Creative Zen 8GB
Andrew
I was told this allows direct access to the internal hard drive via
USB and it seems it does. Anybody here using one *with* RISC OS?
It's really surprising there aren't more reviews of audio equipment
for RISC OS. These are possibilities that are attractive for many
owners of RISC OS equipment.
Andrew
--
Rob Kendrick
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Creative-ZEN-8GB-MP3-Player/dp/B000V9IAYS/
ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1214140006&sr=8-1
>
> I was told this allows direct access to the internal hard drive via USB
> and it seems it does. Anybody here using one *with* RISC OS?
If it is meant to just come up as a removable hard disc, then it is
unlikely to work with RISC OS, as the way it is designed means it cannot
access FAT file systems over 2GB.
> It's really surprising there aren't more reviews of audio equipment for
> RISC OS. These are possibilities that are attractive for many owners of
> RISC OS equipment.
Start a web site of your own?
B.
John Williams (News)
<nn...@rjek.com> wrote:
> If it is meant to just come up as a removable hard disc, then it is
> unlikely to work with RISC OS, as the way it
RISC OS, that is; a limitation for image filing systems
> is designed means it cannot access FAT file systems over 2GB.
but which could be /read/ using ROFS, which can read them. Perhaps of some
potential use, but not total.
John
--
John Williams, Brittany, Northern France - no attachments to these addresses!
Non-RISC OS posters change user to johnrwilliams or put 'risc' in subject
for reliable contact! Who is John Williams? http://www.picindex.info/author/
Somewhere nice to stay in Brittany? http://petit.four.free.fr/visitors/locate
VinceH
John Williams (News) <UCE...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <Ltv7k.89494$1B6....@newsfe21.ams2>, Rob Kendrick
> <nn...@rjek.com> wrote:
[...]
> > it cannot access FAT file systems over 2GB.
> but which could be /read/ using ROFS, which can read them. Perhaps
> of some potential use, but not total.
For an MP3 player, I should think users would very definitely want to
be able to write to it - the whole point of connecting them to a
computer is to transfer MP3s onto it.
--
VinceH
druck
> I was told this allows direct access to the internal hard drive via
> USB and it seems it does. Anybody here using one *with* RISC OS?
I doubt it because RISC OS can only access a maximum of 2GB of directly
connected FAT filing system via DOSFS and Win95FS. There is some
experimental code to get round this, but as they are read only, not much
use to get media on to the thing, as opposed to off.
---druck
Andrew
druck <ne...@druck.freeuk.com> wrote:
I see. However, this works with SD cards which means it should be
fully usable to transfer say whole downloaded albums in one go
shouldn't it?
Andrew
--
John Williams (News)
Andrew <grou...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> I see. However, this works with SD cards which means it should be
> fully usable to transfer say whole downloaded albums in one go
> shouldn't it?
Not to the device. Writing will not work with devices over 2 GB.
Restrict your card to 2 GB - fine.
But only if it's recognised as a standard removable drive.
If it requires special Windows drivers - as the Zen devices I've seen do -
you're on a hiding to nothing. Or, more briefly, no chance.
So the 8 GB bit becomes irrelevant!
Simon Challands
Rob Kendrick <nn...@rjek.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 22 Jun 2008 14:16:49 +0100, Andrew wrote:
>> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Creative-ZEN-8GB-MP3-Player/dp/B000V9IAYS/
> ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1214140006&sr=8-1
>>
>> I was told this allows direct access to the internal hard drive via USB
>> and it seems it does. Anybody here using one *with* RISC OS?
> If it is meant to just come up as a removable hard disc, then it is
> unlikely to work with RISC OS, as the way it is designed means it cannot
> access FAT file systems over 2GB.
Also (not that it makes much difference, due to the 2GB limit) if it's
anything like the old Creative Zen player I've got I was told it *can*
be accessed via USB as a normal disc, but it turned out that that was
only the case if you stuck some bit of software on Windows that made
it look like it was a proper USB mass storage device, but in reality
wasn't.
--
Simon Challands
Andrew
"John Williams (News)" <UCE...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <c1af98b3...@no.reply>,
> Andrew <grou...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
>> I see. However, this works with SD cards which means it should be
>> fully usable to transfer say whole downloaded albums in one go
>> shouldn't it?
>
> Not to the device. Writing will not work with devices over 2 GB.
>
But most albums will easily fit within 2GB and an SD card will
transfer most of that. Once it's on the ZEN, fine, the RISC OS machine
has done the job as good as anything else whether it's downloaded or
MP3'd with MusicMan.
> Restrict your card to 2 GB - fine.
>
> But only if it's recognised as a standard removable drive.
>
> If it requires special Windows drivers - as the Zen devices I've seen do -
> you're on a hiding to nothing. Or, more briefly, no chance.
>
I was told it does access without software but it's worth re-checking.
> So the 8 GB bit becomes irrelevant!
>
Not at all if an SD card is used - the 8GB is storage capacity of the
Zen.
Andrew
--
John Williams (News)
Andrew <grou...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> > So the 8 GB bit becomes irrelevant!
> >
> Not at all if an SD card is used - the 8GB is storage capacity of the
> Zen.
Good luck, then. Report back!
Steve Fryatt
<b6979db3...@no.reply>:
> In message <4fb39b85...@tiscali.co.uk>
> "John Williams (News)" <UCE...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > Restrict your card to 2 GB - fine.
> >
> > But only if it's recognised as a standard removable drive.
> >
> > If it requires special Windows drivers - as the Zen devices I've seen
> > do - you're on a hiding to nothing. Or, more briefly, no chance.
> >
> I was told it does access without software but it's worth re-checking.
The zen devices I've seen use MTP: the MS Media Transfer Protocol. So no,
they don't /strictly/ require software (assuming Windows can talk MTP
natively, which is true if Media Player 10 is installed), but they don't
look like removable storage media that RISC OS will understand.
Some of MTP spec is publicly available (and used by Linux software to talk
to Zen devices), so a RISC OS port might be possible if anyone felt like
doing it.
--
Steve Fryatt - Leeds, England
davehigton
>
> > In message <4fb39b8592UCE...@tiscali.co.uk>
> > "John Williams (News)" <UCE...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > > Restrict your card to 2 GB - fine.
>
> > > But only if it's recognised as a standard removable drive.
>
> > > If it requires special Windows drivers - as the Zen devices I've seen
> > > do - you're on a hiding to nothing. Or, more briefly, no chance.
>
> > I was told it does access without software but it's worth re-checking.
>
> The zen devices I've seen use MTP: the MS Media Transfer Protocol. So no,
> they don't /strictly/ require software (assuming Windows can talk MTP
> natively, which is true if Media Player 10 is installed), but they don't
> look like removable storage media that RISC OS will understand.
>
> Some of MTP spec is publicly available (and used by Linux software to talk
> to Zen devices), so a RISC OS port might be possible if anyone felt like
> doing it.
Does anyone actually have a Creative Zen device? If so, what is the
output of *usbdevices (Simtec USB stack), or what does !USBInfo say
about the endpoints (Iyonix)?
Dave
Alan P Dawes
The ZEN V plus has an option in the extras menu to configure the size of a
"Removable disk" which can be read as a USB drive on a computer although
you can no longer use their proprietory "Creative Media Explorer" program
to transfer files.
Alan
--
alan....@argonet.co.uk
alan....@riscos.org
Using an Acorn RiscPC
Dave Higton
davehigton <daveh...@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
I've just bought a Creative Zen Stone 1 GB player, as I thought this
might be the cheapest way to investigate MTP. Guess what? It's a
mass storage device, 8-6-80.
However, the Iyonix won't read it, complaining of bad block size, so
I guess it's going to be a 2048 byte (or bigger) block size.
More experiments...
Dave
David
> Does anyone actually have a Creative Zen device? If so, what is the
> output of *usbdevices (Simtec USB stack), or what does !USBInfo say
> about the endpoints (Iyonix)?
> Dave
On the Iyonix with Zen Stone Plus 2Gb device: endpoints=2 Ifs=1
class: 8_6_80
Incidentally this device recharges on the Iyonix but complains about
bad block size and you can't use it a s a filing system device.
--
Dave Wisnia, Leeds, UK
davehigton
Same findings as me.
I'm working on being able to access it as a filing system device :-)
Dave
Andrew
ps.com>
davehigton <daveh...@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
>> Some of MTP spec is publicly available (and used by Linux software to talk
>> to Zen devices), so a RISC OS port might be possible if anyone felt like
>> doing it.
>
> Does anyone actually have a Creative Zen device? If so, what is the
> output of *usbdevices (Simtec USB stack), or what does !USBInfo say
> about the endpoints (Iyonix)?
>
Endpoints 2 for Zen Nano Plus.
Andrew
--
Andrew
Steve Fryatt <ne...@stevefryatt.org.uk> wrote:
>> I was told it does access without software but it's worth re-checking.
>
> The zen devices I've seen use MTP: the MS Media Transfer Protocol. So no,
> they don't /strictly/ require software (assuming Windows can talk MTP
> natively, which is true if Media Player 10 is installed), but they don't
> look like removable storage media that RISC OS will understand.
>
> Some of MTP spec is publicly available (and used by Linux software to talk
> to Zen devices), so a RISC OS port might be possible if anyone felt like
> doing it.
>
The SD card for this model however should make it usable. I saw a 4GB
one on Saturday on the high street but didn't get it.
Andrew
--
Dave Higton
grou...@googlemail.com (Andrew) wrote:
Does it appear as a Mass Storage Device (8-6-80)?
Dave
John Williams (News)
Andrew <grou...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> The SD card for this model however should make it usable. I saw a 4GB
> one on Saturday on the high street but didn't get it.
... because you can't write to an image filing system greater than 2GB.
Andrew
"John Williams (News)" <UCE...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <d43f28b7...@no.reply>,
> Andrew <grou...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
>> The SD card for this model however should make it usable. I saw a 4GB
>> one on Saturday on the high street but didn't get it.
>
> ... because you can't write to an image filing system greater than 2GB.
>
No I was still weighing it up and as I said earlier the 2GB doesn't
apply if you're just transferring files to the player. The limit is
for the card not the player. In any case, it's £70 for something that
I probably have little use for outside of the MP3s and for that I've
order something for around £15 from Amazon. It takes an SD card as
well and should hopefully do more than the Creative Zen I bought for
move a couple of years ago.
Andrew
--
Dave Higton
grou...@googlemail.com (Andrew) wrote:
Can I re-phrase my question of a few days ago, please:
Does anyone have a Creative Zen player that /does/ /not/ appear
to RISC OS as a Mass Storage Device; or one that id /definitely/
known to implement Media Transfer Protocol?
In case it helps (and in case you didn't know already!), here
are some tests you can do to determine the answer.
On an Iyonix (maybe also on a RISC PC with Castle USB podule)
------------
Plug it in via USB directly to the Iyonix. If a "Zip drive"
icon appears on the icon bar, it definitely uses the Mass Storage
protocol. Otherwise, use the !USBinfo application, and open up
the "USB status - Full info" window. Double-click on the icon
of the appropriate device, and look for the Class, SubClass and
Protocol entries. If they are Class 8 Mass Storage Subclass
6 SCSI and Protocol 80 Bulk (Zip), then it's a Mass Storage
device, otherwise it's probably Media Transfer Protocol.
On a RISC PC with Unipod or Simtec USB podule
---------------------------------------------
Open up a command window (Control-F12) and type "usbdevices".
There will be quite a lot of lines, but the block for the
Creative Zen device should be identifiable, and within it the
lines for Class, Subclass and Protocol for the interface.
I hope that's enough...
Why do I want this information? I'll leave you to guess...
Dave
John Williams (News)
Andrew <grou...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> No I was still weighing it up and as I said earlier the 2GB doesn't
> apply if you're just transferring files to the player.
Pray when does it apply then?
Chris Johnson
John Williams (News) <UCE...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
> > No I was still weighing it up and as I said earlier the 2GB doesn't
> > apply if you're just transferring files to the player.
> Pray when does it apply then?
Loose English? I presume he means you could transfer up to 2 GB from
card to player, and then add some more from the same/different card.
Repeat as required to get a full 8 GB onto the player.
--
Chris Johnson
Andrew
"John Williams (News)" <UCE...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <a140aab7...@no.reply>,
> Andrew <grou...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
>> No I was still weighing it up and as I said earlier the 2GB doesn't
>> apply if you're just transferring files to the player.
>
> Pray when does it apply then?
>
If I understand rightly, when trying to transfer over 2GB of files in
a single go. If you're just putting them on the player then it seems
logical that the storage capacity of the player would be the upper
limit.
Andrew
--
Andrew
Dave Higton <daveh...@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
>> > > Some of MTP spec is publicly available (and used by Linux software to
>> > > talk to Zen devices), so a RISC OS port might be possible if anyone
>> > > felt like doing it.
>> >
>> > Does anyone actually have a Creative Zen device? If so, what is the
>> > output of *usbdevices (Simtec USB stack), or what does !USBInfo say about
>> > the endpoints (Iyonix)?
>> >
>> Endpoints 2 for Zen Nano Plus.
>
> Does it appear as a Mass Storage Device (8-6-80)?
>
Yes.
Andrew
--
Andrew
grou...@googlemail.com (Andrew) wrote:
Well the Techmaxx took about 1 day to arrive, seems to work fine with
a 2GB SD card:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000OP5C7W
Cost a fraction of the Creative. Victory no.1 today for the Iyonix I'd
say!
Andrew
--
Simon Challands
Dave Higton <daveh...@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
> Can I re-phrase my question of a few days ago, please:
> Does anyone have a Creative Zen player that /does/ /not/ appear
> to RISC OS as a Mass Storage Device; or one that id /definitely/
> known to implement Media Transfer Protocol?
Creative Zen Touch (a bit old now): Class 255, SubClass 0, Protocol 0.
So it definitely does not appear to be a Mass Storage Device, in
contradiction to what I was told by the clueless sales monkey (i.e. it
looks a bit like one on Windows, with the appropriate driver).
--
Simon Challands
Steve Fryatt
<d31719ba...@helvellyn.plus.com>:
> In message <3492b0b74f...@dsl.pipex.com>
> Dave Higton <daveh...@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
>
> > Can I re-phrase my question of a few days ago, please:
>
> > Does anyone have a Creative Zen player that /does/ /not/ appear to
> > RISC OS as a Mass Storage Device; or one that id /definitely/ known to
> > implement Media Transfer Protocol?
>
> Creative Zen Touch (a bit old now): Class 255, SubClass 0, Protocol 0.
> So it definitely does not appear to be a Mass Storage Device,
Ditto the Zen Vision M, IIRC.
Dave Higton
Steve Fryatt <ne...@stevefryatt.org.uk> wrote:
Thanks, Steve and Simon.
In summary, it doesn't look like there's a problem to be solved.
Hardly anybody has one that requires MTP. I get the impression
that Creative have abandoned MTP in favour of Mass Storage. I
bought a Zen Stone 1 GB, expecting (on the strength of Wikipedia's
entry) that it would implement MTP, but instead it's Mass Storage.
I have since appropriately amended the Wikipedia entry for MTP. I
shan't be doing any further work on MTP.
Dave