which ink is likely to run out first?
Brendan R. Wehrung
ink. Office Depot sent me a coupon that might be useful ($10 off $25 or
more on ink) but I have to project which ink tanks are going to need
replacement first. My guess is large black...followed by which colors?
Nothing is running low enough yet to judge.
Brendan
Nicolaas Hawkins
<ck...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote in <news:f8h3ms$nns$1...@theodyn.ncf.ca>:
Yellow.
--
Nicolaas
John McWilliams
--
john mcwilliams
Nicolaas Hawkins
wrote in <news:BsKdnX2XS7zRvDHb...@comcast.com>:
You didn't read the question, did you?
It was:
"I have to project which ink tanks are going to need replacement first.
My guess is large black...followed by which colors? "
--
Nicolaas.
2007 Pricelessware CD now available. 600Mb of the best of the best in
Freeware. E-Mail me for details.
... There is no such thing as an atheist in a firefight.
Arthur Entlich
depends upon your use. If you will be printing a lot of text, then
black is likely to be used up first.
However, if you will be printing images, depending on the ink set, the
typical use is as such:
In six color printers, the light (photo) magenta and light (photo) cyan
will be first, followed by yellow, magenta and cyan.
If it is a 4 color model, then yellow, magenta, and then cyan. The cyan
and magenta usually run out about the same time, and it depends upon
your use. If it has two black, pigment and photo black, the pigment
black gets used for text, the other black for photo or color work. It
usually lasts the longest.
Art
Jim Ford
> I've got a fairly new Canon MP600 for which I will eventually have to buy
> ink. Office Depot sent me a coupon that might be useful ($10 off $25 or
> more on ink) but I have to project which ink tanks are going to need
> replacement first. My guess is large black...followed by which colors?
I fitted a CIS to my printer about 2 months ago. I've noticed the yellow
is going down the fastest, closely followed by light magenta, then light
cyan, then cyan and magenta. Black is the last. I print mainly wild
flowers and landscapes.
Jim Ford
Barry Watzman
... FAR larger, usually more than twice the size of the color cartriges
(by ink volume), so the black cartridge may last longer than other
colors, even though you are using more black ink.
Personally, on my HP printer, I'm using both Cyan and Magenta more
rapidly than yellow. But it literally depends on what you print.
John McWilliams
> On Sat, 28 Jul 2007 22:12:00 -0700, John McWilliams <jp...@comcast.net>
> wrote in <news:BsKdnX2XS7zRvDHb...@comcast.com>:
>
>> Nicolaas Hawkins wrote:
>>> On 29 Jul 2007 04:05:48 GMT, "Brendan R. Wehrung"
>>> <ck...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote in <news:f8h3ms$nns$1...@theodyn.ncf.ca>:
>>>
>>>> I've got a fairly new Canon MP600 for which I will eventually have to buy
>>>> ink. Office Depot sent me a coupon that might be useful ($10 off $25 or
>>>> more on ink) but I have to project which ink tanks are going to need
>>>> replacement first. My guess is large black...followed by which colors?
>>>>
>>>> Nothing is running low enough yet to judge.
>>>>
>>>> Brendan
>>> Yellow.
>>>
>> Black.
>
> You didn't read the question, did you?
I failed in reading the last lines.
> It was:
> "I have to project which ink tanks are going to need replacement first.
> My guess is large black...followed by which colors? "
>
Ever so important for you to have pointed this out.
--
lsmft
Mary
news:dkWqi.13465$_d2.1393@pd7urf3no...
> I didn't check to see what ink set the Canon MP600 uses, but the ink use
> depends upon your use. If you will be printing a lot of text, then
> black is likely to be used up first.
>
> However, if you will be printing images, depending on the ink set, the
> typical use is as such:
>
> In six color printers, the light (photo) magenta and light (photo) cyan
> will be first, followed by yellow, magenta and cyan.
>
> If it is a 4 color model, then yellow, magenta, and then cyan. The cyan
> and magenta usually run out about the same time, and it depends upon
> your use. If it has two black, pigment and photo black, the pigment
> black gets used for text, the other black for photo or color work. It
> usually lasts the longest.
I have a 4 colour model and in general, I have found the above to be true. I
have two black - (one fat and one thin cartridge). Most times, the colour
runs out first even though I use colour and black about equal times. Can you
tell me, is my fat black cartridge for photo or text?
Mary
Burt
"Brendan R. Wehrung" <ck...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote in message
news:f8h3ms$nns$1...@theodyn.ncf.ca...
Having read all the responses up to now, I can say that it depends entirely
on what you print most. If it is plain paper text based printing you will
be replacing the large black pigment-based cart. Even if you only print
black, plain paper, text based pages, however, the cleaning cycles that the
printer runs automatically will also eventually deplete the color carts as
well. If you print lots of photos the usual first cart to run out is yellow
(depending on what you are printing.)
Most of the discount coupons you receive from Office Depot or the other big
box office supply stores are for their own store brand of ink. There are
very few aftermarket carts available for these newer Canon printers that
have chipped carts. These carts are refillable and there are some
internet-based vendors with good inks especially formulated for these
printers. If you are so inclined to refill them you can find out about the
few good inks and vendors on this ng and on the Nifty-stuff forum. Pay no
attention to Measekite who tries to dissuade people from considering
aftermarket inks. He has no experience with them but responds with the old,
tired, biased statements that others with experience with these products can
personally refute.
The best solution to your question is to buy a complete extra set of carts.
You will then have the one that runs out regardless of which one it is. I
always have at least one spare of each color on hand. This also gives you
the opportunity to refill the carts as they become empty and have them on
standby. BETTER YET, if you see an ip4300 on an exceptional sale -
something under $100, you will pay little more than the cost of the ink
carts it comes with (it uses the same carts as your mP600) and you will then
have a spare printhead (the same in both printers) for you mp600 and/or an
extra printer on hand in case yours fails!
Brendan R. Wehrung
> I didn't check to see what ink set the Canon MP600 uses, but the ink use
> depends upon your use. If you will be printing a lot of text, then
> black is likely to be used up first.
>
> However, if you will be printing images, depending on the ink set, the
> typical use is as such:
>
> In six color printers, the light (photo) magenta and light (photo) cyan
> will be first, followed by yellow, magenta and cyan.
>
> If it is a 4 color model, then yellow, magenta, and then cyan. The cyan
> and magenta usually run out about the same time, and it depends upon
> your use. If it has two black, pigment and photo black, the pigment
> black gets used for text, the other black for photo or color work. It
> usually lasts the longest.
>
> Art
>
Thank you. I was wondering about photo black.
Brendan
Brendan R. Wehrung
> "Brendan R. Wehrung" <ck...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote in message
> news:f8h3ms$nns$1...@theodyn.ncf.ca...
>> I've got a fairly new Canon MP600 for which I will eventually have to buy
>> ink. Office Depot sent me a coupon that might be useful ($10 off $25 or
>> more on ink) but I have to project which ink tanks are going to need
>> replacement first. My guess is large black...followed by which colors?
>>
>> Nothing is running low enough yet to judge.
>>
>> Brendan
>
> Having read all the responses up to now, I can say that it depends entirely
> on what you print most. If it is plain paper text based printing you will
> be replacing the large black pigment-based cart. Even if you only print
> black, plain paper, text based pages, however, the cleaning cycles that the
> printer runs automatically will also eventually deplete the color carts as
> well.
I was wondering about that. Since Canon seems to recommend leaving the
printer off until needed, I turn it on when I want to print or make a
copy. When powered it talks to itself once in a while (mechanical noises)
which suggests a cleaning cycle. Is this always true or can the noises
mean something else. Isn't there also an issue of clenaing pads with
Canons, or is the Epson?
Brendan
Burt
The printer firmware schedules cleaning cycles based on how much you print
and on the time the printer is idle. The cleaning cycles are done with a
vacuum pump that pulls ink out of the carts and through the nozzles to keep
the nozzles from clogging with dried ink. The ink that is vacuumed out goes
into a waste pad inside the bottom of the printer. Canon and Epson printers
both have waste ink pads. Then the printer determines that the waste ink
"tank" is full it signals you to get the printer serviced. The service
charge is high compared to the value of the printer at that time. You can
look up the codes for most of these printers online and reset the counter to
zero. This lets you continue to print. The warning signal is set to a
very conservative level, and I've read that resetting a Canon once doesn't
cause problems with liquid ink overflowing out of the base of the printer.
Some have even done so twice with no problems.
Bob Headrick
news:46acab00$0$32612$4c36...@roadrunner.com...
> Personally, on my HP printer, I'm using both Cyan and Magenta more rapidly
> than yellow. But it literally depends on what you print.
It also depends on the particular printer and the inks, and how the dye
loads and print modes were set. I know of one study a decade ago where
empty tri-color cartridges returned from customers were analyzed to
determine the amount of remaining ink in each chamber. Surprisingly the
distribution was bimodal - about half ran out of yellow first, the other
half had run out of cyan first. Magenta was generally the second color to
run out whether cyan or yellow ran out first.
My assumption at the time (not backed up by further research) was that it
probably was very dependant on what was being printed - sky tones use mostly
cyan and magenta, flesh tones use more magenta and yellow.
Regards,
Bob Headrick, MS MVP Printing/Imaging
Arthur Entlich
Flowers and foliage use a lot of yellow, since yellows, oranges, reds,
and greens all use a lot of yellow, and if you tend to shoot a lot in
early morning or later evening, your color balance will be even more
biased to yellow.
Art
Arthur Entlich
determine what's what. Some printers have one slot for black for which
you can either use a larger of smaller black cartridge, and both might
be the identical type of ink.
Some printers use all pigment inks both black and color, some use all
dye, and no pigment inks. Does your printer use 5 cartridges all
installed at once?
Art
measekite
Mickey
> I have a 4 colour model and in general, I have found the above to be true. I
> have two black - (one fat and one thin cartridge). Most times, the colour
> runs out first even though I use colour and black about equal times. Can you
> tell me, is my fat black cartridge for photo or text?
>
> Mary
>
Sounds like a Canon. Large black is pigmented and for text. Smaller
blk is a dye based ink for photo printing.
Mickey
Jim Ford
> The ink that is likely to run out first is the ink you use the most.
Wow, that's pretty deep insight from measekite!
Jim Ford
Mary
> You didn't mention which printer you are using. That would help in
> determine what's what. Some printers have one slot for black for which
> you can either use a larger of smaller black cartridge, and both might
> be the identical type of ink.
Sorry,I should have been more clear. I have a Canon IP 4000. My printer has
two black slots. One for a fat black cartridge and one for a thin black
cartridge plus 3 colour cartridges - yellow, magenta and cyan.
> Some printers use all pigment inks both black and color, some use all
> dye, and no pigment inks. Does your printer use 5 cartridges all
> installed at once?
I don't know what kind of ink they have. All cartridges have to be installed
and have ink in them for the printer to work.
Mary
Frank
I know?
I nearly fell out of my chair when I read that.
What brilliant insight!
Frank
Mary
news:UdGdnXwNQPgaYjDb...@web-ster.com...
I forgot to mention its Canon IP 4000. I thought the large black was for
text and the smaller one for photo printing, but wasn't sure. I also didn't
know which black was pigmented or dye based ink. The colour cartridges are
yellow, magenta and cyan. Would they be dye based?
Mary
Mickey
Mickey
Mary
OK, thank you and thanks to Art.
Mary
Arthur Entlich
Your printer has 5 cartridges. The large black one is for text and is
used exclusively for that purpose. That is a pigment ink
The other four cartridges are all dye ink and used for images. They are
Cyan, Magenta, Yellow and the smaller of the two Black (dye or photo type).
The reason for this is that pigment ink provides a sharper and denser
black with plain paper, and may even dry faster. It also is quite fade
resistant, and often is waterproof once dry.
However, this ink doesn't integrate well with the color dye inks. It
sits on the surface of the paper, while dye inks penetrate the paper
more. Since the characteristics differ between dye inks and a pigment
ink, and particularly black inks which have a lot of pigment in them,
they don't merge well and would look odd in an image. Therefore, for
anything involving colored inks, your printer will use the dye black ink
in that application, but continue to use the pigment black ink in text
only applications.
The nature of the head and dot size is often also different between dye
ink and pigment inks.
Arthur Entlich
Art
Mary
> Yes, the CMY and smaller black are dye. The larger black is pigment.
Thank you Art.
Mary
Mary
> OK, now that I know the printer model I can comment further.
>
> Your printer has 5 cartridges. The large black one is for text and is
> used exclusively for that purpose. That is a pigment ink
>
> The other four cartridges are all dye ink and used for images. They are
> Cyan, Magenta, Yellow and the smaller of the two Black (dye or photo
type).
>
> The reason for this is that pigment ink provides a sharper and denser
> black with plain paper, and may even dry faster. It also is quite fade
> resistant, and often is waterproof once dry.
Does that mean the photos I sometimes print will fade after a while? how
long will they last before fading? I didn't put them in an album but keep
them together in a dark area in my closet. I have too many to put in an
album and some of them I have printed and sent to family members and
friends. I printed them on Kodak double sided, semi gloss paper and they
seem to look quite good. I mainly have printed indoor photos of people
mostly with flash rather than outside photos. Do indoor photos show fading
quicker than outside photos?
> However, this ink doesn't integrate well with the color dye inks. It
> sits on the surface of the paper, while dye inks penetrate the paper
> more. Since the characteristics differ between dye inks and a pigment
> ink, and particularly black inks which have a lot of pigment in them,
> they don't merge well and would look odd in an image. Therefore, for
> anything involving colored inks, your printer will use the dye black ink
> in that application, but continue to use the pigment black ink in text
> only applications.
>
> The nature of the head and dot size is often also different between dye
> ink and pigment inks.
I like the Canon IP 4000 printer. It prints nicely, but because it uses dye
inks, will it print indoor photos that will last for years?
Mary
Bob Headrick
> Does that mean the photos I sometimes print will fade after a while? how
> long will they last before fading? I didn't put them in an album but keep
> them together in a dark area in my closet. I have too many to put in an
> album and some of them I have printed and sent to family members and
> friends. I printed them on Kodak double sided, semi gloss paper and they
> seem to look quite good. I mainly have printed indoor photos of people
> mostly with flash rather than outside photos. Do indoor photos show fading
> quicker than outside photos?
"Dark storage" fade is typically pretty long,even for poor fade inks,
although exposure to ozone is also a fade factor. Indoor or outdoor subjects
probably do not make much difference in fade resistance, but some colors
(for some ink sets) may fade faster than other colors. For more than you
would like to know see Henry Wilhelm's web pages at
http://www.wilhelm-research.com. The following may be a good start to see
some of the issues and tradeoffs:
http://www.wilhelm-research.com/pdf/PCWorld_FadeFactor_Nov_2002.pdf
http://www.wilhelm-research.com/ist/WIR_IST_2007_03_HW.pdf
http://www.wilhelm-research.com/dpn/dpn.html
Wilhelm is a recognized expert in the area of print fading.
Mary
news:13b2aa7...@corp.supernews.com...
Thank you for your reply and the links Bob. I will check them out.
Mary
Mary
about fading pics, that I use Staples compatible cartridges for all 5
cartridges.I have found the colour to be quite acceptable. They are not all
that much cheaper than OEM cartridges, but I can save a few dollars
especially if I have to buy 2 or 3 cartridges at a time which happens
occasionally if I've printed a lot of photos at a session. I go in binges
for photo printing and don't print any for a while. The photos I print are
mainly all taken indoors of people usually with flash.
Mary
"Arthur Entlich" <e-prin...@mvps.org> wrote in message
news:lhUri.21055$fJ5.7959@pd7urf1no...
Arthur Entlich
Dye inks, overall, are not as light stable as pigment inks. Canon has
been improving their dye ink longevity over the last several years. The
Canon OEM inks, while better than many 3rd party are still not shining
examples in the industry of long life fade-resistance.
This is not to suggest they will fade away indoors in dark keeping.
Fluorescent lamps, outdoor natural and halogen bulbs probably provide
the most fade-causing UV light. To protect your images, store them in a
relatively dry and pollution free area. Ground Ozone and other
pollutants including carbon monoxide (from the exhaust of cars) are
tough on dye ink prints.
Using a swellable polymer paper, if the results look good, will improve
the permanence of dye inks, but they are more vulnerable to fingerprints
and dampness.
Depending upon the ink set, Canon dye inks rate between about 2 years to
25 years. Most current Canon inkset are toward the mid high range.
Arthur Entlich
I honestly have no opinion about Staples ink. I believe Staples bought
Korectype and with that, ended up with those inks being used in Staples
ink refill cartridges.
I am a believer in asking retailers and distributors to answer these
types of question from clients. I would ask them how you can find out
how fade resistance their inks are relative to OEM or whatever, they may
refer you to the company that actually does that filling?.
Art
measekite
Arthur Entlich wrote:
> Hi Mary,
>
> I honestly have no opinion about Staples ink. I believe Staples
> bought Korectype and with that, ended up with those inks being used in
> Staples ink refill cartridges.
>
> I am a believer in asking retailers and distributors to answer these
> types of question from clients. I would ask them how you can find out
> how fade resistance their inks are relative to OEM or whatever, they
> may refer you to the company that actually does that filling?.
Now that is a bright answer. Ask a clerk that gets about the minimum
wage to answer that type of question when he can barely direct you to a
product that is on the shelf and has not been relocated since he was
hired. :-(
Frank
>
> Now that is a bright answer. Ask a clerk that gets about the minimum
> wage to answer that type of question when he can barely direct you to a
> product that is on the shelf and has not been relocated since he was
> hired. :-(
heheheh...it's got to be much better answer than any answer from a
complete idiot like you!
Frank
Mary
> Hi Mary,
>
> Dye inks, overall, are not as light stable as pigment inks. Canon has
> been improving their dye ink longevity over the last several years. The
> Canon OEM inks, while better than many 3rd party are still not shining
> examples in the industry of long life fade-resistance.
>
> This is not to suggest they will fade away indoors in dark keeping.
> Fluorescent lamps, outdoor natural and halogen bulbs probably provide
> the most fade-causing UV light. To protect your images, store them in a
> relatively dry and pollution free area. Ground Ozone and other
> pollutants including carbon monoxide (from the exhaust of cars) are
> tough on dye ink prints.
>
> Using a swellable polymer paper, if the results look good, will improve
> the permanence of dye inks, but they are more vulnerable to fingerprints
> and dampness.
I usually use Kodak double sided semi gloss photo paper which seem to look
ok, though its just 7 ml it says on the front of the Kodak package.What
company makes swellable polymer paper? I find that Staples are the only
place near me in Toronto to buy photo paper and its quite expensive, and
they don't seem to have an awful lot of variety. Just basic. They don't even
have the double sided semi gloss I like, though they used to stock it but
now just have it in their catalog. I got some a couple of weeks ago in
Shoppers, though thats all they had in the way of photo paper. They don't
usually stock any. I like the semi gloss photo paper I have, but its become
hard to find, and I don't think its a regular item in Shoppers.
> Depending upon the ink set, Canon dye inks rate between about 2 years to
> 25 years. Most current Canon inkset are toward the mid high range.
Would Staples compatible cartridges be similar?
Mary
> Hi Mary,
>
> I honestly have no opinion about Staples ink. I believe Staples bought
> Korectype and with that, ended up with those inks being used in Staples
> ink refill cartridges.
Is Korectype dye based and any good. I used Staples compatibles a lot with
my Canon IP 1500 which I stil use occasionally, and continued with Staples
when I got the IP 4000. Ordinary printing is fine, and photo printing seems
to be ok and like I said, I mostly print indoor photos with flas of family,
relatives, etc.not all that often, but when I do, I print quite a few photos
to send to them. I've always thought that digital cameras are much better
suited to sending jpgs in the mail, than printing stills though I like my
digital camera.
> I am a believer in asking retailers and distributors to answer these
> types of question from clients. I would ask them how you can find out
> how fade resistance their inks are relative to OEM or whatever, they may
> refer you to the company that actually does that filling?.
The only people I see when I go to Staples is the sales clerks, and they
wouldn't know anything about that. In fact, in the area of computers, I
usually know more than they do. And in the area of inks or photo paper they
wouldn't know. They don't get training about inks and I would doubt the
Manager would know.
Mary
Ray
>"Arthur Entlich" <e-prin...@mvps.org> wrote in message
For photo longevity Canon ink is better than any of the other brands
that I have tested. I have not tested Staples, but I would be
surprised if it is as good as Canon.
Arthur Entlich
read his nonsense unless it it gets quoted. I got tired of cutting him
to ribbons, so I guess he feels like he can make these snide comments
now that I don't see them or respond. I hope he's getting a lot of joy
from it. I'm just glad to be rid of the nuisance.
But since I saw this, I'll expand slightly on the matter. When I refer
to retailers I am not referring to nor expecting the sales clerks to
have the answers to these questions.
Retailers usually have email addresses and website and other methods of
requesting information regarding their products. This complexity might
be well beyond measekite's ability to comprehend, but for most people
reading here, I'm sure they fully understood that the information might
be beyond that of a sales clerk to answer.
Art
Jim Robinson wrote:
> measekite <inkys...@oem.com> wrote in
> news:whIsi.2201$IE5...@newssvr17.news.prodigy.net:
>
>
>>
>>Arthur Entlich wrote:
>>
>>>Hi Mary,
>>>
>>>I honestly have no opinion about Staples ink. I believe Staples
>>>bought Korectype and with that, ended up with those inks being used
>>>in Staples ink refill cartridges.
>>>
>>>I am a believer in asking retailers and distributors to answer these
>>>types of question from clients. I would ask them how you can find
>>>out how fade resistance their inks are relative to OEM or whatever,
>>>they may refer you to the company that actually does that filling?.
>>
>>Now that is a bright answer. Ask a clerk that gets about the minimum
>>wage to answer that type of question when he can barely direct you to
>>a product that is on the shelf and has not been relocated since he was
>>hired.
>
>
>
> Art wasn't referring to your own work experience at Staples stocking
> the shelves. But continue, we learn more and more about your failed
> jobs. How hard can it be to stock a shelf! JR
Arthur Entlich
years. I have at least three types here, and Ron Baird, from Kodak can
probably tell you which types are swellable polymer versus microporous.
In general, swellable polymer technology is not waterproof. The ink
will soak off the surface with a bit of hot water, because the polymer
remains water soluble.
To give you a bit more detail:
Microporous paper surfaces usually have a ceramic or plastic surface
which has microscopic holes which allow the ink to pass through. The
surface under it is usually a clay coating called kaolin which is the
same material in white porcelain and a mordant which is designed to lock
the ink into place in this material. Once the ink is dry, it tends to be
set in the lower layer, and the ink remains relatively waterproof.
However, since the surface if full of holes, energized ink molecules
(from UV light, or other chemical sources) can escape through those
holes, and do (thus the ink colors fade).
Swellable polymer is a coating of complex long chain tangled molecules.
Gelatin, egg white, and some soluble synthetic chemicals all are these
types of materials. When the ink hits these materials the liquid makes
the polymer swell which opens up some of the tangles and makes space,
where the ink colors fits. Then, the coating dries, and locks the
colorant into these tangled molecules, sealing them in.
The only major problem with this method is that the paper is slower
drying and may be vulnerable to damage when it leaves the printer.
Even when dry, the surface tends to be softer and more easily damaged
mechanically , and finally, it remains water soluble, so dampness and
fingerprints may damage it, and the ink may wash out of wet.
In general, you can determine a swellable polymer paper by wetting some
that is printed (it will ruin the print, so use scrap or a failed image)
and see if the surface becomes sticky, or even washes off in the water
the ink begins to run. You may be able to tell by wetting a finger and
touching a corner of a non-print area and see if it gets quite sticky.
If so, it is probably swellable polymer.
Arthur Entlich
website. Contact the appropriate offices and ask. If you can't get an
answer from them, and no one has done testing that is published (likely
the case) then you are left deciding for yourself what the saving is
worth versus other alternatives.
Art
Mary wrote:
> "Arthur Entlich" <e-prin...@mvps.org> wrote in message
Arthur Entlich
For photo longevity Canon ink is better than any of the other brands
> that I have tested. I have not tested Staples, but I would be
> surprised if it is as good as Canon.
Are those just Canon printer designated dye inks (OEM and 3rd party), or
also Epson, Lexmark, HP designated inks, etc?
Art
Mary
> Kodak has changed their paper technology many times over the last few
> years. I have at least three types here, and Ron Baird, from Kodak can
> probably tell you which types are swellable polymer versus microporous.
>
> In general, swellable polymer technology is not waterproof. The ink
> will soak off the surface with a bit of hot water, because the polymer
> remains water soluble.
Thank you for the information Art. You obviously know a lot about it, but it
seems complicated to me.
Mary
Mary
> There should be an address on the ink cartridges and an email or
> website. Contact the appropriate offices and ask. If you can't get an
> answer from them, and no one has done testing that is published (likely
> the case) then you are left deciding for yourself what the saving is
> worth versus other alternatives.
Art,
I checked the ink cartridge. I don't see any address there. Just a phone
number which is Staples Customer service where you order Staples items from
the catalog.On the cartridge box it says The Business Depot in Markham,
Ontario. (probably old boxes). As you probably know, Staples bought them
out. On the other side of the box it says "made in Germany, with components
from France, Switzerland and the Netherlands. I wonder why it needs to
involve 4 countries just for cartridge ink. On the same side it also says
"Business Depot" and "Staples/Business Depot" brand cartridges are not
affiliated with Canon." and " Canon BCI and BJC are registered trade marks
of Canon Kabushiki. Canon has not sponsored or approved this
Staples/Business Depot cartridge. Model numbers of Canon are identified for
compatibility purposes only". The usual legal stuff I guess.
I'm a bit confused here. Didn't you say that the photopaper can also make a
difference how fade resistant photos will be
rather than the type of ink?
Thanks.
Mary
Bob Headrick
> I'm a bit confused here. Didn't you say that the photopaper can also make
> a
> difference how fade resistant photos will be rather than the type of ink?
Yes, both the paper and ink make a large difference in the fade resistance.
See http://www.wilhelm-research.com/pdf/PCWorld_FadeFactor_Nov_2002.pdf and
http://www.wilhelm-research.com/pdf/PCWorld_FadeFactor_Nov_2002.pdf for
examples of variations or 50x in some cases with different papers.
Arthur Entlich
place the information into context. Each paper technology has
advantages and disadvantages, depending upon what is more important for
the print out. Perhaps the explanations can provide a guide to
determine which technology is better for your specific needs.
Microporous are quick drying, often waterproof, somewhat more durable
than most swellable polymer. Swellable Polymer are slower drying and a
bit more vulnerable to damage, not waterproof but allow for a longer
fade resistance.
Swellable polymer can't be used with pigment inks, in fact some
Swellable polymer paper won't produce good results with certain dye inks
either, you have to test.
Arthur Entlich
the print will be, particularly with dye inks.
Pigment inks are fairly fade resistant on their own, regardless of the
paper they are on. Of course, as mentioned they don't print well on
swellable polymer papers in most cases.
On the other hand, dye inks can benefit from the paper type. It can
make a substantial difference, over doubling the fade resistance with
the right combination.
Mary
Thank you for the information. I looked at some of the information on the
link you provided above, but some of the information on the tables stating
different brands of printers is hard to figure out, such as under the column
"Display Permanence reading" - some figures are 38, others are 8 for that
column, but I don't know what the numbers mean. The article mentions its
better to follow the manufacturers suggestions for paper and ink, but I
suppose one would have to test various papers. So far, I have tried Canon
semi gloss, 10ml which turned out nice -colors are very bright), and I have
been using Kodak Semi gloss double sides which is only 7 ml, but has been ok
for some of my printing though maybe 7 ml is not too good for photo to last
for years. For indoor photos with flash its been ok too, but with some of
them, I don't want them to fade for a long time, so mostly they are the ones
I am concerned about. Also, I guess the thickness of the photo paper is
important.
Mary
Mary
> Yes, the paper and the ink work together to determine how fade resistant
> the print will be, particularly with dye inks.
>
> Pigment inks are fairly fade resistant on their own, regardless of the
> paper they are on. Of course, as mentioned they don't print well on
> swellable polymer papers in most cases.
>
> On the other hand, dye inks can benefit from the paper type. It can
> make a substantial difference, over doubling the fade resistance with
> the right combination.
My main concern is the photos I take indoors mostly with flash of relatives
at Christmas and other times of the year. I want them to last for many years
and hope they don't fade for many years. I've been using Kodak double sided
semi gloss which seems to be ok (I don't like high gloss photos very much).
Its only 7 ml thick though. Does that make a difference with fading or how
long the photos will still look the same as when they were first printed?
Thanks.
Mary
Mary
> Yes, the paper and the ink work together to determine how fade resistant
> the print will be, particularly with dye inks.
>
> Pigment inks are fairly fade resistant on their own, regardless of the
> paper they are on. Of course, as mentioned they don't print well on
> swellable polymer papers in most cases.
>
> On the other hand, dye inks can benefit from the paper type. It can
> make a substantial difference, over doubling the fade resistance with
> the right combination.
I would have to try different photo papers I guess, but I am wondering if
the photo paper I already use mostly of the time
(Kodakm double sided, semi gloss, 7 ml) would last well and be fade
resistant. That photo paper is hard to find in stores near me.
Bob Headrick
> Thank you for the information. I looked at some of the information on the
> link you provided above, but some of the information on the tables stating
> different brands of printers is hard to figure out, such as under the
> column
> "Display Permanence reading" - some figures are 38, others are 8 for that
> column, but I don't know what the numbers mean.
The table shows the number of years for a photo printed with a particular
printer and paper combination to show "years before noticable fading and/or
changes in color balance occur" for photos stored under glass. As you can
see there is considerable difference depending on the paper used.
http://www.wilhelm-research.com/ist/WIR_IST_2007_03_HW.pdf is more recent
and shows even more dramatic results. [This is for 4x6 photo printers, but
the results should be similar with full size photo printers using the same
ink and paper combinations.]
> The article mentions its
> better to follow the manufacturers suggestions for paper and ink, but I
> suppose one would have to test various papers. So far, I have tried Canon
> semi gloss, 10ml which turned out nice -colors are very bright), and I
> have
> been using Kodak Semi gloss double sides which is only 7 ml, but has been
> ok
> for some of my printing though maybe 7 ml is not too good for photo to
> last
> for years.
The overall thickness of the paper does not have much effect on longevity.
The important factor is the formulation of the coating which varies widely
by manufacturer.
Mary
> "Mary" <n...@invalid.ddd> wrote in message news:f95ak0$2jj$1...@aioe.org...
>
> > Thank you for the information. I looked at some of the information on
the
> > link you provided above, but some of the information on the tables
stating
> > different brands of printers is hard to figure out, such as under the
> > column
> > "Display Permanence reading" - some figures are 38, others are 8 for
that
> > column, but I don't know what the numbers mean.
>
> The table shows the number of years for a photo printed with a particular
> printer and paper combination to show "years before noticable fading
and/or
> changes in color balance occur" for photos stored under glass. As you can
> see there is considerable difference depending on the paper used.
> http://www.wilhelm-research.com/ist/WIR_IST_2007_03_HW.pdf is more recent
> and shows even more dramatic results. [This is for 4x6 photo printers, but
> the results should be similar with full size photo printers using the same
> ink and paper combinations.]
That graph is a bit easier to figure out but when I looked again at the link
you gave me yesterday, I noticed the "years" part at the right side, which I
didn't see at first glance. But the graph on the above link lists photo
paper brands, but both links have good information. My printer (Canon IP
4000) and the photo paper I often use (Kodak Picture Paper, semi gloss,
double sided 8 1/2X11" is not listed. I also sometimes have used Kodak
Anytime Picture Paper , soft gloss, and its not that bad either. I get Kodak
because it has soft gloss or semi gloss at reasonable price, though semi
gloss is getting harder to find where I am located (Toronto, Canada). Also,
most photo paper I see sold here in stores is glossy or high gloss and I
don't care much for it. I like semi gloss or soft gloss better. I admit I
don't want to pay $22.00 for just 10 or 15 sheets of photo paper.
> > The article mentions its
> > better to follow the manufacturers suggestions for paper and ink, but I
> > suppose one would have to test various papers. So far, I have tried
Canon
> > semi gloss, 10ml which turned out nice -colors are very bright), and I
> > have
> > been using Kodak Semi gloss double sides which is only 7 ml, but has
been
> > ok
> > for some of my printing though maybe 7 ml is not too good for photo to
> > last
> > for years.
>
> The overall thickness of the paper does not have much effect on longevity.
> The important factor is the formulation of the coating which varies widely
> by manufacturer.
Well, I don't know much about coating. I would have to try different photo
papers in semi gloss or soft gloss.
Thank you for your help.
Mary
Ron Baird
Yes, you are right, Kodak went to microporous papers about a year and half
ago or there abouts. The changed the back printing to coincide with the new
printer technology as well. There may be some paper out in the marketplace,
but Kodak no longer makes swellable inkjet paper as of 2006. If you find
some, it is it is sold under the brandname of Kodak Ultima photo paper. Also
there is some swellable paper under the Kodak Premium photo paper but it
will say made in the USA or canada and it doesn't have the new packaging.
Current papers use the newer Microporous technology.
Talk to you soon,
Ron Baird
Eastman Kodak Company
"Arthur Entlich" <e-prin...@mvps.org> wrote in message
news:TZati.30979$fJ5.24778@pd7urf1no...
Mary
news:46b76296$0$8633$ec3e...@news.usenetmonster.com...
> Hi Art,
>
> Yes, you are right, Kodak went to microporous papers about a year and half
> ago or there abouts. The changed the back printing to coincide with the
new
> printer technology as well. There may be some paper out in the
marketplace,
> but Kodak no longer makes swellable inkjet paper as of 2006. If you find
> some, it is it is sold under the brandname of Kodak Ultima photo paper.
Also
> there is some swellable paper under the Kodak Premium photo paper but it
> will say made in the USA or canada and it doesn't have the new packaging.
> Current papers use the newer Microporous technology.
Hi Ron. Can I cut in here? If you have been following some of this thread, I
have been using Kodak "Picture Paper", double sided, soft gloss 8 1/2X11, 7
ml thickness, for a few years now. I use it mostly for printing indoor
photos of people with flash. I have a Canon printer IP4000 which I like. I
like the Kodak Picture paper quite well because I like semi or soft gloss,
rather than glossy. Its also reasonably priced compared to some other
brands. What do you think of it?
The only bad thing about it is, that photopaper is hard to find (I'm in
Toronto Canada). Staples used to carry it, but haven't stocked it for a
couple of years. Its only available from their catalog, but $15.00 for
delivery unless you buy $50.00 worth of stuff, so I won't go that route. I
found my present paper at a drug store which doesn't usually stock photo
paper.
I also occasionally use Kodak Anytime Picture Paper, soft gloss, when I can
find it.Its 6ml. It print photos better than I thought.
Mary
measekite
Arthur Entlich wrote:
> I have measekite filtered from my newsgroups, so I don't usually get
> to read his nonsense unless it it gets quoted.
I also have long winded holier than thou beat around da bush filtered
out also.
> I got tired of cutting him to ribbons, so I guess he feels like he can
> make these snide comments now that I don't see them or respond.
But you do see them. Even in this post he thinks of me.
> I hope he's getting a lot of joy from it.
:-D
> I'm just glad to be rid of the nuisance.
>
> But since I saw this, I'll expand slightly on the matter. When I
> refer to retailers I am not referring to nor expecting the sales
> clerks to have the answers to these questions.
Oh Yeah one who expects nothing is never disappointed and that is why so
many in this ng is not dissappointed with junk ink since they do not
excpect to see nice quality prints.
>
> Retailers usually have email addresses and website and other methods
> of requesting information regarding their products. This complexity
> might be well beyond measekite's ability to comprehend, but for most
> people reading here, I'm sure they fully understood that the
> information might be beyond that of a sales clerk to answer.
It might be beyond one who asks the questions too.
measekite
Arthur Entlich wrote:
> Kodak has changed their paper technology many times over the last few
> years. I have at least three types here, and Ron Baird, from Kodak
> can probably tell you which types are swellable polymer versus
> microporous.
You should not have to ask anyone. It should be labeled on the package
where people can read it.
measekite
Arthur Entlich wrote:
> Just to be clear, when you say:
>
> For photo longevity Canon ink is better than any of the other brands
> > that I have tested. I have not tested Staples, but I would be
> > surprised if it is as good as Canon.
I have been saying that for al long time and Canon ink has wven got better.
Frank
>
>
> Arthur Entlich wrote:
>
>> Just to be clear, when you say:
>>
>> For photo longevity Canon ink is better than any of the other brands
>> > that I have tested. I have not tested Staples, but I would be
>> > surprised if it is as good as Canon.
>
>
> I have been saying that for al long time and Canon ink has wven got better.
Hobbicolors inks give much better results than canon oem does.
Frank
>
>
> Arthur Entlich wrote:
>
>> Kodak has changed their paper technology many times over the last few
>> years. I have at least three types here, and Ron Baird, from Kodak
>> can probably tell you which types are swellable polymer versus
>> microporous.
>
>
> You should not have to ask anyone.
always ask...especially if a real expert is available to answer like Ron B.
It should be labeled on the package
> where people can read it.
If in doubt, always ask.
Frank
>
>
> Arthur Entlich wrote:
>
>> I have measekite filtered from my newsgroups, so I don't usually get
>> to read his nonsense unless it it gets quoted.
>
>
> I also have long winded holier than thou beat around da bush filtered
> out also.
>
>> I got tired of cutting him to ribbons, so I guess he feels like he can
>> make these snide comments now that I don't see them or respond.
>
>
> But you do see them. Even in this post he thinks of me.
>
>> I hope he's getting a lot of joy from it.
>
>
> :-D
:-(
Arthur Entlich
the posting quoted below, which I'd like to correct.
I mentioned in the original posting that Carbon Monoxide (CO) could
cause fading in some inkjet prints. What I should have stated was that
some components of car exhaust can cause fading in inkjet prints. The
cause doesn't appear to be the carbon monoxide itself, but instead some
of the Nitrogen and Sulfur oxides which are commonly produced in car
exhaust.
Thanks to JonK for bringing this to my attention.
Art
Arthur Entlich wrote:
> Hi Mary,
>
> Dye inks, overall, are not as light stable as pigment inks. Canon has
> been improving their dye ink longevity over the last several years. The
> Canon OEM inks, while better than many 3rd party are still not shining
> examples in the industry of long life fade-resistance.
>
> This is not to suggest they will fade away indoors in dark keeping.
> Fluorescent lamps, outdoor natural and halogen bulbs probably provide
> the most fade-causing UV light. To protect your images, store them in a
> relatively dry and pollution free area. Ground Ozone and other
> pollutants including carbon monoxide (from the exhaust of cars) are
> tough on dye ink prints.
>
> Using a swellable polymer paper, if the results look good, will improve
> the permanence of dye inks, but they are more vulnerable to fingerprints
> and dampness.
>
> Depending upon the ink set, Canon dye inks rate between about 2 years to
> 25 years. Most current Canon inkset are toward the mid high range.
>
>
> Art
>
>
>
Ron Baird
I like it quite a bit and use in presentations and for other applications. I
do not have trouble finding it as I am here at Kodak.
What I use is what is left of the residual product as it is no longer
available. At present Kodak offers the following papers which can be
reviewed at the following URL.
http://www.kodak.com/eknec/PageQuerier.jhtml?pq-path=10073&pq-locale=en_US&_requestid=4425
Ultra Premium Photo Paper
Premium Photo Paper
Photo Paper
For the projects you do, I would consider Kodak Photo Paper. If you have not
tried it let me know. Also, if you have a specific process you are using
that needs the noted paper, I would get all the other paper you can find.
Order up what is offered to take advantage of the lower prices and shipping
you have noted. It will save you money in the long run.
Talk to you soon, Mary,
Ron Baird
Eastman Kodak Company
"Mary" <n...@invalid.ddd> wrote in message news:f9851o$1t1$1...@aioe.org...
Mary
"Ron Baird" <ronb...@kodak.com> wrote in message
news:46b9deb1$0$989$ec3e...@news.usenetmonster.com...
> Hi Mary,
>
> I like it quite a bit and use in presentations and for other applications.
I
> do not have trouble finding it as I am here at Kodak.
> What I use is what is left of the residual product as it is no longer
> available. At present Kodak offers the following papers which can be
> reviewed at the following URL.
I mentioned "Kodak Picture Paper", double sided, soft gloss 8 1/2X11 below
and also "Kodak Anytime Picture paper", so when you say above you like it
quite a bit, do you mean Kodak Picture Paper soft gloss or do you mean
"Kodak Anytime Picture Paper" also soft gloss but not double sided and its
not quite as good quality paper as Kodak Picture Paper, but its OK.
>
http://www.kodak.com/eknec/PageQuerier.jhtml?pq-path=10073&pq-locale=en_US&_requestid=4425
>
> Ultra Premium Photo Paper
> Premium Photo Paper
> Photo Paper
Only the Ultra Premium Photo paper has soft gloss or sometimes called semi
gloss, which is hard to find. Since soft gloss or semi gloss is hard to find
here, and gloss is more common, I guess, that more people use glossy paper
for photos here in Canada and maybe everywhere. There used to be more
choices in semi gloss or soft gloss here. I don't know if the choices in
your link above are available in Canada. There is usually more choices in
the US for a lot of things we don't get here.
> For the projects you do, I would consider Kodak Photo Paper. If you have
not
> tried it let me know.
I am not sure what you mean by Kodak Photo Paper. The ones I presently have
been using are all Kodak Photo Paper as opposed to other brands. There are
different kinds of Kodak Photo paper here, gloss, high gloss, soft gloss
etc. so which kind do you mean?
>Also, if you have a specific process you are using
> that needs the noted paper, I would get all the other paper you can find.
> Order up what is offered to take advantage of the lower prices and
shipping
> you have noted. It will save you money in the long run.
I only use photo paper for printing photos, mostly of family and mostly
indoor with flash. I would have to order it from the catalog, unless I can
find it somewhere else. The Every Day Kodak photo paper which isn't bad
either, is also hard to find. I don't see it in the catalog even.
Thanks for your reply.