VIDC Enhancer
Jeremy Lee
What exactly is the VIDC enhancer, and how does it work?
What sort of inprovement do you get?
I always assumed that the VIDC enhancer was a replacement VIDC
with a faster clock, but from what I have heard recently, I think I
am wrong. Cone someone set me straight?
***********************************************************************
* . Jeremy Lee s0...@sand.sics.bu.oz.au Student of Everything *
* /| "Where the naked spotless intelect is without *
* /_| center or circumference. Look to the light, *
* / |rchimedes Leland, look to the light" - Dale Cooper *
***********************************************************************
Nicko van Someren
>
> What exactly is the VIDC enhancer, and how does it work?
> What sort of inprovement do you get?
> I always assumed that the VIDC enhancer was a replacement VIDC
>with a faster clock, but from what I have heard recently, I think I
>am wrong. Cone someone set me straight?
The VIDC Enhancer is a product the I invented for Atomwide about three years
ago that has subsequently been copied by other companies. It is a simple
piece of hardware that runs in conjunction with some software.
The hardware allows the VIDC to be clocked at either the normal 24MHz speed
or an 'enhanced' 36MHz clock speed. By giving the VIDC a high clock rate
more pixels may be outputted in a given time so a higher resolution screen
may be obtained. This allows the Archi. to give an 800x600 pixel display.
This is only of use on a multisync monitor. While the hardware is pretty
simple the software supplied not only provides definitions for new modes
and a system to switch the enhancer on and off but also allows the user to
design new modes, try a test card for the mode and then save a mode module
for the new mode. The VIDC enhancer from Atomwide fits in A440,A300,A400/1
and A3000 machines. It is not needed in A540 or A5000 machines as the
hardware is already there. The VIDC enhancer can not be fitted in machines
that have genlock cards (as they use the same conector) and the new modes
that the VIDC enhancer provides can not have 256 colours because this would
need 36MBs-1 of data and the Archimedes memory can only provide 25.6MBs-1.
I hope that this answers most questions about the VIDC Enhancer.
Nicko
Do not be fooled by copies. Buy only the original Atomwide VIDC Enhancer.
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Nicko van Someren, nb...@cl.cam.ac.uk, (44) 223 358707 or (44) 860 498903 |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Tiggr
>The VIDC Enhancer is a product the I invented for Atomwide about three years
>[...]
>Do not be fooled by copies. Buy only the original Atomwide VIDC Enhancer.
And who is going to believe that this is not a
commercial self-interest-only remark?
There's nothing special about a VIDC enhancer.
I was using an arc having such an enhancement
long before you `invented' it...
Tiggr
J M Fielder
It would seem as though NVS would like to take the credit for every possible
attachment that could be attached to an Archie in any possible way. His
design is completly out of date compared to say, the Watford Electronics design,
and I can't comment on his new mode definer software, but if it is the same
as the Serial Ports for their PCATS board (what a heap of junk that is, I
need two boards to get it to work, and then it still crashes the wimp quite
happily about every hour), then all I will say is that Patric Arnold tried for
20 minutes to define a mode at the AU show, and every time the software stiffed
the machine, brilliant!
I quite agree with tigger, I know many people that had done a crystal plugging
into the header 'specifically placed there for that purpose' long long before
he decided to produce on while down the pub one evening.
Come on NVS, you haven't invented all of your products have you.....
TTFN
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<_/
Justin M Fielder
ee8...@ft.brunel.ac.uk
J M Fielder
> What sort of inprovement do you get?
> I always assumed that the VIDC enhancer was a replacement VIDC
>with a faster clock, but from what I have heard recently, I think I
>am wrong. Cone someone set me straight?
It is very simple really. Any VIDC enhancer on the market just enables
VIDC to be clocked at a greater rate than 24MHz. This enables you to
have wider and taller screens, but with the corresponding decrease in
bandwidth available to the ARM.
There are a few versions out there, but there are some very big differences.
a) Atomwide. The first one available. Just a 36MHz crystal and a switch.
It is possible to switch in the 36Mhz clock by software but this requires
some soldering to the machine.
b) BeeBug - Basically the same as Atomwide.
c) Watford Electronics - By far the most advanced one. Two versions
available, a multisync one, and a VGA one.
The watford design extends the VIDC capabilities to that of a A540.
The multisync one is completely controlled by software, and just has
a 36Mhz crystal on it. Supplied with the software is three programs
a) !ModeSel - A WIMP based mode selection utility, displays all the
modes available in a window for easy selection.
Different monitors each have their own 'module' that ensures that
all screens available (all 'common' modes are supplied inc. CC's
etc.) are exactly in the centre of the monitors screen.
b) !Tweaks - Enables the tweaking of modes to position the screens
in the middle of the monitor screen. Due to the way monitors are
built, they all have different ideas about where the middle of the
screen is in a video signal, hence the perviable archie problem of
the screen jumping all around the place can be solved by 'moving'
screens into the middle just by using the cursor keys.
c) !Define - Mode definer. Alows new modes to be created with about 4
mouse clicks. You just set the number of cols / rows, line and
refresh rate, bits per pixel, and hit 'Make Mode'. If the resultant
screen isn't in the center of the monitor, then quick load into
!Tweaks sorts that out.
Full control of the colck speed that VIDC runs at is included, as
well as loads of other goodies. No more mucking around with VIDC
register values to get the right number of rows and coloums, and
then the correct line / frame rate.
There is also a wide range of pre-defined modules for monitors supplied.
The VGA version allows VGA monitors to use every mode physically possible.
No longer are you stuck with mode 28,27,26 & 25, but every mode from 0 to 98
is available (if VIDC can produce it, you can display it!)
It solves the problem that VGA monitors need separate syncs to operate, and
the polarity of these syncs needs to be changed.
In old (A300, A400, A400/1) machines, when the Archie was configured for
seperate syncs, the grenn signal used to be grounded! Not very useful, the
WE Super VGA VIDC enhancer gets around this by generating its own seperate
sync signals, and driving them using AC 75ohm matched linme drivers, thereby
improving the display quality.
All the above software is supplied with the VGA version.
Both VIDC enhancers are copatible with A300, A400, A3000 series Archimedes.
Cost, can't rember, but around #25 and #45 for the MultiSync and VGA versions.
Hope that helps......
TTFN
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/ / (_/_/_)_<__<_/ <_ / ' (_ (_/ <_</_</_(_/_</_/
<_/
Justin M Fielder
ee8...@brunel.ac.uk
Chris Dollin
Tiggr comments about Nicko's tailpiece:
nb...@cl.cam.ac.uk (Nicko van Someren) writes:
>The VIDC Enhancer is a product the I invented for Atomwide ...
>[...]
>Do not be fooled by copies. Buy only the original Atomwide VIDC Enhancer.
And who is going to believe that this is not a
commercial self-interest-only remark?
Well, *I* thought it was tongue-in-cheek humour.
--
Regards, | "C gains much of its vaunted efficiency by employing a very
Kers. | powerful pre-processor, usually called a ``programmer''."
Owen Smith
(Tiggr) writes:
>nb...@cl.cam.ac.uk (Nicko van Someren) writes:
>
>>Do not be fooled by copies. Buy only the original Atomwide VIDC Enhancer.
>
>And who is going to believe that this is not a
>commercial self-interest-only remark?
Because it just so happens that AtomWide and Aleph One product quality is
signficantly higher than all the rest put together. In particular, I would
not dream of buying an ARM3 board or an 8 Megabyte memory upgrade from
anyone else. All the competitors' products have significant defects in them.
AtomWide and Aleph One products have a feeling of quality about them, the
hardware in particular. I hear that Watford are doing a kit that lets you
remove the soldered on ARM2 from an A3000 yourself at home by virtually
ripping it from the circuit board, so that you can fit an ARM3 board. This
is not something a company should be encouraging users to do for themselves.
I might do it myself, but I feel I know what I'm doing. I wouldn't recommend
anyone else to do it themselves unless I personally knew that they were
capable of it. I wonder how many broken A3000s there will be out there
shortly. And will the users blame Watford or Acorn? What about the warranty?
Owen.
The views expressed are my own and are not necessarily those of Acorn.
Nicko van Someren
>
>>The VIDC Enhancer is a product the I invented for Atomwide about three years
>>[...]
>>Do not be fooled by copies. Buy only the original Atomwide VIDC Enhancer.
>
>And who is going to believe that this is not a
>commercial self-interest-only remark?
The body of the artical (which you thoughtfully cut out) was purely
informational. The last line was a remark motivated by self interest and
I never expected anyone to see it as anything else.
>There's nothing special about a VIDC enhancer.
Indeed I said in the body that you cut out that it was a simple piece
of hardware. To buy it on its own (as some people sell it) would not be
worth it. The value is in the software.
>I was using an arc having such an enhancement
>long before you `invented' it...
So were people at Acorn. If you were so clever why didn't you sell it?
>Tiggr
Nicko
Tiggr
>Because it just so happens that AtomWide and Aleph One product quality is
>signficantly higher than all the rest put together.
Just because something happens to be good is not a very good reason for
being allowed to plug it on usenet. Nicko plugs his toy products very
often which is extremely anoying. Plugging should be done in
comp.newsgroup, which was especially created for this purpose.
On comp.sys.acorn, only one company may plug its products. That
company is called Acorn Computers and they are allowed because they're
the reason this newsgroups exists.
Tiggr
Tiggr
>The body of the artical (which you thoughtfully cut out) was purely
>informational. The last line was a remark motivated by self interest and
>I never expected anyone to see it as anything else.
I didn't quote the body of the article, because my followup had nothing to do
with that part of the article. Nothing was `wrong' with it!
>>There's nothing special about a VIDC enhancer.
>Indeed I said in the body that you cut out that it was a simple piece
>of hardware. To buy it on its own (as some people sell it) would not be
>worth it. The value is in the software.
I responded to the combination of Nicko claiming to have invented the device,
which is now being sold by AtomWide, and the plug of the AtomWide device.
If the plug hadn't been present, I wouldn't have made any remark.
>>I was using an arc having such an enhancement
>>long before you `invented' it...
>So were people at Acorn. If you were so clever why didn't you sell it?
There is a big difference between being clever and selling things.
But the real reason for not selling it was that the device
wasn't mine, since I was an Acorn employee at that time :-)
If I were to buy a VIDCE at this moment in time, I'd probably buy the
AtomWide one. Not because of Nicko's plugs, but because of Owen's
article on the subject. But who needs a VIDCE anyway, when there are
things like 1152x900 monitors about? :-)
Tiggr
Adam David
>The VIDC enhancer can not be fitted in machines
>that have genlock cards (as they use the same conector) and the new modes
>that the VIDC enhancer provides can not have 256 colours because this would
>need 36MBs-1 of data and the Archimedes memory can only provide 25.6MBs-1.
But what happens if you fit 60ns RAM. What else needs to be done to get more
video bandwidth?
Oh, and while we're at it...
Does anyone know how to get a 12 MHz bus clock out of MEMC ?
I think it is done by setting a register so the bus clock is sysclock/2
instead of sysclock/3, but I'm not altogether sure about this.
So, how is it done?
--
Adam David.
(ad...@rhi.hi.is)
Michael Seifert
>Because it just so happens that AtomWide and Aleph One product quality is
>signficantly higher than all the rest put together. In particular, I would
>not dream of buying an ARM3 board or an 8 Megabyte memory upgrade from
>anyone else. All the competitors' products have significant defects in them.
>AtomWide and Aleph One products have a feeling of quality about them, the
>hardware in particular.
I'd pick Watford's ARM-3 upgrade at any time. Why?
Cost. It is #170 cheaper than Atomwide/Aleph One's upgrades. Both companies
must have outrageous profits.
And Watford's ARM-3 is now supposed to be the smallest upgrade available
(about 45 x 55mm).
--Michael
sei...@freja.diku.dk
P.S. Watford's new ARM-3 upgrade is only #199.
Colin Watters
Stuff deleted
>But what happens if you fit 60ns RAM. What else needs to be done to get more
>video bandwidth?
RAM access time is one thing, clocking the memory system faster to make use
of the faster RAM is another. But you probably know this because you say ...
>Oh, and while we're at it...
>Does anyone know how to get a 12 MHz bus clock out of MEMC ?
>I think it is done by setting a register so the bus clock is sysclock/2
>instead of sysclock/3, but I'm not altogether sure about this.
>So, how is it done?
It's not as simple as that I am afraid...
In a 400/1 the 8MHz I/O system clock is derived from MEMC (via IOC).
Major hardware changes have to be made to get the memory clock to go
at 12MHz while leaving the I/O clock running at 8MHz.
It is not simply a matter of decoupling the I/O clock from the memory
clock because signals such as IORQ and IOGT have to be resynchronised. The
A540 and the A5000 have the necessary H/W built in several PALs.
Colin Watters
Chris Marshall
> == sei...@freja.diku.dk
>> == osm...@acorn.co.uk (Owen Smith)
>>Because it just so happens that AtomWide and Aleph One product quality is
>>signficantly higher than all the rest put together. In particular, I would
>>not dream of buying an ARM3 board or an 8 Megabyte memory upgrade from
>>anyone else. All the competitors' products have significant defects in them.
>>AtomWide and Aleph One products have a feeling of quality about them, the
>>hardware in particular.
>
>I'd pick Watford's ARM-3 upgrade at any time. Why?
>
>Cost. It is #170 cheaper than Atomwide/Aleph One's upgrades. Both companies
>must have outrageous profits.
I can't really comment on the Watford vs. Whoever debate, much though I'd like
to. What I will say is this: Who do you think will give you the better
after-sales service? A large "box shifting" company??? I think not.
>And Watford's ARM-3 is now supposed to be the smallest upgrade available
>(about 45 x 55mm).
The Aleph One upgrade is not much bigger - possibly by only a few mm squared.
I don't actually look at it that often...
Chris Marshall.
PS. If you catch Atomwide at the right moment, you can get tea &
biscuits there :-) How's that for friendly service???
These views are my own and probably don't reflect those of Acorn.
Michael Seifert
>> == sei...@freja.diku.dk
>>> == osm...@acorn.co.uk (Owen Smith)
>>>Because it just so happens that AtomWide and Aleph One product quality is
>>>signficantly higher than all the rest put together. In particular, I would
>>>not dream of buying an ARM3 board or an 8 Megabyte memory upgrade from
>>>anyone else. All the competitors' products have significant defects in them.
>>>AtomWide and Aleph One products have a feeling of quality about them, the
>>>hardware in particular.
>>
>>I'd pick Watford's ARM-3 upgrade at any time. Why?
>>
>>Cost. It is #170 cheaper than Atomwide/Aleph One's upgrades. Both companies
>>must have outrageous profits.
>I can't really comment on the Watford vs. Whoever debate, much though I'd like
>to. What I will say is this: Who do you think will give you the better
>after-sales service? A large "box shifting" company??? I think not.
What kind of service shold I expect anyway? Is serving tea & cookies
worth #200? Either the ARM-3 works or it doesn't. If it doesn't, you
will get a new one within warranty period, or else you may just as
well thrash it (assuming the ARM-3 is broken).
>>And Watford's ARM-3 is now supposed to be the smallest upgrade available
>>(about 45 x 55mm).
>The Aleph One upgrade is not much bigger - possibly by only a few mm squared.
>I don't actually look at it that often...
Nope, but it was a major problem with their old upgrade since it was so
big that you might have problem fitting memory upgrades etc.
>PS. If you catch Atomwide at the right moment, you can get tea &
> biscuits there :-) How's that for friendly service???
Well, as I live in Denmark, it is a bit far to travel just to get tea
& cookies.
--Michael
--
Michael Seifert | OS/2 - The Nightmare Continues.. |
sei...@freja.diku.dk | PS/2+OS/2 = (PS+OS)/2 = 0.5*(PS+OS) |
----------------------------------------------------------------------+
Adam David
>In article <37...@krafla.rhi.hi.is> ad...@rhi.hi.is (Adam David) writes:
>>But what happens if you fit 60ns RAM. What else needs to be done to get more
>>video bandwidth?
>RAM access time is one thing, clocking the memory system faster to make use
>of the faster RAM is another.
(BTW Colin, thanks for your reply)
So what is it that governs the video access speed? I would refer to the VLSI
manuals, but they are out of print from Prentice-Hall.
>>Does anyone know how to get a 12 MHz bus clock out of MEMC ?
>>I think it is done by setting a register so the bus clock is sysclock/2
>>instead of sysclock/3, but I'm not altogether sure about this.
>It's not as simple as that I am afraid...
>In a 400/1 the 8MHz I/O system clock is derived from MEMC (via IOC).
>Major hardware changes have to be made to get the memory clock to go
>at 12MHz while leaving the I/O clock running at 8MHz.
>It is not simply a matter of decoupling the I/O clock from the memory
>clock because signals such as IORQ and IOGT have to be resynchronised. The
>A540 and the A5000 have the necessary H/W built in several PALs.
Surely that hardware isn't immensely complex just to synchronise a couple
of signals. Is anyone at Acorn (or elsewhere for that matter) willing to
comment on this (by private email if necessary). I have an A3000 which is
destined one day to be upgraded to ARM3 with 12MHz memory bus clock.
Surface mounted boards don't scare me much.
--
Adam David.
(ad...@rhi.hi.is)
J M Fielder
>
> [Stuff about Aleph one's ARM 3 and the #199 Watford Electronics ARM 3
> deleted]
>I can't really comment on the Watford vs. Whoever debate, much though I'd like
>to. What I will say is this: Who do you think will give you the better
>after-sales service? A large "box shifting" company??? I think not.
Watford Electronics has 5 highly trained technical support staff available
from 9.00am to 6.00pm every week day and saturday to answer questions
on BBC and Archie products.
[On a side note, there is also 4 PC fully trained staff]
That is the sort of backup you can get from Watford Electronics.
>>And Watford's ARM-3 is now supposed to be the smallest upgrade available
>>(about 45 x 55mm).
>The Aleph One upgrade is not much bigger - possibly by only a few mm squared.
>I don't actually look at it that often...
No, but the routing of the tracks is better on the Watford One, people don't
make PCB's larger than they have to for the fun of it, I just guess
Atomwide (or is it Aleph????? :-) didn't have up to date routing and
manufacturing equipment to make it that small. Up to date => Improved
reliability.
>PS. If you catch Atomwide at the right moment, you can get tea &
> biscuits there :-) How's that for friendly service???
If you are a Watford Electronics employee they tell you to bog off when you
ask to see their PC card at the AU show. Not scared of something are they????
TTFN
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<_/
Justin M Fielder
ee8...@brunel.ac.uk
These views are of an EX Watford Electronics Employee :-)
J M Fielder
>Because it just so happens that AtomWide and Aleph One product quality is
>signficantly higher than all the rest put together. In particular, I would
>not dream of buying an ARM3 board or an 8 Megabyte memory upgrade from
>anyone else. All the competitors' products have significant defects in them.
Could you please expand on this one? Where is the defect in any of the
other products.
A) Watford Electronics ARM3 MK II is the smallest ARM 3 of all ARM 3's
available. This has obvios advantages.
1) In any system involving data and addresses buses, the connections
should be kept as small as possible. The WE ARM 3 board has no
data or address lines running around the outside of the board like
some competors. This facilitates in reducing rining effects
on the data and adress lines.
2) The processor can in theory be clocked at higher speed as the
rining effects are less. All WE boards are sold with 25MHz clocks
on them, the speced speed. However, WE has had faster versions
running. However, it is up to the user to replace the crystal
with higher frequencies, as WE will and CAN ONLY guarentee an
ARM3 running at 25MHZ. THIS IS ACORNS POLICY, and any other
company that will sell surface mounted ARM3's running at higher
clock speeds is surly looking for trouble??? (Unless that company
can run VLSI's / Acorns TEST VECTORS (not just running a program)
on a machine cost >100K, while increasing the clock speed.....
I think not.......)
3) The co-processor connections are tied down. On some other boards
the co-processor connections are left floating. Some even take
these out to a little IDC connector! Anyone with a base of
electronic knoledge would know that floating outputs = greater
heat disapation. This is of very high inportance in a machine
that has only one fan fitted, every little bit more heat could
contribute to a heat failure (not that I am saying it would, but
is adding a co-poressor on an IDC cable a viable option?????)
B) As ACORN USER have found out to their cost, and have PUBLICLY apologised
to WE over their artical on 8MB upgrades, the WE 8MB upgrade has many
advantages over similar products.
1) It uses NO RIBBON CABLE. Anyone that thinks that an 8MHz memory
system can run at maximum reliability by sending signals down a
piece of ribbon cable must have a serious memory fault. Ever heard
of rining? capacitance? The people that have designed such systems
are supposed to have learn't all of this at UNI etc. I learn't
in my first year that if you run a singal at >1MHz down a piece of
ribbon cable (even earth interleaved) then you are looking for
serious problems.
The WE card is the only 4 layer complete design that uses no ribbon
cable (as far as I know, but Aleph wouldn't show us one, wonder
why????? If I am wrong here, then please correct, and accept my
apologies) to transfer memory signals. All the 4MB ram, and
second MEMC is held on one 4 layer, ground and power planed board.
2) It takes up no podule slot. I think the new aleph one (or is it
atomwide, or are they going to for another company tommorow to
sell another product, who knows?) down't use up a podule slot, it
sits in the ROM sockets. Oh, NVS, copied WE idea of not using
a podule slot did you? Just like WE copied your VIDC Enhancer :-)
3) The WE board can take an ARM3 and place it in a much more sensible
place, right next to the vent hole on the right hand side of
the computer. An ARM3 can disapate up to a watt of heat, the WE
8MB board places this nice little heat source next to the
ventalation hole in the archies casing.
4) HARDWARE disabling of the 2nd MEMC. The 2nd MEMC is disabled by
a hardware switch, controlled by software - invaluable for testing
that you software will work on a bog standard 4MB machine. The
2nd MEMC is not seen by the 1st MEMC, and therefore has no effect
on the machine. NO OTHER BOARD OFFERS THIS (again if this has
changed since the AU review, then aceppt apologies, but could that
be someone copying WE ideas???? :-)
>AtomWide and Aleph One products have a feeling of quality about them, the
>hardware in particular. I hear that Watford are doing a kit that lets you
>remove the soldered on ARM2 from an A3000 yourself at home by virtually
>ripping it from the circuit board, so that you can fit an ARM3 board.
WHO TOLD YOU THAT???? NVS from Atomwide by any chance????
THE ABOVE STATEMENT IS A COMPLETE LIE! The WE A3000 ARM3 upgrade is an
upgrade avauilable for #199 + #35 courier collection, fitting and delivery
by WE.
THE GUARENTEE ON ANY A3000 SENT TO WE TO HAVE AN A3000 ARM 3 FITTED WILL
BE RETAINED. THIS HAS ALWAYS BEEN THE CASE, AND WILL ALWAYS BE THE CASE.
to repeat for the people that just missed that (as a lot of people seem
to do....)
YOUR *ACORN* GUARENTEE IS NOT AFFECTED BY GETTING WE TO FIT AN A3000 ARM 3
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
There is no 'at home' option. A purpose made surface mount socket is placed
onto the A3000 mother board by WE surface mount experts, so that an ARM2 can
be placed back into the socket if so desired. The WE ARM 3 (for #199) is
then placed into this socket using the purpose made connector on the ARM 3
board.
>This is not something a company should be encouraging users to do for themselves.
>I might do it myself, but I feel I know what I'm doing. I wouldn't recommend
>anyone else to do it themselves unless I personally knew that they were
>capable of it. I wonder how many broken A3000s there will be out there
>shortly. And will the users blame Watford or Acorn? What about the warranty?
NONE. Unless people send them to other companies other than Watford
Electronics. NVS of Atomwide said to Watford Electronics representatives at
the AU show that his company was trying to get approval for fitting ARM 3's to
A3000's so that the guarentee would not be affected. Perhaps NVS would like
to say if his companie(s) had achieved this. All of the A3000 ARM3's fitted
already by Watford Electronics are all working perfectly, and still retain
the ACORN GUARENTEE.
Therefore, if anyone has tried to take their ARM 3 out, then you can't blame
Watford Electronics (unless of course other companies told people that WE
said it was alright for users to take them out themselves.)
Oh, on another note, the WE ARM3 upgrade does work with RISC OS 3, even though
TWO people at the Acorn User show cam up to the Watford Electronics stand and
siad that Atomwide had said that the Watford Electronics ARM3 didn't work.
Now, NVS denied it entirely, but then who do you believe...........
TTFN
>The views expressed are my own and are not necessarily those of Acorn.
The views expressed are of an ex Watford Electronics employee.............
Owen Smith
writes:
>In article <10...@acorn.co.uk> osm...@acorn.co.uk (Owen Smith) writes:
>
>>Because it just so happens that AtomWide and Aleph One product quality is
>>signficantly higher than all the rest put together. In particular, I would
>>not dream of buying an ARM3 board or an 8 Megabyte memory upgrade from
>>anyone else. All the competitors' products have significant defects in them.
>
>Could you please expand on this one? Where is the defect in any of the
>other products.
I do not really wish to enter into an argument, but I feel it is necessary
here. Watford and their supporters seem to keep getting the last word (both
on comp.sys.acorn and in Acorn User :-)).
OK so I admit that the "significant defects" bit was rather a sweeping
generalisation. However, it does seem that a lot of the competing products
have a lot of problems. I'm thinking particularly here of 8MB RAM board
hardware, and problems with the software that comes with ARM3 boards. This
is not to say there aren't other problems. I should really have concentrated
on the good quality of AtomWide and Aleph One products. Saying there are
defects in others was asking for trouble :-).
>A) Watford Electronics ARM3 MK II is the smallest ARM 3 of all ARM 3's
> available. This has obvios advantages.
Who cares about a few mm size providing the Aleph One board is small
enough? Anyway, what if the Watford board has been so shaved on size that
the power tracks aren't wide enough? Size cuts both ways. At the end of
the day, who cares about the size so long as it is within reasonable
limits and fits in the machine along with other upgrades?
> 1) In any system involving data and addresses buses, the connections
> should be kept as small as possible. The WE ARM 3 board has no
> data or address lines running around the outside of the board like
> some competors. This facilitates in reducing rining effects
> on the data and adress lines.
My Aleph One ARM3 I just looked at seems pretty well laid out to me. I
can't see any lines running round the edge of the board.
>
> 2) The processor can in theory be clocked at higher speed as the
> rining effects are less. All WE boards are sold with 25MHz clocks
> on them, the speced speed. However, WE has had faster versions
> running. However, it is up to the user to replace the crystal
> with higher frequencies, as WE will and CAN ONLY guarentee an
> ARM3 running at 25MHZ. THIS IS ACORNS POLICY, and any other
> company that will sell surface mounted ARM3's running at higher
> clock speeds is surly looking for trouble??? (Unless that company
> can run VLSI's / Acorns TEST VECTORS (not just running a program)
> on a machine cost >100K, while increasing the clock speed.....
> I think not.......)
This is a rather sudden reversal of policy from Watford, who very recently
sold 30 MHz ARM3 boards, many of which didn't work. At least Aleph One
30 MHz boards worked!
> 3) The co-processor connections are tied down. On some other boards
> the co-processor connections are left floating. Some even take
> these out to a little IDC connector! Anyone with a base of
> electronic knoledge would know that floating outputs = greater
> heat disapation. This is of very high inportance in a machine
> that has only one fan fitted, every little bit more heat could
> contribute to a heat failure (not that I am saying it would, but
> is adding a co-poressor on an IDC cable a viable option?????)
The Aleph One ARM3 also has these all tied to ground, so a tie on this
point (neglecting other manufacturer's ARM3 boards).
>B) As ACORN USER have found out to their cost, and have PUBLICLY apologised
> to WE over their artical on 8MB upgrades, the WE 8MB upgrade has many
> advantages over similar products.
I was very angry when I read the second review of the Watford 8MB board. The
first review of all three was excellent and I was upset that Acorn User
had damaged their integrity as impartial reviewers by bowing to pressure
from one manufacturer. The second article did not even mention the other
two boards, it merely praised the "features" of the Watford board that
Watford wanted praising and glossed over the faults that had been previously
highlighted. The SIMMs for the RAM are particularly dire - yet another
connector, and 32 RAM chips (36 for pedants :-) instead of AtomWide's 8.
Acorn User should have either ignored Watford's complaints, or they should
have got a different reviewer to do a complete re-review of all three boards,
ideally a reviewer who had neither seen the original review nor heard of
Watford's complaints.
>
> 1) It uses NO RIBBON CABLE. Anyone that thinks that an 8MHz memory
> system can run at maximum reliability by sending signals down a
> piece of ribbon cable must have a serious memory fault. Ever heard
> of rining? capacitance? The people that have designed such systems
> are supposed to have learn't all of this at UNI etc. I learn't
> in my first year that if you run a singal at >1MHz down a piece of
> ribbon cable (even earth interleaved) then you are looking for
> serious problems.
>
> The WE card is the only 4 layer complete design that uses no ribbon
> cable (as far as I know, but Aleph wouldn't show us one, wonder
> why????? If I am wrong here, then please correct, and accept my
> apologies) to transfer memory signals. All the 4MB ram, and
> second MEMC is held on one 4 layer, ground and power planed board.
This point I will concede. No ribbon cable is clearly better. However, there
are enough other things wrong with the board that it loses out overall.
> 2) It takes up no podule slot. I think the new aleph one (or is it
> atomwide, or are they going to for another company tommorow to
> sell another product, who knows?) down't use up a podule slot, it
> sits in the ROM sockets. Oh, NVS, copied WE idea of not using
> a podule slot did you? Just like WE copied your VIDC Enhancer :-)
A) How many people do you know with four podules?
B) The new Aleph One board (which I have seen) does not use a podule slot,
it uses (as you say) the ROM sockets. An additional feature is that it
gives you large capacity OS ROM sockets on an A440. Roll on Risc OS 3.
C) Lets keep personal insults out of what is supposed to be a technical
discussion, shall we? :-)
>
> 3) The WE board can take an ARM3 and place it in a much more sensible
> place, right next to the vent hole on the right hand side of
> the computer. An ARM3 can disapate up to a watt of heat, the WE
> 8MB board places this nice little heat source next to the
> ventalation hole in the archies casing.
And at the same time blocks the hole up so that no air can get through it
anyway. I am also concerned about the connector for the ARM3 board. Another
connector adds signal delays (in addition to the delays from plugging into
the ARM2 socket in the first place), and is it a reliable connector?
> 4) HARDWARE disabling of the 2nd MEMC. The 2nd MEMC is disabled by
> a hardware switch, controlled by software - invaluable for testing
> that you software will work on a bog standard 4MB machine. The
> 2nd MEMC is not seen by the 1st MEMC, and therefore has no effect
> on the machine. NO OTHER BOARD OFFERS THIS (again if this has
> changed since the AU review, then aceppt apologies, but could that
> be someone copying WE ideas???? :-)
Frankly, I feel that this is a completely unecessary feature. Just allocate
a 4MB RAM disk instead. Very little third party software operates at a
level low enough that the difference matters.
(Is there a problem with the switch interfering with your Caps Lock key? :-)
:-) :-) :-) Use capitalisation sparingly - your text is hard to read.)
>>AtomWide and Aleph One products have a feeling of quality about them, the
>>hardware in particular. I hear that Watford are doing a kit that lets you
>>remove the soldered on ARM2 from an A3000 yourself at home by virtually
>>ripping it from the circuit board, so that you can fit an ARM3 board.
>
>WHO TOLD YOU THAT???? NVS from Atomwide by any chance????
NVS did not tell me, and I'm not at liberty to say who did (sorry). I have
no evidence either way, and if I'm wrong I apologise. The person who told
me said he saw it at the Acorn User show. Would the person who told me
care to comment?
>THE ABOVE STATEMENT IS A COMPLETE LIE! The WE A3000 ARM3 upgrade is an
>upgrade avauilable for #199 + #35 courier collection, fitting and delivery
>by WE.
>
>THE GUARENTEE ON ANY A3000 SENT TO WE TO HAVE AN A3000 ARM 3 FITTED WILL
>BE RETAINED. THIS HAS ALWAYS BEEN THE CASE, AND WILL ALWAYS BE THE CASE.
>
>to repeat for the people that just missed that (as a lot of people seem
>to do....)
>
>YOUR *ACORN* GUARENTEE IS NOT AFFECTED BY GETTING WE TO FIT AN A3000 ARM 3
Definitely something wrong with your Caps Lock key. :-) :-) :-)
At this point I'll stop quoting the rest of the article, to save some
network bandwidth. In response to the stuff about Risc OS 3.00, first
of all all A5000s have an ARM3 in them already :-) so anyone complaining
that Risc OS 3.00 doesn't work with ARM3 boards had better have a good
explanation of where this information came from! Secondly, the Aleph One
ARM3 and the AtomWide 8MB board work perfectly with Risc OS 3, and the
AtomWide Turbo VIDC works with Risc OS 3 kernel VIDC clock speed control
if you have my VIDCClock module loaded. (I posted the source for this
module some time ago while talking about kernel VIDC speed control on
Risc OS 2.01.)
<...........>
>>The views expressed are my own and are not necessarily those of Acorn.
>
>The views expressed are of an ex Watford Electronics employee.............
I have never worked for Aleph One or AtomWide, and praising their products
gains me nothing. One wonders why you left Watford? :-)
The entire of your reply concentrates on counting how many individual
features the Watford boards have, and equating that with quality. It
has been frequently observed, in both hardware and software, that quality
and reliability are often inversely proportional to the number of features.
So if you don't need or want the features, are they plus points or
minus points?
Quality is not about counting features and ticking check boxes. It is
about the overall feel of the product.
Owen.
Graham Toal
>In article <10...@acorn.co.uk> cmar...@acorn.co.uk (Chris Marshall) writes:
>>
>> [Stuff about Aleph one's ARM 3 and the #199 Watford Electronics ARM 3
>> deleted]
>
>>I can't really comment on the Watford vs. Whoever debate, much though I'd like
>>to. What I will say is this: Who do you think will give you the better
>>after-sales service? A large "box shifting" company??? I think not.
>
>Watford Electronics has 5 highly trained technical support staff available
>from 9.00am to 6.00pm every week day and saturday to answer questions
>on BBC and Archie products.
>
>[On a side note, there is also 4 PC fully trained staff]
>
>That is the sort of backup you can get from Watford Electronics.
Well, they got my back up anyway. I ordered a RISC OS ethernet card from them,
with software. (It took me two days to explain to them *what* ethernet software
was) They sent on the card after about two weeks, but couldn't get me the
software for love nor money. (It was out at the time, I knew people who had it)
When it finally arrived, the shrink-wrapped packaging had been carefully
slit open, so that the contents could be removed. This is software with
a 'shrink-wrap' licence on the side, by the way. I won't hazard a guess as to
why they wanted to open this package, which was clearly the first Ethernet
software box they'd had.
During the 6-week or so wait, I phoned them regularly. One day it took me
four hours to get to speak to someone. I was continually put on hold
and then heard no more. As soon as I would open my mouth, it was 'just
a moment please, I'm putting you on hold'. I finally got through to
a real person by saying" Hello. PLEASE DO NOT PUT ME ON HOLD. I want to
speak to anyone from sales. Please make sure you have someone on the
end of the line before you put me through. I DO NOT WANT TO BE LEFT ON
HOLD while you try to get someone." It really was that bad.
That is the sort of backup *I* got from Watford...
Graham
Graham Toal
I just had to read to the end of this AMAZING watford press release
to see if the WONDERFUL author was going to admit to being a Watford
employee. I was NOT DISAPPOINTED to find...
>The views expressed are of an ex Watford Electronics employee.............
Just a guess, but you didn't by any chance work on this EXCITING product
yourself, did you?
G
Huw J. Rogers
:In article <25...@mercury.brunel.ac.uk> ee8...@brunel.ac.uk.brunel.ac.uk (J M Fielder) writes:
:>In article <10...@acorn.co.uk> cmar...@acorn.co.uk (Chris Marshall) writes:
:>>to. What I will say is this: Who do you think will give you the better
:>>after-sales service? A large "box shifting" company??? I think not.
:>
:>Watford Electronics has 5 highly trained technical support staff available
:>from 9.00am to 6.00pm every week day and saturday to answer questions
:>on BBC and Archie products.
:>That is the sort of backup you can get from Watford Electronics.
:
:During the 6-week or so wait, I phoned them regularly. One day it took me
:four hours to get to speak to someone. I was continually put on hold
:and then heard no more. As soon as I would open my mouth, it was 'just
:a moment please, I'm putting you on hold'. I finally got through to
:a real person by saying" Hello. PLEASE DO NOT PUT ME ON HOLD. I want to
:speak to anyone from sales. Please make sure you have someone on the
:end of the line before you put me through. I DO NOT WANT TO BE LEFT ON
:HOLD while you try to get someone." It really was that bad.
:
:That is the sort of backup *I* got from Watford...
Well that is totally different from me. I have always
been able to get through to WE. They have polite and knowledgeable
reception staff, and my technical enquiries have always been
rapidly passed through to the person who can answer them. In
fact just recently I've been after some detailed technical info. on
a hard drive I bought from them and they've been extremely helpful
so far.
I have never been put on hold by them. WE have been the most
technically competent suppliers I have talked to on the phone. I must
admit, though, that I've only ever spoken to their tech. guys, never the
sales people - they may well be incompetent for all I know.
-Huw
[ H.J.Rogers INTERNET: rogersh%p...@cs.man.ac.uk ]
[ ,_, JANET: rogersh%p...@uk.ac.man.cs ]
[ :-(_)-o "I'll be back..." ]
[ _} {_ "Computer Science is an engineering discipline." ]
Richard York
>No, but the routing of the tracks is better on the Watford One, people don't
>make PCB's larger than they have to for the fun of it, I just guess
>Atomwide (or is it Aleph????? :-) didn't have up to date routing and
>manufacturing equipment to make it that small. Up to date => Improved
>reliability.
What a load of rubbish. We are talking of only around 10-20% difference
between different boards. This is fairly insignificant. Further more the
comment about more upto date gives higher reliability is flawed. Most
of the reliability comes from the quality of the board manufacture, the
type of pcb used, how well they etched the tracks etc. I have worked with
many pcbs, both hand and computer tracked and although hand laying can be
bad I've seen some 'professional' computer tracked boards which were a pile
of rubbish.
Please don't make sweeping generalisations. They are often incorrect
and are very misleading. By the way what did you do at Watford? Make the tea
perhaps?
Rich
--
:----------------------------------------------------------------------:
: Richard York : E-mail : yo...@p4.cs.man.ac.uk :
: 2nd year Computer Engineering : Janet : yo...@uk.ac.man.cs.p4 :
: Manchester University : :
:----------------------------------------------------------------------:
--
:----------------------------------------------------------------------:
: Richard York : E-mail : yo...@p4.cs.man.ac.uk :
: 2nd year Computer Engineering : Janet : yo...@uk.ac.man.cs.p4 :
: Manchester University : :
J M Fielder
>In article <25...@mercury.brunel.ac.uk> ee8...@brunel.ac.uk (J M Fielder)
>writes:
>>In article <10...@acorn.co.uk> osm...@acorn.co.uk (Owen Smith) writes:
Right, I will cut out a lot of Owen's reply to my artical to lessen the
bandwidth on this net.
> [Stuff about significant defect]
Thanxs for the correction :-)
> [Stuff about Aleph's / Atomwide's quality]
I think that anyone that has seen Watford's latest products which myself
and the *new* (no caps there, just a ** :-) R&D department at WE developed
are a a very high quality. It won't be any other way from now on at WE.
I can't comment on quality of WE products before I joined them (about
7 months ago) as I had nothing to do with them, but I have still got my
WE DDFS in my BBC, and have not had one boos hoot of a problem from it.
> [Stuff about who cares about size]
True, if it fits in then it is fine, but as I said, people don't make things
big for the fun of it. Comes back to this 'air of quality' again.
The power tracks are as big as the board! The power tracks are the middle
two layers on the board. >150mm square should be big enough :-)
>My Aleph One ARM3 I just looked at seems pretty well laid out to me. I
>can't see any lines running round the edge of the board.
In their advert you can see the clock line running to the top of the board
(as it is on the WE board, there is really only one way that chip can go
round, and the clock goes in the other place), but there are definatly other
lines running out from underneath the chip to other places. Who knows what
they are, but they are there (or they are at least in the AU advert I am
looking at)
>This is a rather sudden reversal of policy from Watford, who very recently
>sold 30 MHz ARM3 boards, many of which didn't work. At least Aleph One
>30 MHz boards worked!
The 30MHz versions were the PGA versions. I explictly said *surface mounted*
ARM3's to try and make the distinction. The PGA version was nothing to
do with me so I can't comment on that. Mind you, my 36MHz WE PGA ARM3 works
fine, and has done for the last 6 months (I had an old PGA ARM3 lying around)
> [Co-Processor connections]
>The Aleph One ARM3 also has these all tied to ground, so a tie on this
>point (neglecting other manufacturer's ARM3 boards).
The Serial Ports hasn't. Well done to Aleph for spotting that one.
> [Stuff about AU 8MB RAM Card Review]
WE did not *bully* AU into an aplogy. Their original review was seriously
technically flawed about the WE board, but also about the other peoples
board. Gnome weren't to happy about it either.
The aplogy was AU answer. A new review by a competent review would have
been nice, but it was up to AU what they did about it. As long as they
corrected the facts (like the address range of the ARM, nothing to do
with any of the boards) then that was acceptable. A new review might have
been better, but as I said, it was AU's decesion on how they corrected the
facts.
>This point I will concede. No ribbon cable is clearly better. However, there
>are enough other things wrong with the board that it loses out overall.
EH? This is what AU tried to say, and then backtracked. But then I
don't mind other peoples personal views on the subject.
>A) How many people do you know with four podules?
100, 200? Don't know, lost count. I have > 4 podules, hurry up the 8 way
backplane!
>B) The new Aleph One board (which I have seen) does not use a podule slot,
>it uses (as you say) the ROM sockets. An additional feature is that it
>gives you large capacity OS ROM sockets on an A440. Roll on Risc OS 3.
Good point. Nice feature, but is it worth the extra money. Cheap (#30)
upgrades will be available to convert the rom sockets when RISCOS3 comes
out.
>C) Lets keep personal insults out of what is supposed to be a technical
>discussion, shall we? :-)
Technical? I was just expressing my own views. Sorry, didn't realise I
wasn't allowed to do that.
>> 3) The WE board can take an ARM3 and place it in a much more sensible
>> place, right next to the vent hole on the right hand side of
>> the computer. An ARM3 can disapate up to a watt of heat, the WE
>> 8MB board places this nice little heat source next to the
>> ventalation hole in the archies casing.
>And at the same time blocks the hole up so that no air can get through it
>anyway. I am also concerned about the connector for the ARM3 board. Another
>connector adds signal delays (in addition to the delays from plugging into
>the ARM2 socket in the first place), and is it a reliable connector?
RUBBISH! (Sorry, had to use capitals again) The ventalation slot is covered
in the forward direction by about 5mm. Not negligable against the benifits
from improved ARM3 cooling.
e.g.
______________________
| : |
| : |
| : |
| : |
|__________________:_|
The dotted line shows approx how much the vent hole is covered when looking
from the side.
> [Stuff about hardware disabling the second MEMC]
O.K. Might be pointless, but it is there, it took no more chips to do it,
and I was making the point that disabling the second MEMC is possible.
The AU review said it wasn't.
>(Is there a problem with the switch interfering with your Caps Lock key? :-)
> :-) :-) :-) Use capitalisation sparingly - your text is hard to read.)
O.K. Point taken, I was just rather outraged at the *crud* that was in the
net postings lately.
>NVS did not tell me, and I'm not at liberty to say who did (sorry). I have
>no evidence either way, and if I'm wrong I apologise. The person who told
>me said he saw it at the Acorn User show. Would the person who told me
>care to comment?
Yes, I would LOVE to hear from this person as well, as would Mr. Nazir Jessa
M.D. of Watford Electronics.
>>The views expressed are of an ex Watford Electronics employee.............
>I have never worked for Aleph One or AtomWide, and praising their products
>gains me nothing. One wonders why you left Watford? :-)
Because I had to come back and finish off my Degree in Electrical and
Electronics Engineering at Brunel. I was on a 6 month thin sadwich placement
at WE, and thoughly enjoyed it.
J M Fielder
Now, that would be telling wouldn't it, buy one an find out :-)
Oh, it wasn't a press release actually, it was just me correcting some facts /
expressing some views.....
TTFN
Joust
Andrew J D Hurley
>cmar...@acorn.co.uk (Chris Marshall) writes:
>>> == sei...@freja.diku.dk
>>>> == osm...@acorn.co.uk (Owen Smith)
>>>
>>>Cost. It is #170 cheaper than Atomwide/Aleph One's upgrades. Both companies
>>>must have outrageous profits.
I can't comment on Arm3 Upgrades 'cause I haven't got one, but if you want
peace of mind and after sales service - don't go to Watford.
>>I can't really comment on the Watford vs. Whoever debate, much though I'd like
>>to. What I will say is this: Who do you think will give you the better
>>after-sales service? A large "box shifting" company??? I think not.
Precisely, that's all they do, shift boxes and they are not too happy
(or helpful) when you send one back the other way.
>What kind of service shold I expect anyway? Is serving tea & cookies
>worth #200? Either the ARM-3 works or it doesn't. If it doesn't, you
>will get a new one within warranty period, or else you may just as
>well thrash it (assuming the ARM-3 is broken).
See previous comment. Anyway, the cheap Watford upgrade is a relatively
new product, the other companies haven't had time to react yet. I am
guessing that Watford have started a price war that will ulimately
benifit the end user. Wait a little and I feel sure you will see
Atomwide and Aleph One selling for <300 UKL or even <200!
--
Andrew J D Hurley, ( aj...@stl.stc.co.uk )
Mail route: uunet!ukc!stl!ajdh | Phone: +44 279 429531 x. 2535
BNR Europe Ltd., London Road, Harlow, Essex CM17 9NA, UK.
Dave Gilbert
>During the 6-week or so wait, I phoned them regularly. One day it took me
>four hours to get to speak to someone. I was continually put on hold
>and then heard no more. As soon as I would open my mouth, it was 'just
>a moment please, I'm putting you on hold'. I finally got through to
>a real person by saying" Hello. PLEASE DO NOT PUT ME ON HOLD. I want to
>speak to anyone from sales. Please make sure you have someone on the
>end of the line before you put me through. I DO NOT WANT TO BE LEFT ON
>HOLD while you try to get someone." It really was that bad.
This seems typical behaviour for Watford - I've tried to get sense out of them
a number of times with out success - mind you its not
unusual for a lot of companies - unfortunatly.
The only time I did get some sense was when I reported a problem
in the scanner software for their hand scanner - after getting
through to someone and finaly convincing them of what I wanted to do
(You dont mean you want to save EVERYTHING which you scanned at FULL`
resolution????) - they sent me a software upgrade which he finaly new about,
I cant argue - it does work and the scanner board is reasonably well
made - although I wouldnt mind if the manufacturers of podules,
would give a bit of adjustable space - the length ofthe podule never
seems to be quite correct.
Dave
I got a Watford external drive interface which kind of hung on the
internal floppy socket, in a rather precarious way - it worked,
but it just wasnt well designed - I decided to use a podule
slot and get a beebug one - at least I can unplug my drive
without taking the top off!
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- Dave Gilbert - gilb...@p4.cs.man.ac.uk - The MTBF of a piece of equipment -
- G7FHJ@GB7NWP - is inversly proportional to its -
------------------------------------------- importance -
Nicko van Someren
>I'd pick Watford's ARM-3 upgrade at any time. Why?
>
>Cost. It is #170 cheaper than Atomwide/Aleph One's upgrades.
>
have put out. The Aleph One card if 299 and you can have it fitted to an
A3000 without invalidating the Acorn guarantee. Even if you don't have a
guarantee any more you should ask yourself why.
The difference in cost is quite simple. Watford spend less on building the
product, spend less on the service they provide and they don't give a fair
sized discount to dealers who want to give a customer help and support.
Nicko van Someren
>>Because it just so happens that AtomWide and Aleph One product quality is
>>signficantly higher than all the rest put together. In particular, I would
>>not dream of buying an ARM3 board or an 8 Megabyte memory upgrade from
>>anyone else. All the competitors' products have significant defects in them.
>
> the co-processor connections are left floating. Some even take
> these out to a little IDC connector!
The Aleph One ARM3 cards have always had the coproc. bus tied down as the
ARM3 spec. suggests that you do. (Aside, the coproc lines on the A5000
are not tied down, they go to a socket).
>B) As ACORN USER have found out to their cost, and have PUBLICLY apologised
> to WE over their artical on 8MB upgrades, the WE 8MB upgrade has many
> advantages over similar products.
AU apologised because Watford are the largest advertiser and treatend to
take away thier business.
> The WE card is the only 4 layer complete design that uses no ribbon
> cable (as far as I know, but Aleph wouldn't show us one, wonder
> why????? If I am wrong here, then please correct, and accept my
> apologies) to transfer memory signals. All the 4MB ram, and
> second MEMC is held on one 4 layer, ground and power planed board.
You have never asked me for an 8MB upgrade. By the way there is no
Aleph One 8MB upgrade, there is an Atomwide one which I designed. It
is on 2 4 layer PCBs connected by ribbon cable with interleaved grounds and
a signal path length less that that of the main RAM.
> 2) It takes up no podule slot. I think the new aleph one (or is it
> atomwide, or are they going to for another company tommorow to
> sell another product, who knows?) down't use up a podule slot, it
> sits in the ROM sockets. Oh, NVS, copied WE idea of not using
> a podule slot did you? Just like WE copied your VIDC Enhancer :-)
The original 8MB upgrade from Atomwide used a podule slot becuase in general
we build upgrades that plug into sockets were possable. A number of people
asked if we could change this. We now sell both a version that plugs into
the ROM sockets as well. Puerile comments like your last two sentences do
little for your credibility.
> 3) The WE board can take an ARM3 and place it in a much more sensible
> place, right next to the vent hole on the right hand side of
> the computer. An ARM3 can disapate up to a watt of heat, the WE
> 8MB board places this nice little heat source next to the
> ventalation hole in the archies casing.
The WE ARM3 sits in front of the ventilation hole oposite the fan. The hole
is there for a through-draft. Placing a card infront of this blocks the flow.
>>AtomWide and Aleph One products have a feeling of quality about them, the
>>hardware in particular. I hear that Watford are doing a kit that lets you
>>remove the soldered on ARM2 from an A3000 yourself at home by virtually
>>ripping it from the circuit board, so that you can fit an ARM3 board.
>
>WHO TOLD YOU THAT???? NVS from Atomwide by any chance????
I should remind you that libel is illegal. Of course it was not me.
>THE GUARENTEE ON ANY A3000 SENT TO WE TO HAVE AN A3000 ARM 3 FITTED WILL
>BE RETAINED. THIS HAS ALWAYS BEEN THE CASE, AND WILL ALWAYS BE THE CASE.
>
>YOUR *ACORN* GUARENTEE IS NOT AFFECTED BY GETTING WE TO FIT AN A3000 ARM 3
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is in direct contradiction to what I have been told by the technical
director of Acorn. I have coped this item to him and to Acorn's legal
department.
>
>NONE. Unless people send them to other companies other than Watford
>Electronics. NVS of Atomwide said to Watford Electronics representatives at
>the AU show that his company was trying to get approval for fitting ARM 3's to
>A3000's so that the guarentee would not be affected. Perhaps NVS would like
>to say if his companie(s) had achieved this.
I said at the Acorn show that we had ALREADY got approval for fitting ARM3s.
I can prove it to anyone who wishes to know, IN WRITING FROM ACORN.
> All of the A3000 ARM3's fitted
>already by Watford Electronics are all working perfectly, and still retain
>the ACORN GUARENTEE.
Please can you prove this IN WRITING FROM ACORN.
>Oh, on another note, the WE ARM3 upgrade does work with RISC OS 3, even though
>TWO people at the Acorn User show cam up to the Watford Electronics stand and
>siad that Atomwide had said that the Watford Electronics ARM3 didn't work.
It is unlikely that at present anyone could get a WE ARM3 (or anyone elses)
to work with RISC OS3 as you can not get RISC OS3 for anything other than
an A5000 at the moment. I was never asked if any ARM3 would work with
RISC OS3. I have no doubt that they will all work (as well as they do
normally).
>Now, NVS denied it entirely, but then who do you believe...........
I 'denied' it? In the past tense? You never asked me, nor did anyone else,
so how could i have 'denied' it. I should repeat my comments about libel.
>The views expressed are of an ex Watford Electronics employee.............
Who would have guessed? I my experience they are a large fraction of the few
who support Watford's 'quaility'.
Nicko.
P.S. To clarify to those who are confused. Aleph One Ltd. and Atomwide Ltd.
are quite seperate companies that happen to work together. I have done
design work for both of them. I am not and have never been an employee of
either. Aleph One Ltd. has been trading for 20 years.
Nicko van Someren
>into the header 'specifically placed there for that purpose' long long before
>he decided to produce on while down the pub one evening.
The plug is infact there not for crystal pluging but for GenLock systems,
hench the conector havinng the 'Restart the frame' signal to VIDC on it.
The VIDC Enhancer is a compleat bastardisation of that :-)
>Come on NVS, you haven't invented all of your products have you.....
Yup...
Nicko
Jens H. Ovesen
>During the 6-week or so wait, I phoned them regularly. One day it took me
>four hours to get to speak to someone. I was continually put on hold
>and then heard no more. As soon as I would open my mouth, it was 'just
>a moment please, I'm putting you on hold'. I finally got through to
>a real person by saying" Hello. PLEASE DO NOT PUT ME ON HOLD. I want to
>speak to anyone from sales. Please make sure you have someone on the
>end of the line before you put me through. I DO NOT WANT TO BE LEFT ON
>HOLD while you try to get someone." It really was that bad.
>That is the sort of backup *I* got from Watford...
I had the very same experience when ordering my A420/1. I'm *newer* going
to buy from WE again. That's a promise. Full stop.
>Graham
Jens H. Ovesen
--
Jens H. Ovesen / j...@imada.ou.dk
Tolderlundsvej 27, 4.tv.
DK-5000 Odense C, Denmark
Phone: +45 65 91 75 11
Colm Buckley
>If you catch Atomwide at the right moment, you can get tea &
>biscuits there :-) How's that for friendly service???
jkf...@ecs.soton.ac.uk (Field JK) writes:
>If you catch Atomwide at exactly the right moment on a quiet Sunday
>evening, you can get supper there !! Now _that_ is what I call
>friendly service.
If you catch Atomwide at exactly the right moment on a quiet night, you can
get a bed for the night, plump pillows, clean sheets, teddy bear, full
English breakfast, shower, a change of clothes and a lift to work. Now
_that_ is what I call friendly service.
Colm.
Field JK
>PS. If you catch Atomwide at the right moment, you can get tea &
> biscuits there :-) How's that for friendly service???
If you catch Atomwide at exactly the right moment on a quiet Sunday
Andrew J D Hurley
>gt...@gem.stack.urc.tue.nl (Graham Toal) writes:
>>During the 6-week or so wait, I phoned them regularly. One day it took me
>>four hours to get to speak to someone. I was continually put on hold
>>and then heard no more. As soon as I would open my mouth, it was 'just
>>a moment please, I'm putting you on hold'. I finally got through to
>>a real person by saying" Hello. PLEASE DO NOT PUT ME ON HOLD. I want to
>>speak to anyone from sales. Please make sure you have someone on the
>>end of the line before you put me through. I DO NOT WANT TO BE LEFT ON
>>HOLD while you try to get someone." It really was that bad.
>
>>That is the sort of backup *I* got from Watford...
>I had the very same experience when ordering my A420/1. I'm *newer* going
>to buy from WE again. That's a promise. Full stop.
It has to be said I had a pretty similar story when I bought my A3000,
and, like Jens, I vowed never to buy from them again. They even accused
me of trying to swindle them out of the monitor (for which I had an invoice
but no box), I eventually resorted to taking my friendly solicitor with
me, only then did we get it sorted.
Sorry, I was going to keep my beak out of this after my first comment,
but whilst we are all airing our gripes...
Whatever happened to "The customer is always right" or "The customer
always comes first"? With WE it's more like "Customers, what are they?
Oh, you mean those silly people that give us money?"
Don't get me wrong, Watford DO have good engineers, they DO produce good
stuff at competitive prices, and they are unlikely to go bust in the
near future. But when I buy something I like to think A) I am going to
receive it without going there in person with my solicitor, and B) I will
get reasonable after sales service.
Stuart Boutell
Aleph One/Atomwide and Watford Electronics!
To even up the balance (what? balance on UseNet! Never!) don't
forget that CJE Micros do a 25MHz ARM3 board.
I bought one for 199quid plus VAT at the AUShow, it was trivial to fit
and I have had no problems with it.
The guy on the stand didn't offer me lunch or a cup of tea, though.. :> :>
Does anyone _else_ make ARM3 boards that deserve a token mention/flame
in this discussion/flamefest?
Stu
My only connection with CJE is that I am a satisfied customer.
--
stu...@root.co.uk - the opinions are mine, the disclaimer is standard.
Michael Seifert
>nb...@cl.cam.ac.uk (Nicko van Someren) writes:
>>The views expressed are of an ex Watford Electronics employee.............
>Who would have guessed? I my experience they are a large fraction of the few
>who support Watford's 'quaility'.
Well I'm not. I don't support the quality, but I support the price. I seem
to recall that during the debate on the price and availability of the ARM-3,
someone stated that Atomwide, CJE (?) and Aleph One didn't profit very much
from the ARM-3 upgrades. How much is not very much? 100%? 150%?
If it wasn't for Watford I'm sure that the price for an ARM-3 would still
be above #400.
Philip Banks
Well we out here in New Zealand got our first look at the A5000 last
Tuesday on the 22nd of this month. I only got a brief play with it but
all the bugs I know of have been cured in the OS (the only one I didn't
have time to check was the filecore in use problem). Some of the new
features in Draw I absolutely *love* like the graduated fills between
two objects.... All in all Risc OS 3 ,while having noticable improve-
ments to the user, has most of its new wonders hidden away for the
programmers to enjoy.
We did discover a minor bug with Risc OS ,well more an annoyance
than anything else, but overall the OS seems very backwards compatabile
and even ran some of my more dubious bits of software with no problems.
Where major compatability problems are going to strike is in the
field of comms/serial work. The new device FS system appears to
totally ruin backwards compatability in this area. However the
extended facilities it offers seem well worth it. One of my minor
niggles with the machine is the lack of stereo speakers in this
machine.
It seems to me to be a crying shame that we have a beautiful sound
system in the Arc only to have it lose its stereo abilities without
plugging in speakers in the back. The only machine that doesnt
,the A3000, suffers from speakers that are too small for the task.
Perhaps in the next machine Acorn we can have stereo speakers by
default that are a little larger? This would be nice.
So overall my impression of the A5000? It makes a beautiful
developers platform and will be admirably suited to the more serious
home computer user (DTP users will like the faster font drawing speeds)
and I would dearly love to upgrade to one. Does anyone care to make
a sizeable donation to the `Save the Philip Fund'? :-) I would like
to thank Acorn for making the special effort to display the machine
to the New Zealand Acorn users here (Well the Wellington ones anyway.).
On another note has anyone else tried the Risc OS 3 CPU Useage task
that came through on the net not to long ago? I tried it on the
machine that night and it caused it to lock up... I want to know if
the copy I have is corrupt ,even though it unpacked okay, or
whether the application itself is at fault.
Philip
--
Philip R. Banks ban...@rata.vuw.ac.nz (An Arc owner with a mission) @@@@@/|
(Quite what mission I am not too sure yet. But I do have one!) @@@@/#|
"There may be an om in moment,but there's very few folk in focus!" @@@/--|
--'Hallowed be thy Name' by Emerson,Lake & Palmer. @@/###|
David Hazel
In article <cbuckley....@unix1.tcd.ie>, cbuc...@unix1.tcd.ie (Colm Buckley) writes...
>cmar...@acorn.co.uk (Chris Marshall) writes:
>>If you catch Atomwide at the right moment, you can get tea &
>>biscuits there :-) How's that for friendly service???
>
>>If you catch Atomwide at exactly the right moment on a quiet Sunday
>>evening, you can get supper there !! Now _that_ is what I call
>>friendly service.
>
>get a bed for the night, plump pillows, clean sheets, teddy bear, full
>_that_ is what I call friendly service.
>
Well, if you catch some banks at any time, you can get well and truly
screwed. And _that_ is what _they_ call service. :-) :-)
(By the way, thanks for that little bit of humour injected into this
thread. It made my whole day.)
>Colm.
David Hazel (Freelance, currently with Digital Equipment)
================================================================================
E-mail:
ha...@futurs.enet.dec.com
--or-- ...decwrl!futurs.enet!hazel
================================================================================
cab...@vaxa.strath.ac.uk
> P.S. To clarify to those who are confused. Aleph One Ltd. and Atomwide Ltd.
> are quite seperate companies that happen to work together. I have done
> design work for both of them. I am not and have never been an employee of
> either. Aleph One Ltd. has been trading for 20 years.
>
>
>
> +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> | Nicko van Someren, nb...@cl.cam.ac.uk, (44) 223 358707 or (44) 860 498903
> +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fair enough - but is there a family connection with Aleph? Some magazine
articles talk of "Aleph One's Alex van Someren". :-)
Gordon.
PS When are you going to invent an ARM3 board with a FPA socket?
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------
|G.N.Sinclair, Physics & Applied Phys Dept, Strathclyde University|
|JANET: G.N.Si...@uk.ac.strath.vaxa |
|Other networks: G.N.Sinclair%vaxa.strath.ac.uk@ plus one of: |
|BITNET: UKACRL UUCP: ukc.uucp Internet: nsfnet-relay.ac.uk|
-------------------------------------------------------------------
J M Fielder
> Please don't make sweeping generalisations. They are often incorrect
>and are very misleading. By the way what did you do at Watford? Make the tea
>perhaps?
Nope, I worked in the R&D department :-)
Joust
J M Fielder
>The difference in cost is quite simple. Watford spend less on building the
>product, spend less on the service they provide and they don't give a fair
>sized discount to dealers who want to give a customer help and support.
Not true, WE can buy them from VLSI at around half the price anyone can, and
we pass that saving onto the customer. We don't sell to dealers because WE
can't be sure of the support that those other dealers would give.
Half a million quid of ARM3's, that's more than Acorn buy!
Joust
J M Fielder
>The plug is infact there not for crystal pluging but for GenLock systems,
>hench the conector havinng the 'Restart the frame' signal to VIDC on it.
>The VIDC Enhancer is a compleat bastardisation of that :-)
True, but I love being a ba*tard to my computer :-)
Joust
Graham Toal
:P.S. To clarify to those who are confused. Aleph One Ltd. and Atomwide Ltd.
:are quite seperate companies that happen to work together. I have done
:design work for both of them. I am not and have never been an employee of
:either. Aleph One Ltd. has been trading for 20 years.
I rather enjoyed your rebuttal of the WE apologist's rant, but I think you're
being just a little ingenuous here yourself? Isn't Aleph One entirely owned
by your father? Is there a significant difference between being an employee and
being a heavily-used consultant? (Except to the taxman :-) )
G
Gavin Flower
In article <cbuckley....@unix1.tcd.ie>, cbuc...@unix1.tcd.ie (Colm Buckley) writes:
|>
|> If you catch Atomwide at exactly the right moment on a quiet night, you can
|> get a bed for the night, plump pillows, clean sheets, teddy bear, full
|> English breakfast, shower, a change of clothes and a lift to work. Now
|> _that_ is what I call friendly service.
|>
|> Colm.
*********** What actually is the business that Atomwide is in???
There had been a rumour that they sometimes sold memory boards.
-Gavin.
--
The main "user" of well brought up, and educated, children is the community
at large. So if you really believe in "user pays", charge the correct users
- stop overloading parents with financial penalties.
******* These comments have no known correlation with dept. policy! *******
Graham Toal
>I bought one for 199quid plus VAT at the AUShow, it was trivial to fit
>and I have had no problems with it.
>
>The guy on the stand didn't offer me lunch or a cup of tea, though.. :> :>
>
>Does anyone _else_ make ARM3 boards that deserve a token mention/flame
>in this discussion/flamefest?
Just Les Currell's home-made surface-mounted boards, which he turns out
at home for fun. Has anyone got one yet? Last I heard he'd made about 6, but
was hung up on getting more chips.
Graham.
PS I can't remember exactly how much he was charging, but it
was 100 <= x <= 200.
Gavin Flower
ban...@rata.vuw.ac.nz (Philip Banks) writes:-
[stuff omitted]
> Some of the new
> features in Draw I absolutely *love* like the graduated fills between
> two objects....
[stuff omitted]
"Praise be to the system, but can we please have one small change..."
- this was actually a last line of quite an interesting "story". - However...
[stuff omitted]
> So overall my impression of the A5000? It makes a beautiful
> developers platform and will be admirably suited to the more serious
> home computer user (DTP users will like the faster font drawing speeds)
> and I would dearly love to upgrade to one. Does anyone care to make
> a sizeable donation to the `Save the Philip Fund'? :-) I would like
> to thank Acorn for making the special effort to display the machine
> to the New Zealand Acorn users here (Well the Wellington ones anyway.).
[stuff omitted]
Yes I too saw the A5000,
and would also like contributions to my upgrade fund... :->
-------------------------
The graduated fill is good. some suggestions for improvement:-
- Ability to specify a function to control the interpolation of colours.
Currently it is a linear change. Sometimes it maybe desirable to have a log
scale of change or even some sort of sine function. It would be nice if an
arbitrary function could be specified, with linear as a default.
- Also currently the path is a straight line, again the ability to specify an
arbitrary path would sometimes be useful. Additionally being able to vary the
width of the path would also be good.
-------------------------
It would be nice if the ENVELOPE command was reinstated into Arc BASIC, some of
us actually took the trouble to learn how to use it... Also the Beeb software
which uses the ENVELOPE command would often run with out otherwise needing
emulation. With the power of the Arc sound system, this command could easily be
extended and still be backwards compatible with Beeb software.
("Beeb" ::= BBC model 'B', an 8 bit machine with a 2MHz 6502 processor and 32k).
-Gavin
User Support
> -- Stuff Deleted --
>
> - Also currently the path is a straight line, again the ability to specify an
>arbitrary path would sometimes be useful. Additionally being able to vary the
>width of the path would also be good.
>
poster creation, rather than rely on !FontFX and bit-mapping.
Rob
--
_________________________________________________________________________
/ | \
| Rob Turner | email : Robert...@brunel.ac.uk |
| Brunel University | |
| London, England | 'Life, don't talk to me about life' |
\______________________________|__________________________________________/
cab...@vaxa.strath.ac.uk
> If it wasn't for Watford I'm sure that the price for an ARM-3 would still
> be above #400.
You forget Ground Control - who were selling ARM3s at #299 inc VAT when Watford
were still charging 399 + VAT.
Ground Control is still cheaper than Watford now at #230 inc VAT and postage -
the Watford price is #233.82 plus postage.
Gordon.
gas...@urz.unibas.ch
>
> You forget Ground Control - who were selling ARM3s at #299 inc VAT when Watford
> were still charging 399 + VAT.
>
> Ground Control is still cheaper than Watford now at #230 inc VAT and postage -
> the Watford price is #233.82 plus postage.
>
> Gordon.
Are there any comments about the quality of that ARM3 upgrade?
Is it their own desing?
laci
SCS...@liverpool.ac.uk
other 'none special' modes at 100Hz instead of 50Hz. This is all very nice, but
mode 15 now 'blanks' when I use the floppy, and games total FREAK!
I'm not sure this is a bug or a feature. I'd like to have to option of not havi
ng this happen, but to be quite honest I quite like it.
Oh, and I LOVE mode 102! Great!
Jason Timmins My Card... +-----------------------------+
Dept. Of Computer Science, | |
University Of Liverpool. | Jayce T'mins |
JANET: SCS...@UK.AC.LIV.IBM | ("Pretentious, moi?") |
OR: SCS...@UK.AC.LIV.UXA | |
TELE: (UK) 0831 852787 +-----------------------------+
Michael Seifert
>You forget Ground Control - who were selling ARM3s at #299 inc VAT when Watford
>were still charging 399 + VAT.
>Ground Control is still cheaper than Watford now at #230 inc VAT and postage -
>the Watford price is #233.82 plus postage.
>Gordon.
Who is ground control? NASA? ;-) I have never seen any of their adverts
(if they have any)?
--Michael
--
Michael Seifert | OS/2 - The Nightmare Continues.. |
sei...@freja.diku.dk | PS/2+OS/2 = (PS+OS)/2 = 0.5*(PS+OS) |
----------------------------------------------------------------------+
Houston, this is Ground Control... :)
Nicko van Someren
>My Atomwide VIDC Enhancer has the curious side-effect of syncing all of the
>other 'none special' modes at 100Hz instead of 50Hz. This is all very nice, bu
>
>ng this happen, but to be quite honest I quite like it.
It's a bug! If you want a fix then send you original disc back and we will
send you a software update. Alternativly, you could get a copy of our new
mode designer program - I managed to make a mode 13 with a 125Hz refresh!
>
>Oh, and I LOVE mode 102! Great!
Glad you like it!
Nicko
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Nicko van Someren, nb...@cl.cam.ac.uk, (44) 223 358707 or (44) 860 498903 |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
J M Fielder
>It's a bug! If you want a fix then send you original disc back and we will
>send you a software update. Alternativly, you could get a copy of our new
>mode designer program - I managed to make a mode 13 with a 125Hz refresh!
A bit like WE's ARM3 program - all software can have bugs :-)
Joust
Gary K Smith
Just to mention another ARM 3 board the one by Serial Port.
I bought it at the AU Show - 280 pounds. They lent me a chip extractor
for free, I upgraded easily and quickly, and have had no problems with
it.
NOTE: A Friend of mine had many problems with his WATFORD ARM 3 board,
and ended up needing a new motherboard!
--
SCS...@liverpool.ac.uk
sent it.
Where do I get this mode maker thing from then?
Jason Timmins My Card... +------------------------------+
Dept. Of Computer Science, | |
University Of Liverpool. | Jason Timmins |
JANET: SCS...@UK.AC.LIV.IBM | (Did I say I loved you? |
OR: SCS...@UK.AC.LIV.UXA | What I ment to say was;fine) |
TELE: (UK) 0831 852787 +------------------------------+
mathew
It is rumoured that Watford have increased the price of their ARM3
board to #249.
It is further rumoured that Aleph One have decreased the price of
their ARM3 board to #249.
mathew
[ Coincidence... or conspiracy? ]
--
Another would-be Mac owner put off by Apple's monopolistic practices.