C= Insiders Reveal The Truth
Bruce M. Franklin
on 08-22-1993. Two insiders answer questions about what is really
happening at West Chester. Read it!
______________________________________________________________
| |
| B r u c e M. F r a n k l i n |
| bru...@access.digex.com |
|______________________________________________________________|
The *StarShip* Insider's Conference, 22 August 1993
with DeepModem and DeepThought
Copyright 1993 by the *StarShip* on GEnie
[This is the complete, unedited transcript of a conference held on the
*StarShip* on GEnie. Permission is granted for non-commercial redistribution
as long as it remains intact, unedited and proper credits are attributed.]
.............................................................................
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Now for something completely different. DeepModem and DeepThought are here
with us tonight, both Commodore Insiders who are here to tell you JUST how
it is at Commodore. They will remain behind the backlit screen and their
voices have been digitally altered to protect their identities. You will
find their opinions interesting and their insight from the inside most
revealing. It is about time to sort the rumors from the truth - and
they'll be taking your questions to do just that.
<DEB> There, we're going to do this with a little bit of order. First of all,
*I* get to say something.
<DEB> I'd like to thank our guests, DeepModem and DeepThought for being here
tonight to talk to you and to [maybe] answer your questions. You will note
that they are behind screens and their voices sound a little funny.
<DEB> Enjoy the silouettes, it is all you are going to see. And the first
person I catch asking them who they are will find themselves looking down the
business end of ...
<DEB> well, I don't want to even say it. [grin]
<DEB> Use the command /RAISE to get my attention and queue up the questions.
<DEEPTHOUGHT> Hmmm. what to say?
<DEEPMODEM> I'll sit back and let you folks run the show.
<DEEPMODEM> Just shine a spotlight on me when I'm supposed to answer something.
<DEEPTHOUGHT> I suspect there are a few questions to be asked (g)
<[Courtney] G.HALL26> I am still putting along on my 68000 A2000, with 7 Megs
RAM, and I am planning to upgrade in the future. I hear that along with a
68060, there is a machine planned with a departure from the 680x0 series, and
was wondering if these
<[Courtney] G.HALL26> machines will become available in the near forseeable
future and will be an alternative to me purchasing the 4000. Also, is a sound
upgrade in the works? This is very important to me.
<DEEPTHOUGHT> Hmmm ...
<[Courtney] G.HALL26> (Take your time.. you took a few million years to come
up with 42, did you not?)
<DEEPTHOUGHT> Given current circumstances, I suspect that the 060 option will
probably not happen ...
<DEEPTHOUGHT> the market is moving to fast towards RISC
<DEEPTHOUGHT> RISC is the future of all the PCs on the market
<DEEPTHOUGHT> the 060 just doesn't offer enough power to compete
<DEEPTHOUGHT> when? hard to say. Not for a while yet
<DEEPTHOUGHT> sound? Probably the DSP but, again, not for a bit
<DEEPTHOUGHT> too few enginners to cover too mant projects
<DEEPTHOUGHT> too many
<DEEPTHOUGHT> next ?
<[DeepChrispy] CHRIS.P> I recently purchased an Amiga 4000, as have many
others...
<[DeepChrispy] CHRIS.P> how committed will Commodore be to supporting me with
future upgrades?
<[DeepChrispy] CHRIS.P> GA
<DEB> [OK, I've got at least a dozen people in the question queue right now,
and when it is your turn, you'll see a message on your screen that you can
'talk'. If you want to speed that up, you can prepare your question ahead of
time ...
<[DeepChrispy] CHRIS.P> (I don't want another "A3000" situation)
<DEB> in your terminal chat line or in a file to upload when it is your turn.
Jes don't press return til I call you on.]
<DEEPTHOUGHT> well, the fact is that CBM has rarely been interested in
"support". Cash flow is the main purpose of the company.
<DEEPTHOUGHT> the question is when/if the powers that be will learn the
lessons they need to learn in order to compete in the "real world"
<DEEPTHOUGHT> for now, the 4000 is doing well. I wouldn't worry about it too
much.
<DEEPTHOUGHT> next ?
<[DeepHurting] M.WHALEN5> Ok.. just where the heck is Commodore going with
these machines anyway. I personally don't own an Amiga, but I have and dropped
it for the very reason that it didn't seem to be...
<[DeepHurting] M.WHALEN5> going anywhere. What is anyone doing to aggresively
fit these wonderful machines into the mainstream market?
<[DeepHurting] M.WHALEN5> GA
<DEEPMODEM> What is Commodore doing? Trying to make a profit.
<DEEPMODEM> It's too easy for users to forget that, and get
<DEEPMODEM> drawn in by the novelty of a /<00l machine.
<[Too Deep] TV> I own an A3000
<[DeepHurting] M.WHALEN5> So what? You don't promote it? YOu let it sit while
Mac and IBM crush you?
<[Too Deep] TV> And A2000 with a toaster.
<[DeepHurting] M.WHALEN5> That's profit?
<DEEPMODEM> Whoa. I may work for Commodore, but Irving Gould I'm
<DEEPTHOUGHT> please don't take out your frustrations on us. We understand
<[Too Deep] TV> I am ineterested in see some kind of networking software
support buit into the os.
<DEEPMODEM> not. Complaing to me gives you nothing.
<[DeepHurting] M.WHALEN5> Someone from Commodore listens after long years.. I
vent. Sorry.
<DEEPTHOUGHT> one at a time, too, please
<DEB> [That was my fault, I put Vic in the spotlight too soon.]
<DEEPMODEM> next
<DEB> NOW it's Vic's turn. :)
<[Too Deep] TV> Ok....
<[Too Deep] TV> I have an 2 amigas.
<[Too Deep] TV> I would like to see networking built into the OS.
<DEEPMODEM> <okay -- see your question still on screen>
<DEEPMODEM> I've heard this before ...
<[Too Deep] TV> Is C- working on it at this time?
<DEEPMODEM> but the reality of numbers speaks for itself -- most amigas are
sold as
<DEEPMODEM> low-end games machines. networking is only important to mid an d
higher-end systems. it isn't a priority.
<DEEPMODEM> Thoughts, dt?
<DEEPTHOUGHT> yeah ...
<DEB> [Next 5 in line, in this order: A.ROSARIO4, CHANTECLER, D.VANTREASE,
J.CAVE1, DENNYA]
<DEEPTHOUGHT> the average user doesn't need this. We all think a lot of
things would be nice but they make little or no financial sense ...
<DEEPTHOUGHT> I was reading through some of the message base here recently and
someone ...
<DEEPTHOUGHT> suggested that CBM is not a cocmputer company. This is pretty
accurate.
<[Too Deep] TV> Hence C-
<DEEPTHOUGHT> it's a make money company. CBM counts screws in each machine.
Get the drift?
<[Too Deep] TV> I'm done
<DEEPTHOUGHT> next ?
<[Tony] A.ROSARIO4> With sooooo many companys dropping Amiga support, and new
software slow in comming, what are the chances of the Ami being around in the
next couple of years? How can the Ami bounce back up if there is noone
producing software for it...I
<[Tony] A.ROSARIO4> mean I'd like to reccomend an Ami to a friend, but I feel
that I shouldn't now
<[Tony] A.ROSARIO4> because I'm not so sure if it'll be around. GA
<DEEPMODEM> i don't doubt for a moment that the amiga will be around
Room 2, The Insider's Conference
Job City Room Sta Mail-Address
1 Greensboro,NC 2 N [Only $19.95] DENNYA
3 Poolesville,MD 2 N [ben] B.BAUER6
4 Bowie,MD 2 N [DeepEnough] K.FERLAZZO
5 Richmond,CA 2 N J.WILSON107
6 West chester,PA 2 N B.J.
7 Ephrata,PA 2 N [DeepChrispy] CHRIS.P
8 Fresno,CA 2 N DEEPTHOUGHT
9 Palos verdes,CA 2 N [Just Zak!] WINTERLORN
10 Fresno,CA 2 L DEB
11 Lanham,MD 2 N CHANTECLER
12 Richmond hts,MO 2 N R.WOOLDRIDG3
13 Madison,WI 2 N [shallow] J.ALMASOL2
14 Westerville,OH 2 N J.KLANN
15 Madison,AL 2 N [Shannon] J.CAVE1
16 Sacramento,CA 2 N [Deep Urple] JIM.MEYER
17 San antonio,TX 2 N [terry] TERRY.M
18 Fresno,CA 2 N DEEPMODEM
19 Exton,PA 2 N [JohnY] J.YEAGER5
20 Haddonfield,NJ 2 N [Too Deep] TV
21 Ntonawanda,NY 2 N J.CLARK57
22 San diego,CA 2 N B.BISHOP5
23 Mays landing,NJ 2 N [bill] W.CAMAROTA
24 Richmond,VA 2 N TAL.LANCRED
25 Metairie,LA 2 N [DeepHurting] M.WHALEN5
26 Peoria,IL 2 N [Wolf] K.MILLER19
27 Glendale heigh,IL 2 N [Anne] W.HUSA
28 Phoenix,AZ 2 N [Russ] R.R.YOST
29 Norcross,GA 2 N [DeepSpam] DEANF
30 Somewhere in,SC 2 N TOM-ROBINSON
31 Hermosa beach,CA 2 N [Rob] R.ANDRE
32 Stanton,MI 2 N [lyle] L.HOLLISTER3
34 Pittsburgh,PA 2 N D.ETTORE
35 Urbana,IL 2 N [Nelson] N.JONES7
36 Miami,FL 2 N J.VIDUEIRA
37 Alexandria,VA 2 N [dave] D.BRAGG
38 Albuqwerty,NM 2 N [DeePeg] P.HERRINGTON
39 Lansing,MI 2 N [Dave] D.NEWCOMB3
40 Tampa,FL 2 N [Adrain] A.BARTON
41 Elk grove,CA 2 N [Deep Stuff] BOB.ELLER
42 Brantford,ON 2 N W.MALONE4
43 Riverside,CA 2 N TLJOHNSON
44 Stnarcisse,PQ 2 N G.PRENEVOST
45 Nashua,NH 2 N B.CURTIS3
46 Baltimore,MD 2 N [John Byrne] J.BYRNE6
47 Richmond,VA 2 N [Richard] R.HILL28
48 Winnipeg,MB 2 N D.ANYADIKE1
49 Brooklyn,NY 2 N [Tony] A.ROSARIO4
50 Kalamazoo,MI 2 N [DD] D.DUSSIAS
52 Upper marlboro,MD 2 N []3ob] IRONWORKS
53 Jacksonville,FL 2 N [Ereth Akbe] C.AUGUSTINE2
54 Mammoth lakes,CA 2 N L.JONES26
55 Falls church,VA 2 N [Courtney] G.HALL26
57 Chino,CA 2 N R.GARNER5
58 Silverdale,WA 2 N M.BARLOW1
59 Danbury,CT 2 N [DEEPCHEEP] J.BAKER16
60 Bayamon,PR 2 N A.LOPEZGALL1
61 Jackson height,NY 2 N S.GREENBAUM3
62 Hato rey,PR 2 N FELIX
64 Miami,FL 2 N FRED.M
65 Cazenovia,NY 2 N A.LYON1
66 Little rock,AR 2 N [Stephen] SLJOHNSON
67 Isla verde,PR 2 N J.AYALA2
68 Chattanooga,TN 2 N M.TROXELL1
69 Tallahassee,FL 2 N R.COPPER
70 Downingtown,PA 2 N [Darren] DMG
71 Kailuakona,HI 2 N [Deepsix] G.GILBERTSON
72 Vancouver,WA 2 N D.EDWARDS18
73 Richmond,VA 2 N [DeepBug] S.LUTNES
75 Dekalb,IL 2 N D.COZORT2
76 Greensboro,NC 2 N RHETT
77 St albans,WV 2 N [Tony] A.SCHIRTZING
78 Colorado sprin,CO 2 N [Universe] M.LEVESQUE
79 Dunkirk,NY 2 N [Paul] P.SOMERFELDT
80 Tacoma,WA 2 N D.LEPORE
81 Oldsmar,FL 2 N M.GOOD6
82 San diego,CA 2 N O.IVIE1
83 Columbus,OH 2 N D.VANTREASE
85 Spokane,WA 2 N K.HOLMDAHL2
<[Tony] A.ROSARIO4> Yeah, it will be around, but there'll be no software for
it.
<DEEPMODEM> in the next few years. will be be on the rise again? probably
not. the peak has been met -- C= will generate other things from here on out.
<DEEPMODEM> Commodore isn't a software company. it has been traditionally,
and is, a hw company.
<DEEPMODEM> management is concerned with moving volume of low-end machines out
the door. they couldn't care less about high-end stuff.
<[Tony] A.ROSARIO4> Yeah, I know, but there are fewer and fewer programs
coming out for it..
<DEEPMODEM> As 'every man has his time', so does every computer.
<[Tony] A.ROSARIO4> I found that I needed to get an Emplant board, just so I
could have a larger software base.
<DEEPMODEM> >shrug<
<[Tony] A.ROSARIO4> I'm done
<DEEPMODEM> Unless DT has something to say -- next.
<CHANTECLER> OK..
<DEEPTHOUGHT> nah
<CHANTECLER> Is there any truth to the rumors about the A1400? And about a 8
voice 16 bit sound chip? (not DSP)
<DEEPMODEM> Nope and Nope.
<CHANTECLER> Thank you
<DEEPMODEM> next
<D.VANTREASE> Can you tell us when the CD32-ROM for A1200/A4000 will be out?
and a price?
<D.VANTREASE> And does CBM really plan on ADVERTISING the Cd32 ??
<DEEPTHOUGHT> CD32-ROM = unknown. Marketing is a black art to even the folks
inside.
<DEB> [heh, it was when I worked there, too.] Some things never change. :)
<DEEPTHOUGHT> advertising = I suspect there will be some advertisiing but
tradition say not enough ...
<DEEPTHOUGHT> there are two problems ...
<DEEPTHOUGHT> 1. upper management doesn't believe in it very much, and
<DEEPTHOUGHT> 2. In the US, particularly, it simply costs too much to be
really effective ..
<DEB> [Question Queue: J.CAVE1, DENNYA, P.HERRINGTON R.WOODRIDG3 and J.KLANN]
<D.VANTREASE> Ok... thats all... unless you want to share your thoughts on the
"stockholders movement" :-)
<DEEPTHOUGHT> CBM doesn' clear enough profit per machine to pay for it.
<D.VANTREASE> Thanks !!
<DEEPTHOUGHT> sure, I think it's a nice thought but will prove pointless.
<DEEPMODEM> agreed
<DEEPTHOUGHT> next?
<DEB> Care to tell why you think so?
<DEEPTHOUGHT> sure ...
<DEEPTHOUGHT> the movement is playing the game with professionals on their
turf. It's like getting together your sandlot football team to go play against
the Raiders. Nice idea but you'll get your butts kicked.
<DEEPTHOUGHT> dm ?
<DEEPMODEM> I just think that while it sounds good, noone will easily remove
mehdi ali from
<DEEPMODEM> control of the company. i just don't see it.
<DEEPMODEM> next?
<[Shannon] J.CAVE1> What is the status of the AGA Enhancer board? and What is
the real
<[Shannon] J.CAVE1> story behind the super buster fiasco in the A4000?
<DEEPMODEM> First part -- hard to say. both of the original designers have
left
<DEEPMODEM> commodore now. it's interest to management has always been
fickle. i wouldn't
<DEEPMODEM> hold my breath. second part? a screwup -- what else? it was a
mistake.
<DEEPMODEM> next
<DEEPTHOUGHT> let me add
<[Shannon] J.CAVE1> Any upgrade path for CDTV owners to CD32?
<[Shannon] J.CAVE1> I'm done.
<DEEPTHOUGHT> let me add that what happened re: buster is that until the 4091
was designed there had never been a real zorro-iii board to test with.
<DEEPTHOUGHT> upgrade path is a marketing decision. We know precious little on
this. dm has something to say, too.
<DEEPMODEM> just wanted to say that it's not likely. not financially prudent.
<DEEPMODEM> this way, management can sell another cd32.
<DEEPMODEM> you done, dt?
<[MyBook$19.95] DENNYA> West Chester has been pared down to a bare minimum. It
certainly doesn't make sense for a company who's reason to exist is to "make
money" (the one thing they're no good at anymore) to stay in the U.S. Is
there any confidence in the building that the US operation will stay open? How
many people are left in Engineering and software?
<DEEPTHOUGHT> yeah
<[MyBook$19.95] DENNYA> And how the heck has Dionne beaten the 18-month
syndrome, looking at the current plunge? :-/
<DEEPMODEM> okay ...
<DEEPMODEM> yes..almost every department in the building has been cut to the
minimum.
<DEEPTHOUGHT> or beyond :(
<DEEPMODEM> in fact, most well beyond the minimum.
<DEEPMODEM> but, where would commodore move? europe? how are they going to
get the
<DEEPMODEM> engineers and support staff there? pay them to move? not likely.
commodore
<DEEPTHOUGHT> grin
<[BuyMyBook!] DENNYA> But there aren't that many engineers and support staff
to move anymore...
<DEEPMODEM> is likely to remain where it is for awhile. how many people in
eng? i dunno.
<DEEPMODEM> yeah, but can you conceive of paying guys like haynie to move to
germany? he'd stay here, likely.
<[BuyMyBook!] DENNYA> They could keep an engineering staff here without
bothering to sell products here...
<DEEPTHOUGHT> ahem ...
<DEEPMODEM> They probably will keep eng here.
<DEEPTHOUGHT> I agree. The cost of moving to europe is probably prohibitive
...
<[BuyMyBook!] DENNYA> Oh well. Good to hear that the pullout rumored since
1987 or so isn't likely. :-)
<DEEPTHOUGHT> Most of the remaining engineers wouldn't want to go.
<DEEPTHOUGHT> so they would have to find new people. That would kill the Amiga
as the learning curve is just too high for new engineers.
<DEEPTHOUGHT> next ?
<[BuyMyBook!] DENNYA> Just one more question: Is DSP still likely? Okay, two:
Is it feasible to retrofit the chunky chip to an amiga wiht a cd add-on?
<[BuyMyBook!] DENNYA> GA
<DEEPTHOUGHT> maybe & not likely
<DEEPMODEM> okay .. quickies -- dsp? it's still possible, but not likely.
<DEEPMODEM> and two -- yes -- not lkely.
<DEEPMODEM> next
<[DeePeg] P.HERRINGTON> I hear all sorts of rumors and I'd like to know your
thoughts on several. First, one is that C= U.S. is down to four executives
left (or will be shortly)...
<[DeePeg] P.HERRINGTON> Second, that Mehdi Ali's contract expired and was not
renewed (don't laugh)...
<[DeePeg] P.HERRINGTON> Third, that the quarterly financial report that was
due out a couple of weeks ago (which hasn't turned up) is worse than the last
one.
<[DeePeg] P.HERRINGTON> Comments, gents? :)
<DEEPTHOUGHT> 1. define "executive". 2. Mehdi is still there. 3. unknown.
...
<[DeePeg] P.HERRINGTON> Oh, and that hardware and software development are
literally at a standstill. Is any of this true?
<DEEPTHOUGHT> Mehdi's contract expired in June ( I think) but he was kept on.
<[DeePeg] P.HERRINGTON> Executive being a department head.
<DEEPTHOUGHT> department heads = about 5
<[DeePeg] P.HERRINGTON> How many were there before? About.
<DEEPTHOUGHT> not much different froom "normal" though.
<[DeePeg] P.HERRINGTON> Like a couple of years ago.
<DEEPTHOUGHT> about the same
<[DeePeg] P.HERRINGTON> Ahh.. okay.
<DEEPTHOUGHT> management stays - workers go.
<[DeePeg] P.HERRINGTON> Gotcha. What about development?
<DEEPTHOUGHT> what about it?
<[DeePeg] P.HERRINGTON> Is it still ongoing.. develoment of new products.
<DEEPTHOUGHT> there are heads for mach eng, software, hardware, amiga and docs
<DEEPTHOUGHT> barely
<DEEPTHOUGHT> dm has something to say ...
<DEEPMODEM> just that yes, development is continuing, but not at the pace some
of the
<DEEPMODEM> amiga fanatics hope. just baaaarely.
<DEEPMODEM> ga
<[DeePeg] P.HERRINGTON> Okay. Thanks. GA
<R.WOOLDRIDG3> Has comodore ever thought of contacting an advertizing agency
to help with their image and marketing (or lack of)? How do they expect to
compete with Sega and Nintendo without advertizing?
<DEEPMODEM> Mehdi apparently announced that ...
<DEEPMODEM> "if you build a good enough product, people will buy it" as a
retort to
<DEB> Next five people in the list of 20some in the queue:
<DEB> [J.KLANN, D.DUSSIAS, G.HALL26, FELIX, W.CAMARORA]
<DEEPMODEM> heavy advertising. we will continue to advertise in europe. just
not here. dt?
<DEEPTHOUGHT> as I said before, it's not in the belief system of upper
management to spend big bucks to advertise.
<R.WOOLDRIDG3> I went into a software store yesterday and mentioned cd32. The
guy told me that without support from EA it will die and EA is commited to
3DO.
<DEEPTHOUGHT> they DO need to advertise the CD32 but I suspect they won't do
so heavily in the US at least.
<DEEPMODEM> Also ..
<DEEPTHOUGHT> well, software stores are notoriously ill informed and oddly
opinionated about such things. It's all more basic than that, I'm afraid.
<DEEPMODEM> commodore is still in bad financial trouble. heavy advertising
when we can
<DEEPMODEM> not afford to build machines isn't likely to win approval.
<R.WOOLDRIDG3> Thanks. GA
<DEEPTHOUGHT> think about this ...
<DEEPTHOUGHT> the cost of 10 prime time TV commercials in one major market
would pay for an engineers annual salary.
<DEEPTHOUGHT> next ?
<J.KLANN> ok...
<J.KLANN> COmmodore's stock is dangerously low. Is there any truth to the
rumors that without a
<J.KLANN> good Christmas season sales in Europe, bankruptcy is a pobbibility?
And what about
<J.KLANN> the old rumors of Commodore avoiding takeover by about 20 companies,
including
<J.KLANN> Nintendo? GA
<DEEPTHOUGHT> heh.
<DEEPTHOUGHT> ok, the stock price is based upon profitability. ...
<DEEPTHOUGHT> the more money you look like you're going to make, the higher
the stock goes.
<DEEPTHOUGHT> it's more complex than that, obviously, but that's a decent
simplification.
<DEEPTHOUGHT> re: bankruptcy ...
<DEEPTHOUGHT> it certainly not an impossibility. The company if banking
heavily on the success of the CD32. most of the remaining free cash they have
scrounged up has gone to this project.
<DEEPTHOUGHT> re: takeovers
<DEEPTHOUGHT> what would another company want CBM for?
<DEEPMODEM> >laughing<
<J.KLANN> Nintendo supposedly wanted the custom chip technology?
<DEEPTHOUGHT> most anything of value has been sold, fired or used up.
...Suddenly your screen blanks for a moment and a quick pan of DeepModem
chuckling appears. the latest Kiki effects have blurred the face, and all you
see is a goofy looking costume.
<J.KLANN> :) Okay, one quickie. Do you know anything about the release date
for CD32 in the US?
<DEEPTHOUGHT> that might have been true at one point but the chip technology
is fast getting old and most of the valuable personnel in that area are gone.
... And all is normal again, our guests two silouettes on the screen.
<DEEPTHOUGHT> marketing question. Unknown.
<DEEPMODEM> Ditto.
<DEB> Here's the complete list in my question queue... [in order]
<DEB> D.DUSSIAS, G.HALL26, FELIX, W.CAMARORA
<DEB> TERRY.M, D.ETTORE, RHETT, M.TROXELL1, M.WHALEN5
<DEB> G.GILBERTSON, A.LOPEZGALL1, A.SCHIRTZING, A.ROSARIO4
<DEB> J.WILSON107, CHANTECLER, J.COLLINS5, R.DOBSON2, T.fINCHER
<DEB> DENNYA, WINTERLORN, JIM.MEYER, J.PALMER2
<DEEPTHOUGHT> europe is the last, great hope, I'm afraid.
<DEEPTHOUGHT> gads
<[DD] D.DUSSIAS> So, when will we see 3.1 ROMS for the A2000/3000 and a patch
for A4000 & A1200? Also, the chunky <-> planar chip, Can programmers access
this directly, and use it to convert stuff on the fly or not? (1 more
question...)
<[DD] D.DUSSIAS> I also hear about the AAA machine is gonna be shown at the
next C= show true?
<DEEPTHOUGHT> marketing question. Unknown.
<DEEPTHOUGHT> AAA - no way
<DEEPMODEM> >chortle<
<DEEPTHOUGHT> I wouldn't hold my breath for AAA. Too few people and key people
involved are gone or going.
<DEEPMODEM> you can write to the chunky-to-planar chip yourself, but you'll
break the
<DEEPMODEM> rules. you won't gain much of anything by it, and if you use the
software calls, you get
<DEEPMODEM> software emulation in amigas that don't have that chip.
<DEEPMODEM> next
<[DD] D.DUSSIAS> OK, thanks..as for why anyony want CBM, Tax shelter!
<[DD] D.DUSSIAS> GA
<DEB> heh
<DEEPMODEM> Many have considered that it was being used as such for years.
Maybe.
<DEEPMODEM> I don't know. dt?
<DEB> Courtney, are you alive?
<DEEPTHOUGHT> tax shelter? I don't think that's the primary goal, no. I'm
sure it's turned out that way more than once, though (g)
<DEB> Hmmmm. One of the questions from the Audience seems to have stage
fright. :)
<DEEPTHOUGHT> (g)
<[terry] TERRY.M> IF C= really wants to make a quick buck, why not release
3.0+ for the older machines? 3.0+ really doesn't need aga, does it? It's
really free money, right?
<DEEPMODEM> It's really not the simple. The profit to be made isn't as
significant as
<DEEPMODEM> many would like to believe -- there's a LOAD of packaging,
manuals, et cetra
<DEEPMODEM> to sell such a package. like i said before, commodore sells
hardware.
<DEEPMODEM> software is only there as a necessity.
<DEEPMODEM> dt?
<[terry] TERRY.M> too bad, catering to the existing customers is good
business...
<DEEPTHOUGHT> yeah, there's precious little profit in that.
<[terry] TERRY.M> done..
<DEEPTHOUGHT> but cbm has never catered to anyone.
<DEEPMODEM> next
<D.ETTORE> Since the move is towards RISC, will we see a PowerPC chip in the
Amiga?
<DEEPMODEM> Not likely. Different chip. And you won't see it soon. Not for
a loooooong time,
<DEEPMODEM> i hear.
<D.ETTORE> I'm done. Thanks.
<DEEPMODEM> next
<[MyBook$29.95] RHETT> Commodore doesn't sound very viable anymore....
<[MyBook$29.95] RHETT> Do you think there is a long-term future?...
<[MyBook$29.95] RHETT> Are there other, non-computer products in the works?
<[MyBook$29.95] RHETT> GA.
<DEEPMODEM> First, do I think Commodore has a long-term future? well, the
company will
<DEEPMODEM> survive it's current problems, i think. it's too big to disappear
overnight.
<DEEPMODEM> but long term success? no. A lot of resignations are floating
around right
<DEEPMODEM> now from the key people that design the new products. when they
leave,
<DEEPMODEM> so do most of the possibilities. Are there other non computer
products
<DEEPMODEM> in the works? If you mean game machine stuff, there's talk.
products?
<DEEPMODEM> not really.
<DEEPMODEM> dt?
<[MyBook$29.95] RHETT> Thanks, Modem.
<DEEPTHOUGHT> CBM may hang in there for a while. The Amiga is another question
altogether. As DT says, many key folks have left or are soon to leave.
<[MyBook$29.95] RHETT> (I meant any products, calculators, typewriters, etc.
:-> )
<DEEPTHOUGHT> that puts a real crimp in things as the lore of the machine goes
with them.
<DEEPTHOUGHT> the tight money in the place has meant ...
<DEEPTHOUGHT> that each part of the development is handled by one (and only
one( engineer. So if he leaves, someone else has to learn it all over a long
time.
<DEEPTHOUGHT> whcih, of course, puts thing further and further behind the
markets demands.
<DEEPTHOUGHT> next ?
<[MyBook$29.95] RHETT> Thanks, Thought.
<[DeepHurting] M.WHALEN5> You two seem quite relenting when speaking of
Amiga's possible demise. Why?
<DEB> Next 5 in list: G.GILBERTSON, A.LOPEZGALL1, A.SCHIRTZING, A.ROSARIO4
<DEEPTHOUGHT> relenting?
<[DeepHurting] M.WHALEN5> Well.. maybe I should say that you don't seem to
care.
<[DeepHurting] M.WHALEN5> That's not as harsh as it sounds.
<DEEPTHOUGHT> not so. it's just facing the facts of life. All things pass and
the Amiga will, too. The questions are "when?" and "why?"
<DEEPTHOUGHT> not "if"
<DEEPTHOUGHT> dm ?
<DEEPMODEM> We're just facing facts. Commodore is in terrible financial
times, and
<DEEPMODEM> the Amiga is way behind technically. The kinds of development
effports to
<DEEPMODEM> make the amiga competitive should have been done two, three, four
years
<DEEPTHOUGHT> and it's not just us two, either.
<[DeepHurting] M.WHALEN5> You certainly not painting a very bright future.
This could hurt ya know.
<DEEPMODEM> ago for they to appear now. it wasn't done.
<DEEPMODEM> that's okay. my resumes are out. none of our jobs at commodore
are
<DEEPMODEM> very secure anyways.
<[DeepHurting] M.WHALEN5> Maybe Phil Robinson was right.. Be seeing you.
<DEEPMODEM> next?
<[Deepsix] G.GILBERTSON> Any info on the monitor cable gizmo we need to make
the 1960 work with the new t4000? and...
<[Deepsix] G.GILBERTSON> I'm getting the impression that Personnel at West
Chester would report that Janitorial jobs account for most of the people
there. Is this...
<[Deepsix] G.GILBERTSON> (1) true & (2) part of the MARKETING strategy? GA.
<DEEPTHOUGHT> unknown re: the monitor cable thing. ...
<DEEPTHOUGHT> the janitors are history, too.
<DEEPTHOUGHT> for the most part. The cost cutting has been pretty merciless.
Even the receptionist is gone.
<[Deepsix] G.GILBERTSON> Every Toaster ad shows a 1960 working with a T4000
and NewTek says it C='s thing to make happen
<[Deepsix] G.GILBERTSON> Lots of us with 1960's that wish they were 1084's
hehe
<[Deepsix] G.GILBERTSON> At least LEAK the info necessary... understand a chip
is needed
<DEEPTHOUGHT> well, NewTek and CBM have a history or blaming each other.
<[Deepsix] G.GILBERTSON> I'm done. sigh
<DEEPTHOUGHT> NewTek is in a real interesting position, aren't they?
<DEEPTHOUGHT> next?
<[Alberto] A.LOPEZGALL1> I want to become a C= dealer any advise? GA
<DEEPTHOUGHT> I'd give it considerable research and thought before laying out
a lot of $$$
<DEEPTHOUGHT> there are dealers who are quite successful at this. But even
they are wary right now.
<DEEPTHOUGHT> advise you? Not me! (g)
<DEB> Did I forget to put up the advice disclaimer? <Grin>
<[Alberto] A.LOPEZGALL1> And with faith and hard work, any chance of success?
<DEEPTHOUGHT> maybe. But I'd be very wary of any such undertaking.
<[Alberto] A.LOPEZGALL1> Thanks...I'm done
<DEEPTHOUGHT> I personally wouldn't invest in it.
<DEB> There's a number of Amiga dealers online, you might start a topic in the
BBoard and ask around.
<[Tony] A.SCHIRTZING> I have CDTV and would like to have the probundle for it.
Will one be available for the CD32, and would it be compatable with CDTV?
<DEEPTHOUGHT> good idea
<DEEPMODEM> Sorry, I don't know. With the new libraries on the CD32, I doubt
it,
<DEEPMODEM> but until somebody tries them, i don't know. dt?
<[Tony] A.SCHIRTZING> Do you know if I can use my A2000 keyboard with an
adapter?
<DEEPTHOUGHT> some might work but it's a crapshoot as to what will/won't.
<DEEPTHOUGHT> on the CD32?
<[Tony] A.SCHIRTZING> CDTV
<DEEPTHOUGHT> I dunno. Never paid much attention to CDTV (g)
<[Tony] A.SCHIRTZING> Thanks.
<[Tony] A.ROSARIO4> What should we buy, CD32 or CDO? And, will C= come out
with a CDO machine? And, if we buy either of these two devices, will we be
helping to dig the Ami's grave as far as it comes to games, since, I assume,
they won't work with the Ami?...
<DEEPTHOUGHT> I was just SENt a message that says "yes, you can do this with
an adapter"
<[Tony] A.ROSARIO4> The picture you all painted is not pretty and I don't see
why anyone should buy CD32
<[Tony] A.ROSARIO4> GA
<DEEPTHOUGHT> that a question ?
<DEEPTHOUGHT> ahhh, ook. Good question
<DEEPTHOUGHT> you should buy is if it does what you want it to do at a price
you think is reasonable.
<DEEPMODEM> CDO=3DO?
<[Tony] A.ROSARIO4> right
<[Tony] A.ROSARIO4> 3D0
<DEEPMODEM> 3DO == MUCH more expensive.
<[Tony] A.ROSARIO4> so?
<DEEPTHOUGHT> 3DO is still an unknown item
<DEEPTHOUGHT> we don't know what it does.
<[Tony] A.ROSARIO4> C= is an unknown item <g>
<DEEPTHOUGHT> hard to compare it to anything
<DEEPTHOUGHT> even harder, than (g)
<DEB> Question queue review:
<DEB> CHANTECLER, J.COLLINS5, R.DOBSON2, T.fINCHER
<DEB> DENNYA, WINTERLORN, JIM.MEYER, J.PALMER2, W.MALONE4
<DEB> TAL.LANCRED, J.CAVE1, D.DUSSIAS, D.EPP,
<[Tony] A.ROSARIO4> done
<DEB> [It is getting smaller!]
<CHANTECLER> OK 3 questions.. how well is the 1200 selling in Europe and the
USA?
<DEEPMODEM> 1200 is selling fine in Europe. US? C'mon! The problem is
building
<DEEPMODEM> them, not selling them.
<DEEPMODEM> part 2?
<CHANTECLER> What do you see as the future of the Amiga in Europ?
<DEEPMODEM> CD-32. Like DT said, commodore is hoping it'll be really
successful.
<DEEPMODEM> part 3?
<CHANTECLER> Do you read the AMiga USENET newsgroups? What do you think of
Marc Barrett (if you know of him)?
<DEEPMODEM> Good question.
<DEEPMODEM> everyone on usenet hates marc, but lately, he's been right an
awful lot -- and
<DEEPMODEM> a lot of crazy amiga fanatics have been 'shooting the messenger' so
<DEEPMODEM> to speak. he's not necessarily tactful, but he is often right.
Deepthought
<DEEPMODEM> has something to say, also?
<DEEPTHOUGHT> yes...
<DEEPTHOUGHT> MB is a very aggravating individual who has made a career of
being a gadfly...
<DEEPTHOUGHT> but the fact is (particularly lately) he has been right on the
money about many thing. The only folks on usenet more irritating are those
who refuse to hear what he says because ...
<DEEPTHOUGHT> 1. it's negative press about the Amiga, and ...
<DEEPTHOUGHT> 2. the info comes from Marc.
<CHANTECLER> Thank you and good luck to you both
<DEEPTHOUGHT> next ?
<DEEPTHOUGHT> thanks
<J.COLLINS5> Are CBM's former Employies going to the same company or staying
together at all? To me the best thing about the Amiga is it's multitasking OS.
Any chance of an Amiga like OS being made for other platforms? (I hate windoz
and SYS7)
<J.COLLINS5> Are we ever going to see retagetable graphics for the Amiga?
<J.COLLINS5> Is the DSP libraries and stuff done enough to let third partyies
support
<J.COLLINS5> them?
<J.COLLINS5> Do you think we may see a new NON-Amiga Computer from CBM?
<J.COLLINS5> Any chance of seeing an A4000 class machine that can compete with
a
<J.COLLINS5> Quadra?
<J.COLLINS5> Is CBM going to have 68060 support?
<J.COLLINS5> Just WHAT expansion options are available for CD32? Fast RAM?
<J.COLLINS5> Accelerators?
<J.COLLINS5>
<DEEPMODEM> Whoa, nelly!
<J.COLLINS5> For starters. B)
<DEEPMODEM> (1) Some to 3d0. other than that, no.
<DEEPMODEM> (2) maybe, but not soon. chris green really was the key to that.
<DEEPMODEM> (3) yes, more for the dsp would be nice, but it's not a high
enough priority.
<DEEPMODEM> (4) Quadra? probably not. commodore's a low-end company.
<DEEPMODEM> (5) we answered this earlier. probably not.
<DEEPMODEM> (6) CD-32 has MPEG support coming soon.
<DEEPMODEM> dt?
<DEEPTHOUGHT> pretty much sums it up. Former employees are going to several
places. Some to 3DO, some to SGI, some to startups and some to the great void.
<DEEPTHOUGHT> next ?
<J.COLLINS5> What about the CD32 fastram option?
<J.COLLINS5> True false?
<DEEPMODEM> can't say
<DEEPMODEM> next
<DEB> Don, JC?
<DEB> er, Done?
<J.COLLINS5> CBM used to be a leader in Virtual reality? any plans there?
<J.COLLINS5> GA!
<J.COLLINS5> Done?
<J.COLLINS5> Done!
<DEEPMODEM> wow. using up your q quota early, i see.
<DEEPTHOUGHT> really? News to me.
<DEEPMODEM> cbm in vr? not really. no plans.
<DEEPTHOUGHT> I guess you could say that CBM creates virtual realities (g)
<DEEPMODEM> >laugh<
<[DA'sBATS$20!] DENNYA> Well, I think this conference has probably sold a
number of
<[DA'sBATS$20!] DENNYA> MS-DOS machines. Perhaps you should reassure folks
that even if
<[DA'sBATS$20!] DENNYA> Commodore stagnates, the support industry isn't going
to disappear
<[DA'sBATS$20!] DENNYA> overnight. I'm not enthusiastic about new products
from CBM, but
<[DA'sBATS$20!] DENNYA> that also doesn't mean an end to Amiga hardware and
software
<[DA'sBATS$20!] DENNYA> support. I think an "I agree" that this view is
realistic from
<[DA'sBATS$20!] DENNYA> you guys might help keep 1/2 the people in this
conference from
<[DA'sBATS$20!] DENNYA> running out to CompUSA to price PCs tomorrow morning.
If Commodore
<[DA'sBATS$20!] DENNYA> dies tomorrow, that doesn't mean all the software and
hardware will
<[DA'sBATS$20!] DENNYA> disappear the next day.
<[DA'sBATS$20!] DENNYA>
<[DA'sBATS$20!] DENNYA> (Sorry for the formatting)
<DEEPTHOUGHT> I agree
<DEEPMODEM> dt?Yes -- the amiga isn't dead today, everyone. the industry
around it
<DEEPTHOUGHT> the Amiga is a great machine. If it does what you want from a
computer then there is no need for anything else.
<DEEPMODEM> will probably survive for at least a couple of more years.
<DEEPTHOUGHT> or more
<[DA'sBATS$20!] DENNYA> Thanks. :-) Also, you said AAA in Pasadena is a
marketing thing. But would engineering fall down laughing if Marketing
suggested it? <grin>
<DEEPTHOUGHT> yes
<DEEPTHOUGHT> pretty much, yes
<[DA'sBATS$20!] DENNYA> Phew. Thought I was going to have to eat a CDTV there.
Thanks, and GA.
<DEEPTHOUGHT> we'll do what we can for your book sales, Denny (g)
<T.FINCHER> OK
<DEEPMODEM> >laugh<
<DEB> Tommy? I'm sorry. <blush>
<T.FINCHER> Boy! and my question was wiped out!
<DEEPTHOUGHT> take yer time, I must make a pit stop. Be right back ...
<DEB> [Note: R.DOBSON2 wanted to know about the Amiga's future in the market,
and I think it has been answered already in several ways.] :)
<T.FINCHER> What are your thoughts about Newtek purchasing the Amiga line
<DEEPMODEM> it's not likely. Newtek is quietly moving to the pc world, where
they
<DEEPMODEM> don't have to depend on commodore for everything.
<T.FINCHER> and...will the A4000 likely be the one of the last Amigas
<DEEPMODEM> one of the last? probably. THE last? maybe, but not necessarily.
<T.FINCHER> you said eariler that the Amiga was old tech, is it old teck or
lack of software support
<DEEPTHOUGHT> NewTek probably doesn't have the money to purchase the Amiga.
<DEEPTHOUGHT> hold on ..
<T.FINCHER> I always figured the reason the clones sold so well was the
software and marketing not the tech
<T.FINCHER> no thats all
<DEEPTHOUGHT> Amiga is old tech. Definitely.
<T.FINCHER> the A4000?
<DEEPTHOUGHT> and getting older
<DEB> And PeeCee Clones are not?
<DEEPTHOUGHT> current 486 machines are pretty nice and getting nicer.
<DEEPMODEM> a4000 is way too little, way too late. not a real contender.
<DEEPTHOUGHT> people don't care what's under the hood. Just that it runs the
software that they need/want.
<DEEPTHOUGHT> and runs it well.
<DEEPTHOUGHT> ultimately, clones sold at first because they were cheap IBMs
<DEEPTHOUGHT> now they are simply the thing to buy.
<DEEPTHOUGHT> the majority of users don't know or care about the hardware
issues...
<DEEPTHOUGHT> the Amiga folks are much more conscious of these issues but they
are the exception rather than the rule.
<T.FINCHER>
<DEEPTHOUGHT> dm ?
<DEEPMODEM> Nothing more to say on that. Next?
<[Just Zak!] WINTERLORN> Is there any likelyhood of Commodore becoming a
computer company, or the Amiga line being sold to someone who is willing to
push it in that direction? ... Is there any truth to rumors of 'Any port'
networking in 3.1? ...<Thanks Denny! I needed that>...
<[Just Zak!] WINTERLORN> ... Dats all.
<DEEPMODEM> 'Any port'?
<[Just Zak!] WINTERLORN> Just what I heard.
<[Just Zak!] WINTERLORN> 'Networking with any port'
<DEEPMODEM> Commodore becoming a computer company? Not likely.
<DEEPMODEM> COmmodore being bought out? Possible, but not likely.
<[Just Zak!] WINTERLORN> Well, I'm not as concerned with Commodore as the
Amiga.
<DEEPMODEM> Networking? Official word finally came down "not for 3.1". I'm
<DEEPMODEM> pretty sure that all of the networking programmers are gone.
<DEEPMODEM> DT?
<[Just Zak!] WINTERLORN> One other question occured... Before the light moves
on..
<DEEPTHOUGHT> the Amiga has remained a niche computer for so long that it
would be a herculean task to get back in the main stream.
<[Just Zak!] WINTERLORN> Is there anything stopping folks from making 'Amiga
Clones' and if so, what would it take to make that not the case?
<DEEPTHOUGHT> networking is a non-issue to the powers that be. They are
focused on the CD32 which has little need for it.
<DEEPTHOUGHT> CBM would have to be willing to sell the chips to 3rd parties.
Not likely, I'm afraid.
<DEEPMODEM> where will amiga clones get custom chips? Only from commodore.
<[Just Zak!] WINTERLORN> <Mutter>
<DEEPTHOUGHT> there is a simple fact of life iin play here ...
<[BuyMyManual!] JIM.MEYER> It only took a core of 25 to design the Amiga and
all of them have been gone for some time. If the sun came up tomorrow, and
Mehdi, Rubin and Goooooould were gone, what are your thoughts on the future?
and.. is Lew gonna hang around?....
<[BuyMyManual!] JIM.MEYER> (feel free to disconnect your answer from
reality... ;-)
<DEEPTHOUGHT> the Intel machines are still gaining market momentum at a great
rate. It's a juggernaut that will be next to impossible to stop.
<DEEPMODEM> it just isn't possible to design new systems without some form of
funding. getting rid
<DEEPMODEM> of management isn't eh rpoblem. it's funding development effort.
WHAT
<DEEPMODEM> to build is an equally big question -- commodore has failed
miserably in
<DEEPMODEM> the computer market, and is making a last stand in the games
market. Too many variables.
<[BuyMyManual!] JIM.MEYER> Sure, I understand that, but what would YOU do with
the current products?
<DEEPMODEM> Could things be turned around? Sure. Expensive, though.
<DEEPMODEM> dt?
<DEEPMODEM> (DeepThought has something to say)
<DEEPTHOUGHT> what would I do if I were king?
<[BuyMyManual!] JIM.MEYER> Yep
<DEEPTHOUGHT> Hmmm.. good question.
<DEEPTHOUGHT> I'd need a BIG budget.
<DEEPMODEM> >laughing<
<DEEPTHOUGHT> I haven't thought about this one much...
<DEEPTHOUGHT> The market is speaking and it shoutiing "inetl and Microsoft"
quite loudly ..
<DEEPTHOUGHT> at least when it comes to general computing.
<DEEPTHOUGHT> it's hard to imagine where you would plug the Amiga into things
and how you would differetiate it from the mass market clones enough to sell
them.
<DEEPTHOUGHT> I'd have to work on that one a bit to answer fairly, I'm afriad.
<DEEPTHOUGHT> dm ?
<[BuyMyManual!] JIM.MEYER> Fair enough. ga
<DEB> Last question queue [No more /raises, gang, it is late!] ....
<DEEPMODEM> Oh, I have lots of good ideas. If you have 30 mill or so to start
<DEB> J.PALMER2, W.MALONE4,TAL.LANCRED, J.CAVE1, D.DUSSIAS, D.EPP, TV,
K.THOMPSON23
<DEB> J.COLLINS5, A.LOPEZGALL1,
<DEEPMODEM> with, call me. >laugh<
<DEEPTHOUGHT> at least (g)
<DEB> J.Palmer??
<J.PALMER2> HI. I was wondering, with companies like NewTek and others who
have had offesto buy themhout, why isn't it that no one offered for CBM?
<DEB> Someone poke him for me, please.
<DEB> <grin> there he is.
<DEEPTHOUGHT> well, assuming thatit's true that no one has offered to buy out
CBM ...
<DEEPTHOUGHT> I suspect that it's because NewTek shows real profit and growth
while CBM doesn't.
<J.PALMER2> NewTek clams up when you mention the rumor that Sony tried to buy
them out. It would seem like the logical choice to go after the Amiga if they
can't get the Toaster directly.
<J.PALMER2> What do you think of the group of stock-holders trying to oust
Irv? Do you think they can make a difference?
<DEEPTHOUGHT> well, most any compnay would clam up when asked such questions
since it's really not the business of the general public what they are or
aren't doing. No compnay will answer that the way you would like (g)
<DEEPTHOUGHT> we answered that earlier. It's a nice sentiment that is doomed
to failure, I'm afraid.
<J.PALMER2> By what you've been saying, there's little chance for AAA to show
up at all - ever?
<DEEPTHOUGHT> there have been rumors of Sony buying CBM for years. I've never
seen any hard evidence that it's ever been real, however.
<DEEPTHOUGHT> I think it's highly unlikely, yes. DM ?
<DEEPMODEM> AAA might show up eventually. Not soon, though. Certainly not
'next month'.
<J.PALMER2> Last one - I have the AS225 network software. Beta testers say
the new one works fine. Will it leave out the door anytime soon?
<DEEPTHOUGHT> unlikely
<J.PALMER2> Thanks.
<W.MALONE4> Will an Amiga OS, native to the processor, be available on the
RISC machines.i.e. Will the RISC machines be Amigas or Unix/NT boxes?
<DEEPMODEM> Suprisingly, unknown. NT has been talked about, and
<DEEPMODEM> ideally, AmigaDOS would be a good choice as well. No decision has
been
<DEEPMODEM> made, mostly, from what I'm told, because there aren't enough
software
<DEEPMODEM> programmers to do either. not even near. Deepthought has
something to say?
<DEEPTHOUGHT> yeah, the problem with this RISC Amiga idea is that,
essentially, you are starting over with a whole new machine. It's not an
upgrade. It needs all new hardware and all new software - from scratch. With
only 10-15 people in engineering ...
<W.MALONE4> [What are the priorities in new product development? Fine, it's
going slowly._What_ is going slowly?
<DEEPTHOUGHT> who would come into play on such a project, it would take a long
time before anything concrete existed.
<DEEPTHOUGHT> the only thing 'new
<DEEPTHOUGHT> 'is CD32
<W.MALONE4> Could you elaborate on your comment that the Amiga is way behind
technically.Behind what, and in what ways?
<DEEPTHOUGHT> there is a small bit of R&D on some things but it's at a crawl.
More than that we can't/shouldn't say.
<DEEPTHOUGHT> speed, graphics, software, support, reputation ....
<DEEPMODEM> agreed -- the Amiga has 'kept pace' for the
<DEEPMODEM> past several years. there hasn't been any amazing developments to
<DEEPMODEM> push commodore ahead of the competition. Mostly just enough
effort to
<DEEPMODEM> keep the comeptition in sight.
<DEEPMODEM> This is mostly because of understaffing.
<DEEPMODEM> ANything else, dt?
<DEEPTHOUGHT> nope
<DEEPMODEM> next
<W.MALONE4> ga
<TAL.LANCRED> Any chance of CBM selling off it's Amiga division or being
baught out in the near future? Maybe Bill Gates or someone else would take it
:). At least there would be some decent product support and marketing. Is it
my imagination or has the Amiga div always been sort of a stepchild in the CBM
boardrooms? Oh and when will the 4000T be shipping?
<DEEPMODEM> Division? The Amiga is Commodore right now. Not much else.
<DEEPMODEM> Bill gates? why? he has pc vendors salivating over him. he
doesn't need
<DEEPMODEM> it. no -- commodore has tried to make the amiga suceed. they
haven't
<DEEPMODEM> always done a good job, but they've been trying. it's hard to
beat the
<DEEPMODEM> MSDOS tide, everyone.
<DEEPMODEM> DT?
<DEEPTHOUGHT> yeah, the only thing Bill Gates sees iin the Amiga is a ...
<DEEPTHOUGHT> funny little machine that does video like he wishes clones
could. But he also knows that his clones soon will and that will be that.
<DEEPTHOUGHT> next ?
<DEEPTHOUGHT> oh, unknown re: 4000t
<TAL.LANCRED> Thanks :)
<TAL.LANCRED> Done.
<[Shannon] J.CAVE1> WOC is comming up; at least 39 exhibitors...
<[Shannon] J.CAVE1> Four major execs will be talking about the future of the
Amiga
<[Shannon] J.CAVE1> How do you think what they will say will differ?
<DEEPMODEM> do you expect them to say negative things? certainly not.
<DEEPMODEM> and note that they're talking 'possible future', not 'products
shippinh'.
<[Shannon] J.CAVE1> David Pleasance head of Commodore UK says a NT based RISC
Amiga in about 12 months...
<DEEPMODEM> He was wrong. Painfully wrong.
<DEEPTHOUGHT> hahahaha
<DEEPTHOUGHT> uh uh
<DEEPMODEM> Just not enough staff.
<[Shannon] J.CAVE1> Any positive inside info???
<[Shannon] J.CAVE1> I'm done.
<DEEPMODEM> Yes. Commodore isn't dead, and probably won't die.
<DEEPTHOUGHT> sure, not everyone has been fired (g)
<DEEPMODEM> luckily. >laugh<
<[Dan] D.EPP> Assuming CD32 were a large sucess, both here and in Europe,
Where do you feel..
<[Dan] D.EPP> the Amiga will be. A) history in CBM's eyes.
<DEEPMODEM> If CD32 was a wide sucess, the future would be open.
<[Dan] D.EPP> B) a much need cash infusion.
<[Dan] D.EPP> In your opinions.
<DEEPMODEM> Anything would be possible. The cash from it would fund some
research and development.
<DEEPMODEM> deepthought?
<DEEPTHOUGHT> well, it's hard to say because the the market changes so much...
<DEEPTHOUGHT> success of CD32 would bring in much needed cash. It would pay
off debts at first. But then the question becomes "what now?"
<[Dan] D.EPP> So DT you feel CBM might go on to different areas?
<DEEPTHOUGHT> if CD32 is a big successs the tendency will be to go in that
direction.
<DEEPTHOUGHT> define 'different'
<[Dan] D.EPP> More Games console type products.
<[Dan] D.EPP> Rather than putting more money in the Amiga.
<[Dan] D.EPP> Done! :)
<DEEPTHOUGHT> well, it's only a guess but success would likely take you in
that direction, yes.
<[Too Deep] TV> I feel like I've been at a wake. Help me here I've fallen
down. Is C- doing anything on the low end of the food chain ie. 1200. Are we
going to see bundles of software with the low end machines?
<DEEPTHOUGHT> marketing questions again. Unknown.
<DEEPTHOUGHT> the A1200 seems to be doing well enough. The problem ...
<DEEPTHOUGHT> has been getting enough cash and parts to build them.
<DEEPTHOUGHT> the A4000 has been doing better than expected - I suspect this
is due to the Toaster (at least in the US)
<DEEPTHOUGHT> but what the future holds is anyone's guess.
<[Too Deep] TV> Any rumbles from the third party folk?
<DEEPTHOUGHT> let me say something here ...
<DEEPTHOUGHT> It is not our desire to get anyone depressed here. But we feel
that as loyal Amiga folks ...
<DEEPTHOUGHT> you deserve to hear/see the realities of the situation and not
some glossy, everything is wonderful public relations campaign designed to
keep you on board.
<[Too Deep] TV> I guess the bad news had to come from someWhere.
<[Too Deep] TV> I'm done
<K.THOMPSON23> Who would the employee's of CBM like to see purchase the
company, anybody in particular that YOU would like to see (someone with deep
pockets, obviously...)?
<DEEPTHOUGHT> facts is facts and a lot of Amiga folks don't want to face them.
For that I'm soryy. But the truth will ultimately serve everyone better than
bullshit will.
<DEEPMODEM> Practical buyouts, or just fantasies?
<K.THOMPSON23> Both... :)
<DEEPMODEM> Practical? A japanese company with money. Fantasy? SGI. HP.
<DEEPMODEM> dt?
<K.THOMPSON23> Think it'll happen (either case, that is) anytime soon (within
2 years?)
<K.THOMPSON23> I'm done.
<DEEPTHOUGHT> I guess SGI but I'd want to know why they wanted it. I suspect
that any company doing such a purchase would want parts of the company and not
the Amiga as a whole....
<DEEPMODEM> no. i don't think commodore has anything that anyone really wants
right
<DEEPTHOUGHT> People tend to think of such a buyout as something that would
save the Amiga. Truth is it would probably spell the end of it.
<J.COLLINS5> How many Zorro III slots can a good Buster in the 4000 handle?
<J.COLLINS5> Is the 4000T ever going to show up?
<J.COLLINS5> Why is there a 16 MB fast ram limit on the A4000 Logic board?
<J.COLLINS5> With the 4000T have the same low ram limit?
<J.COLLINS5> What's the max speed of a Seagate HD on the 1200's IDE drive
controler? is
<J.COLLINS5> 200Kps the best I can hope for?
<DEEPMODEM> now.
<J.COLLINS5> Do you know why it's almost immposible to find High Density Amiga
<J.COLLINS5> floppies? Why dealers aren't getting them?
<J.COLLINS5> What do you think of Emplant?
<J.COLLINS5> What would I have to do to become an Amiga developer?
<J.COLLINS5> Even if CD32 is a BIG hit, will CBM make enough off of it to get
back on
<J.COLLINS5> it's feet? Can they make what they need to compete in the
computer market
<J.COLLINS5> again?
<J.COLLINS5> Lot's of people who own CBM products have ideas on how to make
the company
<J.COLLINS5> a success. Why do you think Commodore never seems to listen to
these
<J.COLLINS5> ideas?
<J.COLLINS5> Do the users count at all to managment, or do they think of us a
suckers?
<J.COLLINS5>
<J.COLLINS5> And for Deepthought, what is the question to the answer 42. !)
<J.COLLINS5>
<J.COLLINS5> End!
<DEB> [Its him again] :) Thank goodness for scrollbacks. <Grin>
<J.COLLINS5> Hey if I had to type all that live we'ld be here all night. B)
<DEEPTHOUGHT> hmmm.
<DEB> You're thoughtful JCollins. :)
<DEEPTHOUGHT> 1. buster = I don't know. 2. 4000t probably, but it takes
$$$ to roll produce a new machine and there is precious little money
available...
<DEEPTHOUGHT> 3. 16 MB = I don't know. Costs, I suspect. 4. seagate = I don't
know
<DEEPTHOUGHT> 5. floppies = no 6. a nice implementation of AMAX 7. call CATS
to become a developer...
<DEEPTHOUGHT> 8. CD32 profit = good question. I don't really know.
<DEEPTHOUGHT> 9. because management thinks it knows better than anyone else -
including the engineers. There is a major case of 'not invented here' at CBM
...
<DEEPTHOUGHT> 10. suckers? no. consumers, yes
<DEEPTHOUGHT> 11. re: 42 the question can't be known if the answer already is.
<J.COLLINS5> On the floppy question. Can a regular Chinnon MS-DOS HDF be
modified to work on an Amiga?
<DEEPTHOUGHT> next
<DEEPTHOUGHT> I do not know the details of hardware stuff like that
<J.COLLINS5> Hokay! THat's it. Thanks.
<[Alberto] A.LOPEZGALL1> Why C= doesn't sell a low end Amiga model with an
emulator and Windoze ready-to-run, to expand its users' base? GA
<DEEPMODEM> If you're appealing to the Windows market, try to realize that for
the
<DEEPMODEM> most part, they don't want Amiga compatibility. In fact, they've
been
<DEEPMODEM> told that the Amiga's a crummy machine for so long that they'd
probably
<DEEPMODEM> like to avoid it. You can't expand your marketplace by luring pc
people
<DEEPMODEM> much without becoming a pc vendor. Deepthought, anthing to add?
<DEEPTHOUGHT> yes ..
<DEEPTHOUGHT> a low end Amiga wouldn't have the power to run Windows decently
fast and if you want Windows on such a machine a 386 or low end 486 will do
the job faster, better and easier. It's not really a market that makes sense.
<DEEPTHOUGHT> emulators require real power.
<DEEPTHOUGHT> next
<DEB> And the LAST question tonight is from K.WICKER...
<DEEPTHOUGHT> whew
<[DeepHurting] K.WICKER> 1) What does the CBM's US Marketing division do?
<[DeepHurting] K.WICKER> 2) And will the World of Commodore EVER return to
Chicago--the THIRD-LARGEST
<[DeepHurting] K.WICKER> city in the US? (Local unions FINALLY got the
message that their
<[DeepHurting] K.WICKER> short-term gouging of expos was costing them
long-term profits.)
<[DeepHurting] K.WICKER> 3) Also, will CBM finally STOP making INCOMPATIBLE
machines? Why doesn't CBM
<[DeepHurting] K.WICKER> just make ONE computer in a box and did add or
subtract different modules
<[DeepHurting] K.WICKER> (ala the various 2x00 machines)? (Then customers
could buy now and opt to
<[DeepHurting] K.WICKER> upgrade later.)
<[DeepHurting] K.WICKER> 4) Will CBM EVER release an EXTERNAL HIGH-density
FLOPPY drive?
<[DeepHurting] K.WICKER> 5) And do you know AMAZING COMPUTING's "Bandito"? >=->
<[DeepHurting] K.WICKER> 6) Oh, and will do this RTC again in a few months?
<[DeepHurting] K.WICKER>
<[DeepHurting] K.WICKER>
<K.WICKER> ga
<K.WICKER> hello?
<DEEPTHOUGHT> 1. draw a paycheck. 2. unknown. 3. probably not. It's not as
important as cost issues.
<DEEPTHOUGHT> 4. probably not 5. no 6. up to Deb
<DEEPTHOUGHT> dm ?
<DEEPMODEM> US Marketing hasn't done a commendable job, but they haven't had a
lot of
<DEB> Geeez, you mean I have to keep this digital voice disguiser and the
backlit screen for a while?
<DEEPMODEM> serious money over a long term to work with. It's hard to beat
the MSDOS
<K.WICKER> but incompatible machines ARE a cost issue
<DEB> I'll store it in /room 11 I guess. and we'll see.
<DEEPMODEM> tide. WOC in Chicago? Who knows? Maybe someday.
<DEEPMODEM> 3 isn't really a question.
<DEB> WOC isn't run by Commodore, remember. :)
<DEEPMODEM> 4 External HDD? Probably not anytime soon.
<DEEPMODEM> 5 Bandito? No. Thought I might, but then decided that it must be
someone else.
<DEEPMODEM> 6 Come back and do this again? Probably not.
<K.WICKER> Don't people resist buying machines incompatible with their CURRENT
PERIPHERALS?
<DEEPMODEM> And THAT is THAT.
<K.WICKER> THANKS!
<DEB> I think we pooped them out! Whew!
<DEEPMODEM> >yawn<
<K.WICKER> THANK YOU!
<DEEPMODEM> I've got to get to bed. Early rise tomorrow.
<DEB> Thank you both for being such good sports and for doing this tonight.
<J.COLLINS5> Nighters all!
<[DeepSpam] DEANF> Thanks for coming DeepModem, DeepThought
<[MyBook$29.95] RHETT> Wow. What a great job. Thanks, everyone.
<[Tony] A.ROSARIO4> boy, am I depressed....
<DEEPTHOUGHT> glad to help out (if that's what we did)
<[DeePeg] P.HERRINGTON> Thanks to both DeepModem and DeepThought!
<D.ETTORE> Thanks to everyone!
<[Just Zak!] WINTERLORN> It may have depressed me greatly, but thanks for
telling the truth guys. :)
<DEEPMODEM> >bow<
<[Tony] A.ROSARIO4> Thanks you two
<[DA'sBATS$20!] DENNYA> G'nite all. Please don't distrurb the wreaths next to
the fresh grave.
<CHRIS.P> Tony, I was too until I thought about it...
<[BuyMyManual2] BOB.ELLER> Thanks guys
<[Tony] A.ROSARIO4> Why
<[JohnY] J.YEAGER5> Peg, How about getting Irving in the next RTC!
<CHRIS.P> I don't think I'd be any happier if I went out and bought a 486
tomorrow.
<J.COLLINS5> You helped me dicide to skip the 4000/040 and buy that SGI Indy.
<[Tony] A.ROSARIO4> what thoughts?
<CHANTECLER> Its always better to know the truth
<[DeePeg] P.HERRINGTON> Heheh. I think he's busy, JohnY. :)
<DEB> As soon as I get it edited.
<[MyBook$29.95] RHETT> It was all about how I thought it was, unfortunately.
:-<
<[Russ] R.R.YOST> Is commodore's financial position improving? and is the
A4000 the end of the Amiga line? GALet's all pray that CD32 makes enough $$
that the Amiga can move forward next year!
<[DeepDanPizza] D.EDWARDS18> Well I am still buying Brilliance and Emplant
tommorow.
<[Just Zak!] WINTERLORN> SGI Indy. <LAUGH>
<[Tony] A.ROSARIO4> No, neither would I. I'll just be happy when Emplant can
emulate it...
<DEB> I've got someone capturing it for me. Tommorrow night, I hope.
<[DA'sBATS$20!] DENNYA> Just remember, folks: Things don't look good for new
Amigas, but there's still a software and third-party hardware industry out
there.
<[JohnY] J.YEAGER5> Yeah.... MAKING HIS OWN MONEY!
<[BuyMyManual!] JIM.MEYER> Good decision, Dan! ;-)
<DEEPMODEM> Time for bed. Goodbye, all.
<[Dan] D.EPP> Goodnite all, and thanks Deepthought & Deepmodem. :)
<[DA'sBATS$20!] DENNYA> I don't have anything on my PC that is as nice to use
as Brilliance, ImageFX, or Baud Bandit, for instance.
<CHRIS.P> heh, Zak, ain't that the truth
<[Ereth Akbe] C.AUGUSTINE2> Any PC you buy will be obsolete in 2 years. If the
Amiga lasts that long, you aren't out anything.
<DEB> Goodnight Deeps! Please make sure you use the secured exits. :)
<DEEPTHOUGHT> the Indy software prices will drop quite quickly, I predict.
<CHRIS.P> anything else is a step down from this 4000... <pats his black 4000>
<[BuyMyManual!] JIM.MEYER> Wait a week. Apple will be giving Centrises away
any day now... ;-)
<[DA'sBATS$20!] DENNYA> I do think a lot of people needed reality checks, and
this did it. But I just think some people got TOO depressed, from some of the
/sen's I got. Your Amiga's not going to puff up in blue smoke tomorrow.
<DEB> Thank you everyone!
Skip Sauls
Amiga any longer and I'm feeling depressed after reading it...
I may just have to pass on that CD32.
Skip Sauls
sk...@cy.cs.olemiss.edu
David Lebel
Skip Sauls (sk...@cy.cs.olemiss.edu) wrote:
: Was this posting real, or an elaborate hoax? I don't even own an
: Amiga any longer and I'm feeling depressed after reading it...
: I may just have to pass on that CD32.
Same thing here Skip. God I felt bad after reading it. I'm wondering
who the hell are DeepThought and DeepModem. However, I won't take what's
said in this for granted however.
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
David Lebel " Up, down, turn around, please don't let me hit the
leb...@IRO.UMontreal.CA ground. Tonight I think I'll walk alone, I'll find
Universite' de Montre'al my soul as I go home. " - New Order, "Temptation"
Paul Cardwell
CD32? I'll have to see it, to believe it. Hold on to your cash. 3DO may at
first be high priced, but should come down..remember AT&T is behind it amoung
the Amigas original design team (oh yeah!).
Paul
.___________________________________________________________________________.
| Arc Wave, real life: Paul Cardwell | INet Address: a...@judy.indstate.edu |
|----------\\-----//--------------------------------------------------------|
| ---- \\\^ ^/// "Amiga, the wild side of power computing." ---- |
| ----- \\|.|// Amiga,OS/2,Unix,C Programmer ----- |
`------------\\-//----------------------------------------------------------'
sincl...@cobra.uni.edu
> Amiga any longer and I'm feeling depressed after reading it...
>
> I may just have to pass on that CD32.
Even Marc Barret was mentioned. The two insiders said he was right most of the
time in his statements.
C= is one fucked up company.. I hope my A1200 and monitor does not need
servicing anytime soon..
>
> Skip Sauls
> sk...@cy.cs.olemiss.edu
Peter Co...@uni.edu
"Still waiting for the A1200 Emplant"
Buddha
David Lebel <leb...@IRO.UMontreal.CA> wrote:
>On 24 Aug 1993 14:04:46 GMT,
>Skip Sauls (sk...@cy.cs.olemiss.edu) wrote:
>
>: Amiga any longer and I'm feeling depressed after reading it...
>
>: I may just have to pass on that CD32.
>
>who the hell are DeepThought and DeepModem. However, I won't take what's
>said in this for granted however.
>
I hear that. Whoever is behind it, it either A) is a loooong way to go
to be a hoax, or B) is a pretty sad pair of employees that Commodore
has on their hands. The way I see it, if you're doing any
design/engineering work for C= at this point, you've got to be a
little more devoted than that.
David ;o
>Was this posting real, or an elaborate hoax? I don't even own an
>Amiga any longer and I'm feeling depressed after reading it...
It was depressing as hell. The Marc B. section must really burn a lot
advocates!
For some reason, the fact the the networking software was basically
finished and working, and still was not going to be part of 3.1 bugged
me the most. (although several other things sucked: No DSP, AAA,
external HDFD, etc... anytime soon).
It is obvious the C- needs money, and can probably make it by dumping
out low-end products ala A600, CD-32. I consider all high end AMigas
un-officially orphaned. Look out for the Amiga-64 :(
>I may just have to pass on that CD32.
I dunno, it probably the one product that will receive support and
software. Look's like CD32 is the new baby at C-, and the Amiga is
done.
>Skip Sauls
>sk...@cy.cs.olemiss.edu
/ Amiga /// | U.S.C. Trojans | O Bar | David Leslie \
| /// | Fight On! | E O | 'MrShoop' |
| \\\/// | -- | Meu | jpd...@netcom.com |
\ \XX/ A1000 | Go Kings! | Lar! | dle...@scf.usc.edu /
David ;o
>
>I hear that. Whoever is behind it, it either A) is a loooong way to go
>to be a hoax, or B) is a pretty sad pair of employees that Commodore
>has on their hands. The way I see it, if you're doing any
>design/engineering work for C= at this point, you've got to be a
>little more devoted than that.
That's a pretty sad rationalization! You gonna complain about your
stewardess' bad attitude as the plane crashes?
'Madame, your attitude isn't helping matters, stop screaming, and
bring me a Martini!' :)
Scott Ashdown
In a previous article, than...@titan.ucs.umass.edu (Buddha) says:
>>: Was this posting real, or an elaborate hoax? I don't even own an
>>: Amiga any longer and I'm feeling depressed after reading it...
>>
>>: I may just have to pass on that CD32.
>>
>> Same thing here Skip. God I felt bad after reading it. I'm wondering
>>who the hell are DeepThought and DeepModem. However, I won't take what's
>>said in this for granted however.
>
>I hear that. Whoever is behind it, it either A) is a loooong way to go
>to be a hoax, or B) is a pretty sad pair of employees that Commodore
>has on their hands. The way I see it, if you're doing any
>design/engineering work for C= at this point, you've got to be a
>little more devoted than that.
The way that things were being answered, neither of those guys seemed to be much
into design/engineering (too many "I don't knows" when it came to technical
questions). They aren't top management, either, of course. What they had to say
isn't much different from all of the conversations I've had with friends about
C=, except that we keep coming up with solutions... :)
My feelings:
When I worked for the Canadian military, I found that talking to an officer and
a non-com (to use American terminology) gave totally different views of the
function of the organization. In addition, with the departments so focused on
their own interests, talking to two people doing exactly the same job in
different areas again yielded opposing viewpoints in many areas.
What I'm saying is that we're taking Commodore's pulse through a brick. We heard
from two people who told us that they know little about hardware and marketing,
and who told us that they weren't management. Their views of C='s current
situtation may not necessarily reflect the way things really are. I'm not saying
that what we've read isn't true, but that it IS purely speculative second-hand
information. Yes it came from Commodore employees, but I've met a few who didn't
even know the Amiga wasn't a PC clone! Comments welcome, but no flames please.
(Marc, I don't need "You're all in denial!", okay?)
--
Scott Ashdown | Carleton University Transputer Lab
Computer Systems | ash...@sce.carleton.ca
Engineering Year IV | ac...@freenet.carleton.ca
Buddha
>than...@titan.ucs.umass.edu (Buddha) writes:
>>
>>I hear that. Whoever is behind it, it either A) is a loooong way to go
>>to be a hoax, or B) is a pretty sad pair of employees that Commodore
>
>stewardess' bad attitude as the plane crashes?
>
Rationalization ? No. Maybe its just that I'm not jaded enough yet,
but I would think that the employees of a company should at least
appear to be optimistic about their company's situation. Your analogy
is not 100% applicable. The stewardess is going to die. The C=
employee can't benefit from such depressing conversation, since it
will only hurt sales, and thus cost them their jobs. They went as far
as to say the amiga wouldn't be around in a few years. Would someone
whose job depends on sales say this ? Only if they are stupid or
really, really honest.
This is why the conversation is questionable. Perhaps ex-employees.
Perhaps a Marc Barrett scam ;) Perhaps really honest insiders.
There is also the question of NDA. A while ago everyone was shouting
"NDA ! You're lying !" Now what ? Everyone takes this post as
scripture ?
Sure, go ahead, call me what you will (blind, maybe ?), but I will
continue to approach this posting with cautious skepticism.
David Lebel
sincl...@cobra.uni.edu wrote:
: Even Marc Barret was mentioned. The two insiders said he was right most of
: the time in his statements.
Maybe one insider was in fact, Marc Barrett it self, in his crusade
to eradicate the Amiga from the planet Earth?
David Lebel
David ;o (jpd...@netcom.com) wrote:
: 'Madame, your attitude isn't helping matters, stop screaming, and
: bring me a Martini!' :)
ROFL. You made my day David!
Jeff Bevis
>
>I hear that. Whoever is behind it, it either A) is a loooong way to go
>to be a hoax, or B) is a pretty sad pair of employees that Commodore
>has on their hands. The way I see it, if you're doing any
>design/engineering work for C= at this point, you've got to be a
>little more devoted than that.
>
for several years to build something great (I'm thinking OS here more
than anything), and then watching as your company repeatedly stumbles,
blows huge wads of cash in failed marketing & products (A570, A600, etc),
and then begins to eliminate your skilled coworkers.
That's enough to make me depressed, and I don't even work for C=. Don't
think I'd want to, either. Sad but true.
By the way, what are the casualties since May? I've been off the net
for some time, so I've missed most current events. All I know is I've
come back online only to find (to my horror) that Mike Sinz & Chris
Green and no longer at Westchester, and God knows who else is gone/going.
(Sorry if this is wrong info -- but I think it's true. :-( )
Aigggghhh!
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"My God man... We've become a tourist attraction!" - Babylon 5
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeff Bevis be...@ecn.purdue.edu
David Navas
>My feelings:
>even know the Amiga wasn't a PC clone! Comments welcome, but no flames please.
>(Marc, I don't need "You're all in denial!", okay?)
Okay, -I-'ll say it.
You're in heavy, deep denial. The Amiga as the computer we all know and
love was, in reality, still-born. Things that occurred during that period
of time ensured that Cmdre would never be able to get over its "64"
mentality.
If there truly is to be no new high-end, we need to find a platform and
develop a decent OS for it (haven't found a good combination yet).
David C. Navas dna...@us.oracle.com
Working for, but not speaking on behalf of, Oracle Corp.
David Navas
>Was this posting real, or an elaborate hoax? I don't even own an
I don't know how "real" it was, and I couldn't confirm the realities of
several products (AAA, DSP), but I can say it pretty well describes
reality in PA.
>I may just have to pass on that CD32.
Skip, you need to listen to me closer :)
If the only reason you're buying the CD32 is because it might help a AAA
effort, or some other bizarre reason, then you need to step back.
If the machine has good games, and is worth it, buy it. Otherwise don't
bother. Cmdre understands us as consumers, and if we start behaving like
rational consumers then they'll start to understand what machines make us
happy, and what machines don't. If we continue to buy whatever piece of
junk they release, then they'll continue to think that making junk is
"good enough". Witness the successs of the A600, for instance ;)
Doesn't this logic sound hauntingly familiar?
sincl...@cobra.uni.edu
> On 24 Aug 93 13:47:20 -0500,
> sincl...@cobra.uni.edu wrote:
>
> : Even Marc Barret was mentioned. The two insiders said he was right most of
> : the time in his statements.
>
> Maybe one insider was in fact, Marc Barrett it self, in his crusade
> to eradicate the Amiga from the planet Earth?
>
Well maybe it was IRV and ALI who wanted to get their jollies?
>
> --
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> David Lebel " Up, down, turn around, please don't let me hit the
> leb...@IRO.UMontreal.CA ground. Tonight I think I'll walk alone, I'll find
> Universite' de Montre'al my soul as I go home. " - New Order, "Temptation"
Peter Sinclair-Day University of Northern Iowa Cedar Falls, Iowa
"The Harvard of the MidWest"
David ;o
>In article <jpdavidC...@netcom.com>, David ;o <jpd...@netcom.com> wrote:
>>
>>That's a pretty sad rationalization! You gonna complain about your
>>stewardess' bad attitude as the plane crashes?
>>
>
>Rationalization ? No. Maybe its just that I'm not jaded enough yet,
>but I would think that the employees of a company should at least
>appear to be optimistic about their company's situation. Your analogy
>is not 100% applicable. The stewardess is going to die. The C=
>employee can't benefit from such depressing conversation, since it
>will only hurt sales, and thus cost them their jobs. They went as far
>as to say the amiga wouldn't be around in a few years. Would someone
>whose job depends on sales say this ? Only if they are stupid or
>really, really honest.
Well, the stewardess will die, these guys stand to lose their jobs, if
not soon, then before to long. They have probably seen there friends
fired, not to mention the Amiga screwed.
>This is why the conversation is questionable. Perhaps ex-employees.
>Perhaps a Marc Barrett scam ;) Perhaps really honest insiders.
you are right, there is no way to know if it is legit. It just rings
true to me.
>There is also the question of NDA. A while ago everyone was shouting
>"NDA ! You're lying !" Now what ? Everyone takes this post as
>scripture ?
>
>Sure, go ahead, call me what you will (blind, maybe ?), but I will
>continue to approach this posting with cautious skepticism.
I think it is a-okay to approach with skeptisism, or even to dismiss
all unamed sources as BS. It wouldn't bother me to see people say the
post is BS. It just seems like a weak rationalization to accept the
post as legit, but say the employees are disloyal, or have bad
attitudes. Employees are. 99% of the time, reflections of there
employers, and the employment environment.
steven joseph chmura
>Peter Sinclair-Day University of Northern Iowa Cedar Falls, Iowa
>
> "The Harvard of the MidWest"
Is this a joke? I thought nothing good came out of Iowa except for
baseball fields?
:)
--
________________________________________________________________________________Steven Chmura University of Chicago Medical School(MII)
"Given enough time, the impossible becomes probable, and the probable
inevitable.." -George Wald, "On the Origins of Life"
"Genes into colon ... we are going to cure colon cancer"
Harv R Laser
2. They didn't know answers to marketing questions
3. They took the 5th on a lot of other answers
4. The janitor was fired.
5. The receptionist was fired.
Therefore, barring anyone stepping forward and identifying these
two, I conclude you just witnessed a long expensive Q&A session
with Commodore's former janitor and receptionist.
Matti Rintala
On Wed, 25 Aug 1993 00:30:55 GMT,
dna...@oracle.uucp (David Navas) said:
-> If there truly is to be no new high-end, we need to find a platform and
-> develop a decent OS for it (haven't found a good combination yet).
That's more or less what came to my mind, too. I mean, I have an A2000
with 68030/25MHz and I'm going to buy an A4000 in a few weeks. After
reading this "Insider Truth", I naturally panicked. :-)
After a few hours, I started thinking "OK, what computer should it be,
then?" I couldn't find an answer (as Macs are out of question here in
Finland and PCs aren't definitely what I want). So I'll get my A4000,
anyway.
And what does it matter if Amiga will only last a few years more
(which it will definitely do, at least here in Europe)? Somehow I'm
pretty sure the Intel based machines have the same future (as was said
earlier, any 486 bought now is obsolete in 2 years, NT is being ported
to other architectures etc.). In my opinion 68060 and Pentium show
that there seems to be no way to REALLY speed up these processor
families. If it'll be RISCs, ok for me. But it'll take some years.
Besides, we Amiga fans have never got anything from Commodore (except
the machine, of course). Third parties have always done the rest. So
even if C= is no longer interested in Amiga (if it ever has been),
let's hope third parties will still support it. And if we for some
reason need a program from the PC world, there'll be PC Emplant
(it'll propably multitask with AmigaDOS, so we don't lose that
either).
-> David C. Navas dna...@us.oracle.com
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Matti Rintala bi...@cs.tut.fi
*******************************************************************************
"Time is a drug. Too much of it kills you."(from Small Gods by Terry Pratchett)
Mike Farren
>Was this posting real, or an elaborate hoax? I don't even own an
>Amiga any longer and I'm feeling depressed after reading it...
Well, I don't know if it was a hoax, but am almost certain that if
those folks were "insiders", they weren't very far inside...
Data: they were talking to Genie from Fresno, California. Several *real*
Commodore folks were logged on at the same time, from various West Chester
area locations. Who would have been in Fresno? And why? I'm suspicious...
Data: I know most of the people from Commodore engineering fairly well.
These folks did *not* sound like people I knew. It's not real positive
evidence, but still - I would have expected a more recognizable "voice"
from the folks that I knew.
Data: Whoever they were, they were pretty ill-informed. There are things
which I know for a fact, and which anyone in engineering would have known,
that got a "I'm not really sure" from them - and these weren't things
that required judgement calls, but undeniable certainties.
Data: notice one thing: no verifiable hard facts. None. All kinds of
speculation, no reality. If these were, in fact, Commodore insiders,
working under a cloak of secrecy, then it makes no sense that they should
not have given away the store. For example, there was much made about
the people who have left Commodore. But there were no names named,
and I would have expected that, at the very least. After all, if these
guys were "undercover", then why not? Without hard fact, they're in
no more of a credible position than Marc Barrett.
Data: no one, and I repeat, NO one at Commodore when I was there, would
have ever said that Marc was right about anything. It's a matter of
principle :-)
I would counsel very strongly against taking much of anything in that
posting on strict face value. There are a lot of things which are looking
bad for Commodore. They might, indeed, not be around for a whole lot
longer, and perhaps we should start thinking about what to do if they're
not. But don't take this posting as evidence of that - it just doesn't
hold up.
--
Michael J. Farren far...@netcom.com
Unconnected with Commodore for almost two years, now!
David ;o
I think any receptionist would have known the answers, therefore they
must have been engineers, or executives. :)
David Meiklejohn
>Was this posting real, or an elaborate hoax? I don't even own an
>Amiga any longer and I'm feeling depressed after reading it...
Same here. If RTG and AAA really are dead... :-(
>I may just have to pass on that CD32.
Why? The article was depressing to me because it makes sense.
Commodore decided that they're not a computer company, so cut PCs and
"computerish" Amiga developments like networking, DSP, RTG, AAA, 060, RISC.
Instead concentrate on making CD^32 a success, and follow on in that
direction if it is.
As such, I think you're quite safe buying a CD^32. If that's where the
focus is, we really will see the FMV module quite soon.
What isn't safe is buying an Amiga. I'm feeling much like I was last year,
when I was giving them until Christmas to come up with something, before I
bought a clone with OS/2. I may still do that, but I'm not _quite_ that
desperate. Not yet. And I may also buy a CD^32 to play with.
--
David Meiklejohn (dav...@dpi.qld.gov.au)
Robert J. Taylor
>In article <CCA87...@freenet.carleton.ca> ac...@Freenet.carleton.ca (Scott Ashdown) writes:
>>My feelings:
>>even know the Amiga wasn't a PC clone! Comments welcome, but no flames please.
>>(Marc, I don't need "You're all in denial!", okay?)
>
>Okay, -I-'ll say it.
>You're in heavy, deep denial. The Amiga as the computer we all know and
>love was, in reality, still-born. Things that occurred during that period
>of time ensured that Cmdre would never be able to get over its "64"
>mentality.
The way I see it, Commodore never really made up it's mind as to
whether the Amiga WAS the next C-64, or if it was supposed to be a
productivity computer of some kind. They didn't have the "vision thing".
Lack of that is DEADLY in the business world. If Commodore hadn't had
such a fundamentally great computer to work with, they would never have
been solvent after 1987.
Jeez, I've only been reading this group for 2-3 days now (since I
posted my original message), and already I'm depressed as hell. The angst
is so thick around here you could cut it with a knife and serve it in a
sandwich. I've been telling people since '90 that this would happen if
Commodore didn't sharpen it's focus a lot, and now it appears to be
happening. Doesn't make it any easier to take, though.
Marc N. Barrett
>By the way, what are the casualties since May? I've been off the net
>for some time, so I've missed most current events. All I know is I've
>come back online only to find (to my horror) that Mike Sinz & Chris
>Green and no longer at Westchester, and God knows who else is gone/going.
>(Sorry if this is wrong info -- but I think it's true. :-( )
>
>Aigggghhh!
Basically, Commodore eliminated 50% to 60% of their engineering department.
Networking and PC clone development are gone altogether. CATS suffered
enough hits that AmigaMail is now dead, and there likely will never be any
ROM Kernal manuals for version 3.x of the Amiga OS. This is just the beginning
even. Not a single part of Commodore engineering wasn't hit really hard.
The reason for the hits at Commodore engineering is that Commodore posted
$288 million in losses for the first three quarters of fiscal year 1993
(Commodore's fisc years run from July 1 to June 31). Commodore could post
even more losses for the year, because their fourth-quarter financial results
have not yet been released. In addition to this, Commodore's sales for
the first three quarters of FY1993 were down $200 million from the same
three quarters of FY1992. This is an over 20% drop in sales over one year.
+++++++ Marc Barrett -MB- | e-mail: bar...@iastate.edu
++++ "I was reading through some of the message base here recently and
++ someone suggested that CBM is not a computer company. This is pretty
+ accurate." -- a Commodore engineer in a discussion on GEnie
Marc N. Barrett
>On 24 Aug 93 13:47:20 -0500,
>sincl...@cobra.uni.edu wrote:
>
>: Even Marc Barret was mentioned. The two insiders said he was right most of
>: the time in his statements.
>
To be honest, I have never used GEnie in my life. In fact, I have even
been too busy to read the transcript in question, so I haven't even yet
seen what people are talking about when they say I was mentioned in the
transcript. (I read just enough of the transcript earlier today to find
a really juicy line to add to my sig)
Jeremy Reimer
about some things!
Gee, even _I_ thought that the Amiga had a brighter future than that...
--
Jeremy Reimer aka | "I am afraid of the Jaguar." | OS/2 2.1:
The Jaguar! | - Raist in c.s.a.a | It's fun,fun,fun
7th level Kibologist | (severely out of context) | in the sun,sun,sun!
M Smyth
> Basically, Commodore eliminated 50% to 60% of their engineering department.
> Networking and PC clone development are gone altogether. CATS suffered
That's really strange Marc, since in comp.sys.amiga.graphics there are
several posts from;
Ken Dyke - Amiga Networking at Commodore, West Chester
It's under the "Re: QuickTime Impressions" thread if anyone wants to
check.
Another point to be made is that PC clone -sales- have not stopped,
C= just source components from the far-east and put their brand name on
them. C= are still quite a large percentage of British/European PC
sales ( I think in the top ten, but I can't find the article ).
> enough hits that AmigaMail is now dead, and there likely will never be any
Last I heard ( two days ago from developer support ), AmigaMail is still
running, mind you developer support have been wrong before ;).
Marc, I've noticed you have started to use the phrase 'likely will
never' in most of your posts.
> ROM Kernal manuals for version 3.x of the Amiga OS.
As noted above, the phrase 'likely will never' infers that this is pure
conjecture on your part.
> ++++ "I was reading through some of the message base here recently and
> ++ someone suggested that CBM is not a computer company. This is pretty
> + accurate." -- a Commodore engineer in a discussion on GEnie
^^^^^^^^
I've only read this post briefly, but I can't remember it saying that
the C= insiders were engineers. Yet another MB 'fact' appears out of
nothing.
Martin &
Knut Fjellheim
sstate.edu!cy.cs.olemiss.edu!skip
|> Was this posting real, or an elaborate hoax? I don't even own an
|> Amiga any longer and I'm feeling depressed after reading it...
|>
|> I may just have to pass on that CD32.
|>
|> Skip Sauls
|> sk...@cy.cs.olemiss.edu
|>
Its a hoax! Don't believe everything you read! There is a bunch of boneheads
out there who just loves to discredit the Amiga. C= DID do a poor job
after the Amiga was initially designed. WB 1.2 & 1.3 were nothing but
bugfixes. WB 2.0 - 3.0 is a whole new chapter in Amiga history. Do you
really think that C= would spend so much time and effort developing
stuff like datatypes, BOOPSI, locale, AGA graphics, etc. if they did not
care for the A1200/4000? Do you know how much time C= must have spent
designing/implementing/testing this stuff?
Don't worry! I have personally watched WB3.1 networking capabilities in
real life! I have seen one Amiga use another Amigas HD just as if it was
an internal HD, and not an external one! This IS networking. Testing
takes time, but WB 3.1 will be out soon (before X-mas, I hope, but who
knows?) Be patient because it is better to have a late quality system,
than a premature system full of bugs!
So to whomever wrote the original article: take it and put it up your a#¤&%&..
Knut 'Silver Dragon' Fjellheim
knu...@babbage.hsn.no
sincl...@cobra.uni.edu
> In article <1993Aug24.2...@cobra.uni.edu> sincl...@cobra.uni.edu writes:
>>Peter Sinclair-Day University of Northern Iowa Cedar Falls, Iowa
>>
>> "The Harvard of the MidWest"
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Is this a joke? I thought nothing good came out of Iowa except for
> baseball fields?
>
> :)
I thought it was corn and the Iowa Hawkeyes. You are showing your true
ignorance.
>
>
>
> --
> ________________________________________________________________________________Steven Chmura University of Chicago Medical School(MII)
> "Given enough time, the impossible becomes probable, and the probable
> inevitable.." -George Wald, "On the Origins of Life"
> "Genes into colon ... we are going to cure colon cancer"
Peter Sinclair-Day University of Northern Iowa Cedar Falls, Iowa
"Harvard of the MidWest"
"Oh Buster. your fired"
Peter Sj|str|m
>sk...@cy.cs.olemiss.edu (Skip Sauls) writes:
>Data: Whoever they were, they were pretty ill-informed. There are things
> which I know for a fact, and which anyone in engineering would have known,
> that got a "I'm not really sure" from them - and these weren't things
> that required judgement calls, but undeniable certainties.
I have 100% true inside info about some things in CBM. Reading
the text posted earlier here showed at least one *error*. I don't say
these people were not CBM people, but they did get at least one fact wrong,
which proves that you should not beleive everything they said, even
though I think their general view of CBM and Amiga were correct, bare in
mind they were very negative too...
>Data: no one, and I repeat, NO one at Commodore when I was there, would
> have ever said that Marc was right about anything. It's a matter of
> principle :-)
Marc's principle is to never say anyone else is right and he
is wrong and to never answer questions which can lead to an answer that
will prove him wrong. :/
>I would counsel very strongly against taking much of anything in that
>posting on strict face value. There are a lot of things which are looking
>bad for Commodore. They might, indeed, not be around for a whole lot
>longer, and perhaps we should start thinking about what to do if they're
>not. But don't take this posting as evidence of that - it just doesn't
>hold up.
Well, I find the Amiga viable as home computer and as platform
in two coming TV and video studio projects I will take part in. We will
use the Amiga and Opalvision :).
/Peter
Skip Sauls
>>Was this posting real, or an elaborate hoax? I don't even own an
>
>I don't know how "real" it was, and I couldn't confirm the realities of
>several products (AAA, DSP), but I can say it pretty well describes
>reality in PA.
Well, we've seen things like this before, and Commodore itself is the
only one that can do any real damage control. I wonder what the odds
are of them issuing an official reply to this one.
>>I may just have to pass on that CD32.
>
>Skip, you need to listen to me closer :)
>If the only reason you're buying the CD32 is because it might help a AAA
>effort, or some other bizarre reason, then you need to step back.
No, that's not the reason, I'm interested in getting something that I
can play around with at home, and would prefer something that has the
potential of becoming a "real computer" should I choose. I'd also
like to evaluate one for potential use as a kiosk base.
>If the machine has good games, and is worth it, buy it. Otherwise don't
>bother. Cmdre understands us as consumers, and if we start behaving like
>rational consumers then they'll start to understand what machines make us
>happy, and what machines don't. If we continue to buy whatever piece of
>junk they release, then they'll continue to think that making junk is
>"good enough". Witness the successs of the A600, for instance ;)
Wow, you seem to be implying that Amiga users are lemmings. I thought
Clone users had a lock on that title. :-)
>Doesn't this logic sound hauntingly familiar?
Yeah, but some of us never learn. :-)
On a related note, I'd like to suggest that anyone considering
defecting from the Amiga get a system as described below:
AMD 486 - so you can be harassed by the Intel owners
Gravis Ultrasound - so you can be defensive about better hardware
OS/2 - so you can feel smug in using an unpopular multitasking OS
Diamond SVGA - so you can complain about the lack of support
:-)
Skip Sauls
sk...@cy.cs.olemiss.edu
Mike Bandy
>On Wed, 25 Aug 1993 00:30:55 GMT,
>dna...@oracle.uucp (David Navas) said:
>-> If there truly is to be no new high-end, we need to find a platform and
>-> develop a decent OS for it (haven't found a good combination yet).
>That's more or less what came to my mind, too. I mean, I have an A2000
>with 68030/25MHz and I'm going to buy an A4000 in a few weeks. After
>reading this "Insider Truth", I naturally panicked. :-)
>After a few hours, I started thinking "OK, what computer should it be,
>then?" I couldn't find an answer (as Macs are out of question here in
>Finland and PCs aren't definitely what I want). So I'll get my A4000,
>anyway.
What about the NextStep $299 offer? Even less - with free 3.1 upgrade -
for us educational types (with restrictions like not selling anything we
write, but that's ok). Or Indy - especially if Impulse is going to port
Imagine to the SGI platform. I, too, was thinking of a new Amiga but I
think I'll keep the checkbook closed for a few months and see what happens.
--
Mike Bandy ba...@aplcomm.jhuapl.edu
Johns Hopkins University / Applied Physics Laboratory
David C. Navas
>In article <88...@cup.portal.com> Ha...@cup.portal.com (Harv R Laser) writes:
>>Therefore, barring anyone stepping forward and identifying these
>>two, I conclude you just witnessed a long expensive Q&A session
>>with Commodore's former janitor and receptionist.
>I think any receptionist would have known the answers, therefore they
>must have been engineers, or executives. :)
"C= Insiders and marketing whizzes, Irving Gould and Mehdi Ali, take on the
Amiga Fanatic Community -- chief rivals for ownership of the company known as
Commodore...."
Grin. Harv -- pretty accurate description as janitor and receptionist. Quick,
which is which? :)
It was pretty much implied on irc that this wasn't all its cracked up to be.
And on that, I was definitely wrong with my first impressions.
Nonetheless, the Amiga -is- in serious trouble. Let's hope a mircle happens.
Best wishes folks!
--
David Navas ja...@netcom.com
dna...@us.oracle.com
"Talent develops in quiet places; character, in the full current of human life"
Mike Rogers
>Another point to be made is that PC clone -sales- have not stopped,
>C= just source components from the far-east and put their brand name on
>them. C= are still quite a large percentage of British/European PC
>sales ( I think in the top ten, but I can't find the article ).
I saw an article in a newspaper last week that C= sales of PCs last year
had dropped to this figure, while market unit sales had risen by nearly 20%.
They are just ahead of DELL in the Top 10.
--
Mike Rogers, #3, 44 Westland##EveryoneHasTheRightToFreedomOfOpinionAndExpressio
Row, Dublin 2, Ireland FNORD##nThisRightIncludesFreedomToHoldOpinionsWithoutInt
##############################erferenceAndToSeekReceiveAndImpartInformationAndI
deasThroughAnyMediaAndRegardlessOfFrontiers..#10 UN Declaration of Human Rights
Matti Rintala
On Wed, 25 Aug 1993 15:55:50 GMT,
ba...@netnews.jhuapl.edu (Mike Bandy) said:
-> bi...@cs.tut.fi (Matti Rintala) writes:
>After a few hours, I started thinking "OK, what computer should it be,
>then?" I couldn't find an answer (as Macs are out of question here in
>Finland and PCs aren't definitely what I want). So I'll get my A4000,
>anyway.
-> for us educational types (with restrictions like not selling anything we
-> Imagine to the SGI platform. I, too, was thinking of a new Amiga but I
-> think I'll keep the checkbook closed for a few months and see what happens.
Sorry, but I think either of those choices don't sound very appealing. I
don't know anyone to use NextStep here (and I want an existing user
group so that I can get and write PD/freeware/shareware software).
Indy's problem is its price, which is too high for me. Not to mention
the price of the software. Indy would be good choice if I was only
interested in graphics and would have more money.
-> Mike Bandy ba...@aplcomm.jhuapl.edu
LaMonte Koop
Except that note above you have made the assumption that it was an
engineer who made that comment. Fairly typical of you to make just enough
assumptions to make your statements seem more worthwhile. The above is
basically misrepresentation.
Now, as for the transcript, several good points have been made which
seem to indicate that what was said on it really needs to be taken with a
grain of salt. The statements within do not sound like ANY Commodore engineer
that I am aware of. They were too vague. Second of all, a point was made
that no one in engineering or any of the technical support areas would have
said that Marc Barrett was "right" about anything--well, this is largely true.
Marc is generally considered to be a joke, a whiner, and some of his posts
have even been put on bulletin boards to be used as aside humor and laughed at.
While Marc may occasionally have a point to make, he doesn't know how to
express them in an intelligent, non-belligerant way. The fact that he twists
things to suit his own argument as well tends to nullify any credibility he
had.
I do have my suspicions as to who those two individuals on GEnie were...
they sound like two people I am familiar with. If this is the case, the
statements there REALLY need to be taken with a grain of salt -- the two
I am familiar with are basically disgruntled with a number of things and do
voice opinions towards the negative in a way that makes them seems as fact --
much as Marc does.
----------------------------------------
LaMonte Koop -- SCS Electrical/Computer Engineering
Internet: lk...@tigger.stcloud.msus.edu -OR- f00...@kanga.stcloud.msus.edu
"Performance is in the eye of the beholder"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
LaMonte Koop
>In article <1993Aug24.2...@en.ecn.purdue.edu> be...@en.ecn.purdue.edu (Jeff Bevis) writes:
>>By the way, what are the casualties since May? I've been off the net
>>for some time, so I've missed most current events. All I know is I've
>>come back online only to find (to my horror) that Mike Sinz & Chris
>>Green and no longer at Westchester, and God knows who else is gone/going.
>>(Sorry if this is wrong info -- but I think it's true. :-( )
>>
>>Aigggghhh!
>
> Basically, Commodore eliminated 50% to 60% of their engineering department.
>Networking and PC clone development are gone altogether. CATS suffered
>enough hits that AmigaMail is now dead, and there likely will never be any
>ROM Kernal manuals for version 3.x of the Amiga OS. This is just the beginning
>even. Not a single part of Commodore engineering wasn't hit really hard.
Well, AmigaMail isn't "dead". Secondly, I don't know where you managed
to pull "there will be no ROM Kernel manulas for version 3.x of the Amiga OS".
You know..this post started off in a fairly factual way..then degenerated when
you started spouting opinions and ideas as fact.
David Navas
>That's really strange Marc, since in comp.sys.amiga.graphics there are
>several posts from;
> Ken Dyke - Amiga Networking at Commodore, West Chester
I asked him about this last night on irc (or last morning your time ;)).
chfn was a privileged command, apparently. It is no longer. If you notice
his signature in the same articles you'll find out what he's really,
ostensibly, working on.
Look, if you were C= and you had to choose between a multimedia/rtg programmer
and a network programmer, where would your priorities be? Given the choice,
I think they made the right one. I just wish the choice didn't have to be
made.
>Another point to be made is that PC clone -sales- have not stopped,
>C= just source components from the far-east and put their brand name on
's what I heard too.
>Last I heard ( two days ago from developer support ), AmigaMail is still
>running, mind you developer support have been wrong before ;).
Last AmigaMail was delivered this month.
>Marc, I've noticed you have started to use the phrase 'likely will
>never' in most of your posts.
Thank goodness, at least he's stating it as opinion/possibility rather than
fact.
Tim Ciceran
>>I hear that. Whoever is behind it, it either A) is a loooong way to go
>>to be a hoax, or B) is a pretty sad pair of employees that Commodore
>That's a pretty sad rationalization! You gonna complain about your
>stewardess' bad attitude as the plane crashes?
No, but I tend to agree. Being realistic is one thing, but being fatalistic
is another. Either way, it's painfully obvious that those accountable for
the current situation aren't accepting the responsibility. I don't believe
for an instant that Commodore couldn't remain viable in today's market -
but for that to happen two liabilities must be turfed - Irving Gould and
Mehdi Ali.
Which reminds me. AC had an excellent overview of the current situation
in their September issue. This is a great opportunity to send out a deluge
of letters calling for action. It may ultimately prove futile, but the
Phil Robinson press coverage certainly stirred up quite a commotion.
Anyone else willing put their money where their mouth is?
--
Harv R Laser
>Data: they were talking to Genie from Fresno, California. Several *real*
> Commodore folks were logged on at the same time, from various West Chester
> area locations. Who would have been in Fresno? And why? I'm suspicious...
>
Note too that Deb Christensen, the sysop of the Amiga area on genie
lives in Fresno too. Although I've never been a sysop on genie I know
enough about commercial online services to know how easy these
kinds of "origination point" signature lists can be tweaked to make
it look like anyone is calling from anywhere you want to make it look
like they're calling from. Two people could've been sitting in her
house, on two other phone lines, on two other computers. Or two people
could've used PCPursuit to dial into the Fresno outdial and from
there into Genie. Or they could've dialed long distance from wherever
they were to Genie's Fresno network number and she paid for their
phone charges. Or SHE could've been typing "their" responses herself.
The Wizard of Oz hid behind a curtain. NewTek used to hide the
prototype Toaster behind a curtain.
P.T. Barnum was right.
Hal G. Meeks
>>>I may just have to pass on that CD32.
>I'm interested in getting something that I
>can play around with at home, and would prefer something that has the
>potential of becoming a "real computer" should I choose. I'd also
>like to evaluate one for potential use as a kiosk base.
Then, by all means, buy one. It's become pretty clear to me that this is
where C= is going to concentrate most of their money and efforts for the
next year.
I'm very interested in 3D0, and the Jaguar, but I don't see either of these
systems taking off immediately, if ever. The 3D0's price will have to come
down, and the Jaguar will have to actually ship, and sign up some
developers. All of this takes time, as in a couple of years. By then, both
of them will be facing competition from whatever SGI/Nintendo and Sega come
up with. I'll make my choice then. I have no problems with upgrading a game
system every two to three years. While I'm waiting, I can enjoy my CD32.
I've been wanting a CDROM system for some time, and have come close to
buying a CDTV once or twice. The CD32 makes a lot of sense right now. It's a
great mixture of high tech and low tech. It's cheap. Development systems
are available for it right now, and they don't cost a lot. As a result, I
expect to see a decent amount of software for it before Christmas.
>On a related note, I'd like to suggest that anyone considering
>defecting from the Amiga get a system as described below:
Thanks Skip, but I think I'll wait a bit. I don't want to be locked into a
DOS enviroment, OS2 is still touch and go, and Macs cost too much (hardware
and software). I'll give it another year, and then look at what is out
there. Meanwhile, I think I'll take that money I was going to spend on a 486
system,add some memory and a bigger HD to my 3000, and buy a CD32 to play
the latest games on. I'm not giving up just yet.
--hal
--
====================================================================
]]h...@unity.ncsu.edu "nEVer MINd tHe bOLloCks, HeRE'S tHE AmIGa"[[
====================================================================
David Navas
>only one that can do any real damage control. I wonder what the odds
>are of them issuing an official reply to this one.
If I were them, I'd sue. Any untrue statement could, I suppose (not being a
lawyer), be consider libel. No?
[slightly edited and rearranged]
>No, that's not the reason, I'm interested in getting something that
> 1) I can play around with at home
> 2) and would prefer something that has the potential of becoming
> a "real computer" should I choose.
> 3) I'd also like to evaluate one for potential use as a kiosk base.
Only the third of your three points is hinged on the company doing well.
Either you can or you cannot play around with it.
Either it will or will not be able to be made into a computer.
>Wow, you seem to be implying that Amiga users are lemmings. I thought
>Clone users had a lock on that title. :-)
We're putting up with state-of-the-art resolutions from, what, 89? :)
In some ways, we all are.
>On a related note, I'd like to suggest that anyone considering
>defecting from the Amiga get a system as described below:
Hee hee.
George Lynch
ha! your right! Ted and Wanda McBroom are no longer working at Commodore!
no matter what anyone says, the AMIGA rules! its a great computer that
lives by third party developers. Commodore has never provided anything
but the machine and OS. shareware developers, 3rd party vendors, etc. have
always provided the good AMIGA stuff, the stuff that makes the AMIGA so cool.
even if Commodore goes down and burns in hell, the current users of the
AMIGA will keep it going for years to come. of course who is to say that
5 years from now we will not be rid of that Intel crap and the computer world
will be a much happier place! :)
__________________________________________________________________________
| | |
| George Lynch -- gly...@msai.com | / / |
| | / / Amiga Does IT Better! |
| Disclaimer: All opinions expressed | / / |
| here, are those of my | \ \ / / |
| own and no one elses! | \_X_/ |
|_____________________________________|__________________________________|
Gregory R Block
: Room 2, The Insider's Conference
: Job City Room Sta Mail-Address
: 6 West chester,PA 2 N B.J.
Boy, those initials are real, REAL familiar... :)
: 8 Fresno,CA 2 N DEEPTHOUGHT
: 18 Fresno,CA 2 N DEEPMODEM
Interesting addresses, as well.
All in all, nothing new.
Greg
--
(: (: (: (: Have you overdosed on smileys today? Why NOT!?! :) :) :) :)
(: "Malkavians do it with restraint(s)!!!" :)
(: -A T-Shirt at GenCon... :)
(: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) Wubba :)
Benbuck Nason
I was just reading the latest MicroTimes, and came across the
following stock report info. Commodore is a stunning success!
This evidence is irrefutable. If that were not good enough news,
Apple will be out of business by the end of the year! I swear.
Ok, you ask, give me some proof. Well, according to MicroTimes
(a Northern California trade rag), from the period of 6/24 - 7/22,
Commodore stock rose an astounding 33.33%. That makes Commodore the
"LARGEST PERCENTAGE GAINER" according to MicroTimes. In fact, out of
the 12 hardware companies listed, Commodore is one of three that
gained at all. Clearly, Commodore is putting everyone else out of
business. Also, Comodore was listed third among the 12 companies.
I haven't read shuch good news in years.
And as I mentioned before, Apple isn't doing too well. Apple stock
plummeted 15.25 points (-36.53%). Obviously they are in major
financial trouble, and won't be around much longer. Two more
months like that, and their stock woud be worthless. Also, Apple
was the "LARGEST DOLLAR LOSER". It appears as though Apple is
the worst company in the world.
Now that all of you are jumping for joy, let me point out a few
things... All the numbers above are true, but misleading.
Commodore stock only increased by .88 points. It is the lowest
stock listed for any computer company (HW/SW). It is listed
third because the list is in alphabetical order. I'm happy to
say that everything about Apple is true, except perhaps my wishful
extrapolations.
The whole point of this is that you should not believe everything
you read, even if the information comes from a reliable source.
-Ben
--
Benbuck Nason big...@netcom.com PGP key available using finger.
"I start to think, and then I sink / into the paper, like I was ink.
When I'm writing I'm trapped in between the lines;
I escape when I finish the rhyme." - Eric B. and Rakim, "I Got Soul"
Gregory R Block
: It was depressing as hell. The Marc B. section must really burn a lot
: advocates!
No, not really. Even some of the things that weren't exactly true when
he said it became true just weeks later.
: For some reason, the fact the the networking software was basically
: finished and working, and still was not going to be part of 3.1 bugged
: me the most. (although several other things sucked: No DSP, AAA,
: external HDFD, etc... anytime soon).
It bugs a lot of people. It bugs me, it bugs the people that were using
AS225v2, it bugs a lot of people.
: I dunno, it probably the one product that will receive support and
: software. Look's like CD32 is the new baby at C-, and the Amiga is
: done.
It depends on what they do with the money they make, if they do. Sooner
or later, they're going to have to do something to give them an edge.
They may also have the money to release what they have, by then, as well.
Gregory R Block
: Rationalization ? No. Maybe its just that I'm not jaded enough yet,
: but I would think that the employees of a company should at least
: appear to be optimistic about their company's situation. Your analogy
There's two ways to aim this; you can either support your company, and be
cheery, or support the Amiga, company aside, and feel strongly enough
about the Amiga community to feel that they should know what's going on,
something very few of us are willing to do.
Lots of people know what's going on. Why would I, or most others, say
anything at all about what we know? We get the information, in many
cases, because the people who tell us know it won't "get around". Marc
Barrett is different--his reputation isn't getting any worse, and people
sometimes feel that there are things they just need to tell people.
Again, why would anyone who gets this kind of information take that kind
of blow onto their credibility, knowing that it would likely mean that
you'd get less information in the future? No, Marc Barrett was one of
the perfect ones to use to get that information out, even if it was taken
poorly, and exaggerated a bit; the exaggerations became fact soon enough.
Gregory R Block
: If there truly is to be no new high-end, we need to find a platform and
: develop a decent OS for it (haven't found a good combination yet).
HP PA-RISC running NeXTStep.
Gregory R Block
: 1. They didn't know answers to hardware questions
: 2. They didn't know answers to marketing questions
: 3. They took the 5th on a lot of other answers
: 4. The janitor was fired.
: 5. The receptionist was fired.
: Therefore, barring anyone stepping forward and identifying these
: two, I conclude you just witnessed a long expensive Q&A session
: with Commodore's former janitor and receptionist.
Pretty good logic. ;)
Gregory R Block
: Same here. If RTG and AAA really are dead... :-(
Damn. Everyone, get this Marc Barrettism out of your blood. "Dead" is a
relative term. If development stopped tomorrow on 4.0, it doesn't mean
that it wouldn't start back up a month later, when they had more
resources, whether that be monetary or manpower.
Consider this. A company has a new operating system release that it's
working hard on, but trying to meet a deadline that they probably won't
meet. So, that company moves people away from other projects, say a Unix
release and the next operating system revision team, and moves them onto
the operating system release that they're trying to get out the door.
Afterwards, manpower can be redistributed.
Would you then say that "Unix is dead" or that "OS x+1.y" is dead???
Gregory R Block
: transcript. (I read just enough of the transcript earlier today to find
: a really juicy line to add to my sig)
: +++++++ Marc Barrett -MB- | e-mail: bar...@iastate.edu
: ++++ "I was reading through some of the message base here recently and
: ++ someone suggested that CBM is not a computer company. This is pretty
: + accurate." -- a Commodore engineer in a discussion on GEnie
Ahh, that figures. Considering you really can't say anything ABOUT that
"C= engineer"...
Gregory R Block
: Nonetheless, the Amiga -is- in serious trouble. Let's hope a mircle happens.
: Best wishes folks!
They don't need a miracle, they just need a good Christmas.
Harv R Laser
accounts the two "insiders" were using during that genie conference
were guest accounts belonging to deb christensen. Since she lives
in Fresno, CA, the two guest accounts were set up in her name
at her location and so anyone using them, while they can change
their online "handle" or "nickname" ("DeepWhatever"), their point
of origin while using either of those guest accounts will show
as Fresno 'cuz that's where the Genie account database shows the
"owner" of those accounts, no matter where the users called from,
no matter who is using them. This doesn't negate what I said
earlier about the other possible ways those guys could be listed
as calling from Fresno, it just explains the machinations of it
during this particular instance. So there. :)
Paul Cardwell
Yeah, and how many people can afford an HP..let alone NeXTSTEP!?
ok, maybe a student.
.___________________________________________________________________________.
| Arc Wave, real life: Paul Cardwell | INet Address: a...@judy.indstate.edu |
|----------\\-----//--------------------------------------------------------|
| ---- \\\^ ^/// "Amiga, the wild side of power computing." ---- |
| ----- \\|.|// Amiga,OS/2,Unix,C Programmer ----- |
`------------\\-//----------------------------------------------------------'
Hsu I-wei
>In article <1993Aug25.0...@oracle.us.oracle.com>, David Navas (dna...@oracle.uucp) wrote:
>: If there truly is to be no new high-end, we need to find a platform and
>: develop a decent OS for it (haven't found a good combination yet).
>
>HP PA-RISC running NeXTStep.
I'm with you there. :) (Though I'd still rather see a PA-RISC running
AmigaOS believe it or not.)
>
>Greg
Francis
Bruce M. Franklin
>Was this posting real, or an elaborate hoax? I don't even own an
>Amiga any longer and I'm feeling depressed after reading it...
>I may just have to pass on that CD32.
>Skip Sauls
>sk...@cy.cs.olemiss.edu
It's real alright. That conference took place on GEnie on 8-22-93 and I
attended it (I'm Chantecler on GEnie). I'm also the guy who asked the
question about Marc Barrett.
I've already gotten email calling me a liar and a traitor. But it's time to
wake up and face the facts. This is not a hoax, those guys were real insiders
and it's past time to stop viewing Commodore through rose colored glasses.
Everyone attending that conference felt bad when it was over but it provided
a much needed reality check. This is the way it is and no amount of name
calling or advocacy fantasy is going to change it.
______________________________________________________________
| |
| B r u c e M. F r a n k l i n |
| bru...@access.digex.com |
|______________________________________________________________|
Robert Huebner
>In article <1993Aug25.0...@oracle.us.oracle.com>, David Navas (dna...@oracle.uucp) wrote:
>: If there truly is to be no new high-end, we need to find a platform and
>: develop a decent OS for it (haven't found a good combination yet).
>HP PA-RISC running NeXTStep.
If you take as truth what was posted in another thread on this newsgroup,
(title:AmigaNews October or something like that), Pleasance stated that HP is
to be their RISC supplier which obviously means one of their PA-RISC chips, T
or T' perhaps, depending on the date. And since NextStep has announced
plans to port to PA-RISC (Byte Magazine, current iss. I believe) this
machine could be an Amiga.
Then again, perhaps a better phrase would be "could have been".
Virtual Bob virt...@netcom.com
vir...@well.sf.ca.us
Tim Ciceran
(Hsu I-wei) writes:
>>(Gregory R Block) writes:
>>HP PA-RISC running NeXTStep.
>I'm with you there. :) (Though I'd still rather see a PA-RISC running
>AmigaOS believe it or not.)
Me too please - it would have formidable hardware requirements, but it
would be a nice way to reinvent the wheel.
--
Bruce M. Franklin
>1. They didn't know answers to hardware questions
>2. They didn't know answers to marketing questions
>3. They took the 5th on a lot of other answers
>4. The janitor was fired.
>5. The receptionist was fired.
>Therefore, barring anyone stepping forward and identifying these
>two, I conclude you just witnessed a long expensive Q&A session
>with Commodore's former janitor and receptionist.
>Harv
>ha...@cup.portal.com
Denny Atkin was at that conference along with Rhett Anderson. I think
Denny has a Portal account. If you think this is a hoax then go ask Denny.
Jack Radigan
>I've already gotten email calling me a liar and a traitor. But it's time to
>wake up and face the facts. This is not a hoax, those guys were real insiders
>and it's past time to stop viewing Commodore through rose colored glasses.
Real insiders? Without names to pin on these two cloaked individuals all you
can call them are alleged insiders...
That is, unless you're wont to beleiving everything people tell you.
>Everyone attending that conference felt bad when it was over but it provided
>a much needed reality check. This is the way it is and no amount of name
>calling or advocacy fantasy is going to change it.
In the words of the inimitable Yoggi Berra; "It ain't over 'till it's over."
Sure, the patient might be on life support and with Gould and Ali around it
could be argued that the EEG is at or close to flat-line. But, all comas are
not terminal...
Divine intervention couldn't hurt at this point though. ;-)
-jack-
David ;o
>: For some reason, the fact the the networking software was basically
>: finished and working, and still was not going to be part of 3.1 bugged
>: me the most.
>
>AS225v2, it bugs a lot of people.
>
>: I dunno, it probably the one product that will receive support and
>: software. Look's like CD32 is the new baby at C-, and the Amiga is
>: done.
>
>It depends on what they do with the money they make, if they do. Sooner
>or later, they're going to have to do something to give them an edge.
>They may also have the money to release what they have, by then, as well.
>
>Greg
I get the feeling that C- isn't comfortable as a computer
company, and would rather go back to the c-64 days. (yes, that was a
flame/joke at commies by an ex-apple ][ user :)
Anyway, I think C- sees too much competition and too small a
market at the high end. While competition is also fierce at the
console level, the market is far bigger, and might accomodate a cd-32,
especially in Europe. They can bring in cash (I dunno about profit) by
selling lots of A600's, A1200's, and cd-32's. It is a strategy that
will probably be good for 'C-' the company. They can trickle a bit of
money into R&D, so they can at least maintain some sort of Video
market niche. The loser is a small group of people (many on the net)
who want high end, workstation type amigas. Me for example. :( C-
may well achieve a second C-64 in the A600/1200/cd32 combo. The upside
is that third party development should be okay for a while.
| David Leslie | jpd...@netcom.com | Amiga 'Power User' :)
| Fight On USC! | dle...@scf.usc.edu | A1000,A2000, A3000 owner
Steve J. Lombardi
>
>And what does it matter if Amiga will only last a few years more
>(which it will definitely do, at least here in Europe)? Somehow I'm
>pretty sure the Intel based machines have the same future (as was said
>earlier, any 486 bought now is obsolete in 2 years, NT is being ported
>to other architectures etc.). In my opinion 68060 and Pentium show
>that there seems to be no way to REALLY speed up these processor
>families. If it'll be RISCs, ok for me. But it'll take some years.
>
Yes, The bottom line is - If a computer is doing what you need it
to do TODAY buy it, use it, love it. Be it Amiga or otherwise.
I suppose you could go buy a clone today instead, but the 'industry'
will tell you it's obsolete in a few years anyway. Even if something
comes along in a few years that does blow amiga away and is affordable,
well at least I got a lot of computing utility in the meantime. For
video and graphics, which is what I use the machine for, there is nothing
that even comes close to touching the Amiga on a consumer/hobbyist
budget. Not to mention being able to use the best OS on any micro
as a bonus.
>Besides, we Amiga fans have never got anything from Commodore (except
>the machine, of course). Third parties have always done the rest. So
>even if C= is no longer interested in Amiga (if it ever has been),
>let's hope third parties will still support it. And if we for some
>reason need a program from the PC world, there'll be PC Emplant
>(it'll propably multitask with AmigaDOS, so we don't lose that
>either).
>
I couldn't give a shit if C= folded tomorrow. THey still owe me Adpro
and DpaintAGA. I've been waiting 5 months. Third party support would
carry us at least long enough to make a smooth transition to whatever
the next big thing is in5 years or so.
--
| Hey Beavis. Essence-II's Crumpled texture
steve lombardi | really KICKS ASS. Mhhh huh. Yea. And those space
stl...@acm.rpi.edu | textures don't suck either. Huh.
| -From a really new Beavis and Butthead
Ivan Ivanick
bru...@access.digex.net (Bruce M. Franklin) writes:
>It's real alright. That conference took place on GEnie on 8-22-93 and I
>attended it (I'm Chantecler on GEnie). I'm also the guy who asked the
>question about Marc Barrett.
>
>I've already gotten email calling me a liar and a traitor. But it's time to
>wake up and face the facts. This is not a hoax, those guys were real insiders
>and it's past time to stop viewing Commodore through rose colored glasses.
>
Speaking of glasses of a different color, please realize that there are
insiders with less than 20/20 vision as well. We had a disgruntled
employee here at the library who went so far as to write an article for
the LA Times about the horrendous work conditions we suffered under,
comparing us to a sweatshop swarming with gestapo guards, and calling
his fellow workers 'grey-orbed drones'. It was 'real alright' -- yet
when Campus Human Resources surveyed job & workplace satisfaction for
the SRLF, we beat EVERY department on campus.
>Everyone attending that conference felt bad when it was over but it provided
>a much needed reality check. This is the way it is and no amount of name
>calling or advocacy fantasy is going to change it.
>
It was nothing like reality -- it was subjectivity pure and simple.
You're calling it reality doesn't make it so.
Ivan Ivanick esr...@mvs.oac.ucla.edu
"Reality is for people who can't handle drugs." - George Carlin
DERF
>In article be...@en.ecn.purdue.edu (Jeff Bevis) writes:
[stuff deleted]>
> The reason for the hits at Commodore engineering is that Commodore posted
>$288 million in losses for the first three quarters of fiscal year 1993
>(Commodore's fisc years run from July 1 to June 31). Commodore could post
>even more losses for the year, because their fourth-quarter financial results
>have not yet been released. In addition to this, Commodore's sales for
>the first three quarters of FY1993 were down $200 million from the same
>three quarters of FY1992. This is an over 20% drop in sales over one year.
I`ll predict a 20 to 30 million dollar loss for the 4th quarter.
I'm optimistic.
>+++++++ Marc Barrett -MB- | e-mail: bar...@iastate.edu
Craig Arnoldt
Evan Kirchhoff
>On a related note, I'd like to suggest that anyone considering
>defecting from the Amiga get a system as described below:
>
>Gravis Ultrasound - so you can be defensive about better hardware
>OS/2 - so you can feel smug in using an unpopular multitasking OS
>Diamond SVGA - so you can complain about the lack of support
>
>:-)
1/2 ROTFL!
(1/2 madly scribbling down product names :)
--
Evan Kirchhoff, kir...@ccu.umanitoba.ca
George Sanderson
Commodore has shit for brains. Their drive for profit will kill them,
instead of making profit. The Amiga can still be a mainstream machine if
someone else than Commodore does the thinking and marketing. Those two guys
(deepmodem and deepthought) sound like a disinformation campaign or at least
two pissed off employees.
The only way for Amiga to be taken seriously is to improve, and enhance.
AGA was the biggest let down. Those loosers took the ECS design, added a
few more bitplanes and sprites and hope for the best. If Commodore had
someone that tell the designers to make chips that work under VGA monitors
only, AGA would have been received much better. Instead, we have this 15khz
crappy display that simply is a load of old shit. And the blitter? Oh,
let's not do anything to that. Let's leave it nice and
SLOW.
I hope Commodore will be bought out by someone that has a more realistic
view of the potential of Amiga. Commodore = SHIT.
later.
Dennis F. Hefferman
>Therefore, barring anyone stepping forward and identifying these
>two, I conclude you just witnessed a long expensive Q&A session
>with Commodore's former janitor and receptionist.
My only real problem with this is that I have a hard time imagining
GEnie (or Deb, for that matter) putting alleged "Commodore insiders" on the
air without verifying their bonafides.
It'll be a few months at the earliest before I can scrape together
the money for a new machine, but unless I see something real good from C= in
that time, I'll be moving to Macintosh Land. I may ditch the Amy in any event.
I'm getting into Prolog and Lisp at school, and the only versions of those
languages for the Amy are cheesy PD ones. I'm getting to a point now where
the lack of real support is becoming a pain in the rear thruster.
heff...@icarus.montclair.edu Dennis Francis Heffernan
(Yes, the address is spelled wrong and no, it's not my fault.)
Montclair State College Comp Sci/Philosophy
"That's what the short ones are FOR." -- Murphy Brown
fhei...@desire.wright.edu
Commodore's biggest problem seems to be lack of cash flow to
produce new machines. By all accounts the A1200 and A4000 are
selling well, but still Commodore are not making money. That
senario does not make sense unless you add the cash flow qualifier.
This whole business of C= losing money is confusing. How many A600,
A1200, and A4000s were they expecting to sell? Obviously, they didn't
think they could keep selling A2000s, and A3000s after the new
machines came out? I would think this in the A2000s case, even
though it's still an eminently usable machine.
I just am not satisfied with the explanations I've heard so far
on the net and elsewhere. It just doesn't add up. To me it's
just as reasonable to believe a "aliens took over C=" reason to
explain why they lost that much money.
On a related note: I'd like to get the A4091 and MB swap, but no
boards are to be found (according to my dealer). Of course this is
a money loser for C=, replacing users MBs. What can they do with the
old MBs? pitch them?
Actually, given the right equipment, one would think one should be
able to replace the old buster with a socket, assuming everything
else is the same.
>
>>+++++++ Marc Barrett -MB- | e-mail: bar...@iastate.edu
>
>
> Craig Arnoldt
>
Fred Heitkamp, ---- Not an organization --- A4000/040. 386DX40
Nils Liaaen Corneliusen
In article <aissande.746350470@kraken>, aiss...@kraken.itc.gu.edu.au (George Sanderson) writes:
> Commodore has shit for brains. Their drive for profit will kill them,
> instead of making profit.
I would assume that's the same, but maybe it's better to discuss this
in something like alt.poltics.radical-left.
The Amiga can still be a mainstream machine if
> someone else than Commodore does the thinking and marketing.
Amiga is *not* a mainstream machine! I hope it won't be either.
> If Commodore had
> someone that tell the designers to make chips that work under VGA monitors
> only, AGA would have been received much better.
You are joking, right? Amiga is one of the few computers that can produce
a decent video display. But hey, if you want VGA graphics, the modes are
there. What is the problem?
Instead, we have this 15khz crappy display that simply is a load of old shit.
Wrong. We still have 15khz, but there are also VGA compatible modes. 15khz
is a must for video production etc. (Also, it is quite fun to play games
on a large tv 8-)
> And the blitter? Oh, let's not do anything to that.
> Let's leave it nice and SLOW.
The blitter is the same, but the bandwith has been increased, so it
operates faster, yes.
> I hope Commodore will be bought out by someone that has a more realistic
> view of the potential of Amiga. Commodore = SHIT.
Get real!
------------------------------------------------------------
INCLUDE "disclaimer.i" Amiga 4000/040
Nils Corneliusen Darkman/Triumph
internet: nil...@ifi.uio.no "Intel Outside"
S J Anderson
>a really juicy line to add to my sig)
>
> ++ someone suggested that CBM is not a computer company. This is pretty
> + accurate." -- a Commodore engineer in a discussion on GEnie
Yes, and I demand on behalf of everybody sane that you at least change it to
"un-named Commodore sometime employee" or preferably "someone who claimed to
be a Commodore...", as if you've been following this thread, you'll know that
their identity is increasingly in doubt.
Stephen
csx...@scs.leeds.ac.uk\\ Subscribe to alt.fan.lemurs - You know it makes frink!
Harv R Laser
>Denny Atkin was at that conference along with Rhett Anderson. I think
>Denny has a Portal account. If you think this is a hoax then go ask Denny.
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> | |
> | B r u c e M. F r a n k l i n |
> | bru...@access.digex.com |
> |______________________________________________________________|
I know Denny quite well and I've spoken with him since that conference.
He has ideas as to who those two guys were but isn't positive. If you
know who they are, let's hear it.
And yes, Denny has a Portal account. He also has a Portal vendor area
and there are a few Meg of Compute disk files in it, and more to come,
that won't be anywhere else.
Have you asked Denny what he thought of the whole concept of two
anonymous "sources"? Ask him.
Gregory R Block
: Divine intervention couldn't hurt at this point though. ;-)
I agree.
(fade in to a picture of the Amiga 4000T on a desktop, as Kiki
Stockhammer in floss and a skimpy bikini walks up and rests her large
chest on the top of the tower, slowly crossing her arms...)
"It isn't often that one heavenly body eclipses another; you'd better get
your Amiga while you can."
(she giggles that "blonde" giggle of sheer joy, tosses her hair back and
uncrosses her arms to show off her chest to the camera again, and walks
away.)
Well, it sounds like Divine Intervention to me, anyways.
:D
Gregory R Block
: If you take as truth what was posted in another thread on this newsgroup,
: (title:AmigaNews October or something like that), Pleasance stated that HP is
: to be their RISC supplier which obviously means one of their PA-RISC chips, T
: or T' perhaps, depending on the date. And since NextStep has announced
: plans to port to PA-RISC (Byte Magazine, current iss. I believe) this
: machine could be an Amiga.
Yes, it could, but C= would have it run NT, not NeXTStep; and it WOULD
have to be ported, so it's likely that the only one of the two we'll see,
at least at first, is NT.
And what I think of the PA-RISC architecture is none of your business,
anyways, so there. ;)
Tom R Krotchko
>lawyer), be consider libel. No?
Sue whom? The alleged employees? They'd have to not only prove they'd
been harmed, they'd have to prove it was untrue.
Gregory R Block
: Sue whom? The alleged employees? They'd have to not only prove they'd
: been harmed, they'd have to prove it was untrue.
Umm, first they'd have to prove who it WAS. ;)
Dr Peter Kittel Germany
>can play around with at home, and would prefer something that has the
>potential of becoming a "real computer" should I choose.
I more and more come to the conclusion that this is no good goal, as it's
a contradiction. A "home" device, or more precisely a device hanging off
your TV set, is just that. It can't conveniently get transformed into a
computer. Perhaps I wrongly conclude from my own situation, but this is
so that my CDTV sits (at home) on top of my TV. Yes, I have a floppy
hanging from it, so that I also can use some floppy software and by use
of some directory tool even do file-manager-like things with the remote
control. But I have hardly a possibility to connect a keyboard, at least
I would need a cord extension. Also I have a rather big TV, so I normally
sit in a fair distance of it. For computer use, one normally should sit
more near to the display. But as we had descriptions of tight room
situations in dorms the last days, this all may vary of course among
various users...
>I'd also
>like to evaluate one for potential use as a kiosk base.
Sure. It should make one terribly cost efficient and capable kiosk machine.
I also have thoughts in this direction.
--
Best regards, Dr. Peter Kittel // E-Mail to \\ Only my personal opinions...
Commodore Frankfurt, Germany \X/ pet...@cbmger.de.so.commodore.com
John Campbell - CATS
>only one that can do any real damage control. I wonder what the odds
>are of them issuing an official reply to this one.
>
I think there is some responsibility to be placed on the readers of
.advocacy. As in the newspaper world:
1. Are sources named so that facts can be substantiated?
2. What facts were there? I saw a lot of conjecture from my view.
.Advocacy is not the proper forum for Commodore to come on and defend every
half truth/ half lie that is posted. We have actual jobs to perform. If we
posted every time someone had an opinion that disagreed or was spreading
a false rumour, especially in .advocacy, I would never go home at night.
Consider the source. To me, no names = no credibility.
As far as systems to buy are concerned, buy the one that fits your needs the
best! To me the Amiga CD32 will be a great game machine. Commodore will
naturally be concentrating its resources on it, it is NEW. This does not
mean that high end development has stopped.
What are the odds of all of us ignoring half truth/unsubstantiated posts?
Most posts that pretend to have inside information have half fact and half
fiction. By mixing these together somewhat randomly, unfairly positive or
more usually, unfairly negative visions of Commodore past and present emerge.
Lets discuss issues that we know, or at least clearly tag our guesses as
such, not as fact.
John Campbell
Director, Commodore Applications and Technical Support
Gregory G Greene
'>best! To me the Amiga CD32 will be a great game machine. Commodore will
'>naturally be concentrating its resources on it, it is NEW. This does not
'>mean that high end development has stopped.
Does "concentrating its resources" mean that Commodore is going to do
some advertising of the CD32? And what about distribution channels, is it
going to be available at Walmart, Sears, Software Etc, etc, etc, or is it
going to be just Amiga dealers?
Greg Greene
g...@kepler.unh.edu
'>John Campbell
Evan Kirchhoff
>In article <25fqv4$1...@Tut.MsState.Edu> sk...@cy.cs.olemiss.edu (Skip Sauls)
>>only one that can do any real damage control. I wonder what the odds
>>are of them issuing an official reply to this one.
>.Advocacy is not the proper forum for Commodore to come on and defend every
>half truth/ half lie that is posted. We have actual jobs to perform. If we
>posted every time someone had an opinion that disagreed or was spreading
>a false rumour, especially in .advocacy, I would never go home at night.
Obviously, C= needs to hire a full-time "executive in charge of
.advocacy" :) Anyway, if all those C= people sitting for interviews
in Amiga Format, etc., aren't a good example of "damage control"
(positive information, targeting the main publications in the main
markets), then I don't know what is. (I read the Eggebrecht interview
today, and he's a lot more level-headed than Pleasance, and denies
that wacky "5x the speed of the Pentium" claim).
--
Evan Kirchhoff, kir...@ccu.umanitoba.ca
Bruce M. Franklin
>I know Denny quite well and I've spoken with him since that conference.
>He has ideas as to who those two guys were but isn't positive. If you
>know who they are, let's hear it.
>And yes, Denny has a Portal account. He also has a Portal vendor area
>and there are a few Meg of Compute disk files in it, and more to come,
>that won't be anywhere else.
>Have you asked Denny what he thought of the whole concept of two
>anonymous "sources"? Ask him.
>Harv
>ha...@cup.portal.com
Even if I did know who those guys were I wouldn't reveal it. Their jobs
at Commodore are insecure enough as it is.
You seem skeptical that those two guys really are insiders. This was Deb's
conference and she vouched for them. If they're not really insiders then:
1. The whole thing is a fraud and Deb is a thumping liar.
2. Deb is stupid enough to be gulled by a couple of phony insiders.
I can't accept either of the above. If they are not insiders then who
do you think they are and why did Deb vouch for them?
I'll ask Denny what he thinks and let you know.
Skip Sauls
> writes:
>>
>>Well, we've seen things like this before, and Commodore itself is the
>>only one that can do any real damage control. I wonder what the odds
>>are of them issuing an official reply to this one.
>
>I think there is some responsibility to be placed on the readers of
>.advocacy. As in the newspaper world:
>
>1. Are sources named so that facts can be substantiated?
No, although some here claim to know who the persons are. Perhaps
an "outing" of sorts is in order...
>2. What facts were there? I saw a lot of conjecture from my view.
With the limited number of facts available from Commodore, and the
somewhat unpleasant situation that they appear to be in, it's not
surprising that many folks were upset by the post, facts or not.
I later re-read parts of the post, and realized that it was almost
like an Amiga-haters dream come true, as it seemed to address nearly
everything that has been discussed on this newsgroup as of late. This
alone leads me to question the identity of the alleged C= employees.
>.Advocacy is not the proper forum for Commodore to come on and defend every
>half truth/ half lie that is posted. We have actual jobs to perform. If we
>posted every time someone had an opinion that disagreed or was spreading
>a false rumour, especially in .advocacy, I would never go home at night.
Well, I can see your point, and I don't expect you or anyone else to
make it your sole job to defend Commodore. However, official
statements can be amazingly effective in calming down the public and
restoring faith in the future of the platform. The statements from
Lew Eggerbrecht (I am probably butchering the spelling) after the
recent DevCon's are prime examples, as are the various quotes from
Dave Pleasance out of the UK mags. Not every rumor, lie, etc. needs
to be addressed by Commodore, but something such as this would seem
to warrant it.
>Consider the source. To me, no names = no credibility.
Agreed. I have had personal experience with this, and the number of
people who are willing to believe an anonymous post is incredible.
>As far as systems to buy are concerned, buy the one that fits your needs the
>best! To me the Amiga CD32 will be a great game machine. Commodore will
>naturally be concentrating its resources on it, it is NEW. This does not
>mean that high end development has stopped.
I'm not really worried too much about the high-end, but I would like
to see them at least survive in this country. If it means that they
will be concentrating on the CD32, fine, but it needs to be a real
effort, not something half-hearted.
>What are the odds of all of us ignoring half truth/unsubstantiated posts?
Slim to none. The worst part is that this post may end up in various
newsletters, magazines, and other media. Commodore may be able to
prevent further damage by issuing a simple statement of assurance
about certain issues addressed in the article.
>Most posts that pretend to have inside information have half fact and half
>fiction. By mixing these together somewhat randomly, unfairly positive or
>more usually, unfairly negative visions of Commodore past and present emerge.
I agree entirely, but feel that Commodore needs to be doing more to
promote themselves, giving people less reason to post such things.
A bit of horn-blowing about up and coming projects would go a long
way towards making many people feel better. I realize that there
are certain things which cannot be discussed, but releasing the
occasional "tech preview" has never hurt other companies.
>Lets discuss issues that we know, or at least clearly tag our guesses as
>such, not as fact.
Well, that's a bit much to ask of most .advocacy readers (myself
included), but long-time readers don't take many of us very seriously
anymore. If any of the regular posters thinks otherwise, they are
deluding themself. However, the post from the Genie conference was
not from one of the regular gladiators, and seemed to shake up quite
a few folks. I had more than a few folks email me asking for advice
on Clone systems should they decide to jump ship, as I'm a former
Amiga Advocate who is relatively happy with the switch to another
platform. This freaked me out, as I've never had this sort of thing
happen before, even after similarly gloomy postings.
Skip Sauls
sk...@cy.cs.olemiss.edu
Philip McDunnough
[Comments re an odd discussion by ghosts...]
>
>As far as systems to buy are concerned, buy the one that fits your needs the
>best! To me the Amiga CD32 will be a great game machine. Commodore will
>naturally be concentrating its resources on it, it is NEW. This does not
>mean that high end development has stopped.
I must tell you that the world is not looking for yet another game machine.
People want more. There's Nintendo to supply us with overpriced hype. And
Sega...How many do we need? I can see the same thinking going on here with
the CD32 as with the CDTV. C= should empasize, and make sure it can be
done, that this unit can be easily expanded into an A1200.
[ ]
--
Philip McDunnough
University of Toronto
phi...@utstat.toronto.edu
[Where sheep may safely graze...]
KENNEDY JAMES SCOT
> Ha...@cup.portal.com (Harv R Laser) writes:
>
>>1. They didn't know answers to hardware questions
>>2. They didn't know answers to marketing questions
>>3. They took the 5th on a lot of other answers
>>4. The janitor was fired.
>>5. The receptionist was fired.
>
>>Therefore, barring anyone stepping forward and identifying these
>>two, I conclude you just witnessed a long expensive Q&A session
>>with Commodore's former janitor and receptionist.
>
>>Harv
>>ha...@cup.portal.com
>
> Denny Atkin was at that conference along with Rhett Anderson. I think
> Denny has a Portal account. If you think this is a hoax then go ask Denny.
So how does Denny Atkin know that this isn't a hoax?
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> | |
> | B r u c e M. F r a n k l i n |
> | bru...@access.digex.com |
> |______________________________________________________________|
>
>
---Scott
KENNEDY JAMES SCOT
Try this one on for size: I predict that C= will be in the black by the
middle of next year and they'll be operating at a modest profit by the
end of next year. How did I arrive at this prediction? Simple. When you're
down at the bottom the only way to go is up. I believe that Commodore will
be releasing new products RSN (e.g., CD32). This can only help them. Now if
they would just get the marketing and distribution end of things down pat.
>>+++++++ Marc Barrett -MB- | e-mail: bar...@iastate.edu
>
>
> Craig Arnoldt
>
>
---Scott
Brian Jackson
>In article <brucef.746195821@access>, Bruce M. Franklin (bru...@access.digex.net) wrote:
>: Room 2, The Insider's Conference
>: Job City Room Sta Mail-Address
>: 6 West chester,PA 2 N B.J.
>
>Boy, those initials are real, REAL familiar... :)
I have been a sysop on GEnie for over 7 years. I was in attendance at
this "event", yes. So were other CBM personnel at various times. And,
contrary to what some would like to believe, it was not a hoax. There
are over 80 attendees who can attest to this fact. The listing of
names in that posting was a glipse of who was on-line at that moment.
It does nbot show the comings and goings of many other participants
during the 2.5 hour conference.
>: 8 Fresno,CA 2 N DEEPTHOUGHT
>: 18 Fresno,CA 2 N DEEPMODEM
>
>Interesting addresses, as well.
I'll explain this, too (and hopefully take at least one source of
silly speculation away from this forum.) GEnie (as do other on-line
systems) uses account names and numbers together. Your login name and
number need to match to get on. In this case, the DEEPxxxx accounts
are accounts owned and maintained by Deb Christensen (the chief sysop of
the Amiga areas on GEnie) for variuous uses. MANY individuals have used
her "guest accounts" over the last several YEARS. Sheldon Leemon used
to use the DEEPMODEM account a lot. That the accounts have an owner
and an address in Fresno is nothing suspicious. It's where the owner
of the accounts lives fer cryin' out loud. Sheesh.
As an aside, I want to say that I think it's REAL low of Mr. Laser, a
heads-up competitor to Deb Christensen and GEnie, to come on a world
wide network and even HINT that Deb Christensen would do ANYthing as
shoddy as simulating a conference that did not take place, or that
things are not exactly as presented. Deb runs a clean show and she
does not stoop to deception or trickery. In no way does she deserve
that type of innuendo from anyone, certainly not Harv Laser. She has
an apology coming.
You should be ashamed, Harv. Really. Majorly unprofessional. Is the
competition really that tough?
>Greg
--
Brian Jackson
b...@cbmvax.commodore.com
DAVID ZVEKIC
revealed anything. I just read a post by another "C= insider" today, the
sysop of Commodore Support BBS (Comnet) in Toronto, and in response to the
comment that "all Amigas need to improve" he said "They will! You can count on
it."
All things considered he seems a lot more knowledgable about the Amiga and
Commodore then the 2 "C= insiders" in the Genie transcript. Instead of
trying to go out of his way to defend the EC030 chip (although he does
believe that most people don't need an MMU) he is trying to shake us a deal
with Fujitsu in Toronto to get some kind of replacement program going.
Fujitsu has the SMT technology to replace the chips.
Anyways, the Commodore Support BBS is the finest BBS of that type I've
ever seen. They are actually helpful and sympathetic to the users needs.
I've never had that kind of support from another company.
I wish I remembered the SYSOPS name... he deserves recognition for his
supperb efforts. He goes out of his way for us.
As far as the Amiga's future?
All current PC technologies will probably switch to RISC eventuallly. The
question is when. Most likely not any time in the future. The PowerPC chips
are not compatable with the 680x0 instruction set. PowerPC uses software
emulation. All current software is supposed to be able to run at about the
speed of a 25 Mhz 040.
This means 2 things. 1. All current software will get no speed benefit from
PowerPC. No reason to upgrade.
2. The 68060 chip will outperform the PowerPC when
running current software.
3. It will be a while before developers port their
software to PowerPC.
This means.... Pentium and 68060 both have a future yet.
Similar arguments are valid for other chips such as Alfa etc.
And for the Amiga in particular....
Of all the micro computers out there. Which ONE computer has proved time and
time again to be the MOST upgradable. The MOST expandable. And the LONGEST
lived????
Answer: AMIGA!
(actually the C-64 might beat us out on the long lived bit. ;)
If there is any architecture which survives the transition to RISC it will
be AMIGA!
David Z.
Knut Fjellheim
In article <CCDnF...@cbmvax.cbm.commodore.com>,
camp...@cbmvax.cbm.commodore.com (John Campbell - CATS) writes:
|> .Advocacy is not the proper forum for Commodore to come on and defend every
|> half truth/ half lie that is posted. We have actual jobs to perform. If we
|> posted every time someone had an opinion that disagreed or was spreading
|> a false rumour, especially in .advocacy, I would never go home at night.
I agree that most of what is posted here is just crap, speculations made
by people who are so depressed that they should seek professional help,
or people who are just discrediting the amiga by posting lies. Of course
we don't excpect you to answer all these postings, but you could at
least kill a few rumors once in a while. That would put and end to all
these meaningless postings, and open up a more constructive debate.
|> Most posts that pretend to have inside information have half fact and half
|> fiction. By mixing these together somewhat randomly, unfairly positive or
|> more usually, unfairly negative visions of Commodore past and present
|> emerge.
I am sure most of us know that (or at least I hope so).
|> Lets discuss issues that we know, or at least clearly tag our guesses
|> as
|> such, not as fact.
I would like to start discussing what we (Amiga users) would like to see
in the new Amigas and/or operating systems. Would you (C=) be willing to
listen to us, or would such a debate be a waste of time? Would anybody
out there be interrested in that? Well I hope so. Anyways I am going to
give myself the honour of starting this new ballgame.
This is what I would like to see in future Amiga OS / HW:
1) More support of colors in OS libraries (e.g. gadtools). I think C=
has underestimated the effect colors have on users. The standard
grey-scale user interface is just too boring. We all know that memory
will be less of a constraint in the future, and I think C= should look
ahead and prepare all OS libraries for complete color control. Why
should not each application open a custom screen and present a colorful
GUI? Colors is plesant too look at and will increase user productivity.
(OK, that's not scientificly based but it is my oppinion)
2)Are there any A4000/1200 owners who do not use WBVerlauf? I would not
enjoy WB as much if I did not have WBVerlauf. C= should have a Verlauf
in their WBPrefs programs. Background pictures are OK, but you need to
find a really good one, or it is just going to be a disturbing factor.
Patterns is hopeless. Just forget about it! WBVerlauf is by far the best
solution.
3) 16 bit sound. I am sure it is almost ready, but just to express my
strong expectations: I want it! It would also be nice to have a balance
register attached to each audio channel so that stereo effects could be
created.
4) NExT achieved the mega-pixel level a long time ago. It is about time
that the Amiga reached this level as well. E.g. 1280x1024x24bit would
allow the Amiga to compete in performance with lower-level workstations.
DTP would be a joy as well. Of course the chip memory needs to be
expended to at least 16 Mb to allow for multiple 24bit screens, but that
should be no problem. When IBM gets its rear end moving, they may
finally be able to move their new (and very tiny) transistor out of
their research laboratories and start producing what might be giga-bit
memory chips. (I suppose it will take a few years). That would allow for
pure 24 bit screens for all applications. Keep that in mind C=.
5) Keep the new RISC designs open for multiprocessing. Allow the users
to add more processors if needed. This just might create a new marked
for the Amiga in the long run. The Amiga cannot compete with
workstations in performance as long as it is using the 68k series, but
when the Amiga gets RISC it is a whole new ballgame. Things might
develop this way: Professional users will buy the Amiga (A5000?) which
has a RISC processor. After a while applications will take advantage of
the increased performence and implement new features which demands a
high performance processor. After a while the more advanced applications
will again be suffering from lack of speed (this seems to be a natural
computer science law), and the companies will then expand their existing
Amiga systems by adding more proccesors. As more and more Amiga users
expands their systems, a new Amiga market is opened. No investments or
risks for C=, only a little foresight. Let the market grow, and it will
grow. Give us the possibility, and we will take advantage of the
options. And by the way, there is a need for multiprocessing Amigas.
Guess what could be done with a raytracing animator...? Even a 040
raytracer is just a toy.
6) Make the Amiga look different than a PC clone. The Amiga 4000 is a
good computer, but I am not happy with the way it looks. The NExT, just
to give an example, has a design which appeals to me. It looks dynamic,
and does distinguish itself from other computers. The Amiga should have
an image which will make people say: Oh, look. It's an Amiga!
I have more suggestions, but because I can't remember them right now,
I'll get back to them later. So come on everybody. Keep your views
rolling in. Give my suggestions fair critique, but please, keep it
serious. NO MORE CRAP, RUMORS, AND LIES!
Knut Fjellheim ====================================
knu...@babbage.hsn.no = I have faith in the Amiga!
Nordland College ====================================
Knut Fjellheim
In article <CCEE2...@ccu.umanitoba.ca>, kir...@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Evan
Kirchhoff) writes:
|> Obviously, C= needs to hire a full-time "executive in charge of
|> .advocacy" :) Anyway, if all those C= people sitting for interviews
|> in Amiga Format, etc., aren't a good example of "damage control"
|> (positive information, targeting the main publications in the main
|> markets), then I don't know what is. (I read the Eggebrecht interview
|> today, and he's a lot more level-headed than Pleasance, and denies
|> that wacky "5x the speed of the Pentium" claim).
Good idea! Lack of information will create rumors and lies! Eggebrecht
is doing a good job, but he can't do the job well enough by himself. The
Amiga is a great computer, but who knows it? Only Amiga owners?
ENCYCLOPEDIA:> C:Lookup "C= marketing and advocacy"
--> A term defining what should
--> have been, and not what is.
--> No more information exist on this subject.
ENCYCLOPEDIA:>_
Knut Fjellheim ==============================================
knu...@babbage.hsn.no = We have reached the age where the exchange
Nordland College = of information is the basis of peoles lives
=============================================
DAVID ZVEKIC
>Why? The article was depressing to me because it makes sense.
>
I found it hard to follow myself.
>Commodore decided that they're not a computer company, so cut PCs and
>"computerish" Amiga developments like networking, DSP, RTG, AAA, 060, RISC.
You don't know what Commodore decided. And neither does [DeepModem] or
[DeepThought]! They didn't seem to know much.
>Instead concentrate on making CD^32 a success, and follow on in that
>direction if it is.
>
The Amiga 1200 is a success man! The A4000/030 sells like crazy too!
>As such, I think you're quite safe buying a CD^32. If that's where the
>focus is, we really will see the FMV module quite soon.
>
>What isn't safe is buying an Amiga. I'm feeling much like I was last year,
>when I was giving them until Christmas to come up with something, before I
>bought a clone with OS/2. I may still do that, but I'm not _quite_ that
>desperate. Not yet. And I may also buy a CD^32 to play with.
What exactly did you have in mind? Perhaps an Amiga with 16.7 million colours
simultaneously, running a 040 at 50mhz, 240 meg scsi, 32 channel 16 bit sound
w/ built in 24 bit stereo FX processor. 2 16 bit DSPs, akiko chip (so you
you can have 320x200x256 graphics just like all the PC games have and not
have to worry about what the difference between chunky and planer graphics
really is) quadruple playing fields... hell... make it 256 playing fields.
8 megs Chip mem expandable to 128 megs chip. 8 megs ram expandable to 128.
All that and a free mousepad.
List Price: $1199 (w/o monitor)
Coming this Christmas to a fairy tale near you!
What is it with the hardware on the new Amigas that you don't like? They run
all the software on the market for the Amiga as fast as you might want.
Oh, they cost a few hundred more then comparable PC systems?? Well 2 years
from now when you are replacing your comparable PC system 'cause you can't
expand it and it is obsolete, I'll just be popping in the latest CPU
card and selling my old card to someone else who will find that my CPU card
is usefull for him.
If replacable CPU cards aren't "something" then I don't know what it.
Myself, I'm sick and tired of replacing my entire computer every 2 or 3 years.
>
>
>--
>David Meiklejohn (dav...@dpi.qld.gov.au)
David Z. -happy with his Amiga.
Stig A. Olsen
concentrating on the message. Apparently there is no doubt that this conference
took place on Genie and what reason should these two "false insiders" have to
say what they did if they were not real. If you don't like what you hear, it
doesn't mean it's not true...
--
| Stig A. Olsen | st...@ifi.uio.no | "Ja til EF" |
| Never hit a man with glasses. Hit him with a baseball bat. |
JARDAR SUNDE OLSEN
>Ha...@cup.portal.com (Harv R Laser) writes:
>>1. They didn't know answers to hardware questions
>>2. They didn't know answers to marketing questions
>>3. They took the 5th on a lot of other answers
>>4. The janitor was fired.
>>5. The receptionist was fired.
>>Therefore, barring anyone stepping forward and identifying these
>>two, I conclude you just witnessed a long expensive Q&A session
>>with Commodore's former janitor and receptionist.
>>Harv
>>ha...@cup.portal.com
>Denny Atkin was at that conference along with Rhett Anderson. I think
>Denny has a Portal account. If you think this is a hoax then go ask Denny.
But how do you know that the characters DeepThought and DeepModem are "
real" C= insiders? And even if they are, how can you bee sure that they know
what they are talking about?
> B r u c e M. F r a n k l i
xxxxx
( O O )
-----------------------------OOO----U----OOO---------------------------------
/// Jardar Sunde Olsen Aiming higher! _____
/// email: jard...@dhhalden.no |
\\\/// ----------------O----------------
\/// "If I go insane, Please don't put your wires in my brain" - Pink Floyd
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Stig A. Olsen
In article <CCDnF...@cbmvax.cbm.commodore.com>, camp...@cbmvax.cbm.commodore.com (John Campbell - CATS) writes:
>
> such, not as fact.
>
>
> John Campbell
> Director, Commodore Applications and Technical Support
And what do we know?
We know that Apple is going to use the PowerPC, that they have DSP support now and that
they are working with IBM on a new operating system (Taligent). We know they are going
to use PCI-buses in the future.
We know that PC's is also going the PCI-route that there are more and faster versions
of the '486 coming from various sources (IBM DX3, Intel official info about pentium technology
and probley AMD/Cyrix etc) that NT (with support by multiple non-Intel RISC chip manufacturers,
among them MIPS/SGI) is here today and so is various un*xes. We also know that IBM
is working on PowerPC systems.
We know that C= has released a new game console. We know it took several years for the 2nd
generation of Amigas to come. We know that a lot of engineers have left.
What I'm trying to say is that a little more info wouldn't hurt. But why should I care, I've
already jumped ship...
Why did the A500 succeed? Because it was powerful and cheap in that order. Why will the
CD32 fail? Because it is not powerful enough. The public isn't stupid, they know what's
coming from other vendors, because they tell us about it (marketing).
Peter Sj|str|m
>I must tell you that the world is not looking for yet another game machine.
>People want more. There's Nintendo to supply us with overpriced hype. And
>Sega...How many do we need? I can see the same thinking going on here with
>the CD32 as with the CDTV. C= should empasize, and make sure it can be
>done, that this unit can be easily expanded into an A1200.
Please stress that it will play Video CD instead!!! (can't stress
that enough!)
/Peter
Skip Sauls
[...]
>Of all the micro computers out there. Which ONE computer has proved time and
>time again to be the MOST upgradable. The MOST expandable. And the LONGEST
>lived????
>
>Answer: AMIGA!
>(actually the C-64 might beat us out on the long lived bit. ;)
You were doing fine until you wrote this. The IBM PC Clones have been
around longer than the Amiga, and I'd bet that they will be around
long after the Amiga is forgotten.
>If there is any architecture which survives the transition to RISC it will
>be AMIGA!
Get real. The Mac is already moving towards RISC, and it's lack of
the need to rely on specific hardware will make it much easier to
support on a different platform. MSDOS has been shown to be fairly
easy to emulate, and there is little doubt that future RISC platforms
will offer compatibility.
Skip Sauls
sk...@cy.cs.olemiss.edu
Buddha
Philip McDunnough <phi...@utstat.toronto.edu> wrote:
>
>I must tell you that the world is not looking for yet another game machine.
>People want more. There's Nintendo to supply us with overpriced hype. And
>Sega...How many do we need? I can see the same thinking going on here with
>the CD32 as with the CDTV. C= should empasize, and make sure it can be
>done, that this unit can be easily expanded into an A1200.
>
I think it's been too long since you were a kid. Video gamers (most of
whom are kids) _do_ want another gaming system. They want one with
_more power_. Just like I want a new graphics card and a fast
accelerator, video gamers want "32 bits of power" and "16 million
colors". IMO, if this is done right, it will fall right into place in
the video game market.
>--
>Philip McDunnough
Scott Ashdown
In a previous article, leb...@IRO.UMontreal.CA (David Lebel) says:
>On 24 Aug 93 13:47:20 -0500,
>sincl...@cobra.uni.edu wrote:
>
>: Even Marc Barret was mentioned. The two insiders said he was right most of
>: the time in his statements.
>
> Maybe one insider was in fact, Marc Barrett it self, in his crusade
>to eradicate the Amiga from the planet Earth?
Possibly, David, but I don't recall the word "dead" popping up all over the
place :)
--
Scott Ashdown | Carleton University Transputer Lab
Computer Systems | ash...@sce.carleton.ca
Engineering Year IV | ac...@freenet.carleton.ca
Ralph Schmidt
>In article <CCB2J...@qdpii.ind.dpi.qld.gov.au> dav...@qdpii.ind.dpi.qld.gov.au (David Meiklejohn) writes:
>>Why? The article was depressing to me because it makes sense.
>>
>I found it hard to follow myself.
>>Commodore decided that they're not a computer company, so cut PCs and
>>"computerish" Amiga developments like networking, DSP, RTG, AAA, 060, RISC.
>You don't know what Commodore decided. And neither does [DeepModem] or
>[DeepThought]! They didn't seem to know much.
How do you know that the both don't know much ? How ?..please tell me.
Is it only because they tell bad news or what makes you think that
they don't know anything ?...i'm really curious
And do you believe everything Lew and this Pleasance guy tell you ?
Managers have to lie when it's necessary to protect their company
and their job.....Aren't you wondering how CBM will be able to
do after the worldwide cuts what this Pleasance guy tells ?
I have my doubts...
>>Instead concentrate on making CD^32 a success, and follow on in that
>>direction if it is.
>>
>The Amiga 1200 is a success man! The A4000/030 sells like crazy too!
It seems CBM can't produce enough because they haven't the money to
finance the production...
>>As such, I think you're quite safe buying a CD^32. If that's where the
>>focus is, we really will see the FMV module quite soon.
>>
>>What isn't safe is buying an Amiga. I'm feeling much like I was last year,
>>when I was giving them until Christmas to come up with something, before I
>>bought a clone with OS/2. I may still do that, but I'm not _quite_ that
>>desperate. Not yet. And I may also buy a CD^32 to play with.
>What exactly did you have in mind? Perhaps an Amiga with 16.7 million colours
>simultaneously, running a 040 at 50mhz, 240 meg scsi, 32 channel 16 bit sound
>w/ built in 24 bit stereo FX processor. 2 16 bit DSPs, akiko chip (so you
>you can have 320x200x256 graphics just like all the PC games have and not
>have to worry about what the difference between chunky and planer graphics
>really is) quadruple playing fields... hell... make it 256 playing fields.
>8 megs Chip mem expandable to 128 megs chip. 8 megs ram expandable to 128.
>All that and a free mousepad.
>List Price: $1199 (w/o monitor)
>Coming this Christmas to a fairy tale near you!
Heh..come on. I think the most guys know what's reasonable for what price.
And one thing is sure: The A4000 is far too expensive for what it offers
if you look at the hardware. This doesn't affect so much old amiga users
like me(I have an A4000) that know that the OS is fantastic.
(Sure it has some design flaws but i know no OS that is so much fun
to use)
Do you think you can get a lot new users to buy Amigas with that specs ?
I doubt it and imho the Amiga can't live forever from his old userbase.
I have had 3 Amigas since 86(still have 2) and i'm sure this is the same
case with a lot other guys here.
IMHO the Amiga market stagnates....
With the A1200 CBM will be able to hold their european market for some
time but if you look at the software market you'll see that the most
software comes from the US and i doubt that the A4000 is good enough
for the US market.
Just face the facts:
o Major US game producers have dropped the Amiga.
o Some old amiga software companies are trying to port
their apps to other platforms.
Sure you can ignore the bad news....it's the easy way
I prefer to be realistic but i'm sure this letter will
change nothing so it's probably waste of net bandwidth
Regards.
--
Ralph Schmidt la...@uni-paderborn.de
University of Paderborn (Germany)
S J Anderson
>Even if I did know who those guys were I wouldn't reveal it. Their jobs
>at Commodore are insecure enough as it is.
>
>You seem skeptical that those two guys really are insiders. This was Deb's
>conference and she vouched for them. If they're not really insiders then:
>
>1. The whole thing is a fraud and Deb is a thumping liar.
>
>2. Deb is stupid enough to be gulled by a couple of phony insiders.
>
>I can't accept either of the above. If they are not insiders then who
>do you think they are and why did Deb vouch for them?
>
>I'll ask Denny what he thinks and let you know.
Well, I've just round to trundling through that immense article, so here are
my thoughts:
a) Are they insiders? Possibly. If not, good actors - but such people *do*
exist.
b) Are they engineers? Doubtful. They were so vague. Plus they didn't seem to
know an awful lot. They told us nothing we didn't already know or had guessed.
Which, incidentally, hurts their claim to be insiders. A lot of what they said
sounded like they could have belonged to the technical staff of a magazine -
typical magazine half-info, half-guesswork. Plus they were unaware of C=
plans to turn CD32 into a home VR system - in fact they emphatically denied
that it had even been thought about. Also, one would have expected the name of
Lew Eggebrecht to have brought forwards a little more reaction if they were
really engineers.
So. They didn't tell us anything new. They may well have been insiders, but
we already knew everything they told us. What the hell is everybody so
depressed about? They never said that C= is dropping the Amiga as a computer.
What they said was that computer development is being held up due to the cash
flow crisis, and that they're relying on the CD32 to set them back on track and
give them the capital to further develop. We all knew that Commodore was on
shaky ground. We all knew that Christmas decides the future of C=. We all knew
that Commodore are idiots when it comes to marketing.
As for their claims that the Amiga is dating too fast, I'm finding that hard
to believe. You can't get new technology except at obscenely high prices, and
with today's modular systems, the power of the base system is becoming a less
important issue. Whether or not it dates, IMO, will depend on how fast they
get the AAA set out.
Nothing to panic about. Worry, yes, but not panic. The best you can do is
wait for Christmas and keep your fingers crossed.
Stephen
csx...@scs.leeds.ac.uk\\ Universal Turing Machine for sale - two spare tapes.
S J Anderson
>I think some posters should stop shooting at the messenger here and start
>concentrating on the message. Apparently there is no doubt that this conference
>took place on Genie and what reason should these two "false insiders" have to
>say what they did if they were not real. If you don't like what you hear, it
>doesn't mean it's not true...
While I mostly agree, "what reason" ?!!! How about, they could be employed
by somebody else who wants to spread a little doom and gloom? Or they're
jaundiced ex-employees?