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BT and the Copper Wire dump in favour of the Cable
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Dave
Nov 15, 2021, 11:02:47 AM11/15/21
to
G'day folks,
I've been trying to read up about the BT move (Now in action) to dump
copper wire connections and only have cable, but the info I've read is not
very illuminating.
I'm wondering if anyone here can illuminate a couple of points for me?
1) If they use FTTC and the BT cabinet is some way down the road as it is
here, How do they then connect to my house?
2) If they connect FTTP and bring the cable right to the wall of my house,
what happens from their (I guess junction box) to connect inside the house
to the Networking Router and phones?
Thanks
Dave
--
Dave Triffid
I've been trying to read up about the BT move (Now in action) to dump
copper wire connections and only have cable, but the info I've read is not
very illuminating.
I'm wondering if anyone here can illuminate a couple of points for me?
1) If they use FTTC and the BT cabinet is some way down the road as it is
here, How do they then connect to my house?
2) If they connect FTTP and bring the cable right to the wall of my house,
what happens from their (I guess junction box) to connect inside the house
to the Networking Router and phones?
Thanks
Dave
--
Dave Triffid
Chris Hughes
Nov 15, 2021, 11:22:37 AM11/15/21
to
In message <598bd51...@triffid.co.uk>
service if you choose to keep it will be supplied as VoIP (Voice over
Internet Protocol), and in the majority of cases you should be able to
retain your existing phone number. So basically it means your phone calls
go via the internet instead. (longer term is that your phone number
including what was called your STD code will stay with you even if you
move to another part of the UK, so its been said)
If you do not want broadband at all, they will supply a very basic VoIP
service with a 0.5Mb internet connection via your existing line.
> 2) If they connect FTTP and bring the cable right to the wall of my house,
> what happens from their (I guess junction box) to connect inside the house
> to the Networking Router and phones?
They fit what is called ONT to your property and your fibre router with
VoIP facility is connected to that (there will be a digital VoIP socket on
the router to plug your phone in to).
If its Virgin Cable its done bit differently.
--
Chris Hughes
Dave <da...@triffid.co.uk> wrote:
> G'day folks,
> I've been trying to read up about the BT move (Now in action) to dump
> copper wire connections and only have cable, but the info I've read is not
> very illuminating.
> I'm wondering if anyone here can illuminate a couple of points for me?
> 1) If they use FTTC and the BT cabinet is some way down the road as it is
> here, How do they then connect to my house?
Exactly the same as now, the only difference will be that your phone
> G'day folks,
> I've been trying to read up about the BT move (Now in action) to dump
> copper wire connections and only have cable, but the info I've read is not
> very illuminating.
> I'm wondering if anyone here can illuminate a couple of points for me?
> 1) If they use FTTC and the BT cabinet is some way down the road as it is
> here, How do they then connect to my house?
service if you choose to keep it will be supplied as VoIP (Voice over
Internet Protocol), and in the majority of cases you should be able to
retain your existing phone number. So basically it means your phone calls
go via the internet instead. (longer term is that your phone number
including what was called your STD code will stay with you even if you
move to another part of the UK, so its been said)
If you do not want broadband at all, they will supply a very basic VoIP
service with a 0.5Mb internet connection via your existing line.
> 2) If they connect FTTP and bring the cable right to the wall of my house,
> what happens from their (I guess junction box) to connect inside the house
> to the Networking Router and phones?
VoIP facility is connected to that (there will be a digital VoIP socket on
the router to plug your phone in to).
If its Virgin Cable its done bit differently.
--
Chris Hughes
Nigel Reed
Nov 15, 2021, 11:44:28 AM11/15/21
to
battery backup otherwise you have no phone service, and your days of
calling bulletin boards is over and done. Modems do not work well over
voip.
--
End Of The Line BBS - Plano, TX
telnet endofthelinebbs.com 23
Chris Hughes
Nov 15, 2021, 12:19:49 PM11/15/21
to
In message <20211115104...@wibble.sysadmininc.com>
If you are on the ISP's vunerable users list, you will be provided with a
backup battery (ofcom requirement I understand), otherwise you have to
provide your own.
They have assumed if the line goes down you will have a mobile to carry on
with.
--
Chris Hughes
backup battery (ofcom requirement I understand), otherwise you have to
provide your own.
They have assumed if the line goes down you will have a mobile to carry on
with.
--
Chris Hughes
charles
Nov 15, 2021, 12:58:32 PM11/15/21
to
In article <f741dc8b...@mytarbis.plus.com>,
Rash assumption. I rely on my mobile picking up my wifi to get a connection
indoors. Yes, I could go outside to find a signal, but that's not much use
for incoming calls.
--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle
indoors. Yes, I could go outside to find a signal, but that's not much use
for incoming calls.
--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle
Dave
Nov 15, 2021, 2:05:29 PM11/15/21
to
In article <bfb8d68b...@mytarbis.plus.com>,
There's a pole in the pavement about 50 metres down the road from which a
copper cable runs to my front Gable, so you are saying with FFTC (The
cabinet is way down the road) the connection will continue through that
Copper cable as it now is?
We already have broadband (Not BT) that comes down the copper cable as
does the phone...
We do not have any Fibre cable stuff at all.
> > 2) If they connect FTTP and bring the cable right to the wall of my
> > house, what happens from their (I guess junction box) to connect
> > inside the house to the Networking Router and phones?
> They fit what is called ONT to your property and your fibre router with
> VoIP facility is connected to that (there will be a digital VoIP socket
> on the router to plug your phone in to).
Mmnnn! The front of the house is where the copper cable comes inside to
the master socket, the office is at the back of the house and the copper
cable runs under the floors for 18 metres where its socket is connected to
the phone and Modem Router (TP-Link Archer VR2800).
How will the office modem router connect to the whatever, where the fibre
cable comes into the front of the house and ONT?
Chris Hughes <new...@noonehere.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <598bd51...@triffid.co.uk>
> Dave <da...@triffid.co.uk> wrote:
> > G'day folks, I've been trying to read up about the BT move (Now in
> > action) to dump copper wire connections and only have cable, but the
> > info I've read is not very illuminating.
> > I'm wondering if anyone here can illuminate a couple of points for me?
> > 1) If they use FTTC and the BT cabinet is some way down the road as it
> > is here, How do they then connect to my house?
> Exactly the same as now, the only difference will be that your phone
> service if you choose to keep it will be supplied as VoIP (Voice over
> Internet Protocol), and in the majority of cases you should be able to
> retain your existing phone number. So basically it means your phone
> calls go via the internet instead. (longer term is that your phone
> number including what was called your STD code will stay with you even
> if you move to another part of the UK, so its been said)
> If you do not want broadband at all, they will supply a very basic VoIP
> service with a 0.5Mb internet connection via your existing line.
Thanks Chris,
> In message <598bd51...@triffid.co.uk>
> Dave <da...@triffid.co.uk> wrote:
> > G'day folks, I've been trying to read up about the BT move (Now in
> > action) to dump copper wire connections and only have cable, but the
> > info I've read is not very illuminating.
> > I'm wondering if anyone here can illuminate a couple of points for me?
> > 1) If they use FTTC and the BT cabinet is some way down the road as it
> > is here, How do they then connect to my house?
> Exactly the same as now, the only difference will be that your phone
> service if you choose to keep it will be supplied as VoIP (Voice over
> Internet Protocol), and in the majority of cases you should be able to
> retain your existing phone number. So basically it means your phone
> calls go via the internet instead. (longer term is that your phone
> number including what was called your STD code will stay with you even
> if you move to another part of the UK, so its been said)
> If you do not want broadband at all, they will supply a very basic VoIP
> service with a 0.5Mb internet connection via your existing line.
There's a pole in the pavement about 50 metres down the road from which a
copper cable runs to my front Gable, so you are saying with FFTC (The
cabinet is way down the road) the connection will continue through that
Copper cable as it now is?
We already have broadband (Not BT) that comes down the copper cable as
does the phone...
We do not have any Fibre cable stuff at all.
> > 2) If they connect FTTP and bring the cable right to the wall of my
> > house, what happens from their (I guess junction box) to connect
> > inside the house to the Networking Router and phones?
> They fit what is called ONT to your property and your fibre router with
> VoIP facility is connected to that (there will be a digital VoIP socket
> on the router to plug your phone in to).
the master socket, the office is at the back of the house and the copper
cable runs under the floors for 18 metres where its socket is connected to
the phone and Modem Router (TP-Link Archer VR2800).
How will the office modem router connect to the whatever, where the fibre
cable comes into the front of the house and ONT?
Theo
Nov 15, 2021, 5:09:49 PM11/15/21
to
Dave <da...@triffid.co.uk> wrote:
> Thanks Chris,
> There's a pole in the pavement about 50 metres down the road from which a
> copper cable runs to my front Gable, so you are saying with FFTC (The
> cabinet is way down the road) the connection will continue through that
> Copper cable as it now is?
>
> We already have broadband (Not BT) that comes down the copper cable as
> does the phone...
>
> We do not have any Fibre cable stuff at all.
There are two things currently going on:
> Thanks Chris,
> There's a pole in the pavement about 50 metres down the road from which a
> copper cable runs to my front Gable, so you are saying with FFTC (The
> cabinet is way down the road) the connection will continue through that
> Copper cable as it now is?
>
> We already have broadband (Not BT) that comes down the copper cable as
> does the phone...
>
> We do not have any Fibre cable stuff at all.
1) On FTTC, replacing the analogue voice connection with VOIP. This means
instead of plugging a phone into your wall socket, you plug it into your
ISP's router. That means you have to use your ISP's router (unless you move
to a third party VOIP service). You're still using the copper wire for
broadband.
2) Replacing the copper wire with an optical fibre into your house - that's
FTTP.
Both are happening - BT, Sky and others are moving FTTC customers en masse
to VOIP, while FTTP is getting installed in select areas (on a street by
street basis). There are also various third party companies ('altnets')
installing FTTP on their own terms, not via BT/Openreach.
> Mmnnn! The front of the house is where the copper cable comes inside to
> the master socket, the office is at the back of the house and the copper
> cable runs under the floors for 18 metres where its socket is connected to
> the phone and Modem Router (TP-Link Archer VR2800).
>
> How will the office modem router connect to the whatever, where the fibre
> cable comes into the front of the house and ONT?
but the details may be of interest:
https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2021/06/video-virtual-tour-of-fttp-broadband-with-bt-and-openreach.html
(the domestic part is at the end, at about 32 minutes)
In short, they won't necessarily use the existing cable run. There will be
a wire drop off the pole, probably to your gable. It'll run down the house
to the ground, where there's an inspection cover (so they can fix faults
from outside your property). Then a fibre pigtail will run inside to the ONT.
You'll need to find a site for the ONT, typically on an internal wall, which
will require a nearby power socket. You can:
a) mount the ONT somewhere near the fibre ingress, and then run ethernet
onwards to your router.
b) ask Openreach to run the fibre cable on the outside and come in the rear
c) accept a), and then buy your own fibre extension cable and unofficially
extend the fibre internally. Be prepared to put things back to how they
were installed if you have a fault.
You can pay for a 'premium' install for an extra £40 and they will do more
internal wiring etc - IMHO this is well worth doing:
https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2020/08/openreach-launch-new-uk-fttp-premium-connection-service.html
Theo
David Higton
Nov 15, 2021, 6:00:56 PM11/15/21
to
In message <bPf*QA...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>
anticlimactic, as it should be - just unplug the phone cable from the
wall socket and plug it into the back of the router instead. The land
line works as it always did, with the caveat mentioned elsewhere about
loss of phone service if/when mains power is lost.
David
Theo <theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> There are two things currently going on:
>
> 1) On FTTC, replacing the analogue voice connection with VOIP. This means
> instead of plugging a phone into your wall socket, you plug it into your
> ISP's router. That means you have to use your ISP's router (unless you
> move to a third party VOIP service). You're still using the copper wire
> for broadband.
Our service was changed over exactly like this a week or so ago. Very
> There are two things currently going on:
>
> 1) On FTTC, replacing the analogue voice connection with VOIP. This means
> instead of plugging a phone into your wall socket, you plug it into your
> ISP's router. That means you have to use your ISP's router (unless you
> move to a third party VOIP service). You're still using the copper wire
> for broadband.
anticlimactic, as it should be - just unplug the phone cable from the
wall socket and plug it into the back of the router instead. The land
line works as it always did, with the caveat mentioned elsewhere about
loss of phone service if/when mains power is lost.
David
Chris Hughes
Nov 15, 2021, 6:11:27 PM11/15/21
to
In message <598be5c...@triffid.co.uk>
yes you will use the current configuarion, until they get round to do the
full fibre to your premises at some point in the next few years
> We already have broadband (Not BT) that comes down the copper cable as
> does the phone...
Does not matter which ISP you with, they will/are already moving over to
the new system in some parts of the UK already.
> We do not have any Fibre cable stuff at all.
The fibre you have currently will be from the exchange to the cabinet
hence why its called (F)ibre (T)o (T)he (C)abinet
>>> 2) If they connect FTTP and bring the cable right to the wall of my
>>> house, what happens from their (I guess junction box) to connect
>>> inside the house to the Networking Router and phones?
>> They fit what is called ONT to your property and your fibre router with
>> VoIP facility is connected to that (there will be a digital VoIP socket
>> on the router to plug your phone in to).
> Mmnnn! The front of the house is where the copper cable comes inside to
> the master socket, the office is at the back of the house and the copper
> cable runs under the floors for 18 metres where its socket is connected to
> the phone and Modem Router (TP-Link Archer VR2800).
The Master socket will be redundant when you get FTTP and also redundant
when you get VoIP either way. The will install the ONT inside your
property (needs to be close to a power socket) and might well be prepared
to run fibre to your back office.
> How will the office modem router connect to the whatever, where the fibre
> cable comes into the front of the house and ONT?
via a fibre cable normally and ethernet cable
--
Chris Hughes
full fibre to your premises at some point in the next few years
> We already have broadband (Not BT) that comes down the copper cable as
> does the phone...
the new system in some parts of the UK already.
> We do not have any Fibre cable stuff at all.
hence why its called (F)ibre (T)o (T)he (C)abinet
>>> 2) If they connect FTTP and bring the cable right to the wall of my
>>> house, what happens from their (I guess junction box) to connect
>>> inside the house to the Networking Router and phones?
>> They fit what is called ONT to your property and your fibre router with
>> VoIP facility is connected to that (there will be a digital VoIP socket
>> on the router to plug your phone in to).
> Mmnnn! The front of the house is where the copper cable comes inside to
> the master socket, the office is at the back of the house and the copper
> cable runs under the floors for 18 metres where its socket is connected to
> the phone and Modem Router (TP-Link Archer VR2800).
when you get VoIP either way. The will install the ONT inside your
property (needs to be close to a power socket) and might well be prepared
to run fibre to your back office.
> How will the office modem router connect to the whatever, where the fibre
> cable comes into the front of the house and ONT?
--
Chris Hughes
Steve Fryatt
Nov 15, 2021, 7:35:04 PM11/15/21
to
On 15 Nov, Chris Hughes wrote in message
<466cfc8b...@mytarbis.plus.com>:
> In message <598be5c...@triffid.co.uk>
> Dave <da...@triffid.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > We do not have any Fibre cable stuff at all.
>
> The fibre you have currently will be from the exchange to the cabinet
> hence why its called (F)ibre (T)o (T)he (C)abinet
Unless Dave's on ADSL -- which is quite possible -- in which case he won't
currently have fibre anywhere between his house and the exchange. I'd assume
that the upgrade would then be to FTTC unless the street has been fibred.
> > Mmnnn! The front of the house is where the copper cable comes inside to
> > the master socket, the office is at the back of the house and the copper
> > cable runs under the floors for 18 metres where its socket is connected
> > to the phone and Modem Router (TP-Link Archer VR2800).
>
> The Master socket will be redundant when you get FTTP
...but not FTTC...
> and also redundant when you get VoIP either way.
Surely with FTTC, the whatever-the-modem-bit-is-called will still plug into
the master socket?
> The will install the ONT inside your property (needs to be close to a
> power socket) and might well be prepared to run fibre to your back office.
They'll run fibre to wherever they put the ONT, and no further: the ONT
turns fibre into CAT5 (or whatever), which then runs on to where you need
it. How far from the point of ingress they'll put the ONT is a matter for
"negotiation" with the installer, and may depend on what installation
package you've gone for.
That said, remember that the fibre is fragile and doesn't like being formed
into tight curves around corners. Keeping the internal run short and
switching to CAT5 early on is probably advisable. If there's a longish run,
through walls or under floorboards, I'd have thought that CAT5 (ie. after
the ONT) would be easier for that. That's certainly the approach here:
there's about 50cm of fibre to the ONT at the front of the house, then the
CAT5 runs off under the floorboards to the back of the house where the
"office" is.
> > How will the office modem router connect to the whatever, where the
> > fibre cable comes into the front of the house and ONT?
>
> via a fibre cable normally and ethernet cable
The fibre goes into the ONT, which is a box in and of itself. There will
then be CAT5 ("ethernet cable") from the ONT to your ISP's router, which is
a second box.
If you currently have a modem/router for ADSL or FTTC, an FTTP router may
not be the same box as the one that you currently have: the modem has to be
disabled (or absent) so that the router can pass internet-bound data to the
ONT instead.
I've got FTTP here (there's over a mile of often waterlogged copper between
me and the FTTC cabinet, let alone the exchange, so ADSL and FTTC speeds
aren't good), and the router is a specific model that has the required
functionality. It does have an RJ11 socket for copper pair, but that is
turned off in the config and the ONT plugs into port 1 of the four ethernet
ports -- so the LAN only has three network ports on it, instead of four.
--
Steve Fryatt - Leeds, England
http://www.stevefryatt.org.uk/
<466cfc8b...@mytarbis.plus.com>:
> In message <598be5c...@triffid.co.uk>
> Dave <da...@triffid.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > We do not have any Fibre cable stuff at all.
>
> The fibre you have currently will be from the exchange to the cabinet
> hence why its called (F)ibre (T)o (T)he (C)abinet
currently have fibre anywhere between his house and the exchange. I'd assume
that the upgrade would then be to FTTC unless the street has been fibred.
> > Mmnnn! The front of the house is where the copper cable comes inside to
> > the master socket, the office is at the back of the house and the copper
> > cable runs under the floors for 18 metres where its socket is connected
> > to the phone and Modem Router (TP-Link Archer VR2800).
>
> The Master socket will be redundant when you get FTTP
> and also redundant when you get VoIP either way.
the master socket?
> The will install the ONT inside your property (needs to be close to a
> power socket) and might well be prepared to run fibre to your back office.
turns fibre into CAT5 (or whatever), which then runs on to where you need
it. How far from the point of ingress they'll put the ONT is a matter for
"negotiation" with the installer, and may depend on what installation
package you've gone for.
That said, remember that the fibre is fragile and doesn't like being formed
into tight curves around corners. Keeping the internal run short and
switching to CAT5 early on is probably advisable. If there's a longish run,
through walls or under floorboards, I'd have thought that CAT5 (ie. after
the ONT) would be easier for that. That's certainly the approach here:
there's about 50cm of fibre to the ONT at the front of the house, then the
CAT5 runs off under the floorboards to the back of the house where the
"office" is.
> > How will the office modem router connect to the whatever, where the
> > fibre cable comes into the front of the house and ONT?
>
> via a fibre cable normally and ethernet cable
then be CAT5 ("ethernet cable") from the ONT to your ISP's router, which is
a second box.
If you currently have a modem/router for ADSL or FTTC, an FTTP router may
not be the same box as the one that you currently have: the modem has to be
disabled (or absent) so that the router can pass internet-bound data to the
ONT instead.
I've got FTTP here (there's over a mile of often waterlogged copper between
me and the FTTC cabinet, let alone the exchange, so ADSL and FTTC speeds
aren't good), and the router is a specific model that has the required
functionality. It does have an RJ11 socket for copper pair, but that is
turned off in the config and the ONT plugs into port 1 of the four ethernet
ports -- so the LAN only has three network ports on it, instead of four.
--
Steve Fryatt - Leeds, England
http://www.stevefryatt.org.uk/
Dave
Nov 16, 2021, 2:15:58 AM11/16/21
to
Thanks folks for the general notes, and thanks Theo for the links, most
useful.
Dave
--
Dave Triffid
useful.
Dave
--
Dave Triffid
Chris Hughes
Nov 16, 2021, 4:39:18 AM11/16/21
to
In message <mpro.r2n2rn02...@stevefryatt.org.uk>
>>> Mmnnn! The front of the house is where the copper cable comes inside to
>>> the master socket, the office is at the back of the house and the copper
>>> cable runs under the floors for 18 metres where its socket is connected
>>> to the phone and Modem Router (TP-Link Archer VR2800).
>>
>> The Master socket will be redundant when you get FTTP
> ...but not FTTC...
I was answering the point re FTTP, but yes its still needed for FTTC.
>> and also redundant when you get VoIP either way.
> Surely with FTTC, the whatever-the-modem-bit-is-called will still plug into
> the master socket?
Not once the analogue phone service (PSTN) is switched off, it will then
be via your router for example the Smart Hub 2 has a VoIP socket for
digital voice (VoIP), until that time then the master socket is still used
for the old Phone (PSTN) service.
[snip]
--
Chris Hughes
Steve Fryatt <ne...@stevefryatt.org.uk> wrote:
> On 15 Nov, Chris Hughes wrote in message
> <466cfc8b...@mytarbis.plus.com>:
>> In message <598be5c...@triffid.co.uk>
>> Dave <da...@triffid.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> We do not have any Fibre cable stuff at all.
>>
>> The fibre you have currently will be from the exchange to the cabinet
>> hence why its called (F)ibre (T)o (T)he (C)abinet
> Unless Dave's on ADSL -- which is quite possible -- in which case he won't
> currently have fibre anywhere between his house and the exchange. I'd assume
> that the upgrade would then be to FTTC unless the street has been fibred.
Agreed that is my understanding as well.
> On 15 Nov, Chris Hughes wrote in message
> <466cfc8b...@mytarbis.plus.com>:
>> In message <598be5c...@triffid.co.uk>
>> Dave <da...@triffid.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> We do not have any Fibre cable stuff at all.
>>
>> The fibre you have currently will be from the exchange to the cabinet
>> hence why its called (F)ibre (T)o (T)he (C)abinet
> Unless Dave's on ADSL -- which is quite possible -- in which case he won't
> currently have fibre anywhere between his house and the exchange. I'd assume
> that the upgrade would then be to FTTC unless the street has been fibred.
>>> Mmnnn! The front of the house is where the copper cable comes inside to
>>> the master socket, the office is at the back of the house and the copper
>>> cable runs under the floors for 18 metres where its socket is connected
>>> to the phone and Modem Router (TP-Link Archer VR2800).
>>
>> The Master socket will be redundant when you get FTTP
> ...but not FTTC...
>> and also redundant when you get VoIP either way.
> Surely with FTTC, the whatever-the-modem-bit-is-called will still plug into
> the master socket?
be via your router for example the Smart Hub 2 has a VoIP socket for
digital voice (VoIP), until that time then the master socket is still used
for the old Phone (PSTN) service.
[snip]
--
Chris Hughes
Dave
Nov 16, 2021, 9:37:38 AM11/16/21
to
In article <59c6358c...@mytarbis.plus.com>,
I give up, I'm now more confused than I was before asking the two original
questions. :-(
Dave
--
Dave Triffid
questions. :-(
Dave
--
Dave Triffid
Chris Hughes
Nov 16, 2021, 11:23:23 AM11/16/21
to
In message <598c513...@triffid.co.uk>
What is your current broadband service ADSL, FTTC (VDSL) or are you lucky
enough to have full fibre.
End of day nothing to worry about at the moment, unless you are changing
ISP in the next year and even then they will help explain your options
A couple of useful URL‘s:
https://www.draytek.co.uk/support/guides/kb-openreach-sogea
https://www.zen.co.uk/blog/posts/zen-blog/2020/03/30/sogea-our-industry‘s-next-great-shake-up
explains some of it mainly regarding impact on FTTC
--
Chris Hughes
enough to have full fibre.
End of day nothing to worry about at the moment, unless you are changing
ISP in the next year and even then they will help explain your options
A couple of useful URL‘s:
https://www.draytek.co.uk/support/guides/kb-openreach-sogea
https://www.zen.co.uk/blog/posts/zen-blog/2020/03/30/sogea-our-industry‘s-next-great-shake-up
explains some of it mainly regarding impact on FTTC
--
Chris Hughes
Steve Fryatt
Nov 16, 2021, 1:35:04 PM11/16/21
to
On 16 Nov, Dave wrote in message
<598c513...@triffid.co.uk>:
It doesn't help that Chris's response above appears to have assumed than
when I wrote "whatever-the-modem-bit-is-called", I actually meant to write
"phone" -- when I definitely meant "whatever-the-modem-bit-is-called".
In summary, unless you go for FTTP, then after the removal of the POTS
service you will be on ADSL or FTTC, you will still have a modem/router just
as you do now, and that will still plug into a master socket, just as it
does now.
The difference will be that your home phone will plug into that modem/router
if the latter supports that, or into another box that you will connect to
your local network. Or, if you use cordless DECT phones, you could get a
modem/router that contains a DECT base station.
If you go for FTTP, then the fibre comes into your home and terminates in an
Optical Network Terminator (ONT). In my setup here, there's no pluggable
connection and the fibre is one solid length from the top of the telephone
pole, through the house wall and in to the ONT; Theo suggests that Openreach
might be improving on this, though (my installation is from 2018).
Old FTTP installations might have a copper pair alongside for the POTS
service (mine does) terminating in a standard master socket, but presumably
this will be withdrawn. Otherwise, the phone will plug into your ONT, your
router, or a box on your network -- just as for ADSL/FTTC. Or it will use
DECT, again as for ADSL/FTTC.
Hopefully that's clearer.
<598c513...@triffid.co.uk>:
when I wrote "whatever-the-modem-bit-is-called", I actually meant to write
"phone" -- when I definitely meant "whatever-the-modem-bit-is-called".
In summary, unless you go for FTTP, then after the removal of the POTS
service you will be on ADSL or FTTC, you will still have a modem/router just
as you do now, and that will still plug into a master socket, just as it
does now.
The difference will be that your home phone will plug into that modem/router
if the latter supports that, or into another box that you will connect to
your local network. Or, if you use cordless DECT phones, you could get a
modem/router that contains a DECT base station.
If you go for FTTP, then the fibre comes into your home and terminates in an
Optical Network Terminator (ONT). In my setup here, there's no pluggable
connection and the fibre is one solid length from the top of the telephone
pole, through the house wall and in to the ONT; Theo suggests that Openreach
might be improving on this, though (my installation is from 2018).
Old FTTP installations might have a copper pair alongside for the POTS
service (mine does) terminating in a standard master socket, but presumably
this will be withdrawn. Otherwise, the phone will plug into your ONT, your
router, or a box on your network -- just as for ADSL/FTTC. Or it will use
DECT, again as for ADSL/FTTC.
Hopefully that's clearer.
Tim Hill
Nov 16, 2021, 1:43:36 PM11/16/21
to
In article <598be5c...@triffid.co.uk>, Dave <da...@triffid.co.uk>
wrote:
connected to a homeplug; the gigabit switch in my study is connected to
another.
wrote:
> How will the office modem router connect to the whatever, where the
> fibre cable comes into the front of the house and ONT?
My internet router ended up in the kitchen where my cable enters and it's
> fibre cable comes into the front of the house and ONT?
connected to a homeplug; the gigabit switch in my study is connected to
another.
Dave
Nov 16, 2021, 4:10:20 PM11/16/21
to
In article <00bb5a8c...@mytarbis.plus.com>,
Chris Hughes <new...@noonehere.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <598c513...@triffid.co.uk>
> Dave <da...@triffid.co.uk> wrote:
[Snip]
> > I give up, I'm now more confused than I was before asking the two
> > original questions. :-(
> What is your current broadband service ADSL, FTTC (VDSL) or are you
> lucky enough to have full fibre.
AFAICR. It's ADSL, and as mentioned in a previous posting, we have No
fibre cabling to or in this house.
> End of day nothing to worry about at the moment, unless you are changing
> ISP in the next year and even then they will help explain your options
Orpheus is our ISP and unless something happens at Richard's end, we'll be
with them long term.
> A couple of useful URL#s:
> https://www.draytek.co.uk/support/guides/kb-openreach-sogea
> https://www.zen.co.uk/blog/posts/zen-blog/2020/03/30/sogea-our-industry#s-next-great-shake-up
> explains some of it mainly regarding impact on FTTC
Thanks for the URLs.
I was out looking at things today, the FTTC is 100 or so yards along the
road, from where earlier this year the BT vomit men (Open Reach) ran a
fibre cable in the under pavement conduit to the manhole beside the 50
yard pole I previously mentioned, the cable then goes up the pole.
At the top of the pole the fibre cable goes into a new largish rectangular
black box.
Dave
--
Dave Triffid
Chris Hughes <new...@noonehere.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <598c513...@triffid.co.uk>
> Dave <da...@triffid.co.uk> wrote:
[Snip]
> > I give up, I'm now more confused than I was before asking the two
> > original questions. :-(
> What is your current broadband service ADSL, FTTC (VDSL) or are you
> lucky enough to have full fibre.
fibre cabling to or in this house.
> End of day nothing to worry about at the moment, unless you are changing
> ISP in the next year and even then they will help explain your options
with them long term.
> A couple of useful URL#s:
> https://www.draytek.co.uk/support/guides/kb-openreach-sogea
> https://www.zen.co.uk/blog/posts/zen-blog/2020/03/30/sogea-our-industry#s-next-great-shake-up
> explains some of it mainly regarding impact on FTTC
I was out looking at things today, the FTTC is 100 or so yards along the
road, from where earlier this year the BT vomit men (Open Reach) ran a
fibre cable in the under pavement conduit to the manhole beside the 50
yard pole I previously mentioned, the cable then goes up the pole.
At the top of the pole the fibre cable goes into a new largish rectangular
black box.
Dave
--
Dave Triffid
Dave
Nov 16, 2021, 4:10:20 PM11/16/21
to
In article <mpro.r2ogcz00...@stevefryatt.org.uk>,
Steve Fryatt <ne...@stevefryatt.org.uk> wrote:
[Snippy]
> In summary, unless you go for FTTP, then after the removal of the POTS
> service you will be on ADSL or FTTC, you will still have a modem/router
> just as you do now, and that will still plug into a master socket, just
> as it does now.
> The difference will be that your home phone will plug into that
> modem/router if the latter supports that, or into another box that you
> will connect to your local network. Or, if you use cordless DECT phones,
> you could get a modem/router that contains a DECT base station.
> If you go for FTTP, then the fibre comes into your home and terminates
> in an Optical Network Terminator (ONT). In my setup here, there's no
> pluggable connection and the fibre is one solid length from the top of
> the telephone pole, through the house wall and in to the ONT; Theo
> suggests that Openreach might be improving on this, though (my
> installation is from 2018).
> Old FTTP installations might have a copper pair alongside for the POTS
> service (mine does) terminating in a standard master socket, but
> presumably this will be withdrawn. Otherwise, the phone will plug into
> your ONT, your router, or a box on your network -- just as for
> ADSL/FTTC. Or it will use DECT, again as for ADSL/FTTC.
> Hopefully that's clearer.
Thanks
Steve
Appreciated.
Dave
--
Dave Triffid
Steve Fryatt <ne...@stevefryatt.org.uk> wrote:
[Snippy]
> In summary, unless you go for FTTP, then after the removal of the POTS
> service you will be on ADSL or FTTC, you will still have a modem/router
> just as you do now, and that will still plug into a master socket, just
> as it does now.
> The difference will be that your home phone will plug into that
> modem/router if the latter supports that, or into another box that you
> will connect to your local network. Or, if you use cordless DECT phones,
> you could get a modem/router that contains a DECT base station.
> If you go for FTTP, then the fibre comes into your home and terminates
> in an Optical Network Terminator (ONT). In my setup here, there's no
> pluggable connection and the fibre is one solid length from the top of
> the telephone pole, through the house wall and in to the ONT; Theo
> suggests that Openreach might be improving on this, though (my
> installation is from 2018).
> Old FTTP installations might have a copper pair alongside for the POTS
> service (mine does) terminating in a standard master socket, but
> presumably this will be withdrawn. Otherwise, the phone will plug into
> your ONT, your router, or a box on your network -- just as for
> ADSL/FTTC. Or it will use DECT, again as for ADSL/FTTC.
> Hopefully that's clearer.
> Steve Fryatt - Leeds, England
Yes that makes it much clearer.
Thanks
Steve
Appreciated.
Dave
--
Dave Triffid
Doug Webb
Nov 16, 2021, 5:02:38 PM11/16/21
to
In message <598c6b3...@triffid.co.uk>
cabinet to the distribution points along the network, so when it is live
then I guess a talk with Orpheus is called for as well.
--
Experience the future using ARM Technology - ARMBook,BeagleBoard -xM,
PandaBoard,Raspberry Pi,iMX6/ARMX6,IGEPv5 & Titanium powered by RISC OS
5.28.
Dave <da...@triffid.co.uk> wrote:
> I was out looking at things today, the FTTC is 100 or so yards along the
> road, from where earlier this year the BT vomit men (Open Reach) ran a
> fibre cable in the under pavement conduit to the manhole beside the 50
> yard pole I previously mentioned, the cable then goes up the pole.
> At the top of the pole the fibre cable goes into a new largish rectangular
> black box.
Sounds like they are full fibring up your area, as they run fibre from the
> I was out looking at things today, the FTTC is 100 or so yards along the
> road, from where earlier this year the BT vomit men (Open Reach) ran a
> fibre cable in the under pavement conduit to the manhole beside the 50
> yard pole I previously mentioned, the cable then goes up the pole.
> At the top of the pole the fibre cable goes into a new largish rectangular
> black box.
cabinet to the distribution points along the network, so when it is live
then I guess a talk with Orpheus is called for as well.
--
Experience the future using ARM Technology - ARMBook,BeagleBoard -xM,
PandaBoard,Raspberry Pi,iMX6/ARMX6,IGEPv5 & Titanium powered by RISC OS
5.28.
Doug Webb
Nov 16, 2021, 5:02:38 PM11/16/21
to
> Orpheus is our ISP and unless something happens at Richard's end, we'll be
> with them long term.
As I understand it from talking to Richard at the London show Orpheus will
> with them long term.
be launching a Voip phone service so can have everything under one roof
:-)
Martin
Nov 16, 2021, 5:20:25 PM11/16/21
to
In article <598c6b3...@triffid.co.uk>,
> > What is your current broadband service ADSL, FTTC (VDSL) or are
> > you lucky enough to have full fibre.
> AFAICR. It's ADSL, and as mentioned in a previous posting, we have
> No fibre cabling to or in this house.
FTTC does not require fible cabling anywhare near the house. It is
only fibre up to the Cabinet, and the copper pair from there to the
house. If your download speed if less than about 20Mbit/sec then it is
likely to be ADSL, if faster then likely to be VDSL (ie FTTC)
[Snip]
> I was out looking at things today, the FTTC is 100 or so yards
> along the road, from where earlier this year the BT vomit men (Open
> Reach) ran a fibre cable in the under pavement conduit to the
> manhole beside the 50 yard pole I previously mentioned, the cable
> then goes up the pole.
> At the top of the pole the fibre cable goes into a new largish
> rectangular black box.
That sounds like preparations for FTTP.
Martin
--
Martin Avison
Note that unfortunately this email address will become invalid
without notice if (when) any spam is received.
Dave <da...@triffid.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <00bb5a8c...@mytarbis.plus.com>,
> Chris Hughes <new...@noonehere.co.uk> wrote:
[Snip]
> In article <00bb5a8c...@mytarbis.plus.com>,
> Chris Hughes <new...@noonehere.co.uk> wrote:
> > What is your current broadband service ADSL, FTTC (VDSL) or are
> > you lucky enough to have full fibre.
> AFAICR. It's ADSL, and as mentioned in a previous posting, we have
> No fibre cabling to or in this house.
only fibre up to the Cabinet, and the copper pair from there to the
house. If your download speed if less than about 20Mbit/sec then it is
likely to be ADSL, if faster then likely to be VDSL (ie FTTC)
[Snip]
> I was out looking at things today, the FTTC is 100 or so yards
> along the road, from where earlier this year the BT vomit men (Open
> Reach) ran a fibre cable in the under pavement conduit to the
> manhole beside the 50 yard pole I previously mentioned, the cable
> then goes up the pole.
> At the top of the pole the fibre cable goes into a new largish
> rectangular black box.
Martin
--
Martin Avison
Note that unfortunately this email address will become invalid
without notice if (when) any spam is received.
Doug Webb
Nov 16, 2021, 5:35:34 PM11/16/21
to
In message <mpro.r2ogcz00...@stevefryatt.org.uk>
Steve Fryatt <ne...@stevefryatt.org.uk> wrote:
[snip]
> Hopefully that's clearer.
That about covers it very well.
> Old FTTP installations might have a copper pair alongside for the POTS
> service (mine does) terminating in a standard master socket, but presumably
> this will be withdrawn
Yep, but it seems they still add in further confusion in some areas
depending on if it is a greenfield or brownfield deployed FTTP...
https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2020/09/clearing-up-confusion-over-the-bt-fttp-digital-voice-transition.html
Hopefully things have moved on since that article as they move to a full
stop sell of the old PSTN service by September 2023 ahead of full
withdrawal by December 2025.
In essence they will move you when your contract comes up for renewal or
you say move house post the September 2023 date so accelerating the move
across.
They will also stop sell before that date in Full Fibre areas once the 75%
penetration threshold is hit.
Steve Fryatt <ne...@stevefryatt.org.uk> wrote:
[snip]
> Hopefully that's clearer.
That about covers it very well.
> Old FTTP installations might have a copper pair alongside for the POTS
> service (mine does) terminating in a standard master socket, but presumably
> this will be withdrawn
depending on if it is a greenfield or brownfield deployed FTTP...
https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2020/09/clearing-up-confusion-over-the-bt-fttp-digital-voice-transition.html
Hopefully things have moved on since that article as they move to a full
stop sell of the old PSTN service by September 2023 ahead of full
withdrawal by December 2025.
In essence they will move you when your contract comes up for renewal or
you say move house post the September 2023 date so accelerating the move
across.
They will also stop sell before that date in Full Fibre areas once the 75%
penetration threshold is hit.
Dave Plowman (News)
Nov 16, 2021, 7:44:25 PM11/16/21
to
> If you go for FTTP, then the fibre comes into your home and terminates in an
> Optical Network Terminator (ONT). In my setup here, there's no pluggable
> connection and the fibre is one solid length from the top of the telephone
> pole, through the house wall and in to the ONT; Theo suggests that Openreach
> might be improving on this, though (my installation is from 2018).
Next door went full fibre recently. She says they simply plugged their
> Optical Network Terminator (ONT). In my setup here, there's no pluggable
> connection and the fibre is one solid length from the top of the telephone
> pole, through the house wall and in to the ONT; Theo suggests that Openreach
> might be improving on this, though (my installation is from 2018).
existing house phone wiring into the new router, so all their cordless
base stations (4, I think) worked as before. The problem would likely be
with older phones that needed 48v DC and ringing volts.
--
*I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing *
Dave Plowman da...@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
David Higton
Nov 18, 2021, 9:14:02 AM11/18/21
to
In message <598c889...@davenoise.co.uk>
phone lines, require the 48V DC and the ringing voltage. The DC is
required to signal on/off hook; the ringing voltage is to, well, cause
the "ringer" to "ring". So there's no difference, and no problem.
David
"Dave Plowman (News)" <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
> Next door went full fibre recently. She says they simply plugged their
> existing house phone wiring into the new router, so all their cordless
> base stations (4, I think) worked as before. The problem would likely be
> with older phones that needed 48v DC and ringing volts.
All analogue phones, and all DECT base stations that connect to analogue
> Next door went full fibre recently. She says they simply plugged their
> existing house phone wiring into the new router, so all their cordless
> base stations (4, I think) worked as before. The problem would likely be
> with older phones that needed 48v DC and ringing volts.
phone lines, require the 48V DC and the ringing voltage. The DC is
required to signal on/off hook; the ringing voltage is to, well, cause
the "ringer" to "ring". So there's no difference, and no problem.
David
Russell Hafter News
Nov 19, 2021, 6:08:40 PM11/19/21
to
In article <6ca4568d59.DaveMeUK@BeagleBoard-xM>, David
I have been trying to get my head around this too.
I understand that in future I can plug a phone into an
adaptor that plugs into the router (it does not have its own
adaptor built in).
How, though, do I connect the rest of the phone sockets in
the house to the system? I much prefer the sound quality of
a wired handset over a DECT one.
Another point that just seems to be completely ignored:- the
battery backup for router, adaptor, etc is, I believe,
considered to be OK if the power is off for just one hour.
Here we routinely have planned power cuts with the mains
power off for a full working day - 6 hours. Mobiles are
unusable for voice calls inside the house.
I have my own UPSs - but they usually do not last for
anything like 6 hours.
--
Russell
Russell Hafter
E-mail to russell at russellhafter dot me dot uk
Need a hotel? <http://www.hrs.com/?client=en__blue&customerId=416873103>
Friendly web hosting <https://www.xencentrichosting.uk/billing/aff.php?aff=7>
I understand that in future I can plug a phone into an
adaptor that plugs into the router (it does not have its own
adaptor built in).
How, though, do I connect the rest of the phone sockets in
the house to the system? I much prefer the sound quality of
a wired handset over a DECT one.
Another point that just seems to be completely ignored:- the
battery backup for router, adaptor, etc is, I believe,
considered to be OK if the power is off for just one hour.
Here we routinely have planned power cuts with the mains
power off for a full working day - 6 hours. Mobiles are
unusable for voice calls inside the house.
I have my own UPSs - but they usually do not last for
anything like 6 hours.
--
Russell
Russell Hafter
E-mail to russell at russellhafter dot me dot uk
Need a hotel? <http://www.hrs.com/?client=en__blue&customerId=416873103>
Friendly web hosting <https://www.xencentrichosting.uk/billing/aff.php?aff=7>
David Higton
Nov 19, 2021, 6:47:59 PM11/19/21
to
In message <598e0bbc...@russellhafter.me.invalid>
> How, though, do I connect the rest of the phone sockets in the house to the
> system?
That's a purely mechanical problem.
> I much prefer the sound quality of a wired handset over a DECT one.
I'd be interested to know if the up-market DECT handset that BT offer
can actually provide sound quality better than an analogue phone. It's
entirely possible, since BT tell you to pair it with the router (which
has a DECT base station in it), and it is in theory possible to get an
end to end connection via (for example) G.729a. DECT has a bandwidth
of 32 kb/s, so, *IF* it's not tied to the old ADPCM codec traditionally
used by DECT, that's enough for high quality audio.
Like I say, it's theoretical. I'd like to know if it can be done in
practice.
David
Russell Hafter News <see...@russellhafter.me.invalid> wrote:
> In article <6ca4568d59.DaveMeUK@BeagleBoard-xM>, David Higton
> <da...@davehigton.me.uk> wrote:
> > In message <598c889...@davenoise.co.uk> "Dave Plowman (News)"
> > <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > > Next door went full fibre recently. She says they simply plugged their
> > > existing house phone wiring into the new router, so all their cordless
> > > base stations (4, I think) worked as before. The problem would likely
> > > be with older phones that needed 48v DC and ringing volts.
>
> > All analogue phones, and all DECT base stations that connect to analogue
> > phone lines, require the 48V DC and the ringing voltage. The DC is
> > required to signal on/off hook; the ringing voltage is to, well, cause
> > the "ringer" to "ring". So there's no difference, and no problem.
>
> I have been trying to get my head around this too.
>
> I understand that in future I can plug a phone into an adaptor that plugs
> into the router (it does not have its own adaptor built in).
I'd like to read some information about such an adaptor.
> In article <6ca4568d59.DaveMeUK@BeagleBoard-xM>, David Higton
> <da...@davehigton.me.uk> wrote:
> > In message <598c889...@davenoise.co.uk> "Dave Plowman (News)"
> > <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > > Next door went full fibre recently. She says they simply plugged their
> > > existing house phone wiring into the new router, so all their cordless
> > > base stations (4, I think) worked as before. The problem would likely
> > > be with older phones that needed 48v DC and ringing volts.
>
> > All analogue phones, and all DECT base stations that connect to analogue
> > phone lines, require the 48V DC and the ringing voltage. The DC is
> > required to signal on/off hook; the ringing voltage is to, well, cause
> > the "ringer" to "ring". So there's no difference, and no problem.
>
> I have been trying to get my head around this too.
>
> I understand that in future I can plug a phone into an adaptor that plugs
> into the router (it does not have its own adaptor built in).
> How, though, do I connect the rest of the phone sockets in the house to the
> system?
> I much prefer the sound quality of a wired handset over a DECT one.
can actually provide sound quality better than an analogue phone. It's
entirely possible, since BT tell you to pair it with the router (which
has a DECT base station in it), and it is in theory possible to get an
end to end connection via (for example) G.729a. DECT has a bandwidth
of 32 kb/s, so, *IF* it's not tied to the old ADPCM codec traditionally
used by DECT, that's enough for high quality audio.
Like I say, it's theoretical. I'd like to know if it can be done in
practice.
David
Theo
Nov 20, 2021, 5:34:59 AM11/20/21
to
David Higton <da...@davehigton.me.uk> wrote:
> In message <598e0bbc...@russellhafter.me.invalid>
> Russell Hafter News <see...@russellhafter.me.invalid> wrote:
> > I have been trying to get my head around this too.
> >
> > I understand that in future I can plug a phone into an adaptor that plugs
> > into the router (it does not have its own adaptor built in).
>
> I'd like to read some information about such an adaptor.
I assume Russell is referring to an Analogue Telephone Adapter (ATA), which
> In message <598e0bbc...@russellhafter.me.invalid>
> Russell Hafter News <see...@russellhafter.me.invalid> wrote:
> > I have been trying to get my head around this too.
> >
> > I understand that in future I can plug a phone into an adaptor that plugs
> > into the router (it does not have its own adaptor built in).
>
> I'd like to read some information about such an adaptor.
is how to convert regular analogue phones to VOIP.
That's easy to do for a third-party phone company, who offer their service
via VOIP. It's unclear how to do so for your broadband provider, since
typically those operate through a socket on your router and they won't let
you have the login details to use your own ATA.
It may be that some ISPs (Orpheus perhaps?) are more enlightened and let you
use your own, I don't know.
There are good reasons to port your number to a third party provider and
have it as a separate service to your broadband - you aren't stuck with
substandard phone deals from your broadband provider.
> > How, though, do I connect the rest of the phone sockets in the house to the
> > system?
>
> That's a purely mechanical problem.
master socket to do it:
https://community.bt.com/t5/Home-phone-including-Digital/NTE5c-Faceplate-for-Digital-Voice/td-p/2171638
https://support.aa.net.uk/VoIP_How_to:_Voice_reinjection
You plug a phone cable from your router or ATA into the green socket, and
that pipes analogue phone signals to your extensions.
On the question about battery backup, you can get small 12v lithium ion UPSes
designed for powering routers rather than to allow safe shutdown of PCs.
Random example:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/TalentCell-Rechargeable-3000mAh-Lithium-External/dp/B072HR211P
(*not* a recommendation)
Because there's no inverter, they can run as long as they have battery power
for, rather than a heavy standby load just to run the inverter which makes
a traditional UPS unsuitable for this role.
(these are essentially a few 18650 lithium ion cells in a box with a small
management circuit, so can be made fairly cheaply. I'd expect them to
become much more common as demand ramps up)
Theo
Dave Plowman (News)
Nov 20, 2021, 6:39:31 AM11/20/21
to
In article <598e0bbc...@russellhafter.me.invalid>,
phone outlet.
What I'm not clear about is whether an existing old style phone -
completely powered off the phone line - will still work and ring. DECT
should be OK.
> Another point that just seems to be completely ignored:- the
> battery backup for router, adaptor, etc is, I believe,
> considered to be OK if the power is off for just one hour.
> Here we routinely have planned power cuts with the mains
> power off for a full working day - 6 hours. Mobiles are
> unusable for voice calls inside the house.
> I have my own UPSs - but they usually do not last for
> anything like 6 hours.
--
*The statement below is true.
Russell Hafter News <see...@russellhafter.me.invalid> wrote:
> In article <6ca4568d59.DaveMeUK@BeagleBoard-xM>, David
> Higton <da...@davehigton.me.uk> wrote:
> > In message <598c889...@davenoise.co.uk> "Dave Plowman
> > (News)" <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
> > > Next door went full fibre recently. She says they
> > > simply plugged their existing house phone wiring into
> > > the new router, so all their cordless base stations (4,
> > > I think) worked as before. The problem would likely be
> > > with older phones that needed 48v DC and ringing volts.
> > All analogue phones, and all DECT base stations that
> > connect to analogue phone lines, require the 48V DC and
> > the ringing voltage. The DC is required to signal on/off
> > hook; the ringing voltage is to, well, cause the "ringer"
> > to "ring". So there's no difference, and no problem.
> I have been trying to get my head around this too.
> I understand that in future I can plug a phone into an
> adaptor that plugs into the router (it does not have its own
> adaptor built in).
> How, though, do I connect the rest of the phone sockets in
> the house to the system? I much prefer the sound quality of
> a wired handset over a DECT one.
As I understand it, you can plug the existing phone wiring into the router
> Higton <da...@davehigton.me.uk> wrote:
> > In message <598c889...@davenoise.co.uk> "Dave Plowman
> > (News)" <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
> > > Next door went full fibre recently. She says they
> > > simply plugged their existing house phone wiring into
> > > the new router, so all their cordless base stations (4,
> > > I think) worked as before. The problem would likely be
> > > with older phones that needed 48v DC and ringing volts.
> > All analogue phones, and all DECT base stations that
> > connect to analogue phone lines, require the 48V DC and
> > the ringing voltage. The DC is required to signal on/off
> > hook; the ringing voltage is to, well, cause the "ringer"
> > to "ring". So there's no difference, and no problem.
> I have been trying to get my head around this too.
> I understand that in future I can plug a phone into an
> adaptor that plugs into the router (it does not have its own
> adaptor built in).
> How, though, do I connect the rest of the phone sockets in
> the house to the system? I much prefer the sound quality of
> a wired handset over a DECT one.
phone outlet.
What I'm not clear about is whether an existing old style phone -
completely powered off the phone line - will still work and ring. DECT
should be OK.
> Another point that just seems to be completely ignored:- the
> battery backup for router, adaptor, etc is, I believe,
> considered to be OK if the power is off for just one hour.
> Here we routinely have planned power cuts with the mains
> power off for a full working day - 6 hours. Mobiles are
> unusable for voice calls inside the house.
> I have my own UPSs - but they usually do not last for
> anything like 6 hours.
--
Chris Hughes
Nov 20, 2021, 7:05:06 AM11/20/21
to
In message <c0260f8e59.DaveMeUK@BeagleBoard-xM>
>> How, though, do I connect the rest of the phone sockets in the house to the
>> system?
> That's a purely mechanical problem.
Theo has explained how this can be done in his posting.
>> I much prefer the sound quality of a wired handset over a DECT one.
> I'd be interested to know if the up-market DECT handset that BT offer
> can actually provide sound quality better than an analogue phone. It's
> entirely possible, since BT tell you to pair it with the router (which
> has a DECT base station in it), and it is in theory possible to get an
> end to end connection via (for example) G.729a. DECT has a bandwidth
> of 32 kb/s, so, *IF* it's not tied to the old ADPCM codec traditionally
> used by DECT, that's enough for high quality audio.
The link below give various information on BT's Digital Voice and the
phones they supply, apparently the Digital Voice phones are HD quality
https://kenstechtips.com/index.php/bt-digital-voice
--
Chris Hughes
David Higton <da...@davehigton.me.uk> wrote:
> In message <598e0bbc...@russellhafter.me.invalid>
> Russell Hafter News <see...@russellhafter.me.invalid> wrote:
>> In article <6ca4568d59.DaveMeUK@BeagleBoard-xM>, David Higton
>> <da...@davehigton.me.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <598c889...@davenoise.co.uk> "Dave Plowman (News)"
>>> <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>> Next door went full fibre recently. She says they simply plugged their
>>>> existing house phone wiring into the new router, so all their cordless
>>>> base stations (4, I think) worked as before. The problem would likely
>>>> be with older phones that needed 48v DC and ringing volts.
>>
>>> All analogue phones, and all DECT base stations that connect to analogue
>>> phone lines, require the 48V DC and the ringing voltage. The DC is
>>> required to signal on/off hook; the ringing voltage is to, well, cause
>>> the "ringer" to "ring". So there's no difference, and no problem.
>>
>> I have been trying to get my head around this too.
>>
>> I understand that in future I can plug a phone into an adaptor that plugs
>> into the router (it does not have its own adaptor built in).
> I'd like to read some information about such an adaptor.
Theo in another post has given some info on this.
> In message <598e0bbc...@russellhafter.me.invalid>
> Russell Hafter News <see...@russellhafter.me.invalid> wrote:
>> In article <6ca4568d59.DaveMeUK@BeagleBoard-xM>, David Higton
>> <da...@davehigton.me.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <598c889...@davenoise.co.uk> "Dave Plowman (News)"
>>> <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>> Next door went full fibre recently. She says they simply plugged their
>>>> existing house phone wiring into the new router, so all their cordless
>>>> base stations (4, I think) worked as before. The problem would likely
>>>> be with older phones that needed 48v DC and ringing volts.
>>
>>> All analogue phones, and all DECT base stations that connect to analogue
>>> phone lines, require the 48V DC and the ringing voltage. The DC is
>>> required to signal on/off hook; the ringing voltage is to, well, cause
>>> the "ringer" to "ring". So there's no difference, and no problem.
>>
>> I have been trying to get my head around this too.
>>
>> I understand that in future I can plug a phone into an adaptor that plugs
>> into the router (it does not have its own adaptor built in).
> I'd like to read some information about such an adaptor.
>> How, though, do I connect the rest of the phone sockets in the house to the
>> system?
> That's a purely mechanical problem.
>> I much prefer the sound quality of a wired handset over a DECT one.
> I'd be interested to know if the up-market DECT handset that BT offer
> can actually provide sound quality better than an analogue phone. It's
> entirely possible, since BT tell you to pair it with the router (which
> has a DECT base station in it), and it is in theory possible to get an
> end to end connection via (for example) G.729a. DECT has a bandwidth
> of 32 kb/s, so, *IF* it's not tied to the old ADPCM codec traditionally
> used by DECT, that's enough for high quality audio.
phones they supply, apparently the Digital Voice phones are HD quality
https://kenstechtips.com/index.php/bt-digital-voice
--
Chris Hughes
Chris Hughes
Nov 20, 2021, 7:05:06 AM11/20/21
to
In message <aPf*up...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>
and will not generally supply the necessary information to use your own
kit.
> It may be that some ISPs (Orpheus perhaps?) are more enlightened and let you
> use your own, I don't know.
> There are good reasons to port your number to a third party provider and
> have it as a separate service to your broadband - you aren't stuck with
> substandard phone deals from your broadband provider.
Organisations like SIPGate provide alternative VoIP system and give you
the needed info to use your own kit. You usually transfer your existing
line number to them as well.
[snip]
--
Chris Hughes
Theo <theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> David Higton <da...@davehigton.me.uk> wrote:
>> In message <598e0bbc...@russellhafter.me.invalid>
>> Russell Hafter News <see...@russellhafter.me.invalid> wrote:
>>> I have been trying to get my head around this too.
>>>
>>> I understand that in future I can plug a phone into an adaptor that plugs
>>> into the router (it does not have its own adaptor built in).
>>
>> I'd like to read some information about such an adaptor.
> I assume Russell is referring to an Analogue Telephone Adapter (ATA), which
> is how to convert regular analogue phones to VOIP.
> That's easy to do for a third-party phone company, who offer their service
> via VOIP. It's unclear how to do so for your broadband provider, since
> typically those operate through a socket on your router and they won't let
> you have the login details to use your own ATA.
BT seem to be only ones at the moment insisting in you using their system,
> David Higton <da...@davehigton.me.uk> wrote:
>> In message <598e0bbc...@russellhafter.me.invalid>
>> Russell Hafter News <see...@russellhafter.me.invalid> wrote:
>>> I have been trying to get my head around this too.
>>>
>>> I understand that in future I can plug a phone into an adaptor that plugs
>>> into the router (it does not have its own adaptor built in).
>>
>> I'd like to read some information about such an adaptor.
> I assume Russell is referring to an Analogue Telephone Adapter (ATA), which
> is how to convert regular analogue phones to VOIP.
> That's easy to do for a third-party phone company, who offer their service
> via VOIP. It's unclear how to do so for your broadband provider, since
> typically those operate through a socket on your router and they won't let
> you have the login details to use your own ATA.
and will not generally supply the necessary information to use your own
kit.
> It may be that some ISPs (Orpheus perhaps?) are more enlightened and let you
> use your own, I don't know.
> There are good reasons to port your number to a third party provider and
> have it as a separate service to your broadband - you aren't stuck with
> substandard phone deals from your broadband provider.
the needed info to use your own kit. You usually transfer your existing
line number to them as well.
[snip]
--
Chris Hughes
Chris Newman
Nov 20, 2021, 12:02:32 PM11/20/21
to
In article <598bd51...@triffid.co.uk>, Dave <da...@triffid.co.uk>
My router is at the top back of the house, a long way from where the BT
phone line enters the front of the house. I get good coverage from there
so I don't want to move it to the front of the house.
Presumably, my best option is Fibre to the Cabinet so I can keep all my
internal wiring as is. No taking up of floorboards etc.
Who decides if I get FTTC or FTTP: BT or me?
--
Chris Newman
wrote:
> G'day folks, I've been trying to read up about the BT move (Now in
> action) to dump copper wire connections and only have cable, but the
> info I've read is not very illuminating.
> I'm wondering if anyone here can illuminate a couple of points for me?
> 1) If they use FTTC and the BT cabinet is some way down the road as it
> is here, How do they then connect to my house?
> G'day folks, I've been trying to read up about the BT move (Now in
> action) to dump copper wire connections and only have cable, but the
> info I've read is not very illuminating.
> I'm wondering if anyone here can illuminate a couple of points for me?
> 1) If they use FTTC and the BT cabinet is some way down the road as it
> is here, How do they then connect to my house?
> 2) If they connect FTTP and bring the cable right to the wall of my
> house, what happens from their (I guess junction box) to connect inside
> the house to the Networking Router and phones?
I have read all the posts issuing from this.
> house, what happens from their (I guess junction box) to connect inside
> the house to the Networking Router and phones?
My router is at the top back of the house, a long way from where the BT
phone line enters the front of the house. I get good coverage from there
so I don't want to move it to the front of the house.
Presumably, my best option is Fibre to the Cabinet so I can keep all my
internal wiring as is. No taking up of floorboards etc.
Who decides if I get FTTC or FTTP: BT or me?
--
Chris Newman
Steve Fryatt
Nov 20, 2021, 12:55:03 PM11/20/21
to
On 20 Nov, Chris Newman wrote in message
<598e6dd3...@waitrose.com>:
> My router is at the top back of the house, a long way from where the BT
> phone line enters the front of the house. I get good coverage from there
> so I don't want to move it to the front of the house.
The router can be anywhere in the house: it just passes network traffic from
your LAN to your ISP's WAN.
If your concern is WiFi, it's entirely possible to have a separate Wireless
Access Point that's not in the router -- I've got that here, with the AP
pretty much in the centre of the property. The AP in the router, which is
tucked into the front-top-corner of the house by the ONT, is configured to
be off. (Although there's actually no reason why the ONT and router need to
be side by side -- they just need an ethernet cable between them, of
whatever length you choose.)
> Presumably, my best option is Fibre to the Cabinet so I can keep all my
> internal wiring as is. No taking up of floorboards etc.
To be honest, if you're changing product and FTTP is available, I'd go for
it. It's a better service, and not doing so just pushes the problem out by a
year or so.
> Who decides if I get FTTC or FTTP: BT or me?
Probably neither: it will ultimately come down to what Openreach are selling
in your area.
If both FTTP and FTTC are available, it may be your choice. But, if FTTP is
available in your area, and you're not currently on either, then you will
only be able to get FTTC if you're in an area that hasn't put a stop on the
sale of non-FTTP connections. Parts of Leeds are FTTP or nothing now, I
believe, even if FTTC is still running in the area for existing connections.
https://www.openreach.co.uk/cpportal/products/product-withdrawal/stop-sells-updates
If you're already on FTTC and FTTP is also available, then your service will
presumably be phased out at some point and you'll be migrated to FTTP.
However, that's probably over the next decade -- Openreach will presumably
have a priority order for decommissioning the PSTN/FTTC infrastructure based
on what's costing them the most to keep running.
--
<598e6dd3...@waitrose.com>:
> My router is at the top back of the house, a long way from where the BT
> phone line enters the front of the house. I get good coverage from there
> so I don't want to move it to the front of the house.
your LAN to your ISP's WAN.
If your concern is WiFi, it's entirely possible to have a separate Wireless
Access Point that's not in the router -- I've got that here, with the AP
pretty much in the centre of the property. The AP in the router, which is
tucked into the front-top-corner of the house by the ONT, is configured to
be off. (Although there's actually no reason why the ONT and router need to
be side by side -- they just need an ethernet cable between them, of
whatever length you choose.)
> Presumably, my best option is Fibre to the Cabinet so I can keep all my
> internal wiring as is. No taking up of floorboards etc.
it. It's a better service, and not doing so just pushes the problem out by a
year or so.
> Who decides if I get FTTC or FTTP: BT or me?
in your area.
If both FTTP and FTTC are available, it may be your choice. But, if FTTP is
available in your area, and you're not currently on either, then you will
only be able to get FTTC if you're in an area that hasn't put a stop on the
sale of non-FTTP connections. Parts of Leeds are FTTP or nothing now, I
believe, even if FTTC is still running in the area for existing connections.
https://www.openreach.co.uk/cpportal/products/product-withdrawal/stop-sells-updates
If you're already on FTTC and FTTP is also available, then your service will
presumably be phased out at some point and you'll be migrated to FTTP.
However, that's probably over the next decade -- Openreach will presumably
have a priority order for decommissioning the PSTN/FTTC infrastructure based
on what's costing them the most to keep running.
--
Steve Fryatt - Leeds, England
http://www.stevefryatt.org.uk/
Martin
Nov 20, 2021, 1:25:46 PM11/20/21
to
In article <mpro.r2vtq405...@stevefryatt.org.uk>,
router is connected to the BT Master Socket by telephone wiring. The
strong recommendation is that is a short as possible. I had my master
socket moved round the back of the house to avoid a long extension,
and help improve my speed slightly.
However, for FTTP the ONT (ie BT box) needs to be connected to the
router by Ethernet cable (which can be long) not telephone cable. The
router also needs to be capable of connecting to ethernet WAN (which
many modern ones are). A new suitable router may be provided by your
ISP, but a long connecting cable is up to you.
I recently installed a new router which copes with FTTC now (and FTTP
sometime?), and control a WiFi mesh with high-speed repeaters (which
has improved my WiFi coverage). It also includes a DECT station for
'landline' phones, and can have analogue phones plugged in as well,
all going over VOIP.
Steve Fryatt <ne...@stevefryatt.org.uk> wrote:
> The router can be anywhere in the house: it just passes network
> traffic from your LAN to your ISP's WAN.
That is true ... but If you are on ADSL or VDSL (ie FTTC) then ithe
> The router can be anywhere in the house: it just passes network
> traffic from your LAN to your ISP's WAN.
router is connected to the BT Master Socket by telephone wiring. The
strong recommendation is that is a short as possible. I had my master
socket moved round the back of the house to avoid a long extension,
and help improve my speed slightly.
However, for FTTP the ONT (ie BT box) needs to be connected to the
router by Ethernet cable (which can be long) not telephone cable. The
router also needs to be capable of connecting to ethernet WAN (which
many modern ones are). A new suitable router may be provided by your
ISP, but a long connecting cable is up to you.
I recently installed a new router which copes with FTTC now (and FTTP
sometime?), and control a WiFi mesh with high-speed repeaters (which
has improved my WiFi coverage). It also includes a DECT station for
'landline' phones, and can have analogue phones plugged in as well,
all going over VOIP.
Dave
Nov 20, 2021, 3:30:24 PM11/20/21
to
In article <598e757e...@avisoft.f9.co.uk>,
Martin <New...@avisoft.f9.co.uk> wrote:
[Snippy]
before it needs a booster?
Thanks
Dave
--
Dave Triffid
Martin <New...@avisoft.f9.co.uk> wrote:
[Snippy]
> However, for FTTP the ONT (ie BT box) needs to be connected to the
> router by Ethernet cable (which can be long) not telephone cable. The
> router also needs to be capable of connecting to ethernet WAN (which
> many modern ones are). A new suitable router may be provided by your
> ISP, but a long connecting cable is up to you.
Anyone have any idea how long the (Say Cat5e) cable from the ONT can be
> router by Ethernet cable (which can be long) not telephone cable. The
> router also needs to be capable of connecting to ethernet WAN (which
> many modern ones are). A new suitable router may be provided by your
> ISP, but a long connecting cable is up to you.
before it needs a booster?
Thanks
Dave
--
Dave Triffid
Dave
Nov 20, 2021, 3:35:53 PM11/20/21
to
In article <598e80d...@triffid.co.uk>,
I've just questioned Mr Google and it informs 100 metres.
Dave
--
Dave Triffid
Dave
--
Dave Triffid
Steve Fryatt
Nov 20, 2021, 3:55:04 PM11/20/21
to
On 20 Nov, Dave wrote in message
<598e80d...@triffid.co.uk>:
> Anyone have any idea how long the (Say Cat5e) cable from the ONT can be
> before it needs a booster?
100m is the figure in the Ethernet spec, I think.
<598e80d...@triffid.co.uk>:
> Anyone have any idea how long the (Say Cat5e) cable from the ONT can be
> before it needs a booster?
Dave Plowman (News)
Nov 20, 2021, 7:27:17 PM11/20/21
to
> > My router is at the top back of the house, a long way from where the BT
> > phone line enters the front of the house. I get good coverage from there
> > so I don't want to move it to the front of the house.
> The router can be anywhere in the house: it just passes network traffic from
> your LAN to your ISP's WAN.
But with fibre, I assume it has to be where the cable comes into the house?
> > phone line enters the front of the house. I get good coverage from there
> > so I don't want to move it to the front of the house.
> The router can be anywhere in the house: it just passes network traffic from
> your LAN to your ISP's WAN.
Didn't matter before, as a few more feet of copper likely to make little
difference.
That of course assumes the fibre plugs into the new router without an
intermediate box.
--
*Change is inevitable ... except from vending machines *
Theo
Nov 21, 2021, 4:33:08 AM11/21/21
to
"Dave Plowman (News)" <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
> But with fibre, I assume it has to be where the cable comes into the house?
>
> Didn't matter before, as a few more feet of copper likely to make little
> difference.
> That of course assumes the fibre plugs into the new router without an
> intermediate box.
No, the ONT is placed where the fibre comes in, from there it's copper
>
> Didn't matter before, as a few more feet of copper likely to make little
> difference.
> That of course assumes the fibre plugs into the new router without an
> intermediate box.
(ethernet) and you can run that to wherever you want the router.
Some other fibre networks (altnets) merge the router and ONT into a single
box and that does need to be near the fibre ingress. Although you can get
fibre extension cables and it's possible to 'unofficially' extend the fibre,
but I'd be ready to put everything back as it was installed if you needed to
report a fault.
There's a lot to be said for disaggregating functions: the ONT goes where is
most convenient for the fibre, the router goes where you want the ethernet
and phone ports, and separate wireless access point(s) go where is best for
wifi signal.
Theo
Chris Hughes
Nov 21, 2021, 4:41:00 AM11/21/21
to
In message <598e961...@davenoise.co.uk>
> Didn't matter before, as a few more feet of copper likely to make little
> difference.
Openreach will install the Full Fibre within reason (ask nicely) in
another location, but the ONT must be near a power supply.
> That of course assumes the fibre plugs into the new router without an
> intermediate box.
The router is linked to the ONT box which brings the full fibre into your
property and the ONT is linked to your router by Ethernet cable (Cat 5e
cable which can support 1000Mbps can be up to 100 metre long)
--
Chris Hughes
> In article <mpro.r2vtq405...@stevefryatt.org.uk>,
> Steve Fryatt <ne...@stevefryatt.org.uk> wrote:
>>> My router is at the top back of the house, a long way from where the BT
>>> phone line enters the front of the house. I get good coverage from there
>>> so I don't want to move it to the front of the house.
>> The router can be anywhere in the house: it just passes network traffic from
>> your LAN to your ISP's WAN.
> But with fibre, I assume it has to be where the cable comes into the house?
No the router can be elsewhere within reason, depends on your setup.
> Steve Fryatt <ne...@stevefryatt.org.uk> wrote:
>>> My router is at the top back of the house, a long way from where the BT
>>> phone line enters the front of the house. I get good coverage from there
>>> so I don't want to move it to the front of the house.
>> The router can be anywhere in the house: it just passes network traffic from
>> your LAN to your ISP's WAN.
> But with fibre, I assume it has to be where the cable comes into the house?
> Didn't matter before, as a few more feet of copper likely to make little
> difference.
another location, but the ONT must be near a power supply.
> That of course assumes the fibre plugs into the new router without an
> intermediate box.
property and the ONT is linked to your router by Ethernet cable (Cat 5e
cable which can support 1000Mbps can be up to 100 metre long)
--
Chris Hughes
Steve Fryatt
Nov 21, 2021, 4:55:07 AM11/21/21
to
On 21 Nov, "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
<598e961...@davenoise.co.uk>:
> In article <mpro.r2vtq405...@stevefryatt.org.uk>,
> Steve Fryatt <ne...@stevefryatt.org.uk> wrote:
>
> > The router can be anywhere in the house: it just passes network traffic
> > from your LAN to your ISP's WAN.
>
> But with fibre, I assume it has to be where the cable comes into the
> house?
No, as I keep writing here: the Optical Network Terminator (ONT) is what
turns the fibre into copper, and /that/ needs to be wherever the Openreach
installer will place it.
The router connects to the ONT via a standard ethernet cable with RJ45s on
the ends, and can be wherever you want it to be (within 100m, as already
discussed). It could be right next to the ONT, or it could be exactly where
your ADSL modem/router was, with CAT5 between it and the ONT.
> Didn't matter before, as a few more feet of copper likely to make little
> difference.
It matters even less now. "A few feet of copper" could easily be a very big
deal to an ADSL signal, whereas it will make minimal difference to the
ethernet data.
> That of course assumes the fibre plugs into the new router without an
> intermediate box.
Unless the hardware has changed again, it doesn't.
<598e961...@davenoise.co.uk>:
> In article <mpro.r2vtq405...@stevefryatt.org.uk>,
> Steve Fryatt <ne...@stevefryatt.org.uk> wrote:
>
> > The router can be anywhere in the house: it just passes network traffic
> > from your LAN to your ISP's WAN.
>
> But with fibre, I assume it has to be where the cable comes into the
> house?
turns the fibre into copper, and /that/ needs to be wherever the Openreach
installer will place it.
The router connects to the ONT via a standard ethernet cable with RJ45s on
the ends, and can be wherever you want it to be (within 100m, as already
discussed). It could be right next to the ONT, or it could be exactly where
your ADSL modem/router was, with CAT5 between it and the ONT.
> Didn't matter before, as a few more feet of copper likely to make little
> difference.
deal to an ADSL signal, whereas it will make minimal difference to the
ethernet data.
> That of course assumes the fibre plugs into the new router without an
> intermediate box.
Dave Plowman (News)
Nov 21, 2021, 7:26:55 AM11/21/21
to
In article <037fc88e...@mytarbis.plus.com>,
Ah - right. Thought they might have produced an all in one unit.
--
*Remember: First you pillage, then you burn.
--
*Remember: First you pillage, then you burn.
Dave Plowman (News)
Nov 21, 2021, 7:26:55 AM11/21/21
to
In article <mpro.r2x1v000...@stevefryatt.org.uk>,
of hundred yards. Extending that properly within your house is going to
make a big difference?
--
*Welcome to Shit Creek - sorry, we're out of paddles*
Steve Fryatt <ne...@stevefryatt.org.uk> wrote:
> > Didn't matter before, as a few more feet of copper likely to make little
> > difference.
> It matters even less now. "A few feet of copper" could easily be a very big
> deal to an ADSL signal, whereas it will make minimal difference to the
> ethernet data.
I get about 80 MBPS with copper from the cabinet to the house - a couple
> > Didn't matter before, as a few more feet of copper likely to make little
> > difference.
> It matters even less now. "A few feet of copper" could easily be a very big
> deal to an ADSL signal, whereas it will make minimal difference to the
> ethernet data.
of hundred yards. Extending that properly within your house is going to
make a big difference?
--
*Welcome to Shit Creek - sorry, we're out of paddles*
Chris Newman
Nov 21, 2021, 7:29:41 AM11/21/21
to
In article <mpro.r2x1v000...@stevefryatt.org.uk>, Steve Fryatt
Steve & others say I have to tear up floorboards to run a CAT cable, Theo
says No, the ONT is placed where the fibre comes in, from there it's
copper (ethernet) and you can run that to wherever you want the router so
I can use the existing copper.
Who is correct?
--
Chris Newman
<ne...@stevefryatt.org.uk> wrote:
> On 21 Nov, "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
> <598e961...@davenoise.co.uk>:
> > In article <mpro.r2vtq405...@stevefryatt.org.uk>, Steve
> > Fryatt <ne...@stevefryatt.org.uk> wrote:
> >
> > > The router can be anywhere in the house: it just passes network
> > > traffic from your LAN to your ISP's WAN.
> >
> > But with fibre, I assume it has to be where the cable comes into the
> > house?
> No, as I keep writing here: the Optical Network Terminator (ONT) is
> what turns the fibre into copper, and /that/ needs to be wherever the
> Openreach installer will place it.
> The router connects to the ONT via a standard ethernet cable with RJ45s
> on the ends, and can be wherever you want it to be (within 100m, as
> already discussed). It could be right next to the ONT, or it could be
> exactly where your ADSL modem/router was, with CAT5 between it and the
> ONT.
Conflicting statements here.
> On 21 Nov, "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
> <598e961...@davenoise.co.uk>:
> > In article <mpro.r2vtq405...@stevefryatt.org.uk>, Steve
> > Fryatt <ne...@stevefryatt.org.uk> wrote:
> >
> > > The router can be anywhere in the house: it just passes network
> > > traffic from your LAN to your ISP's WAN.
> >
> > But with fibre, I assume it has to be where the cable comes into the
> > house?
> No, as I keep writing here: the Optical Network Terminator (ONT) is
> what turns the fibre into copper, and /that/ needs to be wherever the
> Openreach installer will place it.
> The router connects to the ONT via a standard ethernet cable with RJ45s
> on the ends, and can be wherever you want it to be (within 100m, as
> already discussed). It could be right next to the ONT, or it could be
> exactly where your ADSL modem/router was, with CAT5 between it and the
> ONT.
Steve & others say I have to tear up floorboards to run a CAT cable, Theo
says No, the ONT is placed where the fibre comes in, from there it's
copper (ethernet) and you can run that to wherever you want the router so
I can use the existing copper.
Who is correct?
--
Chris Newman
Martin
Nov 21, 2021, 8:22:46 AM11/21/21
to
In article <598ed8ba...@waitrose.com>,
You can use the existing copper ... *if* it is a CAT5 cable. But it it
is normal telephone extension cable, then no, because that is not
(normally) CAT5 cable and cannot carry ethernet (or might, but not
very well). All AFAIK.
Many years ago when I installed a long telephone extension cable here
from front to back (via loft) I *really* *Really* wish I had put in
CAT5 cable. It would have made future options much easier!
is normal telephone extension cable, then no, because that is not
(normally) CAT5 cable and cannot carry ethernet (or might, but not
very well). All AFAIK.
Many years ago when I installed a long telephone extension cable here
from front to back (via loft) I *really* *Really* wish I had put in
CAT5 cable. It would have made future options much easier!
Steve Fryatt
Nov 21, 2021, 9:35:04 AM11/21/21
to
On 21 Nov, Chris Newman wrote in message
<598ed8ba...@waitrose.com>:
> Steve & others say I have to tear up floorboards to run a CAT cable, Theo
> says No, the ONT is placed where the fibre comes in, from there it's
> copper (ethernet) and you can run that to wherever you want the router so
> I can use the existing copper.
I'm unsure where the conflict is? I've also said (many times, now) that the
ONT goes where the fibre comes into the property.
If you've wired your existing internal phone extension for the ADSL in CAT5,
then you can, indeed, reuse that cable to get the network connection from
the ONT to your existing router location. However, if you've used standard
UK phone twisted pair, which is what I suspect most ADSL extensions will be,
then you'll need to replace that with CAT5 or better.
<598ed8ba...@waitrose.com>:
> Steve & others say I have to tear up floorboards to run a CAT cable, Theo
> says No, the ONT is placed where the fibre comes in, from there it's
> copper (ethernet) and you can run that to wherever you want the router so
> I can use the existing copper.
ONT goes where the fibre comes into the property.
If you've wired your existing internal phone extension for the ADSL in CAT5,
then you can, indeed, reuse that cable to get the network connection from
the ONT to your existing router location. However, if you've used standard
UK phone twisted pair, which is what I suspect most ADSL extensions will be,
then you'll need to replace that with CAT5 or better.
Russell Hafter News
Nov 21, 2021, 4:26:50 PM11/21/21
to
In article
<mpro.r2xe9b03...@stevefryatt.org.uk>, Steve
ADSL? Mine certainly do, so yes, phone extensions are wired
with standard UK phone twisted pair.
I am pretty familiar with wiring phone extensions, but no
idea how you would do phone wiring with CAT5 cable and RJ45
sockets when the phone has a standard BT plug?
Not sure that I would want CAT5 cables (very much thicker
than BT wire) running all around the house without trunking
(which is often ugly) or chasing it into the wall and
redecorating (which is a skilled job and potentially very
expensive.
I need to look at Theo's links about Voice Re-injection.
<mpro.r2xe9b03...@stevefryatt.org.uk>, Steve
Fryatt <ne...@stevefryatt.org.uk> wrote:
> If you've wired your existing internal phone extension
> for the ADSL in CAT5, then you can, indeed, reuse that
> cable to get the network connection from the ONT to your
> existing router location. However, if you've used
> standard UK phone twisted pair, which is what I suspect
> most ADSL extensions will be, then you'll need to replace
> that with CAT5 or better.
I would imagine that many people's phone extensions pre-date
> If you've wired your existing internal phone extension
> for the ADSL in CAT5, then you can, indeed, reuse that
> cable to get the network connection from the ONT to your
> existing router location. However, if you've used
> standard UK phone twisted pair, which is what I suspect
> most ADSL extensions will be, then you'll need to replace
> that with CAT5 or better.
ADSL? Mine certainly do, so yes, phone extensions are wired
with standard UK phone twisted pair.
I am pretty familiar with wiring phone extensions, but no
idea how you would do phone wiring with CAT5 cable and RJ45
sockets when the phone has a standard BT plug?
Not sure that I would want CAT5 cables (very much thicker
than BT wire) running all around the house without trunking
(which is often ugly) or chasing it into the wall and
redecorating (which is a skilled job and potentially very
expensive.
I need to look at Theo's links about Voice Re-injection.
Russell Hafter News
Nov 21, 2021, 4:55:33 PM11/21/21
to
In article <aPf*up...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>,
about them. No idea as to what they cost either.
My brand new router does not have a phone socket - I had
thought that they were only for use with the likes of
Sipgate? TBH I did not see any (at a half reasonable price)
that did and were available to buy...
I have checked Sipgate and others pricing, but there is no
advantage pricewise against what I am paying now, and the
VOIP handsets seem to be expensive too.
I have ADSL at present, and we do not at present see any
advantage to changing to FTTC or FTTP - indeed I would see
it as just an extra expense.
> You plug a phone cable from your router or ATA into the
> green socket, and that pipes analogue phone signals to
> your extensions.
So it will not be just a matter of plugging a wire into one
of the ethernet sockets (RJ45) on the router and the other
end into the green socket?
Instead I am going to need an ATA to plug into the router
and then plug that back into the existing wiring?
It all looks expensive!
Theo <theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> > > I understand that in future I can plug a phone into an
> > > adaptor that plugs into the router (it does not have
> > > its own adaptor built in).
> > I'd like to read some information about such an adaptor.
> I assume Russell is referring to an Analogue Telephone
> Adapter (ATA), which is how to convert regular analogue
> phones to VOIP.
Yes, though I know next to nothing about them. Just read
> > > I understand that in future I can plug a phone into an
> > > adaptor that plugs into the router (it does not have
> > > its own adaptor built in).
> > I'd like to read some information about such an adaptor.
> I assume Russell is referring to an Analogue Telephone
> Adapter (ATA), which is how to convert regular analogue
> phones to VOIP.
about them. No idea as to what they cost either.
My brand new router does not have a phone socket - I had
thought that they were only for use with the likes of
Sipgate? TBH I did not see any (at a half reasonable price)
that did and were available to buy...
I have checked Sipgate and others pricing, but there is no
advantage pricewise against what I am paying now, and the
VOIP handsets seem to be expensive too.
I have ADSL at present, and we do not at present see any
advantage to changing to FTTC or FTTP - indeed I would see
it as just an extra expense.
> You plug a phone cable from your router or ATA into the
> green socket, and that pipes analogue phone signals to
> your extensions.
of the ethernet sockets (RJ45) on the router and the other
end into the green socket?
Instead I am going to need an ATA to plug into the router
and then plug that back into the existing wiring?
It all looks expensive!
Steve Fryatt
Nov 21, 2021, 6:55:03 PM11/21/21
to
On 21 Nov, Russell Hafter News wrote in message
<598f0a28...@russellhafter.me.invalid>:
> In article <mpro.r2xe9b03...@stevefryatt.org.uk>, Steve Fryatt
> <ne...@stevefryatt.org.uk> wrote:
>
> > If you've wired your existing internal phone extension for the ADSL in
> > CAT5
[snip]
> I would imagine that many people's phone extensions pre-date ADSL? Mine
> certainly do, so yes, phone extensions are wired with standard UK phone
> twisted pair.
Many people have run a new AB pair from the unfiltered side of a filtered
master socket, specifically for ADSL -- that way, all of the old phone
extensions can be filtered at the master socket, and there's no need for
filters on each phone.
Such an installation will probably still use three-pair phone wire, not
CAT5, but it could depend on what cable was to hand. Three-pair phone wire
is surprisingly hard to find in places like Homebase, and can't be used for
much else.
> I am pretty familiar with wiring phone extensions, but no idea how you
> would do phone wiring with CAT5 cable and RJ45 sockets when the phone has
> a standard BT plug?
You wouldn't use RJ45 plugs? I'm fairly sure that you could terminate
solid-core CAT5 into UK phone sockets; the push-down tool is certainly
exchangeable with RJ11 and RJ45 sockets.
That said, RJ45 plug to UK phone socket adapters are a common thing: in
offices (before the days of IP phones), you'd just plug the phones into
spare network drops and patch the end in the comms room back to the PABX
accordingly.
> Not sure that I would want CAT5 cables (very much thicker than BT wire)
> running all around the house without trunking (which is often ugly) or
> chasing it into the wall and redecorating (which is a skilled job and
> potentially very expensive.
The two reels that I have here, of three-pair phone cable and CAT5, are
similar ODs. We're not talking significantly different sizes.
<598f0a28...@russellhafter.me.invalid>:
> In article <mpro.r2xe9b03...@stevefryatt.org.uk>, Steve Fryatt
> <ne...@stevefryatt.org.uk> wrote:
>
> > If you've wired your existing internal phone extension for the ADSL in
> > CAT5
> I would imagine that many people's phone extensions pre-date ADSL? Mine
> certainly do, so yes, phone extensions are wired with standard UK phone
> twisted pair.
master socket, specifically for ADSL -- that way, all of the old phone
extensions can be filtered at the master socket, and there's no need for
filters on each phone.
Such an installation will probably still use three-pair phone wire, not
CAT5, but it could depend on what cable was to hand. Three-pair phone wire
is surprisingly hard to find in places like Homebase, and can't be used for
much else.
> I am pretty familiar with wiring phone extensions, but no idea how you
> would do phone wiring with CAT5 cable and RJ45 sockets when the phone has
> a standard BT plug?
solid-core CAT5 into UK phone sockets; the push-down tool is certainly
exchangeable with RJ11 and RJ45 sockets.
That said, RJ45 plug to UK phone socket adapters are a common thing: in
offices (before the days of IP phones), you'd just plug the phones into
spare network drops and patch the end in the comms room back to the PABX
accordingly.
> Not sure that I would want CAT5 cables (very much thicker than BT wire)
> running all around the house without trunking (which is often ugly) or
> chasing it into the wall and redecorating (which is a skilled job and
> potentially very expensive.
similar ODs. We're not talking significantly different sizes.
Steve Fryatt
Nov 21, 2021, 7:15:04 PM11/21/21
to
On 21 Nov, Russell Hafter News wrote in message
<598f0cc9...@russellhafter.me.invalid>:
> In article <aPf*up...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>,
> Theo <theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>
> > You plug a phone cable from your router or ATA into the green socket,
> > and that pipes analogue phone signals to your extensions.
>
> So it will not be just a matter of plugging a wire into one of the
> ethernet sockets (RJ45) on the router and the other end into the green
> socket?
router instead. The ONT here has a UK phone socket on the bottom, next to
the ethernet socket that goes to the router, but it isn't used as I still
have a copper pair coming into the house.
There's been a suggestion here (from Doug?) that the ONTs on offer now by
Openreach don't have the phone connection, so it will presumably be in the
router instead.
Aha. Something like this:
https://en.avm.de/products/fritzbox/fritzbox-7590/technical-specifications/
On an FTTP setup, the ONT plugs into the WAN port, your local network into
the 4 LAN ports, and your phones into the 2 analog ports.
It doesn't say if more than one phone can go into each of the two ports, but
since they're just AB connections, presumably they could so long as you
don't have several high REN devices. Presumably one port could go to the
aforementioned green socket.
> Instead I am going to need an ATA to plug into the router and then plug
> that back into the existing wiring?
> It all looks expensive!
It probably can be, but for the average user, I'd expect that everything
would be supplied as part of the package. The discussion that we're having
here is definitely not "average".
Doug Webb
Nov 22, 2021, 4:34:17 AM11/22/21
to
In message <mpro.r2y5fa08...@stevefryatt.org.uk>
mention of it by me, but as ever happy to be corrected.
But just to help here are the ones that Openreach use:
https://www.bt.com/help/broadband/whats-an-openreach-modem-ont
The only thing I mentioned was the issues around Full fibre delivery of
broadband whilst retaining copper for the phone service that is being
withdrawn as well and the issues around that highlighted last year.
> It probably can be, but for the average user, I'd expect that everything
> would be supplied as part of the package. The discussion that we're having
> here is definitely not "average".
Yep and thats why most companies will go for their packaged solution as it
helps the migration and don't mention the lock in benefits :-)
If someone wants to go their own way then there are plenty of Voip
solution providers out there now that can be used.
--
Experience the future using ARM Technology - ARMBook,BeagleBoard -xM,
PandaBoard,Raspberry Pi,iMX6/ARMX6,IGEPv5 & Titanium powered by RISC OS
5.28.
Steve Fryatt <ne...@stevefryatt.org.uk> wrote:
> There's been a suggestion here (from Doug?) that the ONTs on offer now by
> Openreach don't have the phone connection, so it will presumably be in the
> router instead.
Don't recall saying that and looking back at the thread I can't see any
> There's been a suggestion here (from Doug?) that the ONTs on offer now by
> Openreach don't have the phone connection, so it will presumably be in the
> router instead.
mention of it by me, but as ever happy to be corrected.
But just to help here are the ones that Openreach use:
https://www.bt.com/help/broadband/whats-an-openreach-modem-ont
The only thing I mentioned was the issues around Full fibre delivery of
broadband whilst retaining copper for the phone service that is being
withdrawn as well and the issues around that highlighted last year.
> It probably can be, but for the average user, I'd expect that everything
> would be supplied as part of the package. The discussion that we're having
> here is definitely not "average".
helps the migration and don't mention the lock in benefits :-)
If someone wants to go their own way then there are plenty of Voip
solution providers out there now that can be used.
--
Experience the future using ARM Technology - ARMBook,BeagleBoard -xM,
PandaBoard,Raspberry Pi,iMX6/ARMX6,IGEPv5 & Titanium powered by RISC OS
5.28.
Theo
Nov 22, 2021, 5:30:32 AM11/22/21
to
Doug Webb <doug....@btinternet.com> wrote:
> In message <mpro.r2y5fa08...@stevefryatt.org.uk>
> Steve Fryatt <ne...@stevefryatt.org.uk> wrote:
>
>
>
> > There's been a suggestion here (from Doug?) that the ONTs on offer now by
> > Openreach don't have the phone connection, so it will presumably be in the
> > router instead.
>
> Don't recall saying that and looking back at the thread I can't see any
> mention of it by me, but as ever happy to be corrected.
>
> But just to help here are the ones that Openreach use:
>
> https://www.bt.com/help/broadband/whats-an-openreach-modem-ont
>
> The only thing I mentioned was the issues around Full fibre delivery of
> broadband whilst retaining copper for the phone service that is being
> withdrawn as well and the issues around that highlighted last year.
They've gone through several iterations, including providing a new copper
> In message <mpro.r2y5fa08...@stevefryatt.org.uk>
> Steve Fryatt <ne...@stevefryatt.org.uk> wrote:
>
>
>
> > There's been a suggestion here (from Doug?) that the ONTs on offer now by
> > Openreach don't have the phone connection, so it will presumably be in the
> > router instead.
>
> Don't recall saying that and looking back at the thread I can't see any
> mention of it by me, but as ever happy to be corrected.
>
> But just to help here are the ones that Openreach use:
>
> https://www.bt.com/help/broadband/whats-an-openreach-modem-ont
>
> The only thing I mentioned was the issues around Full fibre delivery of
> broadband whilst retaining copper for the phone service that is being
> withdrawn as well and the issues around that highlighted last year.
pair for voice only, and running voice through the ONT. Those are all EOL
now. New installs are getting the one-port modem without battery backup -
the last picture on that page (not necessarily in that hinged outer cover as
they depict, instead directly mounted on the wall). There's no phone socket
because the new world order is that all voice is run from your ISP through
their router. Openreach will no longer handle any voice services, it's all
data from their point of view.
> > It probably can be, but for the average user, I'd expect that everything
> > would be supplied as part of the package. The discussion that we're having
> > here is definitely not "average".
>
> Yep and thats why most companies will go for their packaged solution as it
> helps the migration and don't mention the lock in benefits :-)
>
> If someone wants to go their own way then there are plenty of Voip
> solution providers out there now that can be used.
VOIP, they're not unlike buying your own router or DECT phone - kind of £40
territory. You don't notice those on a conventional broadband contract
because the 'free' router they supply is spread over the 12/18/24 months of
your contract and you don't notice the £2-3 a month.
For example, I have one of these VOIP to DECT bridges:
https://www.internetvoipphone.co.uk/gigaset-n300ip.html
and then my existing (Gigaset) DECT phones connect to that. It looks like a
regular DECT setup, just the uplink is ethernet not analogue phone. I use
Andrews and Arnold who offer 'line rental' for £1.20 a month and then calls
are on a PAYG basis (eg 1.5p/min to landlines)
That replaced a Linksys PAP2T box for plugging in wired phones - I'll sell
that for £25 including UK post if anyone wants it.
Theo
Martin
Nov 22, 2021, 6:02:10 AM11/22/21
to
In article <mpro.r2y4ql07...@stevefryatt.org.uk>,
Just like to add for emphasis: my understanding is that the only new
CAT5 Ethernet cable required will be from the FTTP Openreach ONT
(modem) to your Router, which is no problem when the Router is next to
the ONT.
However, if they are some way apart and currently connected by phone
wiring for ADSL or VDSL (FTTC), then that connection will have to be
replaced by CAT5 cable. When The FTTP ONT is installed, you may be
able to influence where it goes.
I have read several reports that newer ONTs do not have a phone
socket, and it seems that existing analog phones will be connected to
the Router. Any internal phone wiring does not have to change to CAT5,
but it may need adjusting so your phones work connected to the Router
- opinions seems to vary, and things are still changing. Also
suppliers other than Openreach may also be different, as will
phone-line-only premises.
CAT5 Ethernet cable required will be from the FTTP Openreach ONT
(modem) to your Router, which is no problem when the Router is next to
the ONT.
However, if they are some way apart and currently connected by phone
wiring for ADSL or VDSL (FTTC), then that connection will have to be
replaced by CAT5 cable. When The FTTP ONT is installed, you may be
able to influence where it goes.
I have read several reports that newer ONTs do not have a phone
socket, and it seems that existing analog phones will be connected to
the Router. Any internal phone wiring does not have to change to CAT5,
but it may need adjusting so your phones work connected to the Router
- opinions seems to vary, and things are still changing. Also
suppliers other than Openreach may also be different, as will
phone-line-only premises.
Doug Webb
Nov 22, 2021, 6:07:24 AM11/22/21
to
In message <bPf*rX...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>
on the Nokia modem and fits in with the PSTN closure freeing Openreach of
the obligation to provide any phone service.
Theo <theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> They've gone through several iterations, including providing a new copper
> pair for voice only, and running voice through the ONT. Those are all EOL
> now. New installs are getting the one-port modem without battery backup -
> the last picture on that page (not necessarily in that hinged outer cover as
> they depict, instead directly mounted on the wall). There's no phone socket
> because the new world order is that all voice is run from your ISP through
> their router. Openreach will no longer handle any voice services, it's all
> data from their point of view.
That makes sense and when I looked at the site I couldn't see a phone port
> They've gone through several iterations, including providing a new copper
> pair for voice only, and running voice through the ONT. Those are all EOL
> now. New installs are getting the one-port modem without battery backup -
> the last picture on that page (not necessarily in that hinged outer cover as
> they depict, instead directly mounted on the wall). There's no phone socket
> because the new world order is that all voice is run from your ISP through
> their router. Openreach will no longer handle any voice services, it's all
> data from their point of view.
on the Nokia modem and fits in with the PSTN closure freeing Openreach of
the obligation to provide any phone service.
Russell Hafter News
Nov 22, 2021, 11:28:41 AM11/22/21
to
In article
<mpro.r2y4ql07...@stevefryatt.org.uk>, Steve
use CAT5 for the ADSL side. Presumably the phone cable still
ends in an RJ11 socket?
> Such an installation will probably still use three-pair
> phone wire, not CAT5, but it could depend on what cable
> was to hand. Three-pair phone wire is surprisingly hard
> to find in places like Homebase, and can't be used for
> much else.
Never seen three-pair phone wire (blue, orange and green) on
sale anywhere, though the original extensions in this house
are all three-pair. But I had never seen that until I moved
into it.
I have only ever seen two-pair (blue and orange) for sale,
and that is what I have always bought and used.
What was the point of the extra (green) pair? All the phone
instructions, even when there were six terminals, always
only referred to 4 wires.
> > I am pretty familiar with wiring phone extensions, but
> > no idea how you would do phone wiring with CAT5 cable
> > and RJ45 sockets when the phone has a standard BT plug?
> You wouldn't use RJ45 plugs? I'm fairly sure that you
> could terminate solid-core CAT5 into UK phone sockets;
> the push-down tool is certainly exchangeable with RJ11
> and RJ45 sockets.
> That said, RJ45 plug to UK phone socket adapters are a
> common thing: in offices (before the days of IP phones),
> you'd just plug the phones into spare network drops and
> patch the end in the comms room back to the PABX
> accordingly.
Again, never seen RJ45 to BT adaptors, only RJ11 socket to
BT plug.
> > Not sure that I would want CAT5 cables (very much
> > thicker than BT wire) running all around the house
> > without trunking (which is often ugly) or chasing it
> > into the wall and redecorating (which is a skilled job
> > and potentially very expensive.
> The two reels that I have here, of three-pair phone cable
> and CAT5, are similar ODs. We're not talking
> significantly different sizes.
I was comparing the thickness of two-pair phone cable, which
is significantly thinner than the old three-pair here, with
ethernet cables. Do not have measuring calipers to had, but
I would guess that the ethernet cables are at least 3x
thicker than two-pair phone wire.
<mpro.r2y4ql07...@stevefryatt.org.uk>, Steve
Fryatt <ne...@stevefryatt.org.uk> wrote:
> On 21 Nov, Russell Hafter News wrote in message
> <598f0a28...@russellhafter.me.invalid>:
> > In article
> > <mpro.r2xe9b03...@stevefryatt.org.uk>, Steve
> > Fryatt <ne...@stevefryatt.org.uk> wrote:
> >
> > > If you've wired your existing internal phone
> > > extension for the ADSL in CAT5
> [snip]
> > I would imagine that many people's phone extensions
> > pre-date ADSL? Mine certainly do, so yes, phone
> > extensions are wired with standard UK phone twisted
> > pair.
> Many people have run a new AB pair from the unfiltered
> side of a filtered master socket, specifically for ADSL
> -- that way, all of the old phone extensions can be
> filtered at the master socket, and there's no need for
> filters on each phone.
I have never heard of that one! I thought that you had to
> On 21 Nov, Russell Hafter News wrote in message
> <598f0a28...@russellhafter.me.invalid>:
> > In article
> > <mpro.r2xe9b03...@stevefryatt.org.uk>, Steve
> > Fryatt <ne...@stevefryatt.org.uk> wrote:
> >
> > > If you've wired your existing internal phone
> > > extension for the ADSL in CAT5
> [snip]
> > I would imagine that many people's phone extensions
> > pre-date ADSL? Mine certainly do, so yes, phone
> > extensions are wired with standard UK phone twisted
> > pair.
> Many people have run a new AB pair from the unfiltered
> side of a filtered master socket, specifically for ADSL
> -- that way, all of the old phone extensions can be
> filtered at the master socket, and there's no need for
> filters on each phone.
use CAT5 for the ADSL side. Presumably the phone cable still
ends in an RJ11 socket?
> Such an installation will probably still use three-pair
> phone wire, not CAT5, but it could depend on what cable
> was to hand. Three-pair phone wire is surprisingly hard
> to find in places like Homebase, and can't be used for
> much else.
sale anywhere, though the original extensions in this house
are all three-pair. But I had never seen that until I moved
into it.
I have only ever seen two-pair (blue and orange) for sale,
and that is what I have always bought and used.
What was the point of the extra (green) pair? All the phone
instructions, even when there were six terminals, always
only referred to 4 wires.
> > I am pretty familiar with wiring phone extensions, but
> > no idea how you would do phone wiring with CAT5 cable
> > and RJ45 sockets when the phone has a standard BT plug?
> You wouldn't use RJ45 plugs? I'm fairly sure that you
> could terminate solid-core CAT5 into UK phone sockets;
> the push-down tool is certainly exchangeable with RJ11
> and RJ45 sockets.
> That said, RJ45 plug to UK phone socket adapters are a
> common thing: in offices (before the days of IP phones),
> you'd just plug the phones into spare network drops and
> patch the end in the comms room back to the PABX
> accordingly.
BT plug.
> > Not sure that I would want CAT5 cables (very much
> > thicker than BT wire) running all around the house
> > without trunking (which is often ugly) or chasing it
> > into the wall and redecorating (which is a skilled job
> > and potentially very expensive.
> The two reels that I have here, of three-pair phone cable
> and CAT5, are similar ODs. We're not talking
> significantly different sizes.
is significantly thinner than the old three-pair here, with
ethernet cables. Do not have measuring calipers to had, but
I would guess that the ethernet cables are at least 3x
thicker than two-pair phone wire.
Steve Fryatt
Nov 22, 2021, 6:55:04 PM11/22/21
to
In message <598f7292...@russellhafter.me.invalid>
With a filtered faceplate on the master socket, you take one pair from the
"incoming" side of the filter (usually green) and the usual filtered pair
plus ring from the other. That way, the existing domestic extensions on the
(usually) blue and orange pairs don't change at all, and don't need any
filters at the extension sockets. (It also means that you can't plug the
modem into a phone extension, but that's kind-of the point.)
> Presumably the phone cable still ends in an RJ11 socket?
That's usually how it's done. There's still one on the wall under the desk
here, even though the router is now in the other room, by the ONT, on the
other end of a length of CAT5. I suspect the other end is probably
disconnected in the master socket, though.
>> Such an installation will probably still use three-pair
>> phone wire, not CAT5, but it could depend on what cable
>> was to hand. Three-pair phone wire is surprisingly hard
>> to find in places like Homebase, and can't be used for
>> much else.
> Never seen three-pair phone wire (blue, orange and green) on
> sale anywhere, though the original extensions in this house
> are all three-pair. But I had never seen that until I moved
> into it.
Mine has all come from CPC or Farnell, I think.
> What was the point of the extra (green) pair? All the phone
> instructions, even when there were six terminals, always
> only referred to 4 wires.
I don't know -- maybe just "future expansion". It might have has a use in
PABX type setups?
These days, it's more commonly found not connected to the phone sockets but
carrying the unfiltered ADSL signal.
>> That said, RJ45 plug to UK phone socket adapters are a
>> common thing: in offices (before the days of IP phones),
>> you'd just plug the phones into spare network drops and
>> patch the end in the comms room back to the PABX
>> accordingly.
> Again, never seen RJ45 to BT adaptors, only RJ11 socket to
> BT plug.
They're an "office" thing, I think. Every place I've worked with
"traditional" phones has used them, so that the phone wiring to desks can be
done over a second network drop -- which simplifies the cabling a lot.
That said, I've not seen such a phone in an office for many years, either --
it's all IP or DECT (or Teams Calling, these days).
Russell Hafter News <see...@russellhafter.me.invalid> wrote:
> In article
> <mpro.r2y4ql07...@stevefryatt.org.uk>, Steve
> Fryatt <ne...@stevefryatt.org.uk> wrote:
>
>> Many people have run a new AB pair from the unfiltered
>> side of a filtered master socket, specifically for ADSL
>> -- that way, all of the old phone extensions can be
>> filtered at the master socket, and there's no need for
>> filters on each phone.
> I have never heard of that one! I thought that you had to
> use CAT5 for the ADSL side.
It's just a phone cable, so no: any twisted pair should be fine.
> <mpro.r2y4ql07...@stevefryatt.org.uk>, Steve
> Fryatt <ne...@stevefryatt.org.uk> wrote:
>
>> Many people have run a new AB pair from the unfiltered
>> side of a filtered master socket, specifically for ADSL
>> -- that way, all of the old phone extensions can be
>> filtered at the master socket, and there's no need for
>> filters on each phone.
> I have never heard of that one! I thought that you had to
> use CAT5 for the ADSL side.
With a filtered faceplate on the master socket, you take one pair from the
"incoming" side of the filter (usually green) and the usual filtered pair
plus ring from the other. That way, the existing domestic extensions on the
(usually) blue and orange pairs don't change at all, and don't need any
filters at the extension sockets. (It also means that you can't plug the
modem into a phone extension, but that's kind-of the point.)
> Presumably the phone cable still ends in an RJ11 socket?
here, even though the router is now in the other room, by the ONT, on the
other end of a length of CAT5. I suspect the other end is probably
disconnected in the master socket, though.
>> Such an installation will probably still use three-pair
>> phone wire, not CAT5, but it could depend on what cable
>> was to hand. Three-pair phone wire is surprisingly hard
>> to find in places like Homebase, and can't be used for
>> much else.
> Never seen three-pair phone wire (blue, orange and green) on
> sale anywhere, though the original extensions in this house
> are all three-pair. But I had never seen that until I moved
> into it.
> What was the point of the extra (green) pair? All the phone
> instructions, even when there were six terminals, always
> only referred to 4 wires.
PABX type setups?
These days, it's more commonly found not connected to the phone sockets but
carrying the unfiltered ADSL signal.
>> That said, RJ45 plug to UK phone socket adapters are a
>> common thing: in offices (before the days of IP phones),
>> you'd just plug the phones into spare network drops and
>> patch the end in the comms room back to the PABX
>> accordingly.
> Again, never seen RJ45 to BT adaptors, only RJ11 socket to
> BT plug.
"traditional" phones has used them, so that the phone wiring to desks can be
done over a second network drop -- which simplifies the cabling a lot.
That said, I've not seen such a phone in an office for many years, either --
it's all IP or DECT (or Teams Calling, these days).
Dave
Nov 23, 2021, 3:00:22 AM11/23/21
to
This has been an interesting thread, and I'm now illuminated...
So thanks for that.
Having read here and done some reading online, it has become apparent that
as per usual the BT implimentation of this major change is somewhat of a
farce...
[Self edited the rest]...
Dave
--
Dave Triffid
So thanks for that.
Having read here and done some reading online, it has become apparent that
as per usual the BT implimentation of this major change is somewhat of a
farce...
[Self edited the rest]...
Dave
--
Dave Triffid
David Higton
Nov 23, 2021, 9:45:59 AM11/23/21
to
In message <598e500...@davenoise.co.uk>
> What I'm not clear about is whether an existing old style phone -
> completely powered off the phone line - will still work and ring.
I don't understand why you should imagine it won't. The analogue
telephone interface is well specified in this country. Everything
sold has to comply.
However, just for you, I dug out an old telephone (Mybelle Spotlight
753), with a mechanical ringer and REN of 1.5. I had to work my way
through numerous cables to find one that worked - it needs 4 cores
wired - but incoming calls produced a brisk ringing sound from the
bell, after an initial "ting", and the audio worked. The rubbish
audio quality is entirely the fault of the crap design of the phone's
electronics. Evidently designed before any EMC regulations came into
force.
I hope this calms your fears.
David
> What I'm not clear about is whether an existing old style phone -
> completely powered off the phone line - will still work and ring.
I don't understand why you should imagine it won't. The analogue
telephone interface is well specified in this country. Everything
sold has to comply.
However, just for you, I dug out an old telephone (Mybelle Spotlight
753), with a mechanical ringer and REN of 1.5. I had to work my way
through numerous cables to find one that worked - it needs 4 cores
wired - but incoming calls produced a brisk ringing sound from the
bell, after an initial "ting", and the audio worked. The rubbish
audio quality is entirely the fault of the crap design of the phone's
electronics. Evidently designed before any EMC regulations came into
force.
I hope this calms your fears.
David
Chris Craig
Nov 26, 2021, 12:52:11 PM11/26/21
to
In message <598c28c...@triffid.co.uk>
Dave <da...@triffid.co.uk> wrote:
> Thanks folks for the general notes, and thanks Theo for the links, most
> useful.
> Dave
Is the connection between the ONT an ethernet one, Can I use "wall plugs"
like Netgear?
My old phone has a switch labelled MODE: P-E,T-E & T-TB( T-E in use) -
what's that all about.
My current Speed is 45.4 down & 15.8 up what does that say about my
connection
Chris
--
--
ch...@chriscraig.co.uk
ARMX6 RISC OS 5.27
Dave <da...@triffid.co.uk> wrote:
> Thanks folks for the general notes, and thanks Theo for the links, most
> useful.
> Dave
Is the connection between the ONT an ethernet one, Can I use "wall plugs"
like Netgear?
My old phone has a switch labelled MODE: P-E,T-E & T-TB( T-E in use) -
what's that all about.
My current Speed is 45.4 down & 15.8 up what does that say about my
connection
Chris
--
--
ch...@chriscraig.co.uk
ARMX6 RISC OS 5.27
Martin
Nov 26, 2021, 2:44:06 PM11/26/21
to
In article <087d899159...@btinternet.com>,
But I suspect a wired connection would be better and more reliable.
Sime devices are 'wifi extenders' which tend to halve the speed.
Some transmit ethernet over the mains, which may work.
Whatever your internet speed is, and likk needs to be more than that,
and duplex (ie work both ways simultaneously).
> My old phone has a switch labelled MODE: P-E,T-E & T-TB( T-E in
> use) - what's that all about.
No idea.
> My current Speed is 45.4 down & 15.8 up what does that say about my
> connection
It is probably a FTTC VDSL connection - possibly a 80mbis/s down and
20MB/s down link, but limited by the quality (length) of the copper
line from the cabinet, and your modem.
Chris Craig <ch...@chriscraig.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <598c28c...@triffid.co.uk>
> Dave <da...@triffid.co.uk> wrote:
> > Thanks folks for the general notes, and thanks Theo for the
> > links, most useful.
> > Dave
> Is the connection between the ONT an ethernet one, Can I use "wall
> plugs" like Netgear?
You will have to be more specific.
> In message <598c28c...@triffid.co.uk>
> Dave <da...@triffid.co.uk> wrote:
> > Thanks folks for the general notes, and thanks Theo for the
> > links, most useful.
> > Dave
> Is the connection between the ONT an ethernet one, Can I use "wall
> plugs" like Netgear?
But I suspect a wired connection would be better and more reliable.
Sime devices are 'wifi extenders' which tend to halve the speed.
Some transmit ethernet over the mains, which may work.
Whatever your internet speed is, and likk needs to be more than that,
and duplex (ie work both ways simultaneously).
> My old phone has a switch labelled MODE: P-E,T-E & T-TB( T-E in
> use) - what's that all about.
> My current Speed is 45.4 down & 15.8 up what does that say about my
> connection
20MB/s down link, but limited by the quality (length) of the copper
line from the cabinet, and your modem.
Dave
Nov 26, 2021, 3:59:38 PM11/26/21
to
In article <5991935d...@avisoft.f9.co.uk>,
<Quote>
"My internet router ended up in the kitchen where my cable enters and it's
connected to a homeplug; the gigabit switch in my study is connected to
another."
</Quote>
Dave
--
Dave Triffid
Martin <New...@avisoft.f9.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <087d899159...@btinternet.com>,
> Chris Craig <ch...@chriscraig.co.uk> wrote:
> > In message <598c28c...@triffid.co.uk>
> > Dave <da...@triffid.co.uk> wrote:
> > > Thanks folks for the general notes, and thanks Theo for the
> > > links, most useful.
> > > Dave
> > Is the connection between the ONT an ethernet one, Can I use "wall
> > plugs" like Netgear?
> You will have to be more specific.
> But I suspect a wired connection would be better and more reliable.
> Sime devices are 'wifi extenders' which tend to halve the speed.
> Some transmit ethernet over the mains, which may work.
> Whatever your internet speed is, and likk needs to be more than that,
> and duplex (ie work both ways simultaneously).
> > My old phone has a switch labelled MODE: P-E,T-E & T-TB( T-E in
> > use) - what's that all about.
> No idea.
> > My current Speed is 45.4 down & 15.8 up what does that say about my
> > connection
> It is probably a FTTC VDSL connection - possibly a 80mbis/s down and
> 20MB/s down link, but limited by the quality (length) of the copper
> line from the cabinet, and your modem.
I think Tim Hill noted something about this recently...
> In article <087d899159...@btinternet.com>,
> Chris Craig <ch...@chriscraig.co.uk> wrote:
> > In message <598c28c...@triffid.co.uk>
> > Dave <da...@triffid.co.uk> wrote:
> > > Thanks folks for the general notes, and thanks Theo for the
> > > links, most useful.
> > > Dave
> > Is the connection between the ONT an ethernet one, Can I use "wall
> > plugs" like Netgear?
> You will have to be more specific.
> But I suspect a wired connection would be better and more reliable.
> Sime devices are 'wifi extenders' which tend to halve the speed.
> Some transmit ethernet over the mains, which may work.
> Whatever your internet speed is, and likk needs to be more than that,
> and duplex (ie work both ways simultaneously).
> > My old phone has a switch labelled MODE: P-E,T-E & T-TB( T-E in
> > use) - what's that all about.
> No idea.
> > My current Speed is 45.4 down & 15.8 up what does that say about my
> > connection
> It is probably a FTTC VDSL connection - possibly a 80mbis/s down and
> 20MB/s down link, but limited by the quality (length) of the copper
> line from the cabinet, and your modem.
<Quote>
"My internet router ended up in the kitchen where my cable enters and it's
connected to a homeplug; the gigabit switch in my study is connected to
another."
</Quote>
Dave
--
Dave Triffid
Theo
Nov 26, 2021, 3:59:51 PM11/26/21
to
Chris Craig <ch...@chriscraig.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <598c28c...@triffid.co.uk>
> Dave <da...@triffid.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > Thanks folks for the general notes, and thanks Theo for the links, most
> > useful.
>
> > Dave
>
> Is the connection between the ONT an ethernet one, Can I use "wall plugs"
> like Netgear?
It's ethernet, so in theory you can use homeplugs. However it's point to
> In message <598c28c...@triffid.co.uk>
> Dave <da...@triffid.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > Thanks folks for the general notes, and thanks Theo for the links, most
> > useful.
>
> > Dave
>
> Is the connection between the ONT an ethernet one, Can I use "wall plugs"
> like Netgear?
point ethernet, because the signal needs to go through a router before you
distribute it to your computers. You can set homeplugs to act as that point
to point link, but just so you're aware you can't hook in other computers,
unless you have a second homeplug to reinject after the router (ie running
two separate homeplug networks).
Also be aware that homeplugs are unlikely to allow you the full FTTP
bandwidth, very much depending on your home wiring setup. Doubly so if
you're using that link for connections both before and after your router.
I'd recommend running an ethernet wire if you can, or there is also MoCA if
you have good quality TV cabling available (I got gigabit for FTTP using
this).
> My old phone has a switch labelled MODE: P-E,T-E & T-TB( T-E in use) -
> what's that all about.
and 'TB' are.
> My current Speed is 45.4 down & 15.8 up what does that say about my
> connection
Theo
Theo
Nov 26, 2021, 4:50:59 PM11/26/21
to
Theo <theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
https://www.britishtelephones.com/glossary.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hook_flash
If the phone has a 'recall' button it may affect how it operates, but won't
matter otherwise.
Theo
> Chris Craig <ch...@chriscraig.co.uk> wrote:
> > My old phone has a switch labelled MODE: P-E,T-E & T-TB( T-E in use) -
> > what's that all about.
>
> Possibly 'P' = pulse dialling, 'T' = tone dialling. I'm not sure what 'E'
> and 'TB' are.
Ah, I wonder if 'TB' is 'timed break recall' and 'E' is 'earth recall':
> > My old phone has a switch labelled MODE: P-E,T-E & T-TB( T-E in use) -
> > what's that all about.
>
> Possibly 'P' = pulse dialling, 'T' = tone dialling. I'm not sure what 'E'
> and 'TB' are.
https://www.britishtelephones.com/glossary.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hook_flash
If the phone has a 'recall' button it may affect how it operates, but won't
matter otherwise.
Theo
Chris Craig
Nov 26, 2021, 5:24:50 PM11/26/21
to
In message <087d899159...@btinternet.com>
"error:Failed news posting <NewsHound$NewsDir>.badmarker.8b46799059"
This has been a persistant error for several years. The only solution is
to use a none bt SMTP
Chris Craig <ch...@chriscraig.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <598c28c...@triffid.co.uk>
> Dave <da...@triffid.co.uk> wrote:
>> Thanks folks for the general notes, and thanks Theo for the links, most
>> useful.
>> Dave
> Is the connection between the ONT an ethernet one, Can I use "wall plugs"
> like Netgear?
> My old phone has a switch labelled MODE: P-E,T-E & T-TB( T-E in use) -
> what's that all about.
> My current Speed is 45.4 down & 15.8 up what does that say about my
> connection
> Chris
Frustratingly when I try to post here from my BT address I get the
> In message <598c28c...@triffid.co.uk>
> Dave <da...@triffid.co.uk> wrote:
>> Thanks folks for the general notes, and thanks Theo for the links, most
>> useful.
>> Dave
> Is the connection between the ONT an ethernet one, Can I use "wall plugs"
> like Netgear?
> My old phone has a switch labelled MODE: P-E,T-E & T-TB( T-E in use) -
> what's that all about.
> My current Speed is 45.4 down & 15.8 up what does that say about my
> connection
> Chris
"error:Failed news posting <NewsHound$NewsDir>.badmarker.8b46799059"
This has been a persistant error for several years. The only solution is
to use a none bt SMTP
Martin
Nov 26, 2021, 6:22:12 PM11/26/21
to
In article <59919a8...@triffid.co.uk>,
Yes, that is common on the LAN side of your network.
But I thought we were talking about the WAN side connection between
the ONT (modem) and the router? This is possibly more critical ... but
modern homeplugs etc may be up to the job.
Note that the term router is often used for a combined modem & router
for ADSL/VDSL, but not for FTTP as the modem is generally the fibre
provider.
But I thought we were talking about the WAN side connection between
the ONT (modem) and the router? This is possibly more critical ... but
modern homeplugs etc may be up to the job.
Note that the term router is often used for a combined modem & router
for ADSL/VDSL, but not for FTTP as the modem is generally the fibre
provider.
Brian Howlett
Nov 26, 2021, 8:35:13 PM11/26/21
to
On 26 Nov, Chris Craig <ch...@chriscraig.co.uk> wrote:
> My old phone has a switch labelled MODE: P-E,T-E & T-TB( T-E in use) -
> what's that all about.
A quick search came up with this -
> My old phone has a switch labelled MODE: P-E,T-E & T-TB( T-E in use) -
> what's that all about.
There are 3 dial mode settings. Tone/Timed break (TB), Tone/Earth (TE) and
Pulse/Earth (P).
Pulse is the old fashioned way of sending a pulse down the line to emulate
a dial when using a push-button phone and I very much doubt any UK
telephone exchanges still use it, BICBW.
--
Brian Howlett - Email to From: address deleted unseen
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Foolproof method for sculpting an elephant: 1. get a huge block
of marble. 2. chip away everything that doesn't look like an elephant.
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