celeron is selling for
$50/ea. in bulk. If they could get 400Mhz Celerons for free it would only
save $50 in total system price.
Karl Thomas
I have posted my numbers on *every* single "test" that you have posted and
mine have always been faster.
Tom and Lisa Peters
SG wrote:
>
> Tom and Lisa Peters<gionp...@home.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > SG wrote:
> > >
> > > Am I still using that CSPPC?
> > >
> > > Why, yes I am.
> > >
> >
> > Hahahahaha.. thats because you have no choice in the matter.
> > You have nowhere to go. You have the best Amiga hardware available now,
> > and perhapts forever.
> >
> > > Am I still overjoyed with my daily dose of utterly instant
> > > gratification, that just blows away (not even close) any and all of
> >
> > You overwrought hyperbole blows us away.
>
> Too bad you haven't actually experience such wonders. :^)
>
Steve, we (i.e. the rest of csaa) experience your overwrought hyperbole
every time you post. Hardly a rare occurance.
> > > the relentlessly upgraded and replaced Windows machines that I'm
> > > forced to use everyday (and my own dog 266MHz)?
> > >
> > > Why yes I am.
> > >
> > > Actions speak louder than words--you have yet to be satified with
> > > your latest pc purchase, you just keep throwing good money after bad.
> >
> > If actions speak louder than words, why are most people _not_ buying
> > Amiga (which is the action of buying) ?
>
> Most people don't by Lambos either.
Maybe most people dont _want_ Lambos.
> Steve.
Mad Dog
Stephan Schaem
"SG" <sg...@erols.com> wrote in message news:3A50C204.MD...@erols.com...
You are so naive and stupid... I dont even think you grasp what you post.
Stephan
Bernd Felsche
>"Bernd Felsche" <ber...@innovative.iinet.net.au> wrote in message news:92n9uo$or3$1...@flywheel.innovative.iinet.net.au...
>> "Karl Thomas" <kar...@nox.nyx.net> writes:
>>
>> >"Bernd Felsche" <ber...@innovative.iinet.net.au> wrote in message
>> >news:92m51h$mua$1...@flywheel.innovative.iinet.net.au...
>> >> "Karl Thomas" <kar...@nox.nyx.net> writes:
>> >>
>> >> >"Julian Cassin" <ninjaturtle..REMOVETHIS..@optushome.com.au> wrote in
>> >> >message news:QGn36.20513$Xx3....@news1.eburwd1.vic.optushome.com.au...
>> >> >> I reckon they are the cheapest computer you can get!
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Can you get a brand new Wintel machine for under $300?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Nope...
>> >>
>> >> >No but $399 buys you....
>> >>
>> >> >http://www.e4me.com/
>> >>
>> >> >IntelCeleronT 600 MHz (w/128KB L2 Cache) 10 GB HDD, 32MB, 40x
>> >> >Max. CD-ROM, 56k ITU V.90 Modem; Microsoft Windows Millennium
>> >> >Edition - the home version of the World's favorite software
>> >> >and Sun StarOfficeT 5.2.
>> >>
>> >> You want to run StarOffice 5.2 under LoseME with only 32MB of RAM?
>> >>
>> >> What else do you do for fun? Have root-canal work done without
>> >> aneasthetic?
>> >No I would buy 128MB RAM for $60. So tell me where can I get an
>> >Amiga with those specs for under $500?
>> You don't *need* an Amiga with those spec's. An "equivalent" Amiga
>> needs about 8MB of RAM, a good graphics accelerator and a 25MHz
>> '040. Throw in some reasonable "office automation" software and
>> you're laughing. It can do the same job.
>How much for a good graphics accelerator? how much for a new 25mhz A4000?
>How much for 8meg memory for the A4000? Modem? 16bit audio IO?
8meg for the A4000 is "free". Pick it up for a few $s. "Nobody"
wants 4MB SIMMS. Modems cost a few $s at most... external modems
cost the same as for "generic" (politically-correct) desktops.
16bit output can be produced by modulating one 8-bit channel with
the other. You have 4 channels but only two speakers. It's not easy
but technically-possible. Most people can tell the difference
between 8-bit and 16-bit audio through their cheesy speakers anyway.
How much does a good sound card for a PC cost? It's about the same
for an Amiga.
I don't know of any new Amiga hardware prices.
>Good flash support ? Can stream real & wm streams?
Of course it can't yet stream real crap. It's a proprietary
protocol and who the hell _needs_ flash anyway?
If you want to see a movie, go any buy yourself a DVD and watch it
on a proper screen.
>> BTW: StirOffice is FREE. For Billware, Linux and Solaris (SPARC and
>> Inhell).
>But do you see grand ma on a56k modem connecting to sun and installing
>the package?!?!?!
Perhaps not. I downloaded 5.1 through a 28.8 modem.
One could ask Sun nicely (and there's an online form for
convenience) to send a CD with the multi-platform distribution
enclosed. There's a very small charge for the service.
OTOH, she could push her walking frame to the corner computer shop
and ask the salesdroid to burn a copy for her for the cost of the CD
and a box of home-made cookies.
Try the same with BillWare and see what happens.
--
/"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia
\ / ASCII ribbon campaign | I'm a .signature virus! |
X against HTML mail | Copy me into your ~/.signature|
/ \ and postings | to help me spread! |
Bernd Felsche
>In article <92n9uo$or3$1...@flywheel.innovative.iinet.net.au>,
>ber...@innovative.iinet.net.au says...
>> You don't *need* an Amiga with those spec's. An "equivalent" Amiga
>> needs about 8MB of RAM, a good graphics accelerator and a 25MHz
>> '040. Throw in some reasonable "office automation" software and
>> you're laughing. It can do the same job.
>Make that 16MB and I'd almost agree with you - except that Amiga office
>software is not as good as it ought to be IMO.
PageStream shines. It is the main reason I use my Amiga. But now
that I've upgraded the machine to an '060 with a total of 146MB of
RAM, I'll have to rename it "fatso". :-)
>Still, you won't get a new Amiga like you described above for under $300.
That's true. Even tough with "real" dinares.
>> BTW: StirOffice is FREE. For Billware, Linux and Solaris (SPARC and
>> Inhell).
>And now that Sun have made it Open Source, and turned most of it
>into OpenOffice 6.0x, maybe someone will port it to the Amiga.
>Then again, I bet it would not run in 16MB RAM, eh?
Pretty much forced to be "bloatware" to compare feature-by-feature
with MicroSnot's Office Decimation Software. StirOffice is
nevertheless much more compact than the whole swag of MicroSnot it
replaces. And it's much cheaper to deploy. :-)
5.2 is btw much better than 5.1. The only compelling reason to use
it is for inter-operability with the product from Bill's Bazaar of
Bugs-n-Bloat.
>Expect to see it on the new AmigaOE though.
Pretty much a no-brainer for an initial port... It's quite
resource-hungry. A major cleanup to "lighten" and modularise
wouldn't go astray. That way, users can run lean and mean if they
don't need to inter-operate through the Gates of Hell.
BTW: Do you think I've thrown in enough M$-bashing for csaa? :-)
Bjørnar Bolsøy
>Karl Thomas<kar...@nox.nyx.net> wrote:
>>
>> "Julian Cassin" <ninjaturtle..REMOVETHIS..@optushome.com.au>
>> wrote in message
>> news:QGn36.20513$Xx3....@news1.eburwd1.vic.optushome.com.au...
>
>> > I reckon they are the cheapest computer you can get!
>> >
>> > Can you get a brand new Wintel machine for under $300?
>> >
>> > Nope...
>> >
>> Max. CD-ROM, 56k ITU V.90 Modem; Microsoft® Windows® Millennium
>> Edition - the home version of the World's favorite software and
>> Sun® StarOfficeT 5.2.
>
>vintage software, you'll see that asterisk no problem) next to the
>price. You know, the one that directs you to read the fine print
>which obligates you to pay through the nose for internet service
>over a ridiculous length of time,
As you know brand new 500-600Mhz PC's can be had for well below
the $300 mark, no hidden deals.
>making it probably the worst buy
>of all the pcs you could have quoted up there--not that all of
>them aren't obsolete on the shelf, they are.
If you ask me paying $300 for 8-10 year old Amiga technology
(if that's what Julian had in mind) doesn't strike me as a
particularly good deal either.
Regards...
Bjørnar Bolsøy
>Stephan Schaem<tt...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>> Is 160meg enought for StarOffice? Never used it...
>
>Under Windows? No way. 128MB machines are bog slow during
>everyday operation.
Hm, what about your PPC then? My 96Mb Windows box seems to be
at least 5 times faster than it at my kind of everyday tasks. :^)
Regards...
Bjørnar Bolsøy
<92n9i9$opb$1...@flywheel.innovative.iinet.net.au>:
>"Stephan Schaem" <tt...@mindspring.com> writes:
>>Is 160meg enought for StarOffice? Never used it...
>
>It's "enough" under Lose98. Can't vouch for LoseME. Until it
>context-switches. Often screws up with a fast modem connection.
>Packet-retries galore - which most users won't see. They just see
>"a slow modem".
Interesting. You have a source describing this?
Regards...
Bjørnar Bolsøy
>"Karl Thomas" <kar...@nox.nyx.net> writes:
>>No I would buy 128MB RAM for $60. So tell me where can I get an
>>Amiga with those specs for under $500?
>
>You don't *need* an Amiga with those spec's. An "equivalent" Amiga
>needs about 8MB of RAM, a good graphics accelerator and a 25MHz
>'040. Throw in some reasonable "office automation" software and
>you're laughing. It can do the same job.
Not everyone use their PCs for simple wordprocessing and
a few emails though -- you need to take a step out of the
95'is era small business office and into the new millennium. :^)
Regards...
John Sheehy
ber...@innovative.iinet.net.au (Bernd Felsche) wrote:
>How much does a good sound card for a PC cost?
$15 cards with yamaha 724 chipset.
Bjørnar Bolsøy
It sort of makes you wonder how 50.000 BP employees have managed
to work at all for the past 5 years with 32Mb p133 Thinkpads
as their major workhorse. :^)
Or how people over in opera.general and opera.tech find it
more than acceptible to use a fully modern up-to-date browser
(including email) on those old 486 boxes. :)
Regards...
Bernd Felsche
>"Bernd Felsche" <ber...@innovative.iinet.net.au> wrote in message news:92n9i9$opb$1...@flywheel.innovative.iinet.net.au...
>> "Stephan Schaem" <tt...@mindspring.com> writes:
>>
>> >"Bernd Felsche" <ber...@innovative.iinet.net.au> wrote in message news:92m51h$mua$1...@flywheel.innovative.iinet.net.au...
>> >> "Karl Thomas" <kar...@nox.nyx.net> writes:
>> >>
>> >> >"Julian Cassin" <ninjaturtle..REMOVETHIS..@optushome.com.au> wrote in
>> >> >message news:QGn36.20513$Xx3....@news1.eburwd1.vic.optushome.com.au...
>> >> >> I reckon they are the cheapest computer you can get!
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Can you get a brand new Wintel machine for under $300?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Nope...
>> >>
>> >> >No but $399 buys you....
>> >>
>> >> >http://www.e4me.com/
>> >>
>> >> >IntelCeleronT 600 MHz (w/128KB L2 Cache) 10 GB HDD, 32MB, 40x Max. CD-ROM,
>> >> >56k ITU V.90 Modem; Microsoft Windows Millennium Edition - the home
>> >> >version of the World's favorite software and Sun StarOfficeT 5.2.
>> >>
>> >> You want to run StarOffice 5.2 under LoseME with only 32MB of RAM?
>> >>
>> >> What else do you do for fun? Have root-canal work done without
>> >> aneasthetic?
>>
>> >Didn't I mention one paragraph below:
>>
>> >Now, to sell the deal I would add 128meg to the system for 37$...
>>
>> >Is 160meg enought for StarOffice? Never used it...
>>
>> It's "enough" under Lose98. Can't vouch for LoseME. Until it
>> context-switches. Often screws up with a fast modem connection.
>I never, ever had that happen. But on my amiga even a 56K connection
>on the serial port was considered a Feat of wonder.
My serial ports don't have any problem at 115200. I only use the one
on the motherboard for "slow" fax connections.
>> Packet-retries galore - which most users won't see. They just see
>> "a slow modem".
>Again, never seen this. My xfer speed alway where above rated
>connection bps.
Hardware-dependent. Shared interrupts I guess.
>> Yep, you can do some things with StirOffice in "just" 128MB of RAM
>> and hundreds of MHz as well as enough waste heat to keep your coffee
>> warm. And you can read a book by the constant flicker of the disk
>> activity LED. :-)
>Microsoft Office seem much better memory wise then...
It's not really. StirOffice looks bad because it "steals" so much
memory when it launches. That give the memory manglement system a
headache if you're also tempted to run a browser outside of
StirOffice (it has a usable browser, but it's not entirely
"compatable" with Netscrape and Internet Exploiter).
Bernd Felsche
>"Bill Hoggett" <bill_h...@lineone.net> wrote in message news:MPG.14b947bfc...@news.lineone.net...
>> In article <evCVWwucAHA.274@cpmsnbbsa09>, kar...@nox.nyx.net says...
>> >
>> > No I would buy 128MB RAM for $60. So tell me where can I get
>> > an Amiga with those specs for under $500?
>>
>> You can't, even at used prices - and that's the whole point that
>> started this thread.
>>
>> IMO, price/performance, Amiga hardware just doesn't deliver. The
>> OS had much promise, but it was allowed to rot for far too long.
>> Whether the new one (that means OE, not 3.9) is going to be any
>> good remains to be seen.
>OE is not evolutif (or am I wrong)... OE seem like a brand new
>thing with the name amiga slaped on it.
>To me their is alot more then a kernel (having it taking 16K
>doens't make it better) to have a good OS. OFFICIAL API of quality
>is a must. And like you know, I'm very impressed with Directx8 in
>that requard.
>> I for one still live in hope.
>I seen BeOS, I seen QNX , no so many linux install tho. But after
>evaluation I see no hope of anyone catching up with MS.
SuSE Linux is pretty much a no-brainer compared to MicroSnot. One of
the reasons I chose it I guess. :-)
But then, after quarter of a century in computing is should all be
straight-forward.
Bernd Felsche
>"Stephan Schaem" <tt...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
>news:t4v5seq...@corp.supernews.com...
>> "Bernd Felsche" <ber...@innovative.iinet.net.au> wrote in message
>news:92n9uo$or3$1...@flywheel.innovative.iinet.net.au...
[snip]
>> > BTW: StirOffice is FREE. For Billware, Linux and Solaris (SPARC
>> > and Inhell).
>> But do you see grand ma on a56k modem connecting to sun and
>> installing the package?!?!?!
>You just go to their website and fill in a form - they'll ship a CD
>to you... at least they did with Star Office 5.2. I used it for
>about a day before uninstalling it and consigning the CD to the
>small round filing cabinet on the floor...
What a waste. It makes for an adequate coaster.
Obviously, you didn't have to pay for the "other" software to
interoperate with lusers.
Bernd Felsche
>On 31 Dec 2000 20:48:24 +0800, ber...@innovative.iinet.net.au (Bernd
>Felsche) wrote:
>>>No I would buy 128MB RAM for $60. So tell me where can I get an
>>>Amiga with those specs for under $500?
>>You don't *need* an Amiga with those spec's. An "equivalent" Amiga
>>needs about 8MB of RAM, a good graphics accelerator and a 25MHz
>>'040. Throw in some reasonable "office automation" software and
>>you're laughing. It can do the same job.
>That's nice. Unfortunately, with a warranty, already setup with all
>that software and a modem and all the things that people would need,
>it's far more than $399. Labor and setup time has huge value, too.
Of course it's more expensive.
The economies of scale that apply to commodity hardware simply don't
exist to pull the Amiga hardware costs down as far. Although the
componentry is largely shared (like the genetic structure between
chimps and humans) the people who make Amiga hardware buy smaller
quantities of components because they sell to a fringe market.
Bernd Felsche
>On Sun, 31 Dec 2000 16:40:05 -0000, Bill Hoggett
><bill_h...@lineone.net> wrote:
>>Microsoft Windows Millennium Edition - Fair enough, this is up to date,
>>though not if expected to perform under 32 MB. It would have also been
>>nice if they offered the bundle MINUS the WinME OS, with the respective
>>price adjustment.
>Why? What normal consumer buys a PC without an OS?
Somebody normal enough to want to have the choice of operating
system. Especially if it can be a free one.
>>Sun StarOffice 5.2 - free software, and not well suited for a 32 MB
>>machine.
>It's decent for the price.
>>No mention of sound or graphics cards, so I assume these will be cheap
>>and nasty on-board solutions.
>i810 chipset, so i752 graphics. Not bad for an on-board solution - a
>big step up from the Rage Pros that were common for so long. The
>on-board sound can come from any of a bunch of vendors; mostly it's
>fine for 2d audio.
>>Not a very palatable system, even for under $400.
>The RAM is the only issue, and HP's 64M/20G/633 Cel. is a better deal.
If somebody asks me to spec a M$-machine for them (some people
insist on life in misery), I always spec at least 128MB of RAM, and
generally Lose98...
Bernd Felsche
>"Bernd Felsche" <ber...@innovative.iinet.net.au> wrote in message
>news:92n9uo$or3$1...@flywheel.innovative.iinet.net.au...
>> "Karl Thomas" <kar...@nox.nyx.net> writes:
>> >No I would buy 128MB RAM for $60. So tell me where can I get an Amiga
>with
>> >those specs for under $500?
>>
>> You don't *need* an Amiga with those spec's. An "equivalent" Amiga
>> needs about 8MB of RAM, a good graphics accelerator and a 25MHz
>> '040. Throw in some reasonable "office automation" software and
>> you're laughing. It can do the same job.
>An '040-25 can:
>1. Compress/decompress DIVX video.
>2. Edit sounds (adjust tempo, mix, etc.)
>3. Run Java applets
>4. Run the latest emulators -- MAME, etc.
Why? I don't want to do any of those things on my Amiga.
Before last week's upgrade to '060 I used PageStream to do
*extensive* DTP; and the people doing the printing (or the outside
advertising companies) couldn't comprehend how much can be done with
"so little" when they were playing around with hundreds of
megabytes, hundreds of megahertz and megapain.
>as fast as a 600Mhz Celeron? Let's not even mention games or
>programs like Photoshop, Quark, etc.
Don't need them. You didn't say you wanted to "run programs" instead
of doing something useful with the computer as a tool.
>BTW, you never did mention how much that "equivalent" Amiga would cost.
How on earth can that be relevant when the hardware isn't generally
available, nor shipping in volumes anywhere near 1% that of
commodity machines?
One pays as much as one thinks the machine is worth.
kar...@my-deja.com
ber...@innovative.iinet.net.au (Bernd Felsche) wrote:
> "Karl Thomas" <kar...@nox.nyx.net> writes:
>
> >"Bernd Felsche" <ber...@innovative.iinet.net.au> wrote in message
> >news:92n9uo$or3$1...@flywheel.innovative.iinet.net.au...
> >> "Karl Thomas" <kar...@nox.nyx.net> writes:
>
> >> >No I would buy 128MB RAM for $60. So tell me where can I get an
Amiga
> >with
> >> >those specs for under $500?
> >>
> >> You don't *need* an Amiga with those spec's. An "equivalent" Amiga
> >> needs about 8MB of RAM, a good graphics accelerator and a 25MHz
> >> '040. Throw in some reasonable "office automation" software and
> >> you're laughing. It can do the same job.
>
> >An '040-25 can:
>
> >1. Compress/decompress DIVX video.
> >2. Edit sounds (adjust tempo, mix, etc.)
> >3. Run Java applets
> >4. Run the latest emulators -- MAME, etc.
>
> Why? I don't want to do any of those things on my Amiga.
> Before last week's upgrade to '060 I used PageStream to do
> *extensive* DTP; and the people doing the printing (or the outside
> advertising companies) couldn't comprehend how much can be done with
> "so little" when they were playing around with hundreds of
> megabytes, hundreds of megahertz and megapain.
And I guess that '060 would be as fast even my lowly Celeron 400Mhz
EMachines? Want to do some comparisons? How are the color
calibration tools for the Amiga? What about modern multimdia tools?
>
> >as fast as a 600Mhz Celeron? Let's not even mention games or
> >programs like Photoshop, Quark, etc.
>
> Don't need them. You didn't say you wanted to "run programs" instead
> of doing something useful with the computer as a tool.
I guess Photoshop and Quark XPress aren't useful tools?
Should we start debating on development environments and how the Amiga
development environments would compare with C+ Builder, JBuilder, and
Visual Basic for getting real things done?
>
> >BTW, you never did mention how much that "equivalent" Amiga would
cost.
>
> How on earth can that be relevant when the hardware isn't generally
> available, nor shipping in volumes anywhere near 1% that of
> commodity machines?
>
I didn't see a price in the above quote....
> One pays as much as one thinks the machine is worth.
> --
> /"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia
> \ / ASCII ribbon campaign | I'm a .signature virus! |
> X against HTML mail | Copy me into your ~/.signature|
> / \ and postings | to help me spread! |
>
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
Bernd Felsche
Source? No. Experience; yes. Took a while to figure with a protocol
analyser in there.
While you're busy "surfing" the web and hitting the local cache of
web pages on disk heavily, some shared interrupts (I guess) get
"lost" resulting in parts of packets being dropped. The interrupts
are shared between serial and disk.
The hardware exhibits the same behaviour under Linux BTW if you're
crazy enough to try to use X and Netscrape in 32MB of RAM. Too much
paging and dodgy interrupt handling. At least with Linux you don't
need to cobble together a protocol analyser. All the evidence stares
you in the face.
You need much more RAM to cover up the problem. Or perhaps a simple
fast serial IO card.
Bernd Felsche
Oh, you mean playing games, etc?
If you're smart, you can "do" Intranet with minimal overheads on
small machines as well; put the computing power at the server, not
in the desktop.
kar...@my-deja.com
ber...@innovative.iinet.net.au (Bernd Felsche) wrote:
> 16bit output can be produced by modulating one 8-bit channel with
> the other. You have 4 channels but only two speakers. It's not easy
> but technically-possible. Most people can tell the difference
> between 8-bit and 16-bit audio through their cheesy speakers anyway.
>
It's not real 16-bit output and I don't have cheesy speakers....
> How much does a good sound card for a PC cost? It's about the same
> for an Amiga.
Prices please? And how much of that software will actually work with
it?
>
> I don't know of any new Amiga hardware prices.
>
> >Good flash support ? Can stream real & wm streams?
>
> Of course it can't yet stream real crap. It's a proprietary
> protocol and who the hell _needs_ flash anyway?
>
> If you want to see a movie, go any buy yourself a DVD and watch it
> on a proper screen.
Last time I checked the average computer monitor had much higher
resolution than a TV. Trying to read production notes from a DVD on a
TV is almost impossible.
RealVideo is a great tool actually. For instance I heard plenty of
people talking about how great the speech that Clinton gave during the
Dem's convention. Instead of waiting and hoping that I could catch it
on CSPAN, I simply went to CSPANs website and viewed it. RealVideo is
quite watchable at 384kbps.
> OTOH, she could push her walking frame to the corner computer shop
> and ask the salesdroid to burn a copy for her for the cost of the CD
> and a box of home-made cookies.
>
> Try the same with BillWare and see what happens.
>
The same thing that happens if you ask for commercial Amiga software.
Well actually its a lot worse, with Amiga developers asking for you to
pay for the software before they will even complete it (i.e. Jim Drew P-
Mac emulation software).
SG
> "Stephan Schaem" <tt...@mindspring.com> wrote in
> <t52cbbj...@corp.supernews.com>:
> >"SG" <sg...@erols.com> wrote in message
> >news:3A50C204.MD...@erols.com...
> >> Stephan Schaem<tt...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> > If this system is only use for email, and basic task, 32meg
> >> > will be acceptable. Thats not the only system they sell.
> >>
> >> Dell recommends an _/absolute/ *minimum*_ of 700MHz and 128MB of
> >> RAM for basic email.
> >>
> >> http://dellapp.us.dell.com/pp1/dhs/assistance_desktop.asp
> >
> >You are so naive and stupid... I dont even think you grasp what
> >you post.
>
> It sort of makes you wonder how 50.000 BP employees have managed
> to work at all for the past 5 years with 32Mb p133 Thinkpads
> as their major workhorse. :^)
No doubt most people put up with Windows' borderline ridiculous lack
of performance, what choice do they have?
> Or how people over in opera.general and opera.tech find it
> more than acceptible to use a fully modern up-to-date browser
> (including email) on those old 486 boxes. :)
>
>
> Regards...
--
Steve.
SG
More appropriately, you need to take a step into csaa. Amigas are
specialty machines, what pc users like (for example, pain) is
completely irrelevant here.
--
Steve.
SG
Can you name one?
--
Steve.
Stephan Schaem
"Bernd Felsche" <ber...@innovative.iinet.net.au> wrote in message news:92rfbj$8o5$1...@flywheel.innovative.iinet.net.au...
> "Stephan Schaem" <tt...@mindspring.com> writes:
> >How much for a good graphics accelerator? how much for a new 25mhz A4000?
> >How much for 8meg memory for the A4000? Modem? 16bit audio IO?
>
> 8meg for the A4000 is "free". Pick it up for a few $s. "Nobody"
> wants 4MB SIMMS. Modems cost a few $s at most... external modems
> cost the same as for "generic" (politically-correct) desktops.
>
Ok. so how much for a new 8meg A4000? (BTW, even my a3000 had 18meg).
> 16bit output can be produced by modulating one 8-bit channel with
> the other. You have 4 channels but only two speakers. It's not easy
> but technically-possible. Most people can tell the difference
> between 8-bit and 16-bit audio through their cheesy speakers anyway.
Its CPU driven, its not close to 16bit. Its pseudo 14bit. There is not input,
not even an 8bit ADC...
Is there even a decent audio API for the amiga? device abstraction?
amiga audio is very poor. How much for an AHI capable audio card for the
amiga?
>
> How much does a good sound card for a PC cost? It's about the same
> for an Amiga.
<50$ , DSP based. I wont go into the feature list of the HW and DirectSound/Music
API support.
I have no idea how you can even think those 2 are even on the same level.
>
> I don't know of any new Amiga hardware prices.
Thats hard to prove your point then.
>
> >Good flash support ? Can stream real & wm streams?
>
> Of course it can't yet stream real crap. It's a proprietary
> protocol and who the hell _needs_ flash anyway?
BTW... I dont need a computer... I could be a happy carpenter. Does
this make your point that the amiga is better? nope.
"If the amiga dont have it. You dont need it" ... Great mentality
>
> If you want to see a movie, go any buy yourself a DVD and watch it
> on a proper screen.
I can watch a preview before renting for example... www.netflix.com
On a cable mode or DSL is actually worth it.
My PC also handle playback of progressive DVD very well, better then
my TV interlaced display...
In short.. I check some DVD, watch the preview.. and when there arive at
my door my daughter watch her movies on her computer.
>
> >> BTW: StirOffice is FREE. For Billware, Linux and Solaris (SPARC and
> >> Inhell).
>
> >But do you see grand ma on a56k modem connecting to sun and installing
> >the package?!?!?!
>
> Perhaps not. I downloaded 5.1 through a 28.8 modem.
>
> One could ask Sun nicely (and there's an online form for
> convenience) to send a CD with the multi-platform distribution
> enclosed. There's a very small charge for the service.
>
> OTOH, she could push her walking frame to the corner computer shop
> and ask the salesdroid to burn a copy for her for the cost of the CD
> and a box of home-made cookies.
>
> Try the same with BillWare and see what happens.
Doesn't sound like free if I have to pass an afternoon grocery shoping &
making/baking cookies to 'beg' for a bloated 'word processor' :)
Stephan
SG
> Bill Hoggett <bill_h...@lineone.net> writes:
>
> >In article <92n9uo$or3$1...@flywheel.innovative.iinet.net.au>,
> >ber...@innovative.iinet.net.au says...
> >> You don't *need* an Amiga with those spec's. An "equivalent" Amiga
> >> needs about 8MB of RAM, a good graphics accelerator and a 25MHz
> >> '040. Throw in some reasonable "office automation" software and
> >> you're laughing. It can do the same job.
>
> >Make that 16MB and I'd almost agree with you - except that Amiga office
> >software is not as good as it ought to be IMO.
>
> PageStream shines. It is the main reason I use my Amiga. But now
> that I've upgraded the machine to an '060 with a total of 146MB of
> RAM, I'll have to rename it "fatso". :-)
I'll have to pick up PageStream sometime. Though FW97 is such a
wonderful publisher as well as word processor, I really can't imagine
why I would need it for my DTP needs.
> >Still, you won't get a new Amiga like you described above for under $300.
>
> That's true. Even tough with "real" dinares.
>
> >> BTW: StirOffice is FREE. For Billware, Linux and Solaris (SPARC and
> >> Inhell).
>
> >And now that Sun have made it Open Source, and turned most of it
> >into OpenOffice 6.0x, maybe someone will port it to the Amiga.
> >Then again, I bet it would not run in 16MB RAM, eh?
>
> Pretty much forced to be "bloatware" to compare feature-by-feature
> with MicroSnot's Office Decimation Software. StirOffice is
> nevertheless much more compact than the whole swag of MicroSnot it
> replaces. And it's much cheaper to deploy. :-)
OTOH, I'd buy dedicated DTP in a heartbeat if I was forced to use
bug-ridden, DTP-challenged MSWord via my pc.
> 5.2 is btw much better than 5.1. The only compelling reason to use
> it is for inter-operability with the product from Bill's Bazaar of
> Bugs-n-Bloat.
>
> >Expect to see it on the new AmigaOE though.
>
> Pretty much a no-brainer for an initial port... It's quite
> resource-hungry. A major cleanup to "lighten" and modularise
> wouldn't go astray. That way, users can run lean and mean if they
> don't need to inter-operate through the Gates of Hell.
>
> BTW: Do you think I've thrown in enough M$-bashing for csaa? :-)
No. I added a little for you.
--
Steve.
SG
SG
>
>
> SG wrote:
> >
> > Tom and Lisa Peters<gionp...@home.com> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > SG wrote:
> > > >
>
> > > > Am I still using that CSPPC?
> > > >
> > > > Why, yes I am.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Hahahahaha.. thats because you have no choice in the matter.
> > > You have nowhere to go. You have the best Amiga hardware available now,
> > > and perhapts forever.
> > >
> > > > Am I still overjoyed with my daily dose of utterly instant
> > > > gratification, that just blows away (not even close) any and all of
> > >
> > > You overwrought hyperbole blows us away.
> >
> > Too bad you haven't actually experience such wonders. :^)
> >
>
> Steve, we (i.e. the rest of csaa) experience your overwrought hyperbole
> every time you post. Hardly a rare occurance.
Oh, I was hoping you were going to say you once used an Amiga... oh
well.
> > > > the relentlessly upgraded and replaced Windows machines that I'm
> > > > forced to use everyday (and my own dog 266MHz)?
> > > >
> > > > Why yes I am.
> > > >
> > > > Actions speak louder than words--you have yet to be satified with
> > > > your latest pc purchase, you just keep throwing good money after bad.
> > >
> > > If actions speak louder than words, why are most people _not_ buying
> > > Amiga (which is the action of buying) ?
> >
> > Most people don't by Lambos either.
>
> Maybe most people dont _want_ Lambos.
But the reasonable ones acknowledge that a hopped up Mustang will
never be in the same league.
Market share is obviously not an indicator of quality/performance. As
you rightly point out, too few care.
--
Steve.
SG
>
> "SG" <sg...@erols.com> wrote in message
> news:3A50C25D.MD...@erols.com...
> > Karl Thomas<kar...@nox.nyx.net> wrote:
> >
> > > > Then why does my *32MB* 266MHz Win98 machine take over 10x as long as
> > > > my 16MB CSPPC to do the jpeg test I just posted, and that you refuse
> > > > to post numbers for using your Mac and pc with 16MB available.
> > > > --
> > > >
> > >
> > > Because *you* either have a bad setup or are lying. *My* 200Mhz Gateway
> > > laptop is consistently 2 to 3x as fast on every test that you have
> posted.
> >
> > Then post actual verifyable numbers.
>
> I have posted my numbers on *every* single "test" that you have posted and
> mine have always been faster.
Then post some for your claim above that your P200/16MB is 2-3x faster
than my CSPPC-66/280 doing that jpeg load test.
--
Steve.
SG
>
> "SG" <sg...@erols.com> wrote in message
> news:3A50C204.MD...@erols.com...
> > Stephan Schaem<tt...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> >
> > > If this system is only use for email, and basic task, 32meg will be
> acceptable.
> > > Thats not the only system they sell.
> >
> > Dell recommends an _/absolute/ *minimum*_ of 700MHz and 128MB of RAM
> > for basic email.
> >
> > http://dellapp.us.dell.com/pp1/dhs/assistance_desktop.asp
> > --
> >
> > Steve.
>
> Haven't we been through this before? a 700Mhz Celeron is selling for
> $50/ea. in bulk. If they could get 400Mhz Celerons for free it would only
> save $50 in total system price.
Dell's point is, 700MHz/128MB the absolute minimum one should put up
with, in the 21st century, for stuff like "basic email."
--
Steve.
SG
>
> "SG" <sg...@erols.com> wrote in message
> news:3A50B9C0.MD...@erols.com...
> > <d...@foo.bar> wrote:
> >
> > > On 31 Dec 2000 10:18:25 +0800, ber...@innovative.iinet.net.au (Bernd
> > > Felsche) wrote:
> > >
> > > >>No but $399 buys you....
> > > >
> > > >>http://www.e4me.com/
> > > >
> > > >>IntelCeleronT 600 MHz (w/128KB L2 Cache) 10 GB HDD, 32MB, 40x Max.
> CD-ROM,
> > > >>56k ITU V.90 Modem; Microsoft Windows Millennium Edition - the home
> > > >>version of the World's favorite software and Sun StarOfficeT 5.2.
> > > >
> > > >You want to run StarOffice 5.2 under LoseME with only 32MB of RAM?
> > > >
> > > >What else do you do for fun? Have root-canal work done without
> > > >aneasthetic?
> > >
> > > Or, if you're like most people with AOL or C-Serve as an ISP, you can
> > > get a FREE computer (with a 3 year service agreement) -
> >
> > "Free" for just $900.
> >
>
> So where do you get 21.95*36 = 900?
>
> $10.88/mo. { (790.82-400)/36 } is not a bad price for unlimited internet
> access.
Which is why its such a bad idea to enter a pricey, long term,
untested, service contract in exchange for a machine discount. You
may very well end up duplicating the expense for quality service
anyway.
--
Steve.
SG
> In article <92rfbj$8o5$1...@flywheel.innovative.iinet.net.au>,
> ber...@innovative.iinet.net.au (Bernd Felsche) wrote:
> > 16bit output can be produced by modulating one 8-bit channel with
> > the other. You have 4 channels but only two speakers. It's not easy
> > but technically-possible. Most people can tell the difference
> > between 8-bit and 16-bit audio through their cheesy speakers anyway.
> >
>
> It's not real 16-bit output and I don't have cheesy speakers....
"Cheesy" in my house is something less than my (yes, 12 year old)
130W/Ch @ .002% THD system, and no, I'm not moving my Amiga onto the
coffee table in front of my home theater.
> > How much does a good sound card for a PC cost? It's about the same
> > for an Amiga.
>
> Prices please? And how much of that software will actually work with
> it?
These days the above spec will run you around 5 grand for the amp
alone, if you can find it at all in consumer gear.
> > If you want to see a movie, go any buy yourself a DVD and watch it
> > on a proper screen.
>
> Last time I checked the average computer monitor had much higher
> resolution than a TV. Trying to read production notes from a DVD on a
> TV is almost impossible.
...and no, I'm not moving my Amiga onto the coffee table in front of
my home theater.
> RealVideo is a great tool actually.
It an all but useless joke currently, I think I've used it once
or twice, which was too much. Someday a quality implementation will
certain find its way to relevance.
> For instance I heard plenty of
> people talking about how great the speech that Clinton gave during the
> Dem's convention. Instead of waiting and hoping that I could catch it
> on CSPAN, I simply went to CSPANs website and viewed it. RealVideo is
> quite watchable at 384kbps.
A good example of a useless joke. Jokes aside, there are much better
ways to catch a speech in the 21st century.
> > OTOH, she could push her walking frame to the corner computer shop
> > and ask the salesdroid to burn a copy for her for the cost of the CD
> > and a box of home-made cookies.
> >
> > Try the same with BillWare and see what happens.
> >
>
> The same thing that happens if you ask for commercial Amiga software.
> Well actually its a lot worse, with Amiga developers asking for you to
> pay for the software before they will even complete it (i.e. Jim Drew P-
> Mac emulation software).
I disagee, I've never had commercial software thrown in free when
ordering pc stuff, and thats never not happened to me ordering Amiga
software from Software Hut. The Amiga community is a big family, its
an intangible, but Bernd is right, its hugely beneficial.
--
Steve.
SG
> And I guess that '060 would be as fast even my lowly Celeron 400Mhz
> EMachines?
<snip>
> I guess Photoshop and Quark XPress aren't useful tools?
You mean for your "bargain" platform above?
$1,367.98
--
Steve.
SG
> "Bernd Felsche" <ber...@innovative.iinet.net.au> wrote in message news:92rfbj$8o5$1...@flywheel.innovative.iinet.net.au...
> > "Stephan Schaem" <tt...@mindspring.com> writes:
>
> > >How much for a good graphics accelerator? how much for a new 25mhz A4000?
> > >How much for 8meg memory for the A4000? Modem? 16bit audio IO?
> >
> > 8meg for the A4000 is "free". Pick it up for a few $s. "Nobody"
> > wants 4MB SIMMS. Modems cost a few $s at most... external modems
> > cost the same as for "generic" (politically-correct) desktops.
> >
>
> Ok. so how much for a new 8meg A4000? (BTW, even my a3000 had 18meg).
About $600 for the mb & RAM, but you'll have towerize it yourself, add
$25-100. If you're strapped for cash, consider the somewhat less
elegant $165 A1200.
> > 16bit output can be produced by modulating one 8-bit channel with
> > the other. You have 4 channels but only two speakers. It's not easy
> > but technically-possible. Most people can tell the difference
> > between 8-bit and 16-bit audio through their cheesy speakers anyway.
>
> Its CPU driven, its not close to 16bit. Its pseudo 14bit. There is not input,
> not even an 8bit ADC...
Its 14bit; standard and free.
> Is there even a decent audio API for the amiga? device abstraction?
http://www.lysator.liu.se/~lcs/ahi.html
> amiga audio is very poor.
http://www.audiolabs.it/products.html
--
Steve.
dd...@my-deja.com
> Try the same with BillWare and see what happens.
Try rolling SO to a few thousand users and see how much fun THAT is
without the nifty "central administration tools" that are (freely)
available for most MS applications.
Bernd Felsche
>"Bernd Felsche" <ber...@innovative.iinet.net.au> wrote in message
>news:92rfbj$8o5$1...@flywheel.innovative.iinet.net.au...
>> "Stephan Schaem" <tt...@mindspring.com> writes:
>> >How much for a good graphics accelerator? how much for a new 25mhz A4000?
>> >How much for 8meg memory for the A4000? Modem? 16bit audio IO?
>>
>> 8meg for the A4000 is "free". Pick it up for a few $s. "Nobody"
>> wants 4MB SIMMS. Modems cost a few $s at most... external modems
>> cost the same as for "generic" (politically-correct) desktops.
>Ok. so how much for a new 8meg A4000? (BTW, even my a3000 had 18meg).
>> 16bit output can be produced by modulating one 8-bit channel with
>> the other. You have 4 channels but only two speakers. It's not easy
>> but technically-possible. Most people can tell the difference
>> between 8-bit and 16-bit audio through their cheesy speakers anyway.
>Its CPU driven, its not close to 16bit. Its pseudo 14bit. There is not input,
>not even an 8bit ADC...
Not entirely CPU-driven. The channels are mixed by hardware.
As for no ADC... I'm ashamed to say I've never missed it. Sorry.
Maybe I'd rather the computer not be able to hear some of the things
I say. I did one put together a paralised port ADC - cost about
US$10.. didn't find much use for it.
>Is there even a decent audio API for the amiga? device abstraction?
>amiga audio is very poor. How much for an AHI capable audio card for the
>amiga?
You'll have to talk to an expert about that. I have little
experience beyond reading about it.
>> How much does a good sound card for a PC cost? It's about the same
>> for an Amiga.
><50$ , DSP based. I wont go into the feature list of the HW and
>DirectSound/Music API support. I have no idea how you can even
>think those 2 are even on the same level.
Features? How about Quality? For US$50 you should be able to slap
together something reasonable for the consumer market. Fair to good
sound cards cost AUD$300 around here.
>> I don't know of any new Amiga hardware prices.
>Thats hard to prove your point then.
What point? I never claimed that the Amiga would be cheaper.
There's no way it can be given its miniscule market share.
And just because it's "slower" on paper and in "benchmarks", doesn't
necessarily means it's less useful for what somebody wants to do
with it.
>> >Good flash support ? Can stream real & wm streams?
>>
>> Of course it can't yet stream real crap. It's a proprietary
>> protocol and who the hell _needs_ flash anyway?
>BTW... I dont need a computer... I could be a happy carpenter. Does
>this make your point that the amiga is better? nope.
>"If the amiga dont have it. You dont need it" ... Great mentality
I don't need it on my Amiga. I'm surrounded by eight computers here,
only half of them are Amiga.
I use an Amiga for its strengths, not its weaknesses.
>> If you want to see a movie, go any buy yourself a DVD and watch it
>> on a proper screen.
>I can watch a preview before renting for example... www.netflix.com
>On a cable mode or DSL is actually worth it.
I'm waiting with 'bated breath until I can get that bandwidth here
around 2008.
>My PC also handle playback of progressive DVD very well, better then
>my TV interlaced display...
Crap TV. Why do you think I spent AUD$2000 on a TV? Maybe because I
thought the $600 TV would be crap to watch.
>In short.. I check some DVD, watch the preview.. and when there
>arive at my door my daughter watch her movies on her computer.
>> >> BTW: StirOffice is FREE. For Billware, Linux and Solaris (SPARC and
>> >> Inhell).
>>
>> >But do you see grand ma on a56k modem connecting to sun and installing
>> >the package?!?!?!
>>
>> Perhaps not. I downloaded 5.1 through a 28.8 modem.
>>
>> One could ask Sun nicely (and there's an online form for
>> convenience) to send a CD with the multi-platform distribution
>> enclosed. There's a very small charge for the service.
>>
>> OTOH, she could push her walking frame to the corner computer shop
>> and ask the salesdroid to burn a copy for her for the cost of the CD
>> and a box of home-made cookies.
>>
>> Try the same with BillWare and see what happens.
>Doesn't sound like free if I have to pass an afternoon grocery
>shoping & making/baking cookies to 'beg' for a bloated 'word
>processor' :)
StirOffice replaces just about all BillWare.
Might be an option your ganny might take up with zeal. You'd be able
to download the thing in about half an hour and burn it to CD.
BTW: It takes about 10 minutes to buy the ingredients and an hour to
make the cookies. Probably cost more than buying a packet at the
store, but not nearly as recreational.