Phoebe Feedback required
Dickon Hood
stu...@cybervillage.takeoutthisbit.co.uk (Stuart Halliday) wrote:
: I've been contacted by certain parties interested in launching the Phoebe
: computer but the question on everyones lips is there a large enough demand
: for it?
What, *again*? Haven't we done this once?
: So, if you are seriously interested in purchasing a Phoebe computer if they
: are made available you can greatly help in this area by going to the Acorn
: Cybervillage web page in the Hotnet Acorn section and reading the Market
: Research page and submitting the form to us.
What, *again*? Haven't we done this once?
--
Dickon Hood
Due to binaries posted to non-binary newsgroups, my .sig is
temporarily unavailable. Normal service will be resumed as soon as
possible. We apologise for the inconvenience in the mean time.
Andy McMullon
<URL:mailto:s...@holsoft.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <a23e879a48%dicko...@splurge.fluff.org>> Well, at a guess, the numbers who have so far responded fall well below what
> was hoped........
>
The trouble is that this is a Catch 22 - how many people will respond
when they don't really know what is on offer - or if there is an
alternative.
Phoebe - yes please, soon and as cheap as possible.
ChiOS PCI - yes please, but I suspect it will be quite a while.
RiscOS on CATS(or similar) - is anyone trying?
RiscOS on FT multi-ARM10 - YES please, but when?
The longer it takes the more likely it is that people will wait for
alternatives. The touble is the longer it takes the smaller the
potential market will become and the less likely any of the other
projects will happen.
Surely this is why Acorn pulled the plug. And if something doesn't
happen soon there will be no bathwater left!
We do need Phoebe - soonest - and we all neeed to support it! The
consequences are to dire to contemplate..........:-(
--
Andy: skyp...@bigfoot.com / http://www.mcfamily.demon.co.uk
New aircraft pictures at http://www.mcfamily.demon.co.uk/bbmf.htm
Howard Cutler
stu...@cybervillage.takeoutthisbit.co.uk (Stuart Halliday) wrote:
> I've been contacted by certain parties interested in launching the Phoebe
> computer but the question on everyones lips is there a large enough demand
> for it?
>snip
Oh no, how many mores times have we all to go through this process?
If we continue like this we'll never see Phoebe except for a mountain
off repeated paper demands!
Cheers,
Adge
=============================================================================
** 233MHz Acorn RiscPC **
P133 Co-Processor running Win98Plus!
Howard Cutler adg...@adgecut.demon.co.uk
WWW: http://www.adgecut.demon.co.uk
=============================================================================
Chika
Steve Holroyd <s...@holsoft.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <a23e879a48%dicko...@splurge.fluff.org>
> Dickon Hood <dicko...@fluff.org> wrote:
> >
> > What, *again*? Haven't we done this once?
> Well, at a guess, the numbers who have so far responded fall well below what
> was hoped........
I did try, but it timed out when calling the posting cgi.
--
______
| /\ | Chika (irc #anime) - mad...@argonet.co.uk Phoebe Reg.No. 128
| //\\ | The Lurkers' Retreat / Madoka's Crash Pages aICQ UIN 15258170
|_/__\_| http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/madoka/ (ZFC A / CAPOW)
... I'm dangerous when I know what I'm doing.
Chika
In article <ant25151...@mcfamily.demon.co.uk>,
Andy McMullon <skyp...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> The trouble is that this is a Catch 22 - how many people will respond
> when they don't really know what is on offer - or if there is an
> alternative.
> Phoebe - yes please, soon and as cheap as possible.
Can't argue with that. If it means buying a motherboard and essential bits
and building the rest from available stock then so be it, I don't really
mind!
> ChiOS PCI - yes please, but I suspect it will be quite a while.
I'm still not sure about this one. I'll reserve judgement for now...
> RiscOS on CATS(or similar) - is anyone trying?
If they do, I'm interested. The CATS board looks good as it is... hmm...
ChiOS PCI board on a CATS anyone? ;)
> RiscOS on FT multi-ARM10 - YES please, but when?
Hmm.... maybe...
I think that the uncertainty is getting me more than anything else. I
already decided to give Feeb until January to appear before making a move
to anything else, the choice being either something MAC based, something
CATS based or strap another RPC in and go experimenting. Whichever way it
goes, my current sys stays where it is and will most likely carry on as
the main sys for the future. I just wish I knew more of what was happening
at high level... waiting around can be very stressful!!! :)
--
______
| /\ | Chika (irc #anime) - mad...@argonet.co.uk Phoebe Reg.No. 128
| //\\ | The Lurkers' Retreat / Madoka's Crash Pages aICQ UIN 15258170
|_/__\_| http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/madoka/ (ZFC A / CAPOW)
... Mental Floss prevents Moral Decay.
Ray Briddock
Steve Holroyd <s...@holsoft.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <a23e879a48%dicko...@splurge.fluff.org>
> Dickon Hood <dicko...@fluff.org> wrote:
> >
> > What, *again*? Haven't we done this once?
>
> Well, at a guess, the numbers who have so far responded fall well below what
> was hoped........
>
I visited the site, but was dissapointed to find no specification.
Now I could trust that the spec. would be the same as Acorn originally
publicised, or I could think that in order to get the price down,
further corners would be cut.
Either way, without solid information, I considered that it would be
misleading of me to commit to a purchase, where I don't have access to
any of the information I would normally use to make a decision.
I wonder how many others felt the same. Perhaps a comment box at the
bottom of the web page may elicit some response.
--
Ray Briddock
http://www.alphabeta.demon.co.uk (Updated 22/9/1998)
Andy McMullon
<URL:mailto:R...@alphabeta.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> I visited the site, but was dissapointed to find no specification.
> Now I could trust that the spec. would be the same as Acorn originally
> publicised, or I could think that in order to get the price down,
> further corners would be cut.
>
> Either way, without solid information, I considered that it would be
> misleading of me to commit to a purchase, where I don't have access to
> any of the information I would normally use to make a decision.
>
> I wonder how many others felt the same. Perhaps a comment box at the
> bottom of the web page may elicit some response.
>
It was made clear that you were not commiting yourself to a purchase!
Just get signed up or you may not even have a choice!
Stuart Halliday
says...
> I visited the site, but was dissapointed to find no specification.
> Now I could trust that the spec. would be the same as Acorn originally
> publicised, or I could think that in order to get the price down,
> further corners would be cut.
Any Phoebe released would *have* to be based on Acorn's one wouldn't it?
I can't speak for these companies planning to rescue Phoebe but Acorn have a
99% virtually finished product and the spec of that is very widely know.
It should be obvious to anyone that for the future development of the RISC
OS computer market that to develop 32-bit RISC OS, multi-processors, further
enhancements to RISC OS, etc. will require healthy sales of the RiscPC2 and
put quite simply if that doesn't happen then probably neither will any
future RISC OS developments. IMHO.
If the RiscPC2 is released then all those "Acorn users committed to the
Acorn market" still using a A30x0 should spend some money on a new computer
and give the hardware and software Acorn market some real support!
> I wonder how many others felt the same. Perhaps a comment box at the
> bottom of the web page may elicit some response.
So why mention it in a message to this newsgroup and not email me directly?
I don't read *every* posting you know? :-)
BTW.
So far I've had over 600 people filling in the form....
That was after I removed some of the daft postings from technofreaks and sad
people who thought sending 5 or 10 postings was fun!
Most people want the Phoebe as soon as possible of course and this is very
encouraging with only a few wanting the Moon on a stick!
The main delays around at the moment seems to be in the raising of a couple
of million pounds to establish a viable business. Banks and the like seem to
take their time over arranging this as you can imagine....
--
Stuart Halliday
Acorn Cybervillage
http://acorn.cybervillage.co.uk/
Andy McMullon
<URL:mailto:stu...@cybervillage.co.ouch.uk> wrote:
> It should be obvious to anyone that for the future development of the RISC
> OS computer market that to develop 32-bit RISC OS, multi-processors, further
> enhancements to RISC OS, etc. will require healthy sales of the RiscPC2 and
> put quite simply if that doesn't happen then probably neither will any
> future RISC OS developments. IMHO.
>
> If the RiscPC2 is released then all those "Acorn users committed to the
> Acorn market" still using a A30x0 should spend some money on a new computer
> and give the hardware and software Acorn market some real support!
Exactly!
It is getting very close to "put your money where your mouth is" time!
Of course it should be obvious that getting the best possible pricing on
Phoebe is essential. Acorn's original price was never going to get all
those A30x0 people to upgrade - they were far more likely to be buying
up the old RPCs at bargain prices!
Henry Helliwell
<URL:mailto:skyp...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> In article <MPG.109e7010d...@news.ecs.local>, Stuart Halliday
> <URL:mailto:stu...@cybervillage.co.ouch.uk> wrote:
>
> > It should be obvious to anyone that for the future development of the RISC
> > OS computer market that to develop 32-bit RISC OS, multi-processors, further
> > enhancements to RISC OS, etc. will require healthy sales of the RiscPC2 and
> > put quite simply if that doesn't happen then probably neither will any
> > future RISC OS developments. IMHO.
> >
> > If the RiscPC2 is released then all those "Acorn users committed to the
> > Acorn market" still using a A30x0 should spend some money on a new computer
> > and give the hardware and software Acorn market some real support!
>
> Exactly!
>
> It is getting very close to "put your money where your mouth is" time!
>
> Of course it should be obvious that getting the best possible pricing on
> Phoebe is essential. Acorn's original price was never going to get all
> those A30x0 people to upgrade - they were far more likely to be buying
> up the old RPCs at bargain prices!
Exactly what I've just done, as it happens, but the person selling
wasn't getting a RPC2...
--
Henry Helliwell
he...@stohelit.demon.co.uk
Stephen Burke
> Either way, without solid information, I considered that it would be
> misleading of me to commit to a purchase, where I don't have access to
> any of the information I would normally use to make a decision.
I don't think that's really too relevant. They can't expect a very accurate
result from such a survey anyway, just a rough idea. No-one replying to it is
committing themselves AFAICS. If I were looking at the results I'd divide by at
least 2 to allow for losses once people were spending real money - although
you'd also have to multiply by some factor to allow for the many people who
won't have seen or responded to the survey. But if they only end up with a
couple of dozen responses of any kind it won't look good ...
--
e----><----p | Stephen Burke | E-mail: (anti-junk mail version)
H H 1 | Gruppe FH1T (Lancaster) | stephen.burke@
H H 11 | DESY, Notkestrasse 85 | desy.de
HHHHH 1 | 22603 Hamburg, Germany | All junk mail deleted on sight!
H H 1 | "It is also a good rule not to put too much confidence in
H H 11111 | experimental results until they have been confirmed by theory"
André van den Berg
<URL:mailto:skyp...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> In article <MPG.109e7010d...@news.ecs.local>, Stuart Halliday
> <URL:mailto:stu...@cybervillage.co.ouch.uk> wrote:
> > If the RiscPC2 is released then all those "Acorn users committed to the
> > Acorn market" still using a A30x0 should spend some money on a new computer
> > and give the hardware and software Acorn market some real support!
>
> Exactly!
>
> It is getting very close to "put your money where your mouth is" time!
>
> Of course it should be obvious that getting the best possible pricing on
> Phoebe is essential. Acorn's original price was never going to get all
> those A30x0 people to upgrade - they were far more likely to be buying
> up the old RPCs at bargain prices!
Even more important: everybody should exchange illegal copies of his
software into legal versions. I have nothing against people using such a
copy for a while but when you are seriously using it, buy it!
Support of RISC OS is also about providing bread on the shelves for the
software developers and not just selling the hardware.
Which brings me to another subject: if all softwarehouses would stop selling
directly to end users abroad, I (the dealers) could stock more software(...)
and on for example usergroup events only demonstrate the features of the
software and not spending time hassling around with credit cards and order
notes.
A mechanism should than be created that dealer stock is updated; my
customers sometimes have newer versions in use than I sell.
Some software houses sell directly but provide a finders fee for us so that
we can give support f.o.c. to users...
A very good example is Aspex (hello Nick)
The Cbervillage action to give feedback on purchase plans is of course a
good initiative but I feel that the effect of Internet is a bit overrated;
does anybody extrapolate the data of the feedback on Phoebe to the people
who don't have Internet but are Acorn users. How high (or low) is the
percentage of Acorn users with an internet connection compared to those
without? Does anybody know (or take it in account)?
Vriendelijke groet / Kind regards,
André van den Berg,
ECD Computers
Ernst Dinkla
<URL:mailto:ec...@xs4all.nl> wrote:
(snip)
> The Cbervillage action to give feedback on purchase plans is of course a
> good initiative but I feel that the effect of Internet is a bit overrated;
> does anybody extrapolate the data of the feedback on Phoebe to the people
> who don't have Internet but are Acorn users. How high (or low) is the
> percentage of Acorn users with an internet connection compared to those
> without? Does anybody know (or take it in account)?
What percentage would you estimate for the Netherlands André ?
The Big Ben Club has about 500 members. Of that group I guess
there are about 50 on the Internet. But the Big Ben Club doesn't
cover all the active users of Acorns and the Club has a lot of
sleeping members; paying their contribution and that's all what
we know of them. Then there are some organisations; NOB, schools
etc. that have Acorns in use and even have an Internet connection
but don't follow the Acorn newsgroups. In the UK their number must
be far higher. Acornet based on BBSses in the Netherlands will
put some Internet news through to its users but filling in the
request on Cybervillage isn't easy that way.
There's another point; the Acorn home users on the Internet are
probably wealthier than the users that aren't on the Internet.
Their equipment will be more up to date and they are more
interested in getting even newer machines. The Internet users
that work with Acorns in their jobs or business will fall in the
same category. The number of students among the Internet users
will be high so that may dampen the effect of the two other groups.
The Internet users will be better informed than the other group.
Will that influence their decision and in which direction?
Taken this all in account I think it is bloody difficult to estimate
any number of potential buyers based on Internet requests.
If you take the number of RPCs sold by Acorn over the period August
1997/1998. Do you expect that they could sell an equal amount of
PRPC2s in one year, or a half that number in one year, or a quarter?
That's the question the United Dealers and Xemplar must have an
answer for with their experience in the past.
Ernst
--
Ernst Dinkla Serigrafie,Zeefdruk edi...@inter.nl.net
All views expressed are my own and may have no relation whatsoever
to the views of Acorn, Intel, Tulip, IBM, ARM, Sun, Compaq, Micro-
Chris Hughes
<URL:mailto:skyp...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> In article <MPG.109e7010d...@news.ecs.local>, Stuart Halliday
> <URL:mailto:stu...@cybervillage.co.ouch.uk> wrote:
>
> > OS computer market that to develop 32-bit RISC OS, multi-processors, further
> > enhancements to RISC OS, etc. will require healthy sales of the RiscPC2 and
> > put quite simply if that doesn't happen then probably neither will any
> > future RISC OS developments. IMHO.
> >
> > Acorn market" still using a A30x0 should spend some money on a new computer
> > and give the hardware and software Acorn market some real support!
>
> Exactly!
>
> It is getting very close to "put your money where your mouth is" time!
>
> Of course it should be obvious that getting the best possible pricing on
> Phoebe is essential. Acorn's original price was never going to get all
> those A30x0 people to upgrade - they were far more likely to be buying
> up the old RPCs at bargain prices!
An interesting point.
I was just reviewing those original Phoebe prices, and thinking about it.
Full price was 1750 ukp with monitor, minus 500 ukp maximum discount, i.e.
now 1250 ukp, then look at the value of the various bits of software that
was being included originally, around 500 ukp, meaning the machine would
have actually cost 750 ukp. Not a bad price!
(Putting flame proof suit on) :-)
--
Chris Hughes, Member of Wakefield Acorn Computer (User) Group
(The views expressed above are mine, and not necessarily the User Group's)
Alan Muscat
stu...@cybervillage.co.ouch.uk (Stuart Halliday) wrote:
>
>Most people want the Phoebe as soon as possible of course and this is very
>encouraging with only a few wanting the Moon on a stick!
>
>The main delays around at the moment seems to be in the raising of a couple
>of million pounds to establish a viable business. Banks and the like seem to
>take their time over arranging this as you can imagine....
>
Stuart, are you in a position to give us a summary of the current situation.
Who is doing what? Is Peter Bondar involved anymore? Is the situation hopeful?
It all seems to have gone very quiet. Where are we up to?
--
Alan Muscat
*************** Grapevine Digital Arts ***********************
************** http://www.gvine.demon.co.uk *********************
S.J. Crocker
Hmmm... If they'd done a version without that software for about
£750, they would probably have had a lot more demand and maybe they
wouldn't have cancelled it... Hmmm...
Thomas Boroske
André van den Berg <ec...@xs4all.nl> wrote:
> Which brings me to another subject: if all softwarehouses would stop selling
> directly to end users abroad, I (the dealers) could stock more software(...)
Don't even dare to suggest this. So far I've always found a dealer here
in Germany for my software purchases, but their number has become so
low that it's close to none. In that situation, it's somewhat unrealistic
to suggest that software companies should only sell through dealers,
and not direct, when there simply isn't the dealer network to support
it.
Yes, chicken and egg situation of a sort, but the dealer situation here
in Germany was *lots* better two years ago for example, and even then
practically no-one could hope to have a dealer in walking distance.
You're suggesting that software developers should, sort of, subside
the dealer network by not selling direct to customers (I gather that
direct sales give more cash to the developer, seems obvious).
That is particularily dangerous in a market that's simply too
small, and may lead to results opposite to what you expect.
Kind regards,
--
Thomas Boroske
astral alice
> >I was just reviewing those original Phoebe prices, and thinking about it.
> >
> >Full price was 1750 ukp with monitor, minus 500 ukp maximum discount, i.e.
> >now 1250 ukp, then look at the value of the various bits of software that
> >was being included originally, around 500 ukp, meaning the machine would
> >have actually cost 750 ukp. Not a bad price!
S J. Crocker said:
> Hmmm... If they'd done a version without that software for about
> £750, they would probably have had a lot more demand and maybe they
> wouldn't have cancelled it... Hmmm...
I agree. I didn't even realise that software and things were being
included. The dealers I spoke to all said they didn't really know
what the spec of the machine was going to be - they knew some
technical details but nothing about the PC card or what else would
come in the bundle...
alice.
--
***********************************************************************
* astral alice: bi, poly, goth | http://www.darkwave.org.uk/~alice *
* astra on Cut | telnet://cut.meep.org:4040 *
* ------------------------------------------------------------------- *
* "Love belongs to Desire, and Desire is always cruel." - The Sandman *
***********************************************************************
Fred Bambrough
sj...@cam.ac.uk (S.J. Crocker) wrote:
> On Tue, 27 Oct 1998 12:31:41 +0000, Chris Hughes
> <ch...@cumbrian.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
[snip]
> >
> >An interesting point.
> >
> >I was just reviewing those original Phoebe prices, and thinking about it.
> >
> >Full price was 1750 ukp with monitor, minus 500 ukp maximum discount, i.e.
> >now 1250 ukp, then look at the value of the various bits of software that
> >was being included originally, around 500 ukp, meaning the machine would
> >have actually cost 750 ukp. Not a bad price!
>
> Hmmm... If they'd done a version without that software for about
> Ł750, they would probably have had a lot more demand and maybe they
> wouldn't have cancelled it... Hmmm...
Is that assuming that Acorn would've paid full retail price for the
software? Unlikely, I would think. I have a feeling your discount would
be somewhat smaller.
--
Fred
Mailto:fr...@ypical.demon.co.uk
PGP key available
Acorn International
<snip>
>
> Even more important: everybody should exchange illegal copies of his
> software into legal versions.
>
hear, hear, who is saying this!
This man is given illegal copies away to steady customers in the past and now
he is saying about not giving away illegal copies of software !!!
Even Acorn Computers Ltd. knows this!
> Which brings me to another subject: if all softwarehouses would stop selling
> directly to end users abroad, I (the dealers) could stock more software(...)
> and on for example usergroup events only demonstrate the features of the
> software
>
Correct, I totally agree with this!
>
> Vriendelijke groet / Kind regards,
>
> André van den Berg,
>
Vriendelijke groeten,
Sincerely,
Simon Elzinga,
Datawave Nederland,
si...@datawave.demon.nl
--
Intel is TRASH - MicroSoft is GARBAGE - Better Blow them
Acorn RiscPC Computers - NR. 1 in Computer Technology
No Millenium Problems - No virusses at All - The NR. 1
André van den Berg
> hear, hear, who is saying this!
> This man is given illegal copies away to steady customers in the past and now
> he is saying about not giving away illegal copies of software !!!
> Even Acorn Computers Ltd. knows this!
>
Not true at all/not at all true.
Many times it concerned either outdated or demoversions or very high quality
PD-stuff (confusing for first time users).
After all: I've sold the largest amount of Impressions, Artworks or any
other popular program, to private end users and companies.
I don't know the exact no. of Impression sold (many);PC's generate 80% of my
turnover and I've sold four(sic) original WP's in ten years.
I alway said to my customers: 'If you are going to use this seriously, buy
an original!'
WordPerfect got popular because students were using illegal copies.
Their universities and lecturers HAD to BUY...
Met vriendelijke groet / Kind regards,
Andre van den Berg
ECD Computers Automatisering / Detachering
Patrijsweg 16
2289 EX Rijswijk / The Netherlands
Tel. +31(0)70 319 4343
Fax: +31(0)70 319 4963
VATNo: NL009507590B01
Acorn E-mail : ec...@xs4all.nl
ECD E-mail : a...@ecd.nl
PC E-mail : in...@ecd.nl
Detachering E-mail: detac...@ecd.nl
Homepage : http://www.ecd.nl
Ernst Dinkla
<URL:mailto:fr...@ypical.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <3636f447....@nntp-serv.cam.ac.uk>
> sj...@cam.ac.uk (S.J. Crocker) wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 27 Oct 1998 12:31:41 +0000, Chris Hughes
> > <ch...@cumbrian.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > >Full price was 1750 ukp with monitor, minus 500 ukp maximum discount, i.e.
> > >now 1250 ukp, then look at the value of the various bits of software that
> > >was being included originally, around 500 ukp, meaning the machine would
> > >have actually cost 750 ukp. Not a bad price!
> >
> > Hmmm... If they'd done a version without that software for about
> > £750, they would probably have had a lot more demand and maybe they
> > wouldn't have cancelled it... Hmmm...
>
> Is that assuming that Acorn would've paid full retail price for the
> software? Unlikely, I would think. I have a feeling your discount would
> be somewhat smaller.
I know one example where Acorn would deliver a PRPC2 in exchange
for software. Without that software the total price of 5000? PRPC2s
would drop by half the price of one PRPC2 (no dealer margin but
transport included). Enough airbicycling as we say.
Simon Elzinga
Liam Gretton
<URL:mailto:si...@datawave.demon.nl> wrote:
> Intel is TRASH - MicroSoft is GARBAGE - Better Blow them
>
> Acorn RiscPC Computers - NR. 1 in Computer Technology
>
> No Millenium Problems - No virusses at All - The NR. 1
Stop beating about the bush - tell us what you really think!
--
Liam Gretton l...@star.le.ac.uk
Space Research Centre, li...@binliner.demon.co.uk
Physics and Astronomy Dept, phone +44 (0) 116 223 1039
Leicester University, fax +44 (0) 116 252 2464
Leicester LE1 7RH, UK http://xmm4.xra.le.ac.uk/
Stuart Halliday
says...
> Stuart, are you in a position to give us a summary of the current situation.
> Who is doing what? Is Peter Bondar involved anymore? Is the situation hopeful?
> It all seems to have gone very quiet.
Well, the 'Tulip' group seem to be keeping very quiet but I've heard that an
announcement of some sort is due within 7 days...
Good or bad I've no idea!
> Where are we up to?
At least two groups that I know of are currently trying to raise money to
continue Phoebe and therefore RISC OS 4 development (which IMHO is the only
sensible real-world option).
They don't want their names mentioned because of any false hopes this may
raise. When they've got any positive news they'll release it.
The trouble with the Internet is that news stories can break and collapse
within hours of each other and so we get all the churned up peaks and
troughs.
A magazine reader on the other hand just gets the bottom line... :-)
P.S.
someone asked on another thread of the estimate number of Acorn users on the
Internet. Well, judging by the number of my 'Quantum Software' customers who
give email addresses. I think a figure of around 25% is a fair number.
John Tytgat
> > hear, hear, who is saying this!
> > This man is given illegal copies away to steady customers in the past and now
> > he is saying about not giving away illegal copies of software !!!
> > Even Acorn Computers Ltd. knows this!
>
> Not true at all/not at all true.
Ahem, ahem, ahem... Computers sold with a harddisc *full* (= 0 bytes free)
of software whom several commercial programs & fonts...
> Many times it concerned either outdated
^^^^^^^^
Giving away outdated commercial software is still illegal !
> or demoversions or very high quality PD-stuff (confusing for first
> time users).
Or *shareware* (which is *not* PD !) programs and the fact that it were
shareware programs was cunnely omitted in the brochures.
> After all: I've sold the largest amount of Impressions, Artworks or any
> other popular program, to private end users and companies.
> I don't know the exact no. of Impression sold (many);PC's generate 80% of my
> turnover and I've sold four(sic) original WP's in ten years.
So what ? What does this proove ? That giving away illegal copies of
commercial software results in sales afterwards ?
John.
--
John Tytgat "Never make any mistaeks."
John....@barco.com (anonymous)
Dave Roberts
stu...@cybervillage.co.ouch.uk (Stuart Halliday) wrote:
>At least two groups that I know of are currently trying to raise money to
>continue Phoebe and therefore RISC OS 4 development (which IMHO is the
>only sensible real-world option).
It's only sensible, IMO, if they sod RISCOS 4 development and go straight
for RISCOS 5 or 6! If this isn't possible then the FT project is infinitely
more sensible. Maintaining the status quo isn't acceptible.
--
Dave Roberts
Simon Elzinga
<URL:mailto:l...@star.le.ac.uk> wrote:
> In article <ant29120...@datawave.demon.nl>, Simon Elzinga
> <URL:mailto:si...@datawave.demon.nl> wrote:
>
> > Intel is TRASH - MicroSoft is GARBAGE - Better Blow them
> >
> > Acorn RiscPC Computers - NR. 1 in Computer Technology
> >
> > No Millenium Problems - No virusses at All - The NR. 1
>
> Stop beating about the bush - tell us what you really think!
>
for everyone, you can easily program with riscos and lots of other
things ya can do with it, what is NOT possible with W95 or W98 or
other MsDom packages.
Ta,
Simon.
--
J W B Greenwood
<URL:mailto:mrp...@leeds.ac.uk> wrote:
> In article <MPG.10a26f6ad...@news.ecs.local>,
> stu...@cybervillage.co.ouch.uk (Stuart Halliday) wrote:
>
> >At least two groups that I know of are currently trying to raise money to
> >continue Phoebe and therefore RISC OS 4 development (which IMHO is the
> >only sensible real-world option).
>
> It's only sensible, IMO, if they sod RISCOS 4 development and go straight
> for RISCOS 5 or 6! If this isn't possible then the FT project is infinitely
> more sensible. Maintaining the status quo isn't acceptible.
>
Why not RISC OS 15 or 16, which would include a decision table driven
compiler to configure drivers for any peripheral to be attached, or
likely to be attached, to the machine. It should be possible in the
next two years, by that time I'll have save up enough to pay cash for
such a machine. We stoics can suffer much in return for 'jam
tomorrow'.
--
Stuart Marshall
Chris Hughes <ch...@cumbrian.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > It is getting very close to "put your money where your mouth is" time!
> > Of course it should be obvious that getting the best possible pricing on
> > Phoebe is essential. Acorn's original price was never going to get all
> > those A30x0 people to upgrade - they were far more likely to be buying
> > up the old RPCs at bargain prices!
> An interesting point.
Indeed.
> I was just reviewing those original Phoebe prices, and thinking about it.
As was I.. what a coincidence :-)
> Full price was 1750 ukp with monitor, minus 500 ukp maximum
> discount, i.e. now 1250 ukp, then look at the value of the
> various bits of software that was being included originally,
> around 500 ukp, meaning the machine would have actually cost 750
> ukp. Not a bad price!
To be honest, I have to agree here. However (okay, you knew that
was coming :-) ), the problem is not that the price itself is bad
value for money but that it is still a *lot* of money.
I'd honestly say that the price itself is *secondary* to a *good*
credit scheme. If a good deal something like the 20-20 finance
deal can be arranged I'd estimate that would help sales as much
(if not more) than setting a sensible RRP for the machine.
> (Putting flame proof suit on) :-)
As always... ;-)
Cheers,
--
__ _
Stuart Marshall, Programmer. * PGP Key * (_ ._ o _| _ ._ _ _ _|_ _|_
http://www.spidersoft.co.uk/ * Available * __)|_)|(_|(/_| _>(_) | |_
Moderator of comp.sys.acorn announce. | stu...@spidersoft.co.uk
Stuart Marshall
stu...@cybervillage.co.ouch.uk (Stuart Halliday) wrote:
> > Stuart, are you in a position to give us a summary of the current
> > situation. Who is doing what? Is Peter Bondar involved anymore?
> > Is the situation hopeful? It all seems to have gone very quiet.
> Well, the 'Tulip' group seem to be keeping very quiet but I've
> heard that an announcement of some sort is due within 7 days...
After the information leaking out last time who can blame them.
> Good or bad I've no idea!
As more time passes I think people are losing hope... :-(
> > Where are we up to?
> At least two groups that I know of are currently trying to raise
> money to continue Phoebe and therefore RISC OS 4 development
> (which IMHO is the only sensible real-world option).
I couldn't agree more. The "techies" have gotten carried away with
Linux (and the like) solutions. I'm not in any way against these
- but the *majority* of *Acorn* computer users want a new Acorn
Risc OS computer, and if it came to the crunch *I* believe many
would switch to Windows in preference to Linux. The market is
shallow enough without another slice disappearing.
> They don't want their names mentioned because of any false hopes
> this may raise. When they've got any positive news they'll
> release it.
Sounds sensible.
> The trouble with the Internet is that news stories can break and
> collapse within hours of each other and so we get all the churned
> up peaks and troughs.
Again, agreed. Also, after what has already happened so far I
doubt any party would like information to escape out until it is
definate.
> A magazine reader on the other hand just gets the bottom line... :-)
...and usually the wrong one :-)
> someone asked on another thread of the estimate number of Acorn
> users on the Internet. Well, judging by the number of my 'Quantum
> Software' customers who give email addresses. I think a figure of
> around 25% is a fair number.
I'd go along with that. I also think that the majority of Acorn
users who are interested in becoming net users have already done
signed up - and that this figure is unlikely to rise much...
(at least unless a new machine does end up being released).
Stephen Burke
> A magazine reader on the other hand just gets the bottom line... :-)
Not really, you just get a snapshot which was probably out of date the day
after it went to press ...
Tony Houghton
> I couldn't agree more. The "techies" have gotten carried away with
> Linux (and the like) solutions. I'm not in any way against these
> - but the *majority* of *Acorn* computer users want a new Acorn
> Risc OS computer, and if it came to the crunch *I* believe many
> would switch to Windows in preference to Linux. The market is
> shallow enough without another slice disappearing.
I think you're right. From reading this group it's clear that most
people who would buy another Acorn don't care what mess is "under the
bonnet" of the OS, don't call a crash a crash unless it forces them to
replace the house's fuses, and will defend/ignore terrible faults to
the extent that they'll even claim they're an advantage (eg "how do
you get a chance of a coffee break if your computer is usable during
printing?"). They should love Windows.
Greg Hennessy
> don't call a crash a crash unless it forces them to
>replace the house's fuses,
ROFL ! Excellent analogy :-)
greg
Ruth Gunstone
Stuart Marshall <stu...@spidersoft.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <ant271241345YH%4...@cumbrian.demon.co.uk>
> Chris Hughes <ch...@cumbrian.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > I was just reviewing those original Phoebe prices, and thinking about
> > it.
>
> As was I.. what a coincidence :-)
>
> > Full price was 1750 ukp with monitor, minus 500 ukp maximum discount,
> > i.e. now 1250 ukp, then look at the value of the various bits of
> > software that was being included originally, around 500 ukp, meaning
> > the machine would have actually cost 750 ukp. Not a bad price!
>
> To be honest, I have to agree here. However (okay, you knew that was
> coming :-) ), the problem is not that the price itself is bad value for
> money but that it is still a *lot* of money.
>
> I'd honestly say that the price itself is *secondary* to a *good* credit
> scheme. If a good deal something like the 20-20 finance deal can be
> arranged I'd estimate that would help sales as much (if not more) than
> setting a sensible RRP for the machine.
I definitely agree!
My existing RPC was only bought because the 20/20 scheme made it possible
for me. I suspect that any upgrade to Phoebe/Phoenix/Whatever will be
similarly influenced (in 6 months time when I've paid for this machine!!).
--
Ruth Gunstone || A 202MHz StrongARM User. ||
|| Now - can someone build me a computer ||
|| around it please?! ||
======================================================
|| Web-Site: http://www.bolsterstone.demon.co.uk/ ||
|| ||
|| Member of the Wakefield Acorn Computer Group ||
|| (Opinions expressed are MINE ALONE) ||
Dunstan Orchard
<stu...@spidersoft.co.uk> wrote:
> I'd honestly say that the price itself is *secondary* to a *good*
> credit scheme. If a good deal something like the 20-20 finance
> deal can be arranged I'd estimate that would help sales as much
> (if not more) than setting a sensible RRP for the machine.
Too right. I've just finished university and haven't yet got a job, so I'm
in no position to fork out 1750ukp. However, I would like to support the
new development, and would definitely like to buy Pheobe. I'm sure there
must be lots of people in the same position (someone else wrote a similar
article the other day) who want to get involved, but don't have the cash.
I would rather pay a couple hundred quid more in the long term if it meant I
could spread payment over a period of time.
This is one of the reasons I was interested to know more about Chiber as it
sounds like it could work out cheaper. Still, either way I won't be able to
pledge my financial support to a new computer unless there is a sympathetic
payment scheme.
- dunstan
--
dun...@argonet.co.uk
http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/dunstan
Paul Vigay
<URL:mailto:ru...@bolsterstone.demon.com.uk> wrote:
> I definitely agree!
>
> My existing RPC was only bought because the 20/20 scheme made it possible
> for me. I suspect that any upgrade to Phoebe/Phoenix/Whatever will be
> similarly influenced (in 6 months time when I've paid for this machine!!).
Agreed. I will definitely buy a Phoebe, but don't have even 1000.00 lying
around to pay for it, so would opt for a credit scheme if one was available.
--
Paul Vigay Computer Resources Manager,
__\\|//__ Bohunt Community School
Web: http://www.matrix.clara.net (` o-o ') Liphook, Hampshire
BBS: +44 (0)1705 871531 (ansi,8n1) ----ooO-(_)-Ooo---------------------------
All views my own and I reserve the right to change them without warning!
Paul Vigay
<URL:mailto:stu...@spidersoft.co.uk> wrote:
> I couldn't agree more. The "techies" have gotten carried away with
> Linux (and the like) solutions. I'm not in any way against these
> - but the *majority* of *Acorn* computer users want a new Acorn
> Risc OS computer, and if it came to the crunch *I* believe many
> would switch to Windows in preference to Linux. The market is
> shallow enough without another slice disappearing.
Actually, last week I decided to ditch Windows and install Linux on my PC. I
bought the official Red Hat 5.1 distribution which is actually a doddle to
install on a regular PC and one I don't believe should put off too many
people. It's certainly a lot easier to install than ArmLinux on the RPC and
it's pretty much an out of the box installation and shouldn't take more than
about an hour to get Linux up and running with a nice Window manager.
Paul Vigay
<URL:mailto:to...@tcp.co.uk> wrote:
> I think you're right. From reading this group it's clear that most
> people who would buy another Acorn don't care what mess is "under the
> bonnet" of the OS, don't call a crash a crash unless it forces them to
> replace the house's fuses, and will defend/ignore terrible faults to
> the extent that they'll even claim they're an advantage (eg "how do
> you get a chance of a coffee break if your computer is usable during
> printing?"). They should love Windows.
I know I'll probably get flamed for this, but I think it's a valid point. I'm
quite often working non-stop on the computer, thinking "I'll just do this bit
and add that" and then I'll have a break. Some 2 hours later I'm still
programming away, so I love it when I can get the computer to do something
which might take a little while so I can think "Ahhh, that's done" I'll go and
have a cup of tea etc.
A prime example is when compiling a new program. Whilst I'm programming I'm
totally engrossed in it and often completely ignore external things. However,
it's nice to get to the point you can start a compile which might take a
little while and slow tha machine down a bit (the compiler does still
multi-task, but the machine becomes slightly sluggish to use) and I can lean
back, go and have a cup of tea, visit the loo etc and have a nice convenient
stopping point for a break.
It the machine didn't slow down for the odd task, I'd probably never get
around to eating or anything.
:-)
Tony Houghton
I thought you usually complained that printing also made multitasking
computers unusably slow (not that that's true). If you're working on
one project you have little choice but to wait for it to compile,
whether you can multitask or not [1]. Printing's rather a different
matter IMO, and what's to stop you taking a break at "milestones" like
that just because you want to? It's better than being forced to.
[1] RISC OS tends to make a hash of trying to multitask 2 compilation
jobs anyway.
Lionel Smith
cmk...@cix.compulink.co.uk (Greg Hennessy) wrote:
> ROFL ! Excellent analogy :-)
Only if you're drunk! ;-)
Lionel
--
___ ______
/ / / ___/ 6 grandchildren | Sea Vixen for pugnacity
/ / ionel A.| \ mith 4 children & 1 dog | Hunter for elegance
/ /____ __\ | No wonder life is a breeze | Phantom for clout
/_______/ /_____/ lio...@argonet.co.uk | IT Tech. Supp. | ZFC B+2
Join a Microsoft Foundation Class, and go away brainwashed.
Richard Walker
Paul Vigay <pvi...@bohunt.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> Actually, last week I decided to ditch Windows and install Linux on my
> PC. I bought the official Red Hat 5.1 distribution which is actually a
> doddle to install on a regular PC and one I don't believe should put off
> too many people. It's certainly a lot easier to install than ArmLinux on
> the RPC and it's pretty much an out of the box installation and shouldn't
> take more than about an hour to get Linux up and running with a nice
> Window manager.
Hmm. RedHat 5.1, eh?
I've recently installed this very beast on a borrowed P233MMX. Actually,
it was the cheap (no manual/support/box) version, but the content of the CD
is the same - hey 2ukp or 30ukp... I know which! :-)
I amazed myself by getting it to:
a) dual-boot with Windows 95
(hey... GP2, Quake2 and F1RS don't work under Linux!)
b) run a bootp server (which my NC uses)
b) export a directory over NFS (for my NC)
Unfortunately, I have not yet managed to:
a) get it working on the Internet!!!
PPP scripts are fiddly, and it doesn't seem to like my internal modem,
which should be addressable by talking to COM3. It kind of works - but
VERY slowly. ATI1 etc. seems to take forever. :-(
b) install a workable Window Manager (fvwm-95 stinks!)
KDE and Gnome (Win 95 lookalikes?) are on the CD. Should I install
those? Or is there something nicer?
c) Get the monitor working at 800x600 or 1024x768 and stop the bloomin'
'pan around a virtual 1280x1024 in 640x480' effect!!!
And, I'm also not sure if I like this 'RedHat' distribution at all. It had
a very strong 'Microsoft Windows' smell about it. Know what I mean? Is
SuSE/Debian any better? (a question for the experts!)
Oh, and, looking at http://www.redhat.com, there's a MASSIVE list of RPMs
which I should apparently download because they contain lots of (mainly
'security') 'fixes' to certain parts of the OS/apps. Should I bother?
It's a big job!
Hmm. I need an expert. Or should I have bought the manual? Or a nice
book? (50 quid - yikes!)
--
Richard.
"I wanna hold your hand, I wanna hold your hand."
Thomas Leonard
> In article <slrn73m10...@tonyh.tcp.co.uk>, Tony Houghton
> <URL:mailto:to...@tcp.co.uk> wrote:
> > I think you're right. From reading this group it's clear that most
> > people who would buy another Acorn don't care what mess is "under the
> > bonnet" of the OS, don't call a crash a crash unless it forces them to
> > replace the house's fuses, and will defend/ignore terrible faults to
> > the extent that they'll even claim they're an advantage (eg "how do
> > you get a chance of a coffee break if your computer is usable during
> > printing?"). They should love Windows.
> I know I'll probably get flamed for this, but I think it's a valid point. I'm
> quite often working non-stop on the computer, thinking "I'll just do this bit
> and add that" and then I'll have a break. Some 2 hours later I'm still
> programming away, so I love it when I can get the computer to do something
> which might take a little while so I can think "Ahhh, that's done" I'll go and
> have a cup of tea etc.
> It the machine didn't slow down for the odd task, I'd probably never get
> around to eating or anything.
So set an alarm to go off every half hour saying "Take a break". Make it
freeze the computer if you want (freezing Linux is hard, but you can
stop your X server for a while quite easily).
But at least give people the choice - I might *need* to do something
*now* (because I have to catch a bus / meet a deadline / whatever).
Thomas Leonard
--
tal...@ecs.soton.ac.uk
2nd year computer science
RISC OS freeware to download at http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~tal197/
Manuel Timmers
<URL:mailto:stu...@cybervillage.co.ouch.uk> wrote:
> In article <f89dbb9a48%R...@alphabeta.demon.co.uk>, R...@alphabeta.demon.co.uk
> says...
> Any Phoebe released would *have* to be based on Acorn's one wouldn't it?
...OK, Stuart. Which corners are about to be cut?
> I can't speak for these companies planning to rescue Phoebe but Acorn have a
> 99% virtually finished product and the spec of that is very widely know.
This is the most strange of all things. Why stop when when the product
as practically finished.... weird, weird, weird....
> It should be obvious to anyone that for the future development of the RISC
> OS computer market that to develop 32-bit RISC OS, multi-processors, further
> enhancements to RISC OS, etc. will require healthy sales of the RiscPC2 and
> put quite simply if that doesn't happen then probably neither will any
> future RISC OS developments. IMHO.
This is in direct contradiction to what Acorn was formerly steering
into. It was told from the beginning that Phoebe would be a computer for
the enthousiast market which IS a small market. So how are/were they
going to realise "healty sales" when you ain't got more than a few 1000
"enthousiasts" with enough cash to spend?
By abandoning the (continental) market again like they did in 1987!
Actually they've gone even a step further... they abandonned the entire
Acorn community now! Djeez, what a bunch a stupid...
IMHO we should HANG Stan Boland for this...
> If the RiscPC2 is released then all those "Acorn users committed to the
> Acorn market" still using a A30x0 should spend some money on a new computer
> and give the hardware and software Acorn market some real support!
If Acorn didn't "pre-"announce this Phoebe MORE than a year before then
many more ppl would have bought even a Risc PC today! How many dealers
feel sacked after waiting for so long while their market was killed off
more than year ago, later spending thousands of pounds on ACTUALL
advertisments for a new product which finally WOULD have increased sales
for them and then Acorn easily abandon the whole thing!
Secondly: Haven't anybody at Acorn realised that their hardware is
SIMPLY OVERPRICED!!! The worst thing is that MANY ppl have offered help
to decrease the cost of building Risc OS computers (e.g. talk to Edwin
Pang from Proton for actual facts!!!) but Acorn wants astronomical
amounts of cash for a licence to produce computers. Odly everybody is
talking about how cheap ARM-cpu's are, How cheap and how great that
ARM-support chips are etc... but yet the overal retail price of ANY
Acorn machine is way above their actual value... and then you wonder:
WHY can't ppl buy new Acorn's every 3 or 5 years...
> > I wonder how many others felt the same. Perhaps a comment box at the
> > bottom of the web page may elicit some response.
>
> So why mention it in a message to this newsgroup and not email me directly?
> I don't read *every* posting you know? :-)
Look I do appreciate your efforts in saving the platform but why isn't
Acorn helping us a bit. WE spend thousands of pounds in hard AND
software for this platform unlike ANY USER on WIntel or Apple systems.
So why are they negative to us... by not delivering their promisses
(even the Clan newsletter is FULL of promisses), signing deals with ppl
WE support (e.g. P. Bondar) and then sweeping away that deal as if it
never excisted... What kind of arrogant assholes are they?
> BTW.
> So far I've had over 600 people filling in the form....
600 X 999 UKP = 599400 UKP (that's about 35 million Bfr or 12 million
guldens) for that amount even Proton could build Phoebes!!!
> That was after I removed some of the daft postings from technofreaks and sad
> people who thought sending 5 or 10 postings was fun!
>
> Most people want the Phoebe as soon as possible of course and this is very
> encouraging with only a few wanting the Moon on a stick!
Don't forget that: soon = before the end of THIS year for most of us.
> The main delays around at the moment seems to be in the raising of a couple
> of million pounds to establish a viable business. Banks and the like seem to
> take their time over arranging this as you can imagine....
>
Why would you do that. Pass the deal on to excisting companies. Why
doesn't Acorn collaborate with Psion? Why doesn't they step to the
European community (again), the British goverment (I'm sure those awards
still mean anything...), for god's sake step to Richard Branson if
needed!
BTW. Here's the :-) <--- when needed.
Regards,
Manuel
--
Manuel Timmers, StarLight Corp., email star...@innet.be
Personal WWW-pages at http://www.club.innet.be/~year0332/
StarLight Corp. WWW-pages at http://www.whib.be/starcorp
**** Acorn Risc OS Systems: Seeing is Believing! ****
Rob Speed
<star...@innet.be> writes
>
>IMHO we should HANG Stan Boland for this...
Hear hear, I'll just nip and get the portable gallows -
Damn and bother - they're industry standard and so keep falling
over!
--
Rob Speed
Vitesse Systems Laboratories.
Leeds, Yorkshire, England.
Simon Elzinga
<snip>
>
> > I can't speak for these companies planning to rescue Phoebe but Acorn have a
> > 99% virtually finished product and the spec of that is very widely know.
>
> This is the most strange of all things. Why stop when when the product
> as practically finished.... weird, weird, weird....
>
Probably they need an extra million pound to produce the phoebes!
Someway to do this, they haven't the money for this, so they quit with the
production, redunce the workstation devision, sad for those people, quitting
the acorn world show and going down under as well within a 14 months, not
necessary, then Peter Bondar Must return, then acorn is saved, otherwise
with Stan Booland as ceo, Acorn is D O O M E D FOREVER !!! IMHO.:-(((((((((((
I have even called the man for an answer on this, no answer at all.
Can you see, what a bad SERVICE that man is giving to Acorn Dealers oversees.:-(
> > It should be obvious to anyone that for the future development of the RISC
> > OS computer market that to develop 32-bit RISC OS, multi-processors, further
> > enhancements to RISC OS, etc. will require healthy sales of the RiscPC2 and
> > put quite simply if that doesn't happen then probably neither will any
> > future RISC OS developments. IMHO.
>
And what about Galileo then ???
> This is in direct contradiction to what Acorn was formerly steering
> into. It was told from the beginning that Phoebe would be a computer for
> the enthousiast market which IS a small market. So how are/were they
> going to realise "healty sales" when you ain't got more than a few 1000
> "enthousiasts" with enough cash to spend?
>
> By abandoning the (continental) market again like they did in 1987!
> Actually they've gone even a step further... they abandonned the entire
> Acorn community now! Djeez, what a bunch a stupid...
>
> IMHO we should HANG Stan Boland for this...
SHALL WE GO THEN TO Cambridge ???
<snip>
> If Acorn didn't "pre-"announce this Phoebe MORE than a year before then
> many more ppl would have bought even a Risc PC today! How many dealers
> feel sacked after waiting for so long while their market was killed off
> more than year ago, later spending thousands of pounds on ACTUALL
> advertisments for a new product which finally WOULD have increased sales
> for them and then Acorn easily abandon the whole thing!
SHIT !!!
>
> Secondly: Haven't anybody at Acorn realised that their hardware is
> SIMPLY OVERPRICED!!!
You damm sure about that !!!
<