Peter Bondar Interview
Dave Pantling
Hello from Archive Magazine!
We recently put your questions to Peter Bondar, Director of ART. The results
of the interview are of a wider interest than just Archive subscribers, and
give a clear indication of the true nature of Acorn's new direction.
The Q & A can be found on our web site, at:
http://www.cybervillage.co.uk/acorn/archive/
If you want to find out about SkyNet, the Oracle deal, the StrongARM or the
future of RISC OS on ARM processors, you know where to look!
Enjoy!
Dave Pantling
Archive's Internet columnist and Webmaster.
--
Dave Pantling Webmaster of the Archive WWW site
mailto:pa...@argonet.co.uk http://www.cybervillage.co.uk/acorn/archive/
Archive's Internet Columnist Researcher: "The UK CompuServe Book"
Visit my personal web site: http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/parky/
Sveinung W. Tengelsen
pa...@argonet.co.uk (Dave Pantling) wrote:
> Hello from Archive Magazine!
>
> We recently put your questions to Peter Bondar, Director of ART. The results
> of the interview are of a wider interest than just Archive subscribers, and
> give a clear indication of the true nature of Acorn's new direction.
<snip>
Copied from the "Publishing" part of the interview;
> Publishing
> Q19. Do you plan to major in the publishing arena?
> A19. ART has decided not to major on the professional publishing arena.
> We will, of course, support all users that we have within this domain,
> but it is clear that the effort involved in this niche market, and the
> rewards gained, are insufficient, relative to the opportunities that now
> present us because of our new, more aggressive licensing strategy.
What exactly does this mean? Will none of the publishing-related parts
of RISC OS be updated significantly (like the FontManager) and will
nothing new be added (like colour correction)? Peter Bondar seems to
ignore the fact that *at least* 70% of all the *significant* RISC OS
s/w developments taking place now is for graphics/desktop design/DTP!
How *can* ART avoid to support Beebug, Clares, EFF, Sincronia and
Spacetech plus loads of other serious software houses though updating
RISC OS to accomodate the killer graphical applications these companies
develop? Outside the educational sector, different levels of DTP/graphics
has always accounted for a significant part of the RISC OS market.
Even Acorn realised this when they established the (now sadly defunct)
Publishing Division. Although the market Acorn CG seem to be putting
their efforts in (STB/NC-markets) probably *over time* will supplant
much of the paper-based publishing, that day is at least 3-8 years away.
We who has used Acorn machines in preference to Mac systems would really
appreciate if ART reconcidered the *certain* gains in putting a *little*
bit of effort into the publishing-relevant parts of RISC OS. We have.
How much effort would it for instance be to rewrite the fontmanager
so that it (optionally) avoids putting underlining through descenders,
and allow type to have variable levels of transparency?
Last, I realise it's my own fault not asking these Q's through Archive's
Q/A session, but I nuture the hope that they'll be answered here anyhow.
--
Regards,
Sveinung W. Tengelsen
a.k.a. Pixeleyes
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Dolphin Design | +47 22 42 97 58 - pixe...@sn.no | RISC OS *needs*
is ARM-powered | D.D.-Grensen 8 - 0159 Oslo - Norway | FP,VM,PM *now*.
Dick Smith
] How much effort would it for instance be to rewrite the fontmanager
] so that it (optionally) avoids putting underlining through descenders,
[Sigh] It's not a typewriter you know, where the only way of adding
emphasis was to underline. We now have far better ways of emphasising a
portion of text (size/weight of typeface, italicisation) and I think you'll
find that most typographically aware folk abandoned underlining PDQ for the
very reason you've given here; that the results are UGLY because underling
clashes with descenders.
I'd go as far as saying that there shouldn't be an underlining facility in
any 'professional' typographical tool---it shouldn't be necessary.
Regards,
Dick
--
=============================================================================
Dick Smith Acorn Risc PC di...@risctex.demon.co.uk
=============================================================================
Mike Williams
> In article <19960330....@risctex.demon.co.uk>,
> di...@risctex.demon.co.uk (Dick Smith) wrote:
>
> > In message <19960329....@hasle.oslonett.no> Sveinung W. Tengelsen wrote:
> >
> > ] How much effort would it for instance be to rewrite the fontmanager
> > ] so that it (optionally) avoids putting underlining through descenders,
> >
> > [Sigh] It's not a typewriter you know, where the only way of adding
> > emphasis was to underline. We now have far better ways of emphasising a
> > portion of text (size/weight of typeface, italicisation) and I think you'll
> > find that most typographically aware folk abandoned underlining PDQ for the
> > very reason you've given here; that the results are UGLY because underling
> > clashes with descenders. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> My point precisely. And I'm telling you it hasn't nescessarily got to
> be so.
>
> > I'd go as far as saying that there shouldn't be an underlining facility in
> > any 'professional' typographical tool---it shouldn't be necessary.
>
> That's your words. I'm all for wild typography (yeah...;) but quite a few
> of our conservative clients which actually pays us rather well for our work
> *likes* and *requires* underlining. We've come to the conclusion it's too
> much hassle convincing them of alternative solutions, and hence we have
> to use underlining in those jobs. Which is why I'd like said feature added
> to the Fontmanager. As to the "typographical un-professionality" of use of
> underlining, I believe there is some debate... ;)
>
While you're waiting for someone to add such a feature to Fontmanager, you
could use a font editor to create a copy of the font(s) you are interested
in but with the underlining built into each character, avoiding the
descenders. It's messy, because you then have to switch between, say,
trinity.meduim and trinity.medium.underlined instead of just using the
underline capability of your wordprocessor.
It also won't work with Postscript devices, but then again, would a
Fontmanager solution work with Postscript.
--
Mike Williams
__ __ _ _ ____ ____ __ ___ _ _ _ ____ __
| \/ | | |/ /__| | __| _/ _ \| \| | \/ / \/ |
| |\/| | | / _| | _| (_ ( ) | |\ /| |\/| |
|_| |_|_|_\_\___(@)____|__\___/|_|\_|/_/ |_| |_|
J J D and P-B
>
> In message <19960329....@hasle.oslonett.no> Sveinung W. Tengelsen wrote:
>
> ] How much effort would it for instance be to rewrite the fontmanager
> ] so that it (optionally) avoids putting underlining through descenders,
>
> [Sigh] It's not a typewriter you know, where the only way of adding
> emphasis was to underline. We now have far better ways of emphasising a
> portion of text (size/weight of typeface, italicisation) and I think you'll
> find that most typographically aware folk abandoned underlining PDQ for the
> very reason you've given here; that the results are UGLY because underling
> clashes with descenders.
>
> any 'professional' typographical tool---it shouldn't be necessary.
>
>
> Dick
> AND so say all of us.
JUSTIN >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Justin James Design a...@pixie.co.za
THERE IS LIFE AFTER DOS
Kai Andersen
>In article <19960330....@risctex.demon.co.uk>,
> di...@risctex.demon.co.uk (Dick Smith) wrote:
>
>> In message <19960329....@hasle.oslonett.no> Sveinung W. Tengelsen
>wrote:
>>
>> ] How much effort would it for instance be to rewrite the fontmanager
>> ] so that it (optionally) avoids putting underlining through descenders,
>>
>> [Sigh] It's not a typewriter you know, where the only way of adding
>> emphasis was to underline. We now have far better ways of emphasising a
>> portion of text (size/weight of typeface, italicisation) and I think you'll
>> find that most typographically aware folk abandoned underlining PDQ for the
>> very reason you've given here; that the results are UGLY because underling
>> clashes with descenders. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I agree with Dick Smith here.
>My point precisely. And I'm telling you it hasn't nescessarily got to
>be so.
No of course it hasn't, but just because something is possible is not
reason enough to do it, now is it. Consider backdrops behind text, that
is another issue. It comes about because certain 'designers' think their
designing/print layout is more important than the text or message, which
it isn't. DTP and print layout is about presenting the information in
an attractive way not about detracting from the text matter or even the
photographs. Because an effect is available doesn't exclude it from having
to justify its usage and indeed any other design element.
>> I'd go as far as saying that there shouldn't be an underlining facility in
>> any 'professional' typographical tool---it shouldn't be necessary.
I'd disagree with Dick Smith here, as it takes experience, training and
skill to know when to use something and also when not to. It is like
motorised zoom lenses on video cameras, some people think that because
they are there they must be used and used, they are very rarely used by
people with experience and training.
But I certainly wouldn't strait-jacket anyone, the problem is when I have
to pay for it and get no choice, Archimedes World is a prime example, its
design is just so amateurish, I've said as much to it's previous editor and
I've said so in these news groups and frankly it has got worse.
Sometimes I get the feeling that cost cutting means getting fresh faced
twenty something inexperienced designers with a very narrow and short term
experience of print layout.
A degree shouldn't mean that its holder does not have to prove themselves
in real terms. In fact my experience is that I've produced better quality
videos, and far better print layout in my mid 20's than most degree holding
luvies, the fact that I've been commissioned to produce work means that my
work has value. In fact working with what my former video tutor called the
arty farty types in video was so frustrating, while they want to complicate
matters and basically produce flashy trashy arty farty stuff, with dodgy
camera angles, shaky hand held stuff, badly framed amateur work. Working
with the arty farties in magazine work is the same too, and usually leads
to 'over design', I'm certainly no snob, or in any manner conservative but
I'd say I have a natural feel for composition, design and what works well.
This is a very interesting debate and goes to the heart of DTP, typography,
design, print layout and publishing. DTP by the masses is about the power
to publish without the responsibility to the reader that it brings with it.
If you look at the majority of people who have their hands on DTP
equipment in the UK anyway, I don't know about Norway or other parts of
the world, ten years ago no one had that kind of power or flexibility
on a desk never mind in an office. It's my opinion, having been trained on
DTP and print layout by a retired print worker, that these ex-printers from
the newspaper industry who have years in the trade have a feel and great
understanding of type, basic layout and that text is the most important
thing, frankly university design courses can not teach a fraction of what
a traditional printer knows in a 3 year or less general design course.
I wonder how many ex-printers are actually doing DTP on Acorn systems
or even Macs and PCs, I know more and more journalists are now doing
their own page layout for articles. It is all about getting the printed
word onto the page, graphics and pictures are aids to readability and
drawing the eye to a story or an article. They are *not* the main thing
unless it is a book of pictures or designs. The problem I believe is what
I'd call 'DTP ego' the best print layout is when you aren't aware of it.
The fact that I do notice it every time I open Archimedes World means that
it is obvious and obviously bad.
I don't buy the magazine to gaze at its design or layout. I buy it to read
it, as difficult as many of us know it can be. In printed material where the
text is the main item, the design is meant to support the text not detract
from it. It is actually harder to produce clear page layout that works than
it is to produce flash over designed pages. Archimedes World has got to be
the worst designed magazine I buy, in fact on one has ever, ever defended
its design layout.
Underlining:
Print production, wordprocessing and DTP all build on the basics of the
print industry, wordprocessing for the masses occurred in the 1980's,
and built on the typewriter, it added the flexibility of a restricted
amount of type faces, fonts and sizes. Underlining along with overtyping
was the only way a typewriter could add emphasise to text.
As my DTP tutor said, you don't need underlining on DTP because you can use
italic, bold, larger font sizes or indeed even a different typeface to
create emphasis. The trouble is that DTP was built on wordprocessing, it
added the all the tools of a professional printer, without the years of
experience. Many people who are now employed in DTP in the UK are
ex-university art students, many are journalists, many have a minimal
understanding of typography, the printed page and readablity of text.
The trend towards over fancy design on Apple Macs or what I call
'Over-design' is incredibilty immature, remember kerning. We Acorn DTPer
didn't have that facility until 1994 with IP, and frankly you only ever
saw it in Apple Mac designed magazines and newspapers, it looked so obvious
and amateurish, you now rarely see it these days as it is considered very
bad print layout design. Fancy backdrops behind text, oh, luvies please
I want to read the text dear, not wonder at your newly found trickery on
the Mac. It is the same on Mac and increasingly on PC multimedia packages
all gloss and very little content, call it 'MacBurger' DTP and DMP (Desktop
Multimedia Production).
Please take a look at Archimedes World in WHSmiths, it's not laid out on
Acorn, it is produced on Apple Mac. How many type faces just for headlines
on the news pages? In fact it is too many for me to be bothered counting,
how many colours (oooh, we've got colour!) five, yes five and there are
only three news pages. In a word Consistency is hasn't got any at all!
Four column on A4 very bad, so we have an average of 7 words to a line.
Look it couldn't be worser designed if I gave it to a chimp to do.
Still who am I say, I've only done two print layout and DTP courses and
got various specialist qualifications, the person producing this spagetti
loop of print layout has a job, I've not! So I guess if I could get paid
employment producing crap it would be better than being well trained and
qualified but unemployed.
>That's your words. I'm all for wild typography (yeah...;) but quite a few
>of our conservative clients which actually pays us rather well for our work
>*likes* and *requires* underlining. We've come to the conclusion it's too
'Wild typography' has its place in a fashion or design magazine that is
bought to look at. But 'Wild typography' or over design is not welcome in
a magazine meant to be read, if what is written is worth reading and it
should be, then fancy or manic over design is just bloody annoying and
a distraction. OK AW probably needs a distraction because there is very
little of actual content.
We are now just starting to see the next wave of this over design on Web
page design, the text again is the most important item on the page.
We have coloured text that can not be read on the some flashy and obscure
backdrop, good grief people stop trying so bloody hard to impress, if it
is worth reading people will make the effort without the distractions, but
if there are distractions it make even the most determined very annoyed.
I've got a copy of WIRED magazine and it is quite wild, but it is wild
within what I'd call a consistent manner and its design is well thought
out, it takes intelligence to design properly not just artistic license.
>much hassle convincing them of alternative solutions, and hence we have
>to use underlining in those jobs. Which is why I'd like said feature added
But if you are doing design for a client and have an understanding of
typography they should take your word that underlining in a printed
document is rubbish, the same as proper quotes shows an eye for design
and the little things. Remember work you design carries your reputation
with it, there is a magazine called SPY I helped put one full colour
edition together and I wasn't happy putting my name to it, OK it was
a course magazine, but still it went out across Merseyside, UK to the
kind of people I'd already done designs for.
>to the Fontmanager. As to the "typographical un-professionality" of use of
>underlining, I believe there is some debate... ;)
Indeed there is a debate, the problem with the debate, is those who say
underlining is valid are those people who are primarily computer based
DTPers, who have little understanding of print layout or typography.
It is like those people who want VM (virtual memory), the first time I
used VM was in the early 80's on a BBC micro using a floppy disc, the Macs
I did training on used it for photoshop and quark xpress and it was so
slow and really, really annoyed me, even PCs using it slow the system down.
Impression and ArtWorks weren't hard disc reliant, I didn't have to wait
minutes while waiting for the screen to redraw everytime I changed the
slightest thing.
Acorn RISCOS didn't need it because software was very compactly written
and efficent on memory requirements, I know it is needed for manipulation
of large bitmap graphic images larger than system memory, but they are
being handled by the packages themselves.
I'll use a comparison, it is like people who do video courses, many get
so bloody carried away with the mixing desk and novelties that frankly
their production and worthwhile content is put into the background, so
we see flashing colour and strobe effects, dodgy camera angles, it looks
flash but is inappropriate use of effects merely because they're available,
or as a band called themselves, I've got a fuzzbox and I'm gonna use it!
Content is more important than presentation, presentation should add to
and compliment the content not detract from or even undermine it.
What do people think of backdrops behind text then?
Well that's my final rant & rave for March'96 out of the way then!
BTW are Dick Smith or John Leeming connected with the print industry
in any way.
See ya'
Kai
--
_____________________________________________________________________
\ Kai Andersen - Email: a...@argonet.co.uk - Liverpool, UK, Europe /
\ DIGITAL OASIS: Acorn based online E-magazine, Co-ordinator /
\ NEXUS MULTIMEDIA: Photography, Video, DTP, Graphics, M2 etc. /
\_____________________________________________________________/
Sveinung W. Tengelsen
mi...@econym.demon.co.uk (Mike Williams) wrote:
> While you're waiting for someone to add such a feature to Fontmanager, you
> could use a font editor to create a copy of the font(s) you are interested
> in but with the underlining built into each character, avoiding the
> descenders. It's messy, because you then have to switch between, say,
> trinity.meduim and trinity.medium.underlined instead of just using the
> underline capability of your wordprocessor.
Well, you used the term "messy" to describe this technique, not me... ;)
> It also won't work with Postscript devices, but then again, would a
> Fontmanager solution work with Postscript.
It would render the solution useless if it didn't. Guess you could do
a quick search/replace-routine on gjpqy (+f for italics) and tick
underlining off each character as you swooped through the file, heh.
It's not as if this missing feature from the Fontmanager is the be-all
for Acorn-based desktop design, far from it - can anytime think of
a heap of more crucial issues. But it was singled out from my posting
which questioned the wisdom of P. Bondars desicion to lower ART's
priorities on publishing-related matters. Wonder if everyone agreed
to my points, since they haven't been commented? :)
Dick Smith
] I agree with Dick Smith here.
Wise chap.
] I'd disagree with Dick Smith here,
It couldn't last...
[Heaps snipped---phew!]
...but I'd agree that there are far too many examples of lurid (wild?)
typography around---give me cool, clean accuracy every time.
I'd also agree that there are far too many instances of amateurish
typography around as well, which isn't really surprising given the amazing
power at everyone's disposal nowadays, even with a windoze box. What is
depressing is that so few seem to stop and think that some skill might be
needed here, conveniently forgetting that the craft of typography has to be
learnt. Why more folk can't see the yawning gap between well printed
material and what's just dribbled out of their PC (no doubt after a
life-and-death struggle with Word for Windoze, et al.) is beyond me.
] BTW are Dick Smith or John Leeming connected with the print industry
] in any way.
I can't speak for John, but I teach maths for a living. My interest in
typography was kindled by exposure to TeX and LaTeX, which made me realize
just how crude the average WYSIWYG WP/DTP tools are. (Cue for an extension
of this debate here?)
Cheers,
Paul L. Allen
pixe...@hasle.oslonett.no (Sveinung W. Tengelsen) writes:
> In article <19960330....@risctex.demon.co.uk>,
> di...@risctex.demon.co.uk (Dick Smith) wrote:
>
> > [Sigh] It's not a typewriter you know, where the only way of adding
> > emphasis was to underline. We now have far better ways of emphasising a
> > portion of text (size/weight of typeface, italicisation) and I think you'll
> > find that most typographically aware folk abandoned underlining PDQ for the
> > very reason you've given here; that the results are UGLY because underling
> > clashes with descenders. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> My point precisely. And I'm telling you it hasn't nescessarily got to
> be so.
No, it doesn't have to be ugly, it just is. And unnecessary too.
> > I'd go as far as saying that there shouldn't be an underlining facility in
> > any 'professional' typographical tool---it shouldn't be necessary.
>
> That's your words. I'm all for wild typography (yeah...;) but quite a few
> of our conservative clients which actually pays us rather well for our work
> *likes* and *requires* underlining.
You will often find that clients have rather quaint notions of typography
based on the fact that they're used to typewriter output. Quite often,
if you tell them that typeset (rather than typewritten) material uses a
particular convention they just won't believe you until you grab a book and
shove it under their nose. Then they will grudgingly admit that they made a
mistake, and look rather puzzled (because they secretly believe you've
cheated and shown them a book that you created specially, but half-remember
seeing other books do it the same way).
> We've come to the conclusion it's too much hassle convincing them of
> alternative solutions,
This seems like a rather unprofessional attitude to me, to let them
order material which is substandard. But then I think it's a printer's
job to point out errors in spelling and grammar too, and even point out
bad or clumsy phrasing.
> and hence we have to use underlining in those jobs.
You don't have to. You could turn them down, saying that you would prefer
not to be responsible for producing material which will show them (and
indirectly, you) in a bad light.
> Which is why I'd like said feature added to the Fontmanager.
Which is exactly the wrong place to do it. If you really feel the need,
then copy the font and edit the characters to have underlines.
> As to the "typographical un-professionality" of use of underlining, I
> believe there is some debate... ;)
Not amongst *professional* typographers. Of course, there are those who buy
a DTP package and assume that it instantly gives them a full knowledge of
typography which is normally associated with many years' training, and some
of *them* may well think that underlining looks professional, but that's a
different matter.
--Paul
John Leeming
though-out and detailed article, wrote:
> Please take a look at Archimedes World in WHSmiths, it's not laid out on
> Acorn, it is produced on Apple Mac.
I would if I could. I can't remember the last time I saw a copy of any Acorn
magazine in any branch of WHSmiths.
> How many type faces just for headlines
> on the news pages? In fact it is too many for me to be bothered counting,
> how many colours (oooh, we've got colour!) five, yes five and there are
> only three news pages. In a word Consistency is hasn't got any at all!
> Four column on A4 very bad, so we have an average of 7 words to a line.
> Look it couldn't be worser designed if I gave it to a chimp to do.
Agreed. I do sometimes see it in my local library, but it's too irritatingly
designed to re read for any length of time. While I was in the library I had
a look at 'Modern Railways' magazine, which I always regarded as an example
of good, clean, simple yet attractive design. They seem to have a new
designer, and the result is AWFUL. Has the education of graphic design
students gone the same way as that in most other disciplines?
> BTW are Dick Smith or John Leeming connected with the print industry
> in any way.
Well, for a hobby John Leeming edits a small magazine for a special interest
group, but he has no formal training or connection with the print industry.
(changes to first person) I do read books/articles on the subject of print
design, and keep my eyes open for what others do. [For more details about
me, point your Web browser at http://www.mrc-bsu.cam.ac.uk/COS/leeming . The
initials COS must be in upper case (Grrrr - Unix!!!)]
The only Dick Smith I have heard of is an American cinema organist of some
notoriety.
--
John Leeming.
Alan Muscat
ST> be-all for Acorn-based desktop design, far from it - can anytime
ST> think of a heap of more crucial issues. But it was singled out from
ST> my posting which questioned the wisdom of P. Bondars desicion to
ST> lower ART's priorities on publishing-related matters. Wonder if
ST> everyone agreed to my points, since they haven't been commented? :
I have to admit I was depressed by the news. I was looking forward to
breaking into publishing as one of Kai's bad designers, but with this news,
I'm not sure it is any longer a good idea to use an Acorn as my publishing
tool; especially when this is on top of the demise of !Publisher. Still they
did say they weren't going to produce a portable; or was that an April fool?
Alan
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
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+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Daniel Pead
pixe...@hasle.oslonett.no (Sveinung W. Tengelsen) writes:
> Copied from the "Publishing" part of the interview;
>
> > Publishing
> > Q19. Do you plan to major in the publishing arena?
> > A19. ART has decided not to major on the professional publishing arena.
> > We will, of course, support all users that we have within this domain,
> > but it is clear that the effort involved in this niche market, and the
> > rewards gained, are insufficient, relative to the opportunities that now
> > present us because of our new, more aggressive licensing strategy.
>
> What exactly does this mean? Will none of the publishing-related parts
> of RISC OS be updated significantly (like the FontManager) and will
> nothing new be added (like colour correction)?
Of course, World Wide Web, interactive TV and all the other majors of the
Network Computer have nothing whatsoever to do with publishing :-)
The font manager, for example, is obviously crucial to WWW browsers and
probably the biggest advantage that Fresco et. al. have over Netscrape.
Things like PDF support and OS-level support for multiple graphics file
types are also relevant to this. And why not colour correction? Surely
advertisers on the net want their company logos to appear in their
correct, heavily market-researched and probably trademarked, colour
scheme?
I'd have thought that the best future for Acorn Publishing is to take a
leaf out of Xara's book (No, I don't mean sell out to Netscrape!) - and
focus on 'electronic' publishing. Acorn software already has a bit of a
head start here with its wide adoption of anti-aliassing and
error-diffused dithering technologies (ever notice how 256 colour modes
on a RISC-PC look almost as good as 32k colour modes under Windows?)
The *real* question for ART is - will the Network Computer-related
technologies be restricted to delivery systems, or will the authoring
maket also be targetted? In the latter case, Photodesk, Top Model (and
even Artworks which, at the end of the day, is still a lovely package)
etc. are all needed.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Daniel Pead | The Shell Centre for Maths. Education
Shell Centre for Maths Education | does not currently have any financial
Nottingham University | or other ties with Shell Oil.
Dick Smith
] The only Dick Smith I have heard of is an American cinema organist of some
] notoriety.
Phew! I'm mightily relieved that my particular notoriety hasn't spread as
far as your neck of the woods.
I wonder how many more threads this will wander off into.
Christopher Hughes
<mailto:musc...@digibank.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> ST> It's not as if this missing feature from the Fontmanager is the
> ST> be-all for Acorn-based desktop design, far from it - can anytime
> ST> think of a heap of more crucial issues. But it was singled out from
> ST> my posting which questioned the wisdom of P. Bondars desicion to
> ST> lower ART's priorities on publishing-related matters. Wonder if
> ST> everyone agreed to my points, since they haven't been commented? :
>
> I have to admit I was depressed by the news. I was looking forward to
> breaking into publishing as one of Kai's bad designers, but with this news,
> I'm not sure it is any longer a good idea to use an Acorn as my publishing
> tool; especially when this is on top of the demise of !Publisher. Still they
> did say they weren't going to produce a portable; or was that an April fool?
I can't see your logic on this. In case what demise of !Publisher, OK no
major releases but minor work is still being done, where economic. In ancase
there is EasiWriter Professional, soon Ovation Pro, TextEase, etc.. By the
way they will all be on show at the "Wakefield Acorn Spring Show, 19th May",
sorry could not resist it.
--
Chris Hughes, Wakefield Acorn Computer User Group
http://www.cybervillage.co.uk/acorn/wakefield/
Wakefield Acorn Spring Show - 19th May 1996
These are not necessarily the views of the User Group, but are mine.
Sveinung W. Tengelsen
musc...@digibank.demon.co.uk (Alan Muscat) wrote:
> ST> It's not as if this missing feature from the Fontmanager is the
> ST> be-all for Acorn-based desktop design, far from it - can anytime
> ST> think of a heap of more crucial issues. But it was singled out from
> ST> my posting which questioned the wisdom of P. Bondars desicion to
> ST> lower ART's priorities on publishing-related matters. Wonder if
> ST> everyone agreed to my points, since they haven't been commented? :
>
> I have to admit I was depressed by the news. I was looking forward to
> breaking into publishing as one of Kai's bad designers, but with this news,
> I'm not sure it is any longer a good idea to use an Acorn as my publishing
> tool; especially when this is on top of the demise of !Publisher. Still they
> did say they weren't going to produce a portable; or was that an April fool?
<WARNING: Article author is a bit high on the StrongARM-announcement>
Wurble. As long as ART takes care of the basics (Printerdrivers,
fontstuff, etc.) the 3rd-party developers will cope nicely.
According to Chris Cox, ART will do this job, they'll hopefully
release Postscript Lev.2 imagesetter PDF's for the most common
imagesetters soon. That's the most pressing job IMO.
Don't despair over Publisher's demise; it's insignificant. If you want
to stimulate the market, place advance orders on some of the promising
programs which are emerging - the developers still developing for RISC OS
(most of them still do, you know) deserves the encouragement that'll give
them. RISC OS isn't dead for publishing/graphics-purposes just because CC
flunks out!
There's still ample developer-resources left for making us *count*.
The Ovation Pro *beta* sway even seasoned Quark XPress-users.
How do you think they'll react to the final version?
I believe you'll be richly rewarded if you hold on tight to your
3-button mouse and excersise a *little* patience. :)
Mark Stephens
> In article <19960330....@risctex.demon.co.uk>,
> di...@risctex.demon.co.uk (Dick Smith) wrote:
>
> > I'd go as far as saying that there shouldn't be an underlining facility in
> > any 'professional' typographical tool---it shouldn't be necessary.
>
> That's your words. I'm all for wild typography (yeah...;) but quite a few
> of our conservative clients which actually pays us rather well for our work
> *likes* and *requires* underlining. We've come to the conclusion it's too
> much hassle convincing them of alternative solutions, and hence we have
> to use underlining in those jobs. Which is why I'd like said feature added
> to the Fontmanager. As to the "typographical un-professionality" of use of
> underlining, I believe there is some debate... ;)
Is someone paying you for this?
Yes. Then it is professional.
As for useful then consider.
1 Please not carefully the underlined portion of the text
2 Please note carefully the portion of the text in 14 point Bozo Ultra Heavy
Mark.
--
Mark Stephens Esq., Experimental Officer, Division of Electrical Engineering,
The Manchester School of Engineering, The University of Manchester,
Manchester UK M13 9PL. Tel. +44 161 275 4557 M.B.St...@manchester.ac.uk
See http://www.man.ac.uk/Engineering/School.html for some test WWW pages
David Watkins
John Leeming <jo...@leemingj.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <19960330....@risctex.demon.co.uk>, Dick Smith
><mailto:di...@risctex.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> I'd go as far as saying that there shouldn't be an underlining facility in
>> any 'professional' typographical tool---it shouldn't be necessary.
>>
>Agreed! Or, at least, it should be a facility only available with
>difficulty, so that those who know when to break the rules successfully can
>get access to it.
I don't agree. Whilst I would not choose underlining to highlight creative
text, I may need to refer to an underlined example in separate printed
document. Or the answer sheet of an 'underline all the verbs in the
following ...'. Or some A level maths equations.
Underlining is much quicker and more convenient than drawing lines or
importing drawfiles. If it didn't exist we'd have to invent it.
--
David Watkins
Editor, Acorn Archimedes World
Kai Andersen
> ST> It's not as if this missing feature from the Fontmanager is the
> ST> be-all for Acorn-based desktop design, far from it - can anytime
> ST> think of a heap of more crucial issues. But it was singled out from
> ST> my posting which questioned the wisdom of P. Bondars desicion to
> ST> lower ART's priorities on publishing-related matters. Wonder if
> ST> everyone agreed to my points, since they haven't been commented? :
>
>I have to admit I was depressed by the news. I was looking forward to
>breaking into publishing as one of Kai's bad designers, but with this news,
You've got more chance breaking into publishing as a 'bad designer'
than I've had being a trained and experienced designer, well here in
Liverpool anyway "a 'pool of talent", yeah talented, skilled but
unemployed. Excuse my poke at the surface gloss of NEW Liverpool. |-:
The worst Corporate web page I've seen is Liverpool City Council's,
it looks terrible and was put together by one of the Council's senior
officers. When will people in this country realise you get what you
pay for or not, as the case maybe. We've got too many jacks of all
trades and masters of none.
>I'm not sure it is any longer a good idea to use an Acorn as my publishing
>tool; especially when this is on top of the demise of !Publisher. Still they
Look it doesn't really matter what system you use for publishing and
design, Acorn systems are excellent for DTP, but if you have lots of
money to spend then buy a PowerMac and then budget the same amount of
money for the essential applications you'll need, you'll get little
support though, you only have to ask any Acorn based designer or DTPer
and they'll offer solutions, Apple Mac designers are paranoid about
their narrow knowledge, they don't let slip anything they think might
be useful to anyone else. You'll probably get a year out of a PowerMac
before Apple bring out a new system that only publishers with large
budgets can afford to upgrade to, but few else can.
I've had a RISC PC since August 1994 and it is great, absolutely great
for design, multimedia, web page creation and a great deal more.
PC? Well why not get a RISC PC and with a 586 PC card you then have the
advantage of two platforms, with AppleFS from Oregan you can both load
and save Mac TIFFs and JPEGs from floppy discs.
If you are serious about DTP and design then subscribe to Acorn Publisher
it is an excellent publication. Whatever you decide, try and specialise
in some kind of niche sector, otherwise the next person coming along will
merely undercut you.
>did say they weren't going to produce a portable; or was that an April fool?
They have two prototype portables, if you have a web browser you can
see both models and the specifications on the Digital Oasis (Rough Draft)
NewsFAX page:
http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/aok/news1/html
Go and have a look they are both pretty good, I just love the grey
'etcha-sketch' style NewsPAD.
The question is how much are they going to cost?
See ya'
Kai
--
Digital Oasis (Rough Draft) at, http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/aok
rob...@mail.netconnect.com.au
> In message <ant01192...@leemingj.demon.co.uk> John Leeming wrote:
>
> ] The only Dick Smith I have heard of is an American cinema organist of some
> ] notoriety.
>
> Phew! I'm mightily relieved that my particular notoriety hasn't spread as
> far as your neck of the woods.
>
> I wonder how many more threads this will wander off into.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Dick
>
'Dick Smith' is also the name of a highly successful electronic retail
stores in Australia. He has actually sold the company, though his name
remains, and he now is involved in Australian Geographic, as one of the
founders of a highly successful magazine.
--
Rob Ward <rob...@netconnect.com.au> Hi ! FreeMail !
Secondary School Teacher
Mt Helen, Ballarat, Victoria, Australia.
Sveinung W. Tengelsen
mbh...@meehpb01.ee.man.ac.uk (Mark Stephens) wrote:
> In article <19960331....@hasle.oslonett.no>, pixe...@hasle.oslonett.no (Sveinung W. Tengelsen) writes:
> > In article <19960330....@risctex.demon.co.uk>,
> > di...@risctex.demon.co.uk (Dick Smith) wrote:
> >
> > > In message <19960329....@hasle.oslonett.no> Sveinung W. Tengelsen wrote:
>
> > > I'd go as far as saying that there shouldn't be an underlining facility in
> > > any 'professional' typographical tool---it shouldn't be necessary.
> >
> > That's your words. I'm all for wild typography (yeah...;) but quite a few
> > of our conservative clients which actually pays us rather well for our work
> > *likes* and *requires* underlining. We've come to the conclusion it's too
> > much hassle convincing them of alternative solutions, and hence we have
> > to use underlining in those jobs. Which is why I'd like said feature added
> > to the Fontmanager. As to the "typographical un-professionality" of use of
> > underlining, I believe there is some debate... ;)
>
> Is someone paying you for this?
Sadly and tragically, no. ;)
> Yes. Then it is professional.
Well... presumably.
> As for useful then consider.
>
> 1 Please not carefully the underlined portion of the text
> 2 Please note carefully the portion of the text in 14 point Bozo Ultra Heavy
You're a bit unclear here, so I'll make my position clear once an for all
regarding the blasted underlining-issue.
1) I don't love underlining.
2) I don't even *sympathise* with underlining.
3) I wouldn't even begin to speculate about the mere possibility etc.
4) Some of our clients like underlining, so we use it for them - mainly
under (sub)headings. Never in bodytext. Bold/Italic is nice for that.
5) The RISC OS FontManager supports underlining.
6) As long as it does, it might as well make the best of it.
Aaargh. Why is it that some ppl in these groups attach themselves like
mindless limpets to uninteresting smelly topics while there's more
important issues to discuss?
Try this one on for size: ART appears wibbly regarding its' support of
the desktop design-part of their market which constitutes the majority
of the exo-educational users, I'm led to believe.
What are we, the users and developers, going to do about it?
Mark Stephens
> Aaargh. Why is it that some ppl in these groups attach themselves like
> mindless limpets to uninteresting smelly topics while there's more
> important issues to discuss?
I think I had better not comment on this uninteresting smelly topic :-)
> Try this one on for size: ART appears wibbly regarding its' support of
> the desktop design-part of their market which constitutes the majority
> of the exo-educational users, I'm led to believe.
> What are we, the users and developers, going to do about it?
ART seem to be solely an engineering design company having been divested
of their selling arm, Acorn Education, who have focused their marketing on
education while diversifying the product range they sell into this market.
Either ART need a new selling arm or a third party needs to step in to do this
job. If you strongly believe that ARTs products are the bees knees for a
particular vertical market such as DTP then you may believe that there is
money to be made out of setting up a company whose business is configuring
ARTs products and selling them on along with software, other hardware and
support services. Such value added resellers (VARs) exist in the DTP and
other markets such as CAD.
If you really want ART to support the DTP market then the best way to do
this is to help them make money at this part of the market by setting up
as a VAR and selling ART product based DTP systems.
There is a huge problem with this though.
In the Electronic CAD (and probably other CAD variants)
the VAR was once all powerful. If you wanted a high quality ECAD seat you
spent at least L50k and bought a workstation (Sun, HP, XXX)(company XXX is
a name I can't remember but is important) with the software pre installed
and everything working ready to go. One company (XXX) on finding its supplier
of CPUs (Fairchild) was being sold went and bought the CPU division of
the company to guarantee supplies of the Clipper CPU it valued so highly.
I mention this to point out how important the integration of hardware and
software was once.
All this is changing. Enter the commodity work station and the shrink
wrapped software vendor.
Currently (here at Manchester) we put professional quality ECAD tools in
front of students (Mentor Graphics) which runs on off the shelf HP
workstations. In the future we will be running the same software on high
end PCs, probably running Windows NT which will be significantly cheaper.
Company XXX dropped the Clipper CPU a few years ago and (IIRC) have
moved to multiprocessor Windows NT boxes.
If you want to sell into the ECAD market nowadays you should be looking
to support Windows NT and expect your software to be installed by the user.
The advantage for a VAR was that the customer was looking for a solution. They
didn't usually care about the hardware, only what the software could do.
The price of the whole package mattered not the individual components.
The customers generally did not now how much a workstation costed anyway
so the margin charged by the VAR was not immediately obvious.
Nowadays most people know that a PC can be bought for L1k to L2k.
Something based on a PC selling for L10k has an obviously big markup.
Customers also have legacy systems; software and hardware which is still
of value and the customer now expects to be able to integrate this with
anything new.
If you want to succeed as a VAR selling ARTs hardware then you must compete
on price with PCs and shrink wrapped software. On the face of it the ART
hardware offers no great competitive advantage here and you probably
will have very little time to convince anyone of this who is not an engineer.
The software available is also very limited in range and functionallity
and does not offer much scope for growth. This does not matter to the
hobbiest who is perhaps the ultimate vertical market but they don't
spend big books
What ART need is a new operating system for their hardware which will
encourage small and new software developers to write for the ART machines
rather than attempt to take on the giants. Such an operating system should
encourage the building of small software components that will work together.
Imagine in the future ...
For example take Icon Technologies structure based word processor, add in
Beebug Thesaurus and Formulix, and a spelling checker from another third
party, a drawing program from CC. Insert a table created by Eureka
and add a bit map from Paint, modify bit map with software from John Kortnik.
Export resultant document to Postscript using an Oak printer driver and
then as HTML using software supplied by Warm Silence.
Having got so far replace the Icon structure editor with a DTP package based
on frames as your main editing tool. Copy one of your pictures into a new
document, copy picture into another document: only one copy of this picture
should exist on the computer and it is only deleted when the last instance
of it is deleted.
Go back and recalculate table in Eureka, upgrade thesaurus with new one
marketed by a Norwegian software company.
All this works transparently without the user being allowed to get in underneath
to delete files that are referenced by documents.
(Yes the file system has to go!)
Send document to colleague who uses a compatible OS from a second source.
Is this what Copland will be like? Is this what OpenDoc promises?
I don't think ART or even ARM has the resources to make innovative
products and make them succeed, it took DEC to make the StrongArm, it may
be upto Texas Instruments to make a winner out of the Thumb. The Newspad looks
good but their are plenty of competitors such as Epson, Zenith, Grid,
Sharp, Apple. Risc OS is not the OS to make the Newspad a winner, maybe
Newton OS is a better candidate for it.
Only revolutionary products will do the job of creating success against the
bulk market.
So
Set yourself up as a VAR for ART products
Write a revolutionary new OS that will make computers well behaved.
Build components for this new OS.
Make alliances, ensure inter-operability.
Create new markets.
Easy once you know how.
All practical comments about cash flow, development costs, financial
reality; please be brief.
Dick Smith
] I don't agree. Whilst I would not choose underlining to highlight creative
] text, I may need to refer to an underlined example in separate printed
] document. Or the answer sheet of an 'underline all the verbs in the
] following ...'. Or some A level maths equations.
Speaking as a mathematics lecturer I can think of no circumstances at all in
which one would need to underline an equation, A-level or otherwise.
] Underlining is much quicker and more convenient than drawing lines or
] importing drawfiles. If it didn't exist we'd have to invent it.
Don't panic, let go! Life's fine in a non-underlining society!
Keith Murrall
<di...@risctex.demon.co.uk> writes
>In message <ant01192...@leemingj.demon.co.uk> John Leeming wrote:
>
>] The only Dick Smith I have heard of is an American cinema organist of some
>] notoriety.
Is Dick's middle name King? Wrote some super children's books - not
least the Sheep Pig, the basis for the recent film Babe. Keep up the
good work. ;>)
--
Keith Murrall
Turnpike evaluation. For information, see http://www.turnpike.com/
S Pampling
> In the Electronic CAD (and probably other CAD variants)
^^^
Wouldst care to tell, what a non electronic CAD is?
Last I knew it stood for Computer Aided Design, or something rather close.
^ ^ ^
--
steve.p...@argonet.co.uk
gbf6...@ibmmail.com
* Campaign for Real Ale, Warwickshire Area Organiser *
* Bar Manager, Coventry (CAMRA) Beer Festival (ex) *
* and seriously "knackered"... *
Dick Smith
] In article <19960402....@risctex.demon.co.uk>, Dick Smith
] <di...@risctex.demon.co.uk> writes
] >In message <ant01192...@leemingj.demon.co.uk> John Leeming wrote:
] >
] >] The only Dick Smith I have heard of is an American cinema organist of some
] >] notoriety.
]
] Is Dick's middle name King? Wrote some super children's books - not
] least the Sheep Pig, the basis for the recent film Babe. Keep up the
] good work. ;>)
Not guilty on either account; I'm not the said organist, nor do I write
children's books. Neither am I Dick Heckstall-Smith the famous jazz-rock
tenor saxophone player, although I used to be a professional jazz drummer
in the 60s and still play from time to time. Perhaps I should underline
that. Ah, the curse of being called Smith.
Paul L. Allen
David Watkins <da...@benowyn.zynet.co.uk> writes:
> In article <ant31074...@leemingj.demon.co.uk>,
> John Leeming <jo...@leemingj.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >In article <19960330....@risctex.demon.co.uk>, Dick Smith
> ><mailto:di...@risctex.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> >> I'd go as far as saying that there shouldn't be an underlining facility
> >> in any 'professional' typographical tool---it shouldn't be necessary.
>
> >Agreed! Or, at least, it should be a facility only available with
> >difficulty, so that those who know when to break the rules successfully can
> >get access to it.
>
> I don't agree. Whilst I would not choose underlining to highlight creative
> text, I may need to refer to an underlined example in separate printed
> document. Or the answer sheet of an 'underline all the verbs in the
> following ...'. Or some A level maths equations.
You can always find exceptional cases for reproducing any typographic
abomination, no matter how bad. One general-purpose case is a book about
typography where you give examples of what *not* to do. Like underlining,
or using several typefaces (mind you, this is only a bad thing in book
work where you want people to be able to read it - for advertising the
words are far less important). There are many other reasons for needing
typographic abominations, some less contrived but equally rare.
And there are also, as said above, cases where a genius can break the
rules successfully. Tsichold did a lot of that. Mind you, he recanted
most of it in his old age, and all those people who had adopted his
methods were left looking slightly silly, but that's another story.
That does not mean that there is a reason for making things like underlining
widely available, easy-to-use and accessible from the same menu as better
alternatives. Making underlining as accessible as italics or bold
encourages people who don't know any better to use it, especially if it's
part of the same menu that allows you to select italic and bold.
--Paul
Christopher Jarman
> In message <1B9MFGAq...@yatmanor.demon.co.uk> Keith Murrall wrote:
>
> ] In article <19960402....@risctex.demon.co.uk>, Dick Smith
> ] <di...@risctex.demon.co.uk> writes
> ] >In message <ant01192...@leemingj.demon.co.uk> John Leeming
> wrote:
> ] >
> ] >] The only Dick Smith I have heard of is an American cinema organist
> of some
> ] >] notoriety.
> ]
> ] Is Dick's middle name King? Wrote some super children's books - not
> ] least the Sheep Pig, the basis for the recent film Babe. Keep up the
> ] good work. ;>)
Surely you aren't the Hon Ricardo Smythe-Smythe who used to empty our
Elsan toilets at Jaywick Sands during the 1940's? If so, I am afraid I
cannot shake your hand Sir, as it often used to slip into the bucket.....
... Sweet anyone? Just a trifle.
--
Christopher Jarman - CLIPS ROUND THE YEAR - Tel/Fax 01962 862227
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Acorn RiscPC: Freelance writer - Graphics - Reviews
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.cybervillage.co.uk/folio/jarman
http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/quilljar
S Pampling
> In article <960403...@benowyn.zynet.co.uk>
> David Watkins <da...@benowyn.zynet.co.uk> writes:
>
> > In article <ant31074...@leemingj.demon.co.uk>,
> > John Leeming <jo...@leemingj.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> > >In article <19960330....@risctex.demon.co.uk>, Dick Smith
> > ><mailto:di...@risctex.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > I don't agree. Whilst I would not choose underlining to highlight
> creative
> > text, I may need to refer to an underlined example in separate printed
> > document. Or the answer sheet of an 'underline all the verbs in the
> > following ...'. Or some A level maths equations.
> You can always find exceptional cases for reproducing any typographic
> abomination, no matter how bad. One general-purpose case is a book
> about
> typography where you give examples of what *not* to do. Like
> underlining,
> or using several typefaces (mind you, this is only a bad thing in book
> work where you want people to be able to read it - for advertising the
> words are far less important). There are many other reasons for needing
> typographic abominations, some less contrived but equally rare.
I agree mostly, until I read a few books on the subject I was producing
stuff that looked naff but I couldn't quite figure out what detail it was
that did it. (It was a combination of things)
However I dont think the example quoted above is either an 'exceptional
case' or even valid, as worded I could underline the whole paragraph
refered to and still be right.
Besides what is being done there is a handwritten alteration and as anyone
whose read anything on the subject will know printers have used certain
*handwritten* marks for years to signify emboldening, italics etc
[snip a bit of history]
> That does not mean that there is a reason for making things like
> underlining
> widely available, easy-to-use and accessible from the same menu as
> better
> alternatives. Making underlining as accessible as italics or bold
> encourages people who don't know any better to use it, especially if
> it's
> part of the same menu that allows you to select italic and bold.
Quite. It justs leads down the rocky road to layouts like Arc. World ;-(
If anyone can think of a valid reason for using underlining please speak
up, so far the reasons given are not even print related (as above).
You are using DTP, not a typewriter, you have multiple indents, bold,
italic, and within reason (hopefully), multiple fonts/typefaces.
Why would you require an ugly feature like underlining?
Mike Bishop
In message <internews...@argonet.co.uk> S Pampling wrote:
> "Paul L. Allen" <p...@sktb.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > In article <960403...@benowyn.zynet.co.uk>
> > David Watkins <da...@benowyn.zynet.co.uk> writes:
[slicey slicey]
> > You can always find exceptional cases for reproducing any typographic
> > abomination, no matter how bad. One general-purpose case is a book
> > about
> > typography where you give examples of what *not* to do. Like
> > underlining,
> > or using several typefaces (mind you, this is only a bad thing in book
> > work where you want people to be able to read it - for advertising the
> > words are far less important). There are many other reasons for needing
> > typographic abominations, some less contrived but equally rare.
>
> I agree mostly, until I read a few books on the subject I was producing
> stuff that looked naff but I couldn't quite figure out what detail it was
> that did it. (It was a combination of things)
>
> However I dont think the example quoted above is either an 'exceptional
> case' or even valid, as worded I could underline the whole paragraph
> refered to and still be right.
>
> Besides what is being done there is a handwritten alteration and as anyone
> whose read anything on the subject will know printers have used certain
> *handwritten* marks for years to signify emboldening, italics etc
Strictly speaking the marking-up is done *by* copy editors *for*
typesetters/printers (the two beasts can be indistinguishable these days).
[slicey]
> > That does not mean that there is a reason for making things like
> > underlining
> > widely available, easy-to-use and accessible from the same menu as
> > better
> > alternatives. Making underlining as accessible as italics or bold
> > encourages people who don't know any better to use it, especially if
> > it's
> > part of the same menu that allows you to select italic and bold.
>
> Quite. It justs leads down the rocky road to layouts like Arc. World ;-(
>
> If anyone can think of a valid reason for using underlining please speak
> up, so far the reasons given are not even print related (as above).
> You are using DTP, not a typewriter, you have multiple indents, bold,
> italic, and within reason (hopefully), multiple fonts/typefaces.
> Why would you require an ugly feature like underlining?
Unfortunately, there *are* reasons (not necessarily good, but certainly
valid) for retaining underlining in computer typography. We can divide these
into two broad groups (sort of small-scale and large-scale publication), as
follows.
Anybody using Impression (which has always been sold as a document processor
- a sort of cross between a word processor and DTP program, as I understood
it) to produce manuscripts for submission to academic publications knows
that words that should be italicized are indicated by underlining (and if
you write about the Romans, there are *lots* of italicized words!), so as a
typewriter-replacement, it needs to be there (although I would agree that it
would be better to make it less accessible: say, dump it as an effect and
just continue it as one of the facilities available for a style, where
thickness, positioning, and conversion - you can't search-and-replace an
effect from within Impression - can be controlled). Such manuscripts are
best submitted in boring old Courier/Corpus with underlining, where
required, as (donning the hat of the editor of an academic journal) trying
to spot italics in hardcopy lovingly produced in a serifed font can be
*very* trying on the eyes; and as we all know, however many loaders and
filters you cram into your machine, there will always be some piece of text
produced on some obscure PC word processor that defies conversion to
anything other than plain ASCII. Equally, the submission of TV or radio
scripts demands the use of underlining (see the example scripts in N.
Longmate *Writing for the BBC* pp.96-7).
A more relevant example in the case of typesetting-for-publication might be
the transcription of a diary or something similar never originally
intended for publication, where the writer has used underlining (for
emphasis) and/or strikethrough (for deletion - no delete key on a fountain
pen;-) and the editor persuades the copy editor that it is essential that
these be retained. A borderline case, perhaps, but it *is* valid.
I would suggest that a more worrying usage (if underlining really is worth
*worrying* about) is presented by good old HTML, which uses it to indicate
links. Here we are talking about millions of people with access to the World
Wide Web seeing it in frequent use. How long will it be before it starts to
become typographically acceptable? By analogy with uses of 'bad' English, it
doesn't take long for the previously proscribed to become accepted practice
and then - Bob's your uncle - everybody's doing it. Comparable to this is
Project Gutenberg 'plain vanilla ASCII' text (done for perfectly
comprehensible reasons, I know), where emphasis, be it bold or italics, is
replaced by capitals WHICH CAN BE VERY ANNOYING IF YOU HAVE TO READ MORE
THAN A FEW WORDS. Phew! Try downloading Thomas Paine's *Common Sense*
(which, being a product of the eighteenth-century, had a lot of italics in
the original) from PG and marvel at those caps! How long before THIS catches
on?
The accessibility of typography to anybody with a computer is undoubtedly
bringing about changes, whether for good or bad, intentional or
unintentional. Take the acute-accent-instead-of-an-opening-quote problem.
Many word processors pull this little trick, with ASCII 96 at the beginning
of a quote, and the sexless single quote (ASCII 39) at the end. Import that
into Impression with smart quotes turned on and you're looking at a lot of
editing! You can catch it with loaders like RTF or WP51 thanks to the
!CCMapper utility, but not in plain ASCII (and here let's raise a cheer for
good old !Edit which has a far more sophisticated search-and-replace
facility than Impression and has mended many an alien-format file for me, as
well as untangled the nasty things people do to en-rules and hyphens; only a
pity that, unlike !Paint and !Draw, it's ignored by OLE). Certainly in
archaeology (but in other fields too, I've noticed) text produced on a word
processor that did this has been passed on (presumably on disk) to the
typesetter and hence you find 'professionally'-produced (and very expensive)
volumes of conference proceedings perpetuating this typographical boo-boo.
However, when the typography textbooks of the twenty-first century are
written, what may look hideous to us may, with the benefit of hindsight, be
both acceptable and explicable. Of course, these same textbooks may also
underline everything and feature at least six fonts (plus lots of 'clip
art') on every page...
Mike Bishop
[Sinks back down behind parapet with a sigh]
--
o.o.o M.C. BISHOP
o:::o Writer, publisher, & archaeologist
===== mcbi...@arma.demon.co.uk
o:::o Braemar, Kirkgate, Chirnside, DUNS, Berwickshire, TD11 3XL, UK
o.o.o Tel: (+44) 1890 818197 Fax (+44) 1890 818197 Mobile (0831) 514180
Paul L. Allen
S Pampling <steve.p...@argonet.co.uk> writes:
> "Paul L. Allen" <p...@sktb.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > In article <960403...@benowyn.zynet.co.uk>
> > David Watkins <da...@benowyn.zynet.co.uk> writes:
> >
> > > In article <ant31074...@leemingj.demon.co.uk>,
> > > John Leeming <jo...@leemingj.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > >
> > > >In article <19960330....@risctex.demon.co.uk>, Dick Smith
> > > ><mailto:di...@risctex.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> [snipped bits]
>
> > > I don't agree. Whilst I would not choose underlining to highlight
> > > creative text, I may need to refer to an underlined example in separate
> > > printed document. Or the answer sheet of an 'underline all the verbs
> > > in the following ...'. Or some A level maths equations.
>
> > You can always find exceptional cases for reproducing any typographic
> > abomination, no matter how bad. One general-purpose case is a book
> > about typography where you give examples of what *not* to do.
>
> I agree mostly, until I read a few books on the subject I was producing
> stuff that looked naff but I couldn't quite figure out what detail it was
> that did it. (It was a combination of things)
:-)
> However I dont think the example quoted above is either an 'exceptional
> case' or even valid, as worded I could underline the whole paragraph
> refered to and still be right.
Indeed. But that example, is itself, exceptional. There are not many
books about typography (compared with books in general). Of those, not
many choose to demonstrate how not to do things with actual examples.
> Besides what is being done there is a handwritten alteration
You've completely misunderstood then. I was not discussing a handwritten
alteration, but a text on typography which shows how bad underlining looks
by underlining some text.
> and as anyone whose read anything on the subject will know printers have
> used certain *handwritten* marks for years to signify emboldening, italics
> etc
Now you're talking about something completely different, which is how
to indicate italics and bold on handwritten or typewritten manuscripts
which are sent off to be typeset.
> If anyone can think of a valid reason for using underlining please speak
> up, so far the reasons given are not even print related (as above).
Read again.
> You are using DTP, not a typewriter, you have multiple indents, bold,
> italic, and within reason (hopefully), multiple fonts/typefaces.
> Why would you require an ugly feature like underlining?
Why indeed.
Followups set, yet again, to comp.sys.acorn.misc in an attempt to divert
a typography thread to a less incorrect place.
--Paul
Sveinung W. Tengelsen
Danie...@Nottingham.ac.uk (Daniel Pead) wrote:
> In article <19960329....@hasle.oslonett.no>
> pixe...@hasle.oslonett.no (Sveinung W. Tengelsen) writes:
>
> > Copied from the "Publishing" part of the interview;
> >
> > > Publishing
> > > Q19. Do you plan to major in the publishing arena?
> > > A19. ART has decided not to major on the professional publishing arena.
> > > We will, of course, support all users that we have within this domain,
> > > but it is clear that the effort involved in this niche market, and the
> > > rewards gained, are insufficient, relative to the opportunities that now
> > > present us because of our new, more aggressive licensing strategy.
> >
> > What exactly does this mean? Will none of the publishing-related parts
> > of RISC OS be updated significantly (like the FontManager) and will
> > nothing new be added (like colour correction)?
>
> Of course, World Wide Web, interactive TV and all the other majors of the
> Network Computer have nothing whatsoever to do with publishing :-)
Oh it does, absolutely. No conflict there. It's only as if ART believes
that there's little future in paper-based publishing, and hence won't
put much efforts into expanding/improving the bits in RISC OS relevant
to the field. I think this is a very bad move.
> The font manager, for example, is obviously crucial to WWW browsers and
> probably the biggest advantage that Fresco et. al. have over Netscrape.
> Things like PDF support and OS-level support for multiple graphics file
> types are also relevant to this. And why not colour correction? Surely
> advertisers on the net want their company logos to appear in their
> correct, heavily market-researched and probably trademarked, colour
> scheme?
Well, it's no colours in the CMYK-gamut which isn't also in the RGB-gamut.
For a browser to support colour calibration, a central resource is vital.
Someone advocated that all apps should supply their own ColCal routines,
but I believe that idea was scrapped as utter drivel? So that leaves
the responsibility of support on the system-level, which obviously
ART should be best suited to make a good implementation of, with the
aid of certain 3rd party who are well underway with developing
such a system for RISC OS (don't ask for details, I'm not free
to supply them).
> I'd have thought that the best future for Acorn Publishing is to take a
> leaf out of Xara's book (No, I don't mean sell out to Netscrape!) - and
> focus on 'electronic' publishing. Acorn software already has a bit of a
> head start here with its wide adoption of anti-aliassing and
> error-diffused dithering technologies (ever notice how 256 colour modes
> on a RISC-PC look almost as good as 32k colour modes under Windows?)
That'd be a good addition to A.P., indeed. I don't think it should be
added as a substitution for paper-destined jobs, 'tho.
> The *real* question for ART is - will the Network Computer-related
> technologies be restricted to delivery systems, or will the authoring
> maket also be targetted? In the latter case, Photodesk, Top Model (and
> even Artworks which, at the end of the day, is still a lovely package)
> etc. are all needed.
Compelling argument, isn't it? I wish ART would adopt the view, *ask*
some of us what's required re. developments/licences to achieve the
goal of making RISC OS-based publishing *more attractive*, then see if
they can afford the effort to include our requirements in their plans.
I think ART is unaware of the *huge* resource Clan Acorn potentially
represents, "potential" as long as ART leaves the Clan "idle".
Mike Gilbert
is) that the relevant piece of text was to be set in italics. Its use is to
emphasise, exactly as italics. Bold is different, more like a totally
different fount than just an emphasis. As a Zoology/Botany student way back
before computers (1978) we were taught to underline proper names of species;
as they were in Latin, they would be typeset in italics. Not that I ever got
so far as writing a thesis, of course (:-)
Mike
--
Mike Gilbert - Education Sales Manager, Taunton Micro Education
Suppliers of Acorn 32-bit RISC systems to schools & people across SW England
Opinions herein are personal, not corporate
Buy Textease, it's bloody great (:-)
Ben Jefferys
> In article <4jo8gj$j...@griffin.ccc.nottingham.ac.uk>,
> Danie...@Nottingham.ac.uk (Daniel Pead) wrote:
>
> > Of course, World Wide Web, interactive TV and all the other majors of the
> > Network Computer have nothing whatsoever to do with publishing :-)
>
> Oh it does, absolutely. No conflict there. It's only as if ART believes
> that there's little future in paper-based publishing, and hence won't
> put much efforts into expanding/improving the bits in RISC OS relevant
> to the field. I think this is a very bad move.
Why?
--
_ _ _
(_) ( (_) |) |_ Ben Jefferys | on holiday only - b...@qsure.demon.co.uk
| _) . |\ |_ | at all times - b...@doc.ic.ac.uk
Mike Glover
>
>If anyone can think of a valid reason for using underlining please speak
>up, so far the reasons given are not even print related (as above).
>italic, and within reason (hopefully), multiple fonts/typefaces.
>Why would you require an ugly feature like underlining?
Years ago, when we wrote MacAuthor, we deliberately left out underlining
in an attempt to improve the quality of users documentation.
We got howls of protest and had to put it back.
Another little ruse was to gobble up multiple spaces - so many
users will put two spaces after punctuation - another throwback
to the typewriter. That too was abandoned in favour of education.
Typography is all about legibility. If you have written a word
such as 'ugly' (lowercase) why make it difficult to read and ugly
by drawing a line through the desenders?
To answer the question - lawyers use strikeout to indicate a passge
that should removed from a text and underlining to indicate an
insertion, both of which are removed from the final document so
ideally are not seen by those of us that might be offended!
Dave Watkins point about underlining answers is valid if you
have a pen in your hand but Iwonder if extra marks should be awarded
to pupils that are careful to draw the line beneath the descenders
and not through them!
Mark Stephens
> mbh...@meehpb01.ee.man.ac.uk (Mark Stephens) wrote:
> > In the Electronic CAD (and probably other CAD variants)
> Wouldst care to tell, what a non electronic CAD is?
> Last I knew it stood for Computer Aided Design, or something rather close.
ECAD is the computer aided design of electronic systems such as VLSI and
PCB layout and finite element analysis for electomagnetic systems, e.g.
motor/generator design, EMC compliance.
The kind of software used for ECAD is different from that used for
mechanical CAD, architectural CAD, etc.
It is the area of CAD software that I am familiar with. See below for
why.
Mark Stephens
> [Sticks head above parapet to write]
> I would suggest that a more worrying usage (if underlining really is worth
> *worrying* about) is presented by good old HTML, which uses it to indicate
> links. Here we are talking about millions of people with access to the World
> Wide Web seeing it in frequent use. How long will it be before it starts to
> become typographically acceptable? By analogy with uses of 'bad' English, it
Underlining for links is a client feature more appropriate to clients
for text only terminals such as Lynx. Look at the Arena client for an
example that doesn't use underlining for links. The Harmony client
for Hyper-G is another good example.
HTML standards actually deprecate the use of markup such as <bold> and
<italic> that enforce a specific representation on the client, and
recommend <em> and <strong> are used.
Bad software pollutes the culture we inhabit, just a surely as bad English
does.
> [Sinks back down behind parapet with a sigh]
Mark.
Sveinung W. Tengelsen
b...@qsure.demon.co.uk (Ben Jefferys) wrote:
> On Sun, 07 Apr 1996 07:13:29 +0100, Sveinung W. Tengelsen (pixe...@hasle.oslonett.no) wrote
>
> > In article <4jo8gj$j...@griffin.ccc.nottingham.ac.uk>,
> > Danie...@Nottingham.ac.uk (Daniel Pead) wrote:
> >
> > > Of course, World Wide Web, interactive TV and all the other majors of the
> > > Network Computer have nothing whatsoever to do with publishing :-)
> >
> > Oh it does, absolutely. No conflict there. It's only as if ART believes
> > that there's little future in paper-based publishing, and hence won't
> > put much efforts into expanding/improving the bits in RISC OS relevant
> > to the field. I think this is a very bad move.
>
> Why?
Do a limited search in the c.s.a.* groups for publishing/bondar/ovation
- should tell you why.
Neil A Carson
<mailto:t...@mail.zynet.co.uk> wrote:
> Buy Textease, it's bloody great (:-)
Or if you really want sound typography, use LaTeX, which is free. Quite
easy touse after a while, too. Have you tried this?
Yours Aye,
Neil
* Neil A Carson
* Success Express Ltd. --- Sales and NLP training
* E-Mail: ne...@succexpr.demon.co.uk
* Phone: (01235) 528443
Paul L. Allen
Mike Gilbert <t...@mail.zynet.co.uk> writes:
> Historically, underlining told a typesetter (person pouring hot metal, that
> is) that the relevant piece of text was to be set in italics.
Underlining was the conventional way of indicating in hand- or type-written
manuscripts that italics should be used.
> Its use is to emphasise, exactly as italics.
Yes, but typewriters use underlining because they don't have italics.
Typographers use italics because a) you need a second printing pass or
(expensive) special type to do underlining and b) it's ugly unless you
have special type.
> Bold is different, more like a totally different fount than just an
> emphasis.
This was the bit that caught my eye - this is, of course, completely and
utterly wrong.
Bold is a different weight of the same face. You can, in an emergency, get
a poor-man's bold by overprinting the same characters with a little offset -
this works because it is the *same* typeface but with a different weight.
Italics *are* a different face. Different shapes of characters, different
widths of characters, different stroke widths, different serifs, extra
swashes and (of course) a slant. If ever you doubt this, try to find
somebody who has TeX installed on their system and get them to run off
some text using the unslanted italic font.
Incidentally, the unslanted italic face looks *awful*. It is not there
because it is a nice font, it goes back to a point I made earlier that
sometimes you can justify examples of bad typography in a book *about*
typography to demonstrate exactly *why* they are so bad. The only reason
the unslanted italic font exists is so that Knuth could show, in the TeXbook,
the difference between an italic font, a slanted roman font and an unslanted
italic font. Equally, you might be justified in showing, in a book about
typography, why underlining looks bad by printing some underlined text.
This does *not* mean that people ought to go around using underlined
unslanted italic...
Followups again set to comp.sys.acorn.misc. This isn't about apps. If
somebody wanted to know how to get underlining in Ovation or Impression
the post would be appropriate here. This thread has long since moved on
to why underlining is bad, and as such is not about apps. It's definitely
not about hardware. It's not really about c.s.a either, but if I move it to
an even more appropriate place few of you will be able to read it and you'd
get laughed at by the natives. :-)
--Paul
Dick Smith
] In article <ant08214...@tme.zynet.co.uk>, Mike Gilbert
]
] Or if you really want sound typography, use LaTeX, which is free. Quite
] easy to use after a while, too. Have you tried this?
Spot on! Typographically speaking it leaves _all_ the WYSIWYG stuff for dead,
no matter what platform you look at. If it was a condition that any
programmer who wanted to write a WP/DTP program had to pass a TeX or LaTeX
'driving test', the world would be a better place.
Harrison SP
: Years ago, when we wrote MacAuthor, we deliberately left out underlining
: in an attempt to improve the quality of users documentation.
: We got howls of protest and had to put it back.
: Another little ruse was to gobble up multiple spaces - so many
: users will put two spaces after punctuation - another throwback
: to the typewriter. That too was abandoned in favour of education.
I put two spaces after a full stop when I am doing work with a
proportional font. I do this because a single space is small - by using
two it emphasises the separation of the sentences and IMHO makes the
document more readable.
Will somebody please tell me what is so wrong with this?
--
Stephen Harrison
Sheffield University
s.p.ha...@shef.ac.uk
Nick Macdonald
> proportional font. I do this because a single space is small - by using
> two it emphasises the separation of the sentences and IMHO makes the
> document more readable.
look ugly is inconsistency within documents, not differences in
formatting preference between them.
Nick
Philip Armstrong
Harrison SP <firb106%te...@dcs.shef.ac.uk> wrote:
>I put two spaces after a full stop when I am doing work with a
>proportional font. I do this because a single space is small - by using
>two it emphasises the separation of the sentences and IMHO makes the
>document more readable.
>
>
stop than between words in a sentance - TeX for one does this, as should
any good word processor. However, the work should be done by the
computer, not the typist. Personally, I find two spaces to be too much -
it breaks up the flow of text, but some extra space does improve its
readability.
Maybe someone could see what Impression or Ovation do with a space after
a full stop?
Phil
Trev
there's a full stop.
Trev
--
________Note:_Email_address_only_valid_until_14_June_1996_
`\|||/'o O / Trevor K. Johnson, email: t.k.j...@bradford.ac.uk \
(o o) | Civ. Eng. Student, compulsive CD ..WWW page pending.. |
ooO_(_)_Ooo__\_buyer_and_Acorn_Anorak_Extraordinaire_____(still...)_____/
Harrison SP
[Snip]
: Maybe someone could see what Impression or Ovation do with a space after
: a full stop?
I have never come across a program which will automatically put a
bigger space after full stops - that is why I do it by hand, not because
I want to but because it is the only way to get the effect.
: Phil
Tony Spence
>
> I put two spaces after a full stop when I am doing work with a
> proportional font. I do this because a single space is small - by using
> two it emphasises the separation of the sentences and IMHO makes the
> document more readable.
>
> Will somebody please tell me what is so wrong with this?
>
Absolutely nothing! There's no law which states that you *MUST* lay out
your work in any specific manner.
An ex-colleague of mine who spent several years (he admits to more than 10)
working in the printing industry gave me a lot of guidance on layout and
typographic 'conventions'. He, like me, puts two spaces after a full stop
to make documents more readable, despite the fact that, according to him,
this is against the 'rules of good layout'.
Before we start worrying about how many spaces to put after a full stop many
of us need to look closely at our *use* of punctuation - let's get the
commas, semi-colons, colons, apostrophes (especially the apostrophes) etc.
in the right place first.
--
Tony Spence
Mark Stephens
> Mike Glover (mi...@lccgroup.co.uk) wrote:
>
> : Years ago, when we wrote MacAuthor, we deliberately left out underlining
> : in an attempt to improve the quality of users documentation.
> : We got howls of protest and had to put it back.
> : Another little ruse was to gobble up multiple spaces - so many
> : users will put two spaces after punctuation - another throwback
> : to the typewriter. That too was abandoned in favour of education.
>
> proportional font. I do this because a single space is small - by using
> two it emphasises the separation of the sentences and IMHO makes the
> document more readable.
>
> Will somebody please tell me what is so wrong with this?
It is not wrong, just a tad excessive and cause distracting vertical lines
to appear when several line endings line up within a paragraph.
The full stop is already half in space in itself so m m looks different
from m. m
I use the letter m because this is the width of an em-space in a proportional
font.
Follow ups to .misc
Alun Da Penguin Jones
>
>I have never come across a program which will automatically put a
>bigger space after full stops - that is why I do it by hand, not because
>I want to but because it is the only way to get the effect.
LaTeX.
Alun.
--
#!perl -i(X,Y,S,U,V,$_)=(-2,-2,4,80,40,"\n");if($#a>1){(X,Y,S)=@a}for((B,I)=Y+
split('',' Alun Jones, IBS UW Aberystwyth, a...@aber.ac.uk '),@a=@ARGV;$_=$^I.'
S;I++<V;B-=S/V){for((A,J)=X;J++<U;A+=S/U){(G,H,N)=(A,B);while((C=G*G)+(D=H*H)<
4&&++N<$#_){H=2*G*H+B,G=C-D+A}print$_[N]}print;A+=S/U}';s/([A-Z])/\$\1/g;eval;
Gry...@catling.iaehv.nl
pja...@ast.cam.ac.uk (Philip Armstrong) wrote:
>In article <4l03fd$6...@bignews.shef.ac.uk>,
>Harrison SP <firb106%te...@dcs.shef.ac.uk> wrote:
>>I put two spaces after a full stop when I am doing work with a
>>proportional font. I do this because a single space is small - by using
>>two it emphasises the separation of the sentences and IMHO makes the
>>document more readable.
>>Will somebody please tell me what is so wrong with this?
There's nothing inherintly wrong with this. It's mostly a matter of
style. Normally the combination of a m-space and a capital are suf-
ficient to separate sentences. In languages with a lot of capitals,
or writing that uses a lot of capitalizations (or large glyphs)
this is on occasion not the case. In those situations it is often
advised to insert an extra space to mark the beginning of
sentences more clearly.
>I believe that "good" typography implies a larger space after a full
>stop than between words in a sentance - TeX for one does this, as should
>any good word processor.
It depends to a large extend on the font. Some fonts have a relatively
small m-width, especially for their spaces. On such fonts the spacing
between end and beginning of a sentence might get obscured some. In
general for those fonts it's good to insert an n-space after the full
stop as well as an m-space. The three characters together will form
something like two m-spaces worth of distance between both sentences
which is quite readable. Anything more is likely to interfere with
the justification.
>However, the work should be done by the
>computer, not the typist. Personally, I find two spaces to be too much -
>it breaks up the flow of text, but some extra space does improve its
>readability.
>Maybe someone could see what Impression or Ovation do with a space after
>a full stop?
Not much :)
They don't add anything, but it would be very easy to invent a kerning
pair for full stop and space to increase the spacing artificially.
Using a font with more pronounced capitals likely will have the same
effect (if that is possible of course). The typical oldstyle or transi-
tional font (the ones with the seriffs that look like they've been
painted) provides a large visual difference between lowercase and
capitals. Modern (with their hair-line seriffs) and sans-seriff faces
in general are less distinct in this respect. Which is one of the
reasons why those fonts are harder to use for body text.
hmm. I'm getting off-topic, so I better stop here. I'm sure a
real typographer can explain better, and in more detail.
mark
--
Tony Yeboah's Boots
the convention was to place two spaces after a full stop and one space after a comma.
Cuong.
Ray Dawson
: Further up the screen Harrison SP (firb106%te...@dcs.shef.ac.uk) wrote:
: >
: >I have never come across a program which will automatically put a
: >bigger space after full stops - that is why I do it by hand, not
: because
: >I want to but because it is the only way to get the effect.
:
: LaTeX.
Publisher will do it for you if you want. Use the Abbreviations
dictionary to make (.) into (. ) and every time you type a full stop
followed by a space it will put two spaces in.
Ray D
--
.=====================================.
| M a g R a y Document Services | Ray Dawson Tel: 0181 864 7208
| the print and braille specialists | ra...@argonet.co.uk
'=====================================' http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/rayd
... A man's computer room is his castle
Mark Stephens
> In article <4l0hsr$jsv@cass19>,
> pja...@ast.cam.ac.uk (Philip Armstrong) wrote:
>
> >In article <4l03fd$6...@bignews.shef.ac.uk>,
> >Harrison SP <firb106%te...@dcs.shef.ac.uk> wrote:
> >Maybe someone could see what Impression or Ovation do with a space after
> >a full stop?
>
> Not much :)
> They don't add anything, but it would be very easy to invent a kerning
> pair for full stop and space to increase the spacing artificially.
I think a word processor could get confused between an abrev. and the
end of a sentence.
Harrison SP
: a...@aber.ac.uk (Alun "Da Penguin" Jones) wrote:
: : Further up the screen Harrison SP (firb106%te...@dcs.shef.ac.uk) wrote:
: : >
: : >I have never come across a program which will automatically put a
: : >bigger space after full stops - that is why I do it by hand, not
: : because
: : >I want to but because it is the only way to get the effect.
: :
: : LaTeX.
: Publisher will do it for you if you want. Use the Abbreviations
: dictionary to make (.) into (. ) and every time you type a full stop
: followed by a space it will put two spaces in.
But that is effectively just the same as me typing 2 spaces.
It is not the program putting in a larger single space.
John Leeming
during the last 50 years or so. In days gone by it was quite common to
do, for example, the following things:
Insert an n-space (or thin space) before a closing quote, and question
mark or an exclamation mark.
Insert an n-space (or thin space) after an opening quote.
Use an m-dash with no space either side.
Put a larger space after a full stop at the end of a sentence.
Nowadays no extra space seems to be used before/after punctuation marks,
except that the m-dash has been replaced by an n-dash with a space on
each side. I now find older books with all the additional space less
comfortable to read!
Current fashion for full-stops seems to be:
No additional space appears after the end of a sentence when using a
proportional font.
One extra space is added between sentences when using a typewriter or a
monospaced font in left-justified mode.
I suppose I should've put an extra space after my sentences! I didn't
'cos I'm so used to using justified proportionality!
--
John Leeming
Richard Lambley
> Fashions change. Look at what's happened to the typesetting of books
> during the last 50 years or so. In days gone by it was quite common to
> do, for example, the following things:
>
> Insert an n-space (or thin space) before a closing quote, and question
> mark or an exclamation mark.
As I recall from my hand-setting days, printers had em, en, thick and thin
spaces; and it's a great pity that we don't have electronic equivalents
(other than to fiddle the kerning). A problem I have from time to time is
with single quotes within double quotes -- as in "He said: 'Good morning'".
In a proportional font, the '" usually produces three equally spaced marks,
but it would look much better if I could have a thin space to keep them
apart. In other cases I often use a hard space, which, in the fonts I use,
tends to produce a narrower gap than an ordinary space.
I suspect that the disappearance of the em-dash with no spaces from book
printing is at least partly due to the changeover to electronic copy
preparation.
Richard
--
__ _ __
L A N D / / (_) / = Richard Lambley Land Mobile magazine =
__ _ ___ / / __/ /__ Redhill, Surrey
/ ' \/ _ \/ _ \/ / / -_) Tel. +44 1737 771877; fax +44 1737 773347
/_/_/_/\___/_.__/_/_/\__/ ** Wireless communications for business **
Philip Armstrong
Richard Lambley <ric...@wireless.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>As I recall from my hand-setting days, printers had em, en, thick and thin
>spaces; and it's a great pity that we don't have electronic equivalents
>(other than to fiddle the kerning). A problem I have from time to time is
>with single quotes within double quotes -- as in "He said: 'Good morning'".
>In a proportional font, the '" usually produces three equally spaced marks,
>but it would look much better if I could have a thin space to keep them
>apart. In other cases I often use a hard space, which, in the fonts I use,
>tends to produce a narrower gap than an ordinary space.
>
>I suspect that the disappearance of the em-dash with no spaces from book
>printing is at least partly due to the changeover to electronic copy
>preparation.
``He said: `Good morning'\ ''
in a TeX file will do precisely what you're looking for (the opening quotes
might come out as something weird in you're character set btw, but
that's what they are.)
cheers,
Phil
Jon Ribbens
I think that should be:
``He said: `Good morning'\,''
otherwise you get much too big a gap in-between the ' and ''.
Cheers
Jon
____
\ // Jon Ribbens // es...@csv.warwick.ac.uk //
\// http://www.csv.warwick.ac.uk/~esveb/ //
Philip Armstrong
Jon Ribbens <es...@csv.warwick.ac.uk> wrote:
>Philip Armstrong <pja...@ast.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
>> So use TeX! --
>>
>> ``He said: `Good morning'\ ''
>
>I think that should be:
>
> ``He said: `Good morning'\,''
>
>otherwise you get much too big a gap in-between the ' and ''.
>
coo:
\, thin space
\; thick space
\: medium space
\! negative thin space
hmm. Not very intuitive, but I suppuse you have to pick *some*
character to do the job...
cheers,
Phil
Paul L. Allen
ric...@wireless.demon.co.uk (Richard Lambley) writes:
> In message <ant21095...@leemingj.demon.co.uk> John Leeming wrote:
>
> > Fashions change. Look at what's happened to the typesetting of books
> > during the last 50 years or so. In days gone by it was quite common to
> > do, for example, the following things:
> >
> > Insert an n-space (or thin space) before a closing quote, and question
> > mark or an exclamation mark.
>
> As I recall from my hand-setting days, printers had em, en, thick and thin
> spaces;
And a few more, if you were lucky.
> and it's a great pity that we don't have electronic equivalents
> (other than to fiddle the kerning).
Depends on the software you use...
> A problem I have from time to time is with single quotes within double
> quotes -- as in "He said: 'Good morning'". In a proportional font, the '"
> usually produces three equally spaced marks, but it would look much better
> if I could have a thin space to keep them apart.
Indeed. It would be normal to insert a thin space there. If you use LaTeX,
you do so with ``He said: `Good morning'\,''. The \, means a thin space
whilst `` and '' are automatically converted to double inverted comma and
double apostrophe respectively.
> In other cases I often use a hard space, which, in the fonts I use,
> tends to produce a narrower gap than an ordinary space.
Ummm, it *ought* to be the same size. Which is far too large a space to be
used there.
> I suspect that the disappearance of the em-dash with no spaces from book
> printing is at least partly due to the changeover to electronic copy
> preparation.
Mainly a newspaper practise, to cope with the difficulties of setting to
a narrow measure.
--Paul
Dick Smith
] is \, an en (em?) space?? (sfx: Phil trundles of to find TeXbook)
]
] coo:
]
] \, thin space
] \; thick space
] \: medium space
] \! negative thin space
Thanks Phil. This nicely demonstrates one of the typographical facilities
that we don't have for normal Risc OS WP/DTP programs, which only really
have one space thickness.
Personally (perhaps I should underline that) when using an em dash I think
it looks better with a thin space either side\,---\,like that in LaTeX.
The only way you can achieve the same thing in Impression et al. is to
fiddle with the kerning pairs. Yuck!
\begin{personalview}
We need better typographical facilities in our programs.
\end{personalview}
Richard Lambley
> So use TeX! --
Well, maybe I should have another look at it. But can it be used for the sort
of thing I do, i.e. magazine work? As I understand it, from having looked at
the distribution on assorted RISC OS CD-roms, it's more suited to setting
novels or perhaps academic papers. Does anyone use it for magazines?
Also, I seem to remember that it's about as intimidating for the newcomer as
trying to set up the PD internet suite without the help of the starter pack
-- all those mysterious files and directories :(
Owen M. Astley
Richard Lambley <ric...@wireless.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In message <4lg4j5$ahi@cass24> Philip Armstrong wrote:
>
>> So use TeX! --
>
>Well, maybe I should have another look at it. But can it be used for the sort
>of thing I do, i.e. magazine work? As I understand it, from having looked at
>the distribution on assorted RISC OS CD-roms, it's more suited to setting
>novels or perhaps academic papers. Does anyone use it for magazines?
>
>Also, I seem to remember that it's about as intimidating for the newcomer as
>trying to set up the PD internet suite without the help of the starter pack
>-- all those mysterious files and directories :(
Well, it is a little intimidating but the effort pays off. Whether it is
useful for you depends one what you need to do. It does tend to be
more useful for papers though. One thing that tends to put people off
is that TeX has its own rules about where to put things - it is not
WYSIWIG at all. This may be a disadvantage for laying out a magazine, but
not for writing the actual articles.
There is a lot of help on the internet - try the newsgroup comp.text.tex and
the web site http://www.cogs.susx.ac.uk/cgi-bin/texfaq2html?introduction=yes
Owen
Robin Watts
In message <4lg4j5$ahi@cass24> Philip Armstrong wrote:
> So use TeX! --
Well, maybe I should have another look at it. But can it be used
for the sort of thing I do, i.e. magazine work?
TeX *can* be used for anything that involves putting dots on papers.
You'd be mad to try and lay out a magazine in TeX though... (though it
could manage something as simple as say Archive...
Also, I seem to remember that it's about as intimidating for the
newcomer as trying to set up the PD internet suite without the help
of the starter pack -- all those mysterious files and directories :(
The TeX distribution at ftp.comlab.ox.ac.uk:/tmp/Robin.Watts/TeX is
designed to be easy to get started with - A TeX starter kit if you
like. Work is underway simplifying it further...
Robin
David Robinson
> I have never come across a program which will automatically put a bigger
> space after full stops - that is why I do it by hand,
I've got a program on my HD called !TextCheck, by Chris Allen. It's
rather slow when using big files but it allows you to define the
number of spaces after a full stop, between words, the spaces by which
to indent a paragraph and the number of lines between paragraphs.
Works on Text, 1stWord Plus and PipeDream files.
It will also do a search for wrong case characters.
It was released by Archimedes World in 1993 as version 1.3. I have no
idea whether further versions were produced, or what the copyright
restrictions are. There is no address for the author either :-(
It's not the worlds fastest program, but it sure beats doing a couple
of pages by hand!
Cheers,
David
,_, ,_,
(o,o) (o,o)
{`"'} {`"'}
-"-"- -"-"-
E-Mail : robi...@robinson.avel.co.uk
Home Page : http://www.lookup.com/Homepages/80937/home.html
Paul L. Allen
ric...@wireless.demon.co.uk (Richard Lambley) writes:
> In message <4lg4j5$ahi@cass24> Philip Armstrong wrote:
>
> > So use TeX! --
>
> Well, maybe I should have another look at it. But can it be used for the sort
> of thing I do, i.e. magazine work?
It is certainly capable of it - TeX is a turing-complete programming language
as well as a typesetting system. The trouble is that nobody has really
done much in the way of making it do magazine work (except TV-guide in the
US, but they won't make their stuff PD).
> As I understand it, from having looked at the distribution on assorted
> RISC OS CD-roms, it's more suited to setting novels
Any sort of book, particularly technical ones.
> or perhaps academic papers.
Those too. Especially when used in conjunction with BibTeX for
bibliographies.
> Does anyone use it for magazines?
Not that I know of, at least not without doing a lot of heavy-duty in-house
work which they don't make public.
> Also, I seem to remember that it's about as intimidating for the newcomer as
> trying to set up the PD internet suite without the help of the starter pack
> -- all those mysterious files and directories :(
Tosh. Compared to setting up TeX, the internet suite is a piece of piss.
--Paul
William Waghorn
<ra...@argonet.co.uk> writes
>: >
>: >I have never come across a program which will automatically put a
>: because
>: >I want to but because it is the only way to get the effect.
>:
>: LaTeX.
>
>Publisher will do it for you if you want. Use the Abbreviations
>dictionary to make (.) into (. ) and every time you type a full stop
>followed by a space it will put two spaces in.
Yuk!
This is a bad idea, not just because it is going to screw up abbreviated
words (eg. 'Prof. Hawkins' where a double space would be inappropriate).
As a touch-typist, I'd have to turn off an 'extra space after a full
stop' feature, since I'll forever be typing two spaces without any
conscious thought.
Not that conscious thought has anything to do with anything I write...
Hadn't you noticed?
--
William Waghorn
- this is pretty inoffensive stuff, but I still have to point out that
- it is all my own work.
Dick Smith
] Tosh. Compared to setting up TeX, the internet suite is a piece of piss.
I'm not sure I agree with this. I found the ArmTeX distribution (from
Robin Watts) fairly straightforward to set up, and certainly easier than
the first time I set up the Internet suite.
However, I do agree that TeX and LaTeX are more suited to books and papers
(particularly technical ones) than to magazine design. It wasn't intended
for 'page design', it is more of a typographer's 'Expert System', and a
brilliant one at that.
T. G. Riches
--------------------------------------
>This is a bad idea, not just because it is going to screw up abbreviated
>words (eg. 'Prof. Hawkins' where a double space would be inappropriate).
>As a touch-typist, I'd have to turn off an 'extra space after a full
>stop' feature, since I'll forever be typing two spaces without any
>conscious thought.
--
>William Waghorn
Ummm, I've had this 'debate' with many people, mainly secretaries who are
trained to type two spaces after the full stop. This is my theory:
secretaries are trained on typewriters which use non-proportionally
spaced fonts (like the one this text is in, i.e. an M takes up the same
amount of horizontal space as an I), so for a new sentence to be easily
seen it is necessary to include 2 spaces after the full stop.
Proportionally-spaced fonts such as Trinity (or Times) are much more
'tightly' formed and words are still recognisable even though an 'i' is
much less wide than an 'm'. Hence, only one space is needed to
distinguish a new sentence.
I hereby conclude (for my personal tastes anyway), that double-spacing
sentences in a proportionally-spaced font is wrong and leaves rivers in
the text. So why aren't secretaries taught not to do it (after all, it
saves time in the long run...yeah I know, not much!) especially because
most of them will go onto working with word processors and
proportionally-spaced fonts.
Ah well, enough theorising for one day...!! ; )
Tim Riches
4th Year Mech. Engineer, Cardiff
(and definitely NOT a secretary!!)
Philip Armstrong
>
>> So use TeX! --
>
>Well, maybe I should have another look at it. But can it be used for the sort
>the distribution on assorted RISC OS CD-roms, it's more suited to setting
Erm. Magazines? As in mostly page layout. I'm sure its *possible* in
TeX or LaTeX (TeX is a programming language in its own right after all..)
but TeX is more aimed at writing books / technical articles. You
can include images & the like from external sources (eg eps files)
relatively easily, but its not really set up for the kind of page
layout work that (say) Pagemaker / Impression etc are designed
to do. I suppose if the typography is that important (and TeX has the
best typography I've ever seen -- have you seen what Word does to
text? bleuurgh.) then it might be worth it....
>Also, I seem to remember that it's about as intimidating for the newcomer as
>trying to set up the PD internet suite without the help of the starter pack
>-- all those mysterious files and directories
well possibly, but I just grabbed the ArmTeX distribution from hensa (I think)
and unpacked it according to the instructions, and I haven't had any problems
at all (4Mb A310, Arm3, 400Mb SCSI hd). No fiddly install problems whatsoever
-- much kudos to the people who created the distribution methinks...
cheers,
Phil
Harrison SP
T. G. Riches (sce...@cf.ac.uk) wrote:
: Ummm, I've had this 'debate' with many people, mainly secretaries who are
: trained to type two spaces after the full stop. This is my theory:
: secretaries are trained on typewriters which use non-proportionally
: spaced fonts (like the one this text is in, i.e. an M takes up the same
: amount of horizontal space as an I), so for a new sentence to be easily
: seen it is necessary to include 2 spaces after the full stop.
: Proportionally-spaced fonts such as Trinity (or Times) are much more
: 'tightly' formed and words are still recognisable even though an 'i' is
: much less wide than an 'm'. Hence, only one space is needed to
: distinguish a new sentence.
But you still have the same provlem - all the spaces are the same size
(an en space ?). So youre argument for non-proportional fonts holds true
for proportional spaced fonts - it makes sentances easier to see.
William Waghorn
In article <DqFAJ...@cf.ac.uk>, "T. G. Riches" <sce...@cf.ac.uk>
writes
>>This is a bad idea, not just because it is going to screw up abbreviated
>>words (eg. 'Prof. Hawkins' where a double space would be inappropriate).
>>As a touch-typist, I'd have to turn off an 'extra space after a full
>>stop' feature, since I'll forever be typing two spaces without any
>>conscious thought.
>
>'tightly' formed and words are still recognisable even though an 'i' is
>much less wide than an 'm'. Hence, only one space is needed to
>distinguish a new sentence.
There is unfortunately one minor problem. Most proportional fonts use a
proportionately smaller space - to make a gap equivalent to a single mono-
spaced character or -say- an 'm', you usually require two of 'em
(involuntary pun - honest!). I think the best explanation is that the double-
space became the norm in order to provide the visual equivalent of the
pause between sentences. I like this because it gives me time to digest
what I've just read.
--
- William Waghorn
- wwag...@litany.demon.co.uk
- and this means that right now my opinions are my own and
- you shouldn't presume that they're shared by my employer.
a...@pixie.co.za
Harrison SP wrote:
>
> T. G. Riches (sce...@cf.ac.uk) wrote:
>
> : Ummm, I've had this 'debate' with many people, mainly secretaries who are
> : trained to type two spaces after the full stop. This is my theory:
> : secretaries are trained on typewriters which use non-proportionally
> : spaced fonts (like the one this text is in, i.e. an M takes up the same
> : amount of horizontal space as an I), so for a new sentence to be easily
> : seen it is necessary to include 2 spaces after the full stop.
>
> : 'tightly' formed and words are still recognisable even though an 'i' is
> : much less wide than an 'm'. Hence, only one space is needed to
> : distinguish a new sentence.
Stephen Harrison added:
> But you still have the same provlem - all the spaces are the same size
> (an en space ?). So youre argument for non-proportional fonts holds true
> for proportional spaced fonts - it makes sentances easier to see.
>
> --
T G Riches makes a great leap from tightly-formed Trinity type and "m's"
and "i's" to lay the foundation for the argument that only one space is
necessary after a sentence to separate it clearly from the next.
Surely the guide for setting type should be one of clarity? Betty Binns
in her excellent book "Better Type" gives all sorts of examples of how to
set type so that ease of reading is achieved. She maintains, very
broadly, that spacing between words and words, lines and lines, letters
and letters should be such that an overall grey appearance should be
achieved. Although, after a quick glance at her book whilst I've been on
line with this posting, she doesn't appear to say anything about the
number of spaces after a sentence fullstop, she appears to favour one
space only.
Our studio always places two spaces, because we feel it aids clarity of
recognition of words and thoughts. Yes, certainly it interferes with the
overall grey appearance which Binns finds so attractive (and is indeed
attractive) but we feel clarity of the communication of thought to be
supreme. Maybe as advertising designers this makes us prioritise our
aims into clarity first,and beauty second.
Justin >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> JUSTIN JAMES DESIGN a...@pixie.co.za
THERE IS LIFE AFTER DOS
James Ponder
Harrison SP (firb106%te...@dcs.shef.ac.uk) wrote:
: But you still have the same provlem - all the spaces are the same size
: (an en space ?). So youre argument for non-proportional fonts holds true
: for proportional spaced fonts - it makes sentances easier to see.
I put two between my sentences, it certainly makes things easier to see,
however, my mum (!) was taught to put three after a fullstop, two after a
semicolon and one after a comma.
Best wishes, James
PS. Nowadays it comes down to personal taste IMHO - we could start a 'one
space or two holy wars' alongside the Zap/StrongEd one (BTW use StrongEd,
oh yes!).
--
// James Ponder, ja...@doggysoft.co.uk or es...@csv.warwick.ac.uk.
// http://www.doggysoft.co.uk/, telnet oaktree.zynet.co.uk port 9000.
Di Hillage
Not entirely on topic but related to this thread....
Does anyone know if any of the RISCOS wordprocessors allow the user to show a
symbol (which is then not printed) on the screen when a space is typed and/or
when return is pressed, as can be done in various PC packages.
This is very helpful when introducing beginners to word processing. I've tried
to suggest this as an extra feature to be added to the Impression family, but
they didn't seem to grasp the idea !
--
--. --. --. --. : : --- --- .---------------------------------------------.
|_| |_| | _ | | | | |_ | |Acornwal| user...01736 63918...Miss Di Hillage
| | |\ | | | | |\| | | '---------------------------------------------'
| | | \ |_| |_| | | |__ | dhil...@argonet.co.uk
Andy Armstrong
In article <Dq24z...@cee.hw.ac.uk>, Ian Cameron <ce...@cee.hw.ac.uk>
writes
>Trev (T.K.J...@bradford.ac.uk) wrote:
>: Well, AFAIK Impression Style does the same space regardless of whether
>: there's a full stop.
>
>: Trev
>I was taught that you always put 2 spaces after a full stop and 1 after a
>comma.
>
>That's what you have to do on a manual typewriter after all.
Bashing the keys really hard is a good idea for the same reason.
--
Andy Armstrong, WonderWorks
poppy
ce...@cee.hw.ac.uk (Ian Cameron) wrote:
>I was taught that you always put 2 spaces after a full stop and 1 after a
>comma.
>
>That's what you have to do on a manual typewriter after all.
Yes, I was taught this too. I tend to do it out of habbit, not really
consciously. But why do browsers all ignore the double space after a full-
stop (or are there some that don't?), it's really annoying.
poppy.
--
Programmers don't sleep - they park their heads.
John Slee
> Publisher will do it for you if you want. Use the Abbreviations
> dictionary to make (.) into (. ) and every time you type a full stop
> followed by a space it will put two spaces in.
I fail to see how - AFAIK abbreviations have to be preceded by a space
in order to be expanded. So I can only replace full stop,space by full
stop,space,space if I put a space before my full stop . I don't think
that is the desired effect.
Pse tell me if there is another way.
John
--
jo...@slee.avel.co.uk +44 1637 860358
The Rectory, St.Mawgan, Newquay, Cornwall, UK. TR8 4EZ
Darren Salt
In article <4ltqr5$4...@amaretto.csv.warwick.ac.uk>
es...@csv.warwick.ac.uk (James Ponder) wrote:
> PS. Nowadays it comes down to personal taste IMHO - we could start a 'one
> space or two holy wars' alongside the Zap/StrongEd one
Forget the one space - the two holy wars sound interesting. ;-D
> (BTW use StrongEd, oh yes!).
No! Use Zap (with ZapDS of course). And definitely one space, not two...
--
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Darren Salt - arc...@spuddy.mew.co.uk - ToonArmy - darre...@unn.ac.uk |
| Acorn A3010, Spectrum +3, BBC Master - Season ticket - Windoze free zone! |
+-01268-515441-free-email-&-Usenet----Asprilla-is-trickier-than-small-print-+
Sorry ... my mind has a few bad sectors.
Vincent Lefevre
In article <4m7ft2$n...@info-server.surrey.ac.uk>, poppy (mu2...@surrey.ac.uk) wrote:
> Yes, I was taught this too. I tend to do it out of habbit, not really
> consciously. But why do browsers all ignore the double space after a full-
> stop (or are there some that don't?), it's really annoying.
I think that any sequence of spaces/newlines is equivalent to one
single space (except if you use <PRE>); that's why <P> is necessary
to define paragraphs. The rule "a double space after each fullstop"
may be applied by the browser or not; the double space is not
indicated in the HTML source. But then, the problem is to recognize
a real fullstop.
I think this is similar to TeX. After a period (and under some
conditions), TeX automatically puts a larger space than normal
(and if you don't want to, you have to write "\ ").
--
Vincent Lefevre, vlef...@ens-lyon.fr | Acorn RiscPC600, 20+1MB RAM, Eagle M2
http://www.ens-lyon.fr/~vlefevre | Apple CD-300, SyQuest 270MB
Magistere d'informatique, 3e annee | Atari Falcon030, 4MB RAM
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Glover
Argh no! StrongEd anyday!
> And definitely one space, not two...
I'll go with that.
... We call our dog Egypt, because in every room he leaves a pyramid.
--
__ ________________ _____ _________________________________________
/ |/ / ___/ __/ __/__ / _/ /_ / David Glover |
/ /|_/ / /___\ \_\ \/ _ \/ _/ __/ / MCSSoftware | Oxford, England.
/_/ /_/\___/___/___/\___/_/ \__/ / glo...@argonet.co.uk |____________________
_________________________________/ www.argonet.co.uk/users/glover/david.html
Alan Wrigley
> ... We call our dog Egypt, because in every room he leaves a pyramid.
We call our dog Grieg, because he's always wanting to Peer Gynt Suite.
Alan
--
Alan Wrigley http://www.cybervillage.co.uk/
Paul L. Allen
In article <4m7ft2$n...@info-server.surrey.ac.uk>
poppy <mu2...@surrey.ac.uk> writes:
> ce...@cee.hw.ac.uk (Ian Cameron) wrote:
>
> >I was taught that you always put 2 spaces after a full stop and 1 after a
> >comma.
> >
> >That's what you have to do on a manual typewriter after all.
>
> Yes, I was taught this too.
Typewritten <> typeset. A typewriter uses a monospaced, single font (with
the possibility of underlining and overstriking to emulate bold). Typeset
material can use a wide range of proportional fonts at different sizes.
That's why you underline things on a typewriter when you would use italics
in typeset material. Not because it looks better (it doesn't) but because
that's *all* you can do. As you've just seen, in usenet you don't even
have underlining, so you have to do *something else*.
In conventional typography, it was common (but not universal) to insert
some extra space after sentence-ending punctuation. Not *two* spaces,
because in typeset material spaces, like character widths, come in a number
of sizes. So if the space between words on a line is width <x>, you
might have the space after sentence-ending puntuation being 1.3<x>. With
a typewriter you don't usually have that degree of control, so you use
two spaces.
Why have extra space at all? To make the ends of sentences a little more
obvious, especially when you might have an abbr. in the mid. of sentences.
Why not have two spaces in typeset material? Because it can lead to
unpleasant `rivers' of white space in paragraphs. Why have all these
fractional spaces in typeset material? So you can fully justify lines
without them looking uneven (as in the previous line).
In reprinting his own works, whenever [William Morris] found a line
that justified awkwardly, he altered the wording solely for the sake
of making it look well in print.
When a proof has been sent me with two or three lines so widely
spaced as to make a grey band across the page, I have often rewritten
the passage to as to fill up the space better; but I am sorry to say
that my object has generally been so little understood that the
compositor has spoilt all the rest of the paragraph instead of
mending his former bad work.
George Bernard Shaw, in The Dolphin (1940)
> But why do browsers all ignore the double space after a full-
> stop (or are there some that don't?), it's really annoying.
Because the spec says that the browser should collapse multiple spaces
to a single space. This allows you to lay out the source however you
find convenient. Even
like
this if
you so
wish. It also means that if you *accidentally* insert some extra spaces in
the source it won't make the output look bad.
There is nothing in the spec which prevents a browser, after it has
collapsed multiple spaces on input, in adding extra visual space on output.
However, there is nothing in HTML which allows it to work out when a full
stop is sentence-ending punctuation and when it is not. M. Francois L.
Depeche-Mode obtained his B. Phil. for his work on Vit. B complexes. Your
hypothetical browser would put extra space after *all* the full stops in the
previous sentence. Since the whole point of the extra space is to
distinguish between full stops at the ends of sentences from those used to
end abbreviations, this not only does *not* achieve the objective, require
extra code and slow the rendering down, it also makes the whole sentence
look bad...
--Paul
Dick Smith
In message <b6c6m...@sktb.demon.co.uk> "Paul L. Allen" wrote:
[snip]
] Typewritten <> typeset. A typewriter uses a monospaced, single font (with
] the possibility of underlining and overstriking to emulate bold). Typeset
] material can use a wide range of proportional fonts at different sizes.
]
] That's why you underline things on a typewriter when you would use italics
] in typeset material. Not because it looks better (it doesn't) but because
] that's *all* you can do. As you've just seen, in usenet you don't even
] have underlining, so you have to do *something else*.
[Excellent, well argued points snipped here]
OK, so now we _all_ know how to handle the finer points of emphasis and
sentence ending spaces (as opposed to spaces following an abbreviation)
just exactly which Risc OS programs provide the facilities to let you
achieve this? Impression? No. TechWriter? No. Ovation? Well the first
one didn't and we'll have to wait and see if the new one will, but I very
much doubt it because none of our typefaces have anything other than a
single, standard size space character.
However, the very wonderful and fabulous TeX provides all these facilities
(and squillions more) and it's free! If you care about the quality of the
typography you produce there is only one choice, TeX. I've said it before
and I'll keep on saying it until the situation improves; we need better
typographical facilities from our mainstream WP/DTP applications.
For a start, the provision of a thin space, or even (don't hold your
breath) a choice of two or three thicknesses of space would go a long way
towards addressing the points under discussion here, and how hard would
that be to implement? However, I have no realistic hope that this will
happen. I know I can tinker with kerning pairs and character widths with a
font editor, but with commercial typefaces that is actually breaking the
licence under which the typefaces were supplied, and hardly represents a
universal solution to the problem.
Sorry to have wandered off the immediate topic (HTML spaces) but as I've
brought it back towards the original topic I started some weeks ago I hope
that folk won't mind too much. Perhaps the thread should be renamed as
'Risc OS Typography'.
a...@pixie.co.za
Darren Salt wrote:
>
> In article <4ltqr5$4...@amaretto.csv.warwick.ac.uk>
> es...@csv.warwick.ac.uk (James Ponder) wrote:
>
> > PS. Nowadays it comes down to personal taste IMHO - we could start a 'one
> > space or two holy wars' alongside the Zap/StrongEd one
>
snipped,
OK, so I came into this debate late and should like to round it off this
way. For us at Justin James Design in SA ...
1. Standard practice should be one space. Too many great typesetters,
authors and authorities (to whit, Tim in Cardiff :@) ) on the subject say
this for us to disagree. This should apply to all typesetting of
magazines, books and any type where beauty of type is paramount (you see,
I'm climbing onto the fence already...)
2. When it comes to punchy body copy in advertisements, we think
that the particular full stop at the time should be considered.
It is not often that there is a new sentence in a paragraph of
body copy (yes, one sentence is usually one paragraph. New
sentence, new paragraph; in magazines as well as ads.) So if a bigger
space looks better than a smaller, we'll use the extra space. But, as
Bruce (JJD Art Director) points out, a sentence end and a new sentence in
a paragraph mean that there is a continuation of an idea and it would be
better, therefore, to allow the idea to run on without visual
interruption. (HOT point THAT!) Further, all of our really hot
competitors in SA (Ogilvy and Mather, Bates, Young and Rubicam, Hunt
Lascaris etc)use one space in their body copy of advertisements.
Thanks, from us at JJD, for getting this thread started.
Justin 4th May 1996 JUSTIN JAMES DESIGN a...@pixie.co.za
poppy
"Paul L. Allen" <p...@sktb.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Why have extra space at all? To make the ends of sentences a little more
>obvious, especially when you might have an abbr. in the mid. of sentences.
>Why not have two spaces in typeset material? Because it can lead to
>unpleasant `rivers' of white space in paragraphs.
[snip]
>> But why do browsers all ignore the double space after a full-stop
>
>Because the spec says that the browser should collapse multiple spaces
>to a single space. This allows you to lay out the source however you
>find convenient. Even
>like
>this if
>you so
>wish. It also means that if you *accidentally* insert some extra spaces in
>the source it won't make the output look bad.
Thankyou for this. Some very interesting points that I hadn't thought of -
I was basing my thoughts on an old habit retained from schooldays... I had
completely overlooked the point of *more than one* space being added - in
fact I have seen some web pages before tables were invented, which used <PRE>
for all the text so as to add space between graphics. Of course it looked
horrid, and the graphics didn't line up because the space inserted was of a
different size depending on the browser viewing it...
Thanks for your replies...
poppy. :)