Some questions about developing for RISC OS

[Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson]

Dear c.s.a.p,

First question [and it maybe obsolete by the time you read this] is
about the DDE. I just sent a payment to ROOL (?) but did not get
an immediate download link. Is this normal? I believe I bought the
.zip download /only/ but I have no records of what exactly was bought
[yet.]

What is a good way to get started with programming for RISC OS? I used
to have an emulator with RISC OS about a decade or more ago, and back
then I played a bit with GCC, but never got really far, and I've pretty
much forgot /everything/.

For the record, I'm already proficient with C, C++, and other languages
and operating systems, including Posix. ARM and RISC OS are new to me.

I guess I'm going to need some hand holding with day to day operations,
and read the user's guide, and that's ok. I'll try to keep user
questions to c.s.a.misc though.

What do people /need/ for RISC OS? Where would my programmming efforts
be mostly helpful? I know what /I/ want to do, which may be completely
irrelevant to everyone else; so I make no promises on working on any-
thing in particular.

What are people willing to /pay/ for? If I can get my employer on board
and sell some software, then we'd be discussing a lot less time to
delivery than if I only work in my free time.

Thanks,
--
Johann | email: invalid -> com | www.myrkraverk.com/blog/
I'm not from the Internet, I just work there. | twitter: @myrkraverk

[Jean-Michel]

In message <NJQlH.155821$2N6.1...@fx04.am4>

Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <joh...@myrkraverk.invalid> wrote:

> Dear c.s.a.p,

> First question [and it maybe obsolete by the time you read this] is
> about the DDE. I just sent a payment to ROOL (?) but did not get
> an immediate download link. Is this normal? I believe I bought the
> .zip download /only/ but I have no records of what exactly was bought
> [yet.]

Hope you received it, if not check it is not mistaken for spam by your
internet provider, I already had the problem

> What is a good way to get started with programming for RISC OS? I used
> to have an emulator with RISC OS about a decade or more ago, and back
> then I played a bit with GCC, but never got really far, and I've pretty
> much forgot /everything/.

> For the record, I'm already proficient with C, C++, and other languages
> and operating systems, including Posix. ARM and RISC OS are new to me.

> I guess I'm going to need some hand holding with day to day operations,
> and read the user's guide, and that's ok. I'll try to keep user
> questions to c.s.a.misc though.

Ok

> What do people /need/ for RISC OS? Where would my programmming efforts
> be mostly helpful? I know what /I/ want to do, which may be completely
> irrelevant to everyone else; so I make no promises on working on any-
> thing in particular.

> What are people willing to /pay/ for? If I can get my employer on board
> and sell some software, then we'd be discussing a lot less time to
> delivery than if I only work in my free time.

> Thanks,


--

Jean-Michel

[Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson]

On 27/10/2020 7:40 pm, Jean-Michel wrote:
> In message <NJQlH.155821$2N6.1...@fx04.am4>
> Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <joh...@myrkraverk.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Dear c.s.a.p,
>
>> First question [and it maybe obsolete by the time you read this] is
>> about the DDE. I just sent a payment to ROOL (?) but did not get
>> an immediate download link. Is this normal? I believe I bought the
>> .zip download /only/ but I have no records of what exactly was bought
>> [yet.]
> Hope you received it, if not check it is not mistaken for spam by your
> internet provider, I already had the problem

It took a few hours, but I eventually got a receipt from Paypal, that I
paid for [DDE Zip Download] but so far, no email from ROOL that I can
tell, nor anything in my spam folder.

Am I supposed to get a download link in email?

I'll wait a few days before I try emailing ROOL.

[News]

In article <YaUlH.134492$2R2....@fx32.am4>,

Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <joh...@myrkraverk.invalid> wrote:
> Am I supposed to get a download link in email?

Yes, you get a link by email. However, everything is done 'manually',
including giving you a DEV number, and also hardcoding your ID into
the compiler binary, so it can take a couple of days to receive the
link.

--
Chris Johnson

[Theo]

Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <joh...@myrkraverk.invalid> wrote:

> What is a good way to get started with programming for RISC OS? I used
> to have an emulator with RISC OS about a decade or more ago, and back
> then I played a bit with GCC, but never got really far, and I've pretty
> much forgot /everything/.
>
> For the record, I'm already proficient with C, C++, and other languages
> and operating systems, including Posix. ARM and RISC OS are new to me.

Where does your interest and skill set lie?

There's various points in the stack you might start:

Desktop apps: C, C++, BASIC are popular. Other languages like Python and Lua are
a bit more niche (and more likely support is a bit more patchy)

(User-facing) Modules: filesystems, system services, drivers. That's mostly C (or
assembly, for the masochists).

Operating system: modifying deeper level stuff, porting to new hardware: C
or assembly.


The DDE is needed for actual OS development, but its C++ is ancient and the
tools can be a bit quirky (there's a Make but it's not GNU Make, for
example). GCC has good C++, shared library and cross-build support but
isn't supported for building the OS.

> I guess I'm going to need some hand holding with day to day operations,
> and read the user's guide, and that's ok. I'll try to keep user
> questions to c.s.a.misc though.

If you don't get answers here, the ROOL forum is also worth posting to.
(many only read one but not the other)

> What do people /need/ for RISC OS? Where would my programmming efforts
> be mostly helpful? I know what /I/ want to do, which may be completely
> irrelevant to everyone else; so I make no promises on working on any-
> thing in particular.

https://www.riscosopen.org/bounty/
https://www.riscosopen.org/forum/forums/2

There is typically a skills disconnect between people who can, say, debug
the USB stack, and developers who work on application code in BASIC. This
is why many bounties are slow to be taken up.

> What are people willing to /pay/ for? If I can get my employer on board
> and sell some software, then we'd be discussing a lot less time to
> delivery than if I only work in my free time.

The usual problem is the market size. People sometimes wave cash around
('I'll pay £50 for X') but if only three of them want it, it's not cost
effective. I'm not sure any RISC OS project is cost effective in terms of
commercial rates.

If any of the bounties work for you, that could be a place to start.

You could also ask if there are starter projects you could try.
(many open source projects have them, but ROOL hasn't traditionally)

If you have time you could commit, it could be worth talking to someone like
R-Comp to see what they see as pressing needs. They probably have more
contact with real customers than most.

Theo

[Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson]

On 27/10/2020 9:03 pm, Theo wrote:
> Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <joh...@myrkraverk.invalid> wrote:
>> What is a good way to get started with programming for RISC OS? I used
>> to have an emulator with RISC OS about a decade or more ago, and back
>> then I played a bit with GCC, but never got really far, and I've pretty
>> much forgot /everything/.
>>
>> For the record, I'm already proficient with C, C++, and other languages
>> and operating systems, including Posix. ARM and RISC OS are new to me.
>
> Where does your interest and skill set lie?

All over the place. I have a history of contributing to a wide variety
of projects, both as part of my work, and in my free time with open
source projects. My project history includes device driver code, though
what I can show would be software only projects [on my blog] for OS/2
and Illumos [formerly OpenSolaris]; database code, server plugins for
Postgres, SQL clients, and such things; some graphical and desktop
applications; and a whole bunch of other stuff.

That would make me a Jack of all trades, so to speak.

> There's various points in the stack you might start:
>
> Desktop apps: C, C++, BASIC are popular. Other languages like Python and Lua are
> a bit more niche (and more likely support is a bit more patchy)

A desktop app is something I might do as practice.

> (User-facing) Modules: filesystems, system services, drivers. That's mostly C (or
> assembly, for the masochists).

This would also be high on my list of interesting things.

> Operating system: modifying deeper level stuff, porting to new hardware: C
> or assembly.

This might also interest me, though it would probably depend on the
scope of any individual project.

> The DDE is needed for actual OS development, but its C++ is ancient and the
> tools can be a bit quirky (there's a Make but it's not GNU Make, for
> example). GCC has good C++, shared library and cross-build support but
> isn't supported for building the OS.

I tend to prefer C over C++ these days, and I try to avoid GCC when I
can, for my own reasons. That's why I went for the DDE to begin with.

>> I guess I'm going to need some hand holding with day to day operations,
>> and read the user's guide, and that's ok. I'll try to keep user
>> questions to c.s.a.misc though.
>
> If you don't get answers here, the ROOL forum is also worth posting to.
> (many only read one but not the other)

Thanks. Right now I'm one of them [posting here, not reading the
other.]

>> What do people /need/ for RISC OS? Where would my programmming efforts
>> be mostly helpful? I know what /I/ want to do, which may be completely
>> irrelevant to everyone else; so I make no promises on working on any-
>> thing in particular.
>
> https://www.riscosopen.org/bounty/
> https://www.riscosopen.org/forum/forums/2

I think the bounties and wish lists are something I'll look at more when
I've gotten some RISC OS experience.

> There is typically a skills disconnect between people who can, say, debug
> the USB stack, and developers who work on application code in BASIC. This
> is why many bounties are slow to be taken up.
>
>> What are people willing to /pay/ for? If I can get my employer on board
>> and sell some software, then we'd be discussing a lot less time to
>> delivery than if I only work in my free time.
>
> The usual problem is the market size. People sometimes wave cash around
> ('I'll pay £50 for X') but if only three of them want it, it's not cost
> effective. I'm not sure any RISC OS project is cost effective in terms of
> commercial rates.
>
> If any of the bounties work for you, that could be a place to start.

The bounties /may/ work, but I'll not start out with them.

> You could also ask if there are starter projects you could try.
> (many open source projects have them, but ROOL hasn't traditionally)

What do you mean with a starter project? I'm not familiar with the
term.

> If you have time you could commit, it could be worth talking to someone like
> R-Comp to see what they see as pressing needs. They probably have more
> contact with real customers than most.

Thanks, I'll keep it in mind when I have some experience to show.

[Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson]

Indeed, I got my link and dev id. I asked the installation question
in c.s.a.misc; it's a bit terse for someone brand new.

[Theo]

Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <joh...@myrkraverk.invalid> wrote:
> All over the place. I have a history of contributing to a wide variety
> of projects, both as part of my work, and in my free time with open
> source projects. My project history includes device driver code, though
> what I can show would be software only projects [on my blog] for OS/2
> and Illumos [formerly OpenSolaris]; database code, server plugins for
> Postgres, SQL clients, and such things; some graphical and desktop
> applications; and a whole bunch of other stuff.
>
> That would make me a Jack of all trades, so to speak.

That sounds like a good fit for RISC OS :)

RISC OS is simpler than most popular OSes today, so you can have more
breadth across different areas. Whereas in say Linux there's so much to
learn you can only really focus on one part.

> > There's various points in the stack you might start:
> >
> > Desktop apps: C, C++, BASIC are popular. Other languages like Python and Lua are
> > a bit more niche (and more likely support is a bit more patchy)
>
> A desktop app is something I might do as practice.

It's a good starting point.

> I think the bounties and wish lists are something I'll look at more when
> I've gotten some RISC OS experience.

It could be worth looking at, say, the git client as an example of something
that the community needs, and that could be done by someone with an
application-focus (ie no deep OS plumbing experience). You might not be
claiming the bounty as such but could provide a concrete project to think
about. It touches a number of cross-cutting issues (porting 'foreign' code,
keeping it maintainable, interfacing with the filesystem, making both
command line and desktop apps, etc).

> > You could also ask if there are starter projects you could try.
> > (many open source projects have them, but ROOL hasn't traditionally)
>
> What do you mean with a starter project? I'm not familiar with the
> term.

Many open source projects have enormous codebases. A beginner is utterly
overwhelmed by how much code there is, and where to start understanding how
it works. A starter project is something that the community wants that can
be done by someone who is not very familiar with the codebase. The
community gets the job ticked off, and the contributor learns how everything
fits together by working on the codebase.

'Google Summer of Code' is a programme that encourages new (student)
contributors, and GSoC projects are often designed in this kind of way, that
a new person can do in a few months of full-time work. The lists of GSoC
projects are often good starting points. Often OSS projects also have
starter projects that are much lighter than that - can be done in a few
dozen hours by a new contributor.

RISC OS doesn't have that kind of programme, but it could be worth asking
the ROOL forum to suggest such projects.
(although be aware there's a minority on the forum that can be quite vocal
about what's - and what's not - important to them)

Theo

[Bryan Hogan]

Welcome Johann, always good to see new programmers here, RISC OS certainly
needs them!

In message <NJQlH.155821$2N6.1...@fx04.am4>

Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <joh...@myrkraverk.invalid> wrote:

> What is a good way to get started with programming for RISC OS? I used
> to have an emulator with RISC OS about a decade or more ago, and back
> then I played a bit with GCC, but never got really far, and I've pretty
> much forgot /everything/.

Steve Fryatt has lots of useful stuff on his site, including an excellent
Wimp programming in C tutorial:

http://stevefryatt.org.uk/risc-os

For an emulator, download RPCEmu here:

http://www.marutan.net/rpcemu/easystart.html

As others have mentioned, most RISC OS developers hang out on the ROOL
forum, and there's documentation on their wiki too:

https://www.riscosopen.org/forum/
https://www.riscosopen.org/wiki/documentation/show/HomePage

> For the record, I'm already proficient with C, C++, and other languages
> and operating systems, including Posix. ARM and RISC OS are new to me.

RISC OS is very much NOT posix, so prepare to learn whole new ways of
doing things!

> What do people /need/ for RISC OS? Where would my programmming efforts
> be mostly helpful? I know what /I/ want to do, which may be completely
> irrelevant to everyone else; so I make no promises on working on any-
> thing in particular.

You'll be much more productive on things you're insterested in, so just
have fun tinkering and see where it leads you :-)

> What are people willing to /pay/ for? If I can get my employer on board
> and sell some software, then we'd be discussing a lot less time to
> delivery than if I only work in my free time.

The market is very small, so you'll never get enough income for commercial
programming rates, but might manage some beer money!

You could also contact the Cloverleaf project as they have plans to pay
for some app development:

https://riscoscloverleaf.com/

Bryan.

--
RISC OS User Group Of London - http://www.rougol.jellybaby.net/
RISC OS London Show - http://www.riscoslondonshow.co.uk/

[Theo]

Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <joh...@myrkraverk.invalid> wrote:

> What is a good way to get started with programming for RISC OS? I used
> to have an emulator with RISC OS about a decade or more ago, and back
> then I played a bit with GCC, but never got really far, and I've pretty
> much forgot /everything/.

Just to add there's a new thread on this on the ROOL forum - it's good at
going into the pros and cons of various approaches:
https://www.riscosopen.org/forum/forums/11/topics/15803

Theo

[Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson]

Dear c.s.a.p,

Life happened and I had to put RISC OS programming on hold for a
while. I've now installed the DDE and successfully compiled some
sample code, as covered in the README.

I am using DDE 30, as updated a few days after I bought my copy.

When I originally emailed ROOL to subscribe to my yearly updates,
I got an error message, as that email address seems to be non-
functioning. I don't know if this is automated now, or if it's
just because the updated came so shorly aftewards that they decided
to email me with it anyway.

What is the proper way to contact ROOL about this?

Side question: should I keep my developer ID secret?

A question I had in the bounced email, was

>> OTHER NOTES
>> We suggest you use the official RISC OS build environment rather than
>> tools such as !Make (which is still included as a legacy option).
>> https://www.riscosopen.org/wiki/documentation/pages/Technical+notes

> This link is now empty, with a notice that it's been merged into two
> different categories. I don't know what you're trying to say here.

so there seems to be a discrepancy between the email advice and the
wiki. I'll repeat that I don't know what ROOL is trying to tell me.

I also noticed that I have a /lot/ to learn about RISC OS itself.
The provided User Guide is nice, but if anyone has written a short
document on getting up to speed with RISC OS when coming from another
system[1], I'd welcome it.

As others have pointed out, the webforums are a nice resource, and I may
move my questions to over there; or duplicate them here. I also have
some user questions, for which I'll stick to the non-programming groups
for now.


[1] I am familiar with most other current systems, for some value of
/current/.

[Steve Fryatt]

On 18 Jan, you wrote:

> When I originally emailed ROOL to subscribe to my yearly updates, I got an
> error message, as that email address seems to be non- functioning. I
> don't know if this is automated now, or if it's just because the updated
> came so shorly aftewards that they decided to email me with it anyway.
>
> What is the proper way to contact ROOL about this?

There's a contact email given in the documentation, I think. That said, ROOL
are a "spare-time" operation, so often asking in the ROOL forums is the
quickest way to get an answer.

https://www.riscosopen.org/forum

> Side question: should I keep my developer ID secret?

That seems wise.

> A question I had in the bounced email, was
>
> >> OTHER NOTES
> >> We suggest you use the official RISC OS build environment rather than
> >> tools such as !Make (which is still included as a legacy option).
> >> https://www.riscosopen.org/wiki/documentation/pages/Technical+notes
>
> > This link is now empty, with a notice that it's been merged into two
> > different categories. I don't know what you're trying to say here.
>
> so there seems to be a discrepancy between the email advice and the wiki.

Only in the sense that the page has been split into separate sections for
programming (in all the senses) and extra stuff related to developing
RISC OS itself. It was getting confusing before, IIRC.

> I'll repeat that I don't know what ROOL is trying to tell me.

In the quote above? Simply what they say: don't use the Make application,
which is a legacy thing; use Amu, which is more like what Make is on other
systems.

Also, use the project templates and Shared Makefiles (which are powered by
Amu) for new projects when possible, as they're far easier to maintain. In
and amongst the other stuff, there's some info on Shared Makefiles here:

http://www.stevefryatt.org.uk/risc-os/wimp-prog/a-better-way-to-compile

--
Steve Fryatt - Leeds, England

http://www.stevefryatt.org.uk/

[Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson]

On 18/01/2021 11:04 pm, Steve Fryatt wrote:
> On 18 Jan, you wrote:
>
>> When I originally emailed ROOL to subscribe to my yearly updates, I got an
>> error message, as that email address seems to be non- functioning. I
>> don't know if this is automated now, or if it's just because the updated
>> came so shorly aftewards that they decided to email me with it anyway.
>>
>> What is the proper way to contact ROOL about this?
>
> There's a contact email given in the documentation, I think. That said, ROOL
> are a "spare-time" operation, so often asking in the ROOL forums is the
> quickest way to get an answer.
>
> https://www.riscosopen.org/forum

Hmm, ok. At least for people who websearch, they might benefit from a
recap there.

[snip]

>> I'll repeat that I don't know what ROOL is trying to tell me.
>
> In the quote above? Simply what they say: don't use the Make application,
> which is a legacy thing; use Amu, which is more like what Make is on other
> systems.
>
> Also, use the project templates and Shared Makefiles (which are powered by
> Amu) for new projects when possible, as they're far easier to maintain. In
> and amongst the other stuff, there's some info on Shared Makefiles here:
>
> http://www.stevefryatt.org.uk/risc-os/wimp-prog/a-better-way-to-compile
>

Thank you. I used these instructions to type in and compile my own
hello world; I copied over the Makefile and Obey scripts.

I had previously run into the dreaded DDE30 bug described here.

https://www.riscosopen.org/forum/forums/4/topics/15809

There is no open bug report about it, so I have no idea if it's been
fixed by now, that I found.

[Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson]

On 30/10/2020 4:25 am, Bryan Hogan wrote:
> RISC OS is very much NOT posix, so prepare to learn whole new ways of
> doing things!

[Answering this months later.]

Yes, I've been through that culture shock before, when I dove into
OpenVMS. RISC OS is not only /not/ Posix, it's also /not/ VMS, /nor/
is it DOS/OS/2/Windows either.

The User Guide that comes with the system is nice, but a little bit
long to read, for people who come to the system from elesewhere, and
need a /what's different/ guide more than a total newbie guide.

If there is a /what's different/ guide out there, I have not come
across it. Maybe I'll try to write one, or maybe not. It shouldn't
be hard to write, but needs to focus less on the GUI which is easy
enough once you know there's a menu button, and more on what characters
are valid in file systems, what the separator is, what the character
for /previous directory/ is, what *commands are; and so forth -- in my
opinon.

[I'll consider answer the other points later on, when I have more
programming experience under my belt.]

[Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson]

On 03/11/2020 10:31 am, Theo wrote:
> Just to add there's a new thread on this on the ROOL forum - it's good at
> going into the pros and cons of various approaches:
> https://www.riscosopen.org/forum/forums/11/topics/15803

Thank you, I've been browsing throug hit now.

[Harriet Bazley]

On 19 Jan 2021 as I do recall,
Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson wrote:

[snip]

> If there is a /what's different/ guide out there, I have not come
> across it. Maybe I'll try to write one, or maybe not. It shouldn't
> be hard to write, but needs to focus less on the GUI which is easy
> enough once you know there's a menu button, and more on what characters
> are valid in file systems, what the separator is, what the character
> for /previous directory/ is, what *commands are; and so forth -- in my
> opinon.

The GUI was the selling point for RISC OS, which wasn't really targetted
at command-line programmers - most users today probably don't have the
faintest idea what the character for 'go up a directory' is, and few of
them type in anything other than a leafname, since all files are
normally saved by drag and drop from a 'savebox' and the destination
directory is selected visually.

Knowledge on that level ceased to be important to the general user once
the days of the BBC Micro were over. (I think the RISC OS 2/3 User
Guides may contain more useful stuff about 'star commands' and system
variables than the later ones, which is why I hung onto mine.)


But a "what's different" guide from the *programmer's* point of view
would be potentially a very useful resource - you really do need to be a
new user yourself to know what is non-obvious to new users and what the
important bits of information are.

--
Harriet Bazley == Loyaulte me lie ==

Many are called, few are chosen. Fewer still get to do the choosing.

[druck]

On 20/01/2021 01:19, Harriet Bazley wrote:
> The GUI was the selling point for RISC OS, which wasn't really targetted
> at command-line programmers - most users today probably don't have the
> faintest idea what the character for 'go up a directory' is, and few of
> them type in anything other than a leafname, since all files are
> normally saved by drag and drop from a 'savebox' and the destination
> directory is selected visually.
>
> Knowledge on that level ceased to be important to the general user once
> the days of the BBC Micro were over. (I think the RISC OS 2/3 User
> Guides may contain more useful stuff about 'star commands' and system
> variables than the later ones, which is why I hung onto mine.)

One command line thing dating back to the BBC Micro caught out a new
user recently. They found that doing a *Help Commands in a graphic task
window or bash window would grind to a halt stop and lock up the
desktop, but it wasn't a bug.

This is down to paging mode, first seen on the BBC Micro, where the OS
would stop after each screen full of output, so you could read it, and
you then pressed shift to show the next page. This is similar to the
Unix more or less programs, but with one crucial difference - there is
no indication on screen that you need to press anything to continue.

Normally page mode is only invoked outside the desktop or from the F12
prompt, it's not normally supported by taskwindow handlers such as Edit
or Zap. But !GraphTask, and it seems bash, do pass the Ctrl+N code which
enables paging to the VDU system. I did think of disabling it, but then
having the output pause in a graphic task window is still useful, as it
doesn't have any scrollback capability.

---druck

[Jonathan Harston]

On Wednesday, 20 January 2021 at 15:35:28 UTC, druck wrote:
> would stop after each screen full of output, so you could read it, and
> you then pressed shift to show the next page. This is similar to the
> Unix more or less programs, but with one crucial difference - there is
> no indication on screen that you need to press anything to continue.

Doesn't the Shift Lock light come on.... oh! ;)

jgh

[druck]

I'd forgotten the Beeb did that. Maybe someone could write a module to
illuminate scroll lock light in paged mode, as this feature is an auto
scroll lock. Although I see a lot a keyboards now leaving out the scroll
lock light.

---druck