Style Guide and !NewLook

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Neil Hoggarth

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Oct 11, 1993, 3:54:07 AM10/11/93
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On Friday I got home from work to discover that the RISC OS 3 Style
Guide had finally arrived. As an unexpected bonus the package also
contained a copy of the NewLook disc which we have been told to expect
at the Acorn Show.

In this article I describe the new look and feel for the benfit of those
who haven't bought PRMs and give my first reactions to the guide and the
new style - in the hope of provoking some debate.

The guide is 130 pages long and is pretty comprehensive. It covers the
all the design issues about how applications should "look and feel" and
gives plenty of examples in the form of diagrams and screen dumps. Later
chapters give the details which, in conjunction with the PRMs,
programmers will need to actually implement the interface that has been
described.

I was somewhat suprised by the guide in several respects. The first
unexpected thing is that it deals solely with the new 3D look (the
"NewLook") and the existing flat interface isn't discussed at all. Given
the existance of the CMOS configuration bit to indicate whether or not
to use a 3D look (RISC OS 3 PRM page 3-34) I would have thought there
was still a need to document the old style interface. Apparently there
was a RISC OS 2 style guide but I never had one, so a discussion of both
styles would have been welcome.

If you want a good idea of the new look and feel then simply look at
member of the Impression family. The whole new style is basically copied
from the Computer Concepts house style. This includes the feel as well
as the look. The "select a block, move or copy block" paradigm for
manipulating text which has been with us since View on the BBC B is
gone, replaced by "cut or copy block to clipboard, paste from clipboard"
method used in Impression. When interacting with a dialogue box the
RETURN key is now defined to activate the default action button (OK,
PRINT or whatever) completing the dialogue, rather than taking you to
the next field as was previously the case.

One thing which is presumably not Computer Concepts inspired is the
section on page 91 - "Choice of programming language: We strongly urge
you to program using C".

I don't really have a problem with the look (which in RISC OS 3 is
largely customisable anyway) but the feel does concern me somewhat. No
doubt a good case can be made for the changes. However it seems strange
that in a document which is after all about promoting consistancy across
applications that Acorn should make apparantly arbitary changes to the
behaviour an interface which many of us have been using for years and
which we have got used to.

It will be a while until a major revision of the OS comes out (remember
how long it took them last time?) and this means that many users will be
using ROM versions of Edit, Paint and Draw with the old behaviour for a
long time to come. The look of these applications can be patched with
new templates using !NewLook but you can't change their feel without
replacing them with new versions.

The NewLook application provides basically two things. Firstly the
cosmetic bits of the 3D interface such as the new tool sprites (back
icon, close icon, scroll bars, etc.) and the backdrops. This is 3D
marbled look which has been cropping up in screen shots in the Acorn
magazines recently. Secondly, new templates for existing applications to
give them the new appearance an a new set of icon sprites to use with
them. The templates come in the form of new template files for the
programs on the application discs and a module which does the same thing
for the ROM applications.

I'm not very keen on the new tool sprites. They look a bit too ornate
for my taste and the buttons light up yellow when you press them which
looks rather odd. I've already gone back to using my favourite design,
which are based on the RISC OS 3 ROM set but with light and dark shading
on the edges to give a 3D look and buttons which press in. I haven't
made up my mind yet about the new templates and iconsprites. I'll leave
them in for a while and see if they grow on me.

To sum up on the changes to the interface here's the list from the guide
itself.

Appendix A: Significant changes

* The desktop has changed to offer a 3D option, with new versions of the
standard icons and window components

* Cut and paste has become the standard method of cutting, copying and
moving selections.

* Drag and drop is introduced as a new method of cutting, copying and
moving selectionss, and will eventually exist alongside cut and paste

* Outline menu structures are suggested to help you structure the menu
tree within an application.

* A new font selection mechanism has been introduced to make it easier
for users to make changes such as applying bold or italic to text in
more than one font.

* The save dialogue box now has a selection button so that users may
save a selection if there is one.

* RGB colour selection has changed from fractional 256ths to using
percentages as a means of colour definition.

* The introduction of the pinboard in RISC OS 3 means that windows can
be iconised; a sprite ic_sprite must be supplied for applications to
use to represent iconised windows.

* !Sprites must be accompanied by !Sprites22 to support high resolution
colour screen modes; !Sprites23 can be included to support high
resolution monochrome screen modes.

* There are changes in the way some keys work within dialogue boxes;
more changes will be necessary if PC keyboards are used in the future
with some systems.

BTW, if you post a follow up to this article and feel that you have to
quote then *please* edit it down and only leave in the bits that are
relevent to your response - there is quite a lot of it.Regards,

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Neil Hoggarth, e-mail : ne...@ntlrd.demon.co.uk
Electronic Engineer, PGP 2.3a public key available
Advanced Products Division, NTL. MIME is spoken here
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Bob Voisey

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Oct 11, 1993, 5:10:21 AM10/11/93
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In article <931011075...@ntlrd.demon.co.uk> ne...@ntlrd.demon.co.uk writes:
>One thing which is presumably not Computer Concepts inspired is the
>section on page 91 - "Choice of programming language: We strongly urge
>you to program using C".

I think that this is taking it a bit far.. I fail to see why a style guide
should reccomend any language over another, provided other languages are used
to conform with the front end look & feel.

Incidently, CC might be complying with the guide to a greater degree than
you realise. Apparently Audio Works is written in C.. (has anyone seen
the screenshots? They bear a remarkable similarity to a certain other
Digital Sound EDITor.... the author of which, I believe, is now working for
CC).

Rgds

Bob

--
Go away, else I shall taunt you a second time.

b...@cryton.demon.co.uk vox+44(749)670058 fax+44(749)670809 dat+44(749)670030

L.L.Frederiks

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Oct 11, 1993, 6:01:05 AM10/11/93
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ne...@ntlrd.demon.co.uk (Neil Hoggarth) writes:

>On Friday I got home from work to discover that the RISC OS 3 Style
>Guide had finally arrived. As an unexpected bonus the package also
>contained a copy of the NewLook disc which we have been told to expect
>at the Acorn Show.

Let's hope the Style Guides will soon be send to other countries than
the UK.

>method used in Impression. When interacting with a dialogue box the
>RETURN key is now defined to activate the default action button (OK,
>PRINT or whatever) completing the dialogue, rather than taking you to
>the next field as was previously the case.

I though this was already the 'standard' way. I have written my own
'inquiries' dialogue boxes (in 3D fashion) which use RETURN as
confirmation key and ESCAPE to cancel the dialogue box.

>One thing which is presumably not Computer Concepts inspired is the
>section on page 91 - "Choice of programming language: We strongly urge
>you to program using C".

Ever heard of AudioWorks (= DSEdit II) ? Jason has completely written
the program using C (and much hacking around with objasm).

>that in a document which is after all about promoting consistancy across
>applications that Acorn should make apparantly arbitary changes to the
>behaviour an interface which many of us have been using for years and
>which we have got used to.

We have got used to ? Rememeber that more and more applications, both
commercial and PD, are using the 3D style. Computer Concepts 'invented'
their ABI system already 4 or 5 years ago. The interface remains the
same, the look is different.

>The NewLook application provides basically two things. Firstly the
>cosmetic bits of the 3D interface such as the new tool sprites (back
>icon, close icon, scroll bars, etc.) and the backdrops. This is 3D
>marbled look which has been cropping up in screen shots in the Acorn
>magazines recently. Secondly, new templates for existing applications to
>give them the new appearance an a new set of icon sprites to use with
>them. The templates come in the form of new template files for the
>programs on the application discs and a module which does the same thing
>for the ROM applications.

Hm...I am a little disappointed by the !NewLook application. Acorn is
not playing all their cards on the table (is this English ??). Last
week I have seen the effect of their new filer and wimp modules. During
the Dutch Acorn show someone showed the a completely marbled desktop.
Including the background of the windows and the error boxes. Transparent
sprite dragging (during save operations) and a special feature for
>1 file dragging (something like a bundle of files) was implemented.
This will mean that the new filer/wimp (including outline fonts in the
filer windows) will be launched with RISC OS 4 (????)

>I'm not very keen on the new tool sprites. They look a bit too ornate
>for my taste and the buttons light up yellow when you press them which

Yellow ? Never seen Impression, ArtWorks etc. 'Action button' thus
with a double icon border (like 'OK') must lighy up yellow when pressed.
However, it should be orange...

Loek.

--
---------------------------//|-----------------------------------------
Loek Frederiks //|| TNO Physics and Electronics Laboratory
L.Fre...@fel.tno.nl // || Oude Waalsdorperweg 63, 2597 AK Den Haag
lo...@nt.el.utwente.nl ///||| The Netherlands +31-(0)70-3264221

Keith Marlow PG

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Oct 11, 1993, 6:58:57 AM10/11/93
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In article <1993Oct11....@fel.tno.nl> ll...@fel.tno.nl (L.L.Frederiks) writes:
>ne...@ntlrd.demon.co.uk (Neil Hoggarth) writes:
>
> [a mass of good stuff deleted]

>
>>I'm not very keen on the new tool sprites. They look a bit too ornate
>>for my taste and the buttons light up yellow when you press them which
>
>Yellow ? Never seen Impression, ArtWorks etc. 'Action button' thus
>with a double icon border (like 'OK') must lighy up yellow when pressed.
>However, it should be orange...

One thing that annoyed me was that one is only now allowed to group
action buttons of similar function by position and not by colour as well..
I use to find that an orange background with R5 border used to make a group
of actions (moving around messages) look quite logical. Plus people who were
new to the system, would be able to deduce that if one of the actions in the
set moves to another message then the other actions must do the same as they
are the same colour.. Hmm what use to be a nicely colour balanced dialogue
box has now had an attack of the greys :-)

Also, why do the left, right, up and down sprites appear to be so
small? I know the bounding box can be made bigger than the actual sprite but
one continuously gets the feeling you have to click in the wedge to get
anything to happen, they don't look practical. I'm tempted to make larger
versions, probably called lleft, lright, lup and ldown.

Keith


--
Keith Marlow,SYS P/G,UEA,Norwich * Phone Cyclone BBS on 0603 260973; Arc,Beeb
Norfolk NR4 7TJ * PC files + fidonet echoes + chatzone + Acorn
Archiboard Central 2:2501/405.3 * Support Area : Archiboard multiline BBS s/w
Voice - 0603 745077 ### Tried MS-DOS once.. but didn't inhale ##

S.Burrows

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Oct 11, 1993, 6:56:36 AM10/11/93
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In article <750330...@cryton.demon.co.uk> b...@cryton.demon.co.uk writes:
>Incidently, CC might be complying with the guide to a greater degree than
>you realise. Apparently Audio Works is written in C.. (has anyone seen
>the screenshots? They bear a remarkable similarity to a certain other
>Digital Sound EDITor.... the author of which, I believe, is now working for
>CC).

That's right, the version which CC has been demonstrating at recent shows
and open days says "Copyright Jason Williams" in the info window. They keep
changing the name, I believe that Jason's original name was !Clarion, it
then became 'AudioPhile', followed finally by 'AudioWorks'. Most people
however seemed more interested in other things which CC were demonstrating.
A pity, since it looks to be an exciting package.

-- Simon

cst...@csv.warwick.ac.uk

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Oct 11, 1993, 6:55:31 AM10/11/93
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In article <750330...@cryton.demon.co.uk>,

b...@cryton.demon.co.uk writes:
>In article <931011075...@ntlrd.demon.co.uk> ne...@ntlrd.demon.co.uk writes:
>>One thing which is presumably not Computer Concepts inspired is the
>>section on page 91 - "Choice of programming language: We strongly urge
>>you to program using C".
>
>I think that this is taking it a bit far.. I fail to see why a style guide
>should reccomend any language over another, provided other languages are used
>to conform with the front end look & feel.

Well, according to the first Style Guide (RIP), this is because the
interfaces between a C program and the OS have an extra layer of slow^H^H^H^H
abstraction, so your programs can easily support later versions of the OS.
Also, they said, 'you will find large projects easier to manage if you write
in C rather than say BASIC or Assembler' (OWTTE). The real reason, I suspect
is that RISC_OSlib (painful is its memory) forces you to comply more with the
accepted style. Except for the incorrect menu distances (48 OS units, rather
that 64) :-).
--
Straylight (cst...@csv.warwick.ac.uk)
--
(Straylight)

cst...@csv.warwick.ac.uk

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Oct 11, 1993, 8:38:50 AM10/11/93
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In article <1993Oct11....@fel.tno.nl>,

ll...@fel.tno.nl (L.L.Frederiks) writes:
>>I'm not very keen on the new tool sprites. They look a bit too ornate
>>for my taste and the buttons light up yellow when you press them which
>
>Yellow ? Never seen Impression, ArtWorks etc. 'Action button' thus
>with a double icon border (like 'OK') must lighy up yellow when pressed.
>However, it should be orange...

Sez who? My buttons light up cream (colour 12). Admittedly, this as due to a mistake I made about 4 years ago
when I couldn't remember that it should be orange (14, I think). But I
liked it, and that's the way it's staying.
--
___ / cst...@csv.warwick.ac.uk
(___ /_ __ ___ / ' ___ /__ /_ /
____) (__ / (__(_ (__( (_ (_ (__( ( (_ (__ / `Why stop now, just when I'm
_____) _____) / hating it?' (Marvin)

Neil Hoggarth

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Oct 11, 1993, 9:03:50 AM10/11/93
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In article <CEqBu...@sys.uea.ac.uk>,

Keith Marlow PG <mar...@sys.uea.ac.uk> wrote:
>
> Also, why do the left, right, up and down sprites appear to be so
> small? I know the bounding box can be made bigger than the actual sprite but
> one continuously gets the feeling you have to click in the wedge to get
> anything to happen, they don't look practical. I'm tempted to make larger
> versions, probably called lleft, lright, lup and ldown.
>

I'm tempted to replace the whole new iconsprites set with something
which looks a bit nicer :-). However as I said earlier I'll give it a
few weeks to see if it grows on me.

L.L.Frederiks

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Oct 11, 1993, 8:44:00 AM10/11/93
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psy...@unicorn.nott.ac.uk (S.Burrows) writes:

>That's right, the version which CC has been demonstrating at recent shows
>and open days says "Copyright Jason Williams" in the info window. They keep
>changing the name, I believe that Jason's original name was !Clarion, it
>then became 'AudioPhile', followed finally by 'AudioWorks'. Most people
>however seemed more interested in other things which CC were demonstrating.
>A pity, since it looks to be an exciting package.

I have heard that the name 'AudioPhile' was already registered by another
company. In the latest Acorn User is a 'luxerious' advertisement of CC
with some screen shots of Impression Style (something like the Advance
word processor), WordWorks, AudioWorks and Eagle M2. Eagle M2 seems to
be a promising package: capturing of replay movies, MIDI support etc.

I have heard that Jason will be at the show. So, perhaps we can show
some interest in his program.

Denis Howe

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Oct 12, 1993, 6:28:07 AM10/12/93
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In article <931011075...@ntlrd.demon.co.uk>
ne...@ntlrd.demon.co.uk (Neil Hoggarth) wrote about the RISC OS Style
Guide:

>When interacting with a dialogue box the RETURN key is now defined to
>activate the default action button (OK, PRINT or whatever) completing
>the dialogue, rather than taking you to the next field as was
>previously the case.

Does that mean that if there is no default icon Return does nothing?
Do you always have to use arrows or the mouse to move between fields?
I hope not.
--
Denis Howe <d...@doc.ic.ac.uk>
The Free On-Line Dictionary of Computing
Gopher/FTP wombat.doc.ic.ac.uk (146.169.22.42)

Philip Hazel

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Oct 12, 1993, 10:06:23 AM10/12/93
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In article <DBH.93Oc...@wombat.doc.ic.ac.uk>, d...@doc.ic.ac.uk (Denis Howe) writes:
|> Does that mean that if there is no default icon Return does nothing?
|> Do you always have to use arrows or the mouse to move between fields?
|> I hope not.

Yes. Like you, I regret this. I also regularly get caught by it. :-(

Philip

--
Philip Hazel University Computing Service,
ph...@cus.cam.ac.uk New Museums Site, Cambridge CB2 3QG,
P.H...@ucs.cam.ac.uk England. Phone: +44 223 334714

Neil Hoggarth

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Oct 12, 1993, 9:17:52 AM10/12/93
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In article <1993Oct11....@fel.tno.nl>,
L.L.Frederiks <ll...@fel.tno.nl> wrote:

> ne...@ntlrd.demon.co.uk (Neil Hoggarth) writes:
>
> >method used in Impression. When interacting with a dialogue box the
> >RETURN key is now defined to activate the default action button (OK,
> >PRINT or whatever) completing the dialogue, rather than taking you to
> >the next field as was previously the case.
>
> I though this was already the 'standard' way. I have written my own
> 'inquiries' dialogue boxes (in 3D fashion) which use RETURN as
> confirmation key and ESCAPE to cancel the dialogue box.
>

Nope. Try the version of Edit in the RISC OS 3.1 ROM. Load it and bring
up the search and replace dialog box (F4). Type something in the search
field and press RETURN. The carat moves to the replace writable icon for
you to enter something - it's only if the carat is in the last writable
icon of such a dialogue box that RETURN completes the dialogue.

cst...@csv.warwick.ac.uk

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Oct 12, 1993, 1:52:27 PM10/12/93
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In article <1993Oct12....@infodev.cam.ac.uk>,

ph...@cus.cam.ac.uk (Philip Hazel) writes:
>In article <DBH.93Oc...@wombat.doc.ic.ac.uk>, d...@doc.ic.ac.uk (Denis Howe) writes:
>|> Does that mean that if there is no default icon Return does nothing?
>|> Do you always have to use arrows or the mouse to move between fields?
>|> I hope not.
>
>Yes. Like you, I regret this. I also regularly get caught by it. :-(

I used Impression, which works the `new' way (and has done for ages), and
find it much more logical than Acorn's original plan -- RETURN works the
same all the time, as do the cursor keys. Internal consistency is
increased, hopefully reducing user confusion. Hence, my applications
work in this way. I haven't had any complaints yet.

Simon Glass

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Oct 11, 1993, 5:48:05 PM10/11/93
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In article <931011075...@ntlrd.demon.co.uk> ne...@ntlrd.demon.co.uk (Neil Hoggarth) writes:

> as the look. The "select a block, move or copy block" paradigm for
> manipulating text which has been with us since View on the BBC B is
> gone, replaced by "cut or copy block to clipboard, paste from clipboard"

yuk. So when you delete 500k of text you don't get your memory back...and
when you hightlight a large amount of text & press a key it prompts you
because you are about to wipe half your document...this is a real hack. Let's
hope they move to drag & drop very quickly.

> method used in Impression. When interacting with a dialogue box the
> RETURN key is now defined to activate the default action button (OK,
> PRINT or whatever) completing the dialogue, rather than taking you to
> the next field as was previously the case.

I hate this too. After all, the return key is nice and big & conveniently
placed so you can press it all the time after entering a field. The tab key
is not. Maybe the 'enter' key could be used for clicking OK, instead of the
present F1. In any case, RISC OS 3.2/whatever should differentiate b/t
Return, Ctrl-M and Enter, + on keyboard & + on keypad, etc. Perhaps the left
Alt key could be used as a shifting key...a few other changes as well. The
keyboard is too much like a primitive terminal at the moment. Applications
trying to tell Ctrl-Shift-A from Ctrl-A when the machine is under load have
all sorts of problems...

> One thing which is presumably not Computer Concepts inspired is the
> section on page 91 - "Choice of programming language: We strongly urge
> you to program using C".

I think they've learnt that lesson.

> I don't really have a problem with the look (which in RISC OS 3 is
> largely customisable anyway) but the feel does concern me somewhat. No
> doubt a good case can be made for the changes. However it seems strange
> that in a document which is after all about promoting consistancy across
> applications that Acorn should make apparantly arbitary changes to the
> behaviour an interface which many of us have been using for years and
> which we have got used to.

Very strange. It would be even stranger if (gasp) the changes didn't really
help much.

The style guide is greate if your writing a text editor, word processor,
drawing program, etc. Not much use for what I do, & I'm sure I'm not the only
one.

'twill be interesting to see the new filer...


--
Views expressed not necessarily my own Simon Glass
(sig line withdrawn due to
repetitveness)

py2...@cen.ex.ac.uk

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Oct 12, 1993, 7:19:30 AM10/12/93
to
In article <1993Oct11....@fel.tno.nl> ll...@fel.tno.nl (L.L.Frederiks) writes:
>
>Hm...I am a little disappointed by the !NewLook application. Acorn is
>not playing all their cards on the table (is this English ??). Last
>week I have seen the effect of their new filer and wimp modules. During
>the Dutch Acorn show someone showed the a completely marbled desktop.
>Including the background of the windows and the error boxes. Transparent
>sprite dragging (during save operations) and a special feature for
>>1 file dragging (something like a bundle of files) was implemented.
>This will mean that the new filer/wimp (including outline fonts in the
>filer windows) will be launched with RISC OS 4 (????)

Hum... I think we are still NDA'd (Non-Disclosure Agreement) on these new
whizzy features, so I can't say much. What I will say is that they really
do look good, and that they also take up rather huge amounts of memory, so
it might be a good idea if they went into a new ROM release, rather than
everybody trying to run them in the RMA. Still, the mythical new machines
certainly ought to have all this and more...

>
>>I'm not very keen on the new tool sprites. They look a bit too ornate
>>for my taste and the buttons light up yellow when you press them which
>
>Yellow ? Never seen Impression, ArtWorks etc. 'Action button' thus
>with a double icon border (like 'OK') must lighy up yellow when pressed.
>However, it should be orange...
>
>Loek.

I think there is a little confusion here. It is a small area of the TOOL
sprites, i.e., the window border arrows and other icons that light up yellow
when they are pressed - not the OK, etc. buttons, which used to be orange and
now are just shades of grey (much smarter, if you ask me).

Tim

Nick Bannon

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Oct 12, 1993, 11:31:16 PM10/12/93
to
Philip Hazel (ph...@cus.cam.ac.uk) wrote:
> In article <DBH.93Oc...@wombat.doc.ic.ac.uk>, d...@doc.ic.ac.uk (Denis Howe) writes:
> |> Does that mean that if there is no default icon Return does nothing?
> |> Do you always have to use arrows or the mouse to move between fields?
> |> I hope not.

> Yes. Like you, I regret this. I also regularly get caught by it. :-(

I get caught switching between Arcs and Macs... On Macs, pressing RETURN
is also equivalent to clicking on the default icon, but pressing TAB
will move you onto the next writeable icon, usually...

I would hope that software authors include at least one of these ways of
moving on in their software... Personally, I am used to the Arc way of
things, like the !Edit find box, and the !Paint icons for scaling the
sprite brush, ie RETURN send you onto the next, but as long as there is
a way of doing it, I'll be happy...

Nick.

ma9...@cen.ex.ac.uk

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Oct 13, 1993, 8:19:00 AM10/13/93
to
I have just started an computer design course as part of my maths degree, and
it would be very useful if I had a program on which I could create logic
curcuits and then set up the input states and have the outputs automatically
calculated. I seem to remember a demo of a commercial program was distributed
some time back which had similar features, but does any one know of any programs
that would do this in the P.D.
Many Thanks
Chris
ma9...@uk.ac.ex.cen

Jim Noble

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Oct 13, 1993, 8:32:41 AM10/13/93
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ma9...@cen.ex.ac.uk writes in article <CEu4v...@cen.ex.ac.uk>

There is aport of the SPICE program. This is used in many places for
circuit level simulation. I should be available from the newcastle
info-server and hensa archives.

Jim
--
Jim Noble

What I just said is probably wrong.
Heck! Everybody knows I only open my mouth to change feet.

Mark D Smith

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Oct 14, 1993, 6:03:26 AM10/14/93
to
In article <931011075...@ntlrd.demon.co.uk> ne...@ntlrd.demon.co.uk (Neil Hoggarth) writes:
>
>I was somewhat suprised by the guide in several respects. The first
>unexpected thing is that it deals solely with the new 3D look (the
>"NewLook") and the existing flat interface isn't discussed at all. Given
>the existance of the CMOS configuration bit to indicate whether or not
>to use a 3D look (RISC OS 3 PRM page 3-34) I would have thought there
>was still a need to document the old style interface. Apparently there
>was a RISC OS 2 style guide but I never had one, so a discussion of both
>styles would have been welcome.
>

I've given up taking any notice of that CMOS RAM bit, the style guide appears
to advocate using a 3D look regardless and there is no way of setting it
without going to the command line and using OS_Byte 162. Can we have
clarification over the use of this bit?
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| M M AAA RRRR K K Janet email: ee91...@brunel.ac.uk |
| MM MM A A R R K K Subject: Microelectronic Systems Design |
| M MM M AAAAA RRRR KK Establishment: Brunel University, U.K. |
| M M A A R R K K |
| M M A A R RR K K |

Mark D Smith

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Oct 14, 1993, 6:05:25 AM10/14/93
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>In article <931011075...@ntlrd.demon.co.uk> ne...@ntlrd.demon.co.uk writes:
>>One thing which is presumably not Computer Concepts inspired is the
>>section on page 91 - "Choice of programming language: We strongly urge
>>you to program using C".
>
>I think that this is taking it a bit far.. I fail to see why a style guide
>should reccomend any language over another, provided other languages are used
>to conform with the front end look & feel.
>
Ever wonder why Artworks is so much faster than draw?

Mark.

Mr M D Wooding

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Oct 14, 1993, 6:59:05 AM10/14/93
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In article <CEvt...@brunel.ac.uk>,

ee91...@brunel.ac.uk (Mark D Smith) writes:
>Ever wonder why Artworks is so much faster than draw?

Well, one particularly good reason is that CC rewrote the Draw module, which
AFAIK is already in assembler.

It's a common misconception that things are automatically faster if you write
them in assembler. The important things are the algorithms used -- recoding
in assembler in a vast majority of cases only increases the speed by a small
constant factor. My DES implementation isn't faster than SparkFS's becuase
I wrote mine in assembler (although I did) -- it's because I completely
mangled all of the tables to reduce the number of operations. Before I did
this, my code was (I think) slightly slower.

Acorn's C compiler is very good. Occasions when I could do significantly
better are rare. Don't attack the compiler because the programmer didn't
do his [yeah, OK, or her] bit.
--
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(___ /_ __ ___ / ' ___ /__ /_ /

____) (__ / (__(_ (__( (_ (_ (__( ( (_ (__ / `The one thing they really
_____) _____) / couldn't stand was a smartarse'

Bob Voisey

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Oct 14, 1993, 1:51:39 PM10/14/93
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>calculated. I seem to remember a demo of a commercial program was distributed
>some time back which had similar features, but does any one know of any

The commercial one which springs to mind is Logic Works (from, I think,
Callancraft). I saw it at the BAU show a couple of years ago, and was
very impressed. It can emulate processors and all sorts of complex
logic devices.

Stephen Burke

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Oct 17, 1993, 5:31:16 PM10/17/93
to
In article <750330...@cryton.demon.co.uk>, b...@cryton.demon.co.uk (Bob Voisey) writes:
> I think that this is taking it a bit far.. I fail to see why a style guide
> should reccomend any language over another, provided other languages are used
> to conform with the front end look & feel.

I suspect the point is more "we aren't going to support any language but C" ...
which would be fine if they actually *did* support C. I wonder if we'll see
DeskLib as a CC-supported product?!

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Mr M D Wooding

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Oct 18, 1993, 8:57:31 AM10/18/93
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In article <1993Oct17...@vxdesy.desy.de>,

bu...@vxdesy.desy.de (Stephen Burke) writes:
>I suspect the point is more "we aren't going to support any language but C" ...
>which would be fine if they actually *did* support C. I wonder if we'll see
>DeskLib as a CC-supported product?!

Who are we complaining about here -- Acorn or CC? Despite appearances to the
contrary, Acorn actually write the Style Guide. I can't pick any *really*
major faults with their C support -- RISC_OSlib has bugs, sure, but then so
does anything else that size.

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