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ADFS FileSystem for Modern MS-Windows...
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Gazza
May 9, 2012, 8:19:33 PM5/9/12
to
I know this is not strictly csap related, but a question to anyone in
the know...
How feasible would it be to write what I can only describe as a block
driver and FileSystem that would install into a x86 or x64 flavour of
Windows to at least allow reading of RISC OS floppy disks direct from
A:?
It doesn't have to be limited to floppy disks either, I'm only
guessing, but I can't think that it would be that bigger jump to allow
us to at least, read USB sticks, external drives etc. formatted for
ADFS.
Does such a device driver & filesystem combo already exist for
Windows? If so, could someone point me to it.
I'm aware of the hardware issues, I'm also aware of system drivers
that poke holes in the HAL and allow direct access to hardware.
GiveIO, being one of them, there are more.
It would be handy to be able to read ADFS media natively from inside a
Windows box, if only to get a directory viewer, rather than that
dreaded "Disc not Formatted" dialogue that pops up every time.
the know...
How feasible would it be to write what I can only describe as a block
driver and FileSystem that would install into a x86 or x64 flavour of
Windows to at least allow reading of RISC OS floppy disks direct from
A:?
It doesn't have to be limited to floppy disks either, I'm only
guessing, but I can't think that it would be that bigger jump to allow
us to at least, read USB sticks, external drives etc. formatted for
ADFS.
Does such a device driver & filesystem combo already exist for
Windows? If so, could someone point me to it.
I'm aware of the hardware issues, I'm also aware of system drivers
that poke holes in the HAL and allow direct access to hardware.
GiveIO, being one of them, there are more.
It would be handy to be able to read ADFS media natively from inside a
Windows box, if only to get a directory viewer, rather than that
dreaded "Disc not Formatted" dialogue that pops up every time.
Gazza
May 13, 2012, 6:45:49 PM5/13/12
to
Thinking further on the issue, if we're adding support for HD floppies
(F/F+), then don't we already have the basis for HDD support etc
without the need for any further coding as 1.6M HD floppies are
actually formatted with the catalogue at the logical centre of the
disc, just like ADFS HDDs.
(F/F+), then don't we already have the basis for HDD support etc
without the need for any further coding as 1.6M HD floppies are
actually formatted with the catalogue at the logical centre of the
disc, just like ADFS HDDs.
Alex Macfarlane Smith
May 15, 2012, 3:23:37 AM5/15/12
to
On 10/05/2012 01:19, Gazza wrote:
> I know this is not strictly csap related, but a question to anyone in
> the know...
>
> How feasible would it be to write what I can only describe as a block
> driver and FileSystem that would install into a x86 or x64 flavour of
> Windows to at least allow reading of RISC OS floppy disks direct from
> A:?
> It doesn't have to be limited to floppy disks either, I'm only
> guessing, but I can't think that it would be that bigger jump to allow
> us to at least, read USB sticks, external drives etc. formatted for
> ADFS.
>
> Does such a device driver& filesystem combo already exist for
> I know this is not strictly csap related, but a question to anyone in
> the know...
>
> How feasible would it be to write what I can only describe as a block
> driver and FileSystem that would install into a x86 or x64 flavour of
> Windows to at least allow reading of RISC OS floppy disks direct from
> A:?
> It doesn't have to be limited to floppy disks either, I'm only
> guessing, but I can't think that it would be that bigger jump to allow
> us to at least, read USB sticks, external drives etc. formatted for
> ADFS.
>
> Windows? If so, could someone point me to it.
>
> I'm aware of the hardware issues, I'm also aware of system drivers
> that poke holes in the HAL and allow direct access to hardware.
> GiveIO, being one of them, there are more.
>
> It would be handy to be able to read ADFS media natively from inside a
> Windows box, if only to get a directory viewer, rather than that
> dreaded "Disc not Formatted" dialogue that pops up every time.
I know that http://www.shlock.co.uk/Utils/OmniFlop/OmniFlop.htm has been
>
> I'm aware of the hardware issues, I'm also aware of system drivers
> that poke holes in the HAL and allow direct access to hardware.
> GiveIO, being one of them, there are more.
>
> It would be handy to be able to read ADFS media natively from inside a
> Windows box, if only to get a directory viewer, rather than that
> dreaded "Disc not Formatted" dialogue that pops up every time.
successfully used to read Acorn format floppy disks on a Windows PC - I
think it extracts it as a disc image though, so it's not 'browsable'
from Windows, but you can stick it into an Acorn emulator on the PC
easily enough.
I guess it might be feasible to write a filesystem on top of the code
that reads the disc image and actually accesses the ADFS filesystem.
Alex.
Rick Murray
May 15, 2012, 9:14:31 AM5/15/12
to
On Wed, 9 May 2012 17:19:33 -0700 (PDT), Gazza
<use...@garethlock.com> wrote:
> I'm aware of the hardware issues, I'm also aware of system drivers
> that poke holes in the HAL and allow direct access to hardware.
Good luck getting a USB floppy drive to read ADFS discs. Those things
<use...@garethlock.com> wrote:
> I'm aware of the hardware issues, I'm also aware of system drivers
> that poke holes in the HAL and allow direct access to hardware.
seem hardwired to the DOS 512 byte sector format.
I don't think you'll need GiveIO if you write a proper driver; and
without a proper driver, I think Windows would still complain about
the disc not being formatted?
Best wishes,
Rick.
Gazza
May 17, 2012, 8:09:51 PM5/17/12
to
On May 15, 2:14 pm, Rick Murray <heyrickmail-use...@yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:
Well... Good job I still fit internal floppy drives on the PCs I build
then... The only place for a USB floppy is a laptop as far as I'm
concerned. I know they're typically not used on a regular basis
anymore, but they are so useful for running diagnostic tools when
things go wrong, and absolutely essential for me as I run Windows XP
in a SATA RAID environment. Without the floppy drive, I couldn't have
installed the thing in the first place.
BTW:- It's not DOS that imposes the 512 byte sector limitation, it the
BIOS IIRC. Linux can read ADFS by circumnavigating the BIOS and
talking to the hardware directly. If Linux has already done it, then I
can't see why this codebase couldn't be ported to Win 32/64. Mind you,
I don't know the details.
wrote:
then... The only place for a USB floppy is a laptop as far as I'm
concerned. I know they're typically not used on a regular basis
anymore, but they are so useful for running diagnostic tools when
things go wrong, and absolutely essential for me as I run Windows XP
in a SATA RAID environment. Without the floppy drive, I couldn't have
installed the thing in the first place.
BTW:- It's not DOS that imposes the 512 byte sector limitation, it the
BIOS IIRC. Linux can read ADFS by circumnavigating the BIOS and
talking to the hardware directly. If Linux has already done it, then I
can't see why this codebase couldn't be ported to Win 32/64. Mind you,
I don't know the details.
David Holden
May 18, 2012, 2:15:48 AM5/18/12
to
On 18-May-2012, Gazza <use...@garethlock.com> wrote:
> Well... Good job I still fit internal floppy drives on the PCs I build
> then...
motherboards are you using?
>
> BTW:- It's not DOS that imposes the 512 byte sector limitation, it the
> BIOS IIRC. Linux can read ADFS by circumnavigating the BIOS and
> talking to the hardware directly. If Linux has already done it, then I
> can't see why this codebase couldn't be ported to Win 32/64. Mind you,
> I don't know the details.
No-one said it was the OS that imposed the 512 byte sector size. It's the
> BTW:- It's not DOS that imposes the 512 byte sector limitation, it the
> BIOS IIRC. Linux can read ADFS by circumnavigating the BIOS and
> talking to the hardware directly. If Linux has already done it, then I
> can't see why this codebase couldn't be ported to Win 32/64. Mind you,
> I don't know the details.
firmware in the USB drive. It doesn't matter what OS you're using with a USB
floppy it will only read/write 512 byte sectors (unless someone wants to
re-write the firmware).
There's absolutely no problem using ADFS discs on a PC. Virtual Acorn does
it and so does OmniFlop.
--
David Holden - APDL - <http://www.apdl.co.uk>
Theo Markettos
May 18, 2012, 5:04:31 AM5/18/12
to
David Holden <Spa...@apdl.co.uk> wrote:
> No-one said it was the OS that imposed the 512 byte sector size. It's the
> firmware in the USB drive. It doesn't matter what OS you're using with a USB
> floppy it will only read/write 512 byte sectors (unless someone wants to
> re-write the firmware).
It's not a problem with 512 byte sectors (the USB floppy standard includes
> No-one said it was the OS that imposed the 512 byte sector size. It's the
> firmware in the USB drive. It doesn't matter what OS you're using with a USB
> floppy it will only read/write 512 byte sectors (unless someone wants to
> re-write the firmware).
options for different sizes), it's that the standard provides no means to
read sectors numbered below 1 (ADFS numbers from 0, DOS numbers from 1).
Theo
cfe...@freeremoveuk.com.invalid
May 18, 2012, 5:39:56 AM5/18/12
to
In message <76v*Nq...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>
Does this mean that it can't read from a particular part of the disc?
Have a program '!InitDisc' - that initializes (not formats) a DOS 1.4
floppy into a RISC OS one of the same size.
If the PC floppy drive can read the DOS disc - why can't RS read the RO
version?
In lots of cases - it is just as easy to use DOS format disc - just put
the file in a Zip.
--
Colin Ferris Cornwall UK
Have a program '!InitDisc' - that initializes (not formats) a DOS 1.4
floppy into a RISC OS one of the same size.
If the PC floppy drive can read the DOS disc - why can't RS read the RO
version?
In lots of cases - it is just as easy to use DOS format disc - just put
the file in a Zip.
--
Colin Ferris Cornwall UK
Gazza
May 18, 2012, 1:04:03 PM5/18/12
to
On May 18, 10:39 am, cfer...@freeRemoveuk.com.invalid wrote:
> In lots of cases - it is just as easy to use DOS format disc - just put
> the file in a Zip.
>
Maybe so, but I have an always on PC which I use for quick tasks like
> In lots of cases - it is just as easy to use DOS format disc - just put
> the file in a Zip.
>
odd internet use, chucking files on and off the FileServer etc... I
can currently use my A7000+ to read/write DOS format floppies, but it
would be handy not to have to wait for it to start, if all I want to
do is see what format an unlabeled floppy disc happens to be.
Something, which would be a 2 sec. job if I had some sort of driver in
the always on PC that could bring up a directory window natively in
whichever of the two formats it happened to be in.
Someone else asked me what mobos I have installed, both are GigaByte,
the Intel one in an EP45 UD3P, the other is an AM2 socket fitted with
a 4200+ CPU. Not sure off the top of my head the model number, but
yes, they both natively support floppies. Like I mentioned in a
previous post, I have Win XP installed on a SATA RAID mirror. One
thing that can't be done without an FDD to load the drivers using F6
from the installer.
Rick Murray
May 25, 2012, 9:42:40 PM5/25/12
to
On Thu, 17 May 2012 17:09:51 -0700 (PDT), Gazza
<use...@garethlock.com> wrote:
> concerned. I know they're typically not used on a regular basis
> anymore, but they are so useful for running diagnostic tools when
> things go wrong, and absolutely essential for me as I run Windows XP
CD-ROM? When it all goes to hell, I boot to Hirren's CD and fire up
<use...@garethlock.com> wrote:
> concerned. I know they're typically not used on a regular basis
> anymore, but they are so useful for running diagnostic tools when
> things go wrong, and absolutely essential for me as I run Windows XP
ntsfchk... It is also amusing that doing it that way can also tell me
XP's admin password in, like, ten seconds. Nice security, guys...
> BTW:- It's not DOS that imposes the 512 byte sector limitation, it
the
> BIOS IIRC. Linux can read ADFS by circumnavigating the BIOS and
Otherwise, of course it'll work with a real FDC - if you think, the
RiscPC (etc) uses a combi-I/O chip, just like PCs of the era...
Best wishes,
Rick.
Theo Markettos
May 26, 2012, 9:35:14 AM5/26/12
to
cfe...@freeremoveuk.com.invalid wrote:
> In message <76v*Nq...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>
> Theo Markettos <theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> > It's not a problem with 512 byte sectors (the USB floppy standard
> > includes options for different sizes), it's that the standard
> > provides no means to read sectors numbered below 1 (ADFS numbers from
> > 0, DOS numbers from 1).
> >
>
> Does this mean that it can't read from a particular part of the disc?
Yes... floppies have two sides, which are divided into tracks (eg 80
> In message <76v*Nq...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>
> Theo Markettos <theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> > It's not a problem with 512 byte sectors (the USB floppy standard
> > includes options for different sizes), it's that the standard
> > provides no means to read sectors numbered below 1 (ADFS numbers from
> > 0, DOS numbers from 1).
> >
>
> Does this mean that it can't read from a particular part of the disc?
tracks), a track being a circle on the disc. Each track is divided into
sectors, a sector being a small arc of the circle. The number of sectors
varies depending on the data density and sector size - it's five 1024-byte
sectors numbered 0-4 for an E format disc. Due to the numbering issue, a
drive that can't read sector 0 can only read 1-4 and will miss out on every
fifth sector... in other words big chunks of data will be inaccessible.
> Have a program '!InitDisc' - that initializes (not formats) a DOS 1.4
> floppy into a RISC OS one of the same size.
>
> If the PC floppy drive can read the DOS disc - why can't RS read the RO
> version?
happens to match DOS, and ADFS should cope with that. Back in the 90s there
were some 'special' ADFS formatter programs that did similar things to squeeze
out more space from a disc by pushing the drive hardware past the advertised
limits - like having 82 tracks and similar. Such a disc should be readable
on a USB drive.
But this is a 'special' format... might be handy for copying things from an
A5000 without other connectivity, but not for reading old floppies you
already have (which is what most people want to do).
> In lots of cases - it is just as easy to use DOS format disc - just put
> the file in a Zip.
Theo
Gazza
May 27, 2012, 4:05:24 AM5/27/12
to
I guess it would be a nice bonus to know what's on the disc at the
same time, but even something that drops into the Windows Explorer
shell that understands the format enough to tell me that it's an ADFS
disc would be nice. Rather than that "Disc not formatted.." message,
which so many people take to mean exactly what it says. I've taken to
hiding all my floppies at the club now, because people were taking
them, trying them in PCs, getting the "Disc not formatted.." message
and proceeding to format them. Lord knows how many times I lost stuff
like that.
same time, but even something that drops into the Windows Explorer
shell that understands the format enough to tell me that it's an ADFS
disc would be nice. Rather than that "Disc not formatted.." message,
which so many people take to mean exactly what it says. I've taken to
hiding all my floppies at the club now, because people were taking
them, trying them in PCs, getting the "Disc not formatted.." message
and proceeding to format them. Lord knows how many times I lost stuff
like that.
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