Unbelievable! (Long and sordid and pathetic)
AV
So, here I am 2 months later still shopping for a #&*damn scanner. I
call Epson Connection to ask one simple question. Or at least I thought
it was simple.
Your Dynamic Range figure of 3.6 does not tell me whether that is a
rating for transparency or reflective. While the scanner does not come
equipped with a Transparency unit (it is an option), I have a hard time
believing that this figure is for reflective art. If it is, then I'm
amazed. If it isn't, then Epson is misleading people. What are the
facts?
This person looks up her figures, and then announces to me that the
dynamic range for the 1640 scanner is..... 3.6.
Yes, I know that. But...and I repeat the question.
She gets off the phone to "research" the matter.
She returns a few minutes later to tell me that is all that she can
find. She asked a colleague in the office. When I ask if I could speak
with someone in tech about it, she tells me that I will get the same
answer. Of THAT she is certain.
I call tech. After a mere 5 minute queue wait, I ask the fellow the
question. He tells me that the dynamic range of the scanner is 3.6.
I repeat the question. He tells me that he will transfer the call to a
.....drumroll please..... a SCANNER SPECIALIST.
Ok, I thought. Now we're getting somewhere.
We're only about 20 minutes since I first called. Not too bad. I get the
"scanner specialist" right away. I ask him the question. He asks for my
name. I give him a fake name. He asks for my zipcode. I give him an
accurate zipcode. He asks for my address. I ask why. He tells me for his
records. I say I don't even own the thing and I have a simple question.
He says he must have it. I give him my address (1234 Main Street if you
must know). He types that in. He asks for my telephone number. I refuse.
I then ask the question.
He looks up the answer.
He tells me that the dynamic range for the scanner is 3.6.
I repeat the question.
He says that he is having trouble hearing me.
I scream the question.
He gets off the line.
He comes back on a few minutes later and tells me that the dynamic range
is 3.6.
He asks me what is it that I want to know.
I tell him that I have asked him the question a few times already.
He tells me that he must transfer me to a higher level tech support.
After waiting in queue for THAT level for another 5 minutes, I hang up.
Is it me? What am I missing here? Am I wanting to know too much about
$2500 equipment? I have a feeling that I'd get better answers for the
lower end equipment.
a 'woe is me' v
Del Tree
heartrending and moving tale of woe (mostly snipped):
>So, here I am 2 months later still shopping for a #&*damn scanner. I
>call Epson Connection to ask one simple question. Or at least I thought
>it was simple.
AV, old chap, you should have read _THIS_ before you started down the
tortuous path that has led you to your present hell:
WARNING - LONG AND SEXUALLY EXPLICIT POST FOLLOWS!!!
*HELD IN A QUEUE*
So there I was sitting in front of my brand new Acme Supertwain GXP
flatbed scanner and wondering why the quality wasn't even as good as my
son's $20.00 Whizzoscan Lite when the AutoSoftware Updater (TM) dialed
up to the Net and a chirpy female voice addressed me in a breezy tone:
"Thank you for using the Acme Supertwain GXP flatbed scanner (TM)
Your scanner is stopped. Your scanner will go again as soon as a
technician has diagnosed the fault that has occurred."
Cue wallpaper musak...
"Sorry for the delay. All our technicians are currently occupied with
other customers. As soon as one becomes available you will be able to
continue your scanning."
Cue more musak...
"Would you like an the optional transparency adaptor and FREE slide tray
holder?
Well, you could win BOTH in our super website prize drawer now running
at www.acme-scanners4u.com. Why not visit us while you wait?"
yet more musak...
"Thank you for your patience. Your well-being is important to us.
All our technicians are currently occupied with other customers. As soon
as one becomes available you will be able to continue scanning..."
"Hmphh!"
still more musak...
click, whirrr, vrooOOOOM!
"Yippeeee!"
"Thank you for your patience. Your scanner is now being re-started. We
look forward to helping you again real soon."
Magic! Soon I was merrily whipping my wife's lingerie snaps on and off
the bed, whistling a cheerful tune and thinking what a jolly wizard
thing it was to be living
in the bright and shiny 21st Century when all of a sudden it came to
an abrupt stop.
"Thank you for using the Acme Supertwain GXP flatbed scanner (TM)
Your scanner has been stopped becuase a critical fault has developed.
Your scanner will function again as soon as a technician has diagnosed
the fault that has occurred."
Cue irritatingly banal musak...
"Sorry for the delay. All our technicians are currently occupied with
other customers. As soon as one becomes available you will be able to
continue your scanning."
Cue irritatingly banal musak (again)...
Would you like a new IT8 Scan target or our groovey calibration utility?
Well, you could win BOTH in our super website prize draw running now at
www.acme-scanners4u.com. Why not visit us now?"
Cut to irritatingly banal musak...
"Thank you for waiting. Your call is being held in a queue.
All our technicians are currently occupied with other customers. As soon
as one becomes available you will be able to continue your scanning."
Banal musak, (again) sigh...
Sorry, your scanner cannot be re-started at this time. Please try again
later. Thank you for using the Acme AutoSoftware Updater (TM).
Oh well, might as well use the time to try to get that printer bug
solved by Tech support...
Cue mobile phone dialling out:
"Hello, I have a problem using the binary protocol with my-"
Hello? *HELLO?* Bugger! I've been cut off!"
Cue second attempt:
"Hello, I have a problem with-"
"Thank you for contacting the Acme Printer Support Hotline
Your question is important to us and an advisor will be with you
shortly."
"What? Hello? *HELLLLO!?"
Cue Wagner's "Ride of the Valkyries"...
"Your call is being held in a queue. Please wait to be connected to a
Print Technology advisor."
Some minutes pass...
Cue Wagner's "Ride of the Valkyries" (again!)...
"Sorry for the delay. Your call is being held in a queue as all our
print technology advisors are currently busy. Your call will be answered
as soon as one of our advisors becomes available."
5 minutes pass as more musak bashes my ear...
"Sorry for the delay. Your call is being held in a queue as all our
print technology advisors are busy with other customers. (actually the
sick bastards are lolling in their comfy chairs in front of a webcam
laughing their fat asses off, watching some poor idiot with a busted
scanner but we're not going to tell you that, you dipstick!) For
up-to-the minute tips and tricks on all printing issues why not visit
our website at www.acme-printers.com? Our website has a comprehensive
help section and searchable database which is available 24 hours a day,
365 days of the year. (Well, actually it doesn't and it isn't because
the database is corrupt, the javascript's missing a few brackets and
braces and the server's down more often than a whore's drawers but I'm
not going to tell you that, am I?)"
Cue yet more musak...
"Sorry, you are being held in a queue. Your printing question is
important to us and advisor will be with you shortly."
Still more mindnumbingly banal musak...
"Are you still hanging on? Wow! You must be one desparately sad sucker.
Opps, I mean: sorry for the delay. Your call is being held in a queue as
all our print technology advisors are currently busy."
More musak...
"Sorry, your call cannot be answered at this time. Please be sure to
call us again real soon. Thank you for contacting the Acme Printer
Support Hotline".
Damn! The scanner still doesn't work. I might as well get out and get
some cold beers from the local store...
Great, they've got Boors Super Gold Export - now where's the checkout?
"Thank you for visiting the Acme Megastore - you one-stop shop for all
your home and personal needs. You are being held in a queue. Your
transaction will be completed as soon as an assistant becomes
available."
Cue ear-splittingly loud heavy metal musak...
"Sorry for the delay. All our store assistants are currently busy.
Your purchase will be completed as soon as one of our store assistants
becomes available."
musak continues...
"Sorry, you are being held in a queue. Your purchase is important to us
and one of our store assistants will be with you shortly. Meanwhile why
not check out the bargains on our new website at www.acmeshopping.com?
This week we have Boors Super Gold Export on offer at just 10c a quart.
What's more, if you buy 10 quarts we will deliver it absolutely FREE of
charge via the superfast Acme Expressway(TM) next day service. Check it
out now!"
I can't bloody well check it out you stupid assholes!!!
yet more (yawn) musak..
"Sorry for the delay. All our store assistants are currently busy
helping other suckers - oppps - customers. Your purchase is important to
us and will be completed as soon as one of our store assistants becomes
available."
musak...
"Sorry, your purchase cannot be completed at this time. Please call in
again real soon. Thank you for shopping at the Acme Megastore".
Arrghhh!
Eventually I walked home, hot, tired, wired and in need of some serious
relaxation with the wife...
"Darling! DARLING!!!!???
"Thank you for visiting Wife Personal Services (TM). Your sexual needs
are important to us and your wife will be with you shortly."
"What?"
"Sorry, you are being held in a queue. Your sexual needs are very
important to us and your wife will be coming shortly."
"Well that's more than I will!"
Cue a soothing string quartet...
"Sorry for the delay. You are being held in a queue. Your sexual needs
are very important to Wife Personal Services (TM) and your wife is eager
to meet them."
"Wh-What the f*ck?"
"Sorry for the delay. Wife Personal Services (TM) is currently busy with
online shopping at the Acme MegaStore and will service your needs as
soon as she becomes available."
more musak...
Thank you for visiting Wife Personal Services (TM). Your sexual needs
are important to us and your wife will be with you shortly. Meanwhile
why not check out the SUPER DEALS on our website at www.acme-
wifeyessentials.com. Today we have a REALLY COOL deal for you: Buy just
2 quarts of Acme Boors Super Gold Export Beer and we will give your wife
a
LIFE SIZE inflatable model of BRAD GITT absolutely FREE! What's more
your purchase will be delivered to your front door at NO CHARGE via our
superfast Acme Expressway(TM) next day service! And there's MORE! If you
need help using your LIFE SIZE inflatable model of BRAD GITT we are
offering FREE technical support via our 24/7 SUPPORT HOTLINE!!!"
yet more musak....
"We are very sorry but your needs cannot be met at this time. Please
call Wife Personal Services (TM) again real soon."
ARRRGHHH, GRRRR!
Next day the local headlines read:
"SEX-CRAZED ARSONIST firebombs Acme Scansoft ink headquarters,
demolishes Megastore and SLAYS FAMILY IN FRENZIED BLOODBATH!
Welcome to the 21st Century folks <G>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
© 2001 - Copyright Tree Enterprises Ink.
--
Del Tree
Barry Siddall
How do you find the time to write all you do?
Is your claim about having a proper day job a bluff?
Are you sure you've never heard of Man City? After a hard
day's Photoshopping I can just about raise my game
enough to manage a skirmish with Fred Flintstone
over on the "What a sad response..." thread.
And even that is wearing me out.
thanks for the entertainment especially as Ken Dodd
wasn't that funny on ITV last Sunday
Barry von ICC
J. Costello
>Is it me? What am I missing here? Am I wanting to know too much about
>$2500 equipment? I have a feeling that I'd get better answers for the
>lower end equipment.
>
In a way it is you AND the company you're dealing with. Your
expectations are too high. The companies are too low. Engineers write
the specs for the equipment. Marketing people just hype them in the
ads. The tech support people have no clue what most of them mean; they
just read them off the sheet.
Since you'll probably never be allowed to talk to the people that
designed the equipment, you'll probably never know the real answer to
your question. I've had similar experiences when trying to talk
machine specs with sales reps and tech support. AND as an interesting
story I was in a large computer chain talking to the HP rep visting
the store when his colleague came over (also an HP sales rep) and
asked whether when scanning in a photograph it becomes digitized. The
rep I was talking to said, "No." and went on mumbling something about
its "just being in there as a picture, but you have to save it as a
jpeg."
Personally if you need a high dynamic range in a flatbed scanner, the
word I've heard is that UMax's specs are the most accurate. Might or
might not be true.
But also consider that if what you are scanning is destined for offset
printing, then the upper and lower edge of the dynamic range is not
that critical as you'll never be able to distinguish the fine shadow
detail when the image is produced as a halftone. There have been a
number of discussions in this group about how much the tonal scale is
crunched once your photo is made into a halftone then further crunched
because of dot gain.
J. Costello
Del Tree
<ba...@siddall.de> wrote
>Del,
>
>How do you find the time to write all you do?
A man of my talents can dash off a magnificent octopus like that in 2
shakes of a casting schtick, Bazza, my'boy.
>Is your claim about having a proper day job a bluff?
Probably.
>Are you sure you've never heard of Man City?
Definitely.
>After a hard
>day's Photoshopping I can just about raise my game
>enough to manage a skirmish with Fred Flintstone
>over on the "What a sad response..." thread.
Well there you are. They don't make 'em as tough as they used to.
>And even that is wearing me out.
See above.
>thanks for the entertainment especially as Ken Dodd
>wasn't that funny on ITV last Sunday
Ken who?
--
Del Tree
AV
>
> Welcome to the 21st Century folks <G>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> © 2001 - Copyright Tree Enterprises Ink.
> --
> Del Tree
This one's a keeper pal.
All I can say is that I truly hope that I can be lodged in the same old
folks home (or sanatorium) as you so that you can help me die happy.
Thanks
av
AV
> Personally if you need a high dynamic range in a flatbed scanner, the
> word I've heard is that UMax's specs are the most accurate. Might or
> might not be true.
>
> But also consider that if what you are scanning is destined for offset
> printing, then the upper and lower edge of the dynamic range is not
> that critical as you'll never be able to distinguish the fine shadow
> detail when the image is produced as a halftone. There have been a
> number of discussions in this group about how much the tonal scale is
> crunched once your photo is made into a halftone then further crunched
> because of dot gain.
>
> J. Costello
Hi J.
Yeah, I probably do know all that, but just the same, I like to know
what I am buying. Maybe that is expecting too much, and if so, that is
more a social construct than anything particularly logical.
And for that matter, given what you say, I might be best off avoiding
all these "prosumer" end scanners and just buy a $200 cheapie and be
happy. Given my recent experience with the Microtek Artixscan, I am
almost *about* to believe that the lower end scanners are no worse than
the higher ones!
Your HP story is truly sad, if not scary.
thanks
av
Graham Douglas
Del Tree <d...@spamfreeuser42nospam.freeuk.com> wrote in message
news:bsk5w4BF...@spamfree.fsnet.co.uk...
Hi Del,
Recall Ken Dod's Tax problems a few years
ago -- there was a gag going around:
Have you heard about Ken Dod's two new Diddy Men?
Diddy Pay, Diddy Bollocks
I nearly gagged with laughter when
I first heard that one. Still makes me
grin.
Cheers
Graham
RSD99
Your HP story is truly sad, if not scary.
And unfortunately becoming all too common.
- - - - -
"AV" <a...@sover.net> wrote in message news:3C6A40...@sover.net...
micro serf
>...or is it unbelievEable.
>
>So, here I am 2 months later still shopping for a #&*damn scanner. I
>call Epson Connection to ask one simple question. Or at least I thought
>it was simple.
>
>Your Dynamic Range figure of 3.6 does not tell me whether that is a
>rating for transparency or reflective. While the scanner does not come
>equipped with a Transparency unit (it is an option), I have a hard time
>believing that this figure is for reflective art. If it is, then I'm
>amazed. If it isn't, then Epson is misleading people. What are the
>facts?
>
>This person looks up her figures, and then announces to me that the
>dynamic range for the 1640 scanner is..... 3.6.
>
>Yes, I know that. But...and I repeat the question.
<long and sad story snipped...>
I hold technical position in a large multi-national. It is literally
true that the only people who have the authority to "explain" the
specs. in further detail are PHBs that cannot possible understand
them. Some engineer "signed off" on the spec -- everyone in marketing
and support can only "quote" it. Our marketing and support groups read
the specs like they were written by lawyers...
If someone "explains" the spec, you buy the product and it isn't what
you expect, you'll say the person who talked to you misled you. (or
someone less scrupulous than you will do that). Do these support
grunts want to risk their job for you? (not you personally, you
understand....)
Support can usually escalate calls, but there has to be some dire
consequence (like having to take a product back if they cannot make
you go away). Losing a possible sale isn't even a blip on their radar.
You have to go somewhere there is a sample unit, scan a target from it
and see if the scan meets your requirements for dynamic range and
everything else. Then make sure the unit you buy matches the sample.
<true story>
We once sold a system including a computer that listed a 400MH AMD
processor on the marketing collateral. It had such a processor. The
processor was running at 300 MH. But the processor was a 400MH
processor. This discrepancy was probably an accident. But the line
between fraud and marketing can be so thin.
</true story>
micro serf
ms...@pacbell.net
Del Tree
<g.do...@readytext.co.uk> wrote
>Diddy Pay, Diddy Bollocks
Which is pretty much how my conversations with Ms Givings go on a Friday
afternoon when she's cooking the books - I mean - doing the bookkeeping:
Me: Did the bastard pay?
Her: Did he bollocks.
Best,
--
Del Tree
AV
>
> I hold technical position in a large multi-national. It is literally
> true that the only people who have the authority to "explain" the
> specs. in further detail are PHBs that cannot possible understand
> them. Some engineer "signed off" on the spec -- everyone in marketing
> and support can only "quote" it. Our marketing and support groups read
> the specs like they were written by lawyers...
I knew it was the lawyers' fault!
Not sure what PHB's are? (Are the carcinogenic?)
This wasn't a question of "explaining" spec per se. It was demanding
that they clarify a specification that was not being specific. There's a
difference.
> If someone "explains" the spec, you buy the product and it isn't what
> you expect, you'll say the person who talked to you misled you. (or
> someone less scrupulous than you will do that). Do these support
> grunts want to risk their job for you? (not you personally, you
> understand....)
>
Perhaps. But then, if I believe what you say is true, you could very
likely spread that "logic" around to include nearly every call for every
product for every subject.
Secondly, this spec that I was asking for is quite a good one. Even if
it were for transparency only. I suspect that the dynamic range for
reflective is probably around 3.2, given the disparity range I see in
most flatbeds. THAT is a very good one too. In other words, they have
nothing to hide. As it is, they are trying to make me believe that the
dynamic range for reflective art is 3.6, which for a flatbed is absurdly
high. In other words, they are giving out the more "riskier" figure,
i.e riskier according to your scenario.
I was trying to talk them down.
> Support can usually escalate calls, but there has to be some dire
> consequence (like having to take a product back if they cannot make
> you go away). Losing a possible sale isn't even a blip on their radar.
But, but but, they DID escalate me. And he COULDN"T answer the
question!! So I don't follow you here either.
> You have to go somewhere there is a sample unit, scan a target from it
> and see if the scan meets your requirements for dynamic range and
> everything else. Then make sure the unit you buy matches the sample.
I suppose I could travel the 2+ hours it would take to get to the
nearest city. And then try and find one dealer who has all the higher
end scanners (read: very very unlikely, and I'd probably have to visit
at least 2 or 3 dealers. Yes, all possible, and I suppose in hindsight
something less of a hassle than what I am going through so far. But I
tell you, from my recent experience with a dealer, Professional
Graphics in Elmsford NY, (I name names!! Watch out.) THEY couldn't
answer any specific or technical questions either!
av
av
micro serf
>micro serf wrote:
>>
>
>> I hold technical position in a large multi-national. It is literally
>> true that the only people who have the authority to "explain" the
>> specs. in further detail are PHBs that cannot possible understand
>> them. Some engineer "signed off" on the spec -- everyone in marketing
>> and support can only "quote" it. Our marketing and support groups read
>> the specs like they were written by lawyers...
>
>I knew it was the lawyers' fault!
>Not sure what PHB's are? (Are the carcinogenic?)
>This wasn't a question of "explaining" spec per se. It was demanding
>that they clarify a specification that was not being specific. There's a
>difference.
PHB=Pointed Haired Boss. Term from a famous, apparently only in US,
cartoon called Dilbert. Todays example:
PHB: I've just reduced our development costs by outsourcing our
project
Dilbert: Does the proposal have a huge hourly rate for work not in the
proposal?
PHB: Why do you ask?
For some reason this stuff is hilarious if you are employed in the
right place.
I agree there's a difference in what you are asking for, but I am also
certain that I could NEVER explain that difference to my PHB so they
understood (or worse, explain it so my PHB could explain it to their
PHB). Corporate life cannot be confused with the real world.
>
>> If someone "explains" the spec, you buy the product and it isn't what
>> you expect, you'll say the person who talked to you misled you. (or
>> someone less scrupulous than you will do that). Do these support
>> grunts want to risk their job for you? (not you personally, you
>> understand....)
>>
>
>Perhaps. But then, if I believe what you say is true, you could very
>likely spread that "logic" around to include nearly every call for every
>product for every subject.
We can and we do. If the answer isn't in the manual, they don't give
it. I see it, it makes me crazy, you cannot fight it.
>> Support can usually escalate calls, but there has to be some dire
>> consequence (like having to take a product back if they cannot make
>> you go away). Losing a possible sale isn't even a blip on their radar.
>
>But, but but, they DID escalate me. And he COULDN"T answer the
>question!! So I don't follow you here either.
They dragged in someone from 2 cubicles down in an attempt to make you
go away. Been there, done that. In my route to where I am now, I have
played many kinds of specialists on the phone.... By escalate, they
would write down your question in baby talk so their PHB will
understand (hard to do when they didn't understand...), someone else
would review the worthiness of the question, send the question to
engineering (which is not in their work location) and someday get an
answer they can give to you and everyone (after three requests for
clarification). One caller wanting accurate info is not enough to
motivate this action.
>
>> You have to go somewhere there is a sample unit, scan a target from it
>> and see if the scan meets your requirements for dynamic range and
>> everything else. Then make sure the unit you buy matches the sample.
>
>I suppose I could travel the 2+ hours it would take to get to the
>nearest city. And then try and find one dealer who has all the higher
>end scanners (read: very very unlikely, and I'd probably have to visit
>at least 2 or 3 dealers. Yes, all possible, and I suppose in hindsight
>something less of a hassle than what I am going through so far. But I
>tell you, from my recent experience with a dealer, Professional
>Graphics in Elmsford NY, (I name names!! Watch out.) THEY couldn't
>answer any specific or technical questions either!
I strongly doubt you will find anyone to answer your questions to your
satisfaction. In my industry (not professional scanners or I would try
help) I have the info to answer questions like yours, and since I
generally like my job, I have to make it a point never to do that. The
point of corporate life is to avoid being blamed for things going
wrong (sigh)
People who *really* understand the product are rarely in sales. People
in support have the primary objective of avoiding blame, because one
complaint visible to higher management overshadows a ton of good work.
I just don't think you can get there from here without doing it
yourself.
Cheers
micro serf
ms...@pacbell.net
Barry Siddall
> ago -- there was a gag going around:
>
> Have you heard about Ken Dod's two new Diddy Men?
>
> Diddy Pay, Diddy Bollocks
>
> I nearly gagged with laughter when
> I first heard that one. Still makes me
> grin.
I just grin when I think of the bloke.
I liked his one about appearing in Panto on stage
wearing green tights...
"From the back of the theatre I looked like a bag of sprouts!"
Graham Douglas
Barry Siddall <ba...@siddall.de> wrote in message
news:3C6C03CB...@siddall.de...
LOL :-)))!
Cheers
Graham
Barry Siddall
on the "What a sad response...." thread last night did you?
He might have written "frying" but no...I've re-read it and he's
definitely having a go at busting 'em. Is he allowed to do things
like this on a God fearing family forum like this?
He can take the piss out of me all he likes but this north american
macho "chop busting" I find too ghastly just too contemplate!
yours, now just a bit worried about contributing (HA!) to cpp
Barry
Barry Siddall
A Sunday League football team is desperate for players.
So desperate in fact that one Sunday they are forced to play a
chicken. Rather surprisingly the chicken has a brilliant first half.
One minute it's clearing off its own line, the next threading the perfect
through ball, the next putting in a perfect cross.
At half time all its team mates are very pleased and everyone runs
back onto the pitch for the second half.
On the way the ref starts chatting with the chicken.
"Great first half mate, you must be really fit".
"Thanks", replied the chicken, "I try to keep myself fit but its
difficult finding the time so I try to do an hour in the gym each
morning before work".
"What do you do then?" asked the ref. "I'm a chartered accountant"
replies the chicken.
At this point the ref immediately brandishes the red card and sends
the chicken off.
The bemused team-mates gather round the ref and start complaining.
"Sorry lads", says the ref, "I had no choice.
"Professional fowl".
Barry
Graham Douglas
I did notice some interesting exchanges
but that's de rigueur for this forum. Heaven forbid
that it becomes God-fearing or family-friendly. No fun in that!
The ineffable Mr Del Tree has some of the best
run-ins with our Atlantic Cousins -- and long
may that continue. All in good fun -- it adds to the
rich tapestry that is CPP. There's much wit and
wisdom within this NG, which is why it's my favourite
by a long way.
Regards
Graham
Del Tree
<ms...@pacbell.net.xxx> wrote (mostly snipped):
>We can and we do. If the answer isn't in the manual, they don't give
>it. I see it, it makes me crazy, you cannot fight it.
Only too true IMVPE...
>They dragged in someone from 2 cubicles down in an attempt to make you
>go away.
Even truer... :-(
>I strongly doubt you will find anyone to answer your questions to your
>satisfaction. In my industry (not professional scanners or I would try
>help) I have the info to answer questions like yours, and since I
>generally like my job, I have to make it a point never to do that. The
>point of corporate life is to avoid being blamed for things going
>wrong (sigh)
How true and how sad.
This reminds me of a time so halcyon that I'm beginning to think I
dreamed it all two years ago when I was in almost daily email contact
(and sometimes by phone, too) with a senior development engineer at
(what was then) QMS Inc in darkest Birmingham, Al.
That guy deserved a medal for conscientious service above and beyond the
call of duty. Not only was he willing (and, more importantly, able) to
answer every single question I put to him about their (then) flagship
printer, the mc300gx, but he also bent over backwards to supply special
drivers, custom icc profiles written just for us, and a hole bunch of
other stuff too comprehensive to mention. Wherever he is now, I bless
his little cotton socks and salute him!
The day after Minolta took over QMS the emails stopped. dead. period.
stop. None of my calls were returned and what passes for "Tech Support"
in this industry took over...
I repeat...how very, very sad. On the strength of that relationship and
the information, confidence and security it gave me I bought another
mc330, and I was instrumental in persuading three other companies to buy
one too. Now, just think about this. As a _direct_ result of the
exemplary service we received from that _one_ guy, QMS sold 4 more
printers. Multiply that by 100 and even the dimmest and most paranoid
PHB should be able to grasp the potential...
Sadly, they don't. The wonder is that half of the manufacturers we deal
with sell half as much kit as they do. It must be because we are all
suckers.
So long as accountants rule corporations things will remain as they are
- which I guess, given the greed and mendacity of accountants, will be
until hell swallows them all up...
Best,
--
Del Tree
Del Tree
<ba...@siddall.de> wrote
>"From the back of the theatre I looked like a bag of sprouts!"
And from the front, side, bottom and top of the stage he looked like the
total arse that he was.
I hated the man.
--
Del Tree
Del Tree
<ba...@siddall.de> wrote
>You didn't happen to notice Hr. Blee Levins "busting my chops"
>on the "What a sad response...." thread last night did you?
>He might have written "frying" but no...I've re-read it and he's
>definitely having a go at busting 'em. Is he allowed to do things
>like this on a God fearing family forum like this?
Yep. Notwithstanding that Lee rides a third-rate bike he makes a
first-rate contributor to a second-rate newsgroup.
Or it could be because Lee is an AMERICAN and, as we second rate
citizens of a third-rate European Empire should know, that means he is a
first-rate professional. :-)
>He can take the piss out of me all he likes but this north american
>macho "chop busting" I find too ghastly just too contemplate!
"Taking the piss" is something Americans haven't the foggiest idea how
to do. Even their President thinks "irony" is a duller sort of "goldy".
>yours, now just a bit worried about contributing (HA!) to cpp
You needn't be. Just remember which side of the pond you're on and lose
no opportunity to stick it to those overfed, overweight and over-there
Yanks.
Best,
--
Del Tree
Barry Siddall
"hated" is past tense Del. the genius is still very much alive.
And thank you very much for pouring your cold water
on proceedings. Thank you very much, indeed.
A speciality of yours when you've got a mood on, I suppose.
Wanker!
Barry
Del Tree
<ba...@siddall.de> wrote
>"Professional fowl".
Groan... :-(
Try this instead:
Lee and AV meet in a press room. They lean against the press, drinking
coffee, and talking about scanner dmax.
Suddenly, a female stripper at a nearby bench, who is eating lunch,
begins to cough and choke on her pastrami sandwich. After a minute or
so, it becomes apparent that she is in dire distress.
Lee looks at her and says, "Kin ya swaller?" The woman shakes
her head, no.
"Kin ya breathe?" The woman begins to turn blue and shakes her head.
Lee walks over to the woman, lifts up the back of her dress, yanks
down her panties and gives her butt cheeks a lapping with his tongue.
The woman is so shocked that she has a violent spasm and the obstruction
flies out of her mouth. As she begins to breathe again, Lee walks slowly
back to the press and takes a sip of coffee.
AV says, " Ya know, Lee, I'd heard of that thar 'Hind Lick
Manoeuvre', but I ain't never seen nobody do it".
Enjoy <G>
--
Del Tree
Del Tree
<g.do...@readytext.co.uk> wrote
>The ineffable Mr Del Tree has some of the best
>run-ins with our Atlantic Cousins -- and long
>may that continue.
Count on it. :-)
--
Del Tree
Del Tree
<ba...@siddall.de> wrote
>> I hated the man.
>
>"hated" is past tense Del. the genius is still very much alive.
Is he? Bugger! That just goes to show that you can't get a decent
Sicilian hit man nowadays.
>And thank you very much for pouring your cold water
>on proceedings. Thank you very much, indeed.
>A speciality of yours when you've got a mood on, I suppose.
When I see otherwise intelligent individuals waxing lyrical about a
talentless tosspot, what else is there to do?
>Wanker!
No, I doubt it. I don't think he has the intelligence to know how to.
Best,
--
Del Tree
Barry Siddall
I meant you....as you well, as you know. I can't be the first.
LeeB has slung that kind of insult across the Atlantic in your
direction at least three hundred times (his estimate, told to me in
confidence, of course, by Hr. B himself).
And if we carry on like this we'll be getting star billing
on Sky One's forthcoming "Real Newsgroup Squabbling"
special scheduled for a certain Sunday evening in April.
After the Simpsons who you also no doubt regard as gits!
I could do with the exposure, but you're exposed enough
by now, as it indeed shows by trashing a lovely bloke
who makes everyone smile apart from you it appears.
Get away from that screen, Del. You're having radiation
problems in the "sympathy" area.
Barry
PS. Yes, I know...tax fiddler, etc. The bloke went to prison
and served his porridge. All I know is when I saw him
live I laughed until I stopped and you can't ask more than
that. I stopped laughing at the "parrot sketch" in 1970.
Five minutes after it was broadcast.
PPS. I've stopped reading anything with the Del Tree signature btw.
So you can write your tirades in response all nite. It doesn't bother
me...I will turn two blind eyes.
PPPS. Though if you reply to this I may take a peek.
AV
> I strongly doubt you will find anyone to answer your questions to your
> satisfaction. In my industry (not professional scanners or I would try
> help) I have the info to answer questions like yours, and since I
> generally like my job, I have to make it a point never to do that. The
> point of corporate life is to avoid being blamed for things going
> wrong (sigh)
>
> People who *really* understand the product are rarely in sales. People
> in support have the primary objective of avoiding blame, because one
> complaint visible to higher management overshadows a ton of good work.
> I just don't think you can get there from here without doing it
> yourself.
Whoever you are, I think you can only speak from your experience (and
respective company) which you are undoubtedly doing. That it is a
"realistic" if not cynical viewpoint only goes as far as your nose. I
have found many examples of flexible, vibrant corporations wherein their
staff is fully authorized to answer questions directly and succinctly.
Sometimes this is found at the so-called lower level areas (CSR's and
the like), in which case everyone feels happy, refreshed, satisfied and
excited. Othertimes it is found in the so-called "Executive Assistant"
or "Office of the Executive" which might very well be miles and miles
away from any CEO, but they are deputized enough to make things happen.
I've used this alot when disatisfied with others' responses.
NO corporation lasts long fitting the description that you give. Even if
it is presently "par for the course" it is not that long ago when it
wasn't. Look at the demise of the dotcoms. Much of their activity was
based more on hubris and arrogance than any real practise or
understanding of customer service. (I know I speak broadly here, and
generalize. But it is true of many cases. Remember Birmy anyone?)
I don't buy your reasonable explanation. Not because I'm not realistic,
but rather I think I AM realistic. No, I don't believe that little ole'
me is going to have any effect whatsoever in the practises of these
companys. Just the same, I do fight when I find the energy, and feel
justified. I think I understand, to some extent, what makes successful,
long-lived corporations the way they are. You can say that success, and
a long life is not the goal of your present corporation, and that is
your/their right. I'll buy some pencils from you when I see you on the
street.
I've seen Lexmark slide miserably in terms of support. A company that I
found amazing when I first dealt with them 7 years ago, and they (and
the world) was young. I also felt the same with my first experiences
with Epson. I think down deep they are one of the good ones. We'll see
if they come around on this matter. (For the record, they never did with
my printer problem!)
av
Barry Siddall
> but that's de rigueur for this forum. Heaven forbid
> that it becomes God-fearing or family-friendly. No fun in that!
> The ineffable Mr Del Tree has some of the best
> run-ins with our Atlantic Cousins -- and long
> may that continue. All in good fun -- it adds to the
> rich tapestry that is CPP. There's much wit and
> wisdom within this NG, which is why it's my favourite
> by a long way.
All in good fun...yep, that's what it's all about. I asked
a pal in New York and he said it's actually a very MAJOR insulting
Rhode Island expression and I should shoot as soon
as I get that LeeB fellow in my sights. My trigger's cocked
as I write. (Am I allowed to mention that here?)
No, he said really it's a mild expression and I shouldn't take
it seriously. But I had to argue we germans take everything
very seriously. But we both agreed I should take a holiday in the end.
Only joking.
As long as Del Baum apologises for calling Doddy a tosspot
I'll be back.
Barry
Del Tree
<ba...@siddall.de> wrote
>I meant you....as you well, as you know.
Do I? Surely no gentleman would make such a remark?
But then, I forget, you've spent too much time in the Fartherland! <G>
>I can't be the first.
>LeeB has slung that kind of insult across the Atlantic in your
>direction at least three hundred times (his estimate, told to me in
>confidence, of course, by Hr. B himself).
Nonsense, Lee and I are closer than two peas in a pod. Why, only last
week he flew over for a rubber of Bridge with Ms Givings and another
Lady who wishes to remain anonymous for reasons Lee knows only too well
:-P
Suffice it to say that she will _not_ be competing in the point-to-point
this weekend.
>And if we carry on like this we'll be getting star billing
>on Sky One's forthcoming "Real Newsgroup Squabbling"
>special scheduled for a certain Sunday evening in April.
>After the Simpsons who you also no doubt regard as gits!
You overestimate your popularity. As for the Simpsons - what can I
possibly say but "duh"?
>I could do with the exposure
So the webcam reveals (see below).
>Get away from that screen, Del. You're having radiation
>problems in the "sympathy" area.
"Sympathy?" who needs sympathy when you have AV around?
>PPS. I've stopped reading anything with the Del Tree signature btw.
>So you can write your tirades in response all nite. It doesn't bother
>me...I will turn two blind eyes.
Your a damn liar, Sir, as my concealed webcam will testify when I send
you the CD. I only hope that "Helga" or whatever she's calling herself
these days knows just what a very wicked boy you've been.
>PPPS. Though if you reply to this I may take a peek.
Of course you will, you're a voyeur through and through. :-)
Auf weidersehen Baz,
PS:
In no particular order here is a list of comic genuises:
Please note than Ken "tosspot" Dodd is not amongst them.
Tony Hancock
Kenny Everett
Peter Cook
Peter Sellers
Tommy Cooper
Ronny Barker
Les Dawson
Bernard Manning
Benny Hill
Dom Joly
Leonard Rossiter
Rowan Atkinson
PPSS.
Compared to that list Ken Dodd isn't even in the running. If you
genuinely like the man that's your affair, but I doubt very much if
history will agree with you. Aside from his ridiculous appearance and
childish theatrically he has contributed less than nothing to the
development of comedy or satire.
Even the Teletubbies are funnier. No that's unfair on LaLa. Even Gdubya
is funnier.
TTFN,
--
Del Tree
Ken Beres
Tree" <d...@spamfreeuser42nospam.freeuk.com> wrote:
> Lee and AV meet in a press room...
C'mon, Del. From the opening this joke had so much potential, but it turned
out to be the same one you posted about a month ago.
I give it a 3.6.
--
K (heard this one before) B
Jono Moore
kbe...@u.washington.edu wrote on 2/14/02 3:23 PM:
> C'mon, Del. From the opening this joke had so much potential, but it turned
> out to be the same one you posted about a month ago.
He's recycled a couple of posts recently... definitely slipping...
...Jono
Del Tree
<ba...@siddall.de> hat eine wunderbarem geschischte geschrieben (mostly
schnippeddd):
>No, he said really it's a mild expression and I shouldn't take
>it seriously. But I had to argue we germans take everything
>very seriously.
German? With a name like that? "Meine Gute!" Unless it's a pseudonym
for Hein Muck. Please don't tell me your have a moustache, brilliantined
hair and are a confirmed vegetable eating teetotaller or I really shall
be very worried indeed.
As for Krauts - sorry "Germans" did I ever tell my favourite (true)
story about Germans?
I believe it was originally related by a well-known US Film director
(whose name sadly escapes me for the moment) who was serving as an MP in
Berlin in 1945.
Well... said MP and fellow yankee policeman stopped this Berliner (for
reasons that also escape me) early one morning and told him to wait
while they checked his papers and bona-fides. Then they roared off in
their jeep with the parting words "DON'T MOVE OFF THAT SPOT TIL WE GET
BACK, OK?"
"Ja - zum befehl", or whatever says our dutiful Deutscher.
Well, to cut a long story short, our jolly GI's stopped off at the
nearest bar or four and before long they'd forgotten all about your
hapless countryman.
Around about 10 at night one MP shouts: "Sheeet" (or whatever US MP's
shout when they're brain engages gear) "We've forgotten all about that
dumb kraut!"
"Aw, f*ck it", retorts his well-oiled chum, "He'll be long gone by this
time."
To cut more of this gripping tale short (I've had to miss out the
red-hot gypsies and the incident with the innkeepers daughter and the
General) MP 1 eventually persuades MP2 that they really ought to go back
to see if the German is still where they left him at 8am that morning.
(Americans are nothing if not solicitous).
Sure enough, when they found their drunken way back to the street corner
where they'd left him, there he was, still standing on _exactly_ the
same spot.
When they asked him why, to coin a phrase much used in this sceptered
isle, he hadn't "buggered off" hours ago, he politely replied that "an
order vos an order!"
Now an Englishman would have waited just long enough for the jeep to
vanish before "legging it" with all possible expedition. A Frenchman
would simply have shrugged his shoulders muttering "Je ne comprends pas,
monsieur!" and stalked off. An Italian would probably have said:
"Vaffunculo fuori di voi imbroglia!" and after saluting the Yanks with
his two best fingers, strolled (not run) off whistling a merry tune.
What a Russian would have done I leave to your imagination but I would
not be a bit surprised if it would not have resulted in what we Brits
call a "bit of a fracas".
But your good Berliner never budged a millimetre. No, to a "Good German"
"Befehle sind Befehle!"
I should get the hell out of there while you still can, Bazza. :-)
>As long as Del Baum apologises for calling Doddy a tosspot
No - shan't!
>I'll be back.
Is that a threat? <G>
--
Del "Inself Affe" Baum
Del Tree
<kbe...@u.washington.edu> wrote
>On 2/14/02 12:24 PM, in article ey9YnSJm...@spamfree.fsnet.co.uk, "Del
>Tree" <d...@spamfreeuser42nospam.freeuk.com> wrote:
>
>> Lee and AV meet in a press room...
>
>C'mon, Del. From the opening this joke had so much potential, but it turned
>out to be the same one you posted about a month ago.
Aren't good jokes worth repeating?
I can't speak for anyone else but I spilt my pants every time I read it
:-)
--
Del Tree
Del Tree
<prep...@hillsideprinting.com> wrote
I'm only following in the footsteps of my hero - Mr Gates.
"Windows is a 32-bit port of a 16-bit GUI for an 8-bit OS on a 4-bit >
CPU made by a 2-bit company that can't stand one bit of competition."
What's that if it's not recycling? :-)
--
Del Tree
Peggy
Peggy
"Del Tree" <d...@spamfreeuser42nospam.freeuk.com> wrote in message
news:UiWaTkJL...@spamfree.fsnet.co.uk...
Peggy
truly helpful and intelligent guys. But they didn't last long. They both
were angered by the complete ineptitude of the management staff, who were
only interested in call times and number of calls handled, and not at all
interested in solving problems, except in staffing the phones.
Of course the low pay was a factor, too, as well as the fact they were not
encouraged to learn the software they were supporting; they were supposed to
just say what was on the screen for that problem.
AV, I hope you're right; I long for the return of honest-to-god customer
service as it used to be before someone decided it was just another hassle
to be outsourced to the lowest bidder. I try to make a point of thanking
people for good work, and I try to complain constructively when they fall
short. But sometimes it's a bit like spitting in the ocean. Many
cumulatively we can make a difference in how customer support is handled. I
hope so!
Have a great weekend.
Peggy
"AV" <a...@sover.net> wrote in message news:3C6B90...@sover.net...
> micro serf wrote:
>
<snipped>
AV
a 'i've now missed it twice!' v
Allen Wessels
> service as it used to be before someone decided it was just another hassle
> to be outsourced to the lowest bidder. I try to make a point of thanking
> people for good work, and I try to complain constructively when they fall
> short. But sometimes it's a bit like spitting in the ocean. Many
> cumulatively we can make a difference in how customer support is handled. I
> hope so!
It isn't gonna happen. Too many customers want the rock bottom price.
That will not leave room for service a product oriented company can't
deilver efficiently anyway.
I've been on the retail side of the equation for 10 years. The customer
dictates the economics with their wallet.
- Allen
AV
> It isn't gonna happen. Too many customers want the rock bottom price.
> That will not leave room for service a product oriented company can't
> deilver efficiently anyway.
>
> I've been on the retail side of the equation for 10 years. The customer
> dictates the economics with their wallet.
>
Allen,
With all due respect, I have now faced the problem of simply trying to
find accurate information and clarification for two higher end scanners,
both from Microtek (Artixscan 2500 - listing at $4000) and Epson
(Expression 1650 - listing at $2300). (Including spending over an hour
with Microtek, just trying to find a dealer!) One would like to think
that built into THESE prices is 10 minutes of time with someone who
knows something about what they are trying to sell at relatively
high-end pricing.
But then, what do I know. I'm only a "consumer". Right?
av
Allen Wessels
> Allen,
> With all due respect, I have now faced the problem of simply trying to
> find accurate information and clarification for two higher end scanners,
> both from Microtek (Artixscan 2500 - listing at $4000) and Epson
> (Expression 1650 - listing at $2300). (Including spending over an hour
> with Microtek, just trying to find a dealer!) One would like to think
> that built into THESE prices is 10 minutes of time with someone who
> knows something about what they are trying to sell at relatively
> high-end pricing.
It is high-end pricing for consumer/prosumer scanners. It doesn't
scratch the botton of the professional products.
I understand you want the information you want. Everything these days
is merchandised on the basis of volume. You're simply asking a question
that few others are asking.
> But then, what do I know. I'm only a "consumer". Right?
Where are you located?
- Allen
AV
>
> It is high-end pricing for consumer/prosumer scanners. It doesn't
> scratch the botton of the professional products.
>
So?
Del Tree
Does that mean you'd like me to post it again - perhaps as a new thread
titled: "Blevins saves the Day"?
<g>
--
Del Tree
Del Tree
<pjco...@attbi.com> wrote
>Oh drat! NOW I find out you're ineffable. It's over between us, darling ...
For you I would stop being "ineffable", my Angel.
Sadly I think Mr Douglas does not hold me in anything like such high
regard as his choice of word might suggest.
In fact, I strongly suspect it was a typo...
What he probably meant to type was "unefable" - a little-know adjective
used to describe someone who is (apparently) immune from any insult and
refuses to take offence even when the foulest invective is employed
against them. As in: " Didn't I effin-well tell you to effin-well p*ss
off you effin effer?"
Which I shall now do... :-)
Love and kisses,
--
Del(unefable)Tree
Del Tree
I assume Allen means it's about money. It always has been and always
will be.
$4,000 may be a lot to you (and to me) but in this industry it's
peanuts.
Now, if you rang CreoScitex or any of the big players and said you
wanted to buy $8,000,000 worth of kit for 10 sites I think you'd be
staggered by the level of "Customer support" you got.
I can vividly remember working for a national publisher here in the UK
in the late 80's who placed orders of about that amount with several
pre-press manufacturers. The place was crawling with reps, technicians,
teaboys and assorted pointy-heads whose only question was: "how high do
you want me to jump today?" Before you could say "AV" we had more kit
in that place than you'll see at Drupa. Do you want to hear the really
rib-tickling bit? That Publisher went bust three months later without
having paid _any_ suppliers a single cent. Essentially they were using
millions of dollars worth of equipment for over 5 months including
mountains of consumables totally free of charge! Boy, did that open my
eyes to what a good corporate portfolio does and the _right_ contacts!
It's called "capitalism", AV. The more of it you have - or can pretend
to have (it amounts to the same thing) the better you are treated.
If that's what Allen meant I cannot see it changing either. Yes, there
will be some exceptions and hopefully there will always be the smaller
outfits who do care and don't penalise the little customer just because
his wallet's thinner, but they'll never be in the majority.
Live with it - we all have to!
Best wishes,
--
Del Tree
Michael Sullivan
With all due respect, you'd be wrong. Those aren't high end scanners.
High end scanners start at around $20-30K.
Anything below about $5K is pretty close to a commodity market. You are
only an interesting sales prospect if you plan to buy a couple dozen.
Margins on computer equipment are generally in the single digits.
Usually the low single digits. A technically competent person's time
can bill for $100+ per hour. You do the math.
Allen's right. Most people would rather pay $200 less than have a
slightly better service or sales experience. Part of the problem is
that it's hard to quantify the service/sales experience unless you buy a
lot from each of the companies in question.
The $200 price difference is in your pocket -- you *know* you have that.
You don't ever really know what your service experience is going to be
until something breaks. Paying more doesn't necessarily mean squat, as
the poor sap who posted about getting a bum impo program with shitty
service and support for more than the cost of Preps found out recently.
I'm not (and shouldn't be, if I want to make money) willing to pay more
for an equivalent product unless I've got a lot of evidence that service
will be better.
It's the whole reason groups like this can be so helpful, you can get a
certain amount of collective wisdom about companies and the way they do
business.
It's all about building a better world through usenet!
Michael
--
Michael Sullivan
Business Card Express of CT Thermographers to the Trade
Cheshire, CT mic...@bcect.com
mercedes mctaggart
> As long as Del Baum apologises for calling Doddy a tosspot
> I'll be back.
Take no notice, Barry. I bumped into Derek yesterday night and he was
wittering on about some bloke with your name and saying what a plonker
he thought he was (his words - not mine). I assume you are one and the
same - unless there are two Sidalls on this newsgroup?
Anyway, I've known Derek for yonks and he's quite harmless - apart
from being several bricks short of a hod he's really a nice bloke
outside work. The most irritating thing about the old twit is that you
never know when he's being serious and when he's not. It drives his
workmates up the wall.
But you wouldn't find a kinder bloke anywhere when it comes to helping
people out.
BTW, in case you're wondering, I work for the repro House Del uses so
I see him pretty often!
Yours,
AV
>
> In article <3C6C90...@sover.net>, AV <a...@sover.net> wrote
> >Allen Wessels wrote:
> >>
> >> It is high-end pricing for consumer/prosumer scanners. It doesn't
> >> scratch the botton of the professional products.
> >>
> >
> >So?
>
> I assume Allen means it's about money. It always has been and always
> will be.
>
> $4,000 may be a lot to you (and to me) but in this industry it's
> peanuts.
> Now, if you rang CreoScitex or any of the big players and said you
> wanted to buy $8,000,000 worth of kit for 10 sites I think you'd be
> staggered by the level of "Customer support" you got.
people people people, I was not asking for a week long, hotel-paid
seminar on my new scitex here. i was simply asking for clarification of
a specification that ALL OTHER scanner manufacturers make clear.
including that of MUCH MUCH lower end scanners.
that was my crime.
and i plead not guilty for it.
this has nothing whatsoever to do with the cost of the machine.
av
AV
>
> It's the whole reason groups like this can be so helpful, you can get a
> certain amount of collective wisdom about companies and the way they do
> business.
>
First read my other current post.
Then, if you want to be helpful, tell me the dynamic range for
reflective art for the Epson Expression 1650. I dare you.
av
Ken Beres
wrote:
> First read my other current post.
>
> Then, if you want to be helpful, tell me the dynamic range for
> reflective art for the Epson Expression 1650. I dare you.
The dynamic range of the Epson 1650 is 3.6. Everybody knows that.
--
Ken Beres
AV
> Live with it - we all have to!
Sorry Del, but your comments are completely beside the point and, if I
may say so, patronizing as well. This is simply not a matter of my
needing an education of the ways of the world, of which I am much too
aware.
It IS a matter of miscomprehension on Epson's part. Whether this has to
do with their hiring morons, or CSR's not caring, or their trying to
"dupe" me into believing I was actually talking to a "scanner
specialist, has no bearing on this at all.
I just late today got a phone message from someone in their Customer
Connection department, who diligently did research for my question.
That she has spent 3 days researching the wrong question, again, has
nothing to do with the fact that this scanner only costs $2300, and
everything to do with her not listening and/or understanding.
THAT was the purpose of my original post. Not that I expected the world
from them. But that I expected them to HEAR a question phrased in
ENGLISH and respond in kind.
Now if you wish to speak to THAT, you have my permission.
a 'who feels just too educated sometimes if he does say so himself' v
AV
Sounds like you just looked it up on the website. That's easy. I know
how to do that. But how do you know it is a spec for reflective art?
They don't give that determination.
Pardon my suspicion (which is what motivated me at the start) but there
is currently no flatbed scanner at that price range that can perform
such a high range. The fact that they also provide a transparency
adapter, albeit as an option, tells me that they are giving the highest
possible spec, which is always the transparency range, but glibly
without specifying such. That is all I have been trying, vainly, to
clarify.
If it IS 3.6, then the question is how come everytime I ask someone
there (I've now talked with 4 different people) if the spec is for
reflective or transparent art, they act like they don't know what I'm
talking about?
a 'who understands English rather well and hopes other Americans would
join this exciting new hobby' v
Dietmar Kopp
> Sounds like you just looked it up on the website. That's easy. I know
> how to do that. But how do you know it is a spec for reflective art?
> They don't give that determination.
>
> Pardon my suspicion (which is what motivated me at the start) but there
> is currently no flatbed scanner at that price range that can perform
> such a high range. The fact that they also provide a transparency
> adapter, albeit as an option, tells me that they are giving the highest
> possible spec, which is always the transparency range, but glibly
> without specifying such. That is all I have been trying, vainly, to
> clarify.
>
> If it IS 3.6, then the question is how come everytime I ask someone
> there (I've now talked with 4 different people) if the spec is for
> reflective or transparent art, they act like they don't know what I'm
> talking about?
This seems a bit of a moot question to me: Reflective art (you probably want to
scan photographs) rarely have an optical density over 2.3 - if you are lucky and
get a really really really good print you might get 2.6.
Film or transparencies have typically a Dmax of 3.3 to 3.8 - but keep in mind
that all the useful (and reproducible) densities are typically smaller than 2.2.
The scanner specs (dmax) usually indicate range of (log) light intensities from
the brightest to the dimmest it can capture. Since the same capture device is
used both for reflective and transmissive scanning, Epson is right with the
information they gave you. You just need to find something printed with an
optical density of 3.6 to test it out.
Regards
Dietmar Kopp
The Image Works
Allen Wessels
So you get consumer support. You know, like you get at Fries or Circuit
City.
Try and get tech specs on "high end" audio or video equipment.
- Allen
Allen Wessels
Del Tree <d...@spamfreeuser42nospam.freeuk.com> wrote:
> If that's what Allen meant I cannot see it changing either. Yes, there
> will be some exceptions and hopefully there will always be the smaller
> outfits who do care and don't penalise the little customer just because
> his wallet's thinner, but they'll never be in the majority.
Yep. The small guys won't be able to afford to stay in. They can't buy
in the volume needed to compete. The business model is moving to a la
carte. Even at the high end, where I am seeing unbundling on
platesetter packages.
Well, if AV hadn't clipped part of my message, he'd have answered my
question about where he is located.
Being on the inside of the retail channel, I do have a few connections.
No guarantees, but a shot.
- Allen
RSD99
(1) Buy the da*n thing, and on your purchase order specifically state the "dynamic range =
3.6" specification;
(2) Measure the dynamic range;
(3) Sue them, or report them to "some government Bureaucracy that will raise hell for
false advertising (FTC ?)" if it is a delta less than 3.6 D-min to D-max.
- - - - -
"AV" <a...@sover.net> wrote in message news:3C6CEA...@sover.net...
AV
A shot for what? I don't understand what you are trying to offer.
I wasn't asking for any help.
The silliness of this thread is well, silly. I only posted the post to
show how the expression of a simple declarative English sentence was not
getting heard. No one, during any of the exchanges that I had showed any
understanding of the sentence. They certainly understood the word
"dynamic range" but oddly appeared unable to understand my question to
differentiate the spec.
To my mind this was not necessarily an unwillingness to NOT answer the
question as you, and so many others, have jumped to conclude. They WERE
trying, ableit idiotically. It was also possibly a matter of my patience
as well to hang up after being forwarded to the 4th person, and waiting
vainly for another 10 minutes for someone to answer the phone! After 45
minutes on the phone for a simple question, I do have my limits!
So all this energy to castigate me for assuming that I could get any
answers in the first place doesn't jive with the fact that, at least,
they were (and still ARE) trying.
As for me being silly, or ill-informed, to even ask the question in the
first place, I guess one is entitled to their opinions. I'm just glad
that those folks aren't in tech support. ("You want to know what?
hoo-hee haahaha")
And I'm sorry Allen, but your obviously strong opinion that I should not
expect tech support (or technical answers) just doesn't jive with
experience. I'm currently going through another situation with an ATI
Radeon card that is not allowing (holding) the correct resolution
setting for a second monitor. While I have been PLEADING with ATI to
just break their rule and give me my money back and I'll go elsewhere,
they have refused and have been giving me support after support after
support after support. I think I must be up to at least 3 1/2 hours of
total phone time over this. (2 hours alone with one guy on one call, and
he stayed after hours to finish with me.) I'm also at the point myself
to say I'll just sacrifice the damn $150 and throw the card out! So, for
$150 I'm getting an awful lot of tech support, don't you think?
a 'in the northeast, miles from anywhere' v
Allen Wessels
> A shot for what? I don't understand what you are trying to offer.
> I wasn't asking for any help.
Depending on where you are located, there are smaller vertical market
distributors that are better at getting this sort of information, often
better than even than first tier technical support.
> The silliness of this thread is well, silly. I only posted the post to
> show how the expression of a simple declarative English sentence was not
> getting heard. No one, during any of the exchanges that I had showed any
> understanding of the sentence. They certainly understood the word
> "dynamic range" but oddly appeared unable to understand my question to
> differentiate the spec.
Their understanding is often shaped by their experience. It may well be
that they assumed the spec applied to both scanning modes.
> To my mind this was not necessarily an unwillingness to NOT answer the
> question as you, and so many others, have jumped to conclude. They WERE
> trying, ableit idiotically. It was also possibly a matter of my patience
> as well to hang up after being forwarded to the 4th person, and waiting
> vainly for another 10 minutes for someone to answer the phone! After 45
> minutes on the phone for a simple question, I do have my limits!
Getting these sorts of answers is part of my job description. I
understand the frustration.
> So all this energy to castigate me for assuming that I could get any
> answers in the first place doesn't jive with the fact that, at least,
> they were (and still ARE) trying.
The criticism is not about your expectation of an answer. It is about
your apparent expectations for a particular level of support
responsiveness.
> As for me being silly, or ill-informed, to even ask the question in the
> first place, I guess one is entitled to their opinions. I'm just glad
> that those folks aren't in tech support. ("You want to know what?
> hoo-hee haahaha")
Asking a question is never wrong. Expecting a particular result can
certainly be at odds with industry standards.
> And I'm sorry Allen, but your obviously strong opinion that I should not
> expect tech support (or technical answers) just doesn't jive with
> experience. I'm currently going through another situation with an ATI
> Radeon card that is not allowing (holding) the correct resolution
> setting for a second monitor. While I have been PLEADING with ATI to
> just break their rule and give me my money back and I'll go elsewhere,
> they have refused and have been giving me support after support after
> support after support. I think I must be up to at least 3 1/2 hours of
> total phone time over this. (2 hours alone with one guy on one call, and
> he stayed after hours to finish with me.) I'm also at the point myself
> to say I'll just sacrifice the damn $150 and throw the card out! So, for
> $150 I'm getting an awful lot of tech support, don't you think?
I suppose that depends on how you define technical support.
Are you asking customer service to take the card back, or technical
support?
I've spent *days* with technical support on issues. I've even told a
manufacturer that I refused to continue working on a technical issue and
referred a customer back to the manufacturer, and I was the authorized
repair center. In a couple of cases, after 10s of hours, the
manufacturer coughed up a brand new replacement item.
The people in technical support don't have magical resources. They
usually have access to the company web site, manuals for the product, a
technical support script, and a database. Quite often they *don't* have
access to engineering. For some products, engineering may be on a
another continent and 1st tier tech support may not even have access.
I have no beef with what you're doing. My objection is that you seem to
think that this situation shouldn't be as it is. My response to that is
that the market shapes the relationship and in today's market, decision
makers are rewarded for cutting costs in the face of decreasing margins.
- Allen
AV
>
> In article <3C6D9B...@sover.net>, AV <a...@sover.net> wrote:
>
> > A shot for what? I don't understand what you are trying to offer.
> > I wasn't asking for any help.
>
> Depending on where you are located, there are smaller vertical market
> distributors that are better at getting this sort of information, often
> better than even than first tier technical support.
Perhaps. But then you should understand that one of the reasons that I
returned the Artixscanner to this sort of smaller vertial market
distributor was, in part, due to their stating, in pre-sales, that they
could and would fully support it, yet when I called their tech support
to ask one simple question, I barely finished the sentence "I just
bought an Artiscan 2500 from you..." when he interrupted me and said
that he was not trained on the scanner. It got worse from there,
including the firing of the tech staff person at Microtek that was this
smaller vertical market distributor's contact.
> > The silliness of this thread is well, silly. I only posted the post to
> > show how the expression of a simple declarative English sentence was not
> > getting heard. No one, during any of the exchanges that I had showed any
> > understanding of the sentence. They certainly understood the word
> > "dynamic range" but oddly appeared unable to understand my question to
> > differentiate the spec.
>
> Their understanding is often shaped by their experience. It may well be
> that they assumed the spec applied to both scanning modes.
Duh. But when I probed them, in clear English, they couldn't even tell
me that the didn't understand the question let alone explain to me where
they were coming from.
> > So all this energy to castigate me for assuming that I could get any
> > answers in the first place doesn't jive with the fact that, at least,
> > they were (and still ARE) trying.
>
> The criticism is not about your expectation of an answer. It is about
> your apparent expectations for a particular level of support
> responsiveness.
>
My expectation is NOT for a particular level of support responsiveness
in the least.
It was for a particular clarifcation based on industry standard, or at
least the standard that I have been seeing elsewhere.
> > As for me being silly, or ill-informed, to even ask the question in the
> > first place, I guess one is entitled to their opinions. I'm just glad
> > that those folks aren't in tech support. ("You want to know what?
> > hoo-hee haahaha")
>
> Asking a question is never wrong. Expecting a particular result can
> certainly be at odds with industry standards.
It is not at all. See above.
>
> > And I'm sorry Allen, but your obviously strong opinion that I should not
> > expect tech support (or technical answers) just doesn't jive with
> > experience. I'm currently going through another situation with an ATI
> > Radeon card that is not allowing (holding) the correct resolution
> > setting for a second monitor. While I have been PLEADING with ATI to
> > just break their rule and give me my money back and I'll go elsewhere,
> > they have refused and have been giving me support after support after
> > support after support. I think I must be up to at least 3 1/2 hours of
> > total phone time over this. (2 hours alone with one guy on one call, and
> > he stayed after hours to finish with me.) I'm also at the point myself
> > to say I'll just sacrifice the damn $150 and throw the card out! So, for
> > $150 I'm getting an awful lot of tech support, don't you think?
>
> I suppose that depends on how you define technical support.
What's your point? In response to your chastisement that I expect too
much tech support (i.e. a simple question) for a $2300 scanner, I give
you an example of HOURS and HOURS of tech support (questions and answers
and trials and replacement cards - which they personally tested befor
shipping out) for a mere $150 card. Doesn't matter the definition. We're
talking time and we're talking money. That is the point of your whole
arguement!
> Are you asking customer service to take the card back, or technical
> support?
>
Both. Not the lower level c.s. but the manager in quality assurance. He
offered as much IF they couldn't help me get it working. I've only
pressed the point after another hour or so, 2 more people I had to
explain the problem to, a replacement card, etc etc.
> I've spent *days* with technical support on issues. I've even told a
> manufacturer that I refused to continue working on a technical issue and
> referred a customer back to the manufacturer, and I was the authorized
> repair center. In a couple of cases, after 10s of hours, the
> manufacturer coughed up a brand new replacement item.
>
> The people in technical support don't have magical resources. They
> usually have access to the company web site, manuals for the product, a
> technical support script, and a database. Quite often they *don't* have
> access to engineering. For some products, engineering may be on a
> another continent and 1st tier tech support may not even have access.
>
but but, sputter sputter, I AM TALKING ABOUT THE COMPANY TECH SUPPORT
both at Epson and ATI!!!
> I have no beef with what you're doing. My objection is that you seem to
> think that this situation shouldn't be as it is. My response to that is
> that the market shapes the relationship and in today's market, decision
> makers are rewarded for cutting costs in the face of decreasing margins.
>
And I think you are too quick to generalize what I am experiencing and
rationalize it to some sort of vague industry norm. That I have managed
to encounter idiots at Epson, and dare to "expose" it on
comp.publish.prepress says more to the human condition than anything
like an industry norm.
av
Allen Wessels
> Allen Wessels wrote:
> > The people in technical support don't have magical resources. They
> > usually have access to the company web site, manuals for the product, a
> > technical support script, and a database. Quite often they *don't* have
> > access to engineering. For some products, engineering may be on a
> > another continent and 1st tier tech support may not even have access.
> >
>
> but but, sputter sputter, I AM TALKING ABOUT THE COMPANY TECH SUPPORT
> both at Epson and ATI!!!
I'm not sure what your response means here.
> And I think you are too quick to generalize what I am experiencing and
> rationalize it to some sort of vague industry norm. That I have managed
> to encounter idiots at Epson, and dare to "expose" it on
> comp.publish.prepress says more to the human condition than anything
> like an industry norm.
*I* am a tech support person who regularly contacts the tech support
staff for a very large number of manufacturers. I've been doing the
tech support gig since 1985.
"Managing" to find "idiots" in tech support is not a particularly
noteworthy accomplishment and does not represent any sort of expose.
I am not chastizing you nor am I attempting to censor you. It just
seems to me that based on my experience in the industry, you are setting
yourself up for a lot of grief if this is representative of your
expectations.
- Allen
AV
Allen,
I think we just ought to end this here. Your presumptions at my lack of
experience in this, that I am only just now discovering something, or
for that matter a virgin at talking to tech support is a rather
difficult burden for me to keep responding to.
I think I have clarified what I am talking about to the best of my
typing fingered ability and wish to end this right........now.
G'luck
av
Derek Tree
>I think I have clarified what I am talking about to the best of my
>typing fingered ability and wish to end this right........now.
I couldn't agree more.
Decrying the reality of what passes for tech support nowadays and
accepting it supinely as an unalterable fact are two different things in
my book.
FWIW I both applaud your tenacity and respect your optimism. If we all
become cynics and don't even try (politely) to put a rocket up these
folks bottoms by _demanding_ something better than what most of them
consider to be "appropriate" support things will get even worse.
Do yourself and us all a favour, AV, old chum, take Allen's remarks with
a pinch of salt and keep giving 'em hell.
Best wishes,
--
Derek Tree
Allen Wessels
Derek Tree <nos...@sanspam.freeuk.com> wrote:
> I couldn't agree more.
> Decrying the reality of what passes for tech support nowadays and
> accepting it supinely as an unalterable fact are two different things in
> my book.
It is quite alterable. Just tell everyone you know to buy things for a
fair price so that resellers can afford to give you that support.
> FWIW I both applaud your tenacity and respect your optimism. If we all
> become cynics and don't even try (politely) to put a rocket up these
> folks bottoms by _demanding_ something better than what most of them
> consider to be "appropriate" support things will get even worse.
Demand all you want. If the profits from selling the product do not
cover this extra support, you will *not* get it. But you may feel
better so by all means go for it.
> Do yourself and us all a favour, AV, old chum, take Allen's remarks with
> a pinch of salt and keep giving 'em hell.
The funny thing is that I get *paid* to talk to the goobers that man
tech support lines so it is no skin off my nose if it takes hours to get
the information I need.
I don't think most people are in that position and usually it isn't cost
effective to spend those hours.
Good luck anyway...
- Allen
J. Costello
<awes...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>It isn't gonna happen. Too many customers want the rock bottom price.
>That will not leave room for service a product oriented company can't
>deilver efficiently anyway.
>
>I've been on the retail side of the equation for 10 years. The customer
>dictates the economics with their wallet.
>
>- Allen
Kinda pisses off those of us who pay the extra bucks for 3 year
service though.
Ask anyone to compare a major computer corp's customer service 5 or 6
years ago to today. You will not hear that it has improved.
J. Costello
Allen Wessels
J. Costello <cost...@nac.net> wrote:
> Kinda pisses off those of us who pay the extra bucks for 3 year
> service though.
Yep, and that is why fewer people pay for the extra. And part of the
reason why support gets less useful over time.
I pay for service when I can't afford to easily replace the item to be
covered.
> Ask anyone to compare a major computer corp's customer service 5 or 6
> years ago to today. You will not hear that it has improved.
Yes, but some do stay near the top.
Ya gotta understand, computer support sucks. You own problems that are
mostly the customer's issue. I have it relatively easy because keeping
a station stable is in the customer's interest.
Even then I get people upgrading their OS and then complain to me that
their gazillion devices and software doodads don't work.
- Allen
J. Costello
<awes...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
>Ya gotta understand, computer support sucks. You own problems that are
>mostly the customer's issue. I have it relatively easy because keeping
>a station stable is in the customer's interest.
But being the "best of the worst" isn't really an accomplishment that
customers appreciate.
J. Costello
Paul Harris
Wessels <awes...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> Ya gotta understand, computer support sucks.
This is not always true. I just bought my second Lexmark PS laser
printer, a decision based at least partially on the great customer
support I received on the first one.
Paul Harris
Allen Wessels
Paul Harris <p.ha...@workworks.ca> wrote:
> This is not always true. I just bought my second Lexmark PS laser
> printer, a decision based at least partially on the great customer
> support I received on the first one.
A printer is somewhat easier to support than a computer platform that
runs a variety of applications.
- Allen
Allen Wessels
J. Costello <cost...@nac.net> wrote:
> But being the "best of the worst" isn't really an accomplishment that
> customers appreciate.
Worst compared to what? If the comparison is to what you got 18 months
ago, that's ancient history.
The market dictates what you get with the box. If everyone was buying
from the best servicing manufacturer, the others would fall in line. As
it is the customer buys the box with the biggest Ghz and the lowest
price.
This is also the customer that doesn't read the manual, doesn't know how
to use a manual as a reference guide, and thinks that just because
someone on the block can do something the manufacturer of the box is
required to help the customer clean up the mess they've made of their
machine.
- Allen
Paul Harris
Wessels <awes...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> A printer is somewhat easier to support than a computer platform that
> runs a variety of applications.
Of course, but the original topic in this thread was relating to poor
support (or lack of info from sales/support) on a scanner, another
peripheral, not a computer platform. Therefore, I think my comment is
germane to the discussion.
PH
micro serf
Not quite so true anymore with the new generation of copier/printers
with tons of finishing and feed options. Then you get the call "I
cannot get the printer to fold/staple/punch/mutilate running your
driver from this application". This throws you back in application
hell, driver hell, rogue DLLs, pebcak (problem exists between chair
and keyboard) OS dependencies, etc.
micro serf
ms...@pacbell.net
Ken Beres
wrote:
> Sounds like you just looked it up on the website. That's easy. I know
> how to do that. But how do you know it is a spec for reflective art?
> They don't give that determination.
No, I called Epson tech support. :->
--
Ken Beres
Allen Wessels
Ken Beres <kbe...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
FYI the spec is for the scanner. If refelctive art had the same color
fidelity as transmissive, the spec would apply to it.
- Allen
Barry Siddall
> Kenny Everett
> Peter Cook
> Peter Sellers
> Tommy Cooper
> Ronny Barker
> Les Dawson
> Bernard Manning
> Benny Hill
> Dom Joly
> Leonard Rossiter
> Rowan Atkinson
>
> PPSS.
>
> Compared to that list Ken Dodd isn't even in the running. If you
> genuinely like the man that's your affair, but I doubt very much if
> history will agree with you. Aside from his ridiculous appearance and
> childish theatrically he has contributed less than nothing to the
> development of comedy or satire.
Oh dear, no mention of Spike here. RIP.
Derek Tree
<ba...@siddall.de> wrote
Took you a while, Herr Siddall.
But if it makes your any happier I will admit I overlooked Mr Milligan.
My deepest apologies to you both :-)
--
Derek Tree
Jono Moore
wrote on 2/27/02 10:55 AM:
> Oh dear, no mention of Spike here. RIP.
I thought you and Del were out to lunch 'til I heard on the news that Spike
had died. Very sad.
I would like to recommend an excellent book that was given to me a couple of
years ago: "The Goons: The Story". Written, I believe, mostly by Spike and
Sir Harry but also credits Eric Sykes, Denis Norden and the _real_
Bluebottle. It's a large coffee-table format book.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1852276797/qid=1015000621/sr=1-1/ref=
sr_1_1/104-9909008-6323109
...Jono
Barry Siddall
Took you a while, Herr Siddall.
But if it makes your any happier I will admit I overlooked Mr Milligan.
My deepest apologies to you both :-)
your list ?!?! I must admit to visiting and p***ing myself laughing
at his Embassy Club, twice, but his stuff is so disgusting to be honest.
He could never be compared to Doddy. Fat slob, not a nice bloke.
Barry
P.S. My new site is up next week. In german, of course, for you no
problem. I wouldn't expect LeeB to be very "begeistert". I`m offering
proof that Color Management works!
Derek Tree
<ba...@siddall.de> wrote
>Just had to cool it a bit, Del. How did Bernard Manning get on
>your list ?!?!
Because he is a very clever and talented man with considerably more to
him that either his fans or his detractors realize.
>I must admit to visiting and p***ing myself laughing
>at his Embassy Club, twice, but his stuff is so disgusting to be honest.
>He could never be compared to Doddy. Fat slob, not a nice bloke.
Actually, you couldn't be more wrong. I met Bernard on two occasions
quite unconnected with his work and found him to be one of the most
generous and kind men you could wish to meet. I have also seen him
interviewed. It's all an "act" with him - very controlled and very
deliberate.
You may not know that he has given _thousands_ to various charitable
causes but unlike many of his contemporaries he does not make a song and
dance about it. I wish there were more men like Bernard in the world.
_Never_ judge a book by it's cover, Bazza, especially a book that is in
the public eye. I also spent time with John Lennon and George Harrison
but I won't tell you what opinion I formed of either of them. See how
little one really knows about people? And you thought I was just a
pre-press tyro with a strange sense of humour! :-)
>P.S. My new site is up next week. In german, of course, for you no
>problem. I wouldn't expect LeeB to be very "begeistert". I`m offering
>proof that Color Management works!
Don't hold your breath...
mfg,
--
Derek Tree
Derek Tree
<prep...@hillsideprinting.com> wrote
>I thought you and Del were out to lunch 'til I heard on the news that Spike
>had died. Very sad.
Yes it is. Let us hope he is now happier and with those who appreciate
his unique abilities rather more than many did in this world :-)
>I would like to recommend an excellent book that was given to me a couple of
>years ago: "The Goons: The Story". Written, I believe, mostly by Spike and
>Sir Harry but also credits Eric Sykes, Denis Norden and the _real_
>Bluebottle. It's a large coffee-table format book.
Got it - excellent! :-)
Best,
--
Derek Tree