How to tell which sheetfed presses are best?
DK
various kinds of sheetfed presses, assuming the press operators and
everything else is equal?
I've been getting various bids on some projects from different printers, and
they all use different sizes and brands of presses. Most use direct-to-plate
systems.
Assuming everything else is equal (press operator, prepress process, etc.),
how can you tell which presses have better print quality than others? For
instance, I know that larger presses generally have better print quality
than smaller presses. And I always ask what line screen the presses print
at, and I know the higher the line screen, the better the press, in general.
But what's the best way to know which presses are generally better than
others? Should you go by line screen? Or isn't line screen important as long
as they are using direct to plate systems? Should you go by press size?
I'm used to printing longer run 4 color projects on a large press with 175
line screen. But now I'm getting bids for some shorter run 2-color and
4-color projects and the best prices are coming from printshops that use
smaller presses and only a 150 line screen.
To make matters more confusing, some printshops will criticize other
printshop's presses as being "nothing more than a duplicator on steroids"
(they were describing a Heidelberg DI) and brag that their presses are "real
presses, not the kind that the insty-prints shops use."
Other printshops that use smaller presses (i.e., a Qucikmaster) and a 150
line screen swear that they do high-quality work and that using
direct-to-plate press systems is a better predictor of print quality than
line screen.
So how can a layman tell which printshop's presses are better and can be
expected to produce better print quality? Any advice would be appreciated!!
--
DK
Dave Balderstone
> Assuming everything else is equal (press operator, prepress process, etc.),
> how can you tell which presses have better print quality than others?
Get samples of the work coming off them and compare.
Why would you send a printer work without looking at examples of what
they're capable of?
--
"The thing about saying the wrong words is that A, I don't notice it, and B,
sometimes orange water gibbon bucket and plastic." -- Mr. Burrows
DK
size and specs of different presses and know which ones are likely the
better quality ones, and which ones aren't?
--
DK
"Dave Balderstone" <dave@N_O_T_T_H_I_S.balderstone.ca> wrote in message
news:140220051245597171%dave@N_O_T_T_H_I_S.balderstone.ca...
Dave Balderstone
> But besides that, how can you look at the
> size and specs of different presses and know which ones are likely the
> better quality ones, and which ones aren't?
IMO, it doesn't matter. All that really matters is the quality of the
work coming off them and the price being charged.
If you were buying a press, it's a different matter.
But some of the "better" names would be Heidelberg, MAN Roland, KBA,
Komori, Mitsibishi...
ML
> What's the best way for a printshop customer to compare print quality of
> various kinds of sheetfed presses, assuming the press operators and
> everything else is equal?
The operator has a LOT to do with the quality. More so than what type of
press - within comparative equipment and presuming it's kept in proper
running condition.
I once ran a press that the owners wouldn't repair (eventually they did,
after a lot of wasted time & paper). You can't do much if you can't control
the water etc . . .
Find a place that you are happy with and can depend on. Just like a plumber
or auto mechanic.
Keith.
Mac Townsend
and the standards/proccedures of the shop.
Ignore the presses and concentrate on what the shop can produce.
DK
"Mac Townsend" <mac...@spamadcomgraphics.com> wrote in message
news:20050214133...@news.dslextreme.com...
> the presses are far more equal than the skills of the press operatoprs
> and the standards/proccedures of the shop.
>
> Ignore the presses and concentrate on what the shop can produce.
That's good to hear. When you talk to different printshop sales people, many
would have you believe that some of their competitors have small "insty
prints" presses that could never give you the quality that you're looking
for.
Is there any way to tell the high-quality short run printshops from the
lower quality ones? From what everyone is saying here, you can't tell by
looking at the types of presses they have. And even the bad printshops can
come up with a handful of samples that look nice, which is why it's hard to
judge a printshop by its samples.
--
DK
Dave Balderstone
> "Mac Townsend" <mac...@spamadcomgraphics.com> wrote in message
> news:20050214133...@news.dslextreme.com...
> > the presses are far more equal than the skills of the press operatoprs
> > and the standards/proccedures of the shop.
> >
> > Ignore the presses and concentrate on what the shop can produce.
>
> That's good to hear. When you talk to different printshop sales people, many
> would have you believe that some of their competitors have small "insty
> prints" presses that could never give you the quality that you're looking
> for.
That depends on what quality you're looking for. ;-)
Good, fast, cheap... pick two.
I knew a fellow years back that had a small AB Dick two color press
that could produce fantastic four color work. He was competing on
price, so turnaround wasn't fast.
There are printers here that can produce fantastic work on very short
notice... but we pay more.
> Is there any way to tell the high-quality short run printshops from the
> lower quality ones? From what everyone is saying here, you can't tell by
> looking at the types of presses they have. And even the bad printshops can
> come up with a handful of samples that look nice, which is why it's hard to
> judge a printshop by its samples.
I start with samples, and whatever word of mouth I can get from others
in the industry. Then I work on a three-strike rule.
Three problems and you're off my supplier list. The only exception is
the web printer who does our newspaper, but we have a contract that
defines quality standards. Even so, they've screwed up non-newspaper,
time sensitive printing three times (only the newspaper is under the
contract) and I've informed them that they aren't getting anything time
sensitive if it gooes on their sheet-fed presses.
Any print shop can have a bad day, even two. Three's my limit.
djb
Lee Blevins
> What's the best way for a printshop customer to compare print quality of
> various kinds of sheetfed presses, assuming the press operators and
> everything else is equal?
>
Here's a stab at the press food chain...
1. Portrait Feed Tabliod Press w/T Head
2. Landscape Feed Tabloid Press wT Head (does this exist?)
3. Landscape Feed Tabloid True Two Color
4. 25" - 28" (4 UP) 4 Color Press
5. 25" - 28" 6 Color Press
6. 25" - 28" 8 Color Press
7. Items 5 and 6 with a coater
8. 38" - 40" (8 UP) 4 Color Press
9. 38" - 40" (8 UP) More than 4 with a coater
and on an on...
So it kind of breaks down to duplicators, 4 UPs and 8 UPs.
_arrooke
> Here's a stab at the press food chain...
>
> 1. Portrait Feed Tabliod Press w/T Head
> 2. Landscape Feed Tabloid Press wT Head (does this exist?)
It does (or used to). I used to run an AB Dick 385 with a t-head years ago.
The 385 isn't manufactured anymore. It was 17 x 22 landscape. I recall (with
nightmares) a 4 colour letterhead I used to run 2 up. It had 3 colour bars
which ran the width of the sheet (22"). If you could run those things (and
stay sane), you could run anything!
In my opinion a (Townsend) 'T Head' is the absolute worst piece of shit that
was ever put onto a press. They are guaranteed to slip out of registration.
Water control went from nightmarish to non-existant. They couldn't carry
enough ink. And if you did get them running, the water lack of control was
sure to fuck things up before too long.
What is absolutely mind boggling however, was not the general worthlessness
of these things - along with 'spring loaded' presses/duplicators such as AB
Dicks, and the even worse (believe it or not), Toko etc. It was that
people/shops would remain committed and repeated buyers of these piles of
shit. They would have no end of repairs & service problems coupled with
total lack of quality; and yet they would go out and buy another one exactly
the same!!!
There were far superior alternatives; such as Hamada & Ryobi for small size.
They worked off single blanket but the colour unit was made for the
particular press by the same company that manufacured the press. They were
far more solid. And didn't use spring mechanism. Not to mention a water
system that wasn't perfect, but at least you stood a fighting chance.
Of course it doesn't help that 'know nothings' own shops and hire 'know
lesses' off the street and give them no training.
The instant print shops of a number of years ago - forerunners to today's
copy shops - are responsible for the near absolute ruin, of what once was a
worthwhile and rewarding trade here in North America.
> 3. Landscape Feed Tabloid True Two Color
Once again; Hamada, Ryobi, lead the pack here. There is the Heidleberg GTO
which is second to none so far as small presses, but also comes with a price
tag which almost boosts it to the larger press catagory.
> 4. 25" - 28" (4 UP) 4 Color Press
> 5. 25" - 28" 6 Color Press
> 6. 25" - 28" 8 Color Press
> 7. Items 5 and 6 with a coater
> 8. 38" - 40" (8 UP) 4 Color Press
> 9. 38" - 40" (8 UP) More than 4 with a coater
Most of this equipment is decent. Except maybe the Adast. You get what you
pay for. You still need a good operator.
> and on an on...
>
> So it kind of breaks down to duplicators, 4 UPs and 8 UPs.
Good way of breaking them down - size wise.
It's still trial by error until you find people you can half assed trust.
Generally, if you have a lot of printing, you will deal with 3 or 4 places.
I would suggest that unless you get very lucky, the small shop - for your
general stationery such as bus. cards, letterhead, small runs - will be the
most difficult to find.
Oh yeah. If you think digital copiers will solve a lot of operator/press
issues on small jobs, think again. Chances are OK that the actual printing
will be fine. But don't forget they still may have to; 1) Position
(especially duplex jobs); 2) Trim (I've had major problems here. Even with
crop marks); 3) Fold etc.
Even with black & white copies, chances are if you have a screened area it
will be run at whatever the default setting is. Usually 65 or 85 line. Most
black digital copiers can run out 100 or 133 line which look much better.
Good luck explaining screen values to the copy shop operators.
Keith.
Michael Sullivan
How bad are these problems?
We operate in a time sensitive sheetfed business (trade stationery), and
have a ~1% reprint rate, with about a third of those reprints due to
press or bindery problems (we do prepress/type/art and no proofs for 80%
of our stuff). I'm given to understand that very few of our competitors
do even that well. For pickier customers, the press rate is clearly
higher than that, maybe approaching 1%. I don't think that's a huge
problem, and most of our customers don't either -- we get issues only
with those who have unluckily gotten higher than average rates over some
time period. In this business, a large dealer does a job a day or
more, so even at good rates of reprint, it doesn't take long to have 3
errors.
The variance is such that some large customers go 2-3 years between
reprints, and others experience 3-4% rates for extended time. I run a
report every month by month/year and figure that anyone who has had at
least 2 reprints and a rate higher than 3% either for the month or the
year is a potential problem, and mark their stuff for an extra quality
check.
I'm glad all of our customers don't use your standards to judge. But
I'm pretty sure that if they did, they'd eventually run out of
suppliers. I don't think anybody can meet that three strikes standard
for a long time, unless the jobs are so few and far between enough that
it takes many years to have a thousand jobs.
I'd set your standard not to three strikes, you're out, but to look at
the percentage when you get that third problem job. Is it >5%? You're
almost certainly right to look elsewhere. But if you've sent them 3-400
jobs in that time and they've had problems on 3 -- unless they hassle
you about fixing them, I don't think that's an indication of a shop with
big quality problems.
Is there anybody out there who tracks reprints that does significantly
better than 2-3% for *every* reasonable customer?
Michael
Dave Balderstone
<mic...@bcect.com> wrote:
> I'd set your standard not to three strikes, you're out, but to look at
> the percentage when you get that third problem job. Is it >5%? You're
> almost certainly right to look elsewhere. But if you've sent them 3-400
> jobs in that time and they've had problems on 3 -- unless they hassle
> you about fixing them, I don't think that's an indication of a shop with
> big quality problems.
I don't mean three strikes *ever*. I mean three strikes in a relatively
short period of time (1 year or less). I also mean errors that render
the job unusable or do damage to my business, not minor nitpicks.
One printer we use does decent work at a good price, but the last three
time sensitive jods (where the work absolutely *had* to be done by a
certain date), they screwed up. I'll still use them for less critical
work, but they aren't getting our large mailout campaigns any more. Too
bad for them, as we're sending them the 1,000 - 5,000 piece orders
rather than the 1,000,000 piece orders (6 - 8 pieces at a 150,000 run,
insertion and mail prep).
Another example goes back several years to a particular web printer (a
place I worked at 11 years ago) who were printing small magazine pieces
for us (32 - 48 pages, 50 - 80 thouseand run). We had real problems
with color consistency through the run with them. The third time, I
flew out to visit them and had my rep bring me the copies they were
pulling during the run (about every 5,000). The cover color was
different on every single one of more than 15 pulls.
A third is a local web printer who we were using for fast turnaround
work. They had a three-knife cutter that was a piece of crap and we
finally realized they weren't going to repair or replace it. I don't
care for trapezoidal magazines, so we pulled our work from them.
In your specialty area, we run our letterhead in 20,000 piece batches
annually. Only once in 10 years have we had to demand a reprint
(registration problem).
And I have no shortage of suppliers. Since Christmas I've had three web
printers and one sheetfed printer/mailing house cold-call me to solicit
business.
Hopefully that clarifies the approach I take with print vendors.
Jedd Haas
> What's the best way for a printshop customer to compare print quality of
> various kinds of sheetfed presses, assuming the press operators and
> everything else is equal?
As others have pointed out, the press operators are never equal. Go around
to each of these printers. Take a walk through their shop. Take note of
what you see. Get samples of recent jobs. Pick up some press sheets of
whatever they're running at the moment. Then talk to some of their clients
and anyone else you know who gets jobs printed.
What you'll find is that most printers specialize in certain areas. You
may hear, of course, from each and every printer, that they can print any
job. Is this true? Of course not. They'll job out something that they
can't do in-house and never tell you.
I could write a bunch more, but that should get you started.
--
Jedd Haas - Artist
http://www.gallerytungsten.com
http://www.epsno.com
Tim Monk
> "DK" wrote:
>
>> What's the best way for a printshop customer to compare print quality of
>> various kinds of sheetfed presses, assuming the press operators and
>> everything else is equal?
>
> As others have pointed out, the press operators are never equal. Go around
> to each of these printers. Take a walk through their shop. Take note of
> what you see. Get samples of recent jobs. Pick up some press sheets of
> whatever they're running at the moment. Then talk to some of their clients
> and anyone else you know who gets jobs printed.
I couldn't agree more. If I were a print buyer, I wouldn't buy one job from
any shop I've never at least visited. Unless it was just a quick-copy kind
of job. :)
> What you'll find is that most printers specialize in certain areas. You
> may hear, of course, from each and every printer, that they can print any
> job. Is this true? Of course not. They'll job out something that they
> can't do in-house and never tell you.
I wouldn't count on dishonesty as a default in any industry other than
government. Unless, of course, you're dealing with an SFUP--I wouldn't know.
While it might be true that most printers specialize in certain areas, I
don't think it's fair to say that most will deceive their customers by
default. Unless, of course, you're dealing with an SFUP--I wouldn't know.
Do you honestly believe a printer wants to deal with jobs they have to "job
out?" A smart printer wants to work with jobs that fit their shop. There's
no reason to deceive your customer. Only promise what you can produce. :)
I think that while the OP visits the pressrooms he's considering using, he
should meet the press operators, prepress, bindery and anyone else who might
be touching his job. This is a good way to get a feel for the customer
service he should expect. That's what I'd do, anyway, if I were buying
print.
> I could write a bunch more, but that should get you started.
I'd be interested in hearing more of your thoughts. Feel free to share them.
Tim
Neil Gould
> "Jedd Haas" wrote:
>> What you'll find is that most printers specialize in certain areas.
>> You may hear, of course, from each and every printer, that they can
>> print any job. Is this true? Of course not. They'll job out
>> something that they can't do in-house and never tell you.
>
> I wouldn't count on dishonesty as a default in any industry other than
> government. Unless, of course, you're dealing with an SFUP--I
> wouldn't know.
>
I don't think it's a matter of dishonesty... it's just a reality of the
business. The city I live in is a "printers town". There are more printers
per square mile than most places I've been. There are several binderies,
several specialty services for printers, etc. Even the major shops don't
try to duplicate all of these services in-house... it just isn't
efficient, and there is no benefit to the customer to maintain the
equipment or the operators for marginal usages. In fact, the customer
benefits by having specialty needs farmed out, because the product is
better and the pricing is lower than it would be otherwise. The customers
don't have to be experts in all of the areas that affect their product;
it's a service that the print shop provides "transparently".
Regards,
--
Neil Gould
--------------------------------------
Terra Tu AV - www.terratu.com
Technical Graphics & Media
Jedd Haas
<ne...@myplaceofwork.com> wrote:
> Recently, Tim Monk <tm...@austin.rr.com> posted:
>
> > "Jedd Haas" wrote:
> >> What you'll find is that most printers specialize in certain areas.
> >> You may hear, of course, from each and every printer, that they can
> >> print any job. Is this true? Of course not. They'll job out
> >> something that they can't do in-house and never tell you.
> >
> > I wouldn't count on dishonesty as a default in any industry other than
> > government. Unless, of course, you're dealing with an SFUP--I
> > wouldn't know.
> >
> I don't think it's a matter of dishonesty... it's just a reality of the
> business.
To append to my previous comments, I agree with Neil: it's not a matter of
dishonesty, it's just business. If you hire a contractor to build a house,
do you care if he uses subs? There's nothing wrong with a printer subbing
something out, my point is that the OP should be aware of the practice.
(Some printers, in fact, only accept jobs "from the trade.") To clarify a
bit more, this happens particularly with specialty operations that are
only part of a job, for example, perfect binding, foil stamping, etc.