Connect to ISP, ignore Login prompt

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Tiago Castro

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Feb 12, 2014, 12:49:57 PM2/12/14
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Hi!

I'm trying to establish a ppp connection to a server. I'm dialing the number, the modem answer with "connect" and then I start pppd, but I get the message "LCP: timeout sending Config-Requests" .

I noticed that after the "connect" message, the server sends a message with a login prompt. I need that pppd ignores these prompt, and continues with the connection, how can I do that ? It is possible to do that, without using a chat script ?

Thanks.

Moe Trin

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Feb 12, 2014, 9:44:22 PM2/12/14
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On Wed, 12 Feb 2014, in the Usenet newsgroup comp.protocols.ppp, in article
<1d27789b-968c-4037...@googlegroups.com>, Tiago Castro wrote:

NOTE: Posting from groups.google.com (or some web-forums) dramatically
reduces the chance of your post being seen. Find a real news server.

>I'm trying to establish a ppp connection to a server. I'm dialing the
>number, the modem answer with "connect" and then I start pppd, but I
>get the message "LCP: timeout sending Config-Requests" .

You provide no information that is needed.

1, Operating system
2. Version of pppd
3 How are you connecting?

>I noticed that after the "connect" message, the server sends a message
>with a login prompt. I need that pppd ignores these prompt, and
>continues with the connection, how can I do that ?

Do you also get the message that looks like

LCP: timeout sending Config-Requests
Connection terminated.
Receive serial link is not 8-bit clean:
Problem: all had bit 7 set to 0
Modem hangup

That says that you are talking to a terminal server that wants you to
log in. On the other hand:

LCP: timeout sending Config-Requests
Connection terminated.
Modem hangup

this says there was nothing on the other end of the modem connection.

pppd can not "ignore" the prompt - because it doesn't see it. It
either knows something is or is not echoing data back to it (the "not
8-bit clean" message says there is a terminal server, the LACK of that
message may say nothing it there, or what is there is ignoring you.
In a UNIX type of operating system, you might be able to add the
"debug" option to pppd and see that your logging daemon is sending
"daemon:debug" messages to some file you can read.

So more details about what you are doing, please.

Old guy

James Carlson

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Feb 13, 2014, 9:44:33 AM2/13/14
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On 02/12/14 21:44, Moe Trin wrote:
> On Wed, 12 Feb 2014, in the Usenet newsgroup comp.protocols.ppp, in article
> <1d27789b-968c-4037...@googlegroups.com>, Tiago Castro wrote:
>
> NOTE: Posting from groups.google.com (or some web-forums) dramatically
> reduces the chance of your post being seen. Find a real news server.

#insert <plug-for-newsdemon.com>

;-}

>> I noticed that after the "connect" message, the server sends a message
>> with a login prompt. I need that pppd ignores these prompt, and
>> continues with the connection, how can I do that ?

It's important for the original poster to know that pppd BY DEFAULT
ignores that prompt, so there's nothing special he needs to do in order
to get the behavior he's requesting. Pppd doesn't care about random
bytes that don't look like PPP packets. By default, it just speaks PPP,
and it's up to the external chat script to get everything set up
properly in the first place.

> Do you also get the message that looks like
>
> LCP: timeout sending Config-Requests
> Connection terminated.
> Receive serial link is not 8-bit clean:
> Problem: all had bit 7 set to 0
> Modem hangup

That's one possible outcome, but certainly not the only one. A terminal
server may do 8-bit echoes, in which case you'll likely see a message
about a looped-back connection. Or it may garble things badly enough
that you get just the timeout and nothing else.

The "not 8-bit clean" message is sort of a courtesy to the user to debug
a common case, but certainly isn't definitive.

A common reason that you get the "login:" prompt is that the chat script
itself is malfunctioning. Many dial-up servers look at the first
received character to determine what to do. If it's a carriage return,
then the server assumes that the user is a plain old terminal, and
switches to a "login:" prompt and never switches back. If it's a tilde
(~), then the server assumes it's PPP and runs with that. (If it's
really old -- we're talking dial-up here, right? -- it might even look
for hex C0.)

So, a malfunctioning chat script that accidentally sends a stray "^M"
after the connection is already established may well cause the server to
drop into text mode without allowing it to start PPP. Such a problem
would have exactly the symptoms described.

> So more details about what you are doing, please.

Indeed. The actual chat script the original poster is using would be
interesting, along with any information about what ISP or peer system he
might have. Perhaps the administrator of that remote system provided
some dial-up instructions that need to be followed.

--
James Carlson 42.703N 71.076W <carl...@workingcode.com>

Moe Trin

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Feb 13, 2014, 10:59:08 AM2/13/14
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On Thu, 13 Feb 2014, in the Usenet newsgroup comp.protocols.ppp, in article
<mT4Lu.61297$ix4....@fx06.iad>, James Carlson wrote:

>Moe Trin wrote:

>> Tiago Castro wrote:

>> NOTE: Posting from groups.google.com (or some web-forums) dramatically
>> reduces the chance of your post being seen. Find a real news server.

>#insert <plug-for-newsdemon.com>

My news reader automatically inserts that section when I'm replying to
a post from groups.google.com and several web-portals. There are quite
a few good inexpensive/free news servers available.

>It's important for the original poster to know that pppd BY DEFAULT
>ignores that prompt, so there's nothing special he needs to do in order
>to get the behavior he's requesting. Pppd doesn't care about random
>bytes that don't look like PPP packets. By default, it just speaks
>PPP, and it's up to the external chat script to get everything set up
>properly in the first place.

I didn't quote it, but the way the O/P wrote

]]] It is possible to do that, without using a chat script ?

implied to me that he's doing something unusual.

>A terminal server may do 8-bit echoes, in which case you'll likely see
>a message about a looped-back connection. Or it may garble things
>badly enough that you get just the timeout and nothing else.

I'd forgotten that - living in ASCII-land.

>If it's a tilde (~), then the server assumes it's PPP and runs with
>that. (If it's really old -- we're talking dial-up here, right? --

Hey - I'm still using dial-up.

>it might even look for hex C0.)

>Perhaps the administrator of that remote system provided some dial-up
>instructions that need to be followed.

When I moved here (Phoenix) in '96, the ISP did supply a floppy under
the impression I was using windoze 3.1. Took me an hour to figure out
what was actually needed for the connection using *nix. Since then,
it's apparently assumed that a magic fairy will wave a wand somewhere,
and your dial-up will automagically work.

So - how's the weather in Ice-country? Forecast here is talking about
the _possibility_ of 90F/32C Saturday afternoon. ;-) (Hasn't rained
here since before Christmas.)

Old guy

James Carlson

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Feb 13, 2014, 3:01:36 PM2/13/14
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On 02/13/14 10:59, Moe Trin wrote:
> Hey - I'm still using dial-up.

Condolences. :-/

I guess we pay in the form of weather.

>> it might even look for hex C0.)

(That'd be for good old SLIP, of course.)

>> Perhaps the administrator of that remote system provided some dial-up
>> instructions that need to be followed.
>
> When I moved here (Phoenix) in '96, the ISP did supply a floppy under
> the impression I was using windoze 3.1. Took me an hour to figure out
> what was actually needed for the connection using *nix. Since then,
> it's apparently assumed that a magic fairy will wave a wand somewhere,
> and your dial-up will automagically work.

Quite true. Sometimes those disks have INI files with the right
chat-like stuff in them, or have something you can run 'strings' on to
reveal the secrets. But it is unnecessarily hard in many cases.

> So - how's the weather in Ice-country? Forecast here is talking about
> the _possibility_ of 90F/32C Saturday afternoon. ;-) (Hasn't rained
> here since before Christmas.)

Yow. About 28F/-2C here (North Andover, MA) right now in the midst of
yet another storm. It's relatively small as such things go -- maybe 8
inches of snow followed by some ice -- but enough to be annoying and to
keep me from having any fun in the plane.

Moe Trin

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Feb 13, 2014, 6:58:18 PM2/13/14
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On Thu, 13 Feb 2014, in the Usenet newsgroup comp.protocols.ppp, in article
<Bw9Lu.475654$kN2.1...@fx19.iad>, James Carlson wrote:

>Moe Trin wrote:

>> Hey - I'm still using dial-up.

>Condolences. :-/

S'ok - the DSL here has frequent reliability problems. I don't bother
with cable, as there's little that interests me on TV.

>>> it might even look for hex C0.)

>(That'd be for good old SLIP, of course.)

<smacks head> I haven't tried using SLIP since... a long time ago.
I switched to ppp-2.1.2 almost 20 years ago.

>> When I moved here (Phoenix) in '96, the ISP did supply a floppy under
>> the impression I was using windoze 3.1. Took me an hour to figure
>> out what was actually needed for the connection using *nix. Since
>> then, it's apparently assumed that a magic fairy will wave a wand
>> somewhere, and your dial-up will automagically work.

>Quite true. Sometimes those disks have INI files with the right
>chat-like stuff in them, or have something you can run 'strings' on to
>reveal the secrets. But it is unnecessarily hard in many cases.

I think when Microsoft invented the telephone in 1995, most ISPs
switched from a text login, and I've been using the same basic setup
(chat script ending in CONNECT \d\c) since then. Over the years as
I've changed ISPs, I change the phone numbers and usernames, and that's
about it - one script very nearly does fit all. My old trusty external
modem gave up the ghost about three years ago, and I've got a USR 5637
(USB) now - total change in the script is a different device name, and
upping the port speed because I'm not limited by the 16550A look-alike
serial interface.

>> So - how's the weather in Ice-country? Forecast here is talking
>> about the _possibility_ of 90F/32C Saturday afternoon. ;-) (Hasn't
>> rained here since before Christmas.)

>Yow.

Yeah, they're already warning us about wild-fires.

>About 28F/-2C here (North Andover, MA) right now in the midst of
>yet another storm.

In the '60s, I used to work in Lexington and Wayland, and my sister
still lives in CT. She laughs at my summer electric bill (84000 BTU
of central air), and I joke about her winter heating oil bill.

>It's relatively small as such things go -- maybe 8 inches of snow
>followed by some ice -- but enough to be annoying and to keep me from
>having any fun in the plane.

Didn't realize you also played with airplanes - we have the opposite
problem here called "Density Altitude". Deer Valley is only 1475' MSL,
but ground and airborne performance sucks at/above ISA+25C.

Old guy

James Carlson

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Feb 13, 2014, 10:32:37 PM2/13/14
to
On 02/13/14 18:58, Moe Trin wrote:
>> (That'd be for good old SLIP, of course.)
>
> <smacks head> I haven't tried using SLIP since... a long time ago.
> I switched to ppp-2.1.2 almost 20 years ago.

It works pretty well because it's simple. Add to it BOOTP or (gag)
DHCP, and you've got most of PPP. At least it's what we did in the days
before PPP.

>> Quite true. Sometimes those disks have INI files with the right
>> chat-like stuff in them, or have something you can run 'strings' on to
>> reveal the secrets. But it is unnecessarily hard in many cases.
>
> I think when Microsoft invented the telephone in 1995, most ISPs
> switched from a text login, and I've been using the same basic setup
> (chat script ending in CONNECT \d\c) since then. Over the years as
> I've changed ISPs, I change the phone numbers and usernames, and that's
> about it - one script very nearly does fit all. My old trusty external
> modem gave up the ghost about three years ago, and I've got a USR 5637
> (USB) now - total change in the script is a different device name, and
> upping the port speed because I'm not limited by the 16550A look-alike
> serial interface.

I'm a little surprised there's still dial-up available in the US. Too
much time spent near one of the coasts? Perhaps ... I just know I'd
have a hard time working remotely on low bandwidth.

>> About 28F/-2C here (North Andover, MA) right now in the midst of
>> yet another storm.
>
> In the '60s, I used to work in Lexington and Wayland, and my sister
> still lives in CT. She laughs at my summer electric bill (84000 BTU
> of central air), and I joke about her winter heating oil bill.

Heh.

>> It's relatively small as such things go -- maybe 8 inches of snow
>> followed by some ice -- but enough to be annoying and to keep me from
>> having any fun in the plane.
>
> Didn't realize you also played with airplanes - we have the opposite
> problem here called "Density Altitude". Deer Valley is only 1475' MSL,
> but ground and airborne performance sucks at/above ISA+25C.

Ouch! I love flying in the winter. My Hawk XP performs like a homesick
angel when the density altitude reported by the local AWOS is 2000 feet
*below* sea level. Plus we have some neat places to go -- last Sunday,
I went to Alton Bay (B18). It's a lake in New Hampshire, but in the
winter it freezes over and they plow a runway for the rest of us. Lots
of good fun, plus an audience to watch.

The big downside is that for 6+ months a year, I can't get any actual
IMC time, because it's all ice. Foggles just aren't the same thing.

Moe Trin

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Feb 14, 2014, 7:09:08 PM2/14/14
to
On Thu, 13 Feb 2014, in the Usenet newsgroup comp.protocols.ppp, in article
<r7gLu.364706$2R1.1...@fx13.iad>, James Carlson wrote:

>Moe Trin wrote:

>> Over the years as I've changed ISPs, I change the phone numbers and
>> usernames, and that's about it - one script very nearly does fit all.

>I'm a little surprised there's still dial-up available in the US. Too
>much time spent near one of the coasts? Perhaps ...

http://www.ispbargains.com One of many web sites that provide clues
of available providers. Many of the them are national in nature,
offering access through Point-of-Presence providers. The last time I
changed dial-in ISPs, I noted that the new one shared 6 of the 12
phone numbers in the Phoenix Metro area with my old ISP. The username
used ("f...@blah.com" verses "b...@belch.net") tells things apart. I've
also noted that some access providers use PAP, while others use CHAP,
so

[galileo ~]$ ls -li /etc/ppp/*secrets
287714 -rw------- 2 root root 351 2014-01-07 15:39 /etc/ppp/chap-secrets
287714 -rw------- 2 root root 351 2014-01-07 15:39 /etc/ppp/pap-secrets
[galileo ~]$

hard links

>I just know I'd have a hard time working remotely on low bandwidth.

I'm retired now, so that's a bit less of a factor, but even when I was
working the data was generally text files of less than a megabyte
uncompressed. The links tend not to negotiate CCP, but the phone
link is nearly always compressed:

chat: Feb 13 08:55:30 CONNECT 46666/ARQ/V90/LAPM/V42BIS

chat: Feb 13 12:01:51 CONNECT 49333/ARQ/V92/LAPM/V44

I often see text downloads in excess of 18k/sec., which is why I up'ed
the port-speed to 230400.

>> Didn't realize you also played with airplanes - we have the opposite
>> problem here called "Density Altitude". Deer Valley is only 1475'
>> MSL, but ground and airborne performance sucks at/above ISA+25C.

>Ouch! I love flying in the winter. My Hawk XP performs like a
>homesick angel when the density altitude reported by the local AWOS
>is 2000 feet *below* sea level.

At 150' MSL, that's 23F/-5C - my body doesn't handle that any more. ;-)
I've got some XP time, but that was years ago in Palo Alto, CA. (The
manual says 1977 R172K, and the logbook says 1978 to 1980.) Density
altitudes there were usually within 500 feet of sea level, but
the FBOs renting out birds (or their insurers) want a "high altitude
check out" which usually meant a trip up to South Lake Tahoe (6264 MSL)
Truckee-Tahoe (5900 MSL) or Reno Stead (5046 MSL) depending on how hot
it was (Reno at 86F/30C or South Lake at 59F/15C is about 8000 density).

>The big downside is that for 6+ months a year, I can't get any actual
>IMC time, because it's all ice.

http://www.public.asu.edu/~aunjs/ClimateofPhoenix/wxpart4.htm
This is called "The Valley of the Sun" for good reasons. We see
visibility less than 3 miles less than 1/8% of the year, and that is
nearly always something over 3/4 mile in smoke, haze or blowing dust.
Ceilings under 1000 feet are slightly more rare (~0.1%). We do see
one or two sand-storms per year, and that can knock the surface viz
below 100 yards - but you wouldn't want to be flying in that (and they
tend to be localized, so nearby airports are likely to remain VFR).

>Foggles just aren't the same thing.

When it's all you got...

Old guy

James Carlson

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Feb 18, 2014, 8:55:06 AM2/18/14
to
On 02/14/14 19:09, Moe Trin wrote:
> On Thu, 13 Feb 2014, in the Usenet newsgroup comp.protocols.ppp, in article
> <r7gLu.364706$2R1.1...@fx13.iad>, James Carlson wrote:
>
>> Moe Trin wrote:
>
>>> Over the years as I've changed ISPs, I change the phone numbers and
>>> usernames, and that's about it - one script very nearly does fit all.
>
>> I'm a little surprised there's still dial-up available in the US. Too
>> much time spent near one of the coasts? Perhaps ...
>
> http://www.ispbargains.com One of many web sites that provide clues
> of available providers. Many of the them are national in nature,

Interesting. I need a new provider -- comcast is hiking prices into the
stratosphere -- but I've got no real choices at all. I'm half tempted
to start my own ISP ... except that I know exactly what sort of legal
hellscape that would involve.

How I wish Google Fiber would save us!

> offering access through Point-of-Presence providers. The last time I
> changed dial-in ISPs, I noted that the new one shared 6 of the 12
> phone numbers in the Phoenix Metro area with my old ISP. The username
> used ("f...@blah.com" verses "b...@belch.net") tells things apart. I've
> also noted that some access providers use PAP, while others use CHAP,
> so

There's some company providing the dial-in services, and the "@xxx"
identifies the back-end authentication. In some cases, they might
actually be back-hauling the actual PPP frames over L2TP or something
like that back to the ISP. Or the dial-in company does all the work and
the "ISP" just provides billing and service.

Those dial-in companies were customers of a vendor I used to work for
about 17 years ago. I'm just a little surprised they're still around.

> [galileo ~]$ ls -li /etc/ppp/*secrets
> 287714 -rw------- 2 root root 351 2014-01-07 15:39 /etc/ppp/chap-secrets
> 287714 -rw------- 2 root root 351 2014-01-07 15:39 /etc/ppp/pap-secrets
> [galileo ~]$
>
> hard links

Yep; that's why the file format is the same.

>> I just know I'd have a hard time working remotely on low bandwidth.
>
> I'm retired now, so that's a bit less of a factor, but even when I was
> working the data was generally text files of less than a megabyte
> uncompressed. The links tend not to negotiate CCP, but the phone
> link is nearly always compressed:
>
> chat: Feb 13 08:55:30 CONNECT 46666/ARQ/V90/LAPM/V42BIS
>
> chat: Feb 13 12:01:51 CONNECT 49333/ARQ/V92/LAPM/V44
>
> I often see text downloads in excess of 18k/sec., which is why I up'ed
> the port-speed to 230400.

The place I work now allows me to use remote desktop to access systems,
but I'm not permitted to transfer files around. It'd be much more
viable if I could download things, but it turns out that usable
interactive service requires a lot of bandwidth.

Plus, there's netflix. ;-}

>>> Didn't realize you also played with airplanes - we have the opposite
>>> problem here called "Density Altitude". Deer Valley is only 1475'
>>> MSL, but ground and airborne performance sucks at/above ISA+25C.
>
>> Ouch! I love flying in the winter. My Hawk XP performs like a
>> homesick angel when the density altitude reported by the local AWOS
>> is 2000 feet *below* sea level.
>
> At 150' MSL, that's 23F/-5C - my body doesn't handle that any more. ;-)

Yeah, it's a little chilly, but that's a good day. If it drops below
about 10F, I have trouble starting the engine, even with a pre-heat. (I
have the plane but no hangar. Up here, hangars cost about the same as a
plane, so you kind of have to choose between them.)

> I've got some XP time, but that was years ago in Palo Alto, CA. (The
> manual says 1977 R172K, and the logbook says 1978 to 1980.) Density

Mine's a 1978. I bought it in December 2010. It was a good step up
from the 172N that I learned on -- a bit more complicated
(constant-speed prop and cowl flaps), but nothing that would be horrible
to forget (e.g., gear).

> altitudes there were usually within 500 feet of sea level, but
> the FBOs renting out birds (or their insurers) want a "high altitude
> check out" which usually meant a trip up to South Lake Tahoe (6264 MSL)
> Truckee-Tahoe (5900 MSL) or Reno Stead (5046 MSL) depending on how hot
> it was (Reno at 86F/30C or South Lake at 59F/15C is about 8000 density).

I haven't done any mountain flying. Vermont is nearby and has some
tricky airports, but highest of the places I normally go (9G8) has a
surface elevation of 2099 MSL. Maybe someday ...

>> The big downside is that for 6+ months a year, I can't get any actual
>> IMC time, because it's all ice.
>
> http://www.public.asu.edu/~aunjs/ClimateofPhoenix/wxpart4.htm
> This is called "The Valley of the Sun" for good reasons. We see
> visibility less than 3 miles less than 1/8% of the year, and that is
> nearly always something over 3/4 mile in smoke, haze or blowing dust.

Wow.

> Ceilings under 1000 feet are slightly more rare (~0.1%). We do see
> one or two sand-storms per year, and that can knock the surface viz
> below 100 yards - but you wouldn't want to be flying in that (and they
> tend to be localized, so nearby airports are likely to remain VFR).
>
>> Foggles just aren't the same thing.
>
> When it's all you got...

I guess. But there's a huge psychological difference I've noticed in
hard IMC. With some sort of view-limiting device, you always have in
the back of your head (whether you think of it or not) that if all goes
south you can just pull off the device and everything will be easy
again. You can't do that in a real cloud.

I've shot an ILS down to the legally-allowed 100 AGL (simulating
approach lighting but not runway in sight) with foggles, and it's good
practice, but nothing like the excitement of a real approach to
minimums. I did a practice ILS 16 at KPSM a few months after getting my
rating. I broke out right at minimums and then went missed. After
checking in, I turned up the ATIS again just to double-check: ceiling
200, visibility 1. Woo-hoo!

Even with the attraction of always-perfect weather, I think I'd miss
that. :->

Moe Trin

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Feb 18, 2014, 9:33:56 PM2/18/14
to
On Tue, 18 Feb 2014, in the Usenet newsgroup comp.protocols.ppp, in article
<%CJMu.42554$m75....@fx07.iad>, James Carlson wrote:

>Moe Trin wrote:

>> http://www.ispbargains.com One of many web sites that provide clues
>> of available providers. Many of the them are national in nature,

>Interesting. I need a new provider -- comcast is hiking prices into
>the stratosphere -- but I've got no real choices at all.

We've got cable, DSL and wireless choices, but the rates aren't all
that competitive mainly because they tend to bundle expensive but
useless additions. With DSL, the final mile of copper is owned by
the local Baby Bell, and is poorly maintained. You can have a different
ISP, but you still pay the wire fee and run into finger-pointing when
there is a problem. I've had real problems with that merry-go-round.

>I'm half tempted to start my own ISP ... except that I know exactly
>what sort of legal hellscape that would involve.

I'm told you are seen as a "common carrier" and thus not responsible
for the content of the packets, but there are more than enough hoops
in the way in government oversight. The bandwidth supplier may also
have requirements.

>There's some company providing the dial-in services, and the "@xxx"
>identifies the back-end authentication. In some cases, they might
>actually be back-hauling the actual PPP frames over L2TP or something
>like that back to the ISP. Or the dial-in company does all the work
>and the "ISP" just provides billing and service.

Using traceroute, it appears that the PoP is doing it all, but the
packets may be tunneled. Depending on the access number I'm dialing,
I seem to connect to servers in Phoenix (AT&T), Los Angeles (UU.net),
Stockton, CA (PacWest) or Houston (Grande Commu). In the past, I also
saw indications of Chicago and Pittsburgh locations.

>> I often see text downloads in excess of 18k/sec., which is why I
>> up'ed the port-speed to 230400.

Doing some periodic downloads from ftp.iana.org recently, I noticed
that I seemed to be running into the stops at 230.4, and up'ed it
again to 460800. It's not DSL, but it's certainly faster than the
older (RS-232) days.

>The place I work now allows me to use remote desktop to access systems,
>but I'm not permitted to transfer files around.

Former employer had similar restrictions.

>It'd be much more viable if I could download things, but it turns out
>that usable interactive service requires a lot of bandwidth.

Most of the work I'd be doing was relatively simple command line, and
that wasn't too bad.

>Plus, there's netflix. ;-}

True

>I have the plane but no hangar. Up here, hangars cost about the same
>as a plane, so you kind of have to choose between them.)

"You own a plane, so you must be made of money". Most of the airports
are owned by the city or county, and they look at it as a major source
of income. Somewhat more common here is covered parking - hangers
without walls/doors. But that's mainly due to the sun - even leaving
your car in the parking lot for half an hour can make it too hot to
touch and raise interior temps over 160F/71C, and yet people leave
their kids or pets in closed cars because they're "just going in to
$FOO for a moment". Cops will arrest for "child endangerment" or
"animal cruelty" if they find this. If you're going to park/tie-down
out in the open, most people have aluminum foil covered cardboard
window covers to block the direct sun. Side window covers are held in
place with Velcro pads. Even so, interior temps can be quite high.
At former work, premium perc was "covered parking" rather than "close
to the door".

>Mine's a 1978. I bought it in December 2010. It was a good step up
>from the 172N

Yeah - green gas. I also got a lot of time on red gas 172Ms.

>a bit more complicated (constant-speed prop and cowl flaps), but
>nothing that would be horrible to forget (e.g., gear).

At least with a high-wing, you can _usually_ see that it's not up.
Long-ago flight instructor when I was transitioning into complex birds
beat me constantly, so that (even in a fixed gear bird) I do a gear
check passing 1000 AGL and again at 250 AGL. (First checkout ride in a
Beech A36, I make the expected big deal about "gear down" and "three
green" on downwind - the CFI then reaches forward and turns some knob,
but I'm paying more attention to "outside" - till on final I notice his
hand resting on his knee, finger casually pointing at the lack of greens
because he'd turned on the instrument lights and that dims the gear and
warning lights - DAMN! "Tower, 72-Whiskey is going around".) It's now
hard-wired in as part of normal procedure. I had a quarter of a Beech
F33A when I was in California, but had to sell it when we moved here.
We then bought a third of a 1981 C-182Q, but sold that about 6 years
ago because I wasn't putting enough time on it to make it worth-while.

>> Density altitudes [at PAO] were usually within 500 feet of sea
>> level, but [renters/insurers] want a "high check out"

>I haven't done any mountain flying. Vermont is nearby and has some
>tricky airports,

Santa Cruz Skypark (20 NM South of KSJC, now closed) - 2500 x 30 feet
on a 530' hill-top. Local FBOs prohibited flying in there until you
had a checkout/sign-off by a CFI, because of /interesting/ air currents
and an optical illusion on final to 13. Once you figured out what the
drill was (here, come in steeper), it was a piece of cake.

>but highest of the places I normally go (9G8) has a surface elevation
>of 2099 MSL.

A mere 86F/30C and you're looking a 4100 density, and a Koch chart says
your take-off distance is 160% of sea-level standard day (and rate of
climb is 60%). The guys with the real problem are those in the wimpy
light twins. Loose an engine on take-off, and engine-out climb rates
might be inches per hour even if you cleaned up instantly.

>Maybe someday ...

The FBOs in the Bay area would hold a "pilot's night" at least twice a
year, and the one in late Spring/early Summer invariably would have a
specialist from the local GADO giving a talk and showing a 'mountain
flying' film.

>> We see visibility less than 3 miles less than 1/8% of the year, and
>> that is nearly always something over 3/4 mile in smoke, haze or
>> blowing dust.

>Wow.

Flight training is a significant business here just because it's
nearly always VFR. Density altitude may be significant, but the runway
lengths are nearly all over 4000 feet, so that's less of a factor. If
I'm outside, I can frequently hear someone "loosing an engine" overhead
the house, or the snarl of a prop when someone is doing steep turns.

>>> Foggles just aren't the same thing.

>> When it's all you got...

>I guess. But there's a huge psychological difference I've noticed in
>hard IMC. With some sort of view-limiting device, you always have in
>the back of your head (whether you think of it or not) that if all goes
>south you can just pull off the device and everything will be easy
>again. You can't do that in a real cloud.

That's also the case in (near) real flight simulators, but you'd have a
problem seeing that looking at some airline driver coming out of the
cab after a quarterly check. But the weather here won't cooperate,
and the nearest actual may be literally hundreds of miles away.

>I've shot an ILS down to the legally-allowed 100 AGL (simulating
>approach lighting but not runway in sight) with foggles, and it's good
>practice, but nothing like the excitement of a real approach to
>minimums.

Even in the Bay area, we didn't see low stuff that often. I think the
lowest actual I've ever done was about 250/1. It certainly did get
lower (KOAK has a CAT-II and KSFO has a CAT-IIIB - RVR6 approach), but
if the weather was that low, you landed and stayed down. On the other
hand, that tended to be a fog situation, and airports further inland
(KSJC, RHV, LVK) could be VFR.

>Even with the attraction of always-perfect weather, I think I'd miss
>that. :->

and the rain - official average down-town is 7.07"/year, and a lot of
that is from thunderstorms. That means it can be pouring "here" and
bone dry two or three miles away. I'm 25 DME North, and because of the
local hills (MSA 25 miles is 7000) I average around 10.9"/year (with a
standard deviation of 3.6" over 15 years).

Old guy

James Carlson

unread,
Mar 1, 2014, 1:33:25 PM3/1/14
to
On 2/18/2014 9:33 PM, Moe Trin wrote:
>> I'm half tempted to start my own ISP ... except that I know exactly
>> what sort of legal hellscape that would involve.
>
> I'm told you are seen as a "common carrier" and thus not responsible
> for the content of the packets, but there are more than enough hoops
> in the way in government oversight. The bandwidth supplier may also
> have requirements.

There's a good bit more to it than that, unfortunately. One of the
problems that Google is running into in deploying fiber access is that
the telcos and the cable companies have anti-competitive exclusive deals
in a number of areas, and have friends (often former employees) in the
local utility commissions. Breaking into that comfortable mutual
back-scratching club is not for someone of modest means. If you try,
you'll find that there are a lot of laws that apply to you that don't so
much apply to anyone else, and that it's a slow town-by-town battle. ;-}

A few towns up here have municipal utilities, such as power and gas.
Ours doesn't, but I've lived in towns that had it, and it's a great deal
-- much better service and lower cost. I know that some of the towns
tried to set up their own ISPs and ran into trouble. Just googling
"municipal isp" will get you pages of woe, including the fact that 20
states simply outlaw it to protect the monopolies. Shrewsbury, MA, is
the only one I know of here. (I lived there for about 9 months.)

>> There's some company providing the dial-in services, and the "@xxx"
>> identifies the back-end authentication. In some cases, they might
>> actually be back-hauling the actual PPP frames over L2TP or something
>> like that back to the ISP. Or the dial-in company does all the work
>> and the "ISP" just provides billing and service.
>
> Using traceroute, it appears that the PoP is doing it all, but the
> packets may be tunneled. Depending on the access number I'm dialing,
> I seem to connect to servers in Phoenix (AT&T), Los Angeles (UU.net),
> Stockton, CA (PacWest) or Houston (Grande Commu). In the past, I also
> saw indications of Chicago and Pittsburgh locations.

You can't really tell that much of the infrastructure by traceroute.
That just shows the IP hops. Sometimes, the reverse DNS look-up on the
addresses revealed shows a bit of the complexity
("foobar-atm-switch.blah.net"), but often it does not.

In particular, if they're back-hauling your PPP frames over L2TP (or
similar) to an ISP, that'll just look like a single hop to you, no
matter how far away it might be. The inner (encapsulated) TTL doesn't
change.

>> I have the plane but no hangar. Up here, hangars cost about the same
>> as a plane, so you kind of have to choose between them.)
>
> "You own a plane, so you must be made of money".

Ha! Not quite. When my father passed away, I had a little bit of extra
money. Part of it went to pay off credit cards and the house, and I was
lucky enough that my wife suggested that if I wanted a plane, it was
"now or never," so I started looking. Now, about four years later, with
kids going off to college, I'm definitely back on the debt train.

I suspect I'm one of the more fortunate plane owners. Most that I know
have even lower resources, and keep up just because they love flying.
But you're right that a lot of people seem to assume that aviation is
the sport of the rich alone.

> Most of the airports
> are owned by the city or county, and they look at it as a major source
> of income. Somewhat more common here is covered parking - hangers
> without walls/doors. But that's mainly due to the sun - even leaving
> your car in the parking lot for half an hour can make it too hot to
> touch and raise interior temps over 160F/71C, and yet people leave
> their kids or pets in closed cars because they're "just going in to
> $FOO for a moment". Cops will arrest for "child endangerment" or
> "animal cruelty" if they find this.

I should hope so!

>> a bit more complicated (constant-speed prop and cowl flaps), but
>> nothing that would be horrible to forget (e.g., gear).
>
> At least with a high-wing, you can _usually_ see that it's not up.

For me, it's not really a matter of seeing, it's a matter of
remembering, which usually means doing whatever I can to make sure I
always do the same flow every time. When an annoying instructor
interrupts that flow, I either start over from the beginning, or just
tell him I'm going to ignore him until some specific point.

>> but highest of the places I normally go (9G8) has a surface elevation
>> of 2099 MSL.
>
> A mere 86F/30C and you're looking a 4100 density, and a Koch chart says

Mere? 86F is an awfully hot day in Ebensburg, but true enough.

Normally, when I fly out of there, it's pretty early, because I have a
bit of a haul back home. Even in July, it'll usually be less than 60F
in the morning.

>> Even with the attraction of always-perfect weather, I think I'd miss
>> that. :->
>
> and the rain - official average down-town is 7.07"/year, and a lot of
> that is from thunderstorms. That means it can be pouring "here" and
> bone dry two or three miles away. I'm 25 DME North, and because of the
> local hills (MSA 25 miles is 7000) I average around 10.9"/year (with a
> standard deviation of 3.6" over 15 years).

Ouch. It's more like 43" of rain per year here. At 11"/year, we'd have
a lot of dead plants.

Moe Trin

unread,
Mar 2, 2014, 10:51:09 PM3/2/14
to
On Sat, 01 Mar 2014, in the Usenet newsgroup comp.protocols.ppp, in article
<WJpQu.33022$x%6.2...@fx08.iad>, James Carlson wrote:

>Moe Trin wrote:

>>> I'm half tempted to start my own ISP ... except that I know exactly
>>> what sort of legal hellscape that would involve.

>> I'm told you are seen as a "common carrier" and thus not responsible
>> for the content of the packets, but there are more than enough hoops
>> in the way in government oversight. The bandwidth supplier may also
>> have requirements.

>There's a good bit more to it than that, unfortunately. One of the
>problems that Google is running into in deploying fiber access is that
>the telcos and the cable companies have anti-competitive exclusive
>deals in a number of areas, and have friends (often former employees)
>in the local utility commissions.

Yup - seen that quite a lot. If I look at my utility bills, I even
see where the telco and power companies include a "Franchise Fee" as
part of the taxes and fees bit (here, 2% of the pre-tax part of the
bill). But how much of that is the result of "new infrastructure"?
The city/county/state sees free money in that. New pole lines to
carry the fiber... right-of-way costs...

>Breaking into that comfortable mutual back-scratching club is not for
>someone of modest means.

Here, the utility commission is part of the Arizona Corporation
Commission - a state office, and the officials are elected, so there is
some semblance of fairness/honesty - see that paragon of accuracy, the
Wonkypedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arizona_Corporation_Commission.
The basic expenses are bad enough without the extra legal work. In
many areas, an out-of-area ISP can provide DSL, but they have to pay
the transit fees to the "last mile" (wire) owner. When I moved here,
the only choices were the local cable-TV provider and a "wireless"
(roof-top antenna) service - and both saw the opportunity to provide
minimal service for maximum cost ("what the suckers will pay"). The
telco only got into the act after the city of Phoenix upgraded the
water system (we have an open trench - lets' lay an additional 10" pipe
for fiber) allowed them to install Remote Access Multiplexers road-side
in the neighborhoods. The telco had to recover that cost, so fees were
high (and still are) but would have been worse if the telco had to do
the trenching on their own (most neighborhoods here have underground
power, cable and phone service).

>A few towns up here have municipal utilities, such as power and gas.
>Ours doesn't, but I've lived in towns that had it, and it's a great
>deal -- much better service and lower cost.

That's a great big "that depends". We have municipal owned utilities,
and perhaps one of the worst examples is Los Angeles. See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Angeles_Department_of_Water_and_Power
We had similar problems in the San Francisco Bay area - where the biggy
is the City/County of San Francisco itself. They get their water from
the Sierras - specifically the Hetch Hetchy reservoir,
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hetch_Hetchy) which is the next valley
North of Yosemite. It's a gravity system, and on the Eastern edge of
the Central Valley the line has a significant vertical drop. They built
a "regulating reservoir" and hydroelectric plant there (initially, 75
MW) in the 1920s. Several more dams and power plants were added in the
1960s. The power is delivered to the city (about 140 miles away, as
well as to irrigation districts in the Central Valley) where it's used
for transportation (electric buses and the cable cars), street lighting
and such. None is actually delivered to the city residents.

>I know that some of the towns tried to set up their own ISPs and ran
>into trouble. Just googling "municipal isp" will get you pages of
>woe, including the fact that 20 states simply outlaw it to protect
>the monopolies.

I can't say that I've run into any - and I'm not sure why the city
would think it a viable product. You need some transmission media
(wire, fiber, wet string) and that's either on poles or buried. Unless
the municipality also owns the power or phone system, they'd have to
be paying transit fees to those that do own it as regular ISPs do.

>> Using traceroute, it appears that the PoP is doing it all, but the
>> packets may be tunneled. Depending on the access number I'm dialing,
>> I seem to connect to servers in Phoenix (AT&T), Los Angeles (UU.net),
>> Stockton, CA (PacWest) or Houston (Grande Commu). In the past, I
>> also saw indications of Chicago and Pittsburgh locations.

>You can't really tell that much of the infrastructure by traceroute.
>That just shows the IP hops.

True - but as you say

>Sometimes, the reverse DNS look-up on the addresses revealed shows a
>bit of the complexity ("foobar-atm-switch.blah.net"), but often it
>does not.

Most often, I see the clues in those names (amazing how many use ICAO
or IATA abbreviations for cities). Another clue is in the search
engines (and similar) that have done some extra work to map IP address
ranges to locales. Searching for a brand name of a nationally
available product (such as cars) and you're presented with icons/URLs
to "local" retailers. That's how I picked out several.

>In particular, if they're back-hauling your PPP frames over L2TP (or
>similar) to an ISP, that'll just look like a single hop to you, no
>matter how far away it might be. The inner (encapsulated) TTL doesn't
>change.

True - and the only indication you might have is the IP addresses and
the average transit times (though that also is highly dependent on how
busy the link may otherwise be).

>> "You own a plane, so you must be made of money".

>Ha! Not quite. When my father passed away, I had a little bit of
>extra money. Part of it went to pay off credit cards and the house,
>and I was lucky enough that my wife suggested that if I wanted a
>plane, it was "now or never," so I started looking.

I think I learnt my lesson when I got out of the Air Farce, and used
the savings to make a down-payment on a new car. At the time, I had
a decent job, and was getting overtime. Of course, a year afterwards,
the economy had softened, and I was only working 32 hours a week (had
to take a part-time job to afford snow tires). I've tended to minimize
consumer debt if practical.

>Now, about four years later, with kids going off to college, I'm
>definitely back on the debt train.

Retired, and no kids - house and cars are paid for. Of course, we're
going to need to replace the (23 year old) central air soon.

>I suspect I'm one of the more fortunate plane owners. Most that I know
>have even lower resources, and keep up just because they love flying.

That was why I went with a fractional ownership. I had gotten used to
flying on the cheap thanks to the GI-Bill, but it was decided that I
wouldn't make it as a CFI - don't have the patience. So it was back to
paying full price, and that pointed to fractional ownership or lease
back. The local FBOs were leasing in aircraft for use as rentals,
but it just didn't feel as comfortable.

>But you're right that a lot of people seem to assume that aviation is
>the sport of the rich alone.

Especially when they hear about the price of fuel - never mind this
concept of annuals and time based overhauls.

>>> a bit more complicated (constant-speed prop and cowl flaps), but
>>> nothing that would be horrible to forget (e.g., gear).

>> At least with a high-wing, you can _usually_ see that it's not up.

>For me, it's not really a matter of seeing, it's a matter of
>remembering, which usually means doing whatever I can to make sure I
>always do the same flow every time.

That's why I've gotten into the habit of ALWAYS making a gear check
even in a non-retractable. For the planes I fly the most, I have a
copy of the check list on the clip-board on my lap.

>When an annoying instructor interrupts that flow, I either start over
>from the beginning, or just tell him I'm going to ignore him until
>some specific point.

As I said - "Tower, 72-Whiskey is going around!".

>>> (9G8) has a surface elevation of 2099 MSL.

>> A mere 86F/30C and you're looking a 4100 density,

>Mere? 86F is an awfully hot day in Ebensburg, but true enough.

Yeah, it's warm, but it happens all to often in the summer. If you
really want an eye-opener, in 1990 the airport at Phoenix became
unusable because the observed temperature exceeded 122F/50C. That
was off the end of the charts, even though the density altitude is
no worse than ISA conditions at Denver (where I've seen ISA+15C in
summers - there's a reason for those 12000 foot long runways at KDEN).

>> and the rain - official average down-town is 7.07"/year, and a lot of
>> that is from thunderstorms. That means it can be pouring "here" and
>> bone dry two or three miles away. I'm 25 DME North, and because of
>> the local hills (MSA 25 miles is 7000) I average around 10.9"/year
>> (with a standard deviation of 3.6" over 15 years).

>Ouch. It's more like 43" of rain per year here. At 11"/year, we'd
>have a lot of dead plants.

You get used to it. When I moved to the San Francisco area, I thought
it was barren with only 17"/year. But we've broken the spell, and got
rain Friday and Saturday. Down at the Sky Harbor (KPHX), they seem to
have gotten 1.10 inches, while I got 2.00 inches plus a dose of 1/2"
hail. The hail trashed some of the veggies, knocked a lot of the
leaves off the trees (and into the pool). As for the dead plants - we
use http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drip_irrigation.

Old guy

Jim Carlson

unread,
Mar 10, 2014, 9:37:35 AM3/10/14
to
On 03/02/14 22:51, Moe Trin wrote:
> Here, the utility commission is part of the Arizona Corporation
> Commission - a state office, and the officials are elected, so there is
> some semblance of fairness/honesty - see that paragon of accuracy, the
> Wonkypedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arizona_Corporation_Commission.

Well, at least electing them seems like a fairly good idea. I don't
think it works well for all offices ... places with elected judges seem
to be a bit nuttier at election time given that voters don't have much
they can vote on ... but a fairly independent PUC would indeed be nice.

>> A few towns up here have municipal utilities, such as power and gas.
>> Ours doesn't, but I've lived in towns that had it, and it's a great
>> deal -- much better service and lower cost.
>
> That's a great big "that depends". We have municipal owned utilities,
> and perhaps one of the worst examples is Los Angeles. See
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Angeles_Department_of_Water_and_Power

Ugh. OK; fair enough. Anything can be done poorly.

>> I know that some of the towns tried to set up their own ISPs and ran
>> into trouble. Just googling "municipal isp" will get you pages of
>> woe, including the fact that 20 states simply outlaw it to protect
>> the monopolies.
>
> I can't say that I've run into any - and I'm not sure why the city
> would think it a viable product. You need some transmission media
> (wire, fiber, wet string) and that's either on poles or buried. Unless
> the municipality also owns the power or phone system, they'd have to
> be paying transit fees to those that do own it as regular ISPs do.

In Shrewsbury, they do own and maintain the poles. And they're much
better at it. When there's a storm that knocks out the poor suckers
with privately-held utilities, they're still up in Shrewsbury. 53
recorded outages in 2012 with an average of 47 minutes per outage for
SELCO. And the last rate change was in 2008. Like all town agencies,
they have to report data in the annual town meeting, so it's easy to
find out how they're doing. Good luck finding accurate statistics for
those other companies.

They have twice as many linemen per customer as the private companies
do, and half (or less) the outage time.

>> I suspect I'm one of the more fortunate plane owners. Most that I know
>> have even lower resources, and keep up just because they love flying.
>
> That was why I went with a fractional ownership. I had gotten used to
> flying on the cheap thanks to the GI-Bill, but it was decided that I
> wouldn't make it as a CFI - don't have the patience. So it was back to
> paying full price, and that pointed to fractional ownership or lease
> back. The local FBOs were leasing in aircraft for use as rentals,
> but it just didn't feel as comfortable.

I know some people who do lease-backs, but given the trouble I've seen
in "simple" shared-use agreements, I'm very wary of it. I guess if
someone were to set up a standardized program for it, so that everyone
going in would know exactly what was expected, then I'd be a little more
interested.

>> When an annoying instructor interrupts that flow, I either start over
>>from the beginning, or just tell him I'm going to ignore him until
>> some specific point.
>
> As I said - "Tower, 72-Whiskey is going around!".

Good point.

>>>> (9G8) has a surface elevation of 2099 MSL.
>
>>> A mere 86F/30C and you're looking a 4100 density,
>
>> Mere? 86F is an awfully hot day in Ebensburg, but true enough.
>
> Yeah, it's warm, but it happens all to often in the summer. If you
> really want an eye-opener, in 1990 the airport at Phoenix became
> unusable because the observed temperature exceeded 122F/50C. That
> was off the end of the charts, even though the density altitude is
> no worse than ISA conditions at Denver (where I've seen ISA+15C in
> summers - there's a reason for those 12000 foot long runways at KDEN).

Yikes. That'd be a bummer of a reason to have your flight canceled.

Moe Trin

unread,
Mar 11, 2014, 12:00:57 AM3/11/14
to
On Mon, 10 Mar 2014, in the Usenet newsgroup comp.protocols.ppp, in article
<531DC01F...@workingcode.com>, Jim Carlson wrote:

Wonder what happened to the O/P, Tiago Castro <tiagom...@gmail.com>?

>Moe Trin wrote:

>> Here, the utility commission is part of the Arizona Corporation
>> Commission - a state office, and the officials are elected, so there
>> is some semblance of fairness/honesty

>Well, at least electing them seems like a fairly good idea.

Concept good - practice? I dunno. There's usually three or four
candidates for each seat, but I don't think the turn-over is that great.

>I don't think it works well for all offices ... places with elected
>judges seem to be a bit nuttier at election time given that voters
>don't have much they can vote on ...

We do elect the "Justice of the Peace" and municipal judges here, and
every two years we get to vote to "re-confirm" a portion of the superior
and appellate court judges (yes/no only). If a judge gets voted down or
retires, a "new" judge is appointed - there is a "peer" nominating
committee, that gives (multiple) recommendations to the governor (who
then chooses one), but this is only in the two most populous counties
(Maricopa = Phoenix and Pima = Tucson). In the rest of the state, the
multiple nominees get put on the ballot. A newly appointed/elected
judge must undergo a "yes/no" vote at the next (2 year) election. The
material provided to the voters is essentially a peer (other judges and
members of the bar associations) review report card.

>>> A few towns up here have municipal utilities, such as power and gas.
>>> Ours doesn't, but I've lived in towns that had it, and it's a great
>>> deal -- much better service and lower cost.

>> That's a great big "that depends". We have municipal owned
>> utilities, and perhaps one of the worst examples is Los Angeles.

>Ugh. OK; fair enough. Anything can be done poorly.

That's one way of putting it. ;-)

>> Unless the municipality also owns the power or phone system, they'd
>> have to be paying transit fees to those that do own it as regular
>> ISPs do.

>In Shrewsbury, they do own and maintain the poles.

Less common, Most of the poles here are owned by the power company
(there are two).

>And they're much better at it. When there's a storm that knocks out
>the poor suckers with privately-held utilities, they're still up in
>Shrewsbury. 53 recorded outages in 2012 with an average of 47 minutes
>per outage for SELCO.

It varies widely. There is a fairly large percentage of the region
that has above-ground (local) distribution lines. Two or three times
a year, we get a really strong thunderstorm go through, and there will
be some substantial down-bursts - strong enough to snap 9-12" diameter
wooden power poles. One pole down is a problem, but it's usual in that
case to have a half mile of poles (10-20) literally snapped at the
base. That's not a one-hour recovery, but it's also not a large area.
That's also why underground utilities are popular. The high voltage
distributions to local sub-stations are all on steel pole, as are the
regional distribution lines, and we don't loose them that often.
(Thinking back, the last outage here was a transformer fire in a
regional sub-station, and that was only a couple of minutes.)

>Like all town agencies, they have to report data in the annual town
>meeting, so it's easy to find out how they're doing. Good luck
>finding accurate statistics for those other companies.

Quarterly filings with the ACC. One thing they seem to stress is
keeping trees trimmed away from the lines. The problems we can get
into is wild-fires caused by tree contacting power-lines. Incidentally
that's an interesting point about learning to fly out here. The flight
instructor stresses that if you're flying and spot smoke, you first
look for air-tankers and such that might be fighting it - if you DON'T
see any obvious fire-fighting, you call it in to ATC, giving your
best shot on location data. On my "long" cross-country as a student
pilot, I encountered one (about 30 mi SE of KSJC) - but Oakland Center
advised that they knew about it and California Department of Forestry
had crews on the way.

>> So it was back to paying full price, and that pointed to fractional
>> ownership or lease back. The local FBOs were leasing in aircraft
>> for use as rentals, but it just didn't feel as comfortable.

>I know some people who do lease-backs, but given the trouble I've seen
>in "simple" shared-use agreements, I'm very wary of it. I guess if
>someone were to set up a standardized program for it, so that everyone
>going in would know exactly what was expected, then I'd be a little
>more interested.

I think a lot depends on the FBO - and what kind of standards they have
for planes AND for pilots who will be renting them. I rented out of
four airports in the Bay area (SCL, PAO, KSJC and RHV), and there was
a huge difference in the quality of the FBOs. It showed up in the
rates charged (boy, this dates me, but a C-172M for $16 to $22 an hour
wet) and that influenced the clientele.

>> in 1990 the airport at Phoenix became unusable because the observed
>> temperature exceeded 122F/50C. That was off the end of the charts,
>> even though the density altitude is no worse than ISA conditions at
>> Denver

>Yikes. That'd be a bummer of a reason to have your flight canceled.

I wasn't here then, but I'd expect it would only mess with the afternoon
flights - say 2-5 PM. Of course, KPHX is about the fifth busiest
airport in the US, so those flight delays probably screwed up air
travel in many other cities. After that incident, the airlines that
had a problem hammered on the aircraft manufacturers to get the charts
extended.

Old guy

Jim Carlson

unread,
Mar 11, 2014, 10:04:40 AM3/11/14
to
On 03/11/14 00:00, Moe Trin wrote:
> Wonder what happened to the O/P, Tiago Castro <tiagom...@gmail.com>?

Long gone, apparently. ;-}

>> I don't think it works well for all offices ... places with elected
>> judges seem to be a bit nuttier at election time given that voters
>> don't have much they can vote on ...
>
> We do elect the "Justice of the Peace" and municipal judges here, and
> every two years we get to vote to "re-confirm" a portion of the superior
> and appellate court judges (yes/no only). If a judge gets voted down or
> retires, a "new" judge is appointed - there is a "peer" nominating
> committee, that gives (multiple) recommendations to the governor (who
> then chooses one), but this is only in the two most populous counties
> (Maricopa = Phoenix and Pima = Tucson). In the rest of the state, the
> multiple nominees get put on the ballot. A newly appointed/elected
> judge must undergo a "yes/no" vote at the next (2 year) election. The
> material provided to the voters is essentially a peer (other judges and
> members of the bar associations) review report card.

The only system I have experience with is Pennsylvania's, which seems to
be a bit of a free-for-all, particularly at the district level where
party candidates run. I think it just brings out the worst in politics
for a job that's really technical rather than political.

>> And they're much better at it. When there's a storm that knocks out
>> the poor suckers with privately-held utilities, they're still up in
>> Shrewsbury. 53 recorded outages in 2012 with an average of 47 minutes
>> per outage for SELCO.
>
> It varies widely. There is a fairly large percentage of the region
> that has above-ground (local) distribution lines. Two or three times
> a year, we get a really strong thunderstorm go through, and there will
> be some substantial down-bursts - strong enough to snap 9-12" diameter
> wooden power poles. One pole down is a problem, but it's usual in that
> case to have a half mile of poles (10-20) literally snapped at the
> base. That's not a one-hour recovery, but it's also not a large area.
> That's also why underground utilities are popular. The high voltage
> distributions to local sub-stations are all on steel pole, as are the
> regional distribution lines, and we don't loose them that often.
> (Thinking back, the last outage here was a transformer fire in a
> regional sub-station, and that was only a couple of minutes.)

I wish we had more thought put into this, but we don't ... again, except
for the municipal agencies, which do put a good bit of planning into
burying cables where possible. The commercial companies don't because
poles are "cheap" -- cheap, that is, until the next ice storm and
everyone's power is knocked out. Looking at the long term isn't exactly
a corporate strong suit.

>> Like all town agencies, they have to report data in the annual town
>> meeting, so it's easy to find out how they're doing. Good luck
>> finding accurate statistics for those other companies.
>
> Quarterly filings with the ACC. One thing they seem to stress is
> keeping trees trimmed away from the lines. The problems we can get
> into is wild-fires caused by tree contacting power-lines. Incidentally
> that's an interesting point about learning to fly out here. The flight
> instructor stresses that if you're flying and spot smoke, you first
> look for air-tankers and such that might be fighting it - if you DON'T
> see any obvious fire-fighting, you call it in to ATC, giving your
> best shot on location data. On my "long" cross-country as a student
> pilot, I encountered one (about 30 mi SE of KSJC) - but Oakland Center
> advised that they knew about it and California Department of Forestry
> had crews on the way.

I'll have to keep that in mind. It's certainly not much of an issue up
here, but fires do happen, and reporting and avoiding is good advice.

>> I know some people who do lease-backs, but given the trouble I've seen
>> in "simple" shared-use agreements, I'm very wary of it. I guess if
>> someone were to set up a standardized program for it, so that everyone
>> going in would know exactly what was expected, then I'd be a little
>> more interested.
>
> I think a lot depends on the FBO - and what kind of standards they have
> for planes AND for pilots who will be renting them. I rented out of
> four airports in the Bay area (SCL, PAO, KSJC and RHV), and there was
> a huge difference in the quality of the FBOs. It showed up in the
> rates charged (boy, this dates me, but a C-172M for $16 to $22 an hour
> wet) and that influenced the clientele.

;-}

Moe Trin

unread,
Mar 11, 2014, 10:04:05 PM3/11/14
to
On Tue, 11 Mar 2014, in the Usenet newsgroup comp.protocols.ppp, in article
<ZJETu.15$IB...@fx27.iad>, Jim Carlson wrote:

>Moe Trin wrote:

>> We do elect the "Justice of the Peace" and municipal judges here,
>> and every two years we get to vote to "re-confirm" a portion of the
>> superior and appellate court judges (yes/no only). If a judge gets
>> voted down or retires, a "new" judge is appointed - there is a
>> "peer" nominating committee, that gives (multiple) recommendations
>> to the governor (who then chooses one)

>The only system I have experience with is Pennsylvania's, which seems
>to be a bit of a free-for-all, particularly at the district level where
>party candidates run. I think it just brings out the worst in politics
>for a job that's really technical rather than political.

Judicial offices are non-partisan and except for the usual grumbling,
the parties/politicians seem to stay out of it.

>> There is a fairly large percentage of the region that has
>> above-ground (local) distribution lines. Two or three times a year,
>> we get a really strong thunderstorm go through, and there will be
>> some substantial down-bursts - strong enough to snap 9-12" diameter
>> wooden power poles. One pole down is a problem, but it's usual in
>> that case to have a half mile of poles (10-20) literally snapped at
>> the base. That's not a one-hour recovery, but it's also not a large
>> area.

About a week after we moved here, I experienced a micro-down-burst. The
winds were strong but gusty, and I was on the back porch trying to
secure things. Short cold burst of air/rain, and stuff was blowing
every which way. Deck chairs and crud into the pool, and several
neighbors lost some trees or parts there-of.

>> That's also why underground utilities are popular.

which brings another problem instead. The transformers and terminal
boxes are on the side of the road - well within range of the drunken
drivers.

>I wish we had more thought put into this, but we don't ... again,
>except for the municipal agencies, which do put a good bit of planning
>into burying cables where possible. The commercial companies don't
>because poles are "cheap" -- cheap, that is, until the next ice storm
>and everyone's power is knocked out. Looking at the long term isn't
>exactly a corporate strong suit.

There is an obvious cost in planning. Must have been about 15 years
ago, the city decided to tie together the water systems (here in North
Phoenix, we were getting deep well water, while the rest of the city
got water from the Colorado and Salt rivers via surface aqueducts. So
while they widened a main-drag, they added:

24" concrete pipe for "gray" (recycled) water to provide irrigation
for several golf courses [1] and two city parks
36" concrete pipe for potable water
54" sanitary sewer
10" conduits for fiber (think there were two)

It took about 3 months to install this on an 8 mile stretch of road
(along with 3 water pumping stations to push the water 500 feet up the
hill), during which time the (2 lane) main drag was reduced to
alternating one-way in the work areas - of course behind the work area
we had a spiffy new 2x2 lane divided parkway... with traffic jams on
both ends of the work area, amd few detours available.

But the city is not fail-proof. When they were building the "Loop 101"
(roughly equivalent to route 128 around Boston) seven years ago, they
improved stretches of roads the new highway crossed. After they had
finished the grading, paving and landscaping, then they realized that
they had forgotten to allow drainage areas/culverts along the side of
the new highway. (Rain is rare, but when it comes, it often comes in
the form of thunderstorms, which can have locally severe rainfall rates,
which results in flash flooding. Hence, the road-side drainage has to
be sized accordingly.) No problem - we'll just tear things up again.

I notice contract work crews are installing new communications terminal
boxes in the neighborhood but they don't appear to be pulling in new
media. Probably the phone company's "IPTV" service. Whoopee! Another
source of 300 channels of crap television, more or less duplicating the
offerings by the cable and satellite providers (in addition to the 32
over-the-air channels I can receive with "rabbit ears"). TV ads for
the new service have also been touting "up to" 150 MHz of Internet
bandwidth as well, but prices are a lot of hand-waving and small print
about required bundling, contract lengths, extra fees and taxes.

>> The flight instructor stresses that if you're flying and spot smoke,
>> you first look for air-tankers and such that might be fighting it -
>> if you DON'T see any obvious fire-fighting, you call it in to ATC,
>> giving your best shot on location data.

>I'll have to keep that in mind. It's certainly not much of an issue up
>here, but fires do happen, and reporting and avoiding is good advice.

We've already had two small wild-fires, and the season hasn't started
yet. A fire site usually is declared a temporary restricted air-space,
so you want to avoid it for that reason. If there are tankers working,
you REALLY want to stay well our of their way. They tend to ignore
the 250 KIAS below 10000 rule, and may be maneuvering unpredictably.

Old guy

[1] This is the Sonoran Desert. Hot, dry, little rain. That's why
we have 218 golf-courses in the county (9226 square miles). And 8
gajillion golf carts - 'cause no one wants to _walk_ 3 miles lugging 15
pounds of golf clubs while they're getting their exercise. ;-)
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