Post modern? Deconstructionalist?
Dave Palmer
If these are two words you'd use to describe your taste or "style" then maybe you
should check out our (maga)zine. Upstate (maga)zine is a paper based magazine that's
primary focus is on the bizarre, avant garde, deconstructionalist design. Our new
issue (#7) is about to be printed, and in this issue are several opinion pieces about
the design/publishing industry, opinions on artistic conformity and an interview with
the art director of Internet Underground. Also, Upstate is full of bizarre design,
strange/disturbing layouts and other random pieces of jibberish.
Upstate #7 costs $2post-paid
Upstate data: 1 color, 9" x 12", sheet fed offset printed.
U p s t a t e
P.O. Box 117
Sherrill, New York 13461-1208
mailto:upst...@dreamscape.com
http://www.dreamscape.com/upstate1/
p.s. WE ARE ALWAYS LOOKING FOR CONTRIBUTORS! GO TO OUR SITE (submission guidelines)AND LEARN
HOW TO GET INVOLVED!!!
Chris Gray
Sorry, I'm still with ther modernists (Gaudi 'n' all that). And your
deconstructionalists are just a bunch of pathetic windbags using long
words as a fig leaf for their own creative impotence.
Good luck with the magazine though. :)
--
__________________________________________________________________________
Chris Gray Chris...@bcs.org.uk Compuserve: 100065,2102
http://columbia.digiweb.com/kiffer/chris_gray/
Note: The "From:" address in the header is wrong. Use the "Reply to:".
__________________________________________________________________________
pbe...@usa.pipeline.com
On Jun 20, 1996 07:35:48 in article <Re: Post modern?
Deconstructionalist?>, 'cg...@btmaa.bel.alcatel.be (Chris Gray)' wrote:
>Sorry, I'm still with ther modernists (Gaudi 'n' all that). And your
>deconstructionalists are just a bunch of pathetic windbags using long
>words as a fig leaf for their own creative impotence.
>
>Good luck with the magazine though. :)
US reading scores is directly correlated to the modern changes in print
layout.
Daniel P. B. Smith
In article <4qbj8d$8...@news2.h1.usa.pipeline.com>,
<pbe...@usa.pipeline.com> wrote:
>You know, there are studies being conducted to determine if the decline in
>US reading scores is directly correlated to the modern changes in print
>layout.
Nah, it's because offset printing isn't as crisp as letterpress. :-)
--
Daniel P. B. Smith
dpbs...@world.std.com
Dan Hillman
In article <31C891...@dreamscape.com>,
Dave Palmer <upst...@dreamscape.com> wrote:
>If these are two words you'd use to describe your taste or "style" then maybe you
>should check out our (maga)zine.
Poorly formatted? Over 80 characters?
If these are two phrases folks would use to describe your posting "style"
then maybe you should check out your manual.
Don't quit your job at Starbucks.
--
Daniel Hillman
dca...@cus.cam.ac.uk
http://131.111.153.14/students/hillman/
Ian Kemmish
In article <4qeotd$q...@news2.h1.usa.pipeline.com>, pbe...@usa.pipeline.co
says...
>
>BTW, letterpress is too modern. Linoleum block offset, that's the way we
>need to go ;-)
Maybe someone could develop a RIP that drove a Puma robot wielding a scalpel
and cutting shapes out of lino.
============================================================================
Ian Kemmish 18 Durham Close, Biggleswade, Beds SG18 8HZ
i...@five-d.com Tel: +44 1767 601 361 Fax: +44 1767 312 006
Info on Jaws and 5D's other products on http://www.five-d.com/5d
============================================================================
`The customer is King, but the proprietor is God'
Paula
On Jun 21, 1996 17:10:45 in article <Re: Post modern?
Deconstructionalist?>, 'dpbs...@world.std.com (Daniel P. B. Smith)' wrote:
>Nah, it's because offset printing isn't as crisp as letterpress. :-)
Ahhh, give me back the days of the engraved plates....
Seriously though, I spent quite a number of years producing scientific
books - the kind where perhaps 7 people on this planet understood what the
author was talking about (I'm more serious about this than it sounds.)
ALL books at this level were designed in a very specific way, Times Roman,
27 x 44 pica page. The reason was readability. The stuff was hard enough
to understand that studies were done as to the most readable format and
type face. The above reflected the results of those studies.
I DO understand that the print media, these days, is finding itself trying
to compete with the heavy graphics out there represented by TV, computers,
etc. However, in our quest to make the print page exciting enough to make
someone look away from the TV perhaps we are losing the best thing print
always had going for it - the idea it was trying to convey rather than the
way it was conveying it.
Paula
On Jun 21, 1996 19:58:38 in article <Re: Post modern?
Deconstructionalist?>, 'i...@five-d.com (Ian Kemmish)' wrote:
>Maybe someone could develop a RIP that drove a Puma robot wielding a
scalpel
>and cutting shapes out of lino.
Dave Palmer
Chris Gray wrote:
>
> Sorry, I'm still with ther modernists (Gaudi 'n' all that). And your
> deconstructionalists are just a bunch of pathetic windbags using long
> words as a fig leaf for their own creative impotence.
>
> Good luck with the magazine though. :)
>
> __________________________________________________________________________
>
> Chris Gray Chris...@bcs.org.uk Compuserve: 100065,2102
> http://columbia.digiweb.com/kiffer/chris_gray/
> Note: The "From:" address in the header is wrong. Use the "Reply to:".
> __________________________________________________________________________
Hmmm, I love these neo-conservatives, so affraid of their world being horribly
disrupted because there are a few brave souls who are willing to ask the
question "why does it have to be like this?"
Change is good my friend. We've been doing it your way for far too long. Its time
for the proverbial monkey wrench. I invite you to read what we have to say.
We feel that the old fashioned ways of design are dead, and overly corporatized.
All we want to do is destroy everything the publishing and design industry
stand for. It deserves to be destroyed. Destruction isn't bad, its also not
catastrophic. It allows you to rebuild. Build something better. Then in time
you destroy it again. Its a cycle. Getting yourself stuck into one method, one
look, one way of being, and you die, you turn to dust. Constant destruction and
rebirth keeps things new.
--Dave Palmer
co-publisher Upstate 'zine.
p.s. gee, thanks for getting so nasty! Do I know you? Have I wronged you
in some way?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| upstate 'zine | 283 Betsinger road | Sherrill, NY 13461-1208 |
| upst...@dreamscape.com http://www.dreamscape.com/upstate1/ |
| "As your attorney, I advise you to slow down. I can't keep up!" |
| Fear & Loathing in Las Vegas -- Hunter S. Thompson |
|=============================================================================
Dave Palmer
pbe...@usa.pipeline.com wrote:
>
> On Jun 20, 1996 07:35:48 in article <Re: Post modern?
> Deconstructionalist?>, 'cg...@btmaa.bel.alcatel.be (Chris Gray)' wrote:
>
>
> >Sorry, I'm still with ther modernists (Gaudi 'n' all that). And your
> >deconstructionalists are just a bunch of pathetic windbags using long
> >words as a fig leaf for their own creative impotence.
> >
> >Good luck with the magazine though. :)
>
> US reading scores is directly correlated to the modern changes in print
> layout.
You want to know what is causing the decline in reading scores? The fact that
they don't teach reading in school. They teach fluff classes, that have no bearing
on real life. I don't want to get into a debate into what should be taught in
schools, but....this "study" is just a mask, they are skirting the REAL issue.
Design, especially design that challenges the reader, that allows the reader
to interprit meaning would stimulate thought. It's time to stop holding hands
with our readers. They are smarter than you think. Let them interprit, let them
formulate their own meanings!
Jeez, I was just posting for our little magazine, I didn't want to make this
a big "thing." Why don't you check it out. It will get you nice and pissed off!
**disclaimer, these are my opinions, therefore directly reflect the opinions
expressed in Upstate 'zine**
--Dave Palmer
co-publisher, Upstate 'zine
Dave Palmer
Ummm, yeah, now that made a lot of sense.
I'm so glad there are people out there
who do absolutely NOTHING, except go to there jobs and sit around and complain
whenever anyone dares to be a little different. My god, let me ask you, what
have you done? At least we are out there trying to do something expressive, and
offer lesser known ARTISTS an opportunity to get published. Also, I'll have you
know, incase you thought you were being cool by posting a nasty letter in response
to some "big" "corporate" magazine or some such thing. Guess what! We do this
NOT FOR PROFIT. We do it because we love it.
Don't quit my job at Starbucks? Hmmm, I'm so glad you know me. What the hell is
that supposed to mean?
You know what, this just goes to show how close minded and shut off people are to
things and ideas that are not like thier own. Obviously not a place of open and free
thought. Its do it like the text book or be damned.
kindest and warmest regards,
Dave Palmer co-publisher:Upstate
Ulrich Mayring
Dave Palmer <upst...@dreamscape.com> writes:
>All we want to do is destroy everything the publishing and design industry
>stand for. It deserves to be destroyed. Destruction isn't bad, its also not
>catastrophic. It allows you to rebuild. Build something better. Then in time
>you destroy it again. Its a cycle. Getting yourself stuck into one method, one
>look, one way of being, and you die, you turn to dust. Constant destruction and
>rebirth keeps things new.
If that's what you want to do, good luck - surely you are right about the
cyclic nature of art. However, you are not right about the cyclic nature
of typesetting. The former serves its own purpose, the latter serves the
purpose of readability. So it all depends in what way you want people to
consume your magazine.
Ulrich
--
RL[tm]: Ulrich (Uli) Mayring *** IRC: ulim
ul...@freebsd.first.gmd.de *** http://coli.uni-sb.de/~ulim/
Robert Ebert
Ian Kemmish wrote:
>
> In article <4qeotd$q...@news2.h1.usa.pipeline.com>, pbe...@usa.pipeline.co
> says...
> >
>
> >need to go ;-)
>
> and cutting shapes out of lino.
>
*grin*..Been there, done it...4 years ago we built a 20 mw laser engraver
driven by a 386 running CorelDraw..I have several very nice lino
engravings done from Corel vector art...
--
Robert Ebert, V.P. (503) 228-4926 "So many toys, So little time"
Computer Tools, Inc. Portland, OR Home of CyberGrafx® NT Workstations
dba CyberGrafx® Corporation http://www.comptools.com/~comptool/
3D Studio MAX animation, interactive CD-ROM design and production for PCs
A net based PC and Mac imagesetting and interactive design service bureau
Dan Hillman
In article <31CBF6...@dreamscape.com>,
Dave Palmer <upst...@dreamscape.com> wrote:
>
>I'm so glad there are people out there
>who do absolutely NOTHING, except go to there jobs and sit around and complain
>whenever anyone dares to be a little different. My god, let me ask you, what
>have you done?
For a start, I've passed third-grade English class and learned to
configure my software. I've also learned not to quote the entire article
I'm following up to. Aren't you jealous?
>At least we are out there trying to do something expressive, and
>offer lesser known ARTISTS an opportunity to get published.
And what an absolutely huge favor you're doing all of them by putting
your best foot forward on their behalf. If you're unwilling to take care
to ensure that your magazine's advertising is of high quality, what
reason should I, or any sentient being, have to check out your URL?
Without bothering to crank up my browser I already know that it's going
to be full of poorly-formatted, poorly-spelled, poorly edited,
pretentious tripe.
>Also, I'll have you
>know, incase you thought you were being cool by posting a nasty letter in response
>to some "big" "corporate" magazine or some such thing. Guess what! We do this
>NOT FOR PROFIT. We do it because we love it.
Oooh, I feel so shamed. Look, deconstruction-boy, I don't care if you're
setting type for Mother Theresa, your software is still set incorrectly,
and your spelling and grammar are substandard. In a written forum these
are Bad Things because that's how we decide what to think about you and
what you have to say. Given that you co-publish a magazine and yet you
can't seem to figure this out, I'd say that speaks volumes about the
quality we can expect from your efforts.
And, just so you know, I'm not taking you to task because I'm paid for
it. I'm doing it because I love it. I can already imagine you frothing
at the mouth, spluttering in artistic indignation. I can almost smell
the clove cigarettes, hear the Nirvana, and see the clock on your VCR
flashing 12:00, 12:00, 12:00...
>Don't quit my job at Starbucks? Hmmm, I'm so glad you know me. What the hell is
>that supposed to mean?
It means that you're an idiot, Sparky. Your inattention to detail
suggest that you've never held down a job at Kinkos or anywhere else
even remotely related to the prepress industry. Your inabilities with
grammar indicate that you aren't managerial material. Unless you're a
boomerang boy living with your folks, I suspect that you hold some sort
of menial job in the food service industry. With your pretentious
subject line, I figured Starbucks was more your style than "Would you
like fries with that, Sir?"
>You know what, this just goes to show how close minded and shut off people are to
>things and ideas that are not like thier own. Obviously not a place of open and free
>thought. Its do it like the text book or be damned.
Breaking the rules properly requires knowing them in the first place.
When a press operator screws up on registration I don't care if they
think it's art; I bounce the job. The only "statement" you're making
with your poorly-formatted text and creative spelling is that you are an
idiot who cares nothing for high quality or appearance. It just makes me
shudder to wonder what your "strange/disturbing layouts and other random
pieces of jibberish" are like.
Let me clue you in, grunge-o: You're just another artistic wannabe
substituting pretentiousness for competence or skill. Perhaps someday
you'll understand. Now turn your baseball cap around and get a job.
Martin Bailey
i...@five-d.com (Ian Kemmish) wrote:
>Maybe someone could develop a RIP that drove a Puma robot wielding a scalpel
>and cutting shapes out of lino.
Well that gives a whole new slant to take into consideration when
people ask about "drivers for a lino"
======================================================
Martin Bailey, Harlequin Ltd. http://www.harlequin.com
Chris Gray
In article <31CB43...@dreamscape.com>, Dave Palmer <upst...@dreamscape.com> writes:
>
> Hmmm, I love these neo-conservatives, so affraid of their world being horribly
> disrupted because there are a few brave souls who are willing to ask the
> question "why does it have to be like this?"
Steady on -- I said I was a modernist, not a neo-conservative ...
> Change is good my friend. We've been doing it your way for far too long. Its time
> for the proverbial monkey wrench. I invite you to read what we have to say.
> We feel that the old fashioned ways of design are dead, and overly corporatized.
Huh? You've been doing it my way? Well don't blame me for that ...
> All we want to do is destroy everything the publishing and design industry
> stand for. It deserves to be destroyed. Destruction isn't bad, its also not
> catastrophic. It allows you to rebuild. Build something better. Then in time
> you destroy it again. Its a cycle. Getting yourself stuck into one method, one
> look, one way of being, and you die, you turn to dust. Constant destruction and
> rebirth keeps things new.
Hm, now we're paraphrasing the Futurist manifesto. Or something from
that Russian magazine, what was it called -- VESA?
> --Dave Palmer
> co-publisher Upstate 'zine.
> p.s. gee, thanks for getting so nasty! Do I know you? Have I wronged you
> in some way?
Well you have now: called me a coward for a start. So let me let you
in on a secret: post-modernism is dead, finished, over, buried. Here
in Belgium, home to some of the world's most innovative designers, Wave
megazine has heralded the Return to Legibility. A couple of years back,
they were printing in green sideways across purple, like OZ in its hey-
day; now everything's neatly laid out and categorised, printed so that
even bespectacled old buffers like me can read it. Decontructivism is
passe. Communication is the future.
Paula J. Befumo
On Jun 24, 1996 08:45:37 in article <Re: Post modern?
Deconstructionalist?>, 'mar...@harlequin.co.uk (Martin Bailey)' wrote:
>Well that gives a whole new slant to take into consideration when
>people ask about "drivers for a lino"
Windows platforms.
Daniel P. B. Smith
In article <4qm2l0$h...@news2.h1.usa.pipeline.com>,
I'm all ready to see whether a platesetter can laser-etch a wood block,
just as soon as I figure out how to power my vacuum tubes with steam.
Dave Palmer
I just sent a rather long e-mail to
Daniel Hillman, I feel going back and forth in a newsgroup
is basically gutless. So, being the kind of person I am
I take a problem and I face it head-on. In the letter, for
those that are interested, I basically refuted all of Mr. Hillman's
rather stupid assumptions. I also asked why he is such a
spitefull person hell bent on crazy hatred. Sorry this degraded
to something this low. It wasn't meant to be like this. All
we ever wanted to do is post a little message saying we have
a new issue of our magazine coming out, and would anyone in
this and many other related fields be interested in seeing it.
Mr. Hillman, took it upon himself to flame us, because we are
different. (and because I made a few spelling errors. It happens,
humans, to date, are inperfect, unless your name is Daniel Hillman).
This will always happen to people like us. Why? Because we don't
fit society's mold. We don't fit in, and that makes people like
Mr. Hillman very uncomfortable. So much, that he takes it upon
himself to flame those that are different.
I appologize on behalf of myself and of Mr. Hillman for making
this just another flame-fest.
Kindest regards,
Dave Palmer
co-publisher, Upstate (maga)zine
Jeffery Catteau
Dave,
Nobody knows how you dress in a newsgroup.
You're right, he shouldn't have flamed you.
Relax, this is only a test. If this was real life, you would have to do a whole
lot less typing.
Dan Hillman is writing from the UK. He has little control over your
future success and the success of your 'zine.
Postmodern culture has driven a great deal of the current media. For that
reason I have a great deal of respect for the 'zine community. It is
truly a labor of love. However, I don't consider it a personal favor that
you are doing what you can to push the edge. Neither do the professionals
who are carrying out the discourse on the newsgroup. We don't really owe
you anything. Yes,
some people are intimidated by the nastiness and anger of
deconstructionalist media sources, but they were the people smoking pot
and sticking flowers in the guns of soldiers 30 years ago.
They don't forget rebellion, they just don't understand YOUR rebellion.
Whether it has a valid purpose or not, it is clouded by your emotion. I
think this industry can learn some new things about design, but I don't
feel that your venom is warranted. Newspapers and textbooks have been
designed to be affordable and readable. This is not because of some
ultra-conservative plot, it is becase the format works. Somewhat like a
screw. That's why you don't have deconstructionalist carpenters freaking
out about the way threads are cut on bolts.
I wish you luck on your endeavor.
Regards,
Jeffery Catteau
> I'm so glad there are people out there
> who do absolutely NOTHING, except go to there jobs and sit around and complain
> whenever anyone dares to be a little different. My god, let me ask you, what
> have you done? At least we are out there trying to do something
expressive, and
> offer lesser known ARTISTS an opportunity to get published. Also, I'll
have you
> know, incase you thought you were being cool by posting a nasty letter
in response
> to some "big" "corporate" magazine or some such thing. Guess what! We do this
> NOT FOR PROFIT. We do it because we love it.
>
> Don't quit my job at Starbucks? Hmmm, I'm so glad you know me. What the
hell is
> that supposed to mean?
>
> You know what, this just goes to show how close minded and shut off
people are to
> things and ideas that are not like thier own. Obviously not a place of
open and free
> thought. Its do it like the text book or be damned.
>
James Wallis
In article <31CE72...@dreamscape.com>, Dave Palmer
<upst...@dreamscape.com> writes
>I just sent a rather long e-mail to
>Daniel Hillman, I feel going back and forth in a newsgroup
>is basically gutless.
Gutless? Criticism isn't gutless. Gutless is provoking a debate in a
public forum, then backing out of it the moment that someone calls you
on one of your asinine assertations. Gutless is sending email to someone
to close down a debate, but then publicly posting a message declaring
that you won. Gutless, in other words, appears to be your middle name.
>I also asked why he is such a
>spitefull person hell bent on crazy hatred. Sorry this degraded
>to something this low. It wasn't meant to be like this. All
>we ever wanted to do is post a little message saying we have
>a new issue of our magazine coming out, and would anyone in
>this and many other related fields be interested in seeing it.
It appeared to be a deliberately provocative message. I was provoked in
almost exactly the same way Hillman was -- I concluded that you were
sub-literates who'd seen one too many issues of 'Raygun' -- but I
decided to do nothing about it, and hoped you'd go away.
>Mr. Hillman, took it upon himself to flame us, because we are
>different. (and because I made a few spelling errors. It happens,
>humans, to date, are inperfect, unless your name is Daniel Hillman).
Or unless you are involved in the publishing and prepress world, where
you make damn sure that your professional utterings are character-
perfect. You don't, for example, make seven errors of punctuation and
grammar in a three-line paragraph.
Here's a clue, and you can have this one for free: publishing is about
communication, and good publishing is about clear communication.
'Raygun', 'Blahblahblah' and other typography-over-content publications
work because their creators manage to convince the reader that they can
communicate clearly and with precision, but they've deliberately chosen
not to. You, on the other hand, seem unaware of the rules you're
breaking. If you can't be bothered to proofread your email and news
postings, why should anybody who earns their living in this industry
treat you with anything even bordering on respect?
>This will always happen to people like us. Why? Because we don't
>fit society's mold. We don't fit in,
On the contrary, opinionated ignorance with attitude seems to be the
norm these days.
>and that makes people like
>Mr. Hillman very uncomfortable.
Hillman posts from an academic address within Cambridge University, so I
can understand how opinionated ignorance would make him uncomfortable.
It makes me uncomfortable too. Please go away, and don't think about
coming back until you've discovered a little professionalism, and have
stopped trying to use rebellion/alienation as a justification for
fuckwittery.
--
James Wallis, Director of Hogshead Publishing (ja...@hogshead.demon.co.uk)
Dave Palmer
Chris Gray wrote:
>
> Well you have now: called me a coward for a start. So let me let you
> in on a secret: post-modernism is dead, finished, over, buried. Here
> in Belgium, home to some of the world's most innovative designers, Wave
> megazine has heralded the Return to Legibility. A couple of years back,
> they were printing in green sideways across purple, like OZ in its hey-
> day; now everything's neatly laid out and categorised, printed so that
> even bespectacled old buffers like me can read it. Decontructivism is
> passe. Communication is the future.
>
First off, I never called anyone a "coward." If you _perceived_ it that way
then I'll apologize.
Secondly, you're not getting point. You can tell me anything is dead, it
doesn't mean anything to me. We do what we do, because we want to. Not
because someone says "...is dead." If the mainstream is into legibility,
then we will probably go the other way. We are _not_ mainstream, nor
do we strive to be. Mainstream culture, mainstream ideas and mainstream
society is what we feel kills individualism.
The name of the game is "follow the leader." We aren't sheep. You aren't
sheep, you ARE AN INDIVIDUAL. So, why do we let "trends" dictate what is
alive and what is dead? If you like something, does that mean its dead to you?
See, its very hard for me to debate my point of view with people who do
not know where we come from. I'm guessing you know very little of the
DIY, 'zine scene. I'm guessing you even know less about the underground
publishing scene. This is where we come from. (of course we are just
_so loved_ in this group, you are all saying, then go back!).
All we wanted to do was tell people in our field and other related
fields what we are doing, and that, god forbid, someone might just
want to see what we were doing. Instead...we are faced with a handful
of oppressive, spiteful nay-sayers who would rather flame us for
being different.
Kindest regards,
Dave Palmer, professional designer, artist
and freak.
Upstate 'zine
Dan Hillman
In article <31CE72...@dreamscape.com>,
Dave Palmer <upst...@dreamscape.com> wrote:
>I just sent a rather long e-mail to
>Daniel Hillman, I feel going back and forth in a newsgroup
>is basically gutless.
You should warn people before you post something like this. I was
drinking when I read it and nearly choked.
>So, being the kind of person I am
>I take a problem and I face it head-on. In the letter, for
>those that are interested, I basically refuted all of Mr. Hillman's
>rather stupid assumptions.
And in your spare time you're also the King of Siam.
What you've mailed to me is of no matter here. I, for one, would find
it difficult to imagine that off-camera, as it were, you've managed
to pull your pants up from around your ankles and beat me to a pulp.
All we've seen from you is empty posturing and little substance.
You're not an artist; you're a hollow chocolate Easter bunny. And
like the bunny, you can't take any heat without melting.
>I also asked why he is such a
>spitefull person hell bent on crazy hatred.
Such crazy hatred! Oh, the humanity!
Did you accuse your English teachers of being "hell bent on crazy
hatred" when they failed you? Or did you manage to get by on extra-
credit "art" projects?
>Sorry this degraded
>to something this low. It wasn't meant to be like this. All
>we ever wanted to do is post a little message saying we have
>a new issue of our magazine coming out, and would anyone in
>this and many other related fields be interested in seeing it.
What's with this "we" stuff? You posted garbage and I called you on
it. Imagine that: you judged the work of others and then your own
work was judged. No grand conspiracy of the prepress cabal, no
consultation with society at large, just me, my opinion, and a few
thousand readers snickering as you dug your grave deeper with every
post. And now you're assuming the victim position and hoping to
garner sympathy? Don't hold your breath.
>Mr. Hillman, took it upon himself to flame us, because we are
>different. (and because I made a few spelling errors. It happens,
>humans, to date, are inperfect, unless your name is Daniel Hillman).
There's a difference between making the occasional mistake and flat-
out not caring. In your posts you've taken the stand that "All we
want to do is destroy everything the publishing and design industry
stand for" and yet you offer nothing better. Quite the opposite,
actually. Everything you have offered this newsgroup is of inferior
quality. You're faded output from a nine-pin dot-matrix printer
proclaiming yourself camera-ready. You're a Cheeze-it in a universe
of stone-ground crackers and brie.
>This will always happen to people like us. Why?
Because your enfeebled attempts at communication are more simian than
sentient. Checking out your URL requires time and effort on my part,
and you've not offered any reason for me to think that they would be
anything other than losing investments.
>Because we don't
>fit society's mold.
Imagine that, not fitting into a society in which education and
communication are considered Good Things. How oppressed you must
feel!
>We don't fit in, and that makes people like
>Mr. Hillman very uncomfortable. So much, that he takes it upon
>himself to flame those that are different.
So you're just a misunderstood rebel and I'm flaming you because you
make me uncomfortable. Not quite. Let me set the record straight so
you'll understand what's going on the next time you leave a newsgroup
with bootprints on the rear pockets of your black jeans.
I don't care what you have to say about design. I don't care about
your politics, your point of view or your "underground" magazine. I
mean that truly and honestly. I do care, however, that you're lazy
and ignorant and that you try to hide this behind a veneer of poncy,
"artistic" double-talk. I offer your obvious lack of care with basic
things like spelling, grammar and configuring your software correctly
as proof of this assertion.
But best of all, you don't even have the guts or conviction to at
least follow through and claim that you *meant* to format your text
poorly or that your spelling and grammar are making a "statement."
Not only are you lazy and uncaring, you don't even believe your own
words. In short, you are the lowest form of invertebrate.
But buck up, Sparky. This attention seems to have inspired you to
adjust your line length and fix some of your most egregious spelling
errors in today's posts. Now that wasn't so hard, was it? Stick with
me and I'll keep you from embarrassing your colleagues yet.
But for now, go fetch me another latte, post-modern-boy. This one's
too foamy.
Paula J. Befumo
On Jun 24, 1996 23:56:30 in article <Re: Post modern?
Deconstructionalist?>, 'dca...@cus.cam.ac.uk (Dan Hillman)' wrote:
>I don't care what you have to say about design. I don't care about
>your politics, your point of view or your "underground" magazine. I
>mean that truly and honestly. I do care, however, that you're lazy
>and ignorant and that you try to hide this behind a veneer of poncy,
>"artistic" double-talk. I offer your obvious lack of care with basic
>things like spelling, grammar and configuring your software correctly
>as proof of this assertion.
us are posting. Publishing and printing are industries that revolve around
the art of communication. Those of us that have succeeded in this industry
have done so partly by being perfectionists in our own ability to
communicate with each other.
I have no problems with "being different." I was well within the '60's
protests against society's norms, lived on an antique and falling apart
sailboat in New York City, where my co-workers in publishing would get a
glimpse of me washing my hair in the "ladies' room," and even read such
underground magazines such as Avante Garde.
However, if you walk out of your house with only one sock on and your pants
on backward people are not going to take you seriously as you declare the
end of the world. In THIS medium of communication, spelling, grammer and
sentence structure say as much about who you are as your physical
appearance does in the real world. You may not like it, but screaming your
protests is not going to change it.
Paula J. Befumo (retired)
ex-Production Manager, Highlights for Children
ex-Production Director, Silver Burdett and Ginn (Simon & Schuster)
ex-Production Manager, Macmillan Publishing Company
ex-Production Manager, Academic Press
Chris Gray
In article <31CEAE...@dreamscape.com>, Dave Palmer <upst...@dreamscape.com> writes:
>
>First off, I never called anyone a "coward." If you _perceived_ it that way
>then I'll apologize.
>
Well what you actually said was:
> Hmmm, I love these neo-conservatives, so affraid of their world being horribly
> disrupted because there are a few brave souls who are willing to ask the
> question "why does it have to be like this?"
So OK, you didn't say I was a coward, only that I was `affraid'.
>Secondly, you're not getting point. You can tell me anything is dead, it
>doesn't mean anything to me. We do what we do, because we want to. Not
>because someone says "...is dead." If the mainstream is into legibility,
>then we will probably go the other way. We are _not_ mainstream, nor
>do we strive to be. Mainstream culture, mainstream ideas and mainstream
>society is what we feel kills individualism.
I don't think you're getting a great deal of point either. You tell me
that you want to destroy everything the publishing and design industry
stand for, and that deserves to be destroyed, that the old fashioned
ways of design are dead, and overly corporatized, as if I should care
that you should feel that way. Then if I tell you that some people
think deconstructivism has passed its sell-by date, and you reply that
"We" don't care what anyone else thinks. Well OK then, you don't care
what I think and I don't care what you think. Thanks for the debate.
>The name of the game is "follow the leader." We aren't sheep. You aren't
>sheep, you ARE AN INDIVIDUAL. So, why do we let "trends" dictate what is
>alive and what is dead? If you like something, does that mean its dead to you?
>
>See, its very hard for me to debate my point of view with people who do
>not know where we come from. I'm guessing you know very little of the
>DIY, 'zine scene. I'm guessing you even know less about the underground
>publishing scene. This is where we come from. (of course we are just
>_so loved_ in this group, you are all saying, then go back!).
>
>All we wanted to do was tell people in our field and other related
>fields what we are doing, and that, god forbid, someone might just
>want to see what we were doing. Instead...we are faced with a handful
>of oppressive, spiteful nay-sayers who would rather flame us for
>being different.
>
We, we, we, we, we, we, we. Reminds me of the scene in Tony Hancock's
_The Rebel_ where he's sitting with this crowd of other beatniks,
talking about what a miserable life "squares" lead. Going to work
at the same time every day, on the same train, and everyone dressed
exactly the same ... camera pans round group, all wearing same sandals,
jeans, black roll-neck sweater, and beard ...
Paula J. Befumo
Chris, you're absolutely right. However, I previously neglected to notice
the earlier posting that clearly indicates the purpose of this magazine,
and the purpose to Dave's life, is to reject everything "that is" for the
sake of fostering individuality.
Individuality is lovely - I have stroven for it all my life. Neverthless,
what means are you using to arrive there? You reject type design as it is
now accepted soley because it IS accepted. I also assume this applies to
the conventions of spelling and grammer - useless as long as you can make
yourself understood.
To support the point of rejecting "what is" in order not to be sheep you
need to understand what it is you are rejecting, offer decent reasons for
that rejection, and move in a purposeful direction. Based upon the reasons
given thus far, alter the power input to your computer to 150V because the
accepted is 110V. Write your own software to provide access to the net and
figure out a way of linking with TCP/IP, because TCP/IP is the established
protocal. Use nothing in your home or surroundings that have developed
based on the hard work of humans before you. Individuality for its own
sake, and the reasons stated here, should put you back into a cave - or not
- because others have done THAT before.
Type and design are not much different. They are basically what they are
because we have found out this is what works best (that is the royal "we.")
Now, before you scream and email me as well, this is not a flame. In fact,
I define flame as a simple nasty answer before dropping back into the
ozone. This is a debate, and an attempt to educate. However, I should
remember I can lead a horse to water...
On Jun 25, 1996 16:21:01 in article <Re: Post modern?
Jeffrey Joel
Jeffery Catteau wrote:
> They don't forget rebellion, they just don't understand YOUR rebellion.
> Whether it has a valid purpose or not, it is clouded by your emotion.
Sounds like it could be a definition of "conservatism" to me. :-)
JJ
- via BulkRate
Dianne Millen
In article <31CEAE...@dreamscape.com>,
Dave Palmer <upst...@dreamscape.com> wrote:
>Secondly, you're not getting point. You can tell me anything is dead, it
>doesn't mean anything to me. We do what we do, because we want to. Not
>because someone says "...is dead." If the mainstream is into legibility,
>then we will probably go the other way. We are _not_ mainstream, nor
>do we strive to be. Mainstream culture, mainstream ideas and mainstream
>society is what we feel kills individualism.
I hate to break this to you, but even if you are determined to "go the
other way" from "mainstream" culture (whatever that is), you are still
allowing it to dictate your actions to you. It's sort of like the
inverse of conformity. True individualism is doing what you want to do
regardless of the mainstream, not watching the mainstream like a hawk
just so you can stick your stubby little fingers up to it by doing
exactly the opposite. And if what you happen to want to do is the same
as what a lot of other people want to do - and there are so many people
on the planet that this is highly likely - then you do it anyway rather
than rejecting it because it's "the mainstream".
You don't sound any different from a thousand other teenage bedroom
revolutionaries to me. Sorry not to have been impressed by your
idealistic fervour.
>The name of the game is "follow the leader." We aren't sheep. You aren't
>sheep, you ARE AN INDIVIDUAL. So, why do we let "trends" dictate what is
>alive and what is dead? If you like something, does that mean its dead to you?
It's, that is, not its. Tsk.
And if you're such an avant-garde, rebellious, up-with-the-trends zine
producer, why the hell are you still using (gasp!) paper and ink? Or is
Web publishing too mainstream for you?
Dianne
x
--
"I know women who say being a lesbian is like being a Parisian. If
you're a Parisian, you're one even if you're not living in Paris at
the moment." car...@delphi.com
Dianne Millen cdm...@cus.cam.ac.uk http://131.111.153.14/students/millen/
Joel Kinstle
Paula <pbe...@usa.pipeline.com> wrote:
>On Jun 21, 1996 19:58:38 in article <Re: Post modern?
>>Maybe someone could develop a RIP that drove a Puma robot wielding a
>scalpel
>>and cutting shapes out of lino.
>
You know, you actually _can_ hook a VIC 20 to a HERO (everyone remember
those?) and get it to do a similar procedure. I had a great uncle who
used a similar set-up to serve ice at parties for a long time.
Paula J. Befumo
On Jul 10, 1996 19:23:43 in article <Re: Post modern?
Deconstructionalist?>, 'kin...@web.ce.utk.edu (Joel Kinstle)' wrote:
>You know, you actually _can_ hook a VIC 20 to a HERO (everyone remember
>those?) and get it to do a similar procedure. I had a great uncle who
>used a similar set-up to serve ice at parties for a long time.
accelerator.