getting a job Doing Quark layout
Robert Neilen
Before I ask my question I need to explain where I am comming from.
First off, as to desktop publication, I have taken 2 college courses,
which one of them was for publication and prepress, which only teaches
you how to use Quark, Layout and design, and preparing a print job to
be sent to an offset litho printing press company, though this was
discussed very little. The second course was more into the
communication area as to how important it is making a 30 second
glancer who is looking through a magazine into a 3 minute reader.
Meaning convincing the consumers to buy that magazine or why they must
read joe blow artical.
Now my problem is I haven't yet done a real job, meaning designing and
getting it printed for a customer more say then for a class project. I
am looking to get some expience in this since this is probably where I
will start my graphic design career. Though I do have a question to
about inkjet postscript printing. A lot of todays inkjet postscript
printers are becoming extremly a lot cheaper, but still expensive if
you don't use it's capibilities. Meaning why buy it if this is not
what you are going to do. So what I want to know is, as graphic
desinger point of view, can I build a good portfolio using a inkjet
postscript printer for when I am looking for a job after I graduate?
Also what do you think of using these types of printers as to doing
some small end jobs where a business only needs a few prints here and
there? Do you think I can get away with that, or do you think when I
am looking for a job when they mean exerience they mean besides having
experience in layout and design, but also having experience calling
printer companies and knowing how that specific printer company wants
your art work done. I ask this since all I am tring to do is get some
experience in the real world, yet people nowadays want the cheapest
price, and I can't compete with big companies without wipping the
middle man (the printer company).
I feel like I am in the dark, and yet I have all this knoweldge as to
how to do a layout in Quark, but didn't get into printing. Meaning,
okay you did the layout but did it print correctly? Umm I don't know
we didn't learn that.
George Thomas
Robert Neilen wrote:
> [snip]
> So what I want to know is, as graphic
> desinger point of view, can I build a good portfolio using a inkjet
> postscript printer for when I am looking for a job after I graduate?
Not likely. Interviewers usually want to see finished product. It might
be a different story if you were an illustrator. And you should never,
ever show someone else's work as your own -- you will get caught someday.
> Also what do you think of using these types of printers as to doing
> some small end jobs where a business only needs a few prints here and
> there? Do you think I can get away with that,
No again. In the real world, desktop inkjets are pretty much meant to be
only for rough proofs -- especially when it comes to color.
> or do you think when I
> am looking for a job when they mean exerience they mean besides having
> experience in layout and design, but also having experience calling
> printer companies and knowing how that specific printer company wants
> your art work done.
When they say experience they are saying they want someone who can
produce a job that works whether it is Quark, InDesign, Illustrator,
PhotoShop, etc. Don't even consider working for a printer who indicates
you might be working in Microsoft Publisher -- that's several steps
backward.
> I ask this since all I am tring to do is get some
> experience in the real world, yet people nowadays want the cheapest
> price, and I can't compete with big companies without wipping the
> middle man (the printer company).
Your post is a little confusing. Part of it indicates you are looking for
a job; part of it indicates you are wanting to freelance.
If you're wanting to freelance, aim high; work cheaper at first to get
experience but strive towards that point where you can tell the guy who
always wants the cheapo price to take a hike. They're *never* worth it,
even though they may give you a big come-on about how you're going to be
part of their team, how they're going to treat you like the son they
never had, how they're going to send you a ton of work -- someday. That
someday never comes. When you try to raise the price, they drop you and
go on to the next sucker. They got what they wanted from you -- bigger
profits for them. Those guys are con artists and their lines of bullshit
are endless.
> I feel like I am in the dark, and yet I have all this knoweldge as to
> how to do a layout in Quark, but didn't get into printing.
If you *are* thinking about freelancing, let me suggest that first you
consider working at an entry level job for perhaps two years in either an
ad agency, design studio or a larger print shop. These are really the
only places where you can get the experience you need if you want to
someday be on your own. There are just too many factors involved in
producing a successful print job for an individual with a couple of
courses in desktiop publishing to be able to compete.
When you do get a job, try the following:
1. Find the most experienced desktop person in the company. Become their
best friend at work, even if you really don't care that much for them.
Learn everything you possibly can from them and everyone else around you.
2. Never pretend you already know how to do something if you don't.
Freely admit you don't know and ask for help. Remember, they knew you
were a trainee when they hired you -- they expect you to ask questions.
3. Always listen for information. You might be surprised by how much
peripheral knowledge you can pick up from everyday conversations. All
those little snippets of information add up to the bigger picture.
One thing that I doubt they taught you in the courses is anything to do
with typography because that would be an entire course in itself. This is
an area you should concentrate on learning more about in whatever ways
you can. Poor typography can ruin even the best layout.
Regards,
George Thomas
Derek Tree
Neilen <rneil...@comcast.net> wrote
I am somewhat confused about what it is you wish to know or do?
"Not having done a real job" will severely limit your options in the
real world. The solution is do some "real jobs" to get some "real"
experience. In the short term you may have to work for very low wages or
no wages at all and be prepared to do the work in the evening or at
weekends. This is a very saturated industry and there is no shortage of
good people trying to get into it. To succeed you have to be prepared to
work *long* and *hard*.
Only then will you be of interest to a prospective employer. College
projects are too far removed from the reality of the real world to be of
much use in getting work. I have lost count of the number of "graduates"
I have interviewed for jobs over the years who were totally clueless
about even the most basic fundamentals of colour separation and
commercial printing and took far too long to produce even the simplest
jobs.
As you have discovered, few, if any colleges teach these basics in their
degree courses. Which is pity, because no matter how talented a designer
is, at some point their design must be translated into artwork which
will separate and print correctly on a commercial printing press.
And the only way to learn how to do that is to get a job in the
industry.
As for inkjet printing you seem to be labouring under a few
misapprehensions.
There is a world of difference between the $100 desktop machine your
sister might use to print out birthday invites to her friends and the
large format PS proofing devices used by pre-press bureaux to accurately
proof artwork destined for CTP or press. The limitations of the inkjet
are not its quality which is streets ahead of almost any other printing
technology but its speed (or lack of it) and expense. Printing 100
business cards on an inkjet printer may be economical if they're printed
in four colours and you have a guillotine hanging around to trim them.
Printing 1000 is not.
In other words there is more to printing *COMMERCIALLY* than the base
cost of the printing device. You must factor in the cost of the
consumables (very high with inkjets). The cost of paper (also high with
inkjets). Printing time (very slow), lightfastness and durability of
inks, etc, etc. Not to mention finishing (folding, creasing, stitching,
perforating, laminating, etc, etc).
With few exceptions (Large format posters, very short run colour work)
inkjets are not a viable proposition for commercial printing. At the
bottom end lasers are faster, cheaper and of comparable quality but
don't need special paper to achieve it. In the middle are a variety of
digital devices - mostly laser based, and at the top are printing
presses - sheetfed, web, flexo, etc, etc.
Where inkjets come into their own is for low volume, high quality
proofing and large format display and poster work. For everything else a
colour laser beats them hands down.
I hope that's of some help to you.
Best wishes,
--
Del Tree
Robert Neilen
>
> "Not having done a real job" will severely limit your options in the
> real world. The solution is do some "real jobs" to get some "real"
> experience. In the short term you may have to work for very low wages or
> no wages at all and be prepared to do the work in the evening or at
> weekends. This is a very saturated industry and there is no shortage of
> good people trying to get into it. To succeed you have to be prepared to
> work *long* and *hard*.
>
> Only then will you be of interest to a prospective employer. College
> projects are too far removed from the reality of the real world to be of
> much use in getting work. I have lost count of the number of "graduates"
> I have interviewed for jobs over the years who were totally clueless
> about even the most basic fundamentals of colour separation and
> commercial printing and took far too long to produce even the simplest
> jobs.
>
> As you have discovered, few, if any colleges teach these basics in their
> degree courses. Which is pity, because no matter how talented a designer
> is, at some point their design must be translated into artwork which
> will separate and print correctly on a commercial printing press.
> And the only way to learn how to do that is to get a job in the
> industry.
>
Derek,
I appoligise for confusing you, though you are kind of hitting it
right on the money to what I am tring to say. What I am tring to
explain is that even with taken 2 publication courses at my county
college, they are still far removed from reality. To add on to this,
what I am also saying is I have been looking through the help wanted
ads, and these companies want real work, and not just from what you
did in college, and they also want a portfolio. That is probably what
is confusing you as to what I am also asking. What I am also asking
is, is it really that hard to get in to a job like that? If so, how
do I get in without a portfolio, or doing some jobs myself? Thats
where I was asking about using a postscript inkjet printer and doing
maybe small quantity printing to strengthen my portfolio. Or do you
think it will be easier for me to do the layout myself and to find a
printing press to print it. All in all, what I am looking for is to
work for a company as a layout and graphic designer.
My 3 strongest areas in grqaphic design are as follows in sequential
order...
1. Using Illustrator, especially using the pathfinder, creating masks,
and the blend tool to create follow path gradients.
2. using Photoshop, including doing alpha channels, layer effects, and
color correcting photos with levels, grayscales, and duatones.
3. using Dreamweaver 4, for laying out tables, and frames for web
design.
As to desktop publication...
1. QuarkXpress (layout and design, preparing for 4 color processing,
but didn't do any printing)
2. PageMaker (layout and design only)
3. also had a class project that asked for a flyer which needed to be
done in Illustrator.
Brandons of mass destruction
rneil...@comcast.net (Robert Neilen) wrote:
> If so, how
> do I get in without a portfolio, or doing some jobs myself?
if your school has a newspaper, volunteer there, you'll build a
portfolio, learn a lot and have some experience.
Steven Barton
Robert Neilen wrote:
> . . . do you
> think it will be easier for me to do the layout myself and to find a
> printing press to print it. All in all, what I am looking for is to
> work for a company as a layout and graphic designer.
If your design skills are impressive, they will be evident, even if you
print out copies on a quality desktop inkjet printer. Although your
samples have not actually been published professionally, they still
demonstrate your sense of design.
Build on your strengths. Prepare some dazzling samples of your abilities
working with gradients in Illustrator and in layers in Photoshop. These
will form the beginnings of a portfolio. I would not hesitate showing
inkjet proofs in my portfolio, because I believe my design skills will
be the criteria that a potential design firm will be interested in, not
the subtleties of the finished prints.
Robert Neilen
Thanks for the input guys. This does clear somethings up. Also as to
doing some work with the college newspaper sounds like a great idea.
Many thanks, BOB
Derek Tree
Neilen <rneil...@comcast.net> wrote (snipped some):
>Derek,
>I appoligise for confusing you, though you are kind of hitting it
>right on the money to what I am tring to say. What I am tring to
>explain is that even with taken 2 publication courses at my county
>college, they are still far removed from reality. To add on to this,
>what I am also saying is I have been looking through the help wanted
>ads, and these companies want real work, and not just from what you
>did in college, and they also want a portfolio.
As Steven Barton posted: "If your design skills are impressive, they
will be evident". But not without a portfolio! So, yes, a portfolio is
always a good idea. It should include a variety of work to demonstrate:
imagination, originality, typography, photography, illustration (if
that's a skill you possess) and attention to detail. Sloppy spelling and
poor grammar in (let's say an annual report) will quickly lose you
brownie points. The best way for a student to put a good portfolio
together is to re-create actual jobs from the real world. Pick up a
variety of leaflets, mailers, stationery, brochures and magazines, etc.,
and really study them to discover why they were put to together in the
way they were. Then strive to improve on them.
Good design is the art and science of communicating in words and
pictures to elicit a desired response. It's not about making things
"pretty".
The art lies in the originality of the designer and their ability to
translate ideas into solutions that will get results on the printed
page. The science lies in understanding typography, colour separation
and the limitations of putting ink on paper.
>That is probably what
>is confusing you as to what I am also asking. What I am also asking
>is, is it really that hard to get in to a job like that?
No, it's not hard. It needs four things:
1. Talent. Some will argue this can be learned. I disagree. Talent is
something one is born with. You either have it or you don't. If you have
it you know you have it without anyone having to tell you. If you don't
no amount of training or practise will change that. What training and
practise *CAN* do is develop innate talent. But there has to be
something there to develop.
2. Training and practise. (See above). Practise *does* make perfect. A
virtuoso in any field is someone who is a master of the tools of their
trade. What do I mean by that? Look at any great classical violinist.
Are they watching their bowing? No. Their eyes are closed. They have
achieved such mastery of their chosen instrument (tool) that they can
concentrate fully on the creative process secure in the knowledge that
their hands will faithfully translate their inspiration into sound that
all can hear and enjoy.
2. Enthusiasm. Good designers get excited about their work. It's this
excitement that allows inspiration to flow and ideas to flourish.
3. Determination. Clearly formulate your goal and do everything in your
power to realise it. Success in any walk of life comes from having a
firm goal and never doubting that you will achieve it.
I could also add - attention to detail (it's often the little things, a
typo here, and RGB colour there, that trip us up), conscientiousness and
humility.
Why humility? Because the person who will not recognise their mistakes
and shortcomings will never learn anything. There is *always* someone
better than us or someone who can teach us something we lack. The
greatest men and women in any creative field are *always* humble.
Wherever you find arrogance and a "know it all" attitude you find
someone who is mediocre at best or a talentless impostor at worst.
>My 3 strongest areas in grqaphic design are as follows in sequential
>order...
>1. Using Illustrator, especially using the pathfinder, creating masks,
>and the blend tool to create follow path gradients.
(More tools stuff snipped):
The tools are only important as a means to an end.
Whilst prospective employers will not want to employ people who cannot
clearly demonstrate their ability to use the tools of the trade,
facility with those tools is less important (IMO) than the solid design
skills and originality I mentioned earlier. I can teach someone to use
Quark in a week. I cannot teach someone good typography in a week. I
certainly cannot teach someone to come up with original designs if they
have no innate artistic talent.
Tools change. Quark Xpress and Indesign are a case in point. Those who
tie themselves too closely to specific tools will always suffer when
those tools are superseded. But good designers will *always* be needed
so long as Man communicates ideas in words and pictures. Which is more
than you can say for pre-press operators!
Best wishes and good luck!
--
Del Tree
Michael Sullivan
> Robert Neilen wrote:
>
> > [snip]
>
> > So what I want to know is, as graphic
> > desinger point of view, can I build a good portfolio using a inkjet
> > postscript printer for when I am looking for a job after I graduate?
>
> Not likely. Interviewers usually want to see finished product. It might
> be a different story if you were an illustrator. And you should never,
> ever show someone else's work as your own -- you will get caught someday.
>
> > Also what do you think of using these types of printers as to doing
> > some small end jobs where a business only needs a few prints here and
> > there? Do you think I can get away with that,
>
> No again. In the real world, desktop inkjets are pretty much meant to be
> only for rough proofs -- especially when it comes to color.
Actually, in the real world, there is a *lot* of call for short run jobs
that could be profitably produced on a decent (low-supplies-cost)
inkjet. One of our drivers has a little dtp business out of his house,
running an HP color inkjet with the 3rd party refill mechanism. He
doesn't do a lot, and his stuff looks pretty amateurish compared to what
a good printer would produce, but he doesn't charge anywhere *near* what
they would, and they don't look bad. He does stuff for local
non-profits and small businesses that he knows through K-of-C, and uses
us or one of our customers for any finishing he can't do.
There are dozens of people like this guy out there. I doubt many of
them are making a full-time living at it without better chops, but they
do get some RealJobs[tm]. So yes, if you want to make this a career,
that's probably not the only thing you should know how to do.
> > or do you think when I
> > am looking for a job when they mean exerience they mean besides having
> > experience in layout and design, but also having experience calling
> > printer companies and knowing how that specific printer company wants
> > your art work done.
You won't be expected to know how a specific printer wants a job done,
but you *will* be expected to be able to have an intelligent
conversation with that printer, and get the necessary information and
understand it. If you've never worked with *any* outside printer
before, you don't have this experience. Even if you have, you don't
have this experience if they've coddled you (fixed everything they could
without calling). If you've used printers and haven't gotten lots of
calls, ask them straight up whether your stuff needs extra work -- they
will probably tell you if you can talk to the person who actually
preflights your work.
> > I ask this since all I am tring to do is get some
> > experience in the real world, yet people nowadays want the cheapest
> > price, and I can't compete with big companies without wipping the
> > middle man (the printer company).
Actually, people want good value. If you want to charge a higher price
than the printer next door and still get the work, you must provide a
better service. That's very difficult when you don't know as much as
they do, and don't have as much capital/equipment.
If you want to freelance, you are best off starting out working for an
agency or printer. If you are smart, and listen well, you may learn
what you need to offer an equivalent service and start making it as a
freelancer, after a couple years. You may also develop contacts for
cheap prices.
Just going down to the local print shop isn't going to cut it -- if you
decide to freelance, they are your competition. Unless/until they
decide that you can bring them a lot of business as a broker, you'll get
the same prices for jobs that the people you are trying to sell would.
Only when you begin to know which printers do which jobs efficiently
(they price cheap, but still have good quality and make money), and how
to best work with them, will you be able to offer enough added value as
a broker to make a reasonable living. That's knowledge you must gain
and skills you must learn. Either that or you have to be the kind of
salesman who can sell ice in the arctic winter -- assuming you can live
with yourself that way.
Michael
Michael Sullivan
> is, is it really that hard to get in to a job like that? If so, how
> do I get in without a portfolio, or doing some jobs myself?
Depending on where you are looking, a portfolio can be necessary or
unnecessary. if you want work as a *designer*, you will probably need a
portfolio to get a job that is not essentially clerical.
If you go to a small commercial printer or prepress house, you can get
in without a portfolio. In fact, I tend to shun folks with portfolios,
because that usually means the job they really want (artist/designer) is
one that we will never have for them. Understand that you will be paid
*squat* unless you are a) able to get a lot of work out and b) find
someone who will pay well -- some folks will just keep you at minimum
until you get smart and leave and there will be a dozen trainees to take
your place. Use a place like this only for training. If you get truly
productive and your pay doesn't start approaching a living wage, start
looking elsewhere, because they probably just don't pay one.
The places will pay decently will also put you out on your ear fast if
you can't get work done. They key in these places is to remember that
you have not been hired to be Rembrandt or Goudy, but a hack. The job
is to get as much conservative, professional-looking customer-is-happy
work out as possible. You can only nit-fiddle to the extent that your
customers expect it and are paying for it, or you will be losing your
company money.
Anyway, such places will potentially hire you without a portfolio and
give you valuable experience, though they won't pay well at first, and
may never. While you are putting in your 1-3 years, you get to decide
if you like production work, in which case you figure out how to find a
place that pays decently, or you build your portfolio -- use your
connections to get jobs done for friends, etc. that you put your real
design skills into. After a while, you will not only have a portfolio,
but potentially a lot of prepress/press knowledge that will help as
well.
Michael
Del Tree
<mic...@bcect.com> wrote (snipped some):
>Anyway, such places will potentially hire you without a portfolio and
>give you valuable experience, though they won't pay well at first, and
>may never.
That sounds like the clients we know and love, Michael
;-)
--
Del Tree