Sad
Danny Monaghan
I saddens me deeply, after using Acorn machines for 16 years, that I can
no longer justify or even get excited at the thought of buying a new
Acorn computer.
I wanted to buy a RiscPC but, with having a family that comes first,
could never afford one. As time passed and I started to use the PC on my
desk at work more and more I began to realise that the PC, while not as
slick to use as RiscOS, is a very usable tool and there is nothing you
cannot do on it that you can on an Acorn (and don't mention music
notation because it won't be long before Acorn is overhauled in that as
well - and anyway I have no use for that).
I took a step back from my obsession with Acorn about 12 months ago and
I can now see the whole elephant and not just grey (or should that be
mammoth). It's not funny really but the more you shout about how P2100
is going to give Acorn a future, the more is sounds like the cries of a
dying swan.
No new software and decreasing support for existing titles, an ever
decreasing user base, a ridiculous price for a new machine that
completely fails to hit the mark required all add towards my sorrow
because I now know for definite that I will never possess a new Acorn
computer again.
I don't want flames - this is not why I wrote this. I will remain a fan
of Acorn computers for ever (despite what that prat wrote in to the
letters page of AU last month about fans) and I will continue to use
mine where the software I have does the job better, but it will become a
fond memory in the future. I use Macs, PC's with 3.11 and 95, SGI
machines with UNIX and Acorns, so I know what works well and what
doesn't. I'll put up with M$ crap OS's because I have no other choice -
unless I want to throw my hard earned money away. Sorry, but I'm not
into that.
Danny :-(
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+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
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Ś Sheffield University TelevisionŚ
Ś 5 Favell Road, Sheffield, England, S3 7QXŚ
Ś Ś
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Astute Graphics
In article <357D2F...@sheffield.ac.uk>, Danny Monaghan
<URL:mailto:D.Mon...@sheffield.ac.uk> wrote:
> I saddens me deeply
<snip the lot>
Exactly, what do you use your other machines for?
Nicholas of Astute Graphics
Andrew John Wall
> I wanted to buy a RiscPC but, with having a family that comes first,
> could never afford one. As time passed and I started to use the PC on my
> desk at work more and more I began to realise that the PC, while not as
> slick to use as RiscOS, is a very usable tool and there is nothing you
> cannot do on it that you can on an Acorn (and don't mention music
> notation because it won't be long before Acorn is overhauled in that as
> well - and anyway I have no use for that).
Maybe this is where you're going wrong. If you never bought a RiscPC I
assume you are still using an A5000 or something like that. Well, I can tell
you a RiscPC beats the PANTS off an A5000 and indeed any machine before it.
And I have a feeling Pheobe will as well.
> I took a step back from my obsession with Acorn about 12 months ago and
> I can now see the whole elephant and not just grey (or should that be
> mammoth). It's not funny really but the more you shout about how P2100
> is going to give Acorn a future, the more is sounds like the cries of a
> dying swan.
I still use an Acorn and will continue to use an Acorn because I don't want
to put up with Windows. Pure and simple. I've seen it in operation at Uni
and I've seen my friends using it and it stinks in my opinion. I use an
Acorn because it is intuative and easy to use and I know whats going on. It
does what I want it to do without crashing. I bought my RiscPC three years
ago and all it would take is a StrongArm upgrade and I would still be up
there with the rest. Can that be said about a PC?
Anyway, in my opinion it is all going to change if (and they probably will)
Acorn get Java right. Go over to the PC if you want. But with Java and
RiscOS, I'm going to have a machine with a lot of software and a lot of
*style*.
Cheers,
Andy
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Paul Vigay
In article <na.4eabcc4853....@no-spam.co.uk>, Andrew John Wall
<URL:mailto:andy...@no-spam.co.uk> wrote:
[snip loads of valid points I agree with]
> Anyway, in my opinion it is all going to change if (and they probably will)
> Acorn get Java right. Go over to the PC if you want. But with Java and
> RiscOS, I'm going to have a machine with a lot of software and a lot of
> *style*.
Hear Hear!!
--
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Danny Monaghan
Andrew John Wall wrote:
>
> Maybe this is where you're going wrong. If you never bought a RiscPC I
> assume you are still using an A5000 or something like that. Well, I can tell
> you a RiscPC beats the PANTS off an A5000 and indeed any machine before it.
> And I have a feeling Pheobe will as well.
I have used RiscPC's extensively because I used to work for MicroPower
in Leeds. I am well aware of their power and capabilities, but it still
doesn't change the state of the Acorn scene.
> I still use an Acorn and will continue to use an Acorn because I don't want
> to put up with Windows. Pure and simple. I've seen it in operation at Uni
> and I've seen my friends using it and it stinks in my opinion. I use an
> Acorn because it is intuative and easy to use and I know whats going on. It
> does what I want it to do without crashing. I bought my RiscPC three years
> ago and all it would take is a StrongArm upgrade and I would still be up
> there with the rest. Can that be said about a PC?
I totally agree with all this - if I didn't I wouldn't be sad about how
I feel, although having used Windows everyday for the last three years
has softened my hatred of is to distain. I have to say though that a
RiscPC bought three years agout being replaced now with Phoebe would
have put you back about the same as buying 2 PC's 18 months apart.
> Anyway, in my opinion it is all going to change if (and they probably will)
> Acorn get Java right. Go over to the PC if you want. But with Java and
> RiscOS, I'm going to have a machine with a lot of software and a lot of
> *style*.
>
I would dearly love this to the case. I can think of nothing better than
saying I got it wrong. However the cost and spec of Phoebe in way off
target and this is not going to be the saviour of Acorn. Even if they
flourish as a technology company and continue to produce a machine for
our niche - it will never be anything but a tiny, insular (sp?) poorly
supported, in terms of new developments, market.
You have to remember that I have reached this point because I have been
using machines other than Acorn, and this has made me realise that there
is more to a computer that a brilliant, if a little dated, OS.
Danny
Danny Monaghan
Astute Graphics wrote:
>
> Exactly, what do you use your other machines for?
>
SGI machines running Matador, Power Animator and Maya (I am not one of
the graphic designers, I'm an editor/engineer)
Mac's running Avid Media composer 400 and 1000 and ProTools.
PC's running under Win95 for various multimedia applications including
authoring software, MPEG, Adobe stuff etc.
We are running some fairly meaty machines with this lot.
As you may have gathered we are a broadcast production unit.
As an addition to this Acorn are now losing the little toehold they had
in our marketplace because Eidos have announced a new editing system
based on NT with Optima's future appearing to have disappeared.
Slowly it wittles away, I'm afraid :-(
Ben Jefferys
Danny Monaghan wrote:
>
> Astute Graphics wrote:
> >
> > Exactly, what do you use your other machines for?
>
> SGI machines running Matador
I'll get working on a port of these then :)
Re: your post, yes, totally. It kind of looks like the middle of the
end ATM.
Bye!
Ben.
George Buchanan
> I saddens me deeply, after using Acorn machines for 16 years, that I can
> no longer justify or even get excited at the thought of buying a new
> Acorn computer.
>
idiots shouting "no new software" - well, perhaps R-Comp, ourselves,
Astute graphics et al are just writing grafitti on a wall, but I
*think* that we write software, oh and then there's Spacetech,
Iota, and many others - sorry for the hordes left out...
--
George Buchanan, Dalriada Data Technology
74 Greville Road, Warwick, CV34 5PJ
Phone/Fax: [+44] (0)1926 492459
Andrew John Wall
In article <357E66...@sheffield.ac.uk>, Danny Monaghan
<D.Mon...@sheffield.ac.uk> wrote:
> I would dearly love this to the case. I can think of nothing better than
> saying I got it wrong. However the cost and spec of Phoebe in way off
> target and this is not going to be the saviour of Acorn. Even if they
> flourish as a technology company and continue to produce a machine for
> our niche - it will never be anything but a tiny, insular (sp?) poorly
> supported, in terms of new developments, market.
The way I see it is this. Acorn Risc machines never really became the great
sucess (In terms of sales at least) that they could have done. Why? Because
of the perceived lack of software. Well, with Java there will be that
software and when it is a case of a PC and an Acorn having the same quality
of software but with very different OS's - one stable, intuative, effient,
and well thought out, the other unstable, very ineffient and quite simply an
OS that treats the user as a dummy without understanding that people *learn*
I have a feeling that people will start to look towards Acorn as a viable
alternative.
People have chosen PC's because they percieve them to be the industry
standard and have decided that Acorn are not. When Java comes this will
change totally - the industry standard will be Java. It will make the
computer industry much more democratic - the industry will be leveled again
and it will no longer be the monolithic beast that it has become in the last
five years.
> You have to remember that I have reached this point because I have been
> using machines other than Acorn, and this has made me realise that there
> is more to a computer that a brilliant, if a little dated, OS.
That is ignoring my point. If you remember I said that I use PC's at college
and one of my friends has a Pentium. The ones at College are terrible and my
mates one is crashing all the time. (In fact it was me that managed to sort
out one of his problems a few months ago after Windows and DOS just went
into a circular routine of failing to load up then trying again, and again
and again, etc). At college I use AutoCAD (2D only), which in my opinion
stinks. Although it is relativly easy to learn (and its powerfull) it is
*not* intuative. You have to learn it. RiscCAD I have no problem with - even
if there is something I havn't done before on the package I can work out how
to do it.
No, Acorns are still the computers for me. I use them because they're good
for what I want to do. Lets turn it around the other way - Would I be
sticking to Windows if the rest of the world was using Acorns? No way!
Mark Milligan
In article <357E68...@sheffield.ac.uk>, Danny Monaghan
<URL:mailto:D.Mon...@sheffield.ac.uk> wrote:
> Astute Graphics wrote:
> >
> > Exactly, what do you use your other machines for?
> >
>
> the graphic designers, I'm an editor/engineer)
> authoring software, MPEG, Adobe stuff etc.
> We are running some fairly meaty machines with this lot.
>
Hmm, what a lot of boxes, obviously there is still room out there for
more than one type of machine, it stresses the point that there is no
ideal single solution, no matter what the various manufacturers tell
us.
--
Mark Milligan Using 202 MHz StrongARM powered RiscPC (-:
Who's just waiting for Intels next oscar winning advert.!
Danny Monaghan
Mark Milligan wrote:
> Hmm, what a lot of boxes, obviously there is still room out there for
> more than one type of machine, it stresses the point that there is no
> ideal single solution, no matter what the various manufacturers tell
> us.
>
Except that all these software packages are now about or have already
been released under NT. The PC's power has all but caught up. It's not
just Acorn in a pickle. Why else would SGI announce they are dropping
UNIX in favout of NT?
DM
Danny Monaghan
George Buchanan wrote:
> > No new software and decreasing support for existing titles
> ...complete toss, sorry, but I am sick, sore and tired of complete
> idiots shouting "no new software" - well, perhaps R-Comp, ourselves,
> Astute graphics et al are just writing grafitti on a wall, but I
> *think* that we write software, oh and then there's Spacetech,
> Iota, and many others - sorry for the hordes left out...
>
George, as the representative of a company, I would appriciate if you
didn't refer to me as an idiot. After all, I am still a potential
customer. As far as software goes - if the best we can get excited about
is the port of a four year old game then I wouldn't shout too loudly.
Maybe I should have said no new 'significant' software.
I apologise to those of you who are still producing software if you are
fed up of us 'idiots'. I get the feeling that there has been an awful
lot of us in the last 2 years.
If I had the money and felt as I did 12-18 months ago, I would buy a
Phoebe. The last 12-18 months is the factor that has changed my mind
along with the cost of Phoebe. Just because I choose to buy a new PC,
not Acorn, doesn't stop me from continuing to use the machine I consider
best for the job I am doing. Guess what - the Acorn will still get used.
Danny
Astute Graphics
In article <357EEB...@sheffield.ac.uk>, Danny Monaghan
<URL:mailto:D.Mon...@sheffield.ac.uk> wrote:
> George Buchanan wrote:
> > > No new software and decreasing support for existing titles
> > ...complete toss, sorry, but I am sick, sore and tired of complete
> > idiots shouting "no new software" - well, perhaps R-Comp, ourselves,
> > Astute graphics et al are just writing grafitti on a wall, but I
> > *think* that we write software, oh and then there's Spacetech,
> > Iota, and many others - sorry for the hordes left out...
> >
>
> George, as the representative of a company, I would appriciate if you
> didn't refer to me as an idiot. After all, I am still a potential
> customer. As far as software goes - if the best we can get excited about
> is the port of a four year old game then I wouldn't shout too loudly.
> Maybe I should have said no new 'significant' software.
George - as a representative of the human race - would you please
just /look/ at the Acorn scene around you. What would you determine to
be a significant bit of software?
Would you say that (and this is just one area of current development
in the acorn arena);
- A vector application that actually cares about what the end printed
result resembles (don't even think of mentioning Illustrator, Corel
et al...)
- An application that can work alongside all other 'industry standard'
machines without being upset and crashing...
- An application that costs 1/10 of that of its nearest true competitor
(ArtPro on the Macs)...
- A product that was designed for what it is /meant/ to do rather than
a brash manner of 'Oh, I think we can fit 100 icons (animated for no
good reason) on the screen - just don't worry about the actual
drawing'...
- An application that if you come into technical difficulty, you can
actually contact the creators for the best advice and service...
(I'll give you a hint - it's Project name is Avante)
You've really got me started here. Astute Graphics is just one of a
number of smaller companies that are developing exiting new software
for the Acorn platform. And sorry, no, it will not support A5000's as
they are over six (+) years old. How many 2/386s are supported out
there? Let's face it - you are looking at the initial outlay cost of
Phoebe, which admittedly is high in comparison to a low quality PC.
But then, virtually /every/ Acorn has been more expensive that the
equiv PC to date. The difference is that I can still run my graphics
business with success on a four year old machine and look at my
clients in the eyes when I give them the final result.
Now go and buy your PC - and next year when it is out of date, buy
another, 'cos Windows 99 (ish) will NOT run on it. Then the year
after buy another one. And in four year's time when your are on
your third/fourth computer, we'll compare /real/ running costs.
> I apologise to those of you who are still producing software if you are
> fed up of us 'idiots'. I get the feeling that there has been an awful
> lot of us in the last 2 years.
Just one in particular ;-)
> If I had the money and felt as I did 12-18 months ago, I would buy a
> Phoebe. The last 12-18 months is the factor that has changed my mind
> along with the cost of Phoebe. Just because I choose to buy a new PC,
> not Acorn, doesn't stop me from continuing to use the machine I consider
> best for the job I am doing. Guess what - the Acorn will still get used.
We all go through financial troughs - it's called life. And now that
you've committed yourself (or that's the tone you've used) to the era
of PCs, those computer finance outgoings are just going to grow and grow
and grow. Might as well mortgage your house now...
All the best with your venture, but please open your eyes a bit more
before judging how a whole market (that you are obviously not /that/
familiar with) is faring.
It's late - I've had my moan.
Over and out.
Nick of Astute Graphics
Martin Birchall
In article <357D2F...@sheffield.ac.uk>,
Danny Monaghan <D.Mon...@sheffield.ac.uk> wrote:
> I saddens me deeply, after using Acorn machines for 16 years, that I can
> no longer justify or even get excited at the thought of buying a new
> Acorn computer.
> I wanted to buy a RiscPC but, with having a family that comes first,
> could never afford one. As time passed and I started to use the PC on my
> desk at work more and more I began to realise that the PC, while not as
> slick to use as RiscOS, is a very usable tool and there is nothing you
> cannot do on it that you can on an Acorn (and don't mention music
> notation because it won't be long before Acorn is overhauled in that as
> well - and anyway I have no use for that).
> I took a step back from my obsession with Acorn about 12 months ago and
> I can now see the whole elephant and not just grey (or should that be
> mammoth). It's not funny really but the more you shout about how P2100
> is going to give Acorn a future, the more is sounds like the cries of a
> dying swan.
*Sad*ly I have to agree with you and I empathise and sympathise with the
constraints family imposes. And the points you made face the reality of
the current situation. Buying an Acorn simply because of its OS or its
speed cannot be justified when you need to achieve certain things which
Acorns cannot do. *Perhaps* Acorn will remedy some of the shortfalls in
due course; but it would be naive to purchase on the strength of a *wish*
list! [Serious shortfalls for me, include the inability to print hi res
colour pictures taken from a digital camera with true colour because Acorn
drivers are not up to it; lack of support for Kodak picture format;
complications with producing CD-RW disks that are wholly compatible with
the PC market; and the general cost of peripherals, with plentiful
software, as against PC alternatives].
Like Danny, I made the difficult decision to take a close look at Windross
at Xmas96. The OS is a monster it's true; but IMHO it also brings
alternative ways of achieving your objectives which are, as I have tried
to show, not available in the Acorn environment. Recent threads on Acorn v
Windross in schools don't seem to focus on this?
BTW, I disagree with Danny's point about *never* buying a new Acorn. The
whole point of my post is NEVER say never. *Sad*ly, this also applies to
buying Windross. :-(
Martin
--
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\ | _| |\/ |\__ \ / Birchall, Berry, Suggett, Pimbley
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Danny Monaghan
Astute Graphics wrote:
> George - as a representative of the human race - would you please
> just /look/ at the Acorn scene around you. What would you determine to
> be a significant bit of software?
>
Nick, who are you ranting at here, me (Danny) or George? If you're ranting at George then you would
appear to moaning at someone who is in your corner of the ring, if it's me ....
Either way it's not vey Astute.
..snip..
> there? Let's face it - you are looking at the initial outlay cost of
> Phoebe, which admittedly is high in comparison to a low quality PC.
> But then, virtually /every/ Acorn has been more expensive that the
> equiv PC to date.
The difference is that in the past Acorn machines have been comparable with the top end spec PC's
if not better. Phoebe would appear to be well down the pile this time.
> The difference is that I can still run my graphics
> business with success on a four year old machine and look at my
> clients in the eyes when I give them the final result.
>
I will be able to do what I want to do on a P166 - coming in at cost of between Ł700 and Ł900 and
the software is about Ł400. To do this on an Acorn (what I WANT TO DO - sorry to shout but some
people have missed the point that I still will and want to use my Acorn's) will cost me Ł1400 + a
monitor for Phoebe, Ł200 ish for an interface and about Ł150 for software. I'm sorry but it simply
doesn't compare - I can replace a PC at twice the rate of an Acorn for no greater cost. That
argument simply doesn't work anymore.
> Now go and buy your PC - and next year when it is out of date, buy
> another, 'cos Windows 99 (ish) will NOT run on it. Then the year
> after buy another one. And in four year's time when your are on
> your third/fourth computer, we'll compare /real/ running costs.
>
I won't need to buy every year. The P166 on my desk at work has been performing for over a year at
speeds that are still more than fast enough. It runs win3.11 because of the network here at the
Uni, but it win run win95 and win98 if I wanted it to. When the network here goes on to NT
soon, my machine will run that as well. It's quite clever really. It's funny but these are all the
things I used to say to my PC owing friends. The thing is, rationlising a situation is sometimes
more a case of telling 'rational lies' (do you get the pun?) because you refuse to accept the true.
Just my feeling that's all.
> > I apologise to those of you who are still producing software if you are
> > fed up of us 'idiots'. I get the feeling that there has been an awful
> > lot of us in the last 2 years.
>
> Just one in particular ;-)
>
Do yourself a favour and grow up ;-)
If you can't accept that many of us are leaving the fold either totally or partially then you have
little chance in the real world. A smillie - ohh okay, but things said in jest and all that.... Do
you get my drift?
..snip..
> All the best with your venture, but please open your eyes a bit more
> before judging how a whole market (that you are obviously not /that/
> familiar with) is faring.
>
Ha ha ha. What I joke. My 6 year old can tell how the Acorn market is fairing and all he does is
look at the width of AU every month. A smaller number of smaller companies are getting a good share
of a smaller market that's what happening. It maybe a good market for you et al, and that is good,
but the WHOLE market is shrinking. If it wasn't do you think the likes of Computer Concepts would
have pulled out.
I think it's me that should be wishing you all the best, after all I've had my eyes open wide for
over a year now.
Martin Birchall
In article <357F98...@sheffield.ac.uk>,
Danny Monaghan <D.Mon...@sheffield.ac.uk> wrote:
> I will be able to do what I want to do on a P166 - coming in at cost of
> between £700 and £900 and the software is about £400. To do this on an
> Acorn (what I WANT TO DO - sorry to shout but some people have missed
> the point that I still will and want to use my Acorn's) will cost me
> £1400 + a monitor for Phoebe, £200 ish for an interface and about £150
> for software. I'm sorry but it simply doesn't compare - I can replace a
> PC at twice the rate of an Acorn for no greater cost. That argument
> simply doesn't work anymore.
Actually, your quotes are *well* out of date. If you look around, at very
small dealers, you can get a PC *very* cheap. In March I bought a P200
MMX, Win95, 32Mb RAM, with monitor with 2 yr guarantee, brand new, built
to order in a week, delivered and set up and running, for **580 UKP**
This included a 4.3 Gb hard disk! This was for my son to use for
recreation. I couldn't afford an Acorn for the same purpose :-( At this
price, what *can* you do? I can report that after 3 months, it hasn't
crashed, is a fast machine and superb value for money - despite all the
vadid arguments against Windross which people rightly post. Sadly, I am
trying face facts rather than let emotional feelings about Acorn make my
decisions. After being an Acorn User for 16 years, believe me, it's
difficult to accept....but its the real world!
Consider this: 18 months ago you could get a P150 PC for about 1100 UKP.
An Arm710 40Mhz weighed in at £1299 (Jan 97 Archive Mag, p2). At that time
I would have gone for an Acorn with the price differential of 200UKP the
Acorn was a better bet for all the reasons we know. However, now, a
StrongArm SRP41 costs 1518 UKP (CJE Micros Price List May 98, p5) as
against the P200 PC at 580 UKP. A differential of nearly 1000 UKP! IMHO,
we have got to the point where serious money counts more than OSs, speed
or ease of use. For my money (quite literally!), Phoebe will need to be a
fantastic machine for me to buy it, I'm *very SAD* to say!
[No flames intended - just trying to be objective].
Andrew John Wall
In article <ant102257d07%wu&@astutegrfx.demon.co.uk>, Astute Graphics
<ni...@astutegrfx.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> You've really got me started here. Astute Graphics is just one of a
> number of smaller companies that are developing exiting new software
> for the Acorn platform.
This is the thing that gets me started. Just because a company is *small*
doesn't mean it can't come up with quality goods. Look at Acorn.... :-)
Astute Graphics
> Either way it's not vey Astute.
No - that's because I just /had/ to respond to continuous negative
remarks.
And before go any further - yes the /classic/ Acorn market is
currently shrinking. However, that doesn't mean that the Acorn
RiscOS platform has no future. You just never know what may
come out of it. Always a risk, but one worth taking in my view.
> ..snip..
>
> > there? Let's face it - you are looking at the initial outlay cost of
> > Phoebe, which admittedly is high in comparison to a low quality PC.
> > But then, virtually /every/ Acorn has been more expensive that the
> > equiv PC to date.
>
> The difference is that in the past Acorn machines have been comparable
> with the top end spec PC's if not better. Phoebe would appear to be
> well down the pile this time.
I dispute that. Pheobe in /real/ user terms will perform (in may line
of work) graphics tasks as well as a 400MHz Windows machine. It's a bit
like the anology between American and European cars. Just because the
Americans opt to go for 8 litre engines as compared to 2 litre ones in
Europe, doesn't mean they go faster or are more effective. Just more
thirsty...
It's not the power that's important - it's what you do with it.
To show that I'm not completely closed minded on this, I've worked for
some considerable time on WinNT 3.5 workstations, and found them good,
reliable and effective. As compared to Win95...
It's just that I feel, as others do, that MS feel that the way to crack
open a nut open is to use a sledge hammer.
Suppose it depends which way you prefer to operate.
> > The difference is that I can still run my graphics
> > business with success on a four year old machine and look at my
> > clients in the eyes when I give them the final result.
> >
>
> I will be able to do what I want to do on a P166 - coming in at cost
> of between £700 and £900 and the software is about £400. To do this
> on an Acorn (what I WANT TO DO - sorry to shout but some people have
> missed the point that I still will and want to use my Acorn's) will
> cost me £1400 + a monitor for Phoebe, £200 ish for an interface and
> about £150 for software. I'm sorry but it simply doesn't compare - I
> can replace a PC at twice the rate of an Acorn for no greater cost
> That argument simply doesn't work anymore.
>
Apart from the P166 not being around four years ago when RiscPC came
out, a 166 is not much use anymore in terms of using the latest PC
graphics apps. You'd be better to look at 300MHz+ machines and upgrade
your software at high cost each year.
Looking at it chronologically, when the RiscPC came out you would have
bought a 66MHz 486 or Pentium.
A year later you would have had to upgrade virtually all hardware to a
full 120MHz Pent spec. just to run Windows 95 (note no real constructive
advantage - just more icons).
Two years later (a year ago), this would have had to have MMX technology
/swiftly/ followed by a Pent Pro with at least twice as much memory to
64Meg, but preferably 128 or 256 depending on the graphics software.
This year it's 400MHz, but as 500MHz are the ones to wait for, expect to
fork out soon as well as debugging Win98 for MS.
> > Now go and buy your PC - and next year when it is out of date, buy
> > another, 'cos Windows 99 (ish) will NOT run on it. Then the year
> > after buy another one. And in four year's time when your are on
> > your third/fourth computer, we'll compare /real/ running costs.
> >
>
> I won't need to buy every year. The P166 on my desk at work has been
> performing for over a year at speeds that are still more than fast
> enough. It runs win3.11 because of the network here at the Uni, but it
> win run win95 and win98 if I wanted it to. When the network here goes
> on to NT soon, my machine will run that as well. It's quite clever
> really. It's funny but these are all the things I used to say to my PC
> owing friends. The thing is, rationlising a situation is sometimes
> more a case of telling 'rational lies' (do you get the pun?) because
> you refuse to accept the true.
> Just my feeling that's all.
I'm finding it pretty hard to find any decent software to run on Win3.1
anymore, especially graphics stuff. Depends what you want to use it for.
<snip rest of personal slagging off - it was late last night when I
wrote it...>
I still wish you all the best with your move over, Danny (sincerely
as I do note that PCs do have a number of advantages over Acorns),
but I still consider your views to be a bit outward. As I suppose you
find mine.
Ted Lepley
In article <357D2F...@sheffield.ac.uk>, Danny Monaghan
<URL:mailto:D.Mon...@sheffield.ac.uk> wrote:
> I saddens me deeply, after using Acorn machines for 16 years, that I
> can no longer justify or even get excited at the thought of buying a
> new Acorn computer.
>
Isn't it true that this situation applies to all flavours of general
purpose desk top computers? I am not aware of any startling new software,
or developments of software, for any platform which I would classify as
a personal computer. In this connection I exclude the addition of
'features' which, by and large, are not necessary or even desireable
but are just 'brownie points' for sales promotion purposes.
The Internet software side has been perhaps the only exception and
we are currently in the middle of a crop of software for this function
as the latest craze, but even this is now slowing down.
The fundamental needs of users of general purpose desk tops have been
met (i.e. WP, DTP, Spreadsheets, Database, limited graphics) and there
is little development needed for general purpose (as opposed to
specialist, limited market) users.
Machines and devlopments for graphics, audio, video etc. are really
dedicated sytems, not desk top personal computers. PCs used for these
systems are, almost invariably, used for specific functions only,
not WP,DTP,etc. Even most PCs used in commerce are used for single
purpose tasks such as WP or accounting and do not use the many
packages supplied as standard.
The set top box is a realisation of this and directs development to
the small, cheap, mass production consumer market for which there is
already a supply of software applications (other than OSs etc.).
Basically the all singing, general purpose, do anything, machine is near
the end of its development. Only games provide the limitless development
that the public-at-large will consider necessary and on which they will
continue to spend money.
Ted.
--
ZFC S+ ted...@argonet.co.uk
Clan member East London. UK
Using Voyager V.1.18
Ernst Dinkla
In article <ant10094...@dalriad.demon.co.uk>, George Buchanan
<URL:mailto:g...@dalriad.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <357D2F...@sheffield.ac.uk>, Danny Monaghan
> <URL:mailto:D.Mon...@sheffield.ac.uk> wrote:
> > I saddens me deeply, after using Acorn machines for 16 years, that I can
> > no longer justify or even get excited at the thought of buying a new
> > Acorn computer.
> >
> > No new software and decreasing support for existing titles
> idiots shouting "no new software" - well, perhaps R-Comp, ourselves,
> Astute graphics et al are just writing grafitti on a wall, but I
> *think* that we write software, oh and then there's Spacetech,
> Iota, and many others - sorry for the hordes left out...
We know there's new software for the Acorns. And I'm not buying a
P...... so there must be some money left to invest. Whether not
buying a P...... now, means I won't buy Acorn software in the future
is something I can't predict. Maybe P...... will drop in price and
rise in specification. For the near future I think more people will
have similar thoughts.
Ernst
--
Ernst Dinkla Serigrafie,Zeefdruk edi...@inter.nl.net
All views expressed are my own and may have no relation whatsoever
to the views of Acorn, Intel, Oracle, IBM, Digital, ARM, Sun, Micro
Ian
In article <na.4eabcc4853....@no-spam.co.uk>,
Andrew John Wall <andy...@no-spam.co.uk> writes:
> Maybe this is where you're going wrong. If you never bought a RiscPC
> I assume you are still using an A5000 or something like that. Well,
> I can tell you a RiscPC beats the PANTS off an A5000 and indeed any
> machine before it. And I have a feeling Pheobe will as well.
Hmm, crap graphics, slow bus, dodgy OS, slow I/O, expensive, just like
the A5000 I used to own.. And the A3000 I used to own, and the 310!
> I still use an Acorn and will continue to use an Acorn because I
> don't want to put up with Windows. Pure and simple. I've seen it in
> operation at Uni and I've seen my friends using it and it stinks in
> my opinion.
It does stink, I had to use NT at work. My boss went on a week's trip
overseas and when he came back I had Linux running on my desktop! ;-)
> I use an Acorn because it is intuative and easy to use and I know
> whats going on. It does what I want it to do without crashing.
I use Linux because it's intuitive to a unix user, easy to use and I
know what's going on. I didn't think Riscos was that intuitive, what
with the different combinations of mouse buttons, shift/ctrl keys, the
inconsistency of icon bar clicks, the ridiculous inconsistency of the
obey files, the need to keep in mind the limits and implementation of
the different "transparent" virtual filesystems like SparkFS or CFS,
the modules system implementation, all the different memory areas that
needed tuning (font cache, RMA, spritesize etc), basically lots of
things.
To a new user, this isn't intuitive. I don't find NT intuitive because
I've only really used it as an application launcher, and have never
really tuned the OS to get the max out of it. Basically, what you're
used to is intuitive, what you're not used to isn't.
> I bought my RiscPC three years ago and all it would take is a
> StrongArm upgrade and I would still be up there with the rest. Can
> that be said about a PC?
When I bought my PC it had a maximum screen res of 1280x1024 at
16BPP. I spent 150UKP on a graphics card that can handle far better,
once I'd bought a decent monitor I switched to 1600x1200 at 32BPP. If
I want I can buy a new motherboard for 100 UKP that can accept a
second processor (70UKP). I can buy whatever case I want (I've now got
a huge tower case with mucho drive space) and fit the machine to it in
about half an hour.
Sure, you can spend a small amount of money and bring a machine up to
the spec of the latest acorn models, but it's not much of a leap and
not up there "with the rest" if you're including the rest of the
desktop computing world. The latest acorn kit's way behind my machine,
and is more expensive. As I upgrade, the old bits go into a box that
will soon have enough in it to build a second machine that's as
powerful as an SA RiscPC.
Also, I've never *needed* to upgrade, I *wanted* to. Apart from the
hard disc failure that is!
> But with Java and RiscOS, I'm going to have a machine with a
> lot of software and a lot of *style*.
But with Java, the interface isn't acorn's any more, it's Java's.
There might be some integration with RiscOs, but don't be too
surprised if you get file dialogues appearing, rather than filer
drag'n'drop. You'll probably also lose 2D window dragging and lots of
other things that make the machine nice. Java has its own GUI toolkit,
implementors might be able to integrate it with their OS, but only to
a limited, normally visual, extent.
This would leave the hardware and the underlying OS as distinguishing
points, and on this the Acorn's drop dead out of the race. Who would
buy an Acorn to run Java apps on if they can run the same app on a
stable, efficient OS like unix, or on a commodity OS like NT? Java
won't save RiscOs, it'll help kill it if it takes off in the way you
want. If educational suppliers start producing apps in Java, they'll
run on Macs and Acorns as well as Windows boxes, but the Windows boxes
win on price, so what's the point in buying Mac or Acorn in such a
situation?
Some people seem to think that cross-platform compatibility will save
small-market machines, but unless those machines can show a definite
advantage over the mass-market machines, and one that can be presented
in adverts rather than taking a few months of use to appreciate, then
they're not going to sell. This is bad for enthusiasts like yourself
because it stunts development. Look at the software and hardware
market you've currently got, there doesn't appear to be much more life
in it, check the Amiga market for a look into your machine's future.
--
Ian - Edit address before mailing. | Have you got a question you want to ask
Running Linux in the UK. | Usenet? Search www.dejanews.com first!
-- There are no facts, only opinions --
James Hammerton
Astute Graphics (ni...@astutegrfx.demon.co.uk) wrote:
> In article <357F98...@sheffield.ac.uk>, Danny Monaghan
> <URL:mailto:D.Mon...@sheffield.ac.uk> wrote:
>
[snip]
> > > The difference is that I can still run my graphics
> > > business with success on a four year old machine and look at my
> > > clients in the eyes when I give them the final result.
> > >
> >
> > I will be able to do what I want to do on a P166 - coming in at cost
> > of between £700 and £900 and the software is about £400. To do this
> > on an Acorn (what I WANT TO DO - sorry to shout but some people have
> > missed the point that I still will and want to use my Acorn's) will
> > cost me £1400 + a monitor for Phoebe, £200 ish for an interface and
> > about £150 for software. I'm sorry but it simply doesn't compare - I
> > can replace a PC at twice the rate of an Acorn for no greater cost
> > That argument simply doesn't work anymore.
> >
>
> Apart from the P166 not being around four years ago when RiscPC came
> out, a 166 is not much use anymore in terms of using the latest PC
> graphics apps. You'd be better to look at 300MHz+ machines and upgrade
> your software at high cost each year.
If his current PC + graphics software does what he wants it to do why
does he need to upgrade? There seems to be an assumption that if you
buy a PC one has to keep upgrading it and its software to keep up with
the latest version and the hikes in CPU power. I don't see why this
should be the case if your PC is doing everything you want of
it.
[snip]
> > I won't need to buy every year. The P166 on my desk at work has been
> > performing for over a year at speeds that are still more than fast
> > enough. It runs win3.11 because of the network here at the Uni, but it
> > win run win95 and win98 if I wanted it to. When the network here goes
> > on to NT soon, my machine will run that as well. It's quite clever
> > really. It's funny but these are all the things I used to say to my PC
> > owing friends. The thing is, rationlising a situation is sometimes
> > more a case of telling 'rational lies' (do you get the pun?) because
> > you refuse to accept the true.
> > Just my feeling that's all.
>
> I'm finding it pretty hard to find any decent software to run on Win3.1
> anymore, especially graphics stuff. Depends what you want to use it for.
Why the assumption he needs to buy new packages each year?
James
--
James Hammerton, Research Student, School of Computer Science,
University of Birmingham | Home Page: http://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/~jah/
Connectionist NLP WWW Page: http://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/~jah/CNLP/cnlp.html
Replace "seemysigfile" with "james" in my email address
Rob Kendrick
> In article <na.4eabcc4853....@no-spam.co.uk>,
> Andrew John Wall <andy...@no-spam.co.uk> writes:
>
> > I still use an Acorn and will continue to use an Acorn because I
> > don't want to put up with Windows. Pure and simple. I've seen it in
> > operation at Uni and I've seen my friends using it and it stinks in
> > my opinion.
>
You learn to hate Windows. I had a Windows PC in one shape or another for
nearly 10 years, but when a friend talked me into spending my hard earned
cash on a StrongARM RiscPC, I started to hate Windows straight away. I
avoid using it at all costs. I used to love it. Sorry.
Down with Microsoft, and everyone else in there position;
Corel, Intel, Creative Labs, IBM, HP, etc...
Rob Kendrick
--
Real Email: rob at kiwisoftware dot demon dot co dot uk
Does this look purple to you?
Slam a revolving door today!
Andy McMullon
In article <ant11131...@edinkla.inter.nl.net>, Ernst Dinkla
<URL:mailto:edi...@inter.nl.net> wrote:
>
> We know there's new software for the Acorns. And I'm not buying a
> P...... so there must be some money left to invest. Whether not
> buying a P...... now, means I won't buy Acorn software in the future
> is something I can't predict. Maybe P...... will drop in price and
> rise in specification. For the near future I think more people will
> have similar thoughts.
Maybe.
I know I don't have the dosh for a Phoebe *and* a Peanut (unless I can
persuade my employer to buy one of them!).
My thoughts about my own money are that I am very happy with my current
SA RPC and currently can't see what extra I'd get for shelling out £1500
apart from an *unneeded* extra turn of speed. So I really don't see
what people are moaning about Phoebe at all for - RPCI is adequate then
Phoebe at 4 to 10 times the speed is completely over the top (like the
price unfortunately)!
OTOH the Peanut will give me RiscOS and all my favourite apps wherever
I may roam! Having used the A7000+ in local schools I know it is a
useful machine - even at 48 Mhz! So guess who will get my money?
Now if we start to see some software developments that actually need a
multi-processing Phoebe then that might be a different story!
--
Andy: skyp...@bigfoot.com / http://www.mcfamily.demon.co.uk
Ian
In article <357F98...@sheffield.ac.uk>,
Danny Monaghan <D.Mon...@sheffield.ac.uk> writes:
> I will be able to do what I want to do on a P166 - coming in at cost
> of between £700 and £900
Wow! I've got a bridge for sale if you're interested...
I think you need a new supplier!
Peter Bell
In message <ant11141...@mcfamily.demon.co.uk>
Andy McMullon <skyp...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> OTOH the Peanut will give me RiscOS and all my favourite apps wherever
> I may roam! Having used the A7000+ in local schools I know it is a
> useful machine - even at 48 Mhz! So guess who will get my money?
I agree entirely. Just form an orderly queue *behind* me. ;-)
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Peter Bell - pe...@foursqre.demon.co.uk - FourSquare Computing Ltd
5 Drome Path, Winnersh, Wokingham, Berkshire RG41 5HB, UK.
Tel. +44 (0) 118 989 0982 Fax. +44 (0) 118 979 4639
Ian
In article <na.4685d04854...@argonet.co.uk>,
Ted Lepley <ted...@argonet.co.uk> writes:
> Basically the all singing, general purpose, do anything, machine is
> near the end of its development. Only games provide the limitless
> development that the public-at-large will consider necessary and on
> which they will continue to spend money.
Who will need more than 640K of RAM, right? What about the spread of
camcorders and the spread of graphics cards with builtin video
capture? What about home recording and the beginning of bands who's
songs are only available as MP3 format files? What about DVD players
in PCs using the PC as a video player? These are new markets taking
off, none of them involve word processing and spreadsheets. Computers
are extremely flexible tools and are going to continue to find more
uses in the home and business for a long time. The idea of a large,
flat screen on the wall that can be used to access a computer that
will record TV programmes, download TV programmes, play games, set the
cooker, take telephone messages etc isn't here yet, but we're getting
there.
Ian
In article <na.7f23a54854....@no-spam.co.uk>,
Andrew John Wall <andy...@no-spam.co.uk> writes:
> The way I see it is this. Acorn Risc machines never really became
> the great sucess (In terms of sales at least) that they could have
> done. Why? Because of the perceived lack of software. Well, with
> Java there will be that software and when it is a case of a PC and
> an Acorn having the same quality of software but with very different
> OS's - one stable, intuative, effient, and well thought out, the
> other unstable, very ineffient and quite simply an OS that treats
> the user as a dummy without understanding that people *learn* I have
> a feeling that people will start to look towards Acorn as a viable
> alternative.
RiscOS is not stable under load. It's got a nice GUI in parts, but
it's a mess underneath. Well thought out? Naah! Why would people buy
an Acorn system that means they'll have to learn a whole new
underlying OS on slow hardware when they can use the machines they've
got, and the knowledge they've got, to run the apps on fast hardware?
Don't forget that if you're running a Java app, you're running the
Java GUI toolkit, so many of the nice Acorn features will go out of
the window.
> That is ignoring my point. If you remember I said that I use PC's at
> college and one of my friends has a Pentium. The ones at College are
> terrible and my mates one is crashing all the time.
My NT box at work usually runs for a month before collapsing, and
that's it being on 24 hours per day, not switched off at night. I've
taken to rebooting it at the end of the day anyway so that it doesn't
crash even once per month. My Linux box at home runs until I shut it
down for an upgrade of some kind, it's had uptimes of over 100 days
before, that's 100 days without a reboot or powerdown, and that length
of time was terminated by a hardware upgrade. The hardware is good,
the OS is bad. The win95 boxes at work don't crash all the time, but
I've rarely seen a university PC lab that was set up correctly,
educational IT admins are often either crap, underpaid and overworked,
unix-biased or beset by the problems of students screwing around with
the setup all the time. At Reading university they used to run their
labs with a hardware-protected boot partition, network mounted apps
and a partition on the disc that was formatted every night
automatically to get around this problem.
We don't get that at work because our staff use a computer dedicated
for their use only as nothing more than a tool, not as a games machine
or something to fiddle with. In educational markets, lots of different
people use a machine (Windows 95 isn't designed for this, NT is better
but still not very good) and tend to screw around with the setup, so
people who use it seriously have problems because someone's messed
around installing some software they shouldn't have. In my experience,
Windows95 was more reliable than RiscOs was, NT very much so.
> RiscCAD I have no problem with - even if there is something I havn't
> done before on the package I can work out how to do it.
If there's something I want to do with my Unix box, even if it's
something I've never done before, I can easily work out how to do
it. Does this make unix intuitive? It means that I know the way it
works, and so can predict the way something should be done. If you
take an autocad user and throw them at risccad, they'd probably have
just the same problems you have with autocad.
> No, Acorns are still the computers for me.
Fine. There really is a lot of crap about Intel and Windows flying
around in this group though, it's not as bad as people are saying. I
don't like it, but if it crashes frequently, e.g. more than once per
day, then it's very unhealthy. If it crashes more than twice per week,
I'd be investigating what's wrong with the setup. User's aren't as
used to crashes as some would suggest. If a box crashes at work,
people in my department get called and asked to fix it, machine
downtime costs money, lost work costs even more money so it's not
something that businesses will tolerate.
Alex Holloway
In article <4854905CE9%r...@kiwisoftware.demon.com.uk>,
Rob Kendrick <r...@kiwisoftware.demon.com.uk> wrote:
> > In article <na.4eabcc4853....@no-spam.co.uk>,
> > > don't want to put up with Windows. Pure and simple. I've seen it in
> > > operation at Uni and I've seen my friends using it and it stinks in
> > > my opinion.
> >
> You learn to hate Windows. I had a Windows PC in one shape or another for
> nearly 10 years, but when a friend talked me into spending my hard earned
> cash on a StrongARM RiscPC, I started to hate Windows straight away. I
> avoid using it at all costs. I used to love it. Sorry.
That's the sort of story us Acorn enthusiasts like to hear, it gives us an
ego boost ;-)
> Down with Microsoft,
Yes! KILL THE MONEY GRABBING SWINDLERS ;-)
> and everyone else in there position;
> Corel, Intel, Creative Labs, IBM, HP, etc...
not so sure about them though... Intel for example, haven't actually been
selling pants stuff at inflated prices - they've continually upgraded an
18-year-old architecture because there's a lot of demand for it, despite
the fact that it is arguably inelegant and inefficient!
HP though... yes, THE makers of rip-off PC's - at least, unless the real
prices for them are several hundred quid less than the ones PC World
display for HP PC's! (Which i wouldn't be surprised by, really!)
--
Alex Holloway
"\ / "
http://acornusers.org/existence/
/ \
Ian Lynch
ia...@pobox.DUMPTHISBIT.quza.com (Ian) wrote:
> Who will need more than 640K of RAM, right? What about the spread of
> camcorders and the spread of graphics cards with builtin video capture?
> What about home recording and the beginning of bands who's songs are
> only available as MP3 format files? What about DVD players in PCs using
> the PC as a video player?
What about the millions of people who use the computer as an electronic
typewriter and very little else?
Buy the technology to do the job you need to do. If that's video editing
perhaps a P400 is justified. For watching videos, try a video recorder,
its a lot less expensive.
> The idea of a large, flat screen on the wall that can be used to access
> a computer that will record TV programmes, download TV programmes, play
> games, set the cooker, take telephone messages etc isn't here yet, but
> we're getting there.
Snag is most consumers can't even programme the video. Come to think of
it I can't because I can't be bothered with it. Far more likely that you
will have an intelligent TV or cooker than a "general purpose" PC
controlling everything. The desktop computer ain't going anywhere.
--
Ian
George Buchanan
In article <357EEB...@sheffield.ac.uk>, Danny Monaghan
<URL:mailto:D.Mon...@sheffield.ac.uk> wrote:
> George Buchanan wrote:
> > > No new software and decreasing support for existing titles
> > ...complete toss, sorry, but I am sick, sore and tired of complete
> > idiots shouting "no new software" - well, perhaps R-Comp, ourselves,
> > Astute graphics et al are just writing grafitti on a wall, but I
> > *think* that we write software, oh and then there's Spacetech,
> > Iota, and many others - sorry for the hordes left out...
> >
>
> didn't refer to me as an idiot. After all, I am still a potential
> customer.
mean SUT, which I presume is like YSTV etc.
> As far as software goes - if the best we can get excited about
> is the port of a four year old game then I wouldn't shout too loudly.
...I wouldn't get excited about a port of *any* game. I also didn't
point out games at all - RComp ship HTML/web stuff - RComp Interactive
do the games ;-)
> Maybe I should have said no new 'significant' software.
...such as PhotoDesk 3 and Astute's vector graphics package? Or
perhaps RComp and ourselves doing HTML authoring packages, or
ANT doing Internet connection tools, or Iota and database stuff,
or Irlam and video editing, or - oh I'll shut up!
Also, as you clearly don't think dismissing even more niche software
such as (say) accounting packages, or even table editors as being
insignificant is wise - I know of a lot of Acorn packages which
have sold thousands which are these "insignificant" products. Table-
Mate, for example, has sold to over 3000 people excluding those
who got it with Impression.
Come on Danny, there are some areas where nowt is going on, but to
proclaim that there is no significant development is still tosh.
Equally, no developer in their right mind is going to release any
product until they know the Phoebe situation - we're sitting on two
nearly-finished products at the moment, and I know of seven other
new packages in the same condition from other developers.
George Buchanan
In article <6lp00p$4f3$2...@tarcus.dialup.tha.uk.quza.net>, Ian
<URL:mailto:ia...@pobox.DUMPTHISBIT.quza.com> wrote:
> In article <na.4685d04854...@argonet.co.uk>,
> Ted Lepley <ted...@argonet.co.uk> writes:
>
> > Basically the all singing, general purpose, do anything, machine is
> > near the end of its development. Only games provide the limitless
> > development that the public-at-large will consider necessary and on
> > which they will continue to spend money.
>
> camcorders and the spread of graphics cards with builtin video
> capture?
function of a WP/Spreadsheet etc - which is what Ted was pointing
out, and as anyone who has ever heard me shoot my mouth off on
such subjects is what I've been saying for about 4 years now.
...also, these new functions will depend on the number of people
who have the need for them. To put you in the picture, Adobe, who
by-and-by might be interested in video etc just a smidgin, have
publicly indicated that they expect uptake of "dynamic media"
(that's video/audio editing to you and me) to not exceed 2% of
users in the US - and worldwide the US has a larger uptake of
things such as domestic video/audio editing suites than elsewhere.
...furthermore, Sony et al are actually developing specialised
all-in-one box solutions for these tools which don't require a PC,
are more robust, cheaper etc (though clearly not as upgradeable),
and easier to sell to the home market.
...the above only serves to illustrate a general trend in take-
up, and clearly has ramifications in the PC market also. Virtually
everyone has to write letters, only a few will ever do video editing.
As much as anything else, time is becoming a substantial limiter to
consumption which is why MS is focussing on sheep-dip products rather
than quality tools, as most people value time savings over outright
quality. PowerPoint is a good example of this.
Thomas Boroske
In message <na.7f23a54854....@no-spam.co.uk>
Andrew John Wall <andy...@no-spam.co.uk> wrote:
> The way I see it is this. Acorn Risc machines never really became the great
> sucess (In terms of sales at least) that they could have done. Why? Because
> of the perceived lack of software. Well, with Java there will be that
> software and when it is a case of a PC and an Acorn having the same quality
> of software but with very different OS's - one stable, intuative, effient,
> and well thought out, the other unstable, very ineffient and quite simply an
> OS that treats the user as a dummy without understanding that people *learn*
> I have a feeling that people will start to look towards Acorn as a viable
> alternative.
Do you really think so ? Consider
1) Acorn will probably keep lagging behind in Java developments
2) PCs are simply faster for more money
3) If you're thinking of using ONLY Java (or mainly), then why not
go Linux - this adresses your "unstable" point
I think you're seeing things a bit simple. For example, Java applications
of a decent size will need very fast hardware and/or constantly updated
JIT technology - so Acorn will have to put in a lot of work there.
> People have chosen PC's because they percieve them to be the industry
> standard and have decided that Acorn are not.
If I choose a PC then it's because I simply can't afford the absolutely
insane 5200DM Acorn are Asking for Phoebe.
> When Java comes this will
> change totally - the industry standard will be Java. It will make the
> computer industry much more democratic - the industry will be leveled again
LOL :-) Do you really believe that ? Do you really think most of
the big players today won't be big players then ?
Kind regards,
--
Thomas Boroske
Ian
In article <EuE3np.557.0.sta...@dcs.ed.ac.uk>,
seemys...@tardis.ed.ac.uk (James Hammerton) writes:
> Why the assumption he needs to buy new packages each year?
It's all part of the religion.
Stuart Bell
In article <7eb09b5448%pe...@foursqre.demon.co.uk>,
Peter Bell <pe...@foursqre.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <ant11141...@mcfamily.demon.co.uk>
> Andy McMullon <skyp...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> > OTOH the Peanut will give me RiscOS and all my favourite apps wherever
> > I may roam! Having used the A7000+ in local schools I know it is a
> > useful machine - even at 48 Mhz! So guess who will get my money?
> I agree entirely. Just form an orderly queue *behind* me. ;-)
We're OK, Peter; they're going to supply by alphabetical order of
applicant.
--
Stuart Bell - change nospam to argonet to email responses to news.
Running an Acorn Risc PC, a Mac Color Classic and
an Apple PowerBook 100 in a Wintel-free Zone.
Ted Lepley
In article <6lp00p$4f3$2...@tarcus.dialup.tha.uk.quza.net>,
ia...@pobox.DUMPTHISBIT.quza.com (Ian) wrote:
>
> In article <na.4685d04854...@argonet.co.uk>,
> Ted Lepley <ted...@argonet.co.uk> writes:
>
> > Basically the all singing, general purpose, do anything, machine is
> > near the end of its development. Only games provide the limitless
> > development that the public-at-large will consider necessary and on
> > which they will continue to spend money.
>
> Who will need more than 640K of RAM, right?
> What about the spread of camcorders
owners do not have PCs or even consider them necessary for taking Video
films.
> and the spread of graphics cards with builtin video capture?
Not a function normally associated with general purpose PCs for the
mass market. No reason why special video cards should not be made
available as an add-on, with their own cpu or whatever if you want to
change the function of a PC.
> What about home recording
Home recording (I assume that audio is meant) is not a computerised
function and has been available well before PCs were the norm.
> and the beginning of bands who's songs are only available as MP3
> format files?
Is this a necessity or a marketing decision?
> What about DVD players in PCs using the PC as a video player?
What about DVD players independnt of a general purpose PC?
> These are new markets taking off, none of them involve word processing
>and spreadsheets.
You are talking about new markets. I was talking about the apparent
lack of new software in the desk top PC market which believe has been
satiated. I agree that new software will be necessary for these much
more limited applications as will specialised hardware and expansion
cards but see no reason why they need to determine the design and
pricing of the basic home or office machine.
> Computers are extremely flexible tools and are going to continue to
> find more uses in the home and business for a long time.
Because they are flexible and can be configured/expanded to do a
multitude of tasks for the individual who wants additional features
is not a reason why the mass market should have to buy the features and
complications when the basic machine will meet its needs.
> The idea of a large, flat screen on the wall that can be used to
> access a computer that will record TV programmes, download TV
> programmes, play games, set the cooker, take telephone messages etc
> isn't here yet, but we're getting there.
I would envisage it as a small computer controlling all these external
functions each of which has its own necessary intelligence. My VCR does
all this on its own. A games machine does this on its own. My cooker does
this on its own. My answering machine does this on its own. This is
what I think embedded control means.
It would be nice to have a central computer to control and program all the
others, but see no need to move all this, almost unpredictable for an
unknown user, into one desktop computer.
The main controlling computer meeds very little processing power, speed or
storage. Sounds like a STB to me.(:-)
Ted
--
ZFC S+ ted...@argonet.co.uk
Clan member East London. UK
Using Voyager V.1.18
Fri,12 Jun 1998.00:13:42
James Shiell
>> That is ignoring my point. If you remember I said that I use PC's at
>> college and one of my friends has a Pentium. The ones at College are
>> terrible and my mates one is crashing all the time.
>
>My NT box at work usually runs for a month before collapsing, and
>that's it being on 24 hours per day, not switched off at night. I've
>taken to rebooting it at the end of the day anyway so that it doesn't
>crash even once per month. My Linux box at home runs until I shut it
ha! what a load of bollocks .. . how to crahs an NT machine running in the
labs of waikato uni . .. try tar xvf xxx when the resulting output would be
buigger than your quota . . .quota fills up, drops out (not enough disc space)
.. .NT fucks up, tio the point where a reboot is necessary
funny how something that simple can crash a presumably stable OS, one day im
trying it on 95 to see what it does to that . . .
and of course sometimes it refuses to display my backdrop, despite it working,
being sleected etc etc etc
sad huh
--
--
** James Shiell ****************** Warning ********
* jw...@waikato.ac.nz **** May cause enlightenment
***** http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~shiell/james/ **
**************** I am a fish *********** Bleah ****
dgs
In article <893ebf5448%y000...@tu-bs.de>,
Thomas Boroske <y000...@ws.rz.tu-bs.de> wrote:
> 1) Acorn will probably keep lagging behind in Java developments
Evidence suggests otherwise...
> 2) PCs are simply faster for more money
But not necessarily for Java...
...
> LOL :-) Do you really believe that ? Do you really think most of
> the big players today won't be big players then ?
Just because things have not changed in a long time and don't
look likely to do so, doesn't guarantee they'll *never* change.
A great number of computing's "big players" have been eclipsed
in the past, and nothing lasts for ever.
Manchester Acorn User Group - http://www.cybernexus.demon.co.uk/maug/
RPC x86 Card Info Pages - http://acorn.cybervillage.co.uk/pccard/
The Oaktree House, talker for Acorn users - http://www.toth.org.uk/
Ian
In article <485400d...@globalnet.co.uk>,
Martin Birchall <je...@globalnet.co.uk> writes:
> BTW, I disagree with Danny's point about *never* buying a new Acorn. The
> whole point of my post is NEVER say never. *Sad*ly, this also applies to
> buying Windross. :-(
I thought that I might buy another Acorn box one day, but once I'd
gotten used to the intel hardware, going back to Acorn is out of the
question because of the price/performance ratio. The Acorn kit is slow
and expensive compared to the kit I'm using now, and upgrading isn't
as flexible. Even the RiscPC's case is expensive, if you run out of
space you need to buy more slices, I bought a huge good quality tower
case with 250watt PSU for 75 UKP, there's more space in there than I
can shake a stick at.
Nowadays, looking back I can't believe I spent that much money on
Acorn kit and got so little for it.
Ian
In article <6lq297$8...@netserv.waikato.ac.nz>,
jw...@waikato.ac.nz (James Shiell) writes:
> ha! what a load of bollocks .. . how to crahs an NT machine running
> in the labs of waikato uni . .. try tar xvf xxx when the resulting
> output would be buigger than your quota . . .quota fills up, drops
> out (not enough disc space) .. .NT fucks up, tio the point where a
> reboot is necessary
Hey, I didn't say it's perfect, if it was I wouldn't have replaced it
with Linux. I'm no NT fan, but it doesn't crash much at all for me. I
don't know what the situation with your machines is, but you should
check the service packs and get the admin to fix it. It sounds like
you've got a fundamental flaw in place there, fixes are usually easy
to get and apply for such things.
> funny how something that simple can crash a presumably stable OS,
> one day im trying it on 95 to see what it does to that . . .
I wouldn't bother, I think 95 is unstable, but that's by my standards.
I think RiscOS is also unstable by my standards. NT is stable-ish, not
enough for me to use it comfortably, Linux is just fine.
My ideal setup for most companies would be 95 on laptops, NT on
desktops, Unix on servers and some techie desktops.
> and of course sometimes it refuses to display my backdrop, despite
> it working, being sleected etc etc etc
A major flaw! ;-)
Not something that's ever happened on our machines, maybe you should
check the event log, fat load of good it'll do you though..
> sad huh
Not wonderful, but it's a damned sight more stable than RiscOS in my
experience. It's a pig to use for sure, but then I don't suffer from
that personally, I just sit in a technical department full of NT users
who don't have any problems. None of us like NT, we're all unix fans,
but we have to use NT because we've got Microsoft Exchange installed
and use Schedule+, both of these use proprietary protocols so we have
to run NT mainly so that we can read mail and book rooms!
Now *THAT'S* sad...
Peter Bell
In message <4854b9d5...@no-spam.co.uk>
Stuart Bell <sab...@no-spam.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <7eb09b5448%pe...@foursqre.demon.co.uk>,
> Peter Bell <pe...@foursqre.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > In message <ant11141...@mcfamily.demon.co.uk>
> > Andy McMullon <skyp...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>
> > > OTOH the Peanut will give me RiscOS and all my favourite apps wherever
> > > I may roam! Having used the A7000+ in local schools I know it is a
> > > useful machine - even at 48 Mhz! So guess who will get my money?
>
> > I agree entirely. Just form an orderly queue *behind* me. ;-)
>
> We're OK, Peter; they're going to supply by alphabetical order of
> applicant.
That should be okay then - and Bell, P. comes before Bell, S. ;-)
Adrian Jackson
Peter Bell wrote:
> In message <4854b9d5...@no-spam.co.uk>
> Stuart Bell <sab...@no-spam.co.uk> wrote:
> > We're OK, Peter; they're going to supply by alphabetical order of
> > applicant.
> That should be okay then - and Bell, P. comes before Bell, S. ;-)
I wonder how many people are going to change their name
by deed poll to Aaron A Aardvark...
Adrian
Bill Oldroyd
Ted Lepley wrote:
>
> In article <6lp00p$4f3$2...@tarcus.dialup.tha.uk.quza.net>,
> ia...@pobox.DUMPTHISBIT.quza.com (Ian) wrote:
> >
> > The idea of a large, flat screen on the wall that can be used to
> > access a computer that will record TV programmes, download TV
> > programmes, play games, set the cooker, take telephone messages etc
> > isn't here yet, but we're getting there.
>
> I would envisage it as a small computer controlling all these external
> functions each of which has its own necessary intelligence. My VCR does
> It would be nice to have a central computer to control and program all the
And provide the gateway to Internet services.
> others, but see no need to move all this, almost unpredictable for an
> unknown user, into one desktop computer.
>
> The main controlling computer meeds very little processing power, speed or
> storage. Sounds like a STB to me.(:-)
Yes this is the way to go. Spread the mips around the house: ARM mips
are cheap enough to do this. But I think the controllers are less than
an STB. What is the minimal system that would be of any use ?. Is it
possibly a processor/system chip like the ARM7500FE, smallish amount of
memory, television interface, user input with a games handset (perhaps
voice is we use a SA1500), serial interface to the main system, perhaps
a CD-ROM ?.
Bill
Danny Monaghan
George Buchanan wrote:
> > George, as the representative of a company, I would appriciate if you
> > didn't refer to me as an idiot. After all, I am still a potential
> > customer.
> ...erm, you didn't declare the interest at the beginning, unless you
> mean SUT, which I presume is like YSTV etc.
>
Oh so if I declare an interest in your products you won't insult me, but
if not it's fine to call names. How bizarre your outlook on other people
is.
I will say nothing more except that all the opinions expressed are mine
and mine alone.
Danny
Paul Vigay
In article <4854b9d5...@no-spam.co.uk>, Stuart Bell
<URL:mailto:sab...@no-spam.co.uk> wrote:
>
> We're OK, Peter; they're going to supply by alphabetical order of
> applicant.
I think it should be reverse alphabetical. :-)
--
Paul Vigay Home: pvi...@interalpha.co.uk
Liphook, Work: pvi...@bohunt.demon.co.uk
Hampshire,
UK Web homepage, inc.links to Acorn Shareware and
paranormal research: http://www.vigay.mcmail.com
Paul Vigay
In article <6loo43$1ef$1...@tarcus.dialup.tha.uk.quza.net>, Ian
<URL:mailto:ia...@pobox.DUMPTHISBIT.quza.com> wrote:
> In article <357F98...@sheffield.ac.uk>,
> Danny Monaghan <D.Mon...@sheffield.ac.uk> writes:
>
> > I will be able to do what I want to do on a P166 - coming in at cost
> > of between £700 and £900
You must be joking!!! Novatech in Portsmouth will sell you a PII 200 for less
than that!
Paul Vigay
In article <EuE3np.557.0.sta...@dcs.ed.ac.uk>, James Hammerton
<URL:mailto:seemys...@tardis.ed.ac.uk> wrote:
> If his current PC + graphics software does what he wants it to do why does
> he need to upgrade? There seems to be an assumption that if you buy a PC one
> has to keep upgrading it and its software to keep up with the latest version
> and the hikes in CPU power. I don't see why this should be the case if your
> PC is doing everything you want of it.
It doesn't. That's the point. Microsoft and it's unethical trading ensure that
every so often they bring out a new version which will be guaranteed to be
almost, but not quite, entirely incompatible with the old version - ie. Office
97, 98 etc. Those who buy new PC's invariably have the latest version bundled
with it (ie, som enew laptops we bought here) so they come with Office 98 (and
hence Word 8). Our older machines (ie. last months model) came with Word 7, so
now the same people in the same office can't swap files any more because of
Micro$oft's built-in incompatibilities.
You're ok until your software needs an update, or you need to swap files with
someone who uses a different version and then you are stuffed!
> > I'm finding it pretty hard to find any decent software to run on Win3.1
> > anymore, especially graphics stuff. Depends what you want to use it for.
>
> Why the assumption he needs to buy new packages each year?
Because to remain compatible in the market place you need to be able to read
each others files - something Acorns have been able to do throughput the
years. If you don't need to buy new packages each year then why use a PC at
all. Buy a second-hand Acorn with Impression Publisher or something and then
as long as it does what you want, why upgrade. Surely this is an argument in
favour of Acorn.
Paul Vigay
>
> You learn to hate Windows. I had a Windows PC in one shape or another for
> nearly 10 years, but when a friend talked me into spending my hard earned
> cash on a StrongARM RiscPC, I started to hate Windows straight away. I
> avoid using it at all costs. I used to love it. Sorry.
>
> Corel, Intel, Creative Labs, IBM, HP, etc...
If you have a web page, do please link to
http://www.interalpha.net/customer/pvigay/antiwintel/index.html
:-)
Simon Willcocks
> > > We're OK, Peter; they're going to supply by alphabetical order of
> > > applicant.
>
>
> I wonder how many people are going to change their name
> by deed poll to Aaron A Aardvark...
Whose been reading 2000AD for a _very_ long time, then?
First against the wall....
Simon
Simon Willcocks
Paul Vigay wrote:
>
> In article <6loo43$1ef$1...@tarcus.dialup.tha.uk.quza.net>, Ian
> <URL:mailto:ia...@pobox.DUMPTHISBIT.quza.com> wrote:
> > In article <357F98...@sheffield.ac.uk>,
> > Danny Monaghan <D.Mon...@sheffield.ac.uk> writes:
> >
> > > I will be able to do what I want to do on a P166 - coming in at cost
> > > of between £700 and £900
>
> You must be joking!!! Novatech in Portsmouth will sell you a PII 200 for less
> than that!
Perhaps he meant when he bought it?
David B
> You learn to hate Windows. I had a Windows PC in one shape or another for
> nearly 10 years, but when a friend talked me into spending my hard earned
> cash on a StrongARM RiscPC, I started to hate Windows straight away. I
> avoid using it at all costs. I used to love it. Sorry.
Well done. This is a first. Someone who was a member of the Borg has
learned to leave the "collective" and join the human race ;-)
>
> Down with Microsoft, and everyone else in there position;
> Corel, Intel, Creative Labs, IBM, HP, etc...
Hey, now we cant knock Intel. Intel have a share in DEC. This company
inturn along with ARM Ltd produce the StrongARM. Well - strong links with
StrongARM anyway.
I recenltly heared that PC's are avoid to ditch the CISC processors and
old technology and go over to RISC. The backward-compatibility will cease
all together and a fresh start made. It would be fun to see a new "RISC" PC
powered by the latest "Intel tuned" StrongARM.
--
Dont stay in on this thing all night,
go out and have a few beers!
________________________________
| |
| "David" ris...@argonet.co.uk |
|________________________________|
David B
In article <6lovkr$4f3$1...@tarcus.dialup.tha.uk.quza.net>,
ia...@pobox.DUMPTHISBIT.quza.com (Ian) wrote:
> RiscOS is not stable under load. It's got a nice GUI in parts, but
> it's a mess underneath. Well thought out? Naah! Why would people buy
> an Acorn system that means they'll have to learn a whole new
> underlying OS on slow hardware when they can use the machines they've
> got, and the knowledge they've got, to run the apps on fast hardware?
> Don't forget that if you're running a Java app, you're running the
> Java GUI toolkit, so many of the nice Acorn features will go out of
> the window.
Okay, Ive waited long enough. The steam levels are now at boiling point and
if I dont reply and join in I would blow up!
RISC OS - Well Ive used Risc OS now since version 2.0 in my BBC A3000 (the
good old days). I upgraded to Risc OS 3.11 and it was like upgrading from
Windows 3.1 to 95 in my opinion. Although Windows 95 in a nice OS in terms
of a good GUI - its stability as compared to Risc OS is not one to trust. I
can leave my current Acorn (Risc PC 600) running all day and never have to
CTRL+BREAK whereas I leave PC's at work for 10 mins or so and its a case of
"This program has performed an illegal operartion and must exit
immediately". I only know of one very unstable product on my Acorn and that
is iXRC (Im sure Quadworks newer version cures this).
Risc OS is all in ROM - still! after all these years - since the humble
days of the Acorn BBC Model A/B and Electron. It occupies 4Mb (I think) in
ROM on the Acorn Risc PC600. As opposed to needing 100Mb of free space to
load Windows95 - and if you have a 210Mb drive - forget it! So okay, some of
the software needs "patches" (ROM Patches Risc OS 3.6/3.7) but these dont
gobble up oodles of mb's on the hard disk, a mere 64k if that of memory.
Im sure JAVA will be tuned to work hand in hand with Risc OS. Look at the
C language - many Risc OS applications (and Games) have been written in C
and the language calls on the various existing SWI's etc.. Im sure JAVA wont
have problems with this.
[snip Windows NT and Linux comments]
I have to agree I do like Windows NT so Im not totally biased. Windows NT
4 has brought the world of Windows95 and NT together. Lets hope many of
Windows 95 bugs aren't also ported with it. Ive never used Linux so Im sorry
but cannot comment on this score.
I have never left my Risc PC running for months without touching it
(switching off) so I dont know if it would stay afloat without an "abort on
Data fetch" error or similar. Depends on the software being run I think.
Much of the ROM bases software /seems/ stable. Its the software written for
the Computer that is the problem if any.
If I must praise Windows (ouch! that was a sore comment) then its for the
front-ended 4 GL's that are available. Visual Basic and Delphi spring to
mind straight away. VB - What I like about this is the ability to create a
window and icons and then add BASIC code to these to control them. No need
to buy seperate cleaner and softener so to speak - In other words - no need
to load a program like !FormEd - create the windows - and then add some
complex code DIMentialising memory to allow a SWI to be called to use an
icon etc...etc....BBC Basic V I have in mind. Although I dont mind using
FormEd and coding BBC Basic (Im glutten for punishment) because it sorta
makes you think as to what REAL programming is (or once was) all about.
Correct me if Im wrong, Ive never seen a 4GL on the Acorn (unless I
initialise my 486DX2 card and run VB 3).
> Fine. There really is a lot of crap about Intel and Windows flying
> around in this group though, it's not as bad as people are saying. I
> don't like it, but if it crashes frequently, e.g. more than once per
> day, then it's very unhealthy. If it crashes more than twice per week,
> I'd be investigating what's wrong with the setup. User's aren't as
> used to crashes as some would suggest. If a box crashes at work,
> people in my department get called and asked to fix it, machine
> downtime costs money, lost work costs even more money so it's not
> something that businesses will tolerate.
I think its time we buried this silly argument. Anyone who is /not/
pro-Acorn then LEAVE now!!!! Go and find a pro PC group and tell Bill how
much you love him.
Jason Gates
> I wonder how many people are going to change their name
> by deed poll to Aaron A Aardvark...
Probably none - I should imagine :o)
--
--
__ _ __ __ gates...@argonet.co.uk
__ / /__ ____ ___ ___( )__ / /_/ /__ __ _ ___ ___ ___ ____ ____
/ /_/ / _ `(_-</ _ \/ _ \(_-< / __ / _ \/ ' \/ -_) _ \/ _ `/ _ `/ -_)
\____/\_,_/___/\___/_//_/___/ /_/ /_/\___/_/_/_/\__/ .__/\_,_/\_, /\__/
/_/ /___/
Please visit : http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/gates.jdrm/
... I forgot my tagline file...
Lionel Smith
In article <ant121309f7fq#H...@bohunt.demon.co.uk>, Paul Vigay
<pvi...@bohunt.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> I think it should be reverse alphabetical. :-)
Well with a name like yours you would wouldn't you. You even come after me
and all my life there have never been many after me in a que as was
frequently rubbed-in in the Andrew. ;-)
Lionel
--
___ ______
/ / / ___/ 6 grandchildren | Sea Vixen for pugnacity
/ / ionel A.| \ mith 4 children & 1 dog | Hunter for elegance
/ /____ __\ | No wonder life is a breeze | Phantom for clout
/_______/ /_____/ lio...@argonet.co.uk | IT Tech. Supp. | ZFC B+1
Become a Microsoft Certified Professional today. Free introductory pie offer. ;-)
Stuart Bell
> >
> > We're OK, Peter; they're going to supply by alphabetical order of
> > applicant.
> I think it should be reverse alphabetical. :-)
But I guess you've always wished that! ;-)
Rob Kendrick
In message <ant121411868q#H...@bohunt.demon.co.uk>
Paul Vigay <pvi...@bohunt.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> If you have a web page, do please link to
> http://www.interalpha.net/customer/pvigay/antiwintel/index.html
>
Already have done. Our website used to be www.argonet.co.uk/users/lgraham
but now it's on my account, not Luke Grahams, so it's
www.kiwisoftware.demon.co.uk
What I meant by all the other companies is that there are others in MS's
persistion, but people like us ignore them. Intel for instance, are a
good company IMO, just because their most popular processor is utter crap
doesn't mean they are. If I had a bad product that I could sell to guilable
PC users, I would :-)
On our webpage, we didn't use the 'Anti Wintel' GIF, because neather myself
or Luke have anything aganst Intel, other than the RPC2 might have one of
those nasty 'Intel Inside' sticker on them... The old Intel Outside joke
no longer works... Pity, I used to have it as my wall paper. Now I have to
make to with a large bouncing sheep.
Cheers,
Rob Kendrick
(Professional Windows slagger)
--
Real Email: rob at kiwisoftware dot demon dot co dot uk
Does this look purple to you?
Slam a revolving door today!
Rob Kendrick
> In article <6lovkr$4f3$1...@tarcus.dialup.tha.uk.quza.net>,
> ia...@pobox.DUMPTHISBIT.quza.com (Ian) wrote:
>
> > RiscOS is not stable under load. It's got a nice GUI in parts, but
> > it's a mess underneath.
RiscOS is not as stable as a well installed and not crap covered Win95.
Win95's threading may not be perfect, but it's better than none IMO. It's
mostly the old 16-bit applications that totally crash Windows. Most of the
32-bit apps only crash them selfs, not others. This is surely the apps
fault, not Windows'.
> > Well thought out? Naah! Why would people buy
> > an Acorn system that means they'll have to learn a whole new
> > underlying OS on slow hardware when they can use the machines they've
> > got, and the knowledge they've got, to run the apps on fast hardware?
I don't know if your a programmer, but when I was learning to program RiscOS
when I binned by PC, it seems just plain silly; but you soon reali1se that
it is designed to be /VERY/ flexible. Windows isn't. Windows has a
diffirent 'message' for every event, where the RiscOS window manager
manages with comparativly few, which makes it very fast.
People buy Acorns because they /want/ a computer, not because they /need/
one. If you need a computer to be compatable with Windows, you buy a PC.
If you don't and you have some sense, you buy a RiscPC. A friend of mine
who has a Dell P100 (old, yes) saw my SA RPC running Doom, Impression,
Artworks and such like, and he said 'I want, I want!'. I pointed him to
Alsystems, and now he has a RiscPC, and he never comes off the bloody thing.
> > Don't forget that if you're running a Java app, you're running the
> > Java GUI toolkit, so many of the nice Acorn features will go out of
> > the window.
This is true, Java is from Unix though, which suffers from those horrid
save file dialogs like Windows, dynamic linking rarther than SWIs.
--
Real Email: rob at kiwisoftware dot demon dot co dot uk
There are three types of person on this world, those who can count, and
those who can't.
dawn chorus(n): Nature's way of telling the programmer to go to sleep.
Ernst Dinkla
In article <na.e21d014855...@argonet.co.uk>, David B
> Hey, now we cant knock Intel. Intel have a share in DEC. This company
> inturn along with ARM Ltd produce the StrongARM. Well - strong links with
> StrongARM anyway.
Better check your information with Dejavu.
The names are correct, the rest isn't.
Ernst
--
Ernst Dinkla Serigrafie,Zeefdruk edi...@inter.nl.net
All views expressed are my own and may have no relation whatsoever
to the views of Acorn, Intel, Oracle, IBM, Digital, ARM, Sun, Micro
George Buchanan
In article <35811D...@sheffield.ac.uk>, Danny Monaghan
<URL:mailto:D.Mon...@sheffield.ac.uk> wrote:
> George Buchanan wrote:
>
> > > George, as the representative of a company, I would appriciate if you
> > > didn't refer to me as an idiot. After all, I am still a potential
> > > customer.
> > ...erm, you didn't declare the interest at the beginning, unless you
> > mean SUT, which I presume is like YSTV etc.
> >
>
> Oh so if I declare an interest in your products you won't insult me, but
> if not it's fine to call names. How bizarre your outlook on other people
> is.
>
a company, that ought to have been declared.
...I honestly believe that the comments given were stupid, and they'd
be stupid if you were a customer, stupid if you were a potential
customer, and stupid if you weren't either - ie it is irrelevant.
...I can be a bit caustic at times, but only when I think someone's
vitriolically barking up the wrong gum tree. Claiming no software
development is taking place is provably wrong. There may be a lack
of developments in areas you are interested in - fine - but don't
throw the baby out with the bathwater, please! Maybe by pointing
out what you are interested in, it may help "tip the balance" for
someone who is thinking of doing such a project ;-)
..Finally(ish), if it is not insulting to the Acorn developer community
as a whole to label the whole sum of software development on the Acorn
platform as "nothing", I don't know what is.
..the initial posting in any case was a real vent of frustration at
folks who dismiss a lot of hard and difficult work, and not intended as
a personal attack on anyone, simply on the viewpoint. Clearly it comes
across as a more particular attack, which was not what I would intend
when in a calm state of mind. However, it's easy to act in the heat of
feelings on the internet...
--
George Buchanan, Dalriada Data Technology
74 Greville Road, Warwick, CV34 5PJ
Phone/Fax: [+44] (0)1926 492459
Rob Kendrick
In message <ant121411868q#H...@bohunt.demon.co.uk>
>
> If you have a web page, do please link to
> http://www.interalpha.net/customer/pvigay/antiwintel/index.html
>
FreeSMTP seems to have an inability to send anything at the mo) but I
would like to discuss VZap and myself and Luke's Slayer. Please email me!
Cheers,
Rob Kendrick
--
Real Email: rob at kiwisoftware dot demon dot co dot uk
There are three types of person on this world, those who can count, and
those who can't.
Computer: a device designed to speed and automate errors.
Rob Kendrick
In message <na.e21d014855...@argonet.co.uk>
"David B" <ris...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> > You learn to hate Windows. I had a Windows PC in one shape or another for
> > nearly 10 years, but when a friend talked me into spending my hard earned
> > cash on a StrongARM RiscPC, I started to hate Windows straight away. I
> > avoid using it at all costs. I used to love it. Sorry.
>
> Well done. This is a first. Someone who was a member of the Borg has
> learned to leave the "collective" and join the human race ;-)
I prefere programming on it; it's so much more bloody difficult under RiscOS
I get some sort of satifaction out of it. I used to use PDS and VB4.
> I recenltly heared that PC's are avoid to ditch the CISC processors and
> old technology and go over to RISC. The backward-compatibility will cease
> all together and a fresh start made. It would be fun to see a new "RISC" PC
> powered by the latest "Intel tuned" StrongARM.
The Pentium is a RISC chip, if I recall correctly. Partly anyway. I read
somewhere that it uses a bit of microcode to translate them across. This
idea was chucked out the window when they /ADDED/ another 57 instructions
for MMX.
Cheers,
Rob Kendrick
--
Real Email: rob at kiwisoftware dot demon dot co dot uk
Does this look purple to you?
10 REPEAT PRINT "Hello world!":UNTIL FALSE
Sam Smith
> In message <na.7f23a54854....@no-spam.co.uk>
> Andrew John Wall <andy...@no-spam.co.uk> wrote:
> > The way I see it is this. Acorn Risc machines never really became the
> > great sucess (In terms of sales at least) that they could have done. Why?
> > Because of the perceived lack of software. Well, with Java there will be
> > that software and when it is a case of a PC and an Acorn having the same
> > quality of software but with very different OS's - one stable, intuative,
> > effient, and well thought out, the other unstable, very ineffient and
> > quite simply an OS that treats the user as a dummy without understanding
> > that people *learn* I have a feeling that people will start to look
> > towards Acorn as a viable alternative.
> Do you really think so ? Consider
> 1) Acorn will probably keep lagging behind in Java developments
1.2.
> 2) PCs are simply faster for more money
yeah - probably for *more* money.
> 3) If you're thinking of using ONLY Java (or mainly), then why not
> go Linux - this adresses your "unstable" point
If you are thinking of only ever running Java only, then maybe Risc OS is not
the best platform. Sun's JavaOS probably is.
> I think you're seeing things a bit simple. For example, Java applications
> of a decent size will need very fast hardware and/or constantly updated
> JIT technology - so Acorn will have to put in a lot of work there.
And a 400MHZ processor wont do that will it not (OK, 276Mhz is shipping now,
so I can assume that it will be close to 400 by the time Phoebe ships).
> > People have chosen PC's because they percieve them to be the industry
> > standard and have decided that Acorn are not.
> If I choose a PC then it's because I simply can't afford the absolutely
> insane 5200DM Acorn are Asking for Phoebe.
Your choice.
> > When Java comes this will
> > change totally - the industry standard will be Java. It will make the
> > computer industry much more democratic - the industry will be leveled
> > again
> LOL :-) Do you really believe that ? Do you really think most of
> the big players today won't be big players then ?
Possibly - but there will be some big players then who are not big players
now.
Sam Smith
mailto:sa...@techie.com .:. http://sams.base.org
--
Owner of the Friends Spoiler List - mailto:friend...@mindless.com
UGC : GO>GCS d s: a--- C+++ !U !P !L !E W++ N+++ o+ K w--- O-- M !V PS+
PE++ Y+ PGP+ t++@ 5+++ X+++ R tv+ b++ !DI D G+ e>++ h-- r- y?
Andrew John Wall
In article <na.eb1eb54855...@argonet.co.uk>, "David B"
<ris...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> I think its time we buried this silly argument. Anyone who is /not/
> pro-Acorn then LEAVE now!!!! Go and find a pro PC group and tell Bill how
> much you love him.
Exactly, this is an Acorn group - seriously, we are here to discuss Acorns
(And any other topic under that banner - like "Arsenal - champions!"). The
thing is people know what this and other Acorn groups are about - Pro Acorn
- If people are not prepared to stick to this "policy" then leave. Yes, you
can leave your messages about Acorn being crap, etc, but it will not change
my views and many other peoples views as well. Its just a waste of money for
me and everyone else who has to download your ramblings. (Not that I am
saying you talk rubbish or anything like this). We are using Acorns because
they are good - no other reasons. Because we *want* to as well.
Anyway, I would hasten to add that these are drunken ramblings - my house
mate got the shite beaten out of him just now by some scallies in
Fallowfield, bloody Mancs.... gotta go....
Cheers,
Andy
--
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700 using !Webspider. | George!" England Victory! France '98
James Hammerton
David B (ris...@argonet.co.uk) wrote:
[snip]
> I think its time we buried this silly argument. Anyone who is /not/
> pro-Acorn then LEAVE now!!!! Go and find a pro PC group and tell Bill how
> much you love him.
With this point, you seem to be missing the point of at least some of
the postings on this thread, which is that various people who *are*
pro-Acorn are worried that the Acorn machines are falling so far
behind that *despite* the easier to use nature of the machines and
their greater reliability, the advantages over PCs are being
lost. When the RiscPC was launched it was roughly comparable to the
PCs of the day -- e.g. 486/DX2 66MHz in terms of raw power and *much*
easier to use -- this was pre Windows 95. Now whilst still on the
whole being easier to use, they are nowhere near as powerful as
current PCs, and PCs have even caught up somewhat on user
friendliness. Phoebe does not look set to change that. Now people
might say "But a 400MHz StrongArm will be used on or soon after the
launch". However PCs costing roughly the same as Phoebe are *now*
running at 400MHz. By the time Phoebe is launched they will be
cheaper. In a year's time we'll be looking at even faster processors for
the PCs, and the gap will widen further.
Some might say "So what? My Acorn allows me to do what I want, more
easily and with less hassle than PCs". The trouble is that without
attracting new users, the Acorn market will decline and the number of
people who find the software on Acorns does not allow them to do what
they want, but on PCs it does will increase. In other words whether
you'll be able to use your Acorn for the things you want to do will be
affected by how much software you can get for it, whether you can get
support for the machine/software, and ultimately therefore whether
there is a market for it. Without keeping their machines at least in
the same ball-park as PCs, Acorn risks losing their desktop market
altogether.
Some might now say "But Acorn are expanding into the NC/STB markets".
This is fine if all you're concerned about is the survival of Acorn. If
you want to continue using Acorn desktop computers, it only helps if
it can boost the desktop market and Acorn remain committed to
that market. Both propositions are debatable. Acorn produced Phoebe
primarily as a technology demonstrator -- they considered pulling out
of the desktop market and this was their reason for not doing
so. Acorn's interests no longer lie solely or even mainly in the
desktop market. Whether the Acorn desktop market will benefit from
technology developed for the NCs/STBs remains to be seen. Thus far
there has been very little benefit as far as I can see.
Some might say "Well if you think PCs are better, go and buy one!". If
everyone with doubts about the long-term viability of the Acorn market
does that, then the Acorn market will die. Those who are pro-Acorn (I
count myself amongst them) have a valid concern on this point IMHO.
James
--
James Hammerton, Research Student, School of Computer Science,
University of Birmingham | Home Page: http://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/~jah/
Connectionist NLP WWW Page: http://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/~jah/CNLP/cnlp.html
Replace "seemysigfile" with "james" in my email address
James Hammerton
Sam Smith (sa...@techie.com) wrote:
> In article <893ebf5448%y000...@tu-bs.de>, Thomas Boroske
> <URL:mailto:y000...@ws.rz.tu-bs.de> wrote:
> > In message <na.7f23a54854....@no-spam.co.uk>
> > Andrew John Wall <andy...@no-spam.co.uk> wrote:
> > > The way I see it is this. Acorn Risc machines never really became the
> > > great sucess (In terms of sales at least) that they could have done. Why?
> > > Because of the perceived lack of software. Well, with Java there will be
> > > that software and when it is a case of a PC and an Acorn having the same
> > > quality of software but with very different OS's - one stable, intuative,
> > > effient, and well thought out, the other unstable, very ineffient and
> > > quite simply an OS that treats the user as a dummy without understanding
> > > that people *learn* I have a feeling that people will start to look
> > > towards Acorn as a viable alternative.
> > Do you really think so ? Consider
> > 1) Acorn will probably keep lagging behind in Java developments
> ROTFL - surely aAcorn are behind on 1.1 but they are as sure as hell ahead on
> 1.2.
So where can I buy a Java kit for my RiscPC? ATM you can go out and
get Java for PCs. I don't see a Java kit on sale for RiscOS. Some
people have the beta release. That's it as far as I'm aware.
>
> > 2) PCs are simply faster for more money
> yeah - probably for *more* money.
Nope. PCs are faster for less money.
> > 3) If you're thinking of using ONLY Java (or mainly), then why not
> > go Linux - this adresses your "unstable" point
> If you are thinking of only ever running Java only, then maybe Risc OS is not
> the best platform. Sun's JavaOS probably is.
>
> > I think you're seeing things a bit simple. For example, Java applications
> > of a decent size will need very fast hardware and/or constantly updated
> > JIT technology - so Acorn will have to put in a lot of work there.
> And a 400MHZ processor wont do that will it not (OK, 276Mhz is shipping now,
> so I can assume that it will be close to 400 by the time Phoebe ships).
By which time PCs will move onto faster speeds still.
> > > People have chosen PC's because they percieve them to be the industry
> > > standard and have decided that Acorn are not.
> > If I choose a PC then it's because I simply can't afford the absolutely
> > insane 5200DM Acorn are Asking for Phoebe.
> Your choice.
True it is his choice. But the point he was making was that the high
price of the Phoebe will put many people off, especially considering
the bangs per buck you can get in a PC. If enough people choose as he
does then the Acorn market will die.
Ian
In article <na.eb1eb54855...@argonet.co.uk>,
"David B" <ris...@argonet.co.uk> writes:
> I can leave my current Acorn (Risc PC 600) running all day and never
> have to CTRL+BREAK whereas I leave PC's at work for 10 mins or so
> and its a case of "This program has performed an illegal operartion
> and must exit immediately". I only know of one very unstable product
> on my Acorn and that is iXRC (Im sure Quadworks newer version cures
> this).
If your PC is crashing every 10 minutes and you're putting up with it,
then you're mad. There's no way anyone in their right mind would put
up with it, if you're telling the truth then your work machine is
seriously shagged and needs some expert attention.
Do you *honestly* think that all PCs with Windows installed are
crashing every 10 minutes? Do you *really* believe that?
Even once an hour would be unacceptable. Once a day on a regular basis
is unacceptable. Do you think that someone would sit there in front of
the machine and suffer a single crash every day without getting
something done about it? If only they would, I.T. departments would be
much happier. In computer rooms where people don't have a dedicated
computer, such problems can go undetected for some time as the machine
might crash 4 times in one day, but each time to a different person,
so no-one's that likely to complain. In an environment like mine, if a
machine crashes 4 times per day, the same person's going to be sat in
front of it each time and is going to complain.
> Risc OS is all in ROM - still!
Now that's a major advantage... Take your hard disc out and see what
you can do. Backup your disc, then install some major apps and see how
much system stuff you have to install before they'll run properly.
[blether about low-memory OS deleted]
I just paid 130 UKP for 128MBytes of memory for my Unix box. I didn't
need that much, but it's so cheap it doesn't matter.
> Im sure JAVA will be tuned to work hand in hand with Risc OS.
It'll run with riscos, that's for sure. But you're going to see file
dialogues.
> Look at the C language
Not relevant, Java's not just a language, it's an environment which
includes standardised window management stuff, it's almost an
operating system in its own right.
> many Risc OS applications (and Games) have been written in C and the
> language calls on the various existing SWI's etc.. Im sure JAVA wont
> have problems with this.
So you think that a program written by someone who's never heard of
Acorn will integrate seamlessly with RiscOs to the extent of providing
drag'n'drop file loading/saving and all the other gizmos?
> I have to agree I do like Windows NT so Im not totally biased.
I can't stand it, I think Windows 95 and Windows NT are crap. But I
know they don't crash every 5 minutes like others around here seem to
believe.
> I have never left my Risc PC running for months without touching it
> (switching off) so I dont know if it would stay afloat without an
> "abort on Data fetch" error or similar. Depends on the software
> being run I think.
The problems I had were with error boxes appearing and stopping the
whole machine in its tracks. This meant that I either had to be near
the machine whenever it was doing anything, or I had to run some patch
that caused the error box to just vanish, but then I wouldn't know
what was going on. There was no useful scripting languages, and
taskwindows were very unreliable. There was no reliable way to
automate processing with GUI apps, so any unattended work I wanted it
to do would have to run in a taskwindow. This usually caused more
trouble than it was worth, and together with the terrible "obey" files
just caused nothing but problems. I tried leaving the machine on at
night to download news, but about three times per month I'd find it
had locked up overnight, leaving the modem to timeout. I just couldn't
trust it, no matter how much I fiddled around with it.
> Much of the ROM bases software /seems/ stable. Its the software
> written for the Computer that is the problem if any.
No, the OS is too easy to get into a muddle.
> I think its time we buried this silly argument. Anyone who is /not/
> pro-Acorn then LEAVE now!!!! Go and find a pro PC group and tell
> Bill how much you love him.
Some of us PC users hate bill too (no Microsoft software on my
machine), some of us have moved from the Acorn world to other worlds,
but like to keep an eye on what's happening. We see people sticking
their heads in the ground and talking crap, so we try to redress the
balance a little, as you should *know* your enemy, not make up a less
frightening version!
--
Ian - Edit address before mailing. | Have you got a question you want to ask
Running Linux in the UK. | Usenet? Search www.dejanews.com first!
-- There are no facts, only opinions --
Ian
In article <485542FAED%r...@kiwisoftware.demon.com.uk>,
Rob Kendrick <r...@kiwisoftware.demon.com.uk> writes:
> I don't know if your a programmer, but when I was learning to
> program RiscOS when I binned by PC, it seems just plain silly; but
> you soon reali1se that it is designed to be /VERY/ flexible.
> Windows isn't. Windows has a diffirent 'message' for every event,
> where the RiscOS window manager manages with comparativly few, which
> makes it very fast.
Hmm, well thought out? Flexible? How come you can't have virtual
memory added on then? How come you can't have pre-emptive multitasking
added? Every OS is flexible, they've all got hooks in them to allow
people to place their own code in a manner that makes it part of the
OS, I've never seen anything under RiscOS that hasn't been done under
another OS. As for lots of messages per event, RiscOS just bungs you
an event and you mess around with the bytes inside to figure out what
it is. Other OS's and X give you callbacks that are triggered when an
event happens. All this means is that other OS's do more of the
programming for you, whereas RiscOS forces you to figure out which
funtion a message applies to.
> People buy Acorns because they /want/ a computer, not because they
> /need/ one.
You'll find a lot of people in this group who'll disagree with this.
Are you saying that it's a toy? I don't think it is. I liked the
machine for the GUI, Impression and Artworks, but the hardware and the
OS were barely enough to keep them going.
> If you need a computer to be compatable with Windows, you buy a PC.
I bought a PC, but can't run Windows on it!
> If you don't and you have some sense, you buy a RiscPC.
If you don't there's a number of other OS's, one of which is RiscOs.
Riscos is almost dead and runs on extremely expensive hardware that's
far too slow, and has relatively few expansion options, with those
available being very expensive.
> A friend of mine who has a Dell P100 (old, yes) saw my SA RPC
> running Doom, Impression, Artworks and such like, and he said 'I
> want, I want!'. I pointed him to Alsystems, and now he has a
> RiscPC, and he never comes off the bloody thing.
I'm sure there's similar stories about people running RiscPC's and
seeing a PC running <countless excellent games>, Artworks (or whatever
it's called on the PC) and some DTP app similar to Impression (there's
hundreds, there's bound to be one that's as easy to use), saw the
price and jumped ship.
> This is true, Java is from Unix though, which suffers from those
> horrid save file dialogs like Windows, dynamic linking rarther than
> SWIs.
File dialogues are a pain, there's nothing that beats the filer, but
dynamic linking under unix allows a library to be stored on disc and
only the functions in use are loaded into RAM, not the entire library.
There's no real advantage to SWIs over other methods.
Ian
In article <na.18c06d4854...@argonet.co.uk>,
Ted Lepley <ted...@argonet.co.uk> writes:
> In article <6lp00p$4f3$2...@tarcus.dialup.tha.uk.quza.net>,
> ia...@pobox.DUMPTHISBIT.quza.com (Ian) wrote:
>
>> Who will need more than 640K of RAM, right?
>
> Anyone who tries to make one machine do everything, like BG.
Not even Acorn desktops these days can get away with less than 640K. I
was trying to point out that the computer is spreading into more areas
than anyone's predicted.
>> What about the spread of camcorders
>
> What do camcorders have to do with PCs? They vast majority of camcorder
> owners do not have PCs or even consider them necessary for taking Video
> films.
This point, and a few others I made, were made to show you new areas
that they are spreading into. I know you don't need a computer to
record video, but they're being used to make home movies and are
increasing in popularity.
[other similar stuff deleted]
>> These are new markets taking off, none of them involve word processing
>> and spreadsheets.
>
> You are talking about new markets. I was talking about the apparent
> lack of new software in the desk top PC market which believe has been
> satiated.
And you don't think that these are related???? You were talking about
a lack of new software, and I was talking about new markets. Surely
this shows you that new software is alive and well?
> I agree that new software will be necessary for these much
> more limited applications as will specialised hardware and expansion
> cards but see no reason why they need to determine the design and
> pricing of the basic home or office machine.
They don't, the extra functions are provided by add-on cards, this is
they way things are done in the generic computing world. You buy a
computer, if you want it to do video editing, you buy an editing card.
> Because they are flexible and can be configured/expanded to do a
> multitude of tasks for the individual who wants additional features
> is not a reason why the mass market should have to buy the features
> and complications when the basic machine will meet its needs.
They won't. Where's the signs of this happening? Sometimes you get
bundle packs, but there's no new standard that states that a generic
PC must have a video editing card in it for example. The computer
provides the basic functions, in the PC world the motherboard often
just provides somewhere for the processor to sit, the logic to make it
work, somewhere for the RAM to sit, and lots of expansion connectors.
The rest can be configured to whatever need the customer wants.
If you're talking about software, the move in the PC market appears to
be towards making the software "easy to use", although they appear to
be trying to accomplish this by adding stacks of help files and
animated characters and setup "wizards" --- it would be much better if
they would figure out better ways to present the apps, but there you
go eh.
> I would envisage it as a small computer controlling all these
> external functions each of which has its own necessary
> intelligence. My VCR does all this on its own. A games machine does
> this on its own. My cooker does this on its own. My answering
> machine does this on its own. This is what I think embedded control
> means.
That's one way to go, but can you phone up your video and check you
set it to record a programme? What if the programme is late because of
the cricket, can your video read teletext or whatever and cater for
this, or can you reset it from work? Can you phone up your cooker and
make it come on half an hour later because you're going to be late
home? How many messages can your answering machine store, and what
backup facilities does it have for messages that you want to keep? Can
you have a record of all communication between your bank and yourself,
with all letters, emails, answering machine messages and phone
conversations stored together, in a way that makes it plain which one
relates to which?
> It would be nice to have a central computer to control and program
> all the others, but see no need to move all this, almost
> unpredictable for an unknown user, into one desktop computer.
You don't need all the intelligence in a desktop computer, but you
need to be able to get the data back to it, and it needs to be able to
control the devices in order to allow the above to happen reliably
without a different implementation for every make and model of a
single device.
> The main controlling computer meeds very little processing power, speed or
> storage. Sounds like a STB to me.(:-)
I don't like the idea of having all my data stored on a remote machine
that's controlled by a company. What if you fall behind on your bills
and they cut off your connection until you pay up? Currently, if the
police think you're doing something illegal and they search your
house, they are allowed to take away anything that they think relates
to a crime. However, if it's a computer-related crime, they take away
the entire computer, not the stuff on it that they think is
illegal. In other words, the law is still a long way behind
technology, so despite the data being yours, you could find yourself
cut off from it if the storage is controlled by a commercial
organisation.
Phil/Lin Spiegelhalter
In article <7eb09b5448%pe...@foursqre.demon.co.uk>,
Peter Bell <pe...@foursqre.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <ant11141...@mcfamily.demon.co.uk>
> Andy McMullon <skyp...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> > OTOH the Peanut will give me RiscOS and all my favourite apps wherever
> > I may roam! Having used the A7000+ in local schools I know it is a
> > useful machine - even at 48 Mhz! So guess who will get my money?
> I agree entirely. Just form an orderly queue *behind* me. ;-)
Phil: We'll be wanting an updated PC emulator too (although DOSdisc images
do for many things)
--
Phil and Lin Spiegelhalter - Fillin http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/fillin
Acorn RiscPC+StrongArm Videodesk, Photodesk, Cluttered desk...
Rob Kendrick
In message <na.e21d014855...@argonet.co.uk>
"David B" <ris...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> > You learn to hate Windows. I had a Windows PC in one shape or another for
> > nearly 10 years, but when a friend talked me into spending my hard earned
> > cash on a StrongARM RiscPC, I started to hate Windows straight away. I
> > avoid using it at all costs. I used to love it. Sorry.
>
> Well done. This is a first. Someone who was a member of the Borg has
> learned to leave the "collective" and join the human race ;-)
Have you been watching the latest episodes of Voyager? It's happend there...
Cheers,
Rob Kendrick
--
Real Email: rob at kiwisoftware dot demon dot co dot uk
Does this look purple to you?
This is an example taglines file for ZapEmail. You should replace this with a
suitably-formatted file of your own.
Liam Gretton
In article <6lovkr$4f3$1...@tarcus.dialup.tha.uk.quza.net>, Ian
<URL:mailto:ia...@pobox.DUMPTHISBIT.quza.com> wrote:
> RiscOS is not stable under load. It's got a nice GUI in parts, but
[snip]
> My NT box at work usually runs for a month before collapsing, and
> that's it being on 24 hours per day, not switched off at night. I've
My two RPCs (one at home, one at work) are just as reliable. Both are running
the much-maligned ANT suite and let's see... checking my boot log, this
machine was last rebooted around midnight on the 28th of May, and it
automatically connects to the net twice a day to exchange mail and news with
Demon. Before that, it was rebooted on the 17th of March. My work machine,
which is under a much heavier load, running AlphaNet and all sorts of other
things, gets booted more often as I'm also developing software on it.
Obviously, YMMV, but it's just not right to say that RISC OS is unstable.
--
Liam Gretton
li...@binliner.demon.co.uk
l...@star.le.ac.uk
Paul Bell
In article <EuI1I7.EsE.0.sta...@dcs.ed.ac.uk>,
> [snip]
>
> > I think its time we buried this silly argument. Anyone who is /not/
> > pro-Acorn then LEAVE now!!!! Go and find a pro PC group and tell Bill
> > how much you love him.
> With this point, you seem to be missing the point of at least some of
> the postings on this thread, which is that various people who *are*
> pro-Acorn are worried that the Acorn machines are falling so far behind
> that *despite* the easier to use nature of the machines and their
> greater reliability, the advantages over PCs are being lost.
[snip even more PC is better]
I think the key word there is *SOME*. As usual we have yet another thread
which *may* have started constructively but degenerates almost instantly
into slagging off Acorn hardware.
Will you all please show some respect to other users of the net and
* TAKE IT TO ADVOCACY *
Follow ups set, thankyou.
Paul
--
__ o _ _ __ _@_ ___
| |__||| | ||_ / | \ Powered by Acorn // \\
|__| ||| ||__ / | \ RISCOS & StrongARM |_____|
-- at Argonet -- < (_) > ... in Swansea ... \_____/
.co.uk * Please note my REAL email * ---|__
Ian
In article <na.2e59f64855....@no-spam.co.uk>,
Andrew John Wall <andy...@no-spam.co.uk> writes:
> In article <na.eb1eb54855...@argonet.co.uk>, "David B"
>
>> I think its time we buried this silly argument. Anyone who is /not/
>> pro-Acorn then LEAVE now!!!! Go and find a pro PC group and tell
>> Bill how much you love him.
>
> Acorns (And any other topic under that banner - like "Arsenal -
> champions!").
The thing that irks me about this group is that there's a lot of talk
about PC's crashing every 10 minutes and people having to upgrade
their machines every 6 months. It's all bullshit. If I see someone
talking crap about a computer they know nothing about, why should I
keep quiet? I'm here to find out what's happening to Acorn, but when I
see some claptrap about Intel/Microsoft software/hardware, even though
I'm not that impressed by either I'd rather respond than let the crap
go by. It seems many acorn users are only too eager to believe the
latest lies about the rest of the computing world, with good reason.
> The thing is people know what this and other Acorn groups are about
> - Pro Acorn
To a fault in many cases.
> - If people are not prepared to stick to this "policy" then leave.
And leave you to rant away in your madness! ;-)
> Yes, you can leave your messages about Acorn being crap,
It's some acorn users that get my goat, Acorn are falling way behind,
it's not a lie. What is a lie is some of the defences people are
coming up with to try and prove that this is not the case when it most
definately is.
Andrew John Wall
In article <6luuq8$24t$1...@tarcus.dialup.tha.uk.quza.net>,
ia...@pobox.DUMPTHISBIT.quza.com (Ian) wrote:
> If you don't there's a number of other OS's, one of which is RiscOs.
> Riscos is almost dead and runs on extremely expensive hardware that's
> far too slow, and has relatively few expansion options, with those
> available being very expensive.
Er... if you hate Acorns so much - and it looks like you do, why in the
world do you continue to use them? You've made three posts, all attacking
Acorn computers - from what I can see there is barely one possitive comment.
One just wonders what you are doing on this group at the moment.
Do your self a favour and go and buy a damn PC. :-)
Thomas Boroske
In message <4854f3...@argonet.co.uk>
dgs <d...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <893ebf5448%y000...@tu-bs.de>,
> Thomas Boroske <y000...@ws.rz.tu-bs.de> wrote:
>
> > 1) Acorn will probably keep lagging behind in Java developments
>
> Evidence suggests otherwise...
OK. So where's Acorn's Java 1.1 JIT ? I mean a version that doesn't
completely disable the sandbox security.
And how does it's performance compare to JITs available for
PCs ?
> > 2) PCs are simply faster for more money
>
> But not necessarily for Java...
At the moment they are, I think. Compared with RPCs.
Kind regards,
--
Thomas Boroske
Thomas Boroske
In message <ant131008bc8Qk=L...@samsmith.enterprise.net>
Sam Smith <sa...@techie.com> wrote:
> In article <893ebf5448%y000...@tu-bs.de>, Thomas Boroske
> <URL:mailto:y000...@ws.rz.tu-bs.de> wrote:
> > 1) Acorn will probably keep lagging behind in Java developments
> ROTFL - surely aAcorn are behind on 1.1 but they are as sure as hell ahead on
> 1.2.
Are you sure ? Funny, I would think at least SUN would do an 1.2 implementation
for x86 too. And I doubt Acorn can beat Sun to it.
It's also strange to assume other players will stay with 1.1 if 1.2 offers
significant advantages.
> > 2) PCs are simply faster for more money
> yeah - probably for *more* money.
Oops.
> > I think you're seeing things a bit simple. For example, Java applications
> > of a decent size will need very fast hardware and/or constantly updated
> > JIT technology - so Acorn will have to put in a lot of work there.
> And a 400MHZ processor wont do that will it not (OK, 276Mhz is shipping now,
> so I can assume that it will be close to 400 by the time Phoebe ships).
And PCs are at 400 MHz now. And are superscalar and and and.
And then there's Alphas and the like. And then there're SUNs custom
Java processors to compete with.
> > LOL :-) Do you really believe that ? Do you really think most of
> > the big players today won't be big players then ?
> Possibly - but there will be some big players then who are not big players
> now.
Yes. But do you think Acorn will be one of them ?
I was only objecting to the "level the playing field" argument, it's not
true IMO.
Thomas Boroske
In message <EuI1rz.EzM.0.sta...@dcs.ed.ac.uk>
seemys...@tardis.ed.ac.uk (James Hammerton) wrote:
> Sam Smith (sa...@techie.com) wrote:
> > In article <893ebf5448%y000...@tu-bs.de>, Thomas Boroske
> > <URL:mailto:y000...@ws.rz.tu-bs.de> wrote:
> > > 1) Acorn will probably keep lagging behind in Java developments
> > ROTFL - surely aAcorn are behind on 1.1 but they are as sure as hell ahead on
> > 1.2.
>
> So where can I buy a Java kit for my RiscPC? ATM you can go out and
> get Java for PCs. I don't see a Java kit on sale for RiscOS. Some
> people have the beta release. That's it as far as I'm aware.
You can apparently now buy a Java 1.02 JVM from Acorn.
Last time I checked their web pages for half an hour I was unable
to find references towards availability, price and such though.
> > > If I choose a PC then it's because I simply can't afford the absolutely
> > > insane 5200DM Acorn are Asking for Phoebe.
> > Your choice.
>
> True it is his choice. But the point he was making was that the high
> price of the Phoebe will put many people off, especially considering
> the bangs per buck you can get in a PC.
It will especially put people off who want to buy a computer to
run Java apps on it. Which is what we were discussing here.
> If enough people choose as he
> does then the Acorn market will die.
Probably. Strictly speaking, it's not really a choice, since I don't
*have* the 5200 DM.
Andy McMullon
In article <6m0h9k$ov0$4...@tarcus.dialup.tha.uk.quza.net>, Ian
<URL:mailto:ia...@pobox.DUMPTHISBIT.quza.com> wrote:
> It's some acorn users that get my goat, Acorn are falling way behind,
> it's not a lie. What is a lie is some of the defences people are
> coming up with to try and prove that this is not the case when it most
> definately is.
I'm not saying it is a lie but I don't think that it is true - at least
not in any way that affects me.
Statements:
1. "Phoebe is not as fast as a P-Whatever."
Ok that maybe true in the sense of GrandPrix performance - but I don't
want a racing car I want a sensible day to day efficient machine. I
think there my Acorn still wins hands down.
2. "RiscOS is dated."
OK that may be true but then I can't think of many things that need
updating that RiscOS 4 hasn't fixed (allegedly).
3. "RiscOS software is not as abundant as Wintel stuff!"
OK that is true but there is nothing that I want to do that I can't do
(to my entire satisfaction) with the RiscOS apps that I already have (or
might buy!).
4. "Upgrading to Phoebe is too costly."
OK that maybe true for some people but it certainly isn't true for me
if you count that not inconsiderable cost of buying (yes I do believe
in buying rather than ripping off as seems to be the practice amongst
PC owning friends!) alternative PC software and learning how to use it.
5. "Phoebe is too little too late."
Well let's wait and see the performance of the production models shall
we, and what Acorn use Phoebe's MP capabilities for.....!
--
Andy: skyp...@bigfoot.com / http://www.mcfamily.demon.co.uk
Adrian John Warrick
In article <357F98...@sheffield.ac.uk>,
Danny Monaghan <D.Mon...@sheffield.ac.uk> wrote:
> I won't need to buy every year. The P166 on my desk at work has been
> performing for over a year at
> speeds that are still more than fast enough. It runs win3.11 because of the
> network here at the
> Uni, but it win run win95 and win98 if I wanted it to. When the network here
> goes on to NT
Danny, I would recommend that you DON'T upgrade to W98. I have it on very
good authority that it runs typically 10% slower than W95 (with patches) on
the same machine.
I also hope you don't buy from shops typical of one very close to my business
who admitted buying slower processors and uprating the clock by links on the
Motherboard or through the BIOS. The harddrives don't last as long with the
excessive use of W95/98. That info comes to me from someone who works for a
manufacturer of hard drive testing equipment (and strangely enough whose PC
has just collapsed through Hard drive failure).
The mean failure rate is going to increase dramatically in the PC world.
Mostly due to PC manufacturers rightly or wrongly being very worried about
the possible in-roads made by the NC and who are cutting corners in all
directions.
Computer Shopper recommended NOT upgrading to W98. If the vast majority don't
upgrade we could see M$ in BIG trouble. Especially if it is broken up by the
DOJ.
Adrian
--
__ __ __ __ __ ___ _____________________________________________
|__||__)/ __/ \|\ ||_ | /
| || \\__/\__/| \||__ | /...Internet access for all Acorn RISC machines
___________________________/ awar...@argonet.co.uk
Kira L. Brown
In message <ant14161...@mcfamily.demon.co.uk>
Andy McMullon <skyp...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
(I'm not attacking you, Andy, I'm agreeing with you.)
> Statements:
>
> 1. "Phoebe is not as fast as a P-Whatever."
The speed of my machine is dictated by how quickly I can tell it what
to do. It has now got to the point where the processor power of my
machine is such that it responds instantly to (almost) any given
command, excepting my simulations, which would have to run overnight
on anything short of a supercomputer.
> 2. "RiscOS is dated."
I don't care. The Win32 environment is more dated, if anything, and
it's what's underneath that counts. Preemption is important, yes, but
I'd far rather have QoS.
> 3. "RiscOS software is not as abundant as Wintel stuff!"
Diamonds aren't as abundant as graphite, but I'd rather have the former
allotrope of carbon.
> 4. "Upgrading to Phoebe is too costly."
Compared to spending my whole life messing about with Windows?
Even if I run Linux on the PC, it's still more admin-bound that RISC OS.
I run Linux on my server boxes, thank you very much.
> 5. "Phoebe is too little too late."
We'll see.
kira.
--
Kira L. Brown. http://www.neutralino.demon.co.uk/
David Courtney
In article <5adf3d5648%kbr...@neutralino.demon.co.uk>, Kira L. Brown
<kbr...@neutralino.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> [ Andy McMullon wrote]
>
> We'll see.
We also still have to see,
who gets a RiscOS licence for other new hardware.
Pheobe is Acorn's try if not Acorn's example. Others may have a go.
For example a set top box maker, thinks why not add a browser in here.
If said box is ARM why not get the RiscOS licence and have access to
loads of software. A set top box manufacturer doesn't want to organise
the writing of the software. They want it already available.
--
Toodle Pip,
David.A.Courtney :-) http://www.jinksies.com/
/anon/ ftp://ftp.jinksies.oaktree.co.uk/
NEW FTP site.. NEW INTERACTIVE pages.. IDEA's welcome....
TORI SHOGI tactics page.. COMPETITVE LYING just try it...
Why CHESS TACTICS just don't work...... in...@jinksies.com
Danny Monaghan
David B wrote:
> I recenltly heared that PC's are avoid to ditch the CISC processors and
> old technology and go over to RISC. The backward-compatibility will cease
> all together and a fresh start made. It would be fun to see a new "RISC" PC
> powered by the latest "Intel tuned" StrongARM.
>
Their is already a RISC processor out for the PC - and it retains
backward compatibiliy with the CISC cookers they are using now.
It's called the WinChip from IDT. I don't know a lot about it so I have
no idea how good it is, but IDT have a website.
Danny
--
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
ŚDanny Monaghan d.mon...@sheffield.ac.ukŚ
Ś Sheffield University TelevisionŚ
Ś 5 Favell Road, Sheffield, England, S3 7QXŚ
Ś Ś
ŚThe Balby Hog Homepage: http://www.shef.ac.uk/~av1dpm/ Ś
ŚSheffield Tigers R.U.F.C.: http://www.shef.ac.uk/~av1dpm/tigers/ Ś
ŚThe PC Depreciation Society: http://www.shef.ac.uk/~av1dpm/pcds.htmlŚ
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
Ian
In article <na.5804004856....@no-spam.co.uk>,
> ia...@pobox.DUMPTHISBIT.quza.com (Ian) wrote:
>
>> If you don't there's a number of other OS's, one of which is
>> RiscOs. Riscos is almost dead and runs on extremely expensive
>> hardware that's far too slow, and has relatively few expansion
>> options, with those available being very expensive.
>
> Er... if you hate Acorns so much - and it looks like you do, why in
> the world do you continue to use them? You've made three posts, all
> attacking Acorn computers - from what I can see there is barely one
> possitive comment. One just wonders what you are doing on this
> group at the moment.
I don't hate them, I hate it when people post complete blether about
the Acorn machines, if you look at the posts I've followed up, the
poster has usually written some complete fantasy piece on the machines
or has told fat great lies about other machines. I used to own a
succession of Acorn machines, I decided to lurk in this group to see
what's happening these days, and find lots of make-believe stuff
flying around. All machines have their bad points, apart from Acorns
if you believe some of the posts here.
> Do your self a favour and go and buy a damn PC. :-)
I did, it's running Linux and it's great.
Ian
In article <ant14110...@binliner.demon.co.uk>,
Liam Gretton <li...@binliner.demon.co.uk> writes:
> In article <6lovkr$4f3$1...@tarcus.dialup.tha.uk.quza.net>, Ian
> <URL:mailto:ia...@pobox.DUMPTHISBIT.quza.com> wrote:
>
>> My NT box at work usually runs for a month before collapsing, and
>> that's it being on 24 hours per day, not switched off at night. I've
>
> My two RPCs (one at home, one at work) are just as reliable. Both
> are running the much-maligned ANT suite and let's see... checking my
> boot log, this machine was last rebooted around midnight on the 28th
> of May,
Well, either RiscOS has changed a lot since I owned an Acorn (and it
doesn't look like it) or you're not doing the kind of things I was
doing. I was trying to grab certain WWW pages at varying times to
notify me when they'd changed, the same with FTP sites, download news
and email, send some automated mail, and run a small mailing list
amongst some friends. Every night it would do an incremental backup to
a tape streamer and build a catalogue of everything on my disc drive
so I could locate files easily with !Zap (still the best editor I've
ever used, although I haven't really investigated emacs yet).
The biggest problem was with error boxes popping up on the screen and
locking the machine until OK was clicked, and some programs taking all
the free memory when run in a taskwindow, no matter what I tried to
prevent them (ChangeFSI was one of these). The scripting under RiscOS
was a pain in the rear, with the scripts behaving differently
depending on how I ran them, either double-clicking, running from
within a taskwindow, running from the F12 prompt, calling from another
script etc.
Just downloading news and mail isn't a difficult task, and doesn't put
any load on the machine. The apps you're using are designed to do it,
I was trying to use apps in more flexible ways. This is easy to do
under Unix, but under RiscOS I was getting error boxes and
unpredicatable behaviour, caused by both the OS and the app.
On my Linux box, I can do all the above and more, and still develop
apps, play quake/quakeII and run any number of word processors,
spreadsheets etc without having to reboot at all. I've never woken up
to find that my machine has fallen over, which was a regular occurence
with RiscOS. I don't find that RAM is eaten up and can't be reclaimed
as I did with RiscOS. I don't find that suddenly the serial port can't
be opened any more, or that I can't open archives any more.
> Obviously, YMMV, but it's just not right to say that RISC OS is
> unstable.
It's too easy to get the OS into a muddle from which a reboot is the
only way to clear a problem.
Stephen Burke
In article <ant12185...@dalriad.demon.co.uk>, George Buchanan <g...@dalriad.demon.co.uk> writes:
> ..Finally(ish), if it is not insulting to the Acorn developer community
> as a whole to label the whole sum of software development on the Acorn
> platform as "nothing", I don't know what is.
I don't think it's at all an insult to the developers to comment on the lack of
software - indeed, I think if developers asked for the kind of financial
returns they could get in the PC market there would probably be no commercial
Acorn software at all. The reason there isn't much software development is that
the market is too small to support it. Would Dalriada still be financially
viable if you had no educational sales? I'm one of the people who'll probably
be leaving the Acorn fold due to lack of software, but I don't blame anyone for
that, it's an inevitable consequence of a shrinking user base.
--
e----><----p | Stephen Burke | E-mail: (anti-junk mail version)
H H 1 | Gruppe FH1T (Lancaster) | stephen.burke@
H H 11 | DESY, Notkestrasse 85 | desy.de
HHHHH 1 | 22603 Hamburg, Germany | All junk mail deleted on sight!
H H 1 | "It is also a good rule not to put too much confidence in
H H 11111 | experimental results until they have been confirmed by theory"
Paul Vigay
In article <6m31cc$skj$2...@tarcus.dialup.tha.uk.quza.net>, Ian
<URL:mailto:ia...@pobox.DUMPTHISBIT.quza.com> wrote:
> I don't hate them, I hate it when people post complete blether about
> the Acorn machines, if you look at the posts I've followed up, the
> poster has usually written some complete fantasy piece on the machines
> or has told fat great lies about other machines. I used to own a
> succession of Acorn machines, I decided to lurk in this group to see
> what's happening these days, and find lots of make-believe stuff
> flying around. All machines have their bad points, apart from Acorns
> if you believe some of the posts here.
Yes, but a lot of those 'make believe' points you condemn are actually quite
real to the people who report them. Whilst I don't like (ie. hate) Windows and
anything Microsoft and would love to be able to say nasty things about it all
day long, it doesn't crash every ten minutes for me. That is not to say it
doesn't crash every ten minutes for some people (to use an example quoted
here). I know PC users who complain at it for justifiable, and different,
reasons to myself. I just find the user-interface bloated, tedious to use and
inefficient. It's actually reasonable stable on my machine - apart from the
fact installing MSIE 4 just trashed Netscape 4 which I had just installed.
However, the fact remains that Windows is such a badly written and bloated
product that some people continue to have problems. These are neither 'wild
fantasy' or lies. I've seen pro and anti Microsoft people having problems. The
big problem is that doing ANYTHING with Windows seems very hit and miss.
Sometimes something works and other times it doesn't. Some people work it ok,
some have problems. You recommend that if someone has crashes every ten
minutes then it needs re-installing, or something is amiss with their machine
in someway. This is probably the case. Mine certainly lasts longer than ten
minutes (although I could crash it if I wanted to, usually in PC World on a
busy Saturday, but I digress....). The fact remains, people shouldn't need to
keep re-installing it for it to stay working.
There are several very primitive features about Windows which seem to have
stayed throughout the years. I'm sure even Windows users would agree with me
about the stability/purpose of the (in)famous registry within Windows, capable
of rendering useless the most thoughtout/reliable machines with a little
tweaking. Even reliable Wintel machines suffer a gradual slow down from
installing new programs into an already inefficient system. This ultimately
requires a complete re-installation every couple of months to regain the speed
of the machine because it's all got clogged up somewhere.
Sure, the mere fact that there is more software, more users and thus more
potential problems will give the impression that Windows is pretty flaky
(which I'm convinced it is), but if programs weren't so cumbersome and
inefficient people would be able to housekeep their machines and gain more
reliability without having to re-install every so often.
Sure, there are also probably people using wintel machines who shouldn't be
let loose on any type of computer, but the flakiness/unreliability of Windows
hardly helps them to come to grips with it, or step back once they've done
something they shouldn't, perhaps by installing something which causes it to
crash every ten minutes.
I believe it all stems back to the fact that Microsoft have such awful
programmers that no one can tell if these crashes are software, hardware or
operator error. At least on Acorn's if someone is having problems, a quick
email here will usually spot an obvious fault which allows the user to correct
it without re-installing everything. Another great benefit of using Acorn
equipment.
--
Paul Vigay Home: pvi...@interalpha.co.uk
Liphook, Work: pvi...@bohunt.demon.co.uk
Hampshire,
UK Web homepage, inc.links to Acorn Shareware and
paranormal research: http://www.vigay.mcmail.com
Andrew John Wall
In article <6m31cc$skj$2...@tarcus.dialup.tha.uk.quza.net>,
ia...@pobox.DUMPTHISBIT.quza.com (Ian) wrote:
> I don't hate them, I hate it when people post complete blether about
> the Acorn machines, if you look at the posts I've followed up, the
> poster has usually written some complete fantasy piece on the machines
> or has told fat great lies about other machines. I used to own a
> succession of Acorn machines, I decided to lurk in this group to see
> what's happening these days, and find lots of make-believe stuff
> flying around. All machines have their bad points, apart from Acorns
> if you believe some of the posts here.
Ofcourse, if we believe your posts, all Acorns are shite and should be put
on the rubbish tip. Well, my Acorn has a wonderfull thing called a
"killfile" and it works very well thank you very much.
> > Do your self a favour and go and buy a damn PC. :-)
> I did, it's running Linux and it's great.
Point proven. Good bye "Ian" and thank god I never have to read your posts
again... :-))))
Dave Roberts
In article <6m31cc$skj$2...@tarcus.dialup.tha.uk.quza.net>, Ian
<URL:mailto:ia...@pobox.DUMPTHISBIT.quza.com> wrote:
> if you look at the posts I've followed up, the poster has usually written
> some complete fantasy piece on the machines
I don't believe anyone gave you the monopoly in predicting the future. It
may seem like fantasy to you, but this being an Acorn group, seemingly
overcrowded with cynics, a bit of optimism round here goes a long way
without being shouted down :(.
> or has told fat great lies about other machines.
Fair enough on this point except that they are only lies if they never
happened...
--
Dave Roberts
Da...@pharpech.demon.co.uk
mrp...@leeds.ac.uk
Paul Vigay
In article <1998Jun15.143323.1@v2>, Stephen Burke
<URL:mailto:fake.a...@no.junk.email> wrote:
> I don't think it's at all an insult to the developers to comment on the lack of
> software - indeed, I think if developers asked for the kind of financial
> returns they could get in the PC market there would probably be no commercial
> Acorn software at all. The reason there isn't much software development is that
> the market is too small to support it. Would Dalriada still be financially
> viable if you had no educational sales? I'm one of the people who'll probably
> be leaving the Acorn fold due to lack of software, but I don't blame anyone for
> that, it's an inevitable consequence of a shrinking user base.
Unfortunately, I agree that there probably isn't the Acorn market to fund
vast amounts of programmers fulltime. I write Acorn software in my sparetime,
mainly because I have a fulltime job which still allows me to pay the bills
etc. It's a catch-22 situation though because my software development time is
longer because I only do it in the evenings etc. If I could afford to give up
work and write software fulltime I could probably knock out a lot more
applications and start work on some more major ones, rather than concentrating
on smallish shareware applications.
Mind you, because I have a fulltime job and don't have to worry about writing
Acorn software to make a living does mean that I will continue to support
Acorn well into the future.
Paul Vigay
In article <6m32j7$tcl$1...@tarcus.dialup.tha.uk.quza.net>, Ian
<URL:mailto:ia...@pobox.DUMPTHISBIT.quza.com> wrote:
> The biggest problem was with error boxes popping up on the screen and
> locking the machine until OK was clicked, and some programs taking all
> the free memory when run in a taskwindow, no matter what I tried to
> prevent them (ChangeFSI was one of these). The scripting under RiscOS
> was a pain in the rear, with the scripts behaving differently
> depending on how I ran them, either double-clicking, running from
> within a taskwindow, running from the F12 prompt, calling from another
> script etc.
There was a module floating around sometime ago (maybe on Arcade BBS) which
automatically continued after errors occured so that machines could be left
unattended and not stop with an error waiting for a mouse-click.
Ian Lynch
Adrian John Warrick <awar...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> If the vast majority don't upgrade we could see M$ in BIG trouble.
No don't upgrade, but I doubt it will have that much immediate effect on
M$. They still make a lot from their other interests and people will
still be buying NT and 95 if not 98.
Given the current fall in the price of PCs, NCs are going to have to be
about 200 ukp each if they are to compete.
--
Ian
Ian
In article <na.9846704857...@argonet.co.uk>,
ag <nos...@argonet.co.uk> writes:
> In article <6m61n7$u5b$3...@tarcus.dialup.tha.uk.quza.net>,
> ia...@pobox.DUMPTHISBIT.quza.com (Ian) wrote:
>
>> Unfortunately, from what I've heard of events yesterday at Acorn,
>> Phoebe isn't going to see the light of day.
>
> Your not gonna leave us in the dark after a statement like that?
Err, I'm afraid I am! :-(
If what I heard is true, you'll hear about it before long. With any
luck I'm being wound up or my source is pessimistic, but I don't think
that either are the case (but then again maybe I'm being
pessimistic!). It's a case of wait and see from the look of it. I've
been trying to check their web site to see if there's been any
announcements, but it's down at the moment and there was nothing
yesterday. Wait until either nothing happens or an announcement is
made.
I've already had some email on this, I'm not saying owt else even by
email as I might be wrong (it's second-hand information), and if I'm
not I might put certain people in a bad situation.
James Hammerton
Ian (ia...@pobox.DUMPTHISBIT.quza.com) wrote:
> In article <na.9846704857...@argonet.co.uk>,
> ag <nos...@argonet.co.uk> writes:
> > In article <6m61n7$u5b$3...@tarcus.dialup.tha.uk.quza.net>,
> > ia...@pobox.DUMPTHISBIT.quza.com (Ian) wrote:
> >
> >> Unfortunately, from what I've heard of events yesterday at Acorn,
> >> Phoebe isn't going to see the light of day.
> >
> > Your not gonna leave us in the dark after a statement like that?
>
> Err, I'm afraid I am! :-(
>
> If what I heard is true, you'll hear about it before long. With any
> luck I'm being wound up or my source is pessimistic, but I don't think
> that either are the case (but then again maybe I'm being
> pessimistic!). It's a case of wait and see from the look of it. I've
> been trying to check their web site to see if there's been any
> announcements, but it's down at the moment and there was nothing
> yesterday. Wait until either nothing happens or an announcement is
> made.
>
> I've already had some email on this, I'm not saying owt else even by
> email as I might be wrong (it's second-hand information), and if I'm
> not I might put certain people in a bad situation.
Perhaps it would have been better not to have mentioned it then!
Hell I'm now wondering whether Acorn's finally gone bust, or worse has
been bought out by Microsoft. Leaving it to people's imagination is
always worse than letting them know what actually happened.
James (curious as to what the f*** he's on about)
--
James Hammerton, Research Student, School of Computer Science,
University of Birmingham | Home Page: http://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/~jah/
Connectionist NLP WWW Page: http://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/~jah/CNLP/cnlp.html
Replace "seemysigfile" with "james" in my email address
Paul C.Robinson
In article <n56B...@ianlynch.demon.co.uk>, Ian Lynch
--
PC Robinson Acorn@heart
Aleph One Support:- Tel UK (00 44) 1708 403028 Fax UK (00 44) 171 9199401
Aleph One Ltd, Bottisham, CAMBRIDGE, CB5 9BA, UK Tel (00 44) 1223 811679
Web site http://www.aleph1.co.uk/
Local Acorn Dealership 140004 South Essex.
The Havering Acorn Centre:- Tel 01708 852225 Fax 0171 9199401
Web site http://www.havaccnt.demon.co.uk/
Paul Vigay
In article <ant17113...@havaccnt.demon.co.uk>, Paul C.Robinson
Indeed. you can get Acorn NetStations from places like Littlewoods or Tempo
for around the 250.00 ukp mark.
--
Paul Vigay Acorn Programming,
__\\|//__ Internet Consultancy
http://www.vigay.mcmail.com (` o-o ') & Web Design
-----------------------------------ooO-(_)-Ooo---------------------------
Living in a Microsoft Free Zone!
Andy McMullon
In article <Eup2B9.BEq.0.sta...@dcs.ed.ac.uk>, James Hammerton
<URL:mailto:seemys...@tardis.ed.ac.uk> wrote:
>
> Perhaps it would have been better not to have mentioned it then!
>
> Hell I'm now wondering whether Acorn's finally gone bust, or worse has
> been bought out by Microsoft. Leaving it to people's imagination is
> always worse than letting them know what actually happened.
>
Lots of things are better not said.
Including all the negative criticism we've had of Acorn lately from
their own supporters. I mean with friends like some of us Acorn sure
don't need enemies!
It would serve some people right if they did pull the plug on Phoebe.
I do want a new RiscOS desktop machine - even if it is yellow and
called after a dizzy, but likeable, sitcom character!
Andrew Veitch
In article <ant171201b49q#H...@bohunt.demon.co.uk>, Paul Vigay
<URL:mailto:pvi...@bohunt.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> Indeed. you can get Acorn NetStations from places like Littlewoods or Tempo
> for around the 250.00 ukp mark.
Is this for the home version with modem - and if so, is it possible
to get hold of the 'corporate' ethernet model at a similar price
from anywhere? Or failing that, can I buy the above, rip out [1] the
modem and put an ethernet podule in instead??
[1] Not literally of course ;-)
--
Andrew Veitch mailto:a...@who.net
Vision Internet Services http://www.vision.u-net.com/
(Speaking personally)
|- The future's bright - the future's yellow ... -|
Paul Vigay
In article <ant17182...@scully.vision>, Andrew Veitch
<URL:mailto:a...@who.net> wrote:
> In article <ant171201b49q#H...@bohunt.demon.co.uk>, Paul Vigay
> <URL:mailto:pvi...@bohunt.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > Indeed. you can get Acorn NetStations from places like Littlewoods or Tempo
> > for around the 250.00 ukp mark.
>
> Is this for the home version with modem - and if so, is it possible
> to get hold of the 'corporate' ethernet model at a similar price
> from anywhere? Or failing that, can I buy the above, rip out [1] the
> modem and put an ethernet podule in instead??
>
> [1] Not literally of course ;-)
Well, I have an Ethernet model sitting on the floor at home (sadly deceased!)
and it does indeed have an ethernet card in it, fitted into what I can only
describe as a standard looking Acorn backplane. This begs the question of
whether or not the home, telephone version has an internal modem card which
will work in desktop machines..... However, if my one is anything to go by, it
does look like you should be able to swap them around.
George Buchanan
In article <n56B...@ianlynch.demon.co.uk>, Ian Lynch
<URL:mailto:i...@ianlynch.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> Given the current fall in the price of PCs, NCs are going to have to be
> about 200 ukp each if they are to compete.
>
they're based on a sustainable standard, whereas cheap PCs have always
been around, they're part of a "passed standard", and therein lies the
rub.
...equally, one huge advantage of NCs/terminals in manufacturing
environments is their lack of HD. Just think about a standard PC
hard drive near a 100Ton press. Nasty ;-)
--
George Buchanan, Dalriada Data Technology
74 Greville Road, Warwick, CV34 5PJ
Phone/Fax: [+44] (0)1926 492459
Alex Holloway
In article <31314d5748%runny...@manorsch2.demon.co.uk>,
Richard Walker <runny...@mindless.com> wrote:
[snip]
> Acorn could then concentrate on getting their SA1500-based STB boxes
> running all the 'RISC OS desktop' bits and making them a 'product'... at
> about a third the cost of Phoebe.
> Come on, how many people here who have said they will /not/ buy a Phoebe
> would actually think again if the price was divided by three? (OK, at the
> cost of expandability... but it will still be a /fast/ RISC OS box!)
Yeah of course i'd buy it - so long as it could still take PCI cards. (PC
compatibility, cos i want to play QuakeII and Incoming, and plug in a 3D
card!)
My problem with Phoebe is it's too flippin' expensive!
--
Alex Holloway
"\ / "
http://acornusers.org/existence/
/ \