Re: Operating systems at war?
John Cartmell
VinceH <sp...@softrock.co.uk> wrote:
> you are the one making the claims in the here
I'm actually asking for answers. Any more is incidental and asking for a
detailed explanation of a comment said in passing is asking too much. Sorry.
--
John Cartmell jo...@finnybank.com 0845 006 8822 or 0161 969 9820
Qercus magazine FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527 www.qercus.com
Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
John M Ward
John Cartmell <jo...@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <4f985b3...@softrock.co.uk>,
> VinceH <sp...@softrock.co.uk> wrote:
> > you are the one making the claims in the here
"...and now"
> I'm actually asking for answers. Any more is incidental and asking
> for a detailed explanation of a comment said in passing is asking too
> much. Sorry.
I never saw the start of this, but the subject sounds intriguing. I
might suggest Jack Nicolson's approach as the US President in "Mars
Attacks" -- 'Why can't we all just get along?"
--
John Ward in Medway, Kent - using RISC OS since 1987
Now using an Iyonix, an A9home, 2 RiscPCs and Virtual-RPC!
Acorn/RISC OS web page: www.john-ward.org.uk/personal/john/computers
VinceH
John M Ward <jo...@acornusers.org> wrote:
> In article <4f98a2f...@cartmell.demon.co.uk>,
> John Cartmell <jo...@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > In article <4f985b3...@softrock.co.uk>,
> > VinceH <sp...@softrock.co.uk> wrote:
> > > you are the one making the claims in the here
> "...and now"
That would indeed be what I actually said.
> > I'm actually asking for answers. Any more is incidental and
> > asking for a detailed explanation of a comment said in passing is
> > asking too much. Sorry.
AFAIAC, all this means is that you don't have a valid justification
for your claims, only the foolish and blinkered opinion that "RISC OS
doesn't do it, so it's rubbish".
> I never saw the start of this, but the subject sounds intriguing. I
> might suggest Jack Nicolson's approach as the US President in "Mars
> Attacks" -- 'Why can't we all just get along?"
I think in this case his approach in The Shining is probably more
appropriate.
--
VinceH
John Cartmell
David Boddie <da...@boddie.org.uk> wrote:
> On Tuesday 06 May 2008 01:38, John Cartmell wrote:
> > In article <fvo1v1$ak5$1...@news.get.no>,
> > David Boddie <da...@boddie.org.uk> wrote:
> >> How about this? It can export charts as SVG, apparently:
> >
> >> http://soft.proindependent.com/qtiplot.html
> >
> > Great!
> > And every Windows machine can import the output?
> Yes, every machine can import the output.
So there is software on every 10 year old Windows machine that will view and
edit SVG files just as there is software on every 10 year old RISC OS machine
that will view and edit Drawfile files?
[Snip]
> > OK. Interesting fact as a piece of thread drift - but not an answer to the
> > question.
> The link I posted isn't about teaching programming to 11-14 year olds, it's
> about pursuing the goal of teaching programming to everyone. There are
> groups of people teaching programming to people of all ages, including "high
> school" children, in various countries. I would have thought you would
> realise that you share a common goal with them.
As I said - useful thread drift. The starting point was with the general
education of all pupils of that age ie the age in the UK which all kids take a
common curriculum before specialisation.
> P.S. Apologies to newsgroup regulars for the diversion. Follow-ups set
> appropriately.
I drop out here. Whilst I want to advertise RISC OS I've no interest in the
cross-arguments of advocacy newsgroup style.
--
John
druck
> I drop out here. Whilst I want to advertise RISC OS I've no interest in the
> cross-arguments of advocacy newsgroup style.
You seem to have failed to have noticed that you are the main
proponent of this, having posted every other message in the csa.misc
thread.
---druck
--
The ARM Club Free Software - http://www.armclub.org.uk/free/
The 32bit Conversions Page - http://www.quantumsoft.co.uk/druck/
David Boddie
> In article <fvqbkr$3kj$1...@news.get.no>,
> David Boddie <da...@boddie.org.uk> wrote:
>> On Tuesday 06 May 2008 01:38, John Cartmell wrote:
>> > In article <fvo1v1$ak5$1...@news.get.no>,
>> > David Boddie <da...@boddie.org.uk> wrote:
>
>> >> How about this? It can export charts as SVG, apparently:
>> >
>> >> http://soft.proindependent.com/qtiplot.html
>> >
>> > Great!
>> > And every Windows machine can import the output?
>
>> Yes, every machine can import the output.
>
> So there is software on every 10 year old Windows machine that will view
> and edit SVG files just as there is software on every 10 year old RISC OS
> machine that will view and edit Drawfile files?
Keep moving the goalposts. You wrote <4f995d3...@cartmell.demon.co.uk>:
If you buy or download free a RISC OS application that produces graphics
then you can be sure they will be in the drawfile format. The Windows
equivalent will likely be in bitmapped format.
> As I said - useful thread drift. The starting point was with the general
> education of all pupils of that age ie the age in the UK which all kids
> take a common curriculum before specialisation.
Well I'm sure the king of thread drift knows it when he sees it, especially
since he started the thread - about an article in PC Advisor, no less - no
sign of UK secondary education at that point.
Anyway, Tony made an an ambitious statement which could have been discussed
sensibly <20080502222...@tiber.realh.co.uk>:
BASIC is really not a worthwhile educational exercise, not even for
general programming principles. It teaches bad habits.
And you responded by attacking languages he didn't even mention
<4f995d3...@cartmell.demon.co.uk>:
It can teach bad habits if it's taught badly. If you're talking about
teaching C/C++/Python to all secondary school kids then I'd say that
you're stark, staring nuts. But can I watch you try!
Of course, I made the mistake of trying to turn your negative rhetoric
around by referring you to a place where people discuss these issues and
talk about their experiences, but apparently I was supposed to be playing
some kind of point-scoring debating game in which you endlessly move the
goalposts.
Am I *sure* that I wanted to make the point that people posting on that
list are working with the education of *all* 11-14 year olds? Well, that
implies that I intended to make that point, which I didn't. Was I sure
that the people using that list were working on curriculum level education?
Well, although I knew that some people teach self-selected groups of
children in extra-curricular activities, I was fairly certain that others
are involved in curriculum planning. If you actually follow any of the links
I posted, you'll find more information about that.
If that makes it less relevant for you then that's a shame. It's also a
shame that you prefer to respond with condescension when someone makes a
sincere effort to help you broaden your horizons. Feel free to chalk up
some extra points on your personal tally for that if it makes you feel
better.
>> P.S. Apologies to newsgroup regulars for the diversion. Follow-ups set
>> appropriately.
>
> I drop out here. Whilst I want to advertise RISC OS I've no interest in
> the cross-arguments of advocacy newsgroup style.
Well, it's the only place where we can discuss these things without annoying
people who want to focus on addressing issues with RISC OS, as opposed to
many of the short attention span regulars on the ever-shrinking shoreline
of Daily Mail Island.
David
Chika
wrote:
> Anyway, Tony made an an ambitious statement which could have been
> discussed sensibly <20080502222...@tiber.realh.co.uk>:
> BASIC is really not a worthwhile educational exercise, not even for
> general programming principles. It teaches bad habits.
> And you responded by attacking languages he didn't even mention
> <4f995d3...@cartmell.demon.co.uk>:
> It can teach bad habits if it's taught badly. If you're talking about
> teaching C/C++/Python to all secondary school kids then I'd say that
> you're stark, staring nuts. But can I watch you try!
I think he was referring to the use of structure in programming, which is
something that is very easy to lose sight of in any given BASIC dialect
because of the potential for the misuse of such statements as GOTO or
GOSUB.
In BASIC, the use of structure is often more a matter of self control
rather than imposed syntax, which is what you have in C/C++/Python and
many other languages of the type but, as I found out many years ago when I
first started learning my craft using Pascal, structured programming in a
language in which structure is a requirement can be difficult to pick up.
John might be underestimating the youth of today as far as that goes, but
I agree that BASIC is certainly easier to learn (and to teach). BBC BASIC
does go some way to address this, but it suffers just as badly since the
structure it is capable of can simply be ignored.
--
//\ // Chika <miyuki><at><crashnet><org><uk>
// \// Mitsuo... Menda... naha naha...
... (Ice rocks hit the hull) Captain, we are being hailed.
Wolfgang Grafen
> In BASIC, the use of structure is often more a matter of self control
> rather than imposed syntax, which is what you have in C/C++/Python and
> many other languages of the type but, as I found out many years ago when I
> first started learning my craft using Pascal, structured programming in a
> language in which structure is a requirement can be difficult to pick up.
>
> John might be underestimating the youth of today as far as that goes, but
> I agree that BASIC is certainly easier to learn (and to teach). BBC BASIC
> does go some way to address this, but it suffers just as badly since the
> structure it is capable of can simply be ignored.
What is wrong with Python? IMO it is much more easy to learn and apply than
Basic and most if not all other languages. When it comes to efficiency
BBC basic and integrated assembler on RiscOS probably beats Python, but
as a general language AND for studying advanced programming techniques
like object oriented programming it is hard to beat Python. To learn
Python basics is only a matter of days btw. There is no Python dialect,
once available it will run on all operating systems with the same
command set and most libraries. For self education my best advice is
learn Python, is is doable even for a child. And there are a lot of
reasons for this, the most important are
- you become much more efficient
- debugging is a piece of cake
- you can use Python also in a professional environment
- there are a lot of libraries available for free
etc
Best regards
Wolfgang
For more information about Python see
http://www.python.org
Chika
<wolfgan...@ericsson.com> wrote:
> Chika schrieb:
> > In BASIC, the use of structure is often more a matter of self control
> > rather than imposed syntax, which is what you have in C/C++/Python and
> > many other languages of the type but, as I found out many years ago
> > when I first started learning my craft using Pascal, structured
> > programming in a language in which structure is a requirement can be
> > difficult to pick up.
> >
> > John might be underestimating the youth of today as far as that goes,
> > but I agree that BASIC is certainly easier to learn (and to teach).
> > BBC BASIC does go some way to address this, but it suffers just as
> > badly since the structure it is capable of can simply be ignored.
> What is wrong with Python? IMO it is much more easy to learn and apply
> than Basic and most if not all other languages.
There's nothing wrong with Python. As a structured language, it does its
job. Read back what I said, however. I said that it wasn't as easy to
teach as something like BASIC, and I stand by that. That doesn't mean that
there is anything wrong with it.
> When it comes to efficiency BBC basic and integrated assembler on RiscOS
> probably beats Python, but as a general language AND for studying
> advanced programming techniques like object oriented programming it is
> hard to beat Python. To learn Python basics is only a matter of days
> btw.
But that's the point. "Advanced programming techniques" implies that the
student already has some knowledge of programming. Try and explain OO
structure to a newb and all you will get is blank mode.
BASIC's biggest strength is that you can teach it to pretty much anybody
regardless of prior study, which is why it has been used in a number of
situations (for example, it found niches in the television industry purely
because it was easy for any amateur to write something useful). It's
strength, however, is also its weakness as I explained before, which is
why, ultimately, BASIC is not as efficient as a language such as Python,
or any of the other named languages for that matter.
> There is no Python dialect, once available it will run on all
> operating systems with the same command set and most libraries. For self
> education my best advice is learn Python, is is doable even for a child.
> And there are a lot of reasons for this, the most important are - you
> become much more efficient - debugging is a piece of cake - you can use
> Python also in a professional environment - there are a lot of libraries
> available for free etc
The problem is that you are almost certainly writing from the POV of
somebody with programming experience. Once you understand the principles
of programming, it is relatively easy to switch into any given language
but teaching somebody with no programming background isn't so easy.
--
//\ // Chika <miyuki><at><crashnet><org><uk>
// \// Mitsuo... Menda... naha naha...
... See that snail, That's your clock speed that is.
Wolfgang Grafen
least as easy as BASIC and hides all advanced features completely from a
beginner. Agreed, for a complete knowledge of all features you will have
to learn more, but for all what Basic offers Python should be more both
to learn and write.
In Python
- you don't have to declare variables in advance
- There are no goto statements
- There are no global variables unless you declare them
- immediate feedback through interactive Python shell
- live evaluation of your program status and objects without need of a
debugger (but there are free debuggers for Python)
- Only one Python language, no dialects or commercially modified syntaxes
A oneliner:
-----------
print "hello"
A calculation:
--------------
print 12*3
A function call:
----------------
def my_function(a, b):
print a*b
print my_function(12, 3)
or
print my_function(b=3, a=12)
Working with a dictionary:
my_dictionary = {
"car" : "Auto",
"bicycle" : "Fahrrad"
}
print "'Auto' translated to English is %s" % my_dictionary["car"]
print my_dictionary
for element in my_dictionary:
print element
Working with an array:
----------------------
my_array=[2, 'hello', my_function, my_dictionary]
print my_array
for element in my_array:
print element
FileIO:
-------
to write:
fp = open("myfile.txt", 'w')
to read:
fp = open("myfile.txt")
I think these few lines cover the Basic syntax as far I remember but I
have to admit I only had very little experience with Basic. I already
introduced the dictionary where I believe there is no equivalent in
basic BASIC. You can do a lot with the statements above, it is almost
all you have to know. FileIO is more easy than most other languages and
a lot more easy than Basic.
I am very sure, Python is significant more easy than Basic for the same
features (limited by Basic), and once you need you will have the
complete toolbox somebody can expect from an advanced and modern
language. It is also possible to program interactively in the python
shell and get back immediate response, extremely helpful for beginners.
Just give Python a chance, it is really very very easy and very suitable
for all kinds of beginners, from kid to professionals.
Best regards
Wolfgang
John M Ward
Wolfgang Grafen <wolfgan...@ericsson.com> wrote, in part:
> In Python
> - you don't have to declare variables in advance
Neither does BASIC -- at least BBC BASIC doesn't.
> - There are no goto statements
> - There are no global variables unless you declare them
That seems to contradict the first statement.
> - immediate feedback through interactive Python shell
I didn't know a Python had a shell :-)
> - live evaluation of your program status and objects without need of a
> debugger (but there are free debuggers for Python)
> - Only one Python language, no dialects or commercially modified
> syntaxes
Our Pontus Lurcuck was promoting Python a few years ago, and put a good
case for it, so it does sound interesting (although I am not a serious
programmer myself, and am very happy with BBC BASIC, with which I am
familiar to an extent). I think having both available is a bonus, and
am happy to leave it at that.
Chika
> Wolfgang Grafen <wolfgan...@ericsson.com> wrote, in part:
> > In Python
> > - you don't have to declare variables in advance
> Neither does BASIC -- at least BBC BASIC doesn't.
It doesn't and it does. There isn't a specific statement as such that you
use to declare a variable but, if you use a variable that hasn't been set
up previously by a LET statement, you will get an error (except if you use
internal variables). You don't get this in all dialects of BASIC, though.
BBC BASIC, however, does have the facility to declare local variables in
procedures and functions, something I can't ever recall seeing anywhere
else (although I can only recall seeing functions in one other dialect;
DEC's BASIC Plus).
> > - There are no goto statements
> > - There are no global variables unless you declare them
> That seems to contradict the first statement.
You're right. Wonder if he meant that?
> > - immediate feedback through interactive Python shell
> I didn't know a Python had a shell :-)
Heh! ;)
> > - live evaluation of your program status and objects without need of a
> > debugger (but there are free debuggers for Python)
> > - Only one Python language, no dialects or commercially modified
> > syntaxes
> Our Pontus Lurcuck was promoting Python a few years ago, and put a good
> case for it, so it does sound interesting (although I am not a serious
> programmer myself, and am very happy with BBC BASIC, with which I am
> familiar to an extent). I think having both available is a bonus, and
> am happy to leave it at that.
I must admit to having Python lurking around on one machine. It seems a
bit flaky, though I suspect that the version I have might be the cause of
this.
--
//\ // Chika <miyuki><at><crashnet><org><uk>
// \// Mitsuo... Menda... naha naha...
... When God endowed man with brains, he did not intend to guarantee them.
David Boddie
> In article <4f9bda6...@acornusers.org>,
> John M Ward <jo...@acornusers.org> wrote:
>> In article <fvspva$qkg$1...@news.al.sw.ericsson.se>,
>> Wolfgang Grafen <wolfgan...@ericsson.com> wrote, in part:
>> > - There are no goto statements
>> > - There are no global variables unless you declare them
>
>> That seems to contradict the first statement.
>
> You're right. Wonder if he meant that?
I think Wolfgang meant that you need to explicitly declare variables
as global if you are creating them for the global scope from within
a local scope. (This may be necessary sometimes, but isn't really
good practice.)
def my_function(a, b, c):
global d
d = a * b * c
In this contrived example, calling the my_function() function with
values for a, b and c results in the d variable being defined in the
global scope.
> I must admit to having Python lurking around on one machine. It seems a
> bit flaky, though I suspect that the version I have might be the cause of
> this.
Which version are you using? I think the last version I used on RISC OS
was Python 2.1, which was pretty stable. I noticed that the latest port
is a beta version of Python 2.4.1.
David
Wolfgang Grafen
> In article <fvspva$qkg$1...@news.al.sw.ericsson.se>,
> Wolfgang Grafen <wolfgan...@ericsson.com> wrote, in part:
>> In Python
>> - you don't have to declare variables in advance
>
> Neither does BASIC -- at least BBC BASIC doesn't.
>
>> - There are no goto statements
>> - There are no global variables unless you declare them
>
> That seems to contradict the first statement.
>
>> - immediate feedback through interactive Python shell
>
> I didn't know a Python had a shell :-)
>
>> - live evaluation of your program status and objects without need of a
>> debugger (but there are free debuggers for Python)
>> - Only one Python language, no dialects or commercially modified
>> syntaxes
>
> Our Pontus Lurcuck was promoting Python a few years ago, and put a good
> case for it, so it does sound interesting (although I am not a serious
> programmer myself, and am very happy with BBC BASIC, with which I am
> familiar to an extent). I think having both available is a bonus, and
> am happy to leave it at that.
>
RiscOS BBC basic is a cult and it is speedy, too. Old memories, I would
much prefer RiscOS even to the Mac I use now privately, for my job I am
on Solaris and Red Hat Linux. On Mac and Linux Python is now installed
by default, contrary to Basic.
What I wanted point out is that in my opinion for a kid or all other
beginners it is much more benefit to learn Python. Python is more easy
than Basic for what Basic does, and can accompany you to the highest
levels. I don't use Python privately, but for my business job I do
pretty cool things with it. No fancy programming, but comprehensive
coding and fantastic results. David mentioned that version 2.1 works
pretty stable on RiscOS, and as I do rapid scripting I don't need more
personally.
Python uses more resources and processor power than Basic which was
developped at a time with low computer power. On my RPC600 Python is not
very fast, but on todays machines it is more than fast enough.
Here we use Lua when embedded processor resources are limited. Its
syntax is very close to Python, and Python is not very far from C's
syntax. In a professional environment Basic was buried more than 10
years ago when it still was used to control measurement devices. For
tool control TCL is very popular, Perl looses against Python year by
year, now Python topping Perl with 28% to 17% according to the Linux Journal
http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/10065
I don't have a good feeling recommending Basic to Kids. Of course, the
first steps might be easy with VisualBasic, but it stops where the real
art of programming begins. It is important IMO to teach kids what could
motivate them to dig deeper and lead them to acquire a job. Python can
substitute Basic for its easyness and more.
Don't get me wrong, the knowledge of Python alone will not make a kid
good money. But programming technology moved a lot away from Basic, C is
difficult to learn at home, C++ and Java almost impossible. IMO Python
is the answer, and there is a long way to go from a beginner to a
programming expert, Basic stops somewhere inbetween, Python has been a
joy for me since 10 years, although I am not a programming expert :)
Best regards
Wolfgang
Chika
wrote:
> > I must admit to having Python lurking around on one machine. It seems
> > a bit flaky, though I suspect that the version I have might be the
> > cause of this.
> Which version are you using? I think the last version I used on RISC OS
> was Python 2.1, which was pretty stable. I noticed that the latest port
> is a beta version of Python 2.4.1.
The version I have to hand identifies itself as Python 2.2, and it has
been there for a while now, so chances are that it needs an update or
three.
--
//\ // Chika <miyuki><at><crashnet><org><uk>
// \// Mitsuo... Menda... naha naha...
... Two most common elements in the universe: Hydrogen & Stupidity.