Help with rights holders
ad...@acorncomputers.info
BBC MOS
BBC Basic
DFS
ADFS
Tried the usual suspects but have had no luck. Any help would be
appreciated :)
Thanks
Andy
Peter Naulls
Instead of yet another stab in the dark/guessy approach, why don't
you tell us exactly *who* you have approached and what the result
was, and why you weren't able to proceed. Also, those items
have many versions, some of which might have different ownership -
you'll need to be much more specific about what you're after.
As I've mentioned elsewhere, this will demonstrate you've actually
done some of your own homework, rather than just relying on
others to do stuff for you.
ad...@acorncomputers.info
Ah, hello Peter.
OK, the people that I have tried has been Broadcom (brought E-14) also
where Sophie Wilson works. No Answer.
Pace, had a lovely chat about RISC OS and who they sold that to.
However they are unsure as to who "owns" the rights to any of the
above.
I spoke to Prof. Steve Furber CBE however he is not sure but thought
Sophie might know.
I have left several messages for Sophie, Hermann and Chris. But have
not heard back.
I spoke to Richard Russell a while back and he doesn't hold any of the
rights to BBC MOS or Basic and can not help any further.
and there was another chap. Name escapes me at the minute. But he
couldn't help either.
I also spoke to Steve at ROOL, about the Basic in RISC OS. He says
Castle might be able to help although Jack seems to have disappeared.
Was this enough homework ;)
The versions of all the above are for the 8bit systems. Atom,
Electron, BBC B & Master.
They indeed have different version, but as I am trying to track them
all any help with any of them would be appreciated.
Peter Naulls
> The versions of all the above are for the 8bit systems. Atom,
> Electron, BBC B & Master.
> They indeed have different version, but as I am trying to track them
> all any help with any of them would be appreciated.
Right, then perhaps you should produce a precise list of what "versions
of all of the above are". If nothing else, this might be a useful
reference for other purposes.
ad...@acorncomputers.info
> of all of the above are". If nothing else, this might be a useful
> reference for other purposes.
Fair enough.
BBC MOS Version 0.10- 1.20 (Electron, BBC)
BBC MOS Version 1.20R2 (BBC B+)
BBC MOS Version 3-5 (BBC Master)
Atom Basic (Atom)
BBC Basic 1 (Early BBC Micros)
BBC Basic 2 (Electron and BBC B+)
BBC Basic 4 (BBC Master)
Hi Basic (BBC with second processor)
ADFS 1.11 - 1.53
DFS Acorn 0.9
1770 DFS
Watford DFS
I think that was all of them.
Mr John FO Evans
<2a205de7-2111-406f...@n7g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>,
ad...@acorncomputers.info wrote:
>> Right, then perhaps you should produce a precise list of what "versions
>> reference for other purposes.
Perhaps one could add the Challenger DFS. I only have 1.01 now but I think
there was a later one which, from memory, solved the file extension problems
of DFS. If anyone has a copy I would like to see it.
John
--
_ _________________________________________
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\_/| |_)| |(/_|_|_> / 'Internet for Everyone'
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Chris Evans
All the above belonged to Acorn Computers Ltd
If they weren't sold to Pace then they now belong MSDW Holdings who bought
Acorn
MSDW holdings I'm sure have no idea that they own it so won't want to sell
it as they would want to be sure.
If they thought they did own it, I suspect they would not consider a deal
that involves less than four noughts.
It is a pity that the rights to many pieces of software not just Acorn's are
now left in limbo.
Chris Evans
--
CJE Micro's / 4D 'RISC OS Specialists'
Telephone: 01903 523222 Fax: 01903 523679
ch...@cjemicros.co.uk http://www.cjemicros.co.uk/
78 Brighton Road, Worthing, West Sussex, BN11 2EN
The most beautiful thing anyone can wear, is a smile!
Chris Hughes
Chris Evans <ch...@cjemicros.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <2a205de7-2111-406f...@n7g2000yqb.googlegrou
> ps.com>,
> <URL:mailto:ad...@acorncomputers.info> wrote:
>>> Right, then perhaps you should produce a precise list of what "versions
>>> of all of the above are". �If nothing else, this might be a useful
>>> reference for other purposes.
>>
>> Fair enough.
>>
>> BBC MOS Version 0.10- 1.20 (Electron, BBC)
>> BBC MOS Version 1.20R2 (BBC B+)
>> BBC MOS Version 3-5 (BBC Master)
>>
>> Atom Basic (Atom)
>> BBC Basic 1 (Early BBC Micros)
>> BBC Basic 2 (Electron and BBC B+)
>> BBC Basic 4 (BBC Master)
>> Hi Basic (BBC with second processor)
>>
>> ADFS 1.11 - 1.53
>>
>> DFS Acorn 0.9
>> 1770 DFS
>> Watford DFS
>>
>> I think that was all of them.
> All the above belonged to Acorn Computers Ltd
Watford DFS did NOT belong to Acorn Computers Ltd. It belonged to
Watford Electronics - who have now gone.
Some of them belong (as in copyright) to certain people apparently.
Some things went to Element 14 (BroadCom) and might not have been sold
on to Pace. - this is where things became a mess in the rush to beat
the Tax deadlines, no one cared where everything went as long as Acorn
Computers was no more by a certain date to beat the tax liabilities.
Basically its a mess and probably always will be. No one can afford
the legal bill to sort it properly.
[snip]
> It is a pity that the rights to many pieces of software not just Acorn's are
> now left in limbo.
I would agree.
--
Chris Hughes
Andrew Hodgson
> If they weren't sold to Pace then they now belong MSDW Holdings who bought
> Acorn
>
> MSDW holdings I'm sure have no idea that they own it so won't want to sell
> it as they would want to be sure.
> If they thought they did own it, I suspect they would not consider a deal
> that involves less than four noughts.
Hadn't thought of MSDW. Spoke to them, I think it was June time about
Acornsoft, for a game I was looking at doing. They were very
unhelpful.
Might me worth having another go though.
Rob Kendrick
Andrew Hodgson <andyho...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Hadn't thought of MSDW. Spoke to them, I think it was June time about
> Acornsoft, for a game I was looking at doing. They were very
> unhelpful.
> Might me worth having another go though.
The bit of paperwork that describes what they have the rights to is
most likely not only too vague for them to be sure about, but also
hidden in a box in a filing cabinet in a basement toilet cubical with a
hand-scrawled sign on the door, saying "beware of the leopard".
Nobody you'll be able to contact at MSDW will be bothered enough to go
and look for it for you. Not unless you arrive in a flashy suit and a
suitcase of used 20s. Then they might look for it, but then refuse to
say either way, because everything's so vague.
B.
Andrew Hodgson
>
> Watford DFS did NOT belong to Acorn Computers Ltd. It belonged to
> Watford Electronics - who have now gone.
Surely the copyright is still owned by someone, even if it went to the
crown.
I would have thought copyright wouldn't end when the company did,
would it not be classed as an asset
and sold. Not sure on the details of Watford closing.
>
> Some of them belong (as in copyright) to certain people apparently.
>
> Some things went to Element 14 (BroadCom) and might not have been sold
> on to Pace. - this is where things became a mess in the rush to beat
> the Tax deadlines, no one cared where everything went as long as Acorn
> Computers was no more by a certain date to beat the tax liabilities.
I think Paul Middleton was saying something similar when they licensed
RISC OS
>
> Basically its a mess and probably always will be. No one can afford
> the legal bill to sort it properly.
>
So what stop people from using it anyway. If no one can be sure, how
can anyone defend it.
> [snip]
>
> > It is a pity that the rights to many pieces of software not just Acorn's are
> > now left in limbo.
>
> I would agree.
I third that.
My main interest, apart from the information for the site. Is the ADFS/
DFS, as I have a small project that could use it.
One of the other parties, is interested in Basic/MOS as they wanted to
create some sort of educational software.
Then there are several people in the 8bit community that would like to
do some add on things, but can not because of the mess.
Bryn Evans
>> DFS Acorn 0.9
>> 1770 DFS
>> Watford DFS
>>
>> I think that was all of them.
> All the above belonged to Acorn Computers Ltd
Watford Electronics ?? I don't think so!
--
|)����[
|)ryn [vans mail to - Bryn...@bryork.freeuk.com
Rob Kendrick
Andrew Hodgson <andyho...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> > Basically its a mess and probably always will be. No one can afford
> > the legal bill to sort it properly.
> >
> So what stop people from using it anyway. If no one can be sure, how
> can anyone defend it.
Principles? A sense of right and wrong? Caring? On the other side,
any business or enterprise that operates with the express purpose of
exploiting this IP is on astonishingly shaky ground, and the directors
of such may be held personally liable should any of the possible owners
highlight the infringement.
B.
Andrew Hodgson
>
> The bit of paperwork that describes what they have the rights to is
> most likely not only too vague for them to be sure about, but also
> hidden in a box in a filing cabinet in a basement toilet cubical with a
> hand-scrawled sign on the door, saying "beware of the leopard".
>
express route through the solar system ;)
> Nobody you'll be able to contact at MSDW will be bothered enough to go
> and look for it for you. Not unless you arrive in a flashy suit and a
> suitcase of used 20s. Then they might look for it, but then refuse to
> say either way, because everything's so vague.
>
Do they also give the 20s out as well.
So how does anyone know what belongs to them.
Andrew Hodgson
> > So what stop people from using it anyway. If no one can be sure, how
> > can anyone defend it.
>
> Principles? A sense of right and wrong? Caring? On the other side,
> any business or enterprise that operates with the express purpose of
> exploiting this IP is on astonishingly shaky ground, and the directors
> of such may be held personally liable should any of the possible owners
> highlight the infringement.
>
> B.
believe that several large companies could make such a mess.
Rob Kendrick
Andrew Hodgson <andyho...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> So how does anyone know what belongs to them.
They don't, and for the most part they don't care unless there's a
significant amount of cash involved. And for the items you're looking
for, there is no significant amount of cash involved. I'd be surprised
if anybody ever manages to sort the mess out, or legally redistributes
the IP.
A great benefit of open source, of course. None of these issues have
anywhere near the same effect.
B.
Rob Kendrick
Andrew Hodgson <andyho...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Sorry wasn't saying anyone should do that :) just find it hard to
> believe that several large companies could make such a mess.
You've just won csa.*'s naïvety award for 2010. Impressive, given it's
only Feburary :)
B.
Andrew Hodgson
> > Sorry wasn't saying anyone should do that :) just find it hard to
> > believe that several large companies could make such a mess.
>
> You've just won csa.*'s naïvety award for 2010. Impressive, given it's
> only Feburary :)
>
> B.
Wow, an award already.
I'd like to thank my agent, by family and friends for helping me win
this award... :)
Andrew Hodgson
MOS or BBC Basic. They only brought assets to do with the set top box
and multimedia terminal.
So that would suggest, despite previous theory, that it is with either
Broadcom (E-14) or MSDW. Bugger comes to mind. :)
Chris Evans
I couldn't have put it better myself.
Andrew: any time or money you have would be better spent elsewhere.
Chris Evans
I missed the watford item, which would now belong to the reciever or whoever
bought the assets. Again a forlourn hope in extracting rights, I'd say.
> Some of them belong (as in copyright) to certain people apparently.
>
> Some things went to Element 14 (BroadCom)
Element 14 Inc. were granted various rights to use, licence etc but
ownership remained with Acorn -> e14 ltd -> MSDW or Pace
> and might not have been sold
> on to Pace. - this is where things became a mess in the rush to beat
> the Tax deadlines, no one cared where everything went as long as Acorn
> Computers was no more by a certain date to beat the tax liabilities.
>
> Basically its a mess and probably always will be. No one can afford
> the legal bill to sort it properly.
I'm sure you'r correct
> [snip]
>
> > It is a pity that the rights to many pieces of software not just Acorn's are
> > now left in limbo.
>
> I would agree.
>
>
Chris Evans
Andrew Hodgson <URL:mailto:andyho...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> [snip]
> >
> > Watford DFS did NOT belong to Acorn Computers Ltd. It belonged to
> > Watford Electronics - who have now gone.
>
> Surely the copyright is still owned by someone, even if it went to the
> crown.
> I would have thought copyright wouldn't end when the company did,
> would it not be classed as an asset
> and sold. Not sure on the details of Watford closing.
> >
> > Some of them belong (as in copyright) to certain people apparently.
> >
> > Some things went to Element 14 (BroadCom) and might not have been sold
> > on to Pace. - this is where things became a mess in the rush to beat
> > the Tax deadlines, no one cared where everything went as long as Acorn
> > Computers was no more by a certain date to beat the tax liabilities.
>
> I think Paul Middleton was saying something similar when they licensed
> RISC OS
> >
> > Basically its a mess and probably always will be. No one can afford
> > the legal bill to sort it properly.
> >
> So what stop people from using it anyway. If no one can be sure, how
> can anyone defend it.
If something became a money spinner, they (MSDW Holdings) I'm sure would
take action. But money spinner in their eyes would have lots of noughts!
> > [snip]
> >
> > > It is a pity that the rights to many pieces of software not just Acorn's are
> > > now left in limbo.
> >
> > I would agree.
>
> I third that.
>
> My main interest, apart from the information for the site. Is the ADFS/
> DFS, as I have a small project that could use it.
> One of the other parties, is interested in Basic/MOS as they wanted to
> create some sort of educational software.
> Then there are several people in the 8bit community that would like to
> do some add on things, but can not because of the mess.
Chris Evans
Rob Kendrick
Stuart <Spa...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> If they can't prove they own it they would have a hard time in a
> court of law trying to sue you.
There's a big difference between not being bothered enough to find out
if they own something because some hobbyist has asked them, and finding
out if they own it so they can see if they can sue him back to the
stone age. And in any case, I suspect many companies involved in this
whole mess (although not any ones that'd identify themselves as RISC OS
companies) could quite easily keep a company tied up in legal limbo,
hemorrhaging resources as they secure injunctions while they try to
prove their ownership, simply on the basis that the organisation
they're suing has admitted they don't.
B.
Chris Evans
Everything that Acorn had that had not been sold to someone else.
Pace only bought RISC OS and related bits so all 8bit stuff will be with
MSDW (I'm sure I've said this before!)
Chris Evans
Not Broadcom (E-14 inc) . Explained previously.
As a director of RISCOS Ltd at the relevant time I know these as facts not
just conjecture.
Andrew Hodgson
>
> Not Broadcom (E-14 inc) . Explained previously.
>
> As a director of RISCOS Ltd at the relevant time I know these as facts not
> just conjecture.
>
> Chris Evans
Richard Russell that said he thought that the BBC Basic may have been
part of the Broadcom deal, so it could stay with Sophie.
Andrew Hodgson
> In article
> <b82d6a88-5874-42f8-9ede-fce5652e0...@23g2000yqy.googlegroups.com>,
> Andrew Hodgson <andyhodgso...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
> > So what stop people from using it anyway. If no one can be sure, how
> > can anyone defend it.
>
>
> If they don't know whether they own it or not then no-one is likely to
> notice if you do something with it. Ignorance is bliss.
>
> If they can't prove they own it they would have a hard time in a court of
> law trying to sue you.
>
>
> Stuart Winsor
Again, I wasn't suggesting any right minded company would do this. A
single person might get away with it, but you would have to ask
morally if it was right.
Peter Naulls
> Everything that Acorn had that had not been sold to someone else.
> Pace only bought RISC OS and related bits so all 8bit stuff will be with
> MSDW (I'm sure I've said this before!)
>
No dispute from me. But dealings of this sort making any
kind of progress don't really depend on what you know, but
who you know. That is, someone high up in the company taking
an interest in Acorn material, and being able to "clear the
air" legally and even more importantly, politically. Such
contacts are not impossible to come by, but they usually
happen by chance as a result of other dealings in the field.
I suspect that Andrew has so such contacts, or he would
not be posting here. Chris, OTOH might, being such,
an er, veteran of the industry, but obviously he's in the
best position to comment here.
Alternatively, waving a large amount of cash can clear
the air very quickly.
Paul Stewart
s.com>
Andrew Hodgson <andyho...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> So how does anyone know what belongs to them.
Wait for the lawsuit when you start to make megga bucks!
Regards
--
Paul Stewart - Winslow, Buckingham, England.
(msn:pauls...@phawfaux.co.uk)
Andrew Hodgson
I might know a couple of people that could help. Never thought of
asking them as I was under the impression that Pace had it.
Rob Kendrick
Paul Stewart <pauls...@phawfaux.co.uk> wrote:
> > So how does anyone know what belongs to them.
>
> Wait for the lawsuit when you start to make megga bucks!
Precisely.
B.
Richard Travers
Chris Evans <ch...@cjemicros.co.uk> wrote:
> If something became a money spinner, they (MSDW Holdings) I'm sure would
> take action. But money spinner in their eyes would have lots of noughts!
>
It might be worth checking out the law on this. I suspect that if MSDW are
approached about the rights and decline to act on the request, then they
would have great difficulty in claiming infringement at a later date -
provided the approach and response is fully documented, of course. With
rights come responsibilities!
Something similar applies to written material, though I can't for the moment
trace my reference for that.
Worth checking out.
R.
--
Richard Travers
rich...@uwclub.net
Aaron
wrote:
I don't normally follow these groups anymore. However someone pointed
this posting out to me. Once I had stopped laughing I thought I should
make an observation.
If Pace, as they have said, "..only brought assetts to do with the Set
Top
Box and Mutimedia terminal." then, it would be somewhat difficult for
them to have sold RISC OS (which they didn't own) to Castle Technology
Ltd
"lock stock and barell" (to quote Peter Wild).
No wonder Castle stopped trading and disapeared...
Aaron
Jim Lesurf
> > So what stop people from using it anyway. If no one can be sure, how
> > can anyone defend it.
> My thoughts exactly.
> If they don't know whether they own it or not then no-one is likely to
> notice if you do something with it. Ignorance is bliss.
> If they can't prove they own it they would have a hard time in a court
> of law trying to sue you.
IANAL However my impression is that if anyone *did* decide to take action
against you and make 'copyright' claims against you using the material
they'd have to deal with some additional points.
By contacting the companies well in advance and asking them if they owned
the copyright you can be said to have acted with due diligence and care.
If they failed to say when asked in advance that they *did* claim the
copyright then you could use that in court. Both to show you actively tried
to avoid any copyright breach, and that gave them a chance to know what you
planned and speak up in advance. Hence if they didn't give you a clear
reply at the time, any failure of diligence was theirs. You clearly wanted
to deal with the situation properly.
Copyright is based on the civil approach where they have to notify you or
take you to court in the event of a dispute - and then show that they have
been damaged. If you aren't making vast fortunes, given the above, I doubt
that they'd get much in the way of damages even if they *did* establish
clear ownership - which they could be said to have implicitly conceded was
doubtful by their previous failure to respond appropriately when you took
the care to *ask* them. Hence it might end up being a waste of time and
money on their part, and a bit of a 'punt' which risks showing they *don't*
own rights they might like to claim for other purposes at other times.
So even if they noticed and bothered, given the circumstances I'd suspect
they would either ignore it, or try to come to a simple agreement with you.
Then use that as 'evidence' that they had useful copyright for any future
uses of the works in question.
However I have no clue how reasonable or rational they are. Nor, indeed,
how rational a judge might be. 8-]
Slainte,
Jim
--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
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Rob Kendrick
I think you've jumped to the wrong conclusion, Aaron. Andrew is after
the BBC Micro-era software, which Pace would have had no interest in
and Castle already said they don't have. And they have nothing to do
with RISC OS.
B.
Chris Evans
Unfortunatly I don't think anyone from the Acorn/Community has any contacts
within MSDW they would have dealt only with a few directors of Acorn who were
business men not really enthusiastic RISC OS devotees.
> Alternatively, waving a large amount of cash can clear
> the air very quickly.
Chris Evans