Risc PC keyboard to USB

[John Rickman]

I would like to use a Acorn RISC PC keyboard with a Raspberry pi but have
had no success so far.

Neither the StarTech PS/2 to USB adapter or the KVM that I bought works.
does not work. Plugging in via the StarTech adapter causes the lock
lights to flash but the keyboard is dead.
The spec for the adapter says it is meant for keyboards that were
originally shipped with a PS/2-USB converter. This obviously was not the
case for RISC PC keyboards. It suggests an alternative adapter but I am
reluctant to keep on buying adapters on the off-chance.

Is there anyone here that is using a RISC PC keyboard on a modern machine
who can help?

John

--
John Rickman

[charles]

In article <29d7c31...@rickman.argonet.co.uk>,

Why not just buy a USB keyboard? They aren't expensive,

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4té
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

[Theo]

charles <cha...@candehope.me.uk> wrote:
> In article <29d7c31...@rickman.argonet.co.uk>,
> John Rickman <ric...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> > I would like to use a Acorn RISC PC keyboard with a Raspberry pi but have
> > had no success so far.
>
> > Neither the StarTech PS/2 to USB adapter or the KVM that I bought works.
> > does not work. Plugging in via the StarTech adapter causes the lock
> > lights to flash but the keyboard is dead.
> > The spec for the adapter says it is meant for keyboards that were
> > originally shipped with a PS/2-USB converter. This obviously was not the
> > case for RISC PC keyboards. It suggests an alternative adapter but I am
> > reluctant to keep on buying adapters on the off-chance.

For those the adapter just flips the keyboard into USB mode, which assumes
the keyboard supports USB mode. The Risc PC keyboard doesn't. That
typically includes the straight-through adapters which are green (for mice)
or blue (for keyboards) - they are just a passive mode-flipper. Here we
need active protocol conversion.

> > Is there anyone here that is using a RISC PC keyboard on a modern machine
> > who can help?

I have a grey 'cube' style adapter - single PS/2 socket on one face, USB
male on the opposite face. That came from CPC about 10 years ago - they
don't stock it any more. Ah, here we are, the bottom one here:

https://www.fruitycables.co.uk/collections/usb-ps2

I tried one of the top design (grey box with mouse, keyboard and USB cables
coming out, usually pictured in an S shape) I found worked, but they were
only designed for US keyboards so keys like \| and ¬` didn't work. It's
possible some of those have different electronics in them that do a better
job.

> Why not just buy a USB keyboard? They aren't expensive,

The Risc PC keyboard is actually a decent quality keyboard. Not a full
mechanical keyboard (I think it's still membrane), but better than a lot of
cheap keyboards. It's nicer to type on than a lot of 'free' keyboards that
come with desktop PCs these days. Although it predates Windows keys, which
limits it somewhat (why I stopped using mine regularly).

Theo

[Russell Hafter News]

In article <0zx*Yp...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>,

Theo <theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

> The Risc PC keyboard is actually a decent quality
> keyboard.

Certainly is!

All the keyboards I have are PS2 ones, and yes, the "free"
ones are not very nice at all.

I actually prefer the HP keyboard (not particularly cheap!)
I am using to the RPC ones, primarily because the RPC ones I
have are quite noisy, plus I do need a proper windows key
from time to time.

--
Russell
Russell Hafter
E-mail to russell at russellhafter dot me dot uk
Need a hotel? <http://www.hrs.com/?client=en__blue&customerId=416873103>
Friendly web hosting <https://www.xencentrichosting.uk/billing/aff.php?aff=7>

[Harriet Bazley]

On 3 Aug 2022 as I do recall,
Russell Hafter News wrote:


[snip]

> I actually prefer the HP keyboard (not particularly cheap!)
> I am using to the RPC ones, primarily because the RPC ones I
> have are quite noisy, plus I do need a proper windows key
> from time to time.
>

What do windows keys do? I always assumed they were completely
useless if you didn't have Windows.

(I just tried pressing the one that is taking up space on this keyboard,
and predictably nothing happened.)

--
Harriet Bazley == Loyaulte me lie ==

He who hesitates is sometimes saved.

[John Rickman]

In message <0zx*Yp...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>

Theo <theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

>>> Is there anyone here that is using a RISC PC keyboard on a modern machine
>>> who can help?

> I have a grey 'cube' style adapter - single PS/2 socket on one face, USB
> male on the opposite face. That came from CPC about 10 years ago - they
> don't stock it any more. Ah, here we are, the bottom one here:

> https://www.fruitycables.co.uk/collections/usb-ps2

> I tried one of the top design (grey box with mouse, keyboard and USB cables
> coming out, usually pictured in an S shape) I found worked, but they were

> only designed for US keyboards so keys like \| and 柄 didn't work. It's

> possible some of those have different electronics in them that do a better
> job.

Thanks Theo - that is the sort of information I was looking for. I have
ordered one of the dual keyboard mouse type from Amazon and will take a
chance on the non-working keys.
The reason for not going with fruitycables was the postal charges:-10
pounds for slow delivery and 35 pounds for next day delivery. Amazon was
free next day delivery.

John


--
John Rickman

[M Harding]

In article <366f34125...@bazleyfamily.co.uk>,

Harriet Bazley <har...@bazleyfamily.co.uk> wrote:
> On 3 Aug 2022 as I do recall,
> Russell Hafter News wrote:

> [snip]

> > I actually prefer the HP keyboard (not particularly cheap!)
> > I am using to the RPC ones, primarily because the RPC ones I
> > have are quite noisy, plus I do need a proper windows key
> > from time to time.
> >
> What do windows keys do? I always assumed they were completely
> useless if you didn't have Windows.

They infuriate scammers who want you to 'Hold down the Windows key and
press R' (or whatever allows them access). 'Nothing happens,' you
disingenuously say. Then you hold them up from scamming others until
they realise you're not using Windows or you've wasted enough time.

Windows keys don't seem to have any effect in VRPC either.

Mind you I haven't encountered this scam for some time. Perhaps
they've heard of Linux?

Michael Harding

[John Williams (News)]

In article <366f34125...@bazleyfamily.co.uk>,
Harriet Bazley <har...@bazleyfamily.co.uk> wrote:

> What do windows keys do? I always assumed they were completely
> useless if you didn't have Windows.

They can be programmed to do whatever you want using a suitable utility or
directly editing your PreDesktop file alongside your PreDesk and Tasks
directories.

It's under "RISCOS KbdSetup 0.18 Options"; left one is Key$Red

John

[charles]

In article <366f34125...@bazleyfamily.co.uk>,
Harriet Bazley <har...@bazleyfamily.co.uk> wrote:

> On 3 Aug 2022 as I do recall,
> Russell Hafter News wrote:


> [snip]


> > I actually prefer the HP keyboard (not particularly cheap!)
> > I am using to the RPC ones, primarily because the RPC ones I
> > have are quite noisy, plus I do need a proper windows key
> > from time to time.
> >
> What do windows keys do? I always assumed they were completely
> useless if you didn't have Windows.

> (I just tried pressing the one that is taking up space on this keyboard,
> and predictably nothing happened.)

The lack of one is here to confuse telephone callers (often calling from
Microsft [so they say]) who "want to help you with your computer problems".
They seem to want you to press the Windows key and some other key at the
same time. They can't understand that my Elesar keyboard doesn't have a
Windows key.

[Theo]

John Rickman <ric...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> Thanks Theo - that is the sort of information I was looking for. I have
> ordered one of the dual keyboard mouse type from Amazon and will take a
> chance on the non-working keys.
> The reason for not going with fruitycables was the postal charges:-10
> pounds for slow delivery and 35 pounds for next day delivery. Amazon was
> free next day delivery.

After posting I came across another page that suggests the 'blue cube' is a
popular recommendation, and also adapters with the same Cypress chip:
https://deskthority.net/wiki/Converter

I suspect your dual keyboard mouse type will have an unlabelled 'bump' chip
(bare chip under epoxy) so it'll be pot luck as to what you get. Maybe
things have improved over the years. But hopefully straightforward to
return to Amazon if it doesn't work out.

If it doesn't, it's worth digging around the 'mechanical keyboard' community
(eg deskthority, reddit) since they have the same problem about connecting
old IBM Model M and similar keyboards to modern machines, and maybe they
have newer recommendations.

Theo

[Steve Fryatt]

On 3 Aug, "John Williams (News)" wrote in message
<62eaa053$0$18744$426a...@news.free.fr>:

> In article <366f34125...@bazleyfamily.co.uk>,
> Harriet Bazley <har...@bazleyfamily.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > What do windows keys do? I always assumed they were completely useless
> > if you didn't have Windows.
>
> They can be programmed to do whatever you want using a suitable utility or
> directly editing your PreDesktop file

Or just using the Keyboard bit of Configure (on a recent[1] OS), surely?

1. That's "recent" in the sense of "from the last 20 years". For RISC OS 4
users, I think someone wrote something called WindowsKeys to help.

https://www.stevefryatt.org.uk/risc-os/utils

--
Steve Fryatt - Leeds, England

http://www.stevefryatt.org.uk/

[Theo]

Harriet Bazley <har...@bazleyfamily.co.uk> wrote:
> On 3 Aug 2022 as I do recall,
> Russell Hafter News wrote:
>
>
> [snip]
>
>
> > I actually prefer the HP keyboard (not particularly cheap!)
> > I am using to the RPC ones, primarily because the RPC ones I
> > have are quite noisy, plus I do need a proper windows key
> > from time to time.
> >
> What do windows keys do? I always assumed they were completely
> useless if you didn't have Windows.

In Windows and many Linux desktop environments they're used as a search
function (ie press Windows and start typing the program you want - often
this is quicker than hunting through the list of apps available), and also
as desktop shortcut key (eg Win + left-cursor for move window to the left
half of the screen). They come through as another modifier key like
Ctrl/Alt/Shift, which means there's a whole new set of keystrokes Win+... that
give you more posisble keyboard shortcuts. Often Ctrl/Alt+... is used by the
current app, while Win+... is used by the desktop.

On Macs the Windows key is called the Command key, and it's used as the main
modifier key (ie Cmd-X for cut, Cmd-V for paste) rather than Ctrl.

Theo

[Harriet Bazley]

On 3 Aug 2022 as I do recall,

Theo wrote:

> Harriet Bazley <har...@bazleyfamily.co.uk> wrote:

[snip]

> > What do windows keys do? I always assumed they were completely
> > useless if you didn't have Windows.
>
> In Windows and many Linux desktop environments they're used as a
> search function (ie press Windows and start typing the program you
> want - often this is quicker than hunting through the list of apps
> available), and also as desktop shortcut key (eg Win + left-cursor for
> move window to the left half of the screen). They come through as
> another modifier key like Ctrl/Alt/Shift, which means there's a whole
> new set of keystrokes Win+... that give you more posisble keyboard
> shortcuts. Often Ctrl/Alt+... is used by the current app, while
> Win+... is used by the desktop.

Oh, right - an extra desktop-specific modifier key sounds quite handy,
avoiding issues where applications can 'steal' one another's shortcuts
when they listen out for background keypresses that apply even when they
don't have the input focus. (I spent a long time being very confused as
to why certain shortcuts listed in the manuals for Powerbase and
Rhapsody didn't work, for example, only to very eventually realise that
in one case it was because StrongED was intercepting Shift-Up arrow to
mean 'page between different documents in the current window list' -
under normal circumstances a very useful shortcut, but it happened to
override the combination of keys used in Rhapsody to jump and and down
the octave....)

>
> On Macs the Windows key is called the Command key, and it's used as
> the main modifier key (ie Cmd-X for cut, Cmd-V for paste) rather than
> Ctrl.
>

The Command key I've come across - the little Greek knot thing. :-)

--
Harriet Bazley == Loyaulte me lie ==

You cannot kill time without injuring eternity.

[John Williams (News)]

In article <mpro.rg1vvj00...@stevefryatt.org.uk>,

Steve Fryatt <ne...@stevefryatt.org.uk> wrote:

> Or just using the Keyboard bit of Configure (on a recent[1] OS), surely?

Thank you Steve - that was the bit I'd forgotten!

There are the left and right "flag" keys and the "menu" key, and they can
both use the Ctrl key as a modifier.

Pity that the two Alt keys and Shift weren't included as modifiers as well!

John

[M Harding]

In article <TaC*MJ...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>,

Theo <theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> Harriet Bazley <har...@bazleyfamily.co.uk> wrote:
> > On 3 Aug 2022 as I do recall,
> > Russell Hafter News wrote:
> >
> > [snip]
> >
> > > I actually prefer the HP keyboard (not particularly cheap!) I
> > > am using to the RPC ones, primarily because the RPC ones I have
> > > are quite noisy, plus I do need a proper windows key from time
> > > to time.

I decided to get a new USB keyboard for a new desktop computer and
ordered a HP one at PCWorld. I sent it back because it had a terrible
'touch' and reverted to my old HP USB keyboard, which was no longer
available to buy. (I bought the old one from CJE)

> > What do windows keys do? I always assumed they were completely
> > useless if you didn't have Windows.

> In Windows and many Linux desktop environments they're used as a
> search function (ie press Windows and start typing the program you
> want - often this is quicker than hunting through the list of apps
> available), and also as desktop shortcut key (eg Win + left-cursor
> for move window to the left half of the screen). They come through
> as another modifier key like Ctrl/Alt/Shift, which means there's a
> whole new set of keystrokes Win+... that give you more posisble
> keyboard shortcuts. Often Ctrl/Alt+... is used by the current app,
> while Win+... is used by the desktop.

Thank you for that useful insight, Theo.

Michael Harding

[Russell Hafter News]

In article <TaC*MJ...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, Theo
<theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

> Harriet Bazley <har...@bazleyfamily.co.uk> wrote:
> > On 3 Aug 2022 as I do recall, Russell Hafter News
> > wrote:

> > [snip]

> > > I actually prefer the HP keyboard (not particularly
> > > cheap!) I am using to the RPC ones, primarily because
> > > the RPC ones I have are quite noisy, plus I do need a
> > > proper windows key from time to time.

> > What do windows keys do? I always assumed they were
> > completely useless if you didn't have Windows.

> In Windows and many Linux desktop environments they're
> used as a search function (ie press Windows and start
> typing the program you want - often this is quicker than
> hunting through the list of apps available), and also as
> desktop shortcut key (eg Win + left-cursor for move
> window to the left half of the screen).

The most usual need I have is Win+L which is a very
convenient way of locking out the display under Windows.

I do a certain amount of work for a charity and while at the
(Windows) computer I have access to a large amount of
personal data.

Required practice is to use Win+L any time I leave the
computer. Password is required to get back to the desktop.

[Snip]

> On Macs the Windows key is called the Command key, and
> it's used as the main modifier key (ie Cmd-X for cut,
> Cmd-V for paste) rather than Ctrl.

Always nice to learn something new. I used Mac Classics at
work (school) before getting an A5000 as and upgrade from a
BBC.

[John Rickman]

In message <29d7c31...@rickman.argonet.co.uk>

John Rickman <ric...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:

> I would like to use a Acorn RISC PC keyboard with a Raspberry pi but have
> had no success so far.

Follow-up to thank anyone who helped solve the problem and to Theo in
particular.

I bought the device shown in this link:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Active-Adapter-Keyboard-Converter-keyboard/dp/B088N8DGDK

It has been tested on five PS2 keyboards:
Two Acorn RISC PC keyboards,
one Acorn Archimedes keyboard,
one from an old IBM PC,
and a Genius keyboard from an old windows machine

All keys and key combinations on the RISC PC keyboards worked 100%.
Ditto with the IBM and Genius including the "Windows" flag keys.

The exception was the Archimedes keyboard which did not work at all. I
don't think this is a problem with the adapter. It is most likely a bad
connection in the coiled keyboard cable as it has come out of its entry
grommet.

I have now ordered a second adapter same price 5.58 pounds inc delivery
(I have Amazon Prime)

John

--
John Rickman

[Theo]

John Rickman <ric...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> The exception was the Archimedes keyboard which did not work at all. I
> don't think this is a problem with the adapter. It is most likely a bad
> connection in the coiled keyboard cable as it has come out of its entry
> grommet.

Archimedes keyboards use their own (KATN) protocol, they don't use PS/2, so
it's not surprising it doesn't work.

The first Acorn with PS/2 keyboard support was the A4 - I don't remember
whether the A5000 and A4000 used PS/2 keyboards or Archimedes-compatible
ones (I think it was the latter).

We didn't get PS/2 mouse support until the A7000.

Theo

[Chris Evans (CJE/4D)]

In article <TaC*e4...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, Theo

The A5000 & A4000 use Archimedes type keyboards but with a longer cable as
the input is round the back on them.

The RiscPC was the first to use a PS/2 Keyboard

> We didn't get PS/2 mouse support until the A7000.

We stock a PS/2 to USB Converter/Adaptor that we have tested a RiscPC
keyboard with a Pi.

Be wary of the adaptors like the one on Amazon John linked to we had some
that looked almost identical but didn't work on a Pi.
We warranty ours to work.

Chris Evans

--

****** IGEPv5: The fastest RISC OS computer so far! *******
------------ http://www.cjemicros.co.uk/igepv5 ------------
CJE Micro's 'Raspberry Pi & RISC OS Specialists'
Tel: +44 (0)1903 523222
ch...@cjemicros.co.uk http://www.cjemicros.co.uk/
Unit 16 Arunside Ind. Est., Fort Road, Littlehampton, W.Sussex BN17 7QU

Don't let the urgent things in life, crowd out the important things!

[John Rickman]

In message <ant09143...@client.cjemicros.co.uk>

"Chris Evans (CJE/4D)" <ch...@cjemicros.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <TaC*e4...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, Theo
> <URL:mailto:theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>> John Rickman <ric...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
>>> The exception was the Archimedes keyboard which did not work at all. I
>>> don't think this is a problem with the adapter. It is most likely a bad
>>> connection in the coiled keyboard cable as it has come out of its entry
>>> grommet.
>>
>> Archimedes keyboards use their own (KATN) protocol, they don't use PS/2, so
>> it's not surprising it doesn't work.
>>
>> The first Acorn with PS/2 keyboard support was the A4 - I don't remember
>> whether the A5000 and A4000 used PS/2 keyboards or Archimedes-compatible
>> ones (I think it was the latter).

> The A5000 & A4000 use Archimedes type keyboards but with a longer cable as
> the input is round the back on them.

> The RiscPC was the first to use a PS/2 Keyboard

>> We didn't get PS/2 mouse support until the A7000.

> We stock a PS/2 to USB Converter/Adaptor that we have tested a RiscPC
> keyboard with a Pi.

> Be wary of the adaptors like the one on Amazon John linked to we had some
> that looked almost identical but didn't work on a Pi.
> We warranty ours to work.

Hi Chris - I tried your website first before going to Amazon but was
notable to find the adapter with the search arguments I tried.

John



--
John Rickman

[Jonathan Harston]

The ubiquity of USB keyboards means you can find some really
decent ones at sensible prices. I really like the Dell SK3205 and
the Lenovo SK8825. I've also got an IBM-badged Japanese
layout SK3205, which I use on my M128 - proper ECMA layout,
& on 6 and * next to SHIFT just as Glod intended! :).
All proper full-travel proper full-sized keys, proper clacky
keyboards. None of this super-thin crap I have to use on my work
laptop.

jgh

[Liam Proven]

On 03/08/2022 16:13, Harriet Bazley wrote:
> What do windows keys do? I always assumed they were completely
> useless if you didn't have Windows.

(Bit late, but hey...)

They were a standard part of Mac and Unix workstation keyboards before
the IBM PC, but IBM dropped them from its version. Microsoft brought
them back by re-branding them as "the Windows key".

They are called left and right Super key on non-Windows platforms.

On Apple macOS, they are called the "Command" key and are the main
modifier for actions: Cmd+X to cut, Cmd+V to paste, etc.

On Linux they do various things depending on distro. On GNOME and my
personal favourite Unity, Super on its own opens the global search
function, and Super+A searches for apps. Super plus the digits 0 through
to 9 open the zeroth to the ninth apps in the Unity dock, which is also
what it does on Windows if you have the Quick Launch toolbar showing --
but that's been hidden since Vista or so. (You can easily add it back on
anything before Win11, though.)

On Windows the right one opens a context menu for whatever is currently
selected or highlighted.

I use an 32 year old IBM keyboard, and it doesn't have them, but I remap
CapsLock to Super, because I find it quite a handy key.

--
Liam Proven ~ Prague, Czechia
lprov...@hotmail.com
(or liamproven on either AOL or Yahoo UK)