Plusnet and triplicate emails

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Chris Evans (CJE/4D)

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Apr 20, 2022, 6:22:49 AMApr 20
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Is there anyone here who uses plusnet as an ISP, getting three copies of
each emails sent to them?

We use XenCentric as a domain hoster and PlusNet as an ISP and for the last
four weeks when XenCentric tries forwarding our emails to Plusnet they error
so xencentric retries but they actually are getting through each time.

Anyone else using XenCentric as a domain hoster and PlusNet as an ISP?

PlusNet say they don't have a problem with other people forwarding and
XenCentric have no problem with other ISPs and have sent me the logs below
showing the PlusNet error.

I eventually persuaded plusnet to report the fault to the netops team (They
opened a ticket but did nothing until I chased them, maybe they were hoping
the problem would just go away!) by the time they investigated they said the
info was too old and they are being sent three copies, the last request is
for a set of recent emails with headers.

I've told them:
Asking for the email headers again demonstrates that they have fundamentally
misunderstood the problem. YES my hoster sends the emails THREE times BUT it
is because your servers is FALSELY reporting an error each time, when it has
actually successfully received them, that is the issue. (Another set of
emails with headers will provide no information about the errors from your
server) It is the logs from my hoster that are the thing they need to be
looking at. Please confirm they have copies of the two logs from my hoster
previously sent.

XenCentric Logs:

2022-03-28 10:31:25 1nYlib-000ABQ-UX SMTP connection outbound 1648459885
1nYlib-000ABQ-UX cjemicros.co.uk p...@cjemicros.plus.com
2022-03-28 10:31:26 1nYlib-000ABQ-UX H=mx.core.plus.net [212.159.9.1]:
Remote host closed connection in response to end of data
2022-03-28 10:31:26 1nYlib-000ABQ-UX H=mx.core.plus.net [212.159.8.1]:
Remote host closed connection in response to end of data
2022-03-28 10:31:26 1nYlib-000ABQ-UX == p...@cjemicros.plus.com
(p...@cjemicros.co.uk) <p...@cjemicros.co.uk> R=dkim_lookuphost
T=dkim_remote_smtp defer (-18) H=mx.core.plus.net [212.159.8.1]: Remote
host closed connection in response to end of data

and

Some more logs from today below

Our server tries the two MX records for mx.core.plus.net until one
accepts the email. The first two attempts always seen to fail, but
there's no further information on why this is.

2022-04-13 15:44:55 1neeEk-000DvR-VR SMTP connection identification
D=cjemicros.co.uk O=ch...@cjemicros.co.ukE=cc...@cjemicros.plus.com
M=1neeEk-000DvR-VR U=cjemscou ID=1056 B=redirect_resolver
2022-04-13 15:44:55 1neeEk-000DvR-VR Sender identification U=cjemscou
D=cjemicros.co.uk S=ch...@cjemicros.co.uk
2022-04-13 15:44:55 1neeEk-000DvR-VR SMTP connection outbound 1649861095
1neeEk-000DvR-VR cjemicros.co.uk cc...@cjemicros.plus.com
2022-04-13 15:44:55 1neeEk-000DvR-VR H=mx.core.plus.net [212.159.8.1]:
Remote host closed connection in response to end of data
2022-04-13 15:44:55 1neeEk-000DvR-VR H=mx.core.plus.net [212.159.9.1]:
Remote host closed connection in response to end of data
2022-04-13 15:44:55 1neeEk-000DvR-VR == cc...@cjemicros.plus.com
(ch...@cjemicros.co.uk) <ch...@cjemicros.co.uk> R=dkim_lookuphost
T=dkim_remote_smtp defer (-18) H=mx.core.plus.net [212.159.9.1]: Remote
host closed connection in response to end of data

(our server then waits for 20 minutes and tries again)
2022-04-13 16:24:00 1neeEk-000DvR-VR SMTP connection identification
D=cjemicros.co.uk O=ch...@cjemicros.co.ukE=cc...@cjemicros.plus.com
M=1neeEk-000DvR-VR U=cjemscou ID=1056 B=redirect_resolver
2022-04-13 16:24:00 1neeEk-000DvR-VR Sender identification U=cjemscou
D=cjemicros.co.uk S=ch...@cjemicros.co.uk
2022-04-13 16:24:00 1neeEk-000DvR-VR => cc...@cjemicros.plus.com
(ch...@cjemicros.co.uk) <ch...@cjemicros.co.uk>
SRS=<SRS0=9qMRml=UX=keith-sanchez.com=ab...@cjemicros.co.uk>
R=dkim_lookuphost T=dkim_remote_smtp H=mx.core.plus.net [212.159.9.1]
C="250 OK id=1neeqe-0003AE-IG"
2022-04-13 16:24:00 1neeEk-000DvR-VR Completed

Any comments


Chris Evans

--

****** IGEPv5: The fastest RISC OS computer so far! *******
------------ http://www.cjemicros.co.uk/igepv5 ------------
CJE Micro's 'Raspberry Pi & RISC OS Specialists'
Tel: +44 (0)1903 523222
ch...@cjemicros.co.uk http://www.cjemicros.co.uk/
Unit 16 Arunside Ind. Est., Fort Road, Littlehampton, W.Sussex BN17 7QU

Don't let the urgent things in life, crowd out the important things!

Chris Hughes

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Apr 20, 2022, 7:31:58 AMApr 20
to
In message <ant20090...@client.cjemicros.co.uk>
"Chris Evans (CJE/4D)" <ch...@cjemicros.co.uk> wrote:

> Is there anyone here who uses plusnet as an ISP, getting three copies of
> each emails sent to them?

> We use XenCentric as a domain hoster and PlusNet as an ISP and for the last
> four weeks when XenCentric tries forwarding our emails to Plusnet they error
> so xencentric retries but they actually are getting through each time.

> Anyone else using XenCentric as a domain hoster and PlusNet as an ISP?

I used to do this with my personal domain, not anymore.

> PlusNet say they don't have a problem with other people forwarding and
> XenCentric have no problem with other ISPs and have sent me the logs below
> showing the PlusNet error.

Hmm I suspect the issue might be at your end. I note you are still using
the rather old ANT Marcel for your emails. I don't think ANT supports
secure connections. PlusNet now recommend you use secure connections for
security.

> I eventually persuaded plusnet to report the fault to the netops team (They
> opened a ticket but did nothing until I chased them, maybe they were hoping
> the problem would just go away!) by the time they investigated they said the
> info was too old and they are being sent three copies, the last request is
> for a set of recent emails with headers.

They need the headers from the email you are sending so they can follow
the email trail through the various servers between you and them, headers
can also reveal other info in there investigation.

> I've told them:
> Asking for the email headers again demonstrates that they have fundamentally
> misunderstood the problem. YES my hoster sends the emails THREE times BUT it
> is because your servers is FALSELY reporting an error each time, when it has
> actually successfully received them, that is the issue. (Another set of
> emails with headers will provide no information about the errors from your
> server) It is the logs from my hoster that are the thing they need to be
> looking at. Please confirm they have copies of the two logs from my hoster
> previously sent.

Header information will give them info on times for instance so they can
look at their server logs as to why they are erroring.

> XenCentric Logs:


[snip]

>

> Our server tries the two MX records for mx.core.plus.net until one
> accepts the email. The first two attempts always seen to fail, but
> there's no further information on why this is.

[snip]

>
> 2022-04-13 16:24:00 1neeEk-000DvR-VR => cc...@cjemicros.plus.com
> (ch...@cjemicros.co.uk) <ch...@cjemicros.co.uk>
> SRS=<SRS0=9qMRml=UX=keith-sanchez.com=ab...@cjemicros.co.uk>
> R=dkim_lookuphost T=dkim_remote_smtp H=mx.core.plus.net [212.159.9.1]
> C="250 OK id=1neeqe-0003AE-IG"
> 2022-04-13 16:24:00 1neeEk-000DvR-VR Completed

Intrigued by this entry - what has keith-sanchez.com got to do with
cjemircos.co.uk

Personally as you are a business I would forget PlusNet for your email
and send and receive your emails direct from your Domain rather then
forwarding everything to/from Plusnet

With lots of checks now with SPF, DKIM, DMARC to verify who the sending is
etc.

Plusnet have been reviewing on continuing keeping their own email servers
after the major incident last year.

Just seen PlusNet seem to have major problems with Email with SMTP
failures showing in my logs morning again.


--
Chris Hughes
Don't miss this years Wakefield Show 21st May 2022 - we have moved to
Cedar Court Hotel, Bradford
Check the latest information at www.wakefieldshow.org.uk

Chris Evans (CJE/4D)

unread,
Apr 20, 2022, 10:26:53 AMApr 20
to
In article <0f1810dc...@mytarbis.plus.com>, Chris Hughes
<URL:mailto:new...@noonehere.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <ant20090...@client.cjemicros.co.uk>
> "Chris Evans (CJE/4D)" <ch...@cjemicros.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > Is there anyone here who uses plusnet as an ISP, getting three copies of
> > each emails sent to them?
>
> > We use XenCentric as a domain hoster and PlusNet as an ISP and for the last
> > four weeks when XenCentric tries forwarding our emails to Plusnet they error
> > so xencentric retries but they actually are getting through each time.
>
> > Anyone else using XenCentric as a domain hoster and PlusNet as an ISP?
>
> I used to do this with my personal domain, not anymore.
>
> > PlusNet say they don't have a problem with other people forwarding and
> > XenCentric have no problem with other ISPs and have sent me the logs below
> > showing the PlusNet error.
>
> Hmm I suspect the issue might be at your end. I note you are still using
> the rather old ANT Marcel for your emails. I don't think ANT supports
> secure connections. PlusNet now recommend you use secure connections for
> security.

I think you misunderstand this has nothing to do with the email client
The duplicates are visible if I view undownloaded emails via webmail and it
is happening on all email addresses we use including those running Windows
10 email clients.

The logs show the fault is when XenCentric servers cummunicate with the PlusNet
servers

> > I eventually persuaded plusnet to report the fault to the netops team (They
> > opened a ticket but did nothing until I chased them, maybe they were hoping
> > the problem would just go away!) by the time they investigated they said the
> > info was too old and they are being sent three copies, the last request is
> > for a set of recent emails with headers.
>
> They need the headers from the email you are sending so they can follow
> the email trail through the various servers between you and them, headers
> can also reveal other info in there investigation.

They would be useful on many occasions but as the fault is when XenCentric
servers cummunicate with PlusNet it is the server logs that show the error.

> > I've told them:
> > Asking for the email headers again demonstrates that they have fundamentally
> > misunderstood the problem. YES my hoster sends the emails THREE times BUT it
> > is because your servers is FALSELY reporting an error each time, when it has
> > actually successfully received them, that is the issue. (Another set of
> > emails with headers will provide no information about the errors from your
> > server) It is the logs from my hoster that are the thing they need to be
> > looking at. Please confirm they have copies of the two logs from my hoster
> > previously sent.
>
> Header information will give them info on times for instance so they can
> look at their server logs as to why they are erroring.

As does the logs Neil has provided.

I did send another set of emails with headers just so they couldn't use that
as an excuse.

> > XenCentric Logs:
>
>
> [snip]
>
> >
>
> > Our server tries the two MX records for mx.core.plus.net until one
> > accepts the email. The first two attempts always seen to fail, but
> > there's no further information on why this is.
>
> [snip]
>
> >
> > 2022-04-13 16:24:00 1neeEk-000DvR-VR => cc...@cjemicros.plus.com
> > (ch...@cjemicros.co.uk) <ch...@cjemicros.co.uk>
> > SRS=<SRS0=9qMRml=UX=keith-sanchez.com=ab...@cjemicros.co.uk>
> > R=dkim_lookuphost T=dkim_remote_smtp H=mx.core.plus.net [212.159.9.1]
> > C="250 OK id=1neeqe-0003AE-IG"
> > 2022-04-13 16:24:00 1neeEk-000DvR-VR Completed
>
> Intrigued by this entry - what has keith-sanchez.com got to do with
> cjemircos.co.uk

No idea

> Personally as you are a business I would forget PlusNet for your email
> and send and receive your emails direct from your Domain rather then
> forwarding everything to/from Plusnet
>
> With lots of checks now with SPF, DKIM, DMARC to verify who the sending is
> etc.
>
> Plusnet have been reviewing on continuing keeping their own email servers
> after the major incident last year.
>
> Just seen PlusNet seem to have major problems with Email with SMTP
> failures showing in my logs morning again.

:-/

Chris Hughes

unread,
Apr 20, 2022, 12:01:55 PMApr 20
to
In message <ant20140...@client.cjemicros.co.uk>
"Chris Evans (CJE/4D)" <ch...@cjemicros.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <0f1810dc...@mytarbis.plus.com>, Chris Hughes
> <URL:mailto:new...@noonehere.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <ant20090...@client.cjemicros.co.uk>
>> "Chris Evans (CJE/4D)" <ch...@cjemicros.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> Is there anyone here who uses plusnet as an ISP, getting three copies of
>>> each emails sent to them?
>>
>>> We use XenCentric as a domain hoster and PlusNet as an ISP and for the last
>>> four weeks when XenCentric tries forwarding our emails to Plusnet they
>>> error
>>> so xencentric retries but they actually are getting through each time.
>>
>>> Anyone else using XenCentric as a domain hoster and PlusNet as an ISP?
>>
>> I used to do this with my personal domain, not anymore.
>>
>>> PlusNet say they don't have a problem with other people forwarding and
>>> XenCentric have no problem with other ISPs and have sent me the logs below
>>> showing the PlusNet error.
>>
>> Hmm I suspect the issue might be at your end. I note you are still using
>> the rather old ANT Marcel for your emails. I don't think ANT supports
>> secure connections. PlusNet now recommend you use secure connections for
>> security.

> I think you misunderstand this has nothing to do with the email client
> The duplicates are visible if I view undownloaded emails via webmail and it
> is happening on all email addresses we use including those running Windows
> 10 email clients.

Noted.


[snip]

>>>
>>
>> Header information will give them info on times for instance so they can
>> look at their server logs as to why they are erroring.

> As does the logs Neil has provided.

> I did send another set of emails with headers just so they couldn't use that
> as an excuse.

Ok, lets hope they find whatever is the cause,


>>> 2022-04-13 16:24:00 1neeEk-000DvR-VR => cc...@cjemicros.plus.com
>>> (ch...@cjemicros.co.uk) <ch...@cjemicros.co.uk>
>>> SRS=<SRS0=9qMRml=UX=keith-sanchez.com=ab...@cjemicros.co.uk>
>>> R=dkim_lookuphost T=dkim_remote_smtp H=mx.core.plus.net [212.159.9.1]
>>> C="250 OK id=1neeqe-0003AE-IG"
>>> 2022-04-13 16:24:00 1neeEk-000DvR-VR Completed
>>
>> Intrigued by this entry - what has keith-sanchez.com got to do with
>> cjemircos.co.uk

> No idea

Might be worth asking Neil @ Xencentric about that oddity.

>> Personally as you are a business I would forget PlusNet for your email
>> and send and receive your emails direct from your Domain rather then
>> forwarding everything to/from Plusnet

I still think would be the best option for the future for CJEMicro's, it
cuts out the PlusNet servers in your case.


>>
>> Just seen PlusNet seem to have major problems with Email with SMTP
>> failures showing in my logs morning again.

Their SMTP servers now seem to be working again.

Richard Darby (news)

unread,
Apr 20, 2022, 3:29:15 PMApr 20
to
In article <ant20090...@client.cjemicros.co.uk>,
Chris Evans (CJE/4D) <ch...@cjemicros.co.uk> wrote:
> Is there anyone here who uses plusnet as an ISP, getting three copies of
> each emails sent to them?

> We use XenCentric as a domain hoster and PlusNet as an ISP and for the
> last four weeks when XenCentric tries forwarding our emails to Plusnet
> they error so xencentric retries but they actually are getting through
> each time.

> Anyone else using XenCentric as a domain hoster and PlusNet as an ISP?

I have two domains hosted by Xencentric and use Plusnet as my ISP.
However I don't try to do what you are doing. I download email directly
from the Xencentric domains and send email via the appropriate Xencentric
SMTP servers thus avoiding DMARC etc problems. Multiple accounts and
multiple SMTP servers are easily set up via Hermes.

I don't actually use my Plusnet email for much in fact I only have one
forwarder set up to forward the weekly money saving expert information
email. Which reminds me that I haven't received today's issue, so
something is wrong there.

Richard Darby.

--

Richard Darby.
website: http://www.rjdarby.co.uk
Do not reply to this address all mail is deleted.
Reply to: <my first name> at <my domain>

druck

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Apr 20, 2022, 4:18:55 PMApr 20
to
On 20/04/2022 10:44, Chris Evans (CJE/4D) wrote:
> Is there anyone here who uses plusnet as an ISP, getting three copies of
> each emails sent to them?

Not happening on PlusNet with email forwarded from my own domain hosted
by SimplyNames or NamesCo as it is these days.

> We use XenCentric as a domain hoster and PlusNet as an ISP and for the last
> four weeks when XenCentric tries forwarding our emails to Plusnet they error
> so xencentric retries but they actually are getting through each time.

Sounds like some blacklist issue between XenCentric and PlusNet. Raise
tickets and let them fight it out amongst themselves.

---druck

Mik Towse

unread,
Apr 21, 2022, 7:16:38 AMApr 21
to
In article <ant20090...@client.cjemicros.co.uk>,
> Chris Evans (CJE/4D) <ch...@cjemicros.co.uk> wrote:
> Is there anyone here who uses plusnet as an ISP, getting three copies of
> each emails sent to them?
>
> We use XenCentric as a domain hoster and PlusNet as an ISP and for the
> last four weeks when XenCentric tries forwarding our emails to Plusnet
> they error so xencentric retries but they actually are getting through
> each time.
>
> Anyone else using XenCentric as a domain hoster and PlusNet as an ISP?
I've been following this thread, but I must confess I don't understand the
issue.

I use Plusnet as my ISP, but they have no involvement in my email delivery
process other than being the conduit through which I access my email accounts
on my many domains.

It seems to me, that you have set up a forwarder to send emails from your XC
mailboxes to your Plusnet mailbox? If this is the case, why would you do this
rather than log in to those mailboxes directly?

At one time I had an email address set ip on a domain to forward to my main
address, but emails were disappearing. It turned out that the mail system
didn't forward emails from a blacklisted domain, it simply dropped them. If
there had been a mailbox those messaes would have been delivered to the Spam
folder on that mailbox.

Since it's easy to set up MPro to access multiple mailboxes, I created a new
mailbox, removed the forwarding and problem was solved.

Of course, this may not be relevant, but I'm hoping my experience will give
you an insight into what is happening.

--
Mik Towse * mik....@xemik.com * http://www.xemik.co.uk/
My writers' site can be found at: http://www.lexis.org.uk

xemik.net - cost effective web hosting : http://xemik.net

For as long as I can remember, I've had amnesia.

Chris Hughes

unread,
Apr 21, 2022, 9:49:52 AMApr 21
to
In message <59DC913C28%mik....@xemik.com>
Mik Towse <m...@towse.org.uk> wrote:

> In article <ant20090...@client.cjemicros.co.uk>,
>> Chris Evans (CJE/4D) <ch...@cjemicros.co.uk> wrote:
>> Is there anyone here who uses plusnet as an ISP, getting three copies of
>> each emails sent to them?
>>
>> We use XenCentric as a domain hoster and PlusNet as an ISP and for the
>> last four weeks when XenCentric tries forwarding our emails to Plusnet
>> they error so xencentric retries but they actually are getting through
>> each time.
>>
>> Anyone else using XenCentric as a domain hoster and PlusNet as an ISP?
> I've been following this thread, but I must confess I don't understand the
> issue.

> I use Plusnet as my ISP, but they have no involvement in my email delivery
> process other than being the conduit through which I access my email accounts
> on my many domains.

This is what I do nowadays myself and suggested this would be a better
option for Chris @CJEMicros

> It seems to me, that you have set up a forwarder to send emails from your XC
> mailboxes to your Plusnet mailbox? If this is the case, why would you do this
> rather than log in to those mailboxes directly?

Indeed it seems that is what he is doing

Chris Evans (CJE/4D)

unread,
Apr 22, 2022, 10:54:08 AMApr 22
to
In article <59DC913C28%mik....@xemik.com>, Mik Towse
<URL:mailto:m...@towse.org.uk> wrote:
> In article <ant20090...@client.cjemicros.co.uk>,
> > Chris Evans (CJE/4D) <ch...@cjemicros.co.uk> wrote:
> > Is there anyone here who uses plusnet as an ISP, getting three copies of
> > each emails sent to them?
> >
> > We use XenCentric as a domain hoster and PlusNet as an ISP and for the
> > last four weeks when XenCentric tries forwarding our emails to Plusnet
> > they error so xencentric retries but they actually are getting through
> > each time.
> >
> > Anyone else using XenCentric as a domain hoster and PlusNet as an ISP?
> I've been following this thread, but I must confess I don't understand the
> issue.
>
> I use Plusnet as my ISP, but they have no involvement in my email delivery
> process other than being the conduit through which I access my email accounts
> on my many domains.
>
> It seems to me, that you have set up a forwarder to send emails from your XC
> mailboxes to your Plusnet mailbox? If this is the case, why would you do this
> rather than log in to those mailboxes directly?

When we started using a hoster many years ago the common (recommended?) way
was to forward to your ISP. Also we only get 10 mailboxes[1] at xencentric
but unlimited email forwarders. So we'd have change things quite a bit and
it will probably cost us more.

Currently I just don't have the time to make changes like that. I used
to say I hope to semi-retire to 40 hours a week when I'm 50, I now need to
revise that to when I'm 70!

[1] I could prune the 25 odd email address we use but 10 would be difficult

> At one time I had an email address set ip on a domain to forward to my main
> address, but emails were disappearing. It turned out that the mail system
> didn't forward emails from a blacklisted domain, it simply dropped them. If
> there had been a mailbox those messaes would have been delivered to the Spam
> folder on that mailbox.
>
> Since it's easy to set up MPro to access multiple mailboxes, I created a new
> mailbox, removed the forwarding and problem was solved.
>
> Of course, this may not be relevant, but I'm hoping my experience will give
> you an insight into what is happening.

All information is welcome.

Theo

unread,
Apr 22, 2022, 4:56:57 PMApr 22
to
"Chris Evans (CJE/4D)" <ch...@cjemicros.co.uk> wrote:
> When we started using a hoster many years ago the common (recommended?) way
> was to forward to your ISP. Also we only get 10 mailboxes[1] at xencentric
> but unlimited email forwarders. So we'd have change things quite a bit and
> it will probably cost us more.
>
> Currently I just don't have the time to make changes like that. I used
> to say I hope to semi-retire to 40 hours a week when I'm 50, I now need to
> revise that to when I'm 70!
>
> [1] I could prune the 25 odd email address we use but 10 would be difficult

One thing to be aware of is that mail delivery is increasingly unreliable if
you aren't sending from the approved mailserver for your domain. With DKIM,
DMARC and SPF a domain can register which server(s) are legitimately sources
of email @that-domain. If the mail comes from a different server the
recipient may decide it's spam. This is particularly a problem with
Microsoft servers (@outlook.com, @hotmail.com but also a large number of
companies and ISPs who outsource their email to Microsoft) who have very
aggressive spam filters. I set up a test Outlook mailbox and everything
sent from my normal email system (where I set the From: address to be my
domain) dropped straight into the Spam folder.

If you have a home-cooked forwarding setup, you can't just forge headers by
setting your From: address to be your domain any more - you need to be
sending email from a server registered in your domain's DNS. Since your ISP
probably doesn't want to get involved with this, at the very least you need
to ensure you're sending from your mail hosts SMTP server, rather than your
ISP's server. Doing it for receiving is currently OK, but you have to make
sure replies go via the right server (so forwarding multiple domains into a
single mailbox gets messy).

Basically the writing is on the wall for forwarding - I think it's going to
be increasingly untenable in future.

Theo

Richard Darby (news)

unread,
Apr 22, 2022, 5:22:17 PMApr 22
to
In article <ant22142...@client.cjemicros.co.uk>,
Chris Evans (CJE/4D) <ch...@cjemicros.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <59DC913C28%mik....@xemik.com>, Mik Towse
> <URL:mailto:m...@towse.org.uk> wrote:
> > In article <ant20090...@client.cjemicros.co.uk>,
> > > Chris Evans (CJE/4D) <ch...@cjemicros.co.uk> wrote: Is there
> > > anyone here who uses plusnet as an ISP, getting three copies of each
> > > emails sent to them?
> > >
> > > We use XenCentric as a domain hoster and PlusNet as an ISP and for
> > > the last four weeks when XenCentric tries forwarding our emails to
> > > Plusnet they error so xencentric retries but they actually are
> > > getting through each time.
> > >
> > > Anyone else using XenCentric as a domain hoster and PlusNet as an
> > > ISP?

[snip]

> When we started using a hoster many years ago the common (recommended?)
> way was to forward to your ISP. Also we only get 10 mailboxes[1] at
> xencentric but unlimited email forwarders. So we'd have change things
> quite a bit and it will probably cost us more.

> Currently I just don't have the time to make changes like that. I used
> to say I hope to semi-retire to 40 hours a week when I'm 50, I now need
> to revise that to when I'm 70!

> [1] I could prune the 25 odd email address we use but 10 would be
> difficult

[snip]

> All information is welcome.

You may not have thought of this, but 10 email boxes is more than enough.

Instead of forwarding your XenCentric addresses to your plusnet mailbox,
forward them to one or more of your 10 XC mailboxes, so when you download
your mail from XenCentric you get it all and then use Pluto/Messenger to
sort them out (by header info) into your email boxes.

I do this for one of my XenCentric domains.

Chris Evans (CJE/4D)

unread,
Apr 23, 2022, 8:32:14 AMApr 23
to
In article <PJg*Lw...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, Theo
Thanks very much for the info. I'll have to look into a long term solution
when time permits.

Russell Hafter News

unread,
Apr 23, 2022, 11:38:13 AMApr 23
to
In article <59dd423...@rjdarby.co.uk>, Richard Darby
(news) <ne...@rjdarby.co.uk> wrote:

> > All information is welcome.

> You may not have thought of this, but 10 email boxes is
> more than enough.

> Instead of forwarding your XenCentric addresses to your
> plusnet mailbox, forward them to one or more of your 10
> XC mailboxes, so when you download your mail from
> XenCentric you get it all and then use Pluto/Messenger to
> sort them out (by header info) into your email boxes.

These days I get by fine with just one xenCentric mailbox,
as I can have an unlimited number of aliases.

Until fairly recently I had my generic e-mail address, with
just a few aliases abcd@...me.uk, fghijkl@...me.uk,
rstuww@...me.uk etc,. plus a few others.

It is a simple matter to set things up at xenCentric so all
these aliases get delivered to your main mailbox.

Following a POP3 download, Pluto will then sort the e-mails
according to the aliases into the correct box within Pluto.

These days, though, I mainly usie Claws Mail under Windows
for e-mail, because it does IMAP, making life much easier
when looking at e-mail on a Windows netbook.

When using IMAP, you can set up various subfolders and then
use xenCentric' Control Panel to sort into the appropriate
place.

--
Russell
Russell Hafter
E-mail to russell at russellhafter dot me dot uk
Need a hotel? <http://www.hrs.com/?client=en__blue&customerId=416873103>
Friendly web hosting <https://www.xencentrichosting.uk/billing/aff.php?aff=7>

Mik Towse

unread,
Apr 24, 2022, 7:06:31 AMApr 24
to
In article <ant22142...@client.cjemicros.co.uk> Chris Evans (CJE/4D)
wrote:
> When we started using a hoster many years ago the common (recommended?) way
> was to forward to your ISP.
I've had my main domain since 1998 (when they cost a fortune!) and never
forwarded to my ISP.

> Also we only get 10 mailboxes[1] at xencentric but unlimited email
> forwarders.
The simplest, and how we do it, is set up the required email addresses on XC
and forward them to one of the XC mailboxes. Like us, XC allows unlimited
email alias addresses.

> So we'd have change things quite a bit and it will probably cost us more.
Not necessarily? ;)

> Currently I just don't have the time to make changes like that. I used
> to say I hope to semi-retire to 40 hours a week when I'm 50, I now need to
> revise that to when I'm 70!
>
> [1] I could prune the 25 odd email address we use but 10 would be difficult

[snip]
> > Since it's easy to set up MPro to access multiple mailboxes, I created a
> > new mailbox, removed the forwarding and problem was solved.
> >
> > Of course, this may not be relevant, but I'm hoping my experience will
> > give you an insight into what is happening.
> All information is welcome.
I made my suggestions on the assumption you were using somehing like
Messenger Pro, but it seems you are using Marcel. Might be worth considering
updating to a more modern RISC OS mail client?

HTH
Mik
--
Mik Towse * mik....@xemik.com * http://www.xemik.co.uk/
My writers' site can be found at: http://www.lexis.org.uk

xemik.net - cost effective web hosting : http://xemik.net

Anything free is worth what you pay for it

Chris Evans (CJE/4D)

unread,
Apr 25, 2022, 7:28:37 AMApr 25
to
In article <59DE1A98B0%mik....@xemik.com>, Mik Towse
<URL:mailto:m...@towse.org.uk> wrote:
> In article <ant22142...@client.cjemicros.co.uk> Chris Evans (CJE/4D)
> wrote:
> > When we started using a hoster many years ago the common (recommended?) way
> > was to forward to your ISP.
> I've had my main domain since 1998 (when they cost a fortune!) and never
> forwarded to my ISP.
>
> > Also we only get 10 mailboxes[1] at xencentric but unlimited email
> > forwarders.
> The simplest, and how we do it, is set up the required email addresses on XC
> and forward them to one of the XC mailboxes. Like us, XC allows unlimited
> email alias addresses.

Whats XC?

That might work for a one man band but we have six people accessing our
email and some of us in multiple capacities at multiple locations.

Concurrent mutiusers accessing the same mail box?
I'm sure it can be done but sorting fundamentals first seems wise.

> > So we'd have change things quite a bit and it will probably cost us more.
> Not necessarily? ;)
>
> > Currently I just don't have the time to make changes like that. I used
> > to say I hope to semi-retire to 40 hours a week when I'm 50, I now need to
> > revise that to when I'm 70!
> >
> > [1] I could prune the 25 odd email address we use but 10 would be difficult
>
> [snip]
> > > Since it's easy to set up MPro to access multiple mailboxes, I created a
> > > new mailbox, removed the forwarding and problem was solved.
> > >
> > > Of course, this may not be relevant, but I'm hoping my experience will
> > > give you an insight into what is happening.
> > All information is welcome.
> I made my suggestions on the assumption you were using somehing like
> Messenger Pro, but it seems you are using Marcel. Might be worth considering
> updating to a more modern RISC OS mail client?

We would have the same problem with MessengerPro. The duplicates can be seen
via webmail before RISC OS is touched.

We bought the multiuser/network version of MessengerPro a while back but
despite assistance from R-Comp we failed to get it working properly and had
to get back to paid work.

Chris Hughes reports success but the only other person I know who had
multiuser/network version of MessengerPro said they never got it working
adequately and gave up.

When we have time I do plan on trying again but time is not something in
stock at CJE:-(

IIRC R-Comp told me several years ago MessengerPro can't fetch with POP
and leave the emails on the server for a set time. Which is the way I use
email on our PCs very effective. There had apparently been a
request for this from someone else so they hoped to add it. I can't recall
mention of this being added since.

I'll ask Andrew at the show.

David Higton

unread,
Apr 25, 2022, 9:42:47 AMApr 25
to
In message <ant25110...@client.cjemicros.co.uk>
"Chris Evans (CJE/4D)" <ch...@cjemicros.co.uk> wrote:

> IIRC R-Comp told me several years ago MessengerPro can't fetch with POP
> and leave the emails on the server for a set time. Which is the way I use
> email on our PCs very effective.

You might like to look at inbox.com, which is where I get my email
service. Their servers do POP, and accept the DELE command, but the
mail remains on the server until deleted by someone using webmail.
It might be pretty much what you want.

David

Chris Hughes

unread,
Apr 25, 2022, 11:13:18 AMApr 25
to
In message <ant25110...@client.cjemicros.co.uk>
"Chris Evans (CJE/4D)" <ch...@cjemicros.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <59DE1A98B0%mik....@xemik.com>, Mik Towse
> <URL:mailto:m...@towse.org.uk> wrote:
>> In article <ant22142...@client.cjemicros.co.uk> Chris Evans (CJE/4D)
>> wrote:
>>> When we started using a hoster many years ago the common (recommended?) way
>>> was to forward to your ISP.
>> I've had my main domain since 1998 (when they cost a fortune!) and never
>> forwarded to my ISP.
>>
>>> Also we only get 10 mailboxes[1] at xencentric but unlimited email
>>> forwarders.
>> The simplest, and how we do it, is set up the required email addresses on XC
>> and forward them to one of the XC mailboxes. Like us, XC allows unlimited
>> email alias addresses.

> Whats XC?

Short for Xencentric

> That might work for a one man band but we have six people accessing our
> email and some of us in multiple capacities at multiple locations.

So what you are wanting is IMAP access to the emails by the sounds of it.
That way the emails remain on the server until you fill the quota up or
delete the message

> Concurrent mutiusers accessing the same mail box?

Yes its possible but as you have 6 users have six primary mailboxes and
point the other alias's to the appropriate primary mailbox - remember you
can have an alias pointing to two or more primary mailboxes.

> I'm sure it can be done but sorting fundamentals first seems wise.

You need to review if you really need all those email addresses!

>>> So we'd have change things quite a bit and it will probably cost us more.
>> Not necessarily? ;)
>>
>>> Currently I just don't have the time to make changes like that. I used
>>> to say I hope to semi-retire to 40 hours a week when I'm 50, I now need to
>>> revise that to when I'm 70!
>>>
>>> [1] I could prune the 25 odd email address we use but 10 would be difficult
>>
>> [snip]
>>>> Since it's easy to set up MPro to access multiple mailboxes, I created a
>>>> new mailbox, removed the forwarding and problem was solved.
>>>>
>>>> Of course, this may not be relevant, but I'm hoping my experience will
>>>> give you an insight into what is happening.
>>> All information is welcome.
>> I made my suggestions on the assumption you were using somehing like
>> Messenger Pro, but it seems you are using Marcel. Might be worth considering
>> updating to a more modern RISC OS mail client?

> We would have the same problem with MessengerPro. The duplicates can be seen
> via webmail before RISC OS is touched.

We are not talking about your duplicate copies being received by PlusNet
since PlusNet would not be involved in processing your emails.

> We bought the multiuser/network version of MessengerPro a while back but
> despite assistance from R-Comp we failed to get it working properly and had
> to get back to paid work.

I would be happy to try and help if I can, depending on what you are
trying to do with all these email addresses.

> Chris Hughes reports success but the only other person I know who had
> multiuser/network version of MessengerPro said they never got it working
> adequately and gave up.

Yep, Here was ARMX6 acting as the receiving mail server collecting emails
at 10 mins intervals from various mail servers (including Xencentric),
then the other computers in the house collect the mail as required from
the ARMX6 (the mail remains on the ARMX6). The other computers are
primarily now PC's and Laptops, but I have used messenger Pro within
Virtual RPC before now, and indeed at one time a RiscPC.

Maybe its time I got round to writting that article I have been think of
doing for "The WROCC"

> When we have time I do plan on trying again but time is not something in
> stock at CJE:-(

OK. I do think you are going to move it up your priority list soon.

> IIRC R-Comp told me several years ago MessengerPro can't fetch with POP
> and leave the emails on the server for a set time. Which is the way I use
> email on our PCs very effective. There had apparently been a
> request for this from someone else so they hoped to add it. I can't recall
> mention of this being added since.

Sounds like again you are on about IMAP rather then POP3, maybe its the
way you are describing it. Messenger Pro can fetch mail via POP3 and leave
the original on the server but then it will depend on the hosting company
how long they hold it for on their expensive server space for.

> I'll ask Andrew at the show.

> Chris Evans



--

Mik Towse

unread,
Apr 25, 2022, 4:12:33 PMApr 25
to
In article <47d0b8de59.chris@mytardis> Chris Hughes wrote:

> In message <ant25110...@client.cjemicros.co.uk>
> "Chris Evans (CJE/4D)" <ch...@cjemicros.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > In article <59DE1A98B0%mik....@xemik.com>, Mik Towse
> > <URL:mailto:m...@towse.org.uk> wrote:
[snip]
> > Whats XC?
> Short for Xencentric
Indeed. Sorry I was being lazy.

> > That might work for a one man band but we have six people accessing our
> > email and some of us in multiple capacities at multiple locations.
> So what you are wanting is IMAP access to the emails by the sounds of it.
> That way the emails remain on the server until you fill the quota up or
> delete the message
POP is possible, but IMAP allows public and private folders, which can be
useful where several people have access to the emails.

[snip]
> > > I made my suggestions on the assumption you were using somehing like
> > > Messenger Pro, but it seems you are using Marcel. Might be worth
> > > considering updating to a more modern RISC OS mail client?
> > We would have the same problem with MessengerPro. The duplicates can be
> > seen via webmail before RISC OS is touched.
> We are not talking about your duplicate copies being received by PlusNet
> since PlusNet would not be involved in processing your emails.
This is the part I'm still confused about. I can't get my head around why
multiple XC mailboxes would be forwarded to a Plusnet account. Most (all?)
ISPs I'm aware of only give you one mailbox. This is one reason we use a
hosting service, because it allows many mailboxes. Forwarding many
XC mailboxes to one Plusnet mailbox seems to be at odds with what Chris E is
saying he needs.

Of course he may have several Plusnet mailboxes, but this makes no sense when
he has several with XC.

[snip multi-user comments]
> > IIRC R-Comp told me several years ago MessengerPro can't fetch with POP
> > and leave the emails on the server for a set time. Which is the way I use
> > email on our PCs very effective. There had apparently been a request for
> > this from someone else so they hoped to add it. I can't recall mention of
> > this being added since.
> Sounds like again you are on about IMAP rather then POP3, maybe its the
> way you are describing it. Messenger Pro can fetch mail via POP3 and leave
> the original on the server but then it will depend on the hosting company
> how long they hold it for on their expensive server space for.
And many hosting companies don't have the generous 10GB mailboxes we do. ;)

IIRC originally MPro had two versions, POP3 and multiuser IMAP. Perhaps
the former didn't allow POP3 to be left on the server. It's certainly an
option to Remove (or not) on Fetch these days.

--
Mik Towse * mik....@xemik.com * http://www.xemik.co.uk/
My writers' site can be found at: http://www.lexis.org.uk

xemik.net - cost effective web hosting : http://xemik.net

We can't all be heroes because somebody has to
sit on the curb and clap as they go by. Will Rogers

Chris Hughes

unread,
Apr 25, 2022, 6:21:28 PMApr 25
to
In message <59DED13F83%mik....@xemik.com>
Mik Towse <m...@towse.org.uk> wrote:

> In article <47d0b8de59.chris@mytardis> Chris Hughes wrote:

>> In message <ant25110...@client.cjemicros.co.uk>
>> "Chris Evans (CJE/4D)" <ch...@cjemicros.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> In article <59DE1A98B0%mik....@xemik.com>, Mik Towse
>>> <URL:mailto:m...@towse.org.uk> wrote:

> [snip]
>>>> I made my suggestions on the assumption you were using somehing like
>>>> Messenger Pro, but it seems you are using Marcel. Might be worth
>>>> considering updating to a more modern RISC OS mail client?
>>> We would have the same problem with MessengerPro. The duplicates can be
>>> seen via webmail before RISC OS is touched.
>> We are not talking about your duplicate copies being received by PlusNet
>> since PlusNet would not be involved in processing your emails.
> This is the part I'm still confused about. I can't get my head around why
> multiple XC mailboxes would be forwarded to a Plusnet account. Most (all?)
> ISPs I'm aware of only give you one mailbox. This is one reason we use a
> hosting service, because it allows many mailboxes. Forwarding many
> XC mailboxes to one Plusnet mailbox seems to be at odds with what Chris E is
> saying he needs.

> Of course he may have several Plusnet mailboxes, but this makes no sense when
> he has several with XC.

You can have multiple mailboxes with PlusNet.

> [snip multi-user comments]
>>> IIRC R-Comp told me several years ago MessengerPro can't fetch with POP
>>> and leave the emails on the server for a set time. Which is the way I use
>>> email on our PCs very effective. There had apparently been a request for
>>> this from someone else so they hoped to add it. I can't recall mention of
>>> this being added since.
>> Sounds like again you are on about IMAP rather then POP3, maybe its the
>> way you are describing it. Messenger Pro can fetch mail via POP3 and leave
>> the original on the server but then it will depend on the hosting company
>> how long they hold it for on their expensive server space for.
> And many hosting companies don't have the generous 10GB mailboxes we do. ;)

Indeed I think Xencentric only has a lower limit

> IIRC originally MPro had two versions, POP3 and multiuser IMAP. Perhaps
> the former didn't allow POP3 to be left on the server. It's certainly an
> option to Remove (or not) on Fetch these days.

Its not Messenger Pro that does the fetching etc from the mail servers its
Hermes or Popstar - There is also only now one version of Messenger Pro

Richard Porter

unread,
May 4, 2022, 4:22:30 PMMay 4
to
The date being 20 Apr 2022, "Chris Evans (CJE/4D)" <ch...@cjemicros.co.uk>
decided to write:

> Is there anyone here who uses plusnet as an ISP, getting three copies of
> each emails sent to them?

Yes.

> We use XenCentric as a domain hoster and PlusNet as an ISP and for the last
> four weeks when XenCentric tries forwarding our emails to Plusnet they error
> so xencentric retries but they actually are getting through each time.

> Anyone else using XenCentric as a domain hoster and PlusNet as an ISP?

XenCentric: No, I use eUKhost; PlusNet: Yes.

> PlusNet say they don't have a problem with other people forwarding and
> XenCentric have no problem with other ISPs and have sent me the logs below
> showing the PlusNet error.

I'm getting triplicate messages (two together and one some time later) for
all messages sent from or via my domains hosted by eUKhost, plus messages
from eUKhost support etc.

The only differences between the messages are in the first few headers
before DKIM-Signature. The routing is slightly different at PlusNet.

Messages sent direct to PlusNet are OK. Messages into eUKhost are single.
The problem is somewhere in the interface between eUKhost and PlusNet.
I've raised tickets with both of them.

Incidentally I ran tests with Messenger Pro not running, and triplicate
messages were queued up. One of the problems with PlusNet is that they
won't investigate mail to/from mail clients. They want everyone to use
their webmail service.

--
Richard Porter

Richard Porter

unread,
May 4, 2022, 4:42:37 PMMay 4
to
The date being 21 Apr 2022, Mik Towse <m...@towse.org.uk> decided to write:

> It seems to me, that you have set up a forwarder to send emails from your XC
> mailboxes to your Plusnet mailbox? If this is the case, why would you do this
> rather than log in to those mailboxes directly?

In my case I do not have any mailboxes on my hosted domains except for a
test one set up for testing - only forwarders and mailing lists.
Everything for me gets sent to the corresponding PlusNet account.

> At one time I had an email address set ip on a domain to forward to my main
> address, but emails were disappearing. It turned out that the mail system
> didn't forward emails from a blacklisted domain, it simply dropped them. If
> there had been a mailbox those messaes would have been delivered to the Spam
> folder on that mailbox.

I've had blacklisting problems due to other users of the shared Linux
server I use generating spam, or maybe it's zombie PCs.

> Since it's easy to set up MPro to access multiple mailboxes, I created a new
> mailbox, removed the forwarding and problem was solved.

> Of course, this may not be relevant, but I'm hoping my experience will give
> you an insight into what is happening.

All thoughts and experience are appreciated!

--
Richard Porter

Richard Porter

unread,
May 4, 2022, 4:52:39 PMMay 4
to
The date being 24 Apr 2022, Mik Towse <m...@towse.org.uk> decided to write:

> I made my suggestions on the assumption you were using somehing like
> Messenger Pro, but it seems you are using Marcel. Might be worth considering
> updating to a more modern RISC OS mail client?

It seems that the mail client is doing what it should do. If it gets three
messages it shows three messages and stores three messages. There may be
some setting at the transport layer (i.e. Hermes/POPstar) that needs
tweaking. But in any case if PlusNet rejects a message which then gets
re-sent it shouldn't also be delivering the message.
--
Richard Porter

Richard Porter

unread,
May 4, 2022, 5:12:47 PMMay 4
to
The date being 25 Apr 2022, Chris Hughes <new...@noonehere.co.uk> decided
to write:

> Yep, Here was ARMX6 acting as the receiving mail server collecting emails
> at 10 mins intervals from various mail servers (including Xencentric),
> then the other computers in the house collect the mail as required from
> the ARMX6 (the mail remains on the ARMX6). The other computers are
> primarily now PC's and Laptops, but I have used messenger Pro within
> Virtual RPC before now, and indeed at one time a RiscPC.

I tried using Messenger Pro on my iMac and still got the triplicate
messages. I would expect this to use a completely different comms stack.
I then sent similar messages to my iPhone and got single messages.

The ARMX6, iMac and iPhone pull mail off diferent PlusNet mailboxes.

--
Richard Porter

Chris Evans (CJE/4D)

unread,
May 6, 2022, 6:44:10 AMMay 6
to
In article <676d78e...@user.minijem.plus.com>, Richard Porter
PlusNet eventually came up with a work around (full reply below)
of enabling spam filtering on their server which means a different server is
used.
Even on minimum setting the new server was marking some ebay, paypal &
sainsburys emails as spam desite having them whitelisted months ago. The
whitelist does now seem to be working though I had to set up another email
address to have spam sent to just in case (Plusnet allow 20 email addresses)

I already had XenCentric throwing away obvious spam.

The problem I see is if they update their spam filtering server to the same
as the non spam filtering server then the triplicates will start again!

I've told them they should fix the problem on the original server but am
getting no reply


# All three messages were marked as accepted on our side
# Only the last message was marked as sent by the sending server, with the
# others marked as failures. Each message hit an unique server on our platform
# in the cluster of mail servers we have across 2 locations

# Based on this, we cannot see if there is a wider issue or if it is just
# isolated to one parties outbound mail servers.

# I would suggest that the user considers enabling Spam filtering in Manage My
# Mail, adjusting the default settings to be lower as needed. This will adjust
# the mail exchanger (MX) records from our core mail servers (mx.core) to our
# anti virus anti spam (mx.avasin) to see if this eliminates the issue.

# If it does, then the issue has been cleared.
# If it doesn't, then the user has utilised all our available mail platform
# for inbound mail delivery and with a limited number of reports being passed
# to our team, will either point to a client based issue or a sending server
# issue.
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