Risc PC keyboard
Peter Burwood
rearrangement of keys like ctrl is annoying (I keep on pressing CAPS LOCK),
and the having the copy key called end is stupid IMHO. However, worse than
all of these is that it has got a UK layout (e.g., shifted 2 = " not @).
Since I usually use VT style US keyboards at work (though occasionally a PC)
I'd like my old A3000 style keyboard back, but at a push I'll live with ctrl
and capslock being swapped.
Unless I can get a Archimedes style keyboard from somewhere I'll be getting
a US PC style keyboard. Will this work OK or is the software on the Risc PC
broken and map shift 2 onto " ?
copied to customer.services@acorn
regards,
Pete
-- E-Mail : p...@arcangel.demon.co.uk
dr...@madman.demon.co.uk
Peter Burwood <p...@arcangel.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Got my Risc PC at last, but I really don't like the keyboard. The
>rearrangement of keys like ctrl is annoying (I keep on pressing CAPS LOCK),
>and the having the copy key called end is stupid IMHO.
Drove me right up the wall when I was testing on a prototype at Acorn.
Keeped turning the caps on rather than getting a CTRL character. I was also
pressing the back of the keyboard where the reset sould be.
Really annoys me as I use upteen different keyboards at work including some
really non standard ones with various machines. My brain seems to be locked
in to expect a particalar keyboard for the type of machine.
I'll probably get used to it eventually. What will bugger me up aswell is
I currently have an A310 and an A5000 and as space is short the A310 kbd
sits nicely ontop of the ridge on the A5000 one. The A5000 keyboard isn't
going to sit on the PC style keyboard. And it won't look as nice :-(
>Unless I can get a Archimedes style keyboard from somewhere I'll be getting
>a US PC style keyboard. Will this work OK or is the software on the Risc PC
>broken and map shift 2 onto " ?
*Keyboard US should do it.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David J. Ruck BSc 17 AppleTree Close, Churchdown, Glos. England
DEEJ Technology PLC : +44-452-712925 : dr...@madman.demon.co.uk :
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Graham Allan
In article <7kdws...@arcangel.demon.co.uk>, p...@arcangel.demon.co.uk (Peter Burwood) writes:
|>
|>Got my Risc PC at last, but I really don't like the keyboard. The
|>rearrangement of keys like ctrl is annoying (I keep on pressing CAPS LOCK),
|>and the having the copy key called end is stupid IMHO. However, worse than
|>all of these is that it has got a UK layout (e.g., shifted 2 = " not @).
|>Since I usually use VT style US keyboards at work (though occasionally a PC)
|>I'd like my old A3000 style keyboard back, but at a push I'll live with ctrl
|>and capslock being swapped.
|>
|>Unless I can get a Archimedes style keyboard from somewhere I'll be getting
|>a US PC style keyboard. Will this work OK or is the software on the Risc PC
|>broken and map shift 2 onto " ?
Well, if you really like the VT-style keyboards at work, I think DEC sell
a version of their LK401 with a PC-style connector - this might work. Nicer
than most standard PC keyboards (no idea about the price though).
Graham
Nick Craig-Wood
> >Unless I can get a Archimedes style keyboard from somewhere I'll be getting
> >a US PC style keyboard. Will this work OK or is the software on the Risc PC
> >broken and map shift 2 onto " ?
>
> *Keyboard US should do it.
Except there is no country US according to Acorn!
*Keyboard Canada
Works ok, but you need to load the IntKey module first or else it just does
nothing.
-- Nick Craig-Wood (n...@axis.demon.co.uk) --
Nick Craig-Wood
> Got my Risc PC at last, but I really don't like the keyboard. The
> rearrangement of keys like ctrl is annoying (I keep on pressing CAPS LOCK),
> and the having the copy key called end is stupid IMHO. However, worse than
> all of these is that it has got a UK layout (e.g., shifted 2 = " not @).
> Since I usually use VT style US keyboards at work (though occasionally a PC)
> I'd like my old A3000 style keyboard back, but at a push I'll live with ctrl
> and capslock being swapped.
I posted a message to this effect a while back but it fell into a stony
silence. I've since been doing a bit of research and found a US layout
keyboard which is fully programmeable, enabling you to do things like swap
CapsLock and CTRL.
It has two less keys than the arc keyboard, the one with pound and space
invader that sits next to backspace and # on the numeric keyboard. Not a big
loss and CapsLock and CTRL are the wrong way round. Other than that all the
keys are correct.
And does it work? Well I only got it this morning, but so far yes it does.
The only problem I've had with it is that with CTRL and CapsLock swapped
SHIFT-CTRL-F1 doesn't work, although you can use the right hand keys if you
want instead.
> Unless I can get a Archimedes style keyboard from somewhere I'll be getting
> a US PC style keyboard. Will this work OK or is the software on the Risc PC
> broken and map shift 2 onto " ?
It's fairly easy to modify the InternationalKeyboard module driver to correct
this. You can also give yourself a pound sign on ALT-SHIFT-4 (= ALT-$) while
your're at it. If anyone is interested I'll post more details.
An alternative is to load the IntKey module (should be on a support disc
somewhere) and type
*Keyboard Canada
Peter Burwood
> In article <7kdws...@arcangel.demon.co.uk>,
> Peter Burwood <p...@arcangel.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >Unless I can get a Archimedes style keyboard from somewhere I'll be getting
> >a US PC style keyboard. Will this work OK or is the software on the Risc PC
> >broken and map shift 2 onto " ?
>
> *Keyboard US should do it.
Hmm, "*Keyboard US" gives "unknown keyboard".
Looking at the manual, it says the machine will recognise the keyboard from
the ID sent back by the keyboard, hopefully this will work. Also on page
3-778 of the PRM's it says
"If the given country is Default, then the keyboard ID byte (read from
the keyboard) is used as the country number, providing it is the range 1-31.
However, since under RISC OS 3 the keyboard ID is used to represent the
physical layout of the keyboard rather than the country for which it is
layed out, we recommend you don't use this option. (Standard Archimedes
keyboards all have a keyboard ID of 1, which would select the UK alphabet
and layout; the A4 internal keyboard and PC external keyboard each have a
keyboard ID of 2, which would select the French alphabet and layout.)"
Well that doesn't really help. Also note the Standard Archimedes keyboards
bit. Well the Risc PC has a keyboard ID of 1 and this isn't the standard
Archimedes layout is it Acorn!
I've just noticed that running the "!IntKey" application on the RISC OS 3.1
support discs "fixes" the layout - good ol US layout - shift 2 = @ - hooray!
Ian Palmer
: Got my Risc PC at last, but I really don't like the keyboard. The
: rearrangement of keys like ctrl is annoying (I keep on pressing CAPS LOCK),
: and the having the copy key called end is stupid IMHO. However, worse than
: all of these is that it has got a UK layout (e.g., shifted 2 = " not @).
: Since I usually use VT style US keyboards at work (though occasionally a PC)
: I'd like my old A3000 style keyboard back, but at a push I'll live with ctrl
: and capslock being swapped.
I can see why Acorn changed to a standard connector for the keyboard,
but I can not understand the switch to a shitty PC keyboard in layout
as the supplied keyboard. Given Acorn assumably commission the
keyboard in the first place (they need to be badged) assumable they
could have requetsed a keyboard with the standard Acorn leyout (of
old) but with a standard connector.
Two things really annoy me about the keyboard, the CAPSLOCK/CTRL and
the \| key between Z and SHIFT. The biggest problem I have with the
CAPSLOCK is not remembering it is there (I tend to remember that bit)
I just tend to forget whether it is actually SHIFT or CTRL I really
want - habbit it totally trashed and my mind goes to jelly and I have
to pause for aa few seconds.
As for the \| Key I keep hiting that every time I want to press SHIFT.
I know it something you'll get used to, but I don't particularly want
to get used to that layout of keyboard. Real computers don't tend to
use that layout ('cos it is basically a shite layout).
Ian
---
e-mail: i...@doc.ic.ac.uk
"An over-excited accountant, like the tel: +44 71 589 5111 (x7541)
University of Hull, is a contradiction fax: +44 71 581 8024
in terms." (Tom Holt, Flying Dutch)
___ _ Ian Palmer, Department of Computing,
/ _ _ /_) _ / _ _ _ _ Imperial College, 180 Queen's Gate,
____/__(_|_| )__/ __(_|_(_| ) )_|/_) _______London SW7 2BZ. England.____________
Bob Voisey
: Looking at the manual, it says the machine will recognise the keyboard from
: the ID sent back by the keyboard, hopefully this will work. Also on page
: 3-778 of the PRM's it says
Are you sure that this applies to PC keyboards? The old Arch keyboard used a
completely different (semi-intelligent) protocol which included a KBID code,
however as far as I can remember PC keyboards have no such code.
RQID EQU 020H ; Request keyboard ID
KBID EQU 081H ; Encodes keyboard ID
These are part of the Acorn kbd protocol, in this case encoding
keyboard ID 1.
KRESET EQU 0FFH ; Reset kbd
RESEND EQU 0FEH ; Resend last byte
KBDERR EQU 0FDH ; Diagnostics failure
KBDACK EQU 0FAH ; Byte acknowledged
DEFAULT EQU 0F6H ; Set default state
DISABLE EQU 0F5H ; Set default & disable scanning
ENABLE EQU 0F4H ; Flush buffer & enable scanning
SETTYPE EQU 0F3H ; Set typematic rate
BREAK EQU 0F0H ; Break (key up) code
ECHO EQU 0EEH ; Echo a response
SETMODE EQU 0EDH ; Set state of mode indicators
BATOK EQU 0AAH ; BAT successfully completed
OVERRUN EQU 000H ; Buffer overflow
EXTEND1 EQU 0E0H ; Extended prefix 1
EXTEND2 EQU 0E1H ; Extended prefix 2
This is, to the best of my knowledge, the entire PC AT protocol set,
and I don't see anything relating to keyboard IDs.
Therefore it will be necessary to set the keyboard type in software in a
RiscPC - I don't see how it could autodetect.
Cheers
Bob
--
Bob Voisey Tel +44 479 670058 Fax +44 749 670809 Mobile +44 831 628566
Simon Burrows
>I can see why Acorn changed to a standard connector for the keyboard,
>but I can not understand the switch to a shitty PC keyboard in layout
>as the supplied keyboard. Given Acorn assumably commission the
>keyboard in the first place (they need to be badged) assumable they
>could have requetsed a keyboard with the standard Acorn leyout (of
>old) but with a standard connector.
I'm not entirely sure of the parentage of the (UK) Risc PC keyboard
but I believe that it's an off-the-shelf design rather than custom
made. I think it would be sad if Acorn stuck with its own standard
keyboard layout - just to be different. Since a UK standard layout
exists, it should be used. Most of you lot whinging (:-)) aren't
typical Acorn customers anyway - I seem to recall swauchope@acorn
mentioning in a recent posting that Acorn can't hope to please all
customers all of the time - there's nothing to stop you buying a
replacement keyboard of your choice.
>I just tend to forget whether it is actually SHIFT or CTRL I really
>want - habbit it totally trashed and my mind goes to jelly and I have
>to pause for aa few seconds.
Duh.. 8-)
>I know it something you'll get used to, but I don't particularly want
>to get used to that layout of keyboard. Real computers don't tend to
>use that layout ('cos it is basically a shite layout).
Real computers? Remember Acorn's core markets and the environments in
which Acorn computers are likely to be used.
--
Simon
M J Ebourne
Simon Burrows <s...@cs.nott.ac.uk> wrote:
>I'm not entirely sure of the parentage of the (UK) Risc PC keyboard
>but I believe that it's an off-the-shelf design rather than custom
>made. I think it would be sad if Acorn stuck with its own standard
>keyboard layout - just to be different. Since a UK standard layout
I'm sorry but I'm not letting you get away with that. It is the
PC which is different, and then even only the UK PCs. No other
computer I've found has that layout. This Solbourne I'm using
certainly hasn't. Ok, so there are more PCs than other computers
in general, but they are the exception.
>exists, it should be used. Most of you lot whinging (:-)) aren't
>typical Acorn customers anyway - I seem to recall swauchope@acorn
Typical Acorn customers? Are they not education? Are not most of
the computers in UK schools Acorn anyway? Do not those have a
sensible layout? How many PCs are in schools? Not as many as
Acorn machines.
People in schools are going to get the same hassle with having to
adjust to the keyboards as everyone else, except they'll no
doubt be using the new and the old ones side by side for many
years to come. It's going to be even worse for them!
>customers all of the time - there's nothing to stop you buying a
>replacement keyboard of your choice.
No, but its all more unnecessary expense.
--
Martin Ebourne "Pray that there's intelligent
Electronics, life somehere out in space,
Southampton University because there's bugger all
Email: m...@soton.ac.uk down here on earth." - Python
Darren Harvey
i...@doc.ic.ac.uk (Ian Palmer) writes:
>
>Two things really annoy me about the keyboard, the CAPSLOCK/CTRL and
>the \| key between Z and SHIFT. The biggest problem I have with the
>CAPSLOCK is not remembering it is there (I tend to remember that bit)
>I just tend to forget whether it is actually SHIFT or CTRL I really
>want - habbit it totally trashed and my mind goes to jelly and I have
>to pause for aa few seconds.
>
>As for the \| Key I keep hiting that every time I want to press SHIFT.
>
>I know it something you'll get used to, but I don't particularly want
>to get used to that layout of keyboard. Real computers don't tend to
>use that layout ('cos it is basically a shite layout).
>
near enough the same keyboard layout as that of the Risc PC's; so I'm going
to be happy (as soon as I can get my sticky hands on it...) with the
keyboard. Okay, so I wouldn't describe the computer as exactly a 'real
computer', it's only a COMPUSYS 66MHz 486 - but some of us do have to
stuggle - especially as there's a DEC ALPHA (150Mhz) three keyboards away -
now if you want a stupid keyboard layout, try look at some of those
keyboards...
Darren.
mcv
Since a whole thread about which keys everybody keeps mixing up is
going on, maybe it's interesting to hear that I keep mixing up the
'z' and the 'x'. Even though I've used computers for years, I seldom
hit the right key if I want one of these.
Can't they just build normal keyboards with the 'x' left of the 'z'?
Regards,
mcv. <><
Simon Burrows
>I'm sorry but I'm not letting you get away with that. It is the
>PC which is different, and then even only the UK PCs. No other
>computer I've found has that layout. This Solbourne I'm using
>certainly hasn't. Ok, so there are more PCs than other computers
>in general, but they are the exception.
Acorn is marketing it as a (Risc) PC - and presumably is only using that
keyboard layout for the UK market and others which like to follow it.
Let's put ourselves in Acorn's shoes for a minute, something which we all
in this group (myself included) often forget to do..
- Acorn's apparent policy is to use "standard" components wherever possible,
making the computers cheaper to produce and also allowing customers
to benefit from the economies of scale available when purchasing
upgrades/replacements.
- PC keyboards, off the shelf, are available dirt cheap in volume.
- Custom keyboards are much more expensive.
- Acorn wants the Risc PC to appeal to "traditional" PC owners.
- RISC OS 3.5 (also 3.1) supports different national keyboard layouts.
On the basis of the above, it makes sense to use an off-the-shelf PC
keyboard. Then there's the decision whether to use the UK or US keyboard
layout - since a UK design exists, many people would complain if Acorn
used the US design, especially since the UK layout is pretty widely-used
in this country.
As I said before, they can't please everyone all of the time - the standard
Risc PC keyboard is so cheap that there's no reason why you shouldn't
replace it with another keyboard of your choice, and keep the bundled one
as a spare. You seem to be suggesting an Apple-type approach, supplying
neither keyboard nor monitor - that isn't Acorn's way of doing things.
I personally use quite a wide range of keyboards - Acorn (BBC/Arc/RPC), Apple,
PC, Xterm, workstation, Amiga (rare!), ZX81, and have had no problem
adapting to the Risc PC keyboard over the past month, during which time it
has received a fair battering. Yes, it can take a little getting used to,
but shouldn't we consider the situation from all angles, not just our own?
--
Simon
Herbert zur Nedden
> In article <7kdws...@arcangel.demon.co.uk>,
> Peter Burwood <p...@arcangel.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >Got my Risc PC at last, but I really don't like the keyboard. The
> >rearrangement of keys like ctrl is annoying (I keep on pressing CAPS LOCK),
> >and the having the copy key called end is stupid IMHO.
>
> Drove me right up the wall when I was testing on a prototype at Acorn.
> Keeped turning the caps on rather than getting a CTRL character. I was also
> pressing the back of the keyboard where the reset sould be.
No fleames please, but I am happy about the new position of the CTRL key!
I hated the old position and was unhappy about the different sizes fo the
key caps and the lamp in the key which kinda prevented me using a soldering
iron to put things right. Thank you Acorn for gettig this one right!
BTW: now it is quite a bit easier to reach the left CTRL key which I need
quite often whereas CapsLock is the key with the highest life expectance
due to lack of usage.
Herbert.
--------------------------------------------------------------
Herbert zur Nedden, Headquarter of the German Archimedes Group
email: h...@archh.hanse.de voice: +49 - 41 07 - 99 00
snail: Alte Landstrasse 21, D-22962 Siek, Germany
dr...@madman.demon.co.uk
Herbert zur Nedden <h...@archh.hanse.de> wrote:
>No fleames please, but I am happy about the new position of the CTRL key!
>I hated the old position and was unhappy about the different sizes fo the
>key caps and the lamp in the key which kinda prevented me using a soldering
>iron to put things right. Thank you Acorn for gettig this one right!
A darn PC user me thinks.
When I want to know if caps are on or off I look at the caps lock key for
the light that should be there - just like on old type writters when caps
used to press in when on (not that I am that old ofcorse).
I don't like looking for some lights to the top right of the keyboard.
I shall be using a crow bar, solding iron and some glue to put matters
right on mine.
Herbert zur Nedden
> In article <7MqoJ...@archh.hanse.de>,
> Herbert zur Nedden <h...@archh.hanse.de> wrote:
> >No fleames please, but I am happy about the new position of the CTRL key!
> >I hated the old position and was unhappy about the different sizes fo the
> >key caps and the lamp in the key which kinda prevented me using a soldering
> >iron to put things right. Thank you Acorn for gettig this one right!
>
> A darn PC user me thinks.
If you consider yourself the PC user I can live with this comment.
If you think I'm the one - go pound sand...
The fact is just that the Risc PC keyboard has the more standard layout
and thus conforms to others around which you have to use every once in
a while - like those of a terminal on a main frame.
> When I want to know if caps are on or off I look at the caps lock key for
> the light that should be there - just like on old type writters when caps
> used to press in when on (not that I am that old ofcorse).
> I don't like looking for some lights to the top right of the keyboard.
> I shall be using a crow bar, solding iron and some glue to put matters
> right on mine.
This sounds good indeed - perhaps I'll go for that too when I get the German
keyboard from Acorn for my Risc PC.
Olly Betts
Herbert zur Nedden <h...@archh.hanse.de> wrote:
>The fact is just that the Risc PC keyboard has the more standard layout
>and thus conforms to others around which you have to use every once in
>a while - like those of a terminal on a main frame.
I believe most X terminals actually have the same arrangement as the
Archimedes. There was a thread in alt.folklore.computers about this a
week or two ago. The Arc seems to have several features borrowed from X
-- there's also 3 button mice and pop-up menus.
I'd personally go for both keys being Control and the caps lock key
being round the back of the computer somewhere.
Olly
--
And that's Ol if your outside London.
Ale Terlevich
|> I believe most X terminals actually have the same arrangement as the
|> Archimedes. There was a thread in alt.folklore.computers about this a
|> week or two ago. The Arc seems to have several features borrowed from X
|> -- there's also 3 button mice and pop-up menus.
|>
|> I'd personally go for both keys being Control and the caps lock key
|> being round the back of the computer somewhere.
|>
Well here, the SUNs and X terms have both sorts, (some of the older ones
even have 'mac' style without the keypad ) and it gets bloody confusing if
you're console hopping. I must admit though, at least for using emacs, the
arc style keyboard does mean less finger stretching.
Ale.
Alex McLintock
> I believe most X terminals actually have the same arrangement as the
> Archimedes.
That's not true since there is no common feature to all X terminal
keyboards, apart from (usually) having three button mice. I have used
so many keyboards it drives me up the wall. X provides some wonderful
tools to let you use almost any keyboard (including PC ones), but
they are a bugger to setup.
--
Alex McLintock [also ale...@biccdc.co.uk]
Olly Betts
Alex McLintock <ale...@biccdc.co.uk> wrote:
> ol...@mantis.co.uk "Olly Betts" writes:
>
>> I believe most X terminals actually have the same arrangement as the
>> Archimedes.
>
>That's not true since there is no common feature to all X terminal
>keyboards, apart from (usually) having three button mice.
I did say most, and implicitly meant CapsLock and Ctrl. I was basing
this on a thread in alt.folklore.computers a week or two ago [I read it
on the net so it must be true!], and it's true in my limited experience
of X terminals too. Same way that most PCs seem to have the other
arrangement.
Herbert zur Nedden
> In article <7MqoJ...@archh.hanse.de>,
> Herbert zur Nedden <h...@archh.hanse.de> wrote:
> >No fleames please, but I am happy about the new position of the CTRL key!
> >I hated the old position and was unhappy about the different sizes fo the
> >key caps and the lamp in the key which kinda prevented me using a soldering
> >iron to put things right. Thank you Acorn for gettig this one right!
>
> A darn PC user me thinks.
If you consider yourself the PC user I can live with this comment.
If you think I'm the one - go pound sand...
The fact is just that the Risc PC keyboard has the more standard layout
and thus conforms to others around which you have to use every once in
a while - like those of a terminal on a main frame.
> When I want to know if caps are on or off I look at the caps lock key for
> the light that should be there - just like on old type writters when caps
> used to press in when on (not that I am that old ofcorse).
> I don't like looking for some lights to the top right of the keyboard.
> I shall be using a crow bar, solding iron and some glue to put matters
> right on mine.
This sounds good indeed - perhaps I'll go for that too when I get the German
keyboard from Acorn for my Risc PC.
Herbert.
dr...@madman.demon.co.uk
>> Herbert zur Nedden <h...@archh.hanse.de> wrote:
>>> No fleames please, but I am happy about the new position of the CTRL key!
>and thus conforms to others around which you have to use every once in
>a while - like those of a terminal on a main frame.
Who wants a PC standard? Who says there is any real standard. If we see
two identical keyboards rounds here, its usually a replacement for a
broken one.
I want the same CAPS/CTRL layout as I was using on the BBC in '81.
And where the hell has the seperate '@' key gone? One of my
favourites that was.
Bumper sticker: Keep your distance, Intel Inside.