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IDE, IDEFS and ADFS
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Jim Nagel
May 16, 2013, 8:02:24 PM5/16/13
to
Realization has dawned on me that I am muddled in my thinking about
IDE and IDEFS and ADFS. Can a drive be IDE at the same time as being
ADFS?
So far in my RiscPC, any drives have been plugged into the sockets on
the motherboard. Are these IDE ports?
The machine has a Unipod with physically identical sockets. These, I
presume, are IDE ports.
Am I correct in thinking that these sockets will require using
Simtec�IDEFS instead of ADFS? If so, in what way does the difference
come into play -- is it to do with the formatting of the disc, or
what?
I want to take a spare (quiet) drive from the Iyonix and use it on the
RiscPC. This drive says "ADFS::Castle.$..." in the titlebar of all
its directory windows. Will there be problems if I plug it into the
Unipod? Will access be slowed down somehow?
Part of my confusing possibly stems from my current (noisy) boot drive
on the RiscPC registering itself in every directory titlebar as
"ADFS::IDEdrive4.$..." (I bought it from APDL; Dave Holden says the
name IDEdrive4 is what he gave it when he formatted it.)
According to Wikipedia:
The terms "integrated drive electronics" (IDE), "enhanced
IDE" and "EIDE" have come to be used interchangeably with
ATA (now Parallel ATA, or PATA).
--
Jim Nagel www.archivemag.co.uk
>> "from" address is genuine but will change. website has current one.
IDE and IDEFS and ADFS. Can a drive be IDE at the same time as being
ADFS?
So far in my RiscPC, any drives have been plugged into the sockets on
the motherboard. Are these IDE ports?
The machine has a Unipod with physically identical sockets. These, I
presume, are IDE ports.
Am I correct in thinking that these sockets will require using
Simtec�IDEFS instead of ADFS? If so, in what way does the difference
come into play -- is it to do with the formatting of the disc, or
what?
I want to take a spare (quiet) drive from the Iyonix and use it on the
RiscPC. This drive says "ADFS::Castle.$..." in the titlebar of all
its directory windows. Will there be problems if I plug it into the
Unipod? Will access be slowed down somehow?
Part of my confusing possibly stems from my current (noisy) boot drive
on the RiscPC registering itself in every directory titlebar as
"ADFS::IDEdrive4.$..." (I bought it from APDL; Dave Holden says the
name IDEdrive4 is what he gave it when he formatted it.)
According to Wikipedia:
The terms "integrated drive electronics" (IDE), "enhanced
IDE" and "EIDE" have come to be used interchangeably with
ATA (now Parallel ATA, or PATA).
--
Jim Nagel www.archivemag.co.uk
>> "from" address is genuine but will change. website has current one.
Matthew Phillips
May 17, 2013, 2:37:03 AM5/17/13
to
In message <5e8efa4...@nails.abbeypress.net>
> So far in my RiscPC, any drives have been plugged into the sockets on the
> motherboard. Are these IDE ports?
That's right. There are two IDE sockets on the motherboard. The IDE system
generally has sockets in pairs, with one drive a "master" and one a "slave".
This must be something to do with how they are addressed by the electronics.
The RISC PC has only two IDE sockets altogether (one pair), whereas the
majority of desktop PCs of the era had two pairs. As the hard drive takes
one, and most users have an optical drive also, fitting a second IDE hard
drive required adding a podule-based IDE interface. The Iyonix has four IDE
sockets on the motherboard.
The built-in floppy drives in each machine, although also accessed via ADFS,
do not take up IDE sockets.
> The machine has a Unipod with physically identical sockets. These, I
> presume, are IDE ports.
Correct. The Unipod covers three functions, IDE, USB and 100Mb ethernet.
When you bought it you will have paid for specific aspects to be enabled, so
if you did not shell out the full amount it is possible the IDE sockets will
not be operable. They could be enabled upon further payment if this was the
case.
> Am I correct in thinking that these sockets will require using Simtec IDEFS
> instead of ADFS? If so, in what way does the difference come into play --
> is it to do with the formatting of the disc, or what?
I am not an expert on this aspect, so I hope others will join in.
Essentially, any podule system for attaching drives like the Unipod has to
provide its own filing system, because ADFS specifically relates to the
built-in floppy drive and the motherboard IDE sockets (though optical drives
are handled by CDFS, of course). The podule ROM contains a filing system
module to allow the drives on the podule to be addressed by the operating
system.
I don't know about the naming of these filing systems. I would have thought
that competing podules would have had to have registered different filing
system names, so APDL's Blitz podule will presumably call its filing system
something different.
Most podule-based filing systems offer a number of facilities over ADFS.
Most importantly they usually allow for each drive to be partitioned. With
partitioning, each physical drive appears as several separate drives on the
icon bar. Partitioning is useful if the capacity of the drive is too large
to be supported by RISC OS. Over the years the maximum size of drive
addressable by FileCore (the more fundamental module which provides ADFS-like
drives to RISC OS) has been increased several times, and there has usually
been a period where we have been playing catch-up with what's available and
partitioning has therefore been useful.
The partitioning schemes vary from one manufacturer to another. The
partition information will be held on a sector at the start of the disc so
that the podule can access it quickly to determine how the "drives" on the
disc are organised. Each partition can be formatted differently. On a PC
with Linux, for example, one might format part of the drive with the ext4
filing system and part of it with a DOS/Windows compatible system like Fat16.
You get the same situation on the SD cards used for booting the Beagleboard
or Raspberry Pi. These have to boot off a FAT-based partition, but with
clever trickery it is possible for this to co-exist with a FileCore
compatible partition.
ADFS currently has no support for partitioning, and nor does FileCore as
such. The podule interface presents each partition to FileCore as though it
were a separate drive and FileCore does not know any better. This can mean,
however, that the FileCore limit of 4 permenant drives per filing system can
be hit very quickly. There are proposals to deal with both of these
problems as part of the ROOL bounty scheme.
To get back to the pointy, as a podule IDE interface will usually support
partitions, it has to have separate software for formatting the drive to
define the partitions. What I don't know is what happens if you plug in a
plain ADFS-formatted hard drive that has no partition table. I would hope
that podule interfaces would treat it sensibly and it would just work.
It would not appear to the computer as ADFS::DiscName.$ any more because ADFS
is limited to the internal motherboard IDE sockets, so it might appear
instead as IDEFS::DiscName.$. The disc name would be the same as it was
under ADFS because that's defined as part of the FileCore formatting of the
drive or partition.
The actual arrangement of sectors and files on the disc is really handled by
FileCore if it is a traditional "ADFS-like" disc, as FileCore is that part of
the system that manages that aspect. When we say that in RISC OS 4 ADFS
supports long filenames and more than 77 files per directory, it is actually
FileCore that was improved, so podule-based IDE interfaces have the same
limitations because they use FileCore too. (Yes, in theory the podule could
supply a complete replacement filing system, interfacing direct to FileSwitch
and could therefore have its own format with different features, but I don't
think that is how things have tended to have been done.)
> I want to take a spare (quiet) drive from the Iyonix and use it on the
> RiscPC. This drive says "ADFS::Castle.$..." in the titlebar of all
> its directory windows. Will there be problems if I plug it into the
> Unipod? Will access be slowed down somehow?
If it all works, the drive name will still be "Castle" but the filing system
will show "IDEFS" or whatever Simtec's filing system shows as.
I doubt access will be slower than access to drives on your RISC PC's
motherboard interfaces. Many of the podules had a selling point that they
were faster than the motherboard IDE bus.
Access might be slower than to the same drive on the Iyonix, of course,
though the Iyonix IDE interface is not especially speedy either.
Hope that helps!
--
Matthew Phillips
Durham
on 17 May 2013 Jim Nagel wrote:
> Realization has dawned on me that I am muddled in my thinking about
> IDE and IDEFS and ADFS. Can a drive be IDE at the same time as being
> ADFS?
Yes, see below.
> Realization has dawned on me that I am muddled in my thinking about
> IDE and IDEFS and ADFS. Can a drive be IDE at the same time as being
> ADFS?
> So far in my RiscPC, any drives have been plugged into the sockets on the
> motherboard. Are these IDE ports?
generally has sockets in pairs, with one drive a "master" and one a "slave".
This must be something to do with how they are addressed by the electronics.
The RISC PC has only two IDE sockets altogether (one pair), whereas the
majority of desktop PCs of the era had two pairs. As the hard drive takes
one, and most users have an optical drive also, fitting a second IDE hard
drive required adding a podule-based IDE interface. The Iyonix has four IDE
sockets on the motherboard.
The built-in floppy drives in each machine, although also accessed via ADFS,
do not take up IDE sockets.
> The machine has a Unipod with physically identical sockets. These, I
> presume, are IDE ports.
When you bought it you will have paid for specific aspects to be enabled, so
if you did not shell out the full amount it is possible the IDE sockets will
not be operable. They could be enabled upon further payment if this was the
case.
> Am I correct in thinking that these sockets will require using Simtec IDEFS
> instead of ADFS? If so, in what way does the difference come into play --
> is it to do with the formatting of the disc, or what?
Essentially, any podule system for attaching drives like the Unipod has to
provide its own filing system, because ADFS specifically relates to the
built-in floppy drive and the motherboard IDE sockets (though optical drives
are handled by CDFS, of course). The podule ROM contains a filing system
module to allow the drives on the podule to be addressed by the operating
system.
I don't know about the naming of these filing systems. I would have thought
that competing podules would have had to have registered different filing
system names, so APDL's Blitz podule will presumably call its filing system
something different.
Most podule-based filing systems offer a number of facilities over ADFS.
Most importantly they usually allow for each drive to be partitioned. With
partitioning, each physical drive appears as several separate drives on the
icon bar. Partitioning is useful if the capacity of the drive is too large
to be supported by RISC OS. Over the years the maximum size of drive
addressable by FileCore (the more fundamental module which provides ADFS-like
drives to RISC OS) has been increased several times, and there has usually
been a period where we have been playing catch-up with what's available and
partitioning has therefore been useful.
The partitioning schemes vary from one manufacturer to another. The
partition information will be held on a sector at the start of the disc so
that the podule can access it quickly to determine how the "drives" on the
disc are organised. Each partition can be formatted differently. On a PC
with Linux, for example, one might format part of the drive with the ext4
filing system and part of it with a DOS/Windows compatible system like Fat16.
You get the same situation on the SD cards used for booting the Beagleboard
or Raspberry Pi. These have to boot off a FAT-based partition, but with
clever trickery it is possible for this to co-exist with a FileCore
compatible partition.
ADFS currently has no support for partitioning, and nor does FileCore as
such. The podule interface presents each partition to FileCore as though it
were a separate drive and FileCore does not know any better. This can mean,
however, that the FileCore limit of 4 permenant drives per filing system can
be hit very quickly. There are proposals to deal with both of these
problems as part of the ROOL bounty scheme.
To get back to the pointy, as a podule IDE interface will usually support
partitions, it has to have separate software for formatting the drive to
define the partitions. What I don't know is what happens if you plug in a
plain ADFS-formatted hard drive that has no partition table. I would hope
that podule interfaces would treat it sensibly and it would just work.
It would not appear to the computer as ADFS::DiscName.$ any more because ADFS
is limited to the internal motherboard IDE sockets, so it might appear
instead as IDEFS::DiscName.$. The disc name would be the same as it was
under ADFS because that's defined as part of the FileCore formatting of the
drive or partition.
The actual arrangement of sectors and files on the disc is really handled by
FileCore if it is a traditional "ADFS-like" disc, as FileCore is that part of
the system that manages that aspect. When we say that in RISC OS 4 ADFS
supports long filenames and more than 77 files per directory, it is actually
FileCore that was improved, so podule-based IDE interfaces have the same
limitations because they use FileCore too. (Yes, in theory the podule could
supply a complete replacement filing system, interfacing direct to FileSwitch
and could therefore have its own format with different features, but I don't
think that is how things have tended to have been done.)
> I want to take a spare (quiet) drive from the Iyonix and use it on the
> RiscPC. This drive says "ADFS::Castle.$..." in the titlebar of all
> its directory windows. Will there be problems if I plug it into the
> Unipod? Will access be slowed down somehow?
will show "IDEFS" or whatever Simtec's filing system shows as.
I doubt access will be slower than access to drives on your RISC PC's
motherboard interfaces. Many of the podules had a selling point that they
were faster than the motherboard IDE bus.
Access might be slower than to the same drive on the Iyonix, of course,
though the Iyonix IDE interface is not especially speedy either.
Hope that helps!
--
Matthew Phillips
Durham
David Holden
May 17, 2013, 3:26:59 AM5/17/13
to
On 17-May-2013, Matthew Phillips <spam...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> That's right. There are two IDE sockets on the motherboard. The
> IDE system generally has sockets in pairs, with one drive a "master"
> and one a "slave". This must be something to do with how they are
> addressed by the electronics.
> The RISC PC has only two IDE sockets altogether (one pair), whereas
> the majority of desktop PCs of the era had two pairs. As the hard
> drive
> takes one, and most users have an optical drive also, fitting a
> second
> IDE hard drive required adding a podule-based IDE interface. The
> Iyonix has four IDE sockets on the motherboard.
again.
'IDE' stands for 'Integrated Drive Electronics' and describes the
nature of the hardware, just like SCSI or ST506.
The simple explanation is that ADFS, IDEFS, SCSIFS, CDFS, etc. are the
Filing Systems used on Acorn computers to talk to the appropriate
hardware. ADFS is the 'built in' filing system and addresses floppy
drives and, on later models like the RiscPC, IDE hard drives connected
to the motherboard.
There is ONE IDE socket on the RiscPC motherboard. Most 3rd party
interfaces like the Unipod have two. Each IDE socket can address 2
drives over the same cable. So that they can be addressed separately
IDE drives have a jumper which lets them be configured as 'Master' or
'Slave'. To avoid thoroughly confusing the system if you have 2 drives
sharing the same lead you must set one to Master and the other to
Slave. The master will then appear as Drive 4 and the Slave as Drive
5.
If the hardware has 2 sockets, as on the Unipod, then the same logic
applies, but as there can be 2 leads you can have 4 drives, 2 on each.
The reason you have different filing systems (ADFS and IDEFS) is to
avoid confusion as the 1st drive under each system will be Drive 4. So
you could have 2 Drive 4s (or 3 if you had a SCSI card as well), but
as they're under different filing systems one would be ADFS::4 and the
other IDEFS::4.
--
David Holden - APDL - www.apdl.co.uk
Matthew Phillips
May 18, 2013, 5:41:10 AM5/18/13
to
In message <avm4e2...@mid.individual.net>
> There is ONE IDE socket on the RiscPC motherboard. Most 3rd party
> interfaces like the Unipod have two. Each IDE socket can address 2 drives
> over the same cable. So that they can be addressed separately IDE drives
> have a jumper which lets them be configured as 'Master' or 'Slave'. To
> avoid thoroughly confusing the system if you have 2 drives sharing the same
> lead you must set one to Master and the other to Slave. The master will
> then appear as Drive 4 and the Slave as Drive 5.
Yes, sorry I did get that completely wrong. It shows how long it is since I
last changed a hard drive!
(I had been puzzling over why one socket had to be slave and the other master
in each pair, and if I had thought harder I'd have remembered that there is
one socket and two drives plugged into the same lead....)
--
Matthew Phillips
Durham
on 17 May 2013 David Holden wrote:
>
> On 17-May-2013, Matthew Phillips <spam...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > The RISC PC has only two IDE sockets altogether (one pair), whereas the
> > majority of desktop PCs of the era had two pairs. As the hard drive
> > takes one, and most users have an optical drive also, fitting a second
> > IDE hard drive required adding a podule-based IDE interface. The Iyonix
> > has four IDE sockets on the motherboard.
>
> That paragraph could be hugely confusing to the OP. So let's start
> again.
[snip]
>
> On 17-May-2013, Matthew Phillips <spam...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > The RISC PC has only two IDE sockets altogether (one pair), whereas the
> > majority of desktop PCs of the era had two pairs. As the hard drive
> > takes one, and most users have an optical drive also, fitting a second
> > IDE hard drive required adding a podule-based IDE interface. The Iyonix
> > has four IDE sockets on the motherboard.
>
> That paragraph could be hugely confusing to the OP. So let's start
> again.
> There is ONE IDE socket on the RiscPC motherboard. Most 3rd party
> interfaces like the Unipod have two. Each IDE socket can address 2 drives
> over the same cable. So that they can be addressed separately IDE drives
> have a jumper which lets them be configured as 'Master' or 'Slave'. To
> avoid thoroughly confusing the system if you have 2 drives sharing the same
> lead you must set one to Master and the other to Slave. The master will
> then appear as Drive 4 and the Slave as Drive 5.
last changed a hard drive!
(I had been puzzling over why one socket had to be slave and the other master
in each pair, and if I had thought harder I'd have remembered that there is
one socket and two drives plugged into the same lead....)
--
Matthew Phillips
Durham
Jess
May 18, 2013, 6:02:45 AM5/18/13
to
In message <12b01e4d5...@sinenomine.freeserve.co.uk>
--
Jess Iyonix
Matthew Phillips <spam...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> So far in my RiscPC, any drives have been plugged into the sockets on the
>> motherboard. Are these IDE ports?
> That's right. There are two IDE sockets on the motherboard. The IDE system
> generally has sockets in pairs, with one drive a "master" and one a "slave".
They are one physical socket, like SCSI. Each socket allows 2 devices.
>> So far in my RiscPC, any drives have been plugged into the sockets on the
>> motherboard. Are these IDE ports?
> That's right. There are two IDE sockets on the motherboard. The IDE system
> generally has sockets in pairs, with one drive a "master" and one a "slave".
--
Jess Iyonix
druck
May 18, 2013, 9:46:52 AM5/18/13
to
On 17/05/2013 07:37, Matthew Phillips wrote:
> Access might be slower than to the same drive on the Iyonix, of course,
> though the Iyonix IDE interface is not especially speedy either.
It is compared to anything else in the RISC OS world, typically:-
> Access might be slower than to the same drive on the Iyonix, of course,
> though the Iyonix IDE interface is not especially speedy either.
Iyonix : 50MB/s
RPC podule : 4MB/s
RPC Motherboard : 2MB/s
---druck
Chris Evans
May 18, 2013, 11:17:45 AM5/18/13
to
In article <kn80h0$odf$1...@dont-email.me>, druck
IIRC Ben told me that the Raspberry Pi's SD interface is capable of 80MB/s
and the Beagleboard and Pandaboard about 40MB/s!
Chris Evans
--
CJE Micro's / 4D 'RISC OS Specialists'
Telephone: 01903 523222 Fax: 01903 523679
ch...@cjemicros.co.uk http://www.cjemicros.co.uk/
78 Brighton Road, Worthing, West Sussex, BN11 2EN
The most beautiful thing anyone can wear, is a smile!
and the Beagleboard and Pandaboard about 40MB/s!
Chris Evans
--
CJE Micro's / 4D 'RISC OS Specialists'
Telephone: 01903 523222 Fax: 01903 523679
ch...@cjemicros.co.uk http://www.cjemicros.co.uk/
78 Brighton Road, Worthing, West Sussex, BN11 2EN
The most beautiful thing anyone can wear, is a smile!
Andrew Wickham
May 21, 2013, 8:47:52 AM5/21/13
to
On 17 May, 07:37, Matthew Phillips <spam20...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <5e8efa4c53....@nails.abbeypress.net>
podules:
RISC Developments, Watford Electronics, HCCS, Ian Copestake/Baildon/
APDL ("IDEa" ARCIN/A3IN and Blitz, plus "Wizzo" IDEFS extension ROM
for the A4/A5000), Simtec and others. There was also "ATAFS" (ATA
being roughly synonymous with IDE), which from memory was used on the
RapIDE podule.
As an exception to the broad rule of thumb than an IDE podule will use
its own IDEFS, Castle's interface for the A3010 used ADFS.
> In message <5e8efa4c53....@nails.abbeypress.net>
> on 17 May 2013 Jim Nagel wrote:
>
> I don't know about the naming of these filing systems. I would have thought
> that competing podules would have had to have registered different filing
> system names, so APDL's Blitz podule will presumably call its filing system
> something different.
>
There are several difference versions of IDEFS for different IDE
>
> I don't know about the naming of these filing systems. I would have thought
> that competing podules would have had to have registered different filing
> system names, so APDL's Blitz podule will presumably call its filing system
> something different.
>
podules:
RISC Developments, Watford Electronics, HCCS, Ian Copestake/Baildon/
APDL ("IDEa" ARCIN/A3IN and Blitz, plus "Wizzo" IDEFS extension ROM
for the A4/A5000), Simtec and others. There was also "ATAFS" (ATA
being roughly synonymous with IDE), which from memory was used on the
RapIDE podule.
As an exception to the broad rule of thumb than an IDE podule will use
its own IDEFS, Castle's interface for the A3010 used ADFS.
Jim Nagel
May 21, 2013, 9:40:01 AM5/21/13
to
Andrew Wickham wrote on 21 May:
was ADFS there, and Castle presumably formatted it with !Hform.
When I plug it into the Unipod on the RiscPC (having sorted out the
slave/master jumper and entered requisite commands such as *configure
IDEFS, *configure IDEdrive 4, OPT 4 2) but the machine will not boot
from this drive. I have to boot with Shift held down; then I see
IDEFS on the iconbar and I have to use its menu manually to Mount this
drive.
The Unipod instructions for IDE say to be sure auto-mount is enabled
but fail to say HOW to do enable it.
(The machine DOES boot from this drive if I plug it into the
motherboard rather than into the Unipod and alter Configure to suit.)
Does anybody here have experience of a formerly motherboard drive
being moved to Unipod? Does it come down to the drive having been
formatted to begin with by Simtec's !IDEtool rather than by !Hform ?
--
Jim Nagel www.archivemag.co.uk
> There are several difference versions of IDEFS for different IDE
> podules: [[snip list]]
> As an exception to the broad rule of thumb than an IDE podule will use
> its own IDEFS, Castle's interface for the A3010 used ADFS.
The drive I'm struggling with is one that came with the Iyonix. It
> its own IDEFS, Castle's interface for the A3010 used ADFS.
was ADFS there, and Castle presumably formatted it with !Hform.
When I plug it into the Unipod on the RiscPC (having sorted out the
slave/master jumper and entered requisite commands such as *configure
IDEFS, *configure IDEdrive 4, OPT 4 2) but the machine will not boot
from this drive. I have to boot with Shift held down; then I see
IDEFS on the iconbar and I have to use its menu manually to Mount this
drive.
The Unipod instructions for IDE say to be sure auto-mount is enabled
but fail to say HOW to do enable it.
(The machine DOES boot from this drive if I plug it into the
motherboard rather than into the Unipod and alter Configure to suit.)
Does anybody here have experience of a formerly motherboard drive
being moved to Unipod? Does it come down to the drive having been
formatted to begin with by Simtec's !IDEtool rather than by !Hform ?
--
Jim Nagel www.archivemag.co.uk
Tony Moore
May 21, 2013, 10:57:08 AM5/21/13
to
On 21 May 2013, Jim Nagel <jimne...@abbeypress.co.uk> wrote:
[snip]
> The drive I'm struggling with is one that came with the Iyonix. It was
> ADFS there, and Castle presumably formatted it with !Hform.
>
> When I plug it into the Unipod on the RiscPC (having sorted out the
> slave/master
I believe that it should be set to master.
> jumper and entered requisite commands such as *configure IDEFS,
> *configure IDEdrive 4
Does that command exist?
> OPT 4 2) but the machine will not boot from this drive.
Try
*configure boot
*configure filesystem idefs
*configure drive 4
*opt 4 2
> I have to boot with Shift held down; then I see IDEFS on the iconbar
> and I have to use its menu manually to Mount this drive.
>
> The Unipod instructions for IDE say to be sure auto-mount is enabled
> but fail to say HOW to do enable it.
In the text version of the Manual, line 473 says
Whether a partition is auto-mounted is governed by the Automount flag
set from within !IDETool.
I don't know what the default is, but my backup IDEFS drive mounts
without being formatted by IDETool. I believe that it was formatted
using HForm.
Tony
[snip]
> The drive I'm struggling with is one that came with the Iyonix. It was
> ADFS there, and Castle presumably formatted it with !Hform.
>
> When I plug it into the Unipod on the RiscPC (having sorted out the
> slave/master
> jumper and entered requisite commands such as *configure IDEFS,
> *configure IDEdrive 4
> OPT 4 2) but the machine will not boot from this drive.
*configure boot
*configure filesystem idefs
*configure drive 4
*opt 4 2
> I have to boot with Shift held down; then I see IDEFS on the iconbar
> and I have to use its menu manually to Mount this drive.
>
> The Unipod instructions for IDE say to be sure auto-mount is enabled
> but fail to say HOW to do enable it.
Whether a partition is auto-mounted is governed by the Automount flag
set from within !IDETool.
I don't know what the default is, but my backup IDEFS drive mounts
without being formatted by IDETool. I believe that it was formatted
using HForm.
Tony
Jim Nagel
May 21, 2013, 11:18:54 AM5/21/13
to
Tony Moore wrote on 21 May:
>> The Unipod instructions for IDE say to be sure auto-mount is enabled
>> but fail to say HOW to do enable it.
> In the text version of the Manual, line 473 says
> Whether a partition is auto-mounted is governed by the Automount flag
> set from within !IDETool.
Is that the IDEtool manual rather than the Unipod manual? If so,
which version of IDEtool do you have? I found 1.11 on the Simtec site
before discovering 1.30 among the stuff that came with Unipod several
years ago. Is there a more recent version? Early versions seem to
think a 12GB disc is the biggest that can be handled.
> I don't know what the default is, but my backup IDEFS drive mounts
> without being formatted by IDETool. I believe that it was formatted
> using HForm.
Default does seem to be auto-mount, but that isn't happening in my
case for some reason.
Emailed Matt Edgar and Stuart Tyrrell at Unipod HQ, also support at
Simtec last night. Would be good to hear from them after all this
time.
>> The Unipod instructions for IDE say to be sure auto-mount is enabled
>> but fail to say HOW to do enable it.
> In the text version of the Manual, line 473 says
> Whether a partition is auto-mounted is governed by the Automount flag
> set from within !IDETool.
which version of IDEtool do you have? I found 1.11 on the Simtec site
before discovering 1.30 among the stuff that came with Unipod several
years ago. Is there a more recent version? Early versions seem to
think a 12GB disc is the biggest that can be handled.
> I don't know what the default is, but my backup IDEFS drive mounts
> without being formatted by IDETool. I believe that it was formatted
> using HForm.
case for some reason.
Emailed Matt Edgar and Stuart Tyrrell at Unipod HQ, also support at
Simtec last night. Would be good to hear from them after all this
time.
Chris Hughes
May 21, 2013, 12:32:35 PM5/21/13
to
In message <c8ce5d4...@nails.abbeypress.net>
> Emailed Matt Edgar and Stuart Tyrrell at Unipod HQ, also support at
> Simtec last night. Would be good to hear from them after all this
> time.
It has nothing to do with Simtec, they might have built the boards,
but whoever sold it to you should be able to assist and provide
support assuming brought new.
Which email address you using for "Unipod HQ". Stuart Tyrrell, now
lives in the USA and works in some Silicon Valley over there...
--
Chris Hughes
Jim Nagel <jimne...@abbeypress.co.uk> wrote:
> Tony Moore wrote on 21 May:
>>> The Unipod instructions for IDE say to be sure auto-mount is enabled
>>> but fail to say HOW to do enable it.
>> In the text version of the Manual, line 473 says
>> Whether a partition is auto-mounted is governed by the Automount flag
>> set from within !IDETool.
> Is that the IDEtool manual rather than the Unipod manual? If so,
> which version of IDEtool do you have? I found 1.11 on the Simtec site
> before discovering 1.30 among the stuff that came with Unipod several
> years ago. Is there a more recent version? Early versions seem to
> think a 12GB disc is the biggest that can be handled.
>> I don't know what the default is, but my backup IDEFS drive mounts
>> without being formatted by IDETool. I believe that it was formatted
>> using HForm.
> Default does seem to be auto-mount, but that isn't happening in my
> case for some reason.
> Tony Moore wrote on 21 May:
>>> The Unipod instructions for IDE say to be sure auto-mount is enabled
>>> but fail to say HOW to do enable it.
>> In the text version of the Manual, line 473 says
>> Whether a partition is auto-mounted is governed by the Automount flag
>> set from within !IDETool.
> Is that the IDEtool manual rather than the Unipod manual? If so,
> which version of IDEtool do you have? I found 1.11 on the Simtec site
> before discovering 1.30 among the stuff that came with Unipod several
> years ago. Is there a more recent version? Early versions seem to
> think a 12GB disc is the biggest that can be handled.
>> I don't know what the default is, but my backup IDEFS drive mounts
>> without being formatted by IDETool. I believe that it was formatted
>> using HForm.
> Default does seem to be auto-mount, but that isn't happening in my
> case for some reason.
Try
*configure boot
*configure filesystem idefs
*configure drive 4
*opt 4 2
Have you done this yet?
*configure boot
*configure filesystem idefs
*configure drive 4
*opt 4 2
> Emailed Matt Edgar and Stuart Tyrrell at Unipod HQ, also support at
> Simtec last night. Would be good to hear from them after all this
> time.
but whoever sold it to you should be able to assist and provide
support assuming brought new.
Which email address you using for "Unipod HQ". Stuart Tyrrell, now
lives in the USA and works in some Silicon Valley over there...
--
Chris Hughes
Tony Moore
May 21, 2013, 1:08:55 PM5/21/13
to
On 21 May 2013, Jim Nagel <jimne...@abbeypress.co.uk> wrote:
> Tony Moore wrote on 21 May:
>
> > > The Unipod instructions for IDE say to be sure auto-mount is
> > > enabled but fail to say HOW to do enable it.
>
> > In the text version of the Manual, line 473 says
> > Whether a partition is auto-mounted is governed by the Automount
> > flag set from within !IDETool.
>
> Is that the IDEtool manual rather than the Unipod manual?
An Impression file named Manual, and a text version named Read Me!, came
>
> > > The Unipod instructions for IDE say to be sure auto-mount is
> > > enabled but fail to say HOW to do enable it.
>
> > In the text version of the Manual, line 473 says
> > Whether a partition is auto-mounted is governed by the Automount
> > flag set from within !IDETool.
>
> Is that the IDEtool manual rather than the Unipod manual?
with the Unipod, so far as I can remember. Both files are date-stamped
10 Sep 1997, and are concerned only with IDEFS. IDETool also has a !Help
file, date-stamped 21 Nov 1999, within it. Its content is similar to
that of the Manual.
> If so, which version of IDEtool do you have?
> I found 1.11 on the Simtec site before discovering 1.30 among the
> stuff that came with Unipod several years ago. Is there a more recent
> version?
> Early versions seem to think a 12GB disc is the biggest that can be
> handled.
Tony
druck
May 21, 2013, 2:33:07 PM5/21/13
to
On 21/05/2013 15:57, Tony Moore wrote:
> Try
>
> *configure boot *configure filesystem idefs *configure drive 4 *opt 4
> 2
The 'Drive' configuration is for ADFS. IDEFS variants should use their
> Try
>
> *configure boot *configure filesystem idefs *configure drive 4 *opt 4
> 2
own setting, usually called 'IDEDrive' or 'IDEFSDrive'.
---druck
Tony Moore
May 21, 2013, 3:23:04 PM5/21/13
to
3) Making a drive bootable
[snip]
*con. Boot
*con. FileSystem IDEFS
*con. Drive 4
which is as I wrote, above.
Tony
Brian Carroll
May 21, 2013, 3:30:50 PM5/21/13
to
In article <c8ce5d4...@nails.abbeypress.net>, Jim Nagel
formatted using HForm v2.56. This is on a RiscPC with RISC OS
v4.39. Could the following note, which I added to the Boot
directory of both discs, have a bearing on your problems?
"... Both discs formatted by !HForm v2.56. !HForm uses an
IDLength of 19 bits; !IDETool v1.30 (supplied with UNIpod) uses
18 bits, hence more wasted space. Do not use !HForm v2.58 (from
RISC OS 6) which destroys the IDEFS auto-mount flag on the disc
partition, so the disc is not seen on booting."
Brian.
--
______________________________________________________________
Brian Carroll, Ripon, North Yorkshire, UK
______________________________________________________________
<jimne...@abbeypress.co.uk> wrote:
> Tony Moore wrote on 21 May:
> >> The Unipod instructions for IDE say to be sure auto-mount
> >> is enabled but fail to say HOW to do enable it.
> > In the text version of the Manual, line 473 says Whether a
> > partition is auto-mounted is governed by the Automount
> > flag set from within !IDETool.
> Is that the IDEtool manual rather than the Unipod manual? If
> so, which version of IDEtool do you have? I found 1.11 on the
> Simtec site before discovering 1.30 among the stuff that came
> with Unipod several years ago. Is there a more recent
> version? Early versions seem to think a 12GB disc is the
> biggest that can be handled.
> > I don't know what the default is, but my backup IDEFS drive
> > mounts without being formatted by IDETool. I believe that it
> > was formatted using HForm.
> Default does seem to be auto-mount, but that isn't happening
> in my case for some reason.
I use 2 x 80GB discs on Port 0 IDE of a UNIpod. Both were
> Tony Moore wrote on 21 May:
> >> The Unipod instructions for IDE say to be sure auto-mount
> >> is enabled but fail to say HOW to do enable it.
> > In the text version of the Manual, line 473 says Whether a
> > partition is auto-mounted is governed by the Automount
> > flag set from within !IDETool.
> Is that the IDEtool manual rather than the Unipod manual? If
> so, which version of IDEtool do you have? I found 1.11 on the
> Simtec site before discovering 1.30 among the stuff that came
> with Unipod several years ago. Is there a more recent
> version? Early versions seem to think a 12GB disc is the
> biggest that can be handled.
> > I don't know what the default is, but my backup IDEFS drive
> > mounts without being formatted by IDETool. I believe that it
> > was formatted using HForm.
> Default does seem to be auto-mount, but that isn't happening
> in my case for some reason.
formatted using HForm v2.56. This is on a RiscPC with RISC OS
v4.39. Could the following note, which I added to the Boot
directory of both discs, have a bearing on your problems?
"... Both discs formatted by !HForm v2.56. !HForm uses an
IDLength of 19 bits; !IDETool v1.30 (supplied with UNIpod) uses
18 bits, hence more wasted space. Do not use !HForm v2.58 (from
RISC OS 6) which destroys the IDEFS auto-mount flag on the disc
partition, so the disc is not seen on booting."
Brian.
--
______________________________________________________________
Brian Carroll, Ripon, North Yorkshire, UK
______________________________________________________________
Jim Nagel
May 21, 2013, 4:24:57 PM5/21/13
to
Chris Hughes wrote on 21 May:
> Try *configure boot [etc] Have you done this yet?
Yup.
>> Emailed Matt Edgar and Stuart Tyrrell at Unipod HQ, also support at
>> Simtec last night. Would be good to hear from them after all this
>> time.
> It has nothing to do with Simtec, they might have built the boards,
> but whoever sold it to you should be able to assist and provide
> support assuming brought new.
Bought the Unipod direct from Matt Edgar at a show. I'm pretty sure
Simtec wrote IDEtool, because version 1.11 was on the Simtec website
for an earlier IDE board.
> Which email address you using for "Unipod HQ". Stuart Tyrrell now
Stuart Tyrrell: info at advantagesix.com
I think I found these addresses on the STDevel website.
> Try *configure boot [etc] Have you done this yet?
Yup.
>> Emailed Matt Edgar and Stuart Tyrrell at Unipod HQ, also support at
>> Simtec last night. Would be good to hear from them after all this
>> time.
> It has nothing to do with Simtec, they might have built the boards,
> but whoever sold it to you should be able to assist and provide
> support assuming brought new.
Simtec wrote IDEtool, because version 1.11 was on the Simtec website
for an earlier IDE board.
> Which email address you using for "Unipod HQ". Stuart Tyrrell now
> lives in the USA and works in some Silicon Valley over there...
Matt Edgar: info at stdevel.co.uk
Stuart Tyrrell: info at advantagesix.com
I think I found these addresses on the STDevel website.
Dave Symes
May 21, 2013, 4:30:30 PM5/21/13
to
In article <534f74df6d...@argonet.co.uk>,
Brian Carroll <bric-...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
[Snippy]
Dave
--
Dave Triffid
Brian Carroll <bric-...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
[Snippy]
> "... Both discs formatted by !HForm v2.56. !HForm uses an
> IDLength of 19 bits; !IDETool v1.30 (supplied with UNIpod) uses
> 18 bits, hence more wasted space. Do not use !HForm v2.58 (from
> RISC OS 6) which destroys the IDEFS auto-mount flag on the disc
> partition, so the disc is not seen on booting."
> Brian.
What about !HForm 2.59 does that sort the 2.58 problem?
> IDLength of 19 bits; !IDETool v1.30 (supplied with UNIpod) uses
> 18 bits, hence more wasted space. Do not use !HForm v2.58 (from
> RISC OS 6) which destroys the IDEFS auto-mount flag on the disc
> partition, so the disc is not seen on booting."
> Brian.
Dave
--
Dave Triffid
Jim Nagel
May 21, 2013, 6:34:13 PM5/21/13
to
Jim Nagel wrote on 21 May:
> Chris Hughes wrote on 21 May:
1.30 of IDEtool, whose runimage is dated 2004. The IDEtool helpfile,
though, at the bottom says copyright Simtec 1999.
> Chris Hughes wrote on 21 May:
>> It has nothing to do with Simtec, they might have built the boards,
>> but whoever sold it to you should be able to assist and provide
>> support assuming brought new.
>> but whoever sold it to you should be able to assist and provide
>> support assuming brought new.
> I'm pretty sure Simtec wrote IDEtool, because version 1.11 was on the
> Simtec website for an earlier IDE board.
Yes, Simtec definitely wrote IDEtool. The Unipod came with version
> Simtec website for an earlier IDE board.
1.30 of IDEtool, whose runimage is dated 2004. The IDEtool helpfile,
though, at the bottom says copyright Simtec 1999.
Tony Moore
May 21, 2013, 6:40:45 PM5/21/13
to
On 21 May 2013, Dave Symes <da...@triffid.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <534f74df6d...@argonet.co.uk>,
> Brian Carroll <bric-...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
[snip]
> In article <534f74df6d...@argonet.co.uk>,
> Brian Carroll <bric-...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> > "... Both discs formatted by !HForm v2.56. !HForm uses an IDLength
> > of 19 bits; !IDETool v1.30 (supplied with UNIpod) uses 18 bits,
> > hence more wasted space. Do not use !HForm v2.58 (from RISC OS 6)
> > which destroys the IDEFS auto-mount flag on the disc partition, so
> > the disc is not seen on booting."
>
> What about !HForm 2.59 does that sort the 2.58 problem?
From directory datestamps, it seems that the disc connected to my
motherboard ADFS was formatted using HForm 2.56, whereas that connected
to my Unipod IDEFS was formatted using HForm 2.59. Originally, both
discs were DOS format.
Since the disc connected to the Unipod is seen, by the IDEFS filer,
presumably its auto-mount flag is set. However, I do not understand how
this could have happened, since the disc was not formatted by IDETool.
Does ADFS have an auto-mount flag, which is the same as that of IDEFS?
Tony
Theo Markettos
May 22, 2013, 6:36:24 AM5/22/13
to
Tony Moore <old_c...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> Does ADFS have an auto-mount flag, which is the same as that of IDEFS?
No.
> Does ADFS have an auto-mount flag, which is the same as that of IDEFS?
Theo
Tony Moore
May 22, 2013, 7:44:01 AM5/22/13
to
On 22 May 2013, Theo Markettos <theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk>
wrote:
In that case, I'm at a loss to understand why a Seagate st340015a hard
drive, formatted for ADFS by HForm 2.59, should be 'seen' at boot, when
connected to my Unipod.
It's also possible to configure the machine to boot from this drive.
Tony
wrote:
drive, formatted for ADFS by HForm 2.59, should be 'seen' at boot, when
connected to my Unipod.
It's also possible to configure the machine to boot from this drive.
Tony
Bryn Evans
May 22, 2013, 11:43:25 AM5/22/13
to
In a mad moment - Tony Moore mumbled :
I believe that *con. boot applies to the way the computer works
as does *con. noboot (which will override any Boot on the disc)
You still have to present a Bootable source, either by issuing
the *opt 4 2 command.
-- While you are switched to the appropriate filing system --
With the (Simtec) IDEFS system the !IdefsTools utility allows you
to select Bootable or not when you are setting up the partition(s).
*opt 4 2 will later change this, but if there are TWO or more Bootable
partitions only the first one will be acted on, assuming you don't get
an error (I don't remember)
--
|)����[
|)ryn [vans mail to - Bryn...@bryork.freeuk.com
as does *con. noboot (which will override any Boot on the disc)
You still have to present a Bootable source, either by issuing
the *opt 4 2 command.
-- While you are switched to the appropriate filing system --
With the (Simtec) IDEFS system the !IdefsTools utility allows you
to select Bootable or not when you are setting up the partition(s).
*opt 4 2 will later change this, but if there are TWO or more Bootable
partitions only the first one will be acted on, assuming you don't get
an error (I don't remember)
--
|)����[
|)ryn [vans mail to - Bryn...@bryork.freeuk.com
Jim Nagel
May 22, 2013, 3:23:05 PM5/22/13
to
Tony Moore wrote on 22 May:
I fiddled about with IDEtool. Found the drive (120G) was already
showing as auto-mount. So thought I would switch off auto-mount and
then back on again, hoping that would kick it into proper behaviour.
The instructions assured me that changing the auto-mount flag did not
constitute a "change" to the disc. Well, the first step was fine, but
after the second step I saw nothing but a blank 12G partition.
Dr Ruck to the rescue yet again. Asked me to send the report after
running Discknight, then told me what repair settings to use -- my
120G unpartitioned drive is back in action with all its data. AND now
when I plug it into Unipod, it not only auto-mounts but boots!
Surely there's a less dangerous method of achieving this! I wonder if
the auto-mount thing comes down to poking just one certain bit on the
disc somewhere. Maybe Simtec or STDevel will let me know, just to put
it on record.
Thanks to all who responded, and specially to Sir David de Discknight.
showing as auto-mount. So thought I would switch off auto-mount and
then back on again, hoping that would kick it into proper behaviour.
The instructions assured me that changing the auto-mount flag did not
constitute a "change" to the disc. Well, the first step was fine, but
after the second step I saw nothing but a blank 12G partition.
Dr Ruck to the rescue yet again. Asked me to send the report after
running Discknight, then told me what repair settings to use -- my
120G unpartitioned drive is back in action with all its data. AND now
when I plug it into Unipod, it not only auto-mounts but boots!
Surely there's a less dangerous method of achieving this! I wonder if
the auto-mount thing comes down to poking just one certain bit on the
disc somewhere. Maybe Simtec or STDevel will let me know, just to put
it on record.
Thanks to all who responded, and specially to Sir David de Discknight.
druck
May 22, 2013, 4:35:39 PM5/22/13
to
On 21/05/2013 23:40, Tony Moore wrote:
> From directory datestamps, it seems that the disc connected to my
> motherboard ADFS was formatted using HForm 2.56, whereas that connected
> to my Unipod IDEFS was formatted using HForm 2.59. Originally, both
> discs were DOS format.
>
> Since the disc connected to the Unipod is seen, by the IDEFS filer,
> presumably its auto-mount flag is set. However, I do not understand how
> this could have happened, since the disc was not formatted by IDETool.
HFORM may not have zero'd the flag which could have been set as a
> From directory datestamps, it seems that the disc connected to my
> motherboard ADFS was formatted using HForm 2.56, whereas that connected
> to my Unipod IDEFS was formatted using HForm 2.59. Originally, both
> discs were DOS format.
>
> Since the disc connected to the Unipod is seen, by the IDEFS filer,
> presumably its auto-mount flag is set. However, I do not understand how
> this could have happened, since the disc was not formatted by IDETool.
consequence of the DOS data originally on the disc.
> Does ADFS have an auto-mount flag, which is the same as that of IDEFS?
---druck
Bryn Evans
May 24, 2013, 3:36:56 PM5/24/13
to
In a mad moment - Bryn Evans mumbled :
Further to the above post -
I have just tested a Hard disc which is partitioned into four using
the Simtec IDEFS and if connected to the ADFS interface on my RiscPC
then Partition ONE is recognised, so long as you use the config
utility to set ONE IDE Hard disc.
I have just tested a Hard disc which is partitioned into four using
the Simtec IDEFS and if connected to the ADFS interface on my RiscPC
then Partition ONE is recognised, so long as you use the config
utility to set ONE IDE Hard disc.
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