Sylvia Layne
A.W. Oakden
"The Exotic Adventures of Sylvia Layne"
I would be interested in (constructive!) critisism from players about any
aspects of the game.
I personally feel that it is not bad but could have been improved by better
graphics. I'm not trying to sell it here! Thats really up to 4D!
I have some personal views on the subject of conversions of games from other
formats which may be of interest:
The biggest critism of the home grown games seems to be poor graphics. But
it is difficult to justify investing thousands of pounds in proffesional
artwork if a game is only going to sell a few thousand copies. The only
solution seems to be to aim the product at a much larger user base, eg PC
and then convert it to minority formats like the Acorn. This aproach tends
to produce games which are targeted at the lowest common denominator in
terms of hardware, eg the Amiga500. Conversions to better machines suffer
because the extra facilities the machine offers are not used.
So converted stuff tends to be poor from the technical point of view and
home grown tends to suffer from naff presentation.
But I suppose this is old hat. I do not know what the answer is. Quite
frankly unless Sylvia sells exceptionally well I simply will not be able to
justify doing another game for the Arch.
If I do do another project I think I will approach it quite differently. I am tempted to try coding the main body of the game in C and writing
library functions for the tricky bits in ARM.
Also I am tempted to design the graphics for the best possible machine
rather than the worst and then convert them to what ever format is required
for each conversion.
For anyone playing the game, best of luck it is quite tricky!!!
Tony Oakden.
James Byrne
> The biggest critism of the home grown games seems to be poor graphics.
> But it is difficult to justify investing thousands of pounds in
> proffesional artwork if a game is only going to sell a few thousand
> copies.
Professional looking graphics need not necessarily cost thousands of
pounds, it is a really a question of getting hold of someone who knows
what they're doing. It sometimes seems to me that people producing
home-grown stuff often decide this is a lost cause before they start and
don't even bother trying to get someone in who can do a decent job. This
comment isn't aimed at you, by the way (I haven't actually seen Syliva
Layne yet), just a general observation.
One of the reasons I started doing conversions for the Arc, many years
ago, was that I was fed up with the quality of most Arc games compared
to what was available on the Amiga/ST. Things aren't as bad now as they
were then, but the situation hasn't improved as much as I might have
hoped either.
> Also I am tempted to design the graphics for the best possible machine
> rather than the worst and then convert them to what ever format is
> required for each conversion.
A reasonable proposition, up to a point, but the capability of the
artist is much more significant than the capability of the machine -
compare most ST/Amiga games in 16 colours to a certain well known Arc
games in 256 colours.
James.
James Byrne @ GST Software Products.
Meadow Lane, St Ives, Cambridgeshire, PE17 4LG, United Kingdom.
Tel: 44 (0)480 496789. Fax: 44 (0)480 496189.
E-mail: jby...@gst-soft.demon.co.uk
Bob Voisey
>4D have just released a game, that I designed / coded, called;
>"The Exotic Adventures of Sylvia Layne"
Wasn't this first advertised a couple of years ago?
>I would be interested in (constructive!) critisism from players about any
>aspects of the game.
Well... the scrolling is very smooth, and the action is quite nicely
implemented.
>I personally feel that it is not bad but could have been improved by better
>graphics. I'm not trying to sell it here! Thats really up to 4D!
It must be said that the graphics are truly awlful. They completely spoil
the rest of the game, which I think has LOTS of potential. With decent
graphics it could have been very slick.
>The biggest critism of the home grown games seems to be poor graphics. But
>it is difficult to justify investing thousands of pounds in proffesional
>artwork if a game is only going to sell a few thousand copies. The only
True, but if you don't invest in graphics you won't even sell that many.
We spent a lot of money on Phaethon, and I'm not sure whether it's actually
going to pay for itself or not. However, if we hadn't put in the nice
graphics and music I'm CERTAIN it wouldn't have sold.
I don't think that this is a problem with home grown games in general. It
should be the responsibility of the publisher to provide the graphics and
sound - not the author. Given the game that 4D have published, I would
have spent a little on some tidy graphics and some decent music (just a
grand or two would have done the job) and published it in about 6 months
time. I'd also have spent some money on the cover graphics - 4D's
packaging is DREADFUL!
>solution seems to be to aim the product at a much larger user base, eg PC
>and then convert it to minority formats like the Acorn.
That's the most common technique these days. We hope to publish mainly
original material on the System Interrupt label.
>But I suppose this is old hat. I do not know what the answer is. Quite
>frankly unless Sylvia sells exceptionally well I simply will not be able to
>justify doing another game for the Arch.
All 4D games sell reasonably because all dealers automatically buy at least
one copy. However even if it sells incredibly well, don't expect to get
rich in the Acorn market! The best bet for Acorn programmers is to get a
decent advance and not expect to make any more. If the game does sell,
and you get some royalties as well, then it comes as a nice surprise ;-)
>If I do do another project I think I will approach it quite differently. I am
> tempted to try coding the main body of the game in C and writing
>library functions for the tricky bits in ARM.
That's how we did Noddy. Most people are amazed when you suggest writing
animations in C, but they don't realise that this is amply fast enough
provided the redraws etc are in hand optimised asm. From my experience,
however, this sort of code doesn't tend to be terribly portable.
>For anyone playing the game, best of luck it is quite tricky!!!
Agreed. If it doesn't sell, don't be disheartened - I think you've done
a pretty good with the code and design - but 4D have let you down by not
investing in sound & gfx.
Bob
--
Go away, else I shall taunt you a second time.
b...@cryton.demon.co.uk vox+44(749)670058 fax+44(749)670809 dat+44(749)670030
Mr G L Moore
cs...@keele.ac.uk (A.W. Oakden) writes:
>4D have just released a game, that I designed / coded, called;
>
>"The Exotic Adventures of Sylvia Layne"
>
>I would be interested in (constructive!) critisism from players about any
>aspects of the game.
>
>I personally feel that it is not bad but could have been improved by better
>graphics. I'm not trying to sell it here! Thats really up to 4D!
>
>I have some personal views on the subject of conversions of games from other
>formats which may be of interest:
>
>The biggest critism of the home grown games seems to be poor graphics. But
>it is difficult to justify investing thousands of pounds in proffesional
>artwork if a game is only going to sell a few thousand copies. The only
>solution seems to be to aim the product at a much larger user base, eg PC
>and then convert it to minority formats like the Acorn. This aproach tends
>to produce games which are targeted at the lowest common denominator in
>terms of hardware, eg the Amiga500. Conversions to better machines suffer
>because the extra facilities the machine offers are not used.
>
>
>So converted stuff tends to be poor from the technical point of view and
>home grown tends to suffer from naff presentation.
>
At the recent Acorn World show I asked one of the blokes on the 4D stand why
they didn't employ a graphics artist for any of their titles.
He told me that the graphics in their games were fine, and that the reviewers'
opinions were just that - opinions. (I'd cited the fact that all three reviews
of Dungeon I saw - in BAU, AC and AW - said 'nice game, shame about the
graphics'). The 4D bloke actually said "I'd like to see them do better"!!!
(Referring to the reviewers I assume).
He then pointed at the Dungeon box and said "Look at old Charlie boy, he looks
fine doesn't he?" (pointing at a terribly-drawn character on the cover) at
which point the poor guy was looking terribly confused and I realised he wasn't
going to give me a constructive answer, so I left it at that and wandered off.
--
Gareth Moore G.L....@csv.warwick.ac.uk
A.W. Oakden
Sylvia is not my first game although it is my first project for the
Arch. So I am not entirely naive about possible income.
I began coding the game nearly three years ago but had to shelve it
when it became evident that I simply did not have the time to finish it
to a decent standard ( I had just started my degree)
I asked for constructive critism and you replied;
>
> It must be said that the graphics are truly awlful. They completely spoil
> the rest of the game, which I think has LOTS of potential. With decent
> graphics it could have been very slick.
>
Hmmm.. When I said constructive critism...
I do not think the graphics are awlful! But that is just my opinion.
You go on to mention a project of your own;
> True, but if you don't invest in graphics you won't even sell that many.
> We spent a lot of money on Phaethon, and I'm not sure whether it's actually
> going to pay for itself or not. However, if we hadn't put in the nice
> graphics and music I'm CERTAIN it wouldn't have sold.
>
What exactly is the point in undertaking a
project which will at best only produce a negligable proffit?
Perhaps it would be better to abandon the Arch altogether.
Obviously I do not want to appear to be "biting the hand that feeds",
but apart from loaning hardware and software 4Ds support of
programmers is poor. We are at the stage now where loading
screens and all incidental graphics are the respnsibilty of the
programmers. I even had to produce the impression layout for the
manual.
However I must point out that this was the same with Superior when I
worked for them.
I agree with you over the packaging however, It really is cr*p! I
had nothing to do with it!
With another three months we could have made it better. But I have
now started a PhD and was afraid that it might be another three years
before the damn thing was finished if it did not go out now! That
does not mean that I feel the game is incomplete. It is not. Its
just that you have to draw the line somewhere.
Any more comments?
Jordan K. Hubbard
> It must be said that the graphics are truly awlful. They completely spoil
> the rest of the game, which I think has LOTS of potential. With decent
> graphics it could have been very slick.
>
Hmmm.. When I said constructive critism...
Well, there is constructive criticism and there is constructive
criticism.. I think he was making a valid point: Take a diamond and
plap a cow pat on top of it and all anyone sees is the cow pat.
Sometimes rushing a game out with naff graphics is worse than just
sitting on the idea for a couple of years until you can do it right.
A lot of modern gaming success stories have been simple ideas that
could have been done 5 years ago as easily as today, but were simply
done well and at the right time. I see no reason to rush something if
it's just going to turn around and give you a black eye in the eyes of
the game playing public.
What exactly is the point in undertaking a
project which will at best only produce a negligable proffit?
Perhaps it would be better to abandon the Arch altogether.
If your target market is games, then yes - I think you're perfectly
correct. Now before I get flames from people saying `HEY, THERE ARE
GAMES ON THE ARCH! GOOD GAMES! FINE GAMES! I HAVE PIRATED VERSIONS
OF ALL OF THEM! (:-)", please note that I'm not saying that the Arch
is totally hopeless for games - simply that it's a VERY SMALL market
and you'd have to be hopelessly in love with the machine or simply
naive to assume that writing games for the single, niche market that
the Arch represents is going to earn you significant money at all.
If you want to make a bundle, you write for the PC or the Amiga. You
can make an even bigger pile writing for the consoles, but the
development system costs keep the small guys (possibly deliberately)
out, so this is a tougher market to get into. If you write for the
Amiga 500 and Amiga 600 crowd, you generally will make enough to at
least keep the lights on and the doors open, though piracy will also
sting you pretty badly.. The gaming world is waiting for CDROM,
*anybody's* CDROM, to take over at this point since cartridges are too
damn expensive and everything else gets the hell pirated out of it.
It's a shame..
Jordan
--
(Jordan K. Hubbard) j...@violet.berkeley.edu, j...@al.org, j...@whisker.lotus.ie
Bob Voisey
>Sylvia is not my first game although it is my first project for the
>Arch. So I am not entirely naive about possible income.
Sorry, I didn't mean my post to come across as patronising.
>Hmmm.. When I said constructive critism...
Well, that's my opinion and I thought it was constructive. If 4D had bought
better graphics the game would have been a magnitude of times better. True,
they're not awlful by Archimedes standards, but take a look at 16-bit and
console games sometime..
>What exactly is the point in undertaking a
>project which will at best only produce a negligable proffit?
Good question. What's the point of being in the Acorn market at all? It's
certainly not for the money - a couple of companies make a killing but none
of the small ones do (I doubt whether even 4D are raking it in). Anyway,
you should be able to answer your own question, seeing as you yourself are
in that boat as well!
>Perhaps it would be better to abandon the Arch altogether.
It would certainly be better financially (although other markets are hard
for a small company to break into). I'm not writing any software at all for
the Archimedes now - however I am working with ARM based specialist systems,
which I think is a good compromise between profit and fun.
>Obviously I do not want to appear to be "biting the hand that feeds",
>but apart from loaning hardware and software 4Ds support of
>programmers is poor.
This is typical of 99% of games publishers. From a good software house you
should expect:
- Loan of any hardware/software required (or as an advance or royalties)
- Realistic advance (a couple of grand, say)
- Royalty dependent on the magnitude of advance (maybe 15% - 25%)
- Graphics and artworks provided
- Sound and effects provided
- Packaging and documentation provided
That's the kind of package an experienced programmer could easily get if he
was writing for other platforms (if he's really lucky he'll avoid royalties
altogether and get COD). I can only think of one or two Arch publishers
who would offer something like that, though.
Cheers
John Elliot
K. Hubbard) writes:
# If you want to make a bundle, you write for the PC or the Amiga. You
# can make an even bigger pile writing for the consoles, but the
# development system costs keep the small guys (possibly deliberately)
# out, so this is a tougher market to get into. If you write for the
What sort of money are you talking about for console development? It's
something I've been thinking about as an alternative to real :-) jobs.
Do these companies (eg. 3DO) charge simply to be a developer, or is it the
hardware set up costs that put people off?
Any comments on the feasability/cost of this appreciated.
John.
Bob Voisey
>What sort of money are you talking about for console development? It's
>something I've been thinking about as an alternative to real :-) jobs.
>Do these companies (eg. 3DO) charge simply to be a developer, or is it the
>hardware set up costs that put people off?
With, for example, the 3DO you need to spend a couple of grand on the
development kit and you also need a Quadra to run it on. I would expect
that you could recover your investment (several times over) on the first
game.
Mr L E Stubbs
>plap a cow pat on top of it and all anyone sees is the cow pat.
Nicely put!
>If you want to make a bundle, you write for the PC or the Amiga. You
The way Commodore is going, I don't think I'd buy one of their computers, or
write for them. But if you write games in C then it should be much easier to
write them for Acorn computers, PCs and Amigas all at the same time! :)
Hiss, boo to David Braben, by the way. He could have released the Beeb version
before the PC version.
A G Jackson
|> Hiss, boo to David Braben, by the way. He could have released the Beeb version
|> before the PC version.
I take it you mean Frontier. Given the response Amiga owners are having, I
should think it's a good thing the Arc version wasn't one of the first batch to
come out.
If any Arc version of frontier doesn't have an ARM3 version with all the added
features of the PC version in it, I will be very annoyed.
Adrian
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Adrian Jackson | a.g.j...@durham.ac.uk | 27 North Bailey, DURHAM |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| "That's right," he said. "We're philosophers. We think, therefore we am."|
| -- (Terry Pratchett, Small Gods) |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Ian Rawlings
>In article <2d1ee5$r...@lily.csv.warwick.ac.uk>, ma...@csv.warwick.ac.uk (Mr L E Stubbs) writes:
>|> Hiss, boo to David Braben, by the way. He could have released the Beeb version
>|> before the PC version.
>I take it you mean Frontier. Given the response Amiga owners are having, I
>should think it's a good thing the Arc version wasn't one of the first batch to
>come out.
>If any Arc version of frontier doesn't have an ARM3 version with all the added
>features of the PC version in it, I will be very annoyed.
If it is anywhere *NEAR* as slow as the amiga version, I'll be REALLY annoyed.
It's like playing a game in a nightclub, but the music is even WORSE.
2-3 frames per second in low graphics quality mode is ludicrous.
>Adrian
Ian
--
=+=+=+=+=+ 8< =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+ 8< =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+ 8< =+=+=+=+=+=+=+
Mr Ian Rawlings, Telephone Reading (0734) 661431
EMAIL ssur...@susssys1.rdg.ac.uk
A.W. Oakden
for above and KV.
KV does not work at all and crashes either imediately or
after a very short time.
I have a A440 with Arm3 and Riscos2
Phaethon (sorry for spelling Bob!) Also sometimes refuses to
load but only after I have opened the hard disc icon which
starts up several processess including 'placeit' and the
cache control modules. Most of the programs that I have run
perfectly well with this arrangement but I have noticed that
one or two recent ones (dungeon!) fall over, why is this?
I would be interested to know if you think that you have
gained any extra sales from the demo, Bob. I volunteered to
produce a demo but 4D said that they did not think it was a
good idea. Rick at 4D pointed out;
(1) If someone plays a demo and they do not like it they will
not buy the game.
(2) If the demo is substantial enough to give a good flavour of the
game then some people will be satisfied with it and will not buy
complete version (most acorn players are tight fisted!).
I am not sure that this reasoning is valid so I would value
your views.
Incidentely I mentioned that I was not entirely happy with
4Ds support during the production of Sylvia. I should
mention that it was entirely my fault that the game was not
released two years ago and this failure on my part must have
cost them for advertising etc. When I first presented them
with the game they did say that they where prepared to find
thrid parties for graphics etc but when I re-presented it to
them there was insufficient time (All the graphics were
produced by either me or my girlfriend and there are a lot!).
4D just produced the box cover and advert (although I did the
text). However I suspect that no matter how much time was
available they still would have required me to produce the
complete product. This is somewhat different from the old
idea of a software house who are responsible for the managing
of projects. 4D, and I suspect many of the smaller publishers,
are just that - publishers. They expect the programmers to
be the software development team. This may or may not be
reasonable given the lamentable state of the acorn market.
Tony Oakden.
Tony Langdon
>a.g.j...@durham.ac.uk (A G Jackson) writes:
>
>>In article <2d1ee5$r...@lily.csv.warwick.ac.uk>, ma...@csv.warwick.ac.uk (Mr L E Stubbs) writes:
>>|> Hiss, boo to David Braben, by the way. He could have released the Beeb version
>>|> before the PC version.
>
>>I take it you mean Frontier. Given the response Amiga owners are having, I
>>should think it's a good thing the Arc version wasn't one of the first batch to
>>come out.
>
>>If any Arc version of frontier doesn't have an ARM3 version with all the added
>>features of the PC version in it, I will be very annoyed.
>
>If it is anywhere *NEAR* as slow as the amiga version, I'll be REALLY annoyed.
>It's like playing a game in a nightclub, but the music is even WORSE.
>2-3 frames per second in low graphics quality mode is ludicrous.
>
found it impossible to play. I'm not sure if the frame rate is that low but I find
it impossible to centre an attacking ship in my sights because it is so coarse.
Additionally I think the controls are inferior to those on the Archimedes Elite,the "Mous" if I remember correctly. If anyone converts it to run on the arc hopefully
they'll keep the mouse control the same.
Another moan about it is the coordination required to target a missile. I was having
to direct the ship with the joystick, at the same time trying to click on the
attacking craft with the mouse, much too frenetic. In my opinion the game is
unplayable in its current form on the Amiga I have available. It has the potential
to be a great game but unless I get an Amiga 3000 (or better) the game will stay in
its box.
TTFN
--------
T.Langdon | Email : lang...@jeeves.fi.gs.com
Goldman Sachs International Limited | Phone : +44 71 774 5420
Peterborough Court, 133 Fleet Street, |
London. EC4B 2AA |
Hugo Fiennes
>I have recently got hold of a copy of the acorn user demos
>for above and KV.
>
>KV does not work at all and crashes either imediately or
>after a very short time.
>
>I have a A440 with Arm3 and Riscos2
>
>Phaethon (sorry for spelling Bob!) Also sometimes refuses to
>load but only after I have opened the hard disc icon which
>starts up several processess including 'placeit' and the
>cache control modules. Most of the programs that I have run
>perfectly well with this arrangement but I have noticed that
>one or two recent ones (dungeon!) fall over, why is this?
The demo isn't ro3 compatible - the programmer didn't have an RO2 machine
to hand to try it with - I expect this is the case with many programs now!
Hugo
--
Hugo "I've suffered a fatal internal error and must exit immediately" Fiennes
alt...@cryton.demon.co.uk / vox +44 749 670058 / bbs +44 749 670030 2:252/102
----------------------------- "...and that was my last treated digestive too"
Mark Anderson
> I have recently got hold of a copy of the acorn user demos
> for above and KV.
> KV does not work at all and crashes either imediately or
> after a very short time.
> I have a A440 with Arm3 and Riscos2
I've also had a problem with the KV demo. It hangs up on my machine, usually
giving an "Internal Error" message.
I've got an A5000 with RiscOs 3.0.
Mark.
Simon Burrows
>I've also had a problem with the KV demo. It hangs up on my machine, usually
>giving an "Internal Error" message.
>
>I've got an A5000 with RiscOs 3.0.
In general, you can't really expect software houses to support RISC OS 3.0.
It's enough hassle supporting 2.0 and 3.1, without 3.0 as well! Upgrade!
(I bought an A5000 RISC OS 3.11 upgrade pack yesterday for UKP 2.00 in
a clearance sale of obsolete stock :-)).
-- Simon
Dave Lodge
>
> >I have recently got hold of a copy of the acorn user demos
> >for above and KV.
> >
> >KV does not work at all and crashes either imediately or
> >after a very short time.
I managed to get this working by de-archiving it and switching off the tune
Dave
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|'..."Any man who talks to his tools is clearly mad. | Dave Lodge |
| But any man who talks to them and gets an answer | |
| could well be dangerous." | email: |
| "You'll need a doctor's note" said the teapot.' | se2...@dmu.ac.uk |
| - from 'The Book of Ultimate Truths' | |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Dave Lodge
I apologise If I have already posrted this - but my news reader is not
being nice to me :)
You can get the KV demo to work by dearchiving it to another disc first
Dave
> Mark.
Nathan Marcus Kidd
>
>>I take it you mean Frontier. Given the response Amiga owners are having, I
>>should think it's a good thing the Arc version wasn't one of the first batch to
>>come out.
>
>>If any Arc version of frontier doesn't have an ARM3 version with all the added
>>features of the PC version in it, I will be very annoyed.
>
Why on earth do you want frontier?
I've played the pc version and its absolutely useless - hybrid
elite gold is more fun to play...
Nathan
--
A G Jackson
|> In article <ssurawls.754334111@reading> ssur...@reading.ac.uk (Ian Rawlings) writes:
No he didn't, actually. I did.
|> >
|> >>I take it you mean Frontier. Given the response Amiga owners are having, I
|> >>should think it's a good thing the Arc version wasn't one of the first batch to
|> >>come out.
|> >
|> >>If any Arc version of frontier doesn't have an ARM3 version with all the added
|> >>features of the PC version in it, I will be very annoyed.
|> >
|>
|> Why on earth do you want frontier?
|> I've played the pc version and its absolutely useless - hybrid
|> elite gold is more fun to play...
So, the Arc version of Elite from Hybrid was better than the PC one - so why
can't they just do the same with Frontier? Anyway, Frontier seems to be horribly
buggy at the moment. If the Arc version could actually *work*, unlike the Amiga
and PC ones, that would be impressive.
Adrian
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Adrian Jackson | a.g.j...@durham.ac.uk | 27 North Bailey, DURHAM |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Holly: Ahead groove factor 5! Yeah! |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------+
John E. Veness
> I agree, I bought it for my Amiga 500+ (which I purchased as a games machine) and
> found it impossible to play. I'm not sure if the frame rate is that low but I find
> it impossible to centre an attacking ship in my sights because it is so coarse.
> Additionally I think the controls are inferior to those on the Archimedes Elite,the "Mous" if I remember correctly. If anyone converts it to run on the arc hopefully
> they'll keep the mouse control the same.
Yes I agree that the mouse control on PC/Amiga Frontier is not as good
as Archie Elite 1. I can just about handle the fact that you may not
be facing the way you are moving, but I don't like the fact that you
have to keep lifting up the mouse and dragging it, just to keep
turning. I use (on the Arc) the option where the mouse acts more like
a joystick, ie it doesn't autocentre, so that if you pull it down, it
will keep 'climbing' until you push it forward. Makes things a lot
easier once you get used to it - you feel *empowered* using it, not
all silly wobbling around.
Another thing I didn't like about Frontier is that there is little mystery
to it. The manual seems to tell you about all of the equipment that
you can get, even things which you wouldn;t be able to get for some
time, like turret guns etc (for passanger ships etc). Also the
display where equipment come up is compartmented into little boxes, so
there will be little surprises for equipment. The manual does mention
rumours about things the millitary is working on, but I think these
are onlt more powerful version of things already. I'm willing to be
proved wrong, though!
Pel
-- _
John Veness |_)_ | _, _, _
jo...@dcs.rhbnc.ac.uk | (_'|(_|(_|(_)
(_)
mn...@minster.york.ac.uk
This was either due to it being too difficult to
change the demos in time to make them work
(I did the music and fx for KV and I can tell you
that the demo must have been done quickly, considering
when I sent the stuff to the programmer),
or it's some marketing ploy to make people buy
RISCOS 3 (???).
As for 4D, I'm very fed up with them for reasons
I cannot mention.
-
Mark.
Warren Burch
>> I agree, I bought it for my Amiga 500+ (which I purchased as a games machine) and
>> found it impossible to play. I'm not sure if the frame rate is that low but I find
>> it impossible to centre an attacking ship in my sights because it is so coarse.
>> Additionally I think the controls are inferior to those on the Archimedes Elite,the "Mous" if I remember correctly. If anyone converts it to run on the arc hopefully
>> they'll keep the mouse control the same.
>Yes I agree that the mouse control on PC/Amiga Frontier is not as good
>as Archie Elite 1. I can just about handle the fact that you may not
>be facing the way you are moving, but I don't like the fact that you
>have to keep lifting up the mouse and dragging it, just to keep
>turning. I use (on the Arc) the option where the mouse acts more like
>a joystick, ie it doesn't autocentre, so that if you pull it down, it
>will keep 'climbing' until you push it forward. Makes things a lot
>easier once you get used to it - you feel *empowered* using it, not
>all silly wobbling around.
Its nice to see that after all the initial interia people are finally
enjoying using the Mouse in Elite. I always thought it was the best &
quickest method of attaining a specific attitude but it was regarded
with distaste at first, we even had one gentleman return Elite on the
grounds that the controls were completely unusable. I can't believe
anybody can fly with the 'non-autocentre' mode though. How do you
find docking manually?
-Warren
Bob Voisey
>or it's some marketing ploy to make people buy
>RISCOS 3 (???).
Developers are not encouraged to support RISCOS2 any more.. people really
_should_ think about upgrading soon, before the price doubles.
VENESS J
: Tony Langdon (lang...@jeeves.fi.gs.com) wrote:
Actually, *I* wrote the thing Warren was following up to.
: >I use (on the Arc) the option where the mouse acts more like
: >a joystick, ie it doesn't autocentre, so that if you pull it down, it
: >will keep 'climbing' until you push it forward. Makes things a lot
: >easier once you get used to it - you feel *empowered* using it, not
: >all silly wobbling around.
: Its nice to see that after all the initial interia people are finally
: enjoying using the Mouse in Elite. I always thought it was the best &
: quickest method of attaining a specific attitude but it was regarded
: with distaste at first, we even had one gentleman return Elite on the
: grounds that the controls were completely unusable. I can't believe
: anybody can fly with the 'non-autocentre' mode though. How do you
: find docking manually?
: -Warren
Erm, are we talking about the same thing? I'm not too sure on my terminology,
because I haven't played the game in a while. *Non*-autocentring is where if
you move the mouse left, say, and leave it, it will continue to rotate, yes?
Well in that case that is exactly how I manually dock. Just line up with the
hole, move the mouse sideways until the rotate speed matches, then thrust.
*Much* easier than having to keep picking up the mouse and pushing it left,
especially when you have a dodgy mouse like I do.
Mind you, I know a person (Piers, to those who know), who claims to be able to
manually dock at full speed without spending a long time lining up. He says
he just flies towards the station, keeps it to his left and looks out the left
view. He knows the exact timing for when to use the yaw boosters to swing
into the station! I actually didn't like the way yaw boosters worked whe
using non-autocentre, which was a shame.
I. Anderson
>Actually, *I* wrote the thing Warren was following up to.
>: >I use (on the Arc) the option where the mouse acts more like
>: >a joystick, ie it doesn't autocentre, so that if you pull it down, it
>: >will keep 'climbing' until you push it forward. Makes things a lot
>: >easier once you get used to it - you feel *empowered* using it, not
>: >all silly wobbling around.
>: Its nice to see that after all the initial interia people are finally
>: enjoying using the Mouse in Elite. I always thought it was the best &
>: quickest method of attaining a specific attitude but it was regarded
>: with distaste at first, we even had one gentleman return Elite on the
>: grounds that the controls were completely unusable. I can't believe
>: anybody can fly with the 'non-autocentre' mode though. How do you
>: find docking manually?
>: -Warren
I find the best control method for elite on the arc is the analog joystick.
Unfortunately this is impossible, so...Build a cable to interface BBC user
port to arc mouse connector (9-pin mini din - b*stard to wire up), write a
small program for the beeb that sits reading the ADC and zaps out pulses to the
user port to simulate mouse movements / button presses.
Result : perfect responsive control just like the good old days. I can even
drive the pointer around the desktop for saving the file etc.
Problems : New elite is far faster and harder than it used to be. Because it
can handle loads of on-screen without stopping it's actually able to kill me
off. Also adjusting the speed using the BBC keyboard and using the arc keyboard
for everything else takes some getting used to.
Other info : The diagram of the mouse port in the A5000 Welcome guide is wrong.
The 5V output (which I don't need) is transposed with one of the X signals.
It's a credit to the design of the two machines that I didn't break anything
while trying to assert 0V on the 5V line! For sticks, I still use the old black
plastic non-self-centering ones with the beeb owl logo on them. After many
years of use they are still going strong and are a piece of cake to fix (like
when in a moment of stress I pushed the fire button thru its mountings into the
case)
I think its a shame that the joystick standard on the A-machines is the
switched type. This is one area where the PCs seem to have got it right.
Iain
-----------------------------
Iain.A...@newcastle.ac.uk
"Ni!" - Monty Python
Tor Houghton
: Yes I agree that the mouse control on PC/Amiga Frontier is not as good
: as Archie Elite 1. I can just about handle the fact that you may not
This is where you turn the autopilot on and hope you kill him before he
runs into you. ;)
Tor.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
email: to...@cogs.sussex.ac.uk "Then we will wonder if machines
will steal each others dreams."