OT: Rob Short: Operating System Evolution
Neil Rieck
Rob Short: Operating System Evolution
Rob Short is an operating system pioneer. He helped Microsoft
transition from the 1980s with DOS and 16 bit windows into the 32 bit
world with Windows NT in the 1990s. More recently, Rob was part of the
team that further enhanced windows to take advantage of the 64 bit
processors of the new millennium. Today, he is the Vice President
overseeing development of windows kernel and virtualization...
http://www.microsoft.com/video/en/us/details/3c021020-5765-4c0a-a7b1-d6f0c90c5f1b
This 55 minute video talks about PDP-11/05, VAX-11/780, and VMS
Neil Rieck
Kitchener / Waterloo / Cambridge,
Ontario, Canada.
http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/
Neil Rieck
> From one of my online buddies:
>
> Rob Short: Operating System Evolution
> Rob Short is an operating system pioneer. He helped Microsoft
> transition from the 1980s with DOS and 16 bit windows into the 32 bit
> world with Windows NT in the 1990s. More recently, Rob was part of the
> team that further enhanced windows to take advantage of the 64 bit
> processors of the new millennium. Today, he is the Vice President
> overseeing development of windows kernel and virtualization...
>
>
> This 55 minute video talks about PDP-11/05, VAX-11/780, and VMS
>
> Neil Rieck
> Kitchener / Waterloo / Cambridge,
> Ontario, Canada.http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/
This Microsoft video:
http://www.microsoft.com/video/en/us/details/3c021020-5765-4c0a-a7b1-d6f0c90c5f1b
Or this URL which shouldn't wrap:
http://www.microsoft.com/video/en/us/details/
3c021020-5765-4c0a-a7b1-d6f0c90c5f1b
Mentions PDP-11/05, VAX-11/780, and VMS.
It also mentions uVAX, RISC, PRISM, Dave Cutler, how DEC West
(Seattle) ended up at Microsoft. How Decies influenced Microsoft. How
Decies influenced Intel after Andy Grove witnessed a demo PC built by
Decies at Microsoft (you will see the motherboard sitting on one
exec's window sill)
If you ever doubted DEC's influence on the PC industry then you should
watch this video. In essence, the people at "DEC West Seattle" did to
the PC industry what DEC did to the minicomputer industry.
Art Wiens
Cheers,
Art
--
"Cheer up ... things could get worse"
So he did ... and they did!
VAXman-
>On Dec 25, 9:18=A0am, Neil Rieck <n.ri...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>> From one of my online buddies:
>>
>> Rob Short: Operating System Evolution
>> Rob Short is an operating system pioneer. He helped Microsoft
>> transition from the 1980s with DOS and 16 bit windows into the 32 bit
>> world with Windows NT in the 1990s. More recently, Rob was part of the
>> team that further enhanced windows to take advantage of the 64 bit
>> processors of the new millennium. Today, he is the Vice President
>> overseeing development of windows kernel and virtualization...
>>
>> http://www.microsoft.com/video/en/us/details/3c021020-5765-4c0a-a7b1-...
>>
>> This 55 minute video talks about PDP-11/05, VAX-11/780, and VMS
>>
>> Neil Rieck
>> Kitchener / Waterloo / Cambridge,
>> Ontario, Canada.http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/
>
>This Microsoft video:
>0c5f1b
>
>Or this URL which shouldn't wrap:
>http://www.microsoft.com/video/en/us/details/
>3c021020-5765-4c0a-a7b1-d6f0c90c5f1b
>
>Mentions PDP-11/05, VAX-11/780, and VMS.
>
>It also mentions uVAX, RISC, PRISM, Dave Cutler, how DEC West
>(Seattle) ended up at Microsoft. How Decies influenced Microsoft. How
>Decies influenced Intel after Andy Grove witnessed a demo PC built by
>Decies at Microsoft (you will see the motherboard sitting on one
>exec's window sill)
>
>If you ever doubted DEC's influence on the PC industry then you should
>watch this video. In essence, the people at "DEC West Seattle" did to
>the PC industry what DEC did to the minicomputer industry.
>
>Neil Rieck
>Kitchener / Waterloo / Cambridge,
>Ontario, Canada.
>http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/
Just what we need, yet another Micro$oft proprietary video format to keep
those who haven't partaken of the Micro$oft tainted koolaid from viewing.
--
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG
http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
"Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"
Michael Ober
<VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote in message
news:00A96A71...@SendSpamHere.ORG...
> In article
> <aa4f3527-b538-44e8...@k19g2000yqc.googlegroups.com>, Neil
> Rieck <n.r...@sympatico.ca> writes:
>>On Dec 25, 9:18=A0am, Neil Rieck <n.ri...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>>> From one of my online buddies:
>>>
>>> Rob Short: Operating System Evolution
>>> Rob Short is an operating system pioneer. He helped Microsoft
>>> transition from the 1980s with DOS and 16 bit windows into the 32 bit
>>> world with Windows NT in the 1990s. More recently, Rob was part of the
>>> team that further enhanced windows to take advantage of the 64 bit
>>> processors of the new millennium. Today, he is the Vice President
>>> overseeing development of windows kernel and virtualization...
>>>
>>> http://www.microsoft.com/video/en/us/details/3c021020-5765-4c0a-a7b1-...
>>>
>
> Just what we need, yet another Micro$oft proprietary video format to keep
> those who haven't partaken of the Micro$oft tainted koolaid from viewing.
>
> --
> VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker
> VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG
>
Since the video works fine in Firefox, I'm assuming you're using the
original Mozilla browser. Granted, I'm using Firefox on Windows Vista. As
for proprietary, there is a WMV codec for Quicktime that should play the WMV
downloadable version just fine.
Mike.
VAXman-
Not.
Firefox on linux. It wanted something called Moonlight to be installed to
view the video. It's not WMV.
--
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG
http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
JF Mezei
> Firefox on linux. It wanted something called Moonlight to be installed to
> view the video. It's not WMV.
re: http://www.microsoft.com/video/en/us/details/3c021020-5765-4c0a-a7b1
On a Mac, it tells me that "Sorry, System is temporarily unavailable".
Neil Rieck
> In article <aa4f3527-b538-44e8-9b2a-1caa95047...@k19g2000yqc.googlegroups.com>, Neil Rieck <n.ri...@sympatico.ca> writes:
>
>
>
> >On Dec 25, 9:18=A0am, Neil Rieck <n.ri...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
> >> From one of my online buddies:
>
> >> Rob Short: Operating System Evolution
> >> Rob Short is an operating system pioneer. He helped Microsoft
> >> transition from the 1980s with DOS and 16 bit windows into the 32 bit
> >> world with Windows NT in the 1990s. More recently, Rob was part of the
> >> team that further enhanced windows to take advantage of the 64 bit
> >> processors of the new millennium. Today, he is the Vice President
> >> overseeing development of windows kernel and virtualization...
>
> >>http://www.microsoft.com/video/en/us/details/3c021020-5765-4c0a-a7b1-...
>
> >> This 55 minute video talks about PDP-11/05, VAX-11/780, and VMS
>
> >> Neil Rieck
> >> Kitchener / Waterloo / Cambridge,
> >> Ontario, Canada.http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/
>
> >This Microsoft video:
> >0c5f1b
>
> >Or this URL which shouldn't wrap:
> >http://www.microsoft.com/video/en/us/details/
> >3c021020-5765-4c0a-a7b1-d6f0c90c5f1b
>
> >Mentions PDP-11/05, VAX-11/780, and VMS.
>
> >It also mentions uVAX, RISC, PRISM, Dave Cutler, how DEC West
> >(Seattle) ended up at Microsoft. How Decies influenced Microsoft. How
> >Decies influenced Intel after Andy Grove witnessed a demo PC built by
> >Decies at Microsoft (you will see the motherboard sitting on one
> >exec's window sill)
>
> >If you ever doubted DEC's influence on the PC industry then you should
> >watch this video. In essence, the people at "DEC West Seattle" did to
> >the PC industry what DEC did to the minicomputer industry.
>
> >Neil Rieck
> >Kitchener / Waterloo / Cambridge,
> >Ontario, Canada.
> >http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/
>
> Just what we need, yet another Micro$oft proprietary video format to keep
> those who haven't partaken of the Micro$oft tainted koolaid from viewing.
>
> --
> VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG
>
> http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
>
> "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"
I use Firefox for 99% of my web activities. Firefox worked at this M$
site.
NSR
JF Mezei
the URL that was quoted later on was incomplete and that is what gave me
the "System is unavailable" message.
However, I have to worry about a big securitry flaw in OS-X. I never
agreed to have this microsoft proprietary Silverlight virus download on
my mac. So how come this video which requires Silverlight is running ?
JF Mezei
> However, I have to worry about a big securitry flaw in OS-X. I never
> agreed to have this microsoft proprietary Silverlight virus download on
> my mac. So how come this video which requires Silverlight is running ?
Tracked it down to Flip4Mac (the WMV plugin for Quicktime), it now
includes a Silverlight plugin. Need to find out how to not only disable
it, but remove it.
Michael Ober
<VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote in message
Moonlight is the Open Source version of the MS SilverLight player.
VAXman-
>On Dec 27, 11:39=A0am, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>> In article <aa4f3527-b538-44e8-9b2a-1caa95047...@k19g2000yqc.googlegroups=
>..com>, Neil Rieck <n.ri...@sympatico.ca> writes:
>>
>>
>>
>> >On Dec 25, 9:18=3DA0am, Neil Rieck <n.ri...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>> >> From one of my online buddies:
>>
>> >> Rob Short: Operating System Evolution
>> >> Rob Short is an operating system pioneer. He helped Microsoft
>> >> transition from the 1980s with DOS and 16 bit windows into the 32 bit
>> >> world with Windows NT in the 1990s. More recently, Rob was part of the
>> >> team that further enhanced windows to take advantage of the 64 bit
>> >> processors of the new millennium. Today, he is the Vice President
>> >> overseeing development of windows kernel and virtualization...
>>
>dot)ORG
>>
>> =A0http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
>>
>> =A0 "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"
>
>I use Firefox for 99% of my web activities. Firefox worked at this M$
>site.
>
>NSR
On an M$ infected box no doubt?
VAXman-
Which doesn't work, after downloading and installing, to display this video.
Arne Vajhøj
> <VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote in message
>> view the video. It's not WMV.
>
It is.
But they are one version behind and even for that they have
missing functionality.
It is definitely possible to have a SL app that does not
work with ML.
Arne
JF Mezei
> It is definitely possible to have a SL app that does not
> work with ML.
And is best to just say "NO" to Microsoft trying yet again to force itw
own proprietary standard onto the world. Just disable "Silverlight" and
don't want any content distributed in that format.
If people want to distribute content they will choose a format which is
accepted by the community.
Jan-Erik Söderholm
What is your definition of "the community ??
If I'm not wrong, 95% of the "community" run Microsoft OS and
tools so disabling those tools cuts you of from a large part
of todays world (at least the online world).
It's up to you I guess but it seems a bit silly.
Arne Vajhøj
> Arne Vajh�j wrote:
>> It is definitely possible to have a SL app that does not
>> work with ML.
>
> And is best to just say "NO" to Microsoft trying yet again to force itw
> own proprietary standard onto the world. Just disable "Silverlight" and
> don't want any content distributed in that format.
If your religion forbids you to use MS stuff, then by all means say no.
> If people want to distribute content they will choose a format which is
> accepted by the community.
According to the last statistics I have seen then 37.4% of the
computers used for internet browsing has SL installed.
Arne
VAXman-
>If I'm not wrong, 95% of the "community" run Microsoft OS and
>tools so disabling those tools cuts you of from a large part
>of todays world (at least the online world).
>It's up to you I guess but it seems a bit silly.
95%? Did you know that 87% of most statistics are conjured up out of 10%
air 45% of the time?
VAXman-
>On 28-12-2009 18:08, JF Mezei wrote:
>>> It is definitely possible to have a SL app that does not
>>> work with ML.
>>
>> And is best to just say "NO" to Microsoft trying yet again to force itw
>> own proprietary standard onto the world. Just disable "Silverlight" and
>> don't want any content distributed in that format.
>
It's not my religion that bothers me; it's M$'s climing into bed with
a particular cult that has me turning away and running for the hills.
Richard B. Gilbert
> In article <y0c_m.14037$U5.2...@newsb.telia.net>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan-Erik_S=F6derholm?= <jan-erik....@telia.com> writes:
>> JF Mezei wrote:
>>> Arne Vajh�j wrote:
>>>
>>>> It is definitely possible to have a SL app that does not
>>>> work with ML.
>>> And is best to just say "NO" to Microsoft trying yet again to force itw
>>> own proprietary standard onto the world. Just disable "Silverlight" and
>>> don't want any content distributed in that format.
>>>
>>> If people want to distribute content they will choose a format which is
>>> accepted by the community.
>> What is your definition of "the community ??
>> If I'm not wrong, 95% of the "community" run Microsoft OS and
>> tools so disabling those tools cuts you of from a large part
>> of todays world (at least the online world).
>> It's up to you I guess but it seems a bit silly.
>
> 95%? Did you know that 87% of most statistics are conjured up out of 10%
> air 45% of the time?
>
Did you know that more than 40% of the population have subnormal
intelligence? (My favorite statistic!)
Arne Vajhøj
> In article<4b395280$0$272$1472...@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?=<ar...@vajhoej.dk> writes:
>> On 28-12-2009 18:08, JF Mezei wrote:
>>> Arne Vajh�j wrote:
>>>> It is definitely possible to have a SL app that does not
>>>> work with ML.
>>>
>>> And is best to just say "NO" to Microsoft trying yet again to force itw
>>> own proprietary standard onto the world. Just disable "Silverlight" and
>>> don't want any content distributed in that format.
>>
>> If your religion forbids you to use MS stuff, then by all means say no.
>
> It's not my religion that bothers me; it's M$'s climing into bed with
> a particular cult that has me turning away and running for the hills.
MS is just another company trying to make as much money as possible.
Arne
JF Mezei
> What is your definition of "the community ??
> If I'm not wrong, 95% of the "community" run Microsoft OS and
> tools so disabling those tools cuts you of from a large part
> of todays world (at least the online world).
> It's up to you I guess but it seems a bit silly.
I've just watched a documentary about a famous american archeologist
who, in the 1930s, helped a small indian village regain a stolen
sacred rock. In doing so, he ended up in some hidden indian palace below
wich were secret caverns where an ancient cult was being practiced. Non
believers were forced to drink some blood after which, they blindly
followed the religion without questioning it.
95% had become loyal to that cult and did not question its act, and at
one point even the archeologist had succombed to the blood's powers.
But the archeologist's younger helper found a way to bring people out of
this trance with a flame and they managed to free the thousands that had
become trapped in that complex.
Perhaps the same should be done with the people who have fallen into the
blind devotion of the Microsoft cult and willl blindly accept everything
Microsoft orders them to do. It is time to throw a flame at those people
to wake them up of this false god.
Signed: JF,
who has gone to the Apple place opf worship (apple store) more often
than to church in 2009, but who also verified that there is no temple of
doom under those places of worship...
:-)
Michael Kraemer
>
> What is your definition of "the community ??
> If I'm not wrong, 95% of the "community" run Microsoft OS
"free elections" in former Eastern block states
come to mind.
Michael Kraemer
> Did you know that more than 40% of the population have subnormal
> intelligence? (My favorite statistic!)
And what's wrong with that statistic?
Michael Kraemer
>
> MS is just another company trying to make as much money as possible.
>
There are ethical and unethical ways to make money.
It is (almost) always M$ that forces proprietary
formats.
Wilm Boerhout
Same thing as with `Everyone wants an above-average income�
-Wilm
Michael Kraemer
Not quite.
Your assertion doesn't refer to a statistic,
it's a simple statement which can easily be disproved
if you find somebody who is satisfied with his income
(a buddhist monk maybe).
Mr. Gilbert's statement is an inappropriate interpretation
of an otherwise correct statistic
(normal, i.e. Gaussian distribution of human intelligence).
"Inappropriate" insofar as there's no definition
what "normal" would be in this context.
Wilm Boerhout
Oh, lighten up already. If you want to take it seriously: "average" is a
well-defined statistical term. Even if we were all monks, our incomes
could not mathematically/statistically be all "above average".
"Normal" is also a well defined statisticall term. At the "normal",
there are as many items in the population above that point as below.
Hence, the pun in Richard's statement.
/Wilm
John Wallace
> On 28-12-2009 20:44, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>
> >> On 28-12-2009 18:08, JF Mezei wrote:
> >>>> It is definitely possible to have a SL app that does not
> >>>> work with ML.
>
> >>> And is best to just say "NO" to Microsoft trying yet again to force itw
> >>> own proprietary standard onto the world. Just disable "Silverlight" and
> >>> don't want any content distributed in that format.
>
> >> If your religion forbids you to use MS stuff, then by all means say no.
>
> > It's not my religion that bothers me; it's M$'s climing into bed with
> > a particular cult that has me turning away and running for the hills.
>
> MS is just another company trying to make as much money as possible.
>
> Arne
MS may just be another company trying to make as much money as
possible, but the way they go about it seems to be historically
unique. I know of no other surviving company with so many adverse
verdicts in the legal system (anti trust and similar in the US and the
EU), and I know of no other company with such a huge external
monoculture ecosystem totally dependent on the company at the head of
the food chain, regardless of the true needs of the market. Indeed the
company at the head of this bit of food chain is more important to
many of the players (PC vendors like Dell and HP, software companies
like Symantec, companies and individuals with their MCSE/
MCP/"certified trainer" badges, etc) than the genuine but frequently
ignored needs of their end users.
Happy New Vista-Free Year.
Art Wiens
Browser statistics:
http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp
"... Internet Explorer and Firefox are the most common browsers."
Browser's O/S statistics:
http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_os.asp
"Windows XP is the most popular operating system. The Windows family counts for about 90%"
Just the facts ma'am,
Art
MetaEd
> I know of no other company with such a huge external
> monoculture ecosystem totally dependent on the company at the head of
> the food chain, regardless of the true needs of the market
Cargill and Archer Daniels Midland.
Bob Koehler
>
> Oh, lighten up already. If you want to take it seriously: "average" is a
> well-defined statistical term. Even if we were all monks, our incomes
> could not mathematically/statistically be all "above average".
It could be if you used MS applications to calculate the average
using Pentium arithmatic.
Richard B. Gilbert
Actually it's 49.99999. . . .% If you line up everyone in order from
smartest to dumbest the guy in the middle is "normal". Further there's
no reliable way to distinguish the "normal" person from any of a million
just below him in line or from any of a million just above him.
But it's a lovely example!
Steven Schweda
> Oh, lighten up already. If you want to take it seriously: "average" is a
> well-defined statistical term.
So is "median", and its definition is different., and
confusing the two concepts can lead to a lot of nonsense
> Even if we were all monks, our incomes
> could not mathematically/statistically be all "above average".
Consider a case where 99 people make $100000 and one person
makes $1. What's the average? How many people make more than
the average? (Not "all", but pretty close.)
The best way to fight sloppy thought is not, I claim, more
sloppy thought.
Richard B. Gilbert
> Wilm Boerhout wrote:
>
>> Oh, lighten up already. If you want to take it seriously: "average" is a
>> well-defined statistical term.
>
> So is "median", and its definition is different., and
> confusing the two concepts can lead to a lot of nonsense
>
IIRC the average (Mean), the mode (most common value) and the Median
(middle) are identical in the "normal" or Gaussian distribution. All
are measures of "central tendency". For further enlightenment, see your
"Statistics" text book.
VAXman-
No info on where and how these stats were collected?
4.3% Linux and 6.7% OS X totals 11%. That would leave all others at 89%;
thus, the statistic that started all this (95% WEENDOZE) is inaccurate. I
would also point out the increase trends for Linux and OS X. WEENDOZE days
are numbered.
JF Mezei
>>http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp
>>http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_os.asp
> No info on where and how these stats were collected?
http headers is how. Big question is "where". If you use the Microsoft
web site, then you will get a very low number of non Windows users.
And this does not take into account that non windows platforms often
have to lie about their OS in order to access certain web sites.
For instance, Bell Canada (who has some sort of alliance with Microsoft)
at one point simply refused access to those not running Explorer on
Windows. So a Mac user would just change the "personality" in a drop
down menu to send the Windows/Explorer identity in the HTTP request.
As a result of this shenenigan, Bell Canada could claim that 99% of its
customers ran Windows on Explorer and that it only needed to support
that platform. (Since it blocked anyone not running that platform).
Bell Canada has since removed the code that prevented access to non
Windows users, but its terms of service for internet access still
require customers to run windows and explorer.
VAXman-
>VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>
>>>http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp
>>>http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_os.asp
>
>
>> No info on where and how these stats were collected?
>
>http headers is how. Big question is "where". If you use the Microsoft
>web site, then you will get a very low number of non Windows users.
>
>And this does not take into account that non windows platforms often
>have to lie about their OS in order to access certain web sites.
>
>For instance, Bell Canada (who has some sort of alliance with Microsoft)
>at one point simply refused access to those not running Explorer on
>Windows. So a Mac user would just change the "personality" in a drop
>down menu to send the Windows/Explorer identity in the HTTP request.
I've had to do this same thing for too many web sites. I'd then send
off scathing letters to the webmaster denouncing the practice. I do
not believe that Vint Cerf and Tim Berners-Lee intended for the World
Wide Web to become the Micro$haft Myopic Mesh!
Arne Vajhøj
> In article<hhd4j9$i0t$1...@posting2.glorb.com>, Art Wiens<awi...@canwest.com> writes:
>> Just before this thread turns into Mathfest 2009, here's some "facts":
>>
>> Browser statistics:
>>
>> http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp
>>
>> "... Internet Explorer and Firefox are the most common browsers."
>>
>> Browser's O/S statistics:
>>
>> http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_os.asp
>>
>> "Windows XP is the most popular operating system. The Windows family counts for about 90%"
>>
>> Just the facts ma'am,
>> Art
>
> No info on where and how these stats were collected?
Yes.
The page says:
"Anyway, our data, collected from W3Schools' log-files, over a five year
period,"
Arne
Art Wiens
"W3Schools is the largest WEB DEVELOPERS SITE on the Internet."
http://www.w3schools.com/about/about_pagehits.asp
and then it says:
"Source: Google Analytics"
Did Tim intend the Internet to be all-Google all the time?
Cheers,
Art
--
"Cheer up ... things could get worse"
So he did ... and they did!
Arne Vajhøj
What formats are you talking about?
Every office application (MS, WP, Lotus) used their
own closed formats for decades.
MS has been actively supporting open formats
in the web world: HTTP, HTML, SOAP, WS-whatever etc..
Arne
Arne Vajhøj
> I think the stats are from their site(s):
>
> "W3Schools is the largest WEB DEVELOPERS SITE on the Internet."
They may be the largest.
But I know several good web guys that are not impressed
with the quality of the site.
Arne
JF Mezei
> MS has been actively supporting open formats
> in the web world: HTTP, HTML, SOAP, WS-whatever etc..
Microsoft has been actively promoting its own proprietary *variations*
on accepted formats and paying/pushing web sites to adopt those features
so that those who used non Mocrosoft products would have problems
accessing those sites.
Paul Sture
VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> In article <00273837$0$2224$c3e...@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei
> <jfmezei...@vaxination.ca> writes:
> >VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> >
> >>>http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp
> >>>http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_os.asp
> >
> >
> >> No info on where and how these stats were collected?
> >
> >http headers is how. Big question is "where". If you use the Microsoft
> >web site, then you will get a very low number of non Windows users.
> >
> >And this does not take into account that non windows platforms often
> >have to lie about their OS in order to access certain web sites.
> >
> >For instance, Bell Canada (who has some sort of alliance with Microsoft)
> >at one point simply refused access to those not running Explorer on
> >Windows. So a Mac user would just change the "personality" in a drop
> >down menu to send the Windows/Explorer identity in the HTTP request.
>
> I've had to do this same thing for too many web sites. I'd then send
> off scathing letters to the webmaster denouncing the practice. I do
> not believe that Vint Cerf and Tim Berners-Lee intended for the World
> Wide Web to become the Micro$haft Myopic Mesh!
I too used to write complaints and received some surprisingly haughty
replies. The most haughty and indignant replies came from those who
_really_ couldn't understand the concept of a locked down (corporate)
PC, which told me more than they wanted probably wanted to let me know
:-)
From a webmaster's point of view, I see that browser usage can and does
vary greatly with web site content.
--
Paul Sture
Paul Sture
Art Wiens <awi...@canwest.com> wrote:
> I think the stats are from their site(s):
>
> "W3Schools is the largest WEB DEVELOPERS SITE on the Internet."
>
> http://www.w3schools.com/about/about_pagehits.asp
>
> and then it says:
>
> "Source: Google Analytics"
>
> Did Tim intend the Internet to be all-Google all the time?
>
I believe that Google Analytics only works for Java enabled browsers.
Quite apart from those of us who prefer to run without JS enabled for
technical reasons, my experience with my recently retired iBook
indicates that many with older systems might well turn it off because
their systems don't have enough steam to cope with Ajax heavy sites (or
simply want to disable intrusive adverts).
--
Paul Sture
Paul Sture
Paul Sture
Wilm Boerhout <w6.bo...@planet.nl> wrote:
A better analogy is "Everyone thinks they are a better than average
driver".
--
Paul Sture
Paul Sture
Jan-Erik S�derholm <jan-erik....@telia.com> wrote:
> JF Mezei wrote:
> > Arne Vajh�j wrote:
> >
> >> It is definitely possible to have a SL app that does not
> >> work with ML.
> >
> > And is best to just say "NO" to Microsoft trying yet again to force itw
> > own proprietary standard onto the world. Just disable "Silverlight" and
> > don't want any content distributed in that format.
> >
> > If people want to distribute content they will choose a format which is
> > accepted by the community.
>
> What is your definition of "the community ??
> If I'm not wrong, 95% of the "community" run Microsoft OS and
> tools so disabling those tools cuts you of from a large part
> of todays world (at least the online world).
> It's up to you I guess but it seems a bit silly.
I remember a job agency using that 95% figure to justify rewriting their
web site to cater for MSIE _only_.
They forgot that their largest corporate customer didn't run MSIE.
--
Paul Sture
Arne Vajhøj
> In article<hhdnij$jah$1...@posting2.glorb.com>,
> Art Wiens<awi...@canwest.com> wrote:
>
>> I think the stats are from their site(s):
>>
>> "W3Schools is the largest WEB DEVELOPERS SITE on the Internet."
>>
>> http://www.w3schools.com/about/about_pagehits.asp
>>
>> and then it says:
>>
>> "Source: Google Analytics"
>>
>> Did Tim intend the Internet to be all-Google all the time?
>
> I believe that Google Analytics only works for Java enabled browsers.
I assume that you mean JavaScript enabled.
Sounds very likely since Google is very much into AJAX,
> Quite apart from those of us who prefer to run without JS enabled for
> technical reasons, my experience with my recently retired iBook
> indicates that many with older systems might well turn it off because
> their systems don't have enough steam to cope with Ajax heavy sites (or
> simply want to disable intrusive adverts).
The last statistics I saw said that >99.9% of users of search
engines had JavaScript support.
JavaScript is just a given today.
Arne
Arne Vajhøj
IE only principle is dead today. FireFox and recently Chrome
have changed that.
Arne
Paul Sture
> I think the stats are from their site(s):
>
> "W3Schools is the largest WEB DEVELOPERS SITE on the Internet."
>
> http://www.w3schools.com/about/about_pagehits.asp
>
> and then it says:
>
> "Source: Google Analytics"
>
> Did Tim intend the Internet to be all-Google all the time?
>
I believe that Google Analytics only works for Javascript enabled
browsers.
Quite apart from those of us who prefer to run without JS enabled for
technical reasons, my experience with my recently retired iBook
indicates that many with older systems might well turn it off because
their systems don't have enough steam to cope with Ajax heavy sites (or
simply want to disable intrusive adverts).
--
Paul Sture
Neil Rieck
> Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote:
> > What is your definition of "the community ??
> > If I'm not wrong, 95% of the "community" run Microsoft OS and
> > tools so disabling those tools cuts you of from a large part
> > of todays world (at least the online world).
> > It's up to you I guess but it seems a bit silly.
>
> who, in the 1930s, helped a small indian village regain a stolen
> sacred rock. In doing so, he ended up in some hidden indian palace below
> wich were secret caverns where an ancient cult was being practiced. Non
> believers were forced to drink some blood after which, they blindly
> followed the religion without questioning it.
>
> 95% had become loyal to that cult and did not question its act, and at
> one point even the archeologist had succombed to the blood's powers.
> But the archeologist's younger helper found a way to bring people out of
> this trance with a flame and they managed to free the thousands that had
> become trapped in that complex.
>
> Perhaps the same should be done with the people who have fallen into the
> blind devotion of the Microsoft cult and willl blindly accept everything
> Microsoft orders them to do. It is time to throw a flame at those people
> to wake them up of this false god.
>
> Signed: JF,
> who has gone to the Apple place opf worship (apple store) more often
> than to church in 2009, but who also verified that there is no temple of
> doom under those places of worship...
>
> :-)
You are correct about people looking upon technology as a religion. I
was once a huge fan of the Apple religion until I watched Apple make a
series of product changes which proved to me that Apple management was
less involved in the Apple religion than their customers (but to be
fair, every company needs to remain profitable). I have also
encountered people in the Windows religion, Macintosh religion, Sun-
Solaris religion, HP-UX religion, VAX religion, VMS religion, an so
forth.
It is easy to see why people might get involved in the VAX or VMS
religion since these platforms were so damned reliable. Both DEC and
Compaq knew it so kept the prices high.
It is east to see why people like Macs. Just like OpenVMS on VAX,
Alpha or Itanium, Apple is able to control the hardware base so that
the whole product line is a whole lot more stable. But like VMS based
products, Macs are more expensive that their Windows counter parts
(and here I am talking about Intel based Macs with Core i7 processors)
It is easy to see why people hate Microsoft and Windows. Microsoft was
doing both questionable and illegal things (re: Netscape as just one
example) while they got filthy rich. Meanwhile, Windows 3.1 and 3.11
were both a joke compared to the MacOS and Solaris at that time. And
don't even get me started about the Blue Screen of Death. But to be
fair to Microsoft, I new lots of people attempting to install Windows
it on really cheap third party hardware. Forget about trying to
overclock that stuff, the hardware barely worked at the rated speed.
When those things crashed everyone scoffed at Windows. But around 1992
I found myself in a Toronto office for a month where everyone (~30
people) were running Windows on Compaq hardware and never heard or saw
a Windows lockup or crash (and we were running engineering software
from SynOptics).
Today, lots of people (including some in this newsgroup) still have a
hate on for Microsoft products but I think it is time to point out the
obvious:
1) DEC screwed up big-time by chasing some of their Seattle employees
into the waiting arms of Bill gates
2) ex-DEC employees at Microsoft did, to the PC industry, what DEC did
to the minicomputer industry (made it respectable).
3) there were two Windows code bases as Microsoft (vanilla Windows
which was promoted by Microsoft employees, and NT which was created
then promoted by mostly ex-DEC employees). Since Windows-XP, the
efforts of the ex-DEC employees has completely eliminated the vanilla
Windows code base. Since then, I personally have never experienced a
Windows lockup or the blue screen of death.
4) the changes forced upon Intel by the ex-DEC employees at Microsoft
probably helped to make Intel the juggernaut it is today.
5) like the story of "the tortoise and the hare", Windows is getting
incrementally better each release while the hares (us) still scoff at
it. The Vista fiasco was supposedly caused by a combination of lax
management (no more Bill Gates) along with the retirement of ex-DEC
employees (they actually had to bring Dave Cutler back from retirement
to move a few things along). Although MS was able to repair Vista then
re-release it as Windows-7, this means that Microsoft is not immune to
mismanagement.
Will I ever trade in an OpenVMS system for a Windows system? Not
anytime soon, if ever. I still consider Windows machines to be PCs but
it would be wrong for me to think that this will always be the case.
After all, we once saw large VAX clusters take a big bite out of the
IBM mainframe business.
NSR
John Vottero
news:hhcfhb$6hu$00$1...@news.t-online.com...
> Arne Vajh�j schrieb:
>
>>
>> MS is just another company trying to make as much money as possible.
>>
>
> There are ethical and unethical ways to make money.
> It is (almost) always M$ that forces proprietary
> formats.
Are you suggesting that is is unethical to create proprietary systems?
Doesn't that make OpenVMS unethical?
VAXman-
If that's its definition, then WEENDOZE is very much unethical.
I still fail to understand how people mistake ubiquity with openness.
JF Mezei
>
> You are correct about people looking upon technology as a religion. I
> was once a huge fan of the Apple religion until I watched Apple make a
> series of product changes which proved to me that Apple management was
> less involved in the Apple religion than their customers
I would agree with that. Apple simply fosters te religion and then takes
advantage of the loyalty of its customer base. God (Steve Jobs) rarely
touches the customers.
However, the Apple religion is about being different, and better quality
than the other religion.
The Windows religion is about comforming with the rest of the world, it
is about not being different and doing the same stuff as everyone else.
You don't see Windows missionaries pushing that Windows is better. Their
only argument is that it is "compatible" because everyone uses it.
The Windows religion is also not as strong. There is much less
convinction in it than in the Apple religion. Windows followers just
blindly buy Windows because tey feel it is the only option.
> It is easy to see why people might get involved in the VAX or VMS
> religion since these platforms were so damned reliable. Both DEC and
> Compaq knew it so kept the prices high.
In the 1980s, when the VMS religion grew strong, ut was quite similar to
Apple: be different and choose something than it better than IBM. We al
cheered seeing the little guy (Digital) beat the giant. Little did we
know that Digital became a giant.
The part about cheering about VMS winnning is gone now. I think the last
couple years removed any hope that HP would let VMS fight for new business.
All that is left now is the pride in VMS being a high quality system
that was well thought out back in the 1980s.
> But like VMS based
> products, Macs are more expensive that their Windows counter parts
> (and here I am talking about Intel based Macs with Core i7 processors)
The "more expensive" portion falls apart when you customize the PC to
have the same features as the Mac. PCs have a much lower entry price,
but when you load them up with the same features as the Mac, the price
gets very close (if not higher).
But yeah, there is an "Apple tax". Just like you pay for the tiger icon
in front of a jaguar, you pay for the lighted Apple logo on the laptop.
> 1) DEC screwed up big-time by chasing some of their Seattle employees
> into the waiting arms of Bill gates
DEC screwed up big time. Period. End of story.
> 2) ex-DEC employees at Microsoft did, to the PC industry, what DEC did
> to the minicomputer industry (made it respectable).
There is a major difference between Microsoft and DEC. Microsoft is a
marketing driven company with marketing dictating what features need to
be added. Digital, having no marketing, was more driven by the needs of
customers and by ideas from its engineers.
Note that Apple is also a marketing driven company. Having transparent
menu backgrounds (especially with the "Dock") is absolutely annoying.
But it made for a great deal of "Ohhh, Wow ! from the audience when
Steve Jobs presented this tehnology a few years back. And there isn't a
way to turn it off.
> 4) the changes forced upon Intel by the ex-DEC employees at Microsoft
> probably helped to make Intel the juggernaut it is today.
No. It prevented Microsoft from going down fast because its softare was
so instable that people started to migrate to the Mac fast. Remember
that between Windows 95 and Windows XP was a slew of other releases that
were lackluster.
And it appears that XP is to Windows what 5.5-2 was to VMS. The one
stabel release people stay on.
> it. The Vista fiasco was supposedly caused by a combination of lax
> management (no more Bill Gates) along with the retirement of ex-DEC
> employees (they actually had to bring Dave Cutler back from retirement
> to move a few things along).
I think XP was the exception at Microsoft. It was forced to make
something that worked. (in fact, the virus prooblem had gootten so out
of hand that Microsoft had to issues a "SP" (patch) which turned XP
respectable and closed all the opened ports that made it so easy to
infect a Windows computer.
Vista was back at the "marketing" force, except that it failed because
they added so many new features that Vista didnt run on existing PCs.
This is where Apple is pretty good: adding features that don't weigh
down the system too much. It is a shame that many of those features are
only worth anything during the keynote address to impress the audience
and have no value during day to day use. But many features do have a lot
of value.
> Will I ever trade in an OpenVMS system for a Windows system? Not
> anytime soon,
I am in the process of moving to OS-X. Quite a learning process. It is
still too early for me to fairly compare both because I have yet to
learn a lot more on OS-X to be at the same level of confort as I am with
VMS. Just because things are different doesn't mean they aren't as good.
But in terms of security, I certaintly don't feel comfortable with OS-X.
It lacks proper intrusion system (one that doesn't disable accounts
permanently). It also lacks OPCOM. A real little jewell for VMS. There
may be one syslog on OS-X, but there are different log files. Some
errors for Apache (such as if it finds a syntax error in a config file)
go to the main system log, but the rest goes to the Apache log.
There are management tools which are very neat for the Xserve. But they
need a little extra touch to make them really trustable. For instance,
the GUY System Admin tool should have a button in the DSN tab to "don't
screw with my zone files". By default, it takes the info you enter n the
gui to create/update zone files. It has itw onw store of information
used for the GUI and from that, it generates the zone files for Bind9.
This is neat for a newbie who doesn't know what Bind/DNS is, but a pain
for a more experienced system manager who isporting existing zone files
to OS-X.
I often fell they should hire someone like Hoff to put some VMS stuff
into the Xserve version of OS-X.
Arne Vajhøj
VMS certainly has a lot of proprietary formats.
But somehow I think that the problem is not the proprietary
formats but instead the company behind them.
Arne
John Vottero
news:00A96DAF...@SendSpamHere.ORG...
> In article <CR6%m.10040$0U1....@newsfe16.iad>, "John Vottero"
> <JVot...@mvpsi.com> writes:
>>"Michael Kraemer" <M.Kr...@gsi.de> wrote in message
>>news:hhcfhb$6hu$00$1...@news.t-online.com...
>>> Arne Vajh�j schrieb:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> MS is just another company trying to make as much money as possible.
>>>>
>>>
>>> There are ethical and unethical ways to make money.
>>> It is (almost) always M$ that forces proprietary
>>> formats.
>>
>>Are you suggesting that is is unethical to create proprietary systems?
>>Doesn't that make OpenVMS unethical?
>
> If that's its definition, then WEENDOZE is very much unethical.
>
> I still fail to understand how people mistake ubiquity with openness.
I agree! Windows and OpenVMS are both proprietary operating systems which
is one of the attributes that makes them GOOD!
John Vottero
news:001c305f$0$28514$c3e...@news.astraweb.com...
> Neil Rieck wrote:
>>
>> You are correct about people looking upon technology as a religion. I
>> was once a huge fan of the Apple religion until I watched Apple make a
>> series of product changes which proved to me that Apple management was
>> less involved in the Apple religion than their customers
>
> I would agree with that. Apple simply fosters te religion and then takes
> advantage of the loyalty of its customer base. God (Steve Jobs) rarely
> touches the customers.
>
> However, the Apple religion is about being different, and better quality
> than the other religion.
>
> The Windows religion is about comforming with the rest of the world, it
> is about not being different and doing the same stuff as everyone else.
If Windows was about "not being different", they would have stuck with Java
instead of inventing the .NET Framework.
>
> You don't see Windows missionaries pushing that Windows is better. Their
> only argument is that it is "compatible" because everyone uses it.
>
That's not what I see. Everything that I see is about doing something
better.
One of the things that made OpenVMS great was the OpenVMS Calling Standard
which enable mixed language development. This enabled the creation of a
large set of system services, libraries and utilities which could all be
written in any language and called from any language.
Microsoft created the Common Language Runtime (CLR) which improved on the
OpenVMS Calling Standard and extended it to support object oriented
environments. This enabled the creation of the .NET Framework which is a
large collection of services, libraries and utilities (and it's growing
fast!).
Look at PowerShell, the Microsoft Engineer that created PowerShell is an
ex-Digit who admits that DCL was one of the inspirations for PowerShell.
PowerShell is a huge improvement over any other command-line environment.
I work on Windows because it provides a better development environment than
anything else that I've seen. If I want to develop an app for the Mac, what
are my choices? C++, Java and Hypercard?
> The Windows religion is also not as strong. There is much less
That's because it's logic, not religion.
> convinction in it than in the Apple religion. Windows followers just
> blindly buy Windows because tey feel it is the only option.
>
>
[snip]
>
>> 2) ex-DEC employees at Microsoft did, to the PC industry, what DEC did
>> to the minicomputer industry (made it respectable).
>
> There is a major difference between Microsoft and DEC. Microsoft is a
> marketing driven company with marketing dictating what features need to
> be added. Digital, having no marketing, was more driven by the needs of
> customers and by ideas from its engineers.
You have to have both marketing and product. The main difference I see
between DEC and Microsoft is that Microsoft is willing to address their own
weaknesses. Microsoft has (and does) put huge amounts of effort into
improving the security of their products. DEC wouldn't even admit that they
had a marketing problem.
John Vottero
Paul Sture
"John Vottero" <JVot...@mvpsi.com> wrote:
> I work on Windows because it provides a better development environment than
> anything else that I've seen. If I want to develop an app for the Mac, what
> are my choices? C++, Java and Hypercard?
On the Mac nowadays, you'd use Objective-C and Cocoa.
Hypercard is long since dead:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HyperCard>
although my search also picked up a product called SuperCard, which may
be of interest to long term Mac users.
<http://mac360.com/index.php/mac360/comments/did_you_think_apples_hyperca
rd_was_dead_almost/>
--
Paul Sture
JF Mezei
> On the Mac nowadays, you'd use Objective-C and Cocoa.
Mac also has standard C compiler. And supports modern X toolkits such as
GTK. (not sure if GTK is provided by Apple or if it comes wirth other
applications such as Wireshark.
Arne Vajhøj
> "JF Mezei" <jfmezei...@vaxination.ca> wrote in message
> news:001c305f$0$28514$c3e...@news.astraweb.com...
>> Neil Rieck wrote:
>>>
>>> You are correct about people looking upon technology as a religion. I
>>> was once a huge fan of the Apple religion until I watched Apple make a
>>> series of product changes which proved to me that Apple management was
>>> less involved in the Apple religion than their customers
>>
>> I would agree with that. Apple simply fosters te religion and then takes
>> advantage of the loyalty of its customer base. God (Steve Jobs) rarely
>> touches the customers.
>>
>> However, the Apple religion is about being different, and better quality
>> than the other religion.
>>
>> The Windows religion is about comforming with the rest of the world, it
>> is about not being different and doing the same stuff as everyone else.
>
> If Windows was about "not being different", they would have stuck with
> Java instead of inventing the .NET Framework.
They had some legal problems with SUN.
>> You don't see Windows missionaries pushing that Windows is better. Their
>> only argument is that it is "compatible" because everyone uses it.
>>
>
> That's not what I see. Everything that I see is about doing something
> better.
>
> One of the things that made OpenVMS great was the OpenVMS Calling
> Standard which enable mixed language development. This enabled the
> creation of a large set of system services, libraries and utilities
> which could all be written in any language and called from any language.
>
> Microsoft created the Common Language Runtime (CLR) which improved on
> the OpenVMS Calling Standard and extended it to support object oriented
> environments. This enabled the creation of the .NET Framework which is a
> large collection of services, libraries and utilities (and it's growing
> fast!).
CLR (or actually CTS) provides the same for a modern development
environment as VMS calling standard did a couple of decades ago.
But I don't think there is any direct inspiration. Anders H has as far
as I know no VMS background at all.
And even though it was not pushed by SUN, then the JVM had already
showed the concept in the late 90's by allowing mixing of Java code,
Ada code (JGnat) and Python code (Jython).
Arne
Arne Vajhøj
> The Windows religion is about comforming with the rest of the world, it
> is about not being different and doing the same stuff as everyone else.
MS is leading not following when it comes to desktop UI, office
package etc..
> You don't see Windows missionaries pushing that Windows is better. Their
> only argument is that it is "compatible" because everyone uses it.
>
> The Windows religion is also not as strong. There is much less
> convinction in it than in the Apple religion. Windows followers just
> blindly buy Windows because tey feel it is the only option.
Sure you do. You just need to be in the pro-Windows circles. comp.os.vms
is not where you find them though.
>> 4) the changes forced upon Intel by the ex-DEC employees at Microsoft
>> probably helped to make Intel the juggernaut it is today.
>
> No. It prevented Microsoft from going down fast because its softare was
> so instable that people started to migrate to the Mac fast. Remember
> that between Windows 95 and Windows XP was a slew of other releases that
> were lackluster.
People were quite happy with 98 SE.
>> it. The Vista fiasco was supposedly caused by a combination of lax
>> management (no more Bill Gates) along with the retirement of ex-DEC
>> employees (they actually had to bring Dave Cutler back from retirement
>> to move a few things along).
>
> I think XP was the exception at Microsoft. It was forced to make
> something that worked. (in fact, the virus prooblem had gootten so out
> of hand that Microsoft had to issues a "SP" (patch) which turned XP
> respectable and closed all the opened ports that made it so easy to
> infect a Windows computer.
>
> Vista was back at the "marketing" force, except that it failed because
> they added so many new features that Vista didnt run on existing PCs.
Most Windows version were actually quite popular with the users.
The only non-popular Windows version I know of is ME.
Even the much criticized Vista is the second most selling OS version in
history.
Arne
Arne Vajhøj
Care to mention the specific variations for HTTP, SOAP and WS
let us take WS-S?
Arne
VAXman-
><VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote in message
>news:00A96DAF...@SendSpamHere.ORG...
>> <JVot...@mvpsi.com> writes:
>>>"Michael Kraemer" <M.Kr...@gsi.de> wrote in message
>>>news:hhcfhb$6hu$00$1...@news.t-online.com...
>>>> Arne Vajh�j schrieb:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> MS is just another company trying to make as much money as possible.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There are ethical and unethical ways to make money.
>>>> It is (almost) always M$ that forces proprietary
>>>> formats.
>>>
>>>Are you suggesting that is is unethical to create proprietary systems?
>>>Doesn't that make OpenVMS unethical?
>>
>> If that's its definition, then WEENDOZE is very much unethical.
>>
>> I still fail to understand how people mistake ubiquity with openness.
>
>is one of the attributes that makes them GOOD!
You mean, it's the attribute that makes one of them good. WEENDOZE can
never be considered good; not even poor! Crap is the proper adjective
to describe WEENDOZE.
Richard B. Gilbert
> On 31-12-2009 14:44, JF Mezei wrote:
>> The Windows religion is about comforming with the rest of the world, it
>> is about not being different and doing the same stuff as everyone else.
>
> MS is leading not following when it comes to desktop UI, office
> package etc..
>
>> You don't see Windows missionaries pushing that Windows is better. Their
>> only argument is that it is "compatible" because everyone uses it.
> >
> > The Windows religion is also not as strong. There is much less
> > convinction in it than in the Apple religion. Windows followers just
> > blindly buy Windows because tey feel it is the only option.
>
> Sure you do. You just need to be in the pro-Windows circles. comp.os.vms
> is not where you find them though.
>
>>> 4) the changes forced upon Intel by the ex-DEC employees at Microsoft
>>> probably helped to make Intel the juggernaut it is today.
>>
>> No. It prevented Microsoft from going down fast because its softare was
>> so instable that people started to migrate to the Mac fast. Remember
>> that between Windows 95 and Windows XP was a slew of other releases that
>> were lackluster.
>
> People were quite happy with 98 SE.
>
opportunities for the authors of "malware".
W/XP was better still. There were, and still are, security fixes to be
applied but XP has proven to be a very solid and stable release.
I haven't tried Vista yet. I may never try it. W/XP meets my needs.
Richard B. Gilbert
> In article <THs%m.3839$Gf3....@newsfe22.iad>, "John Vottero" <JVot...@mvpsi.com> writes:
>> <VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote in message
>> news:00A96DAF...@SendSpamHere.ORG...
>>> In article <CR6%m.10040$0U1....@newsfe16.iad>, "John Vottero"
>>> <JVot...@mvpsi.com> writes:
>>>> "Michael Kraemer" <M.Kr...@gsi.de> wrote in message
>>>> news:hhcfhb$6hu$00$1...@news.t-online.com...
>>>>> Arne Vajh�j schrieb:
>>>>>
>>>>>> MS is just another company trying to make as much money as possible.
>>>>>>
>>>>> There are ethical and unethical ways to make money.
>>>>> It is (almost) always M$ that forces proprietary
>>>>> formats.
>>>> Are you suggesting that is is unethical to create proprietary systems?
>>>> Doesn't that make OpenVMS unethical?
>>> If that's its definition, then WEENDOZE is very much unethical.
>>>
>>> I still fail to understand how people mistake ubiquity with openness.
>> I agree! Windows and OpenVMS are both proprietary operating systems which
>> is one of the attributes that makes them GOOD!
>
> You mean, it's the attribute that makes one of them good. WEENDOZE can
> never be considered good; not even poor! Crap is the proper adjective
> to describe WEENDOZE.
>
You are living in the past Brian! W/XP is quite usable and I have been
using it for several years now. W/2K wasn't all that bad either. I ran
Windows 2.x so I know what "bad" *IS*!!
VAXman-
>VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>> In article <THs%m.3839$Gf3....@newsfe22.iad>, "John Vottero" <JVot...@mvpsi.com> writes:
>>> <VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote in message
>>> news:00A96DAF...@SendSpamHere.ORG...
>>>> In article <CR6%m.10040$0U1....@newsfe16.iad>, "John Vottero"
>>>> <JVot...@mvpsi.com> writes:
>>>>> "Michael Kraemer" <M.Kr...@gsi.de> wrote in message
>>>>> news:hhcfhb$6hu$00$1...@news.t-online.com...
>>>>>> Arne Vajh�j schrieb:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> MS is just another company trying to make as much money as possible.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> There are ethical and unethical ways to make money.
>>>>>> It is (almost) always M$ that forces proprietary
>>>>>> formats.
>>>>> Are you suggesting that is is unethical to create proprietary systems?
>>>>> Doesn't that make OpenVMS unethical?
>>>> If that's its definition, then WEENDOZE is very much unethical.
>>>>
>>>> I still fail to understand how people mistake ubiquity with openness.
>>> I agree! Windows and OpenVMS are both proprietary operating systems which
>>> is one of the attributes that makes them GOOD!
>>
>> You mean, it's the attribute that makes one of them good. WEENDOZE can
>> never be considered good; not even poor! Crap is the proper adjective
>> to describe WEENDOZE.
>>
>
>using it for several years now. W/2K wasn't all that bad either. I ran
>Windows 2.x so I know what "bad" *IS*!!
Even the newest version -- WEENDOZE 7 Deadly Sins -- looks cheese on the
few I've checked out at the Staples, Best Buys, etc. You'd think that a
company with all that money could and would hire at least one decent art-
ist to make its product not look pale next to Super Mario Brothers.
Arne Vajhøj
Next time you buy a computer it will most likely come with 7.
Arne
Arne Vajhøj
> In article<THs%m.3839$Gf3....@newsfe22.iad>, "John Vottero"<JVot...@mvpsi.com> writes:
>> <VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote in message
>> news:00A96DAF...@SendSpamHere.ORG...
>>> In article<CR6%m.10040$0U1....@newsfe16.iad>, "John Vottero"
>>> <JVot...@mvpsi.com> writes:
>>>> "Michael Kraemer"<M.Kr...@gsi.de> wrote in message
>>>> news:hhcfhb$6hu$00$1...@news.t-online.com...
>>>>> Arne Vajh�j schrieb:
>>>>>> MS is just another company trying to make as much money as possible.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> There are ethical and unethical ways to make money.
>>>>> It is (almost) always M$ that forces proprietary
>>>>> formats.
>>>>
>>>> Are you suggesting that is is unethical to create proprietary systems?
>>>> Doesn't that make OpenVMS unethical?
>>>
>>> If that's its definition, then WEENDOZE is very much unethical.
>>>
>>> I still fail to understand how people mistake ubiquity with openness.
>>
>> I agree! Windows and OpenVMS are both proprietary operating systems which
>> is one of the attributes that makes them GOOD!
>
> You mean, it's the attribute that makes one of them good. WEENDOZE can
> never be considered good; not even poor! Crap is the proper adjective
> to describe WEENDOZE.
Windows is a pretty big OS with a lot of different features.
I am surprised that you find all of them crap.
Arne
Richard B. Gilbert
Picky, picky, picky! I don't use Windows for it's looks. I use it to
read my mail and newsgroups. Sometimes I even send mail. Once a month
I print checks to pay my bills.
What, for example, is Windows going to do with e-mail that has a
photograph as an attachment? That's right! It will display the text and
the photograph! What will VMS do with the same message? It *might*
succeed in rendering the text. The photograph? Forget it!
If I want to do some programming I crank up Reflection 4
(VT-100/200/300/400/etc. emulation) and connect to my VAX or Alpha
systems. I have a real VT-510 terminal but I seldom use it for
anything; the PC and Reflection is a lot more convenient.
Richard B. Gilbert
And I may very well install W/XP anyway!
Richard B. Gilbert
I think that, for Brian, it's a matter of religious belief. Heretics
will be burned at the stake!
JF Mezei
> Windows is a pretty big OS with a lot of different features.
> I am surprised that you find all of them crap.
Come on, it,s Mr VAXman that we're talking about ! He has strong
principles against Microsoft and Windows. He has not drunk the MS
Kool-Aid as many here seems to have done in recent times.
And when you despise a corporation, it is very hard to see anything
positive in their products.
Arne Vajhøj
But why bother. If it is a new PC it has the power to run 7.
And you will have better chances of getting drivers for new
hardware and running new versions of applications that requires
new OS plus much better 64 bit version plus certain extra
security features.
Arne
Richard B. Gilbert
Better the devil I know than the devil I don't! Besides, everything
I've heard about Windows Vista has been negative. I'm sure Microsoft
loves it but does anyone else?
Arne Vajhøj
> heard about Windows Vista has been negative. I'm sure Microsoft loves it
> but does anyone else?
There are people that like Vista.
And 7 is actually relative popular.
Arne
Arne Vajhøj
"It's Nothing Personal - It's Just Business"
Arne
Michael Kraemer
> "Michael Kraemer" <M.Kr...@gsi.de> wrote in message
>
> Are you suggesting that is is unethical to create proprietary systems?
> Doesn't that make OpenVMS unethical?
I wouldn't care much whether an OS is proprietary or open source,
as long as it is affordable and does the job.
The annoying thing with M$, however, is that they flood
the net (and IT in general) with proprietary,
often undocumented formats, which forces people
to buy Windoze PCs. And they do so with full intention.
That's a drug dealer's attitude, IMHO.
I'm not aware of other companies doing that to a similar extent.
Take Adobe as a counter example, they don't
force you to buy their products just to view
PS or PDF. Both formats are well documented
and thus several readers exist, on a lot of platforms.
Michael Kraemer
I wonder if this is a VMS or a Windoze advocacy group.
Michael Kraemer
>
> What, for example, is Windows going to do with e-mail that has a
> photograph as an attachment? That's right! It will display the text and
> the photograph! What will VMS do with the same message? It *might*
> succeed in rendering the text. The photograph? Forget it!
And what about the open source browsers and email clients which made
it to VMS?
Michael Kraemer
>
> Next time you buy a computer it will most likely come with 7.
"computer" != Windoze PC.
If I'd buy a Mac, it would run MacOS.
VAXman-
>read my mail and newsgroups. Sometimes I even send mail. Once a month
>I print checks to pay my bills.
Mail => VMS; if it has attachments, I move that email to a special folder
so that I can then read that email on either my Linux laptop or on my Mac.
Newsgroups => VMS; I don't frequent the alt.binaries.sex.pervsion-of-the-
month-club newsgroups so I have no need whatsoever for a graphical reader.
The lovely Mrs. VAXman pays bills via the bank's on-line billing system on
a Mac compliments of its wonderful Apple Universal Access features; ergo,
no checks and no need to even print checks; oh, and certainly no need for
WEENDOZE.
Audio, music, graphics, video, composition, etc. Mac has it hands-down to
WEENDOZE. Resistance is futile. ;) I sat in the Apple store at the mall
during the holidays as the rest of the family was shopped. (I hate shop-
ping and the gout was acting up.) Macs, MacBooks and MacBookPros were on
the way out the door faster than I could count them.
>What, for example, is Windows going to do with e-mail that has a
>photograph as an attachment? That's right! It will display the text and
>the photograph! What will VMS do with the same message? It *might*
>succeed in rendering the text. The photograph? Forget it!
I've extracted attached photos from VMS mail and decoded them for viewing
on VMS. Most of the time, such attachments are just stupid things that a
friend or relative has decided I too must view. I simply move these to a
special folder and view them on my Linux laptop or on my Mac. For *REAL*
phtography, I use my Mac and Aperture and, of course, my *REAL* cameras;
not point-and-click toys like you find at WalMart, Target and Best Buys.
I often move these (and other) images to the Linux Laptop where I will do
some additional manipulation with GIMP before putting the images on a web
site. No WEENDOZE. Reading the email on VMS, I can quickly see if said
attachment is any proprietary M$ format to wit the message is forwarded to
the wastebasket folder.
>If I want to do some programming I crank up Reflection 4
>(VT-100/200/300/400/etc. emulation) and connect to my VAX or Alpha
>systems. I have a real VT-510 terminal but I seldom use it for
>anything; the PC and Reflection is a lot more convenient.
If I want to do some programming, I open a term on my Linux laptop or on
my Mac. With the aid of a handful of key mappings in .Xmodmap, I can do
everything on these two platforms that I can on true VT... and I can even
use the alternate keypads on these and have EDT functions of delete-char
and delete-word in the SAME PHYSICAL LOCATIONS that they would above the
[enter] key on the VT's LK keyboard. I'm waiting to hear how WEENDOZErz
do that on their PeeCees.
I have also installed 'latd' and 'mopd' so I can access terminal servers
and other DEC devices on the network. Can you do that on WEENDOZE? With-
out paying Billzebub?
FWIW, my father-in-law bought my kid a Nintendo-Wii for Christmas. It's
Linux. I've downloaded a number of apps, stored them on a SD flash card
and run them. The browser on the Wii is Opera. The interface (the wand
used to point) is a bit more cumbersome than a mouse but it does work. I
was able to get it to recognize all of my LK-463 keys, but I kept the HP
PeeCee keyboard shipped with an Itanium connected to the Wii for the kid
to use. NO WEENDOZE again... When not in use, the Wii makes a very nice
digital picture frame for displaying my concert photos (taken without the
use of toy cameras OR toy OSs) as well as some of the astro-porn I've col-
lected over the years. I still need to work out getting streaming radio
to play via the Wii so I can monitor Aural Moon when I'm upstairs, but I
did need to let the kid play some of the mindless games that the device
was intended for since it *IS* his toy; not mine.
BTW, my kid also received an ASUS EeePC from Santa. Apparently, he too
loathes WEENDOZE as much as I. Santa painstakingly removed the M$ virus
that was infecting the hard drive of this Netbook and installed Ubuntu on
it. He even removed the WEENDOZE inside warning stickers and covered the
WEENDOZE swastika key on the keyboard using some free stickers available
for the asking from: http://system76.com/article_info.php?articles_id=9
Apparenlty, the M$ monopolistic arm twisting didn't work on Santa's and
his elves.
My kids hate WEENDOZE as much as I. They are also, after raising quite
a commotion at a school board meeting, not permitted to be indoctrinated
by the school system into using WEENDOZE. Too much indoctrination in the
schools today.
Remember, this is comp.os.VMS; not comp.os.M$.
(Typed from Ubuntu)
JF Mezei
> Newsgroups => VMS; I don't frequent the alt.binaries.sex.pervsion-of-the-
> month-club newsgroups so I have no need whatsoever for a graphical reader.
That is because you get your fantasies/dreams from:
> I sat in the Apple store at the mall
> during the holidays as the rest of the family was shopped. (I hate shop-
> ping and the gout was acting up.) Macs, MacBooks and MacBookPros were on
> the way out the door faster than I could count them.
:-) :-) :-)
In terms of VMS Mail, it just isn't worth the trouble. However, using a
GUI mail reader does require you go through the trouble of finding the
config parameters to disable displaying of any HTML or other evil
formats (including javascript).
What I would like to see in GUI email clients is text-only by default,
and you have a button to render the message in its full format when
needed (for instancem, when you get an email from someone you know).
VAXman-
>VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>
>> Newsgroups => VMS; I don't frequent the alt.binaries.sex.pervsion-of-the-
>> month-club newsgroups so I have no need whatsoever for a graphical reader.
>
>
>> during the holidays as the rest of the family was shopped. (I hate shop-
>> ping and the gout was acting up.) Macs, MacBooks and MacBookPros were on
>> the way out the door faster than I could count them.
>
>
That was reality, not fantasy.
>In terms of VMS Mail, it just isn't worth the trouble. However, using a
>GUI mail reader does require you go through the trouble of finding the
>config parameters to disable displaying of any HTML or other evil
>formats (including javascript).
>
>What I would like to see in GUI email clients is text-only by default,
>and you have a button to render the message in its full format when
>needed (for instancem, when you get an email from someone you know).
I have PLAIN-TEXT as the default in Evolution Mail under Ubuntu Linux.
It give me the option of viewing the HTML content (if available) and
the attachments but the message is text.
Bob Koehler
> On 01-01-2010 16:12, John Vottero wrote:
>> If Windows was about "not being different", they would have stuck with
>> Java instead of inventing the .NET Framework.
>
> They had some legal problems with SUN.
There legal problems stemmed from trying not to keep to the standard,
which Sun owns. Typical MicroSoft attitude: "do what WE say".
Bob Koehler
> On 31-12-2009 14:44, JF Mezei wrote:
>> The Windows religion is about comforming with the rest of the world, it
>> is about not being different and doing the same stuff as everyone else.
>
> MS is leading not following when it comes to desktop UI, office
> package etc..
>
The Windows religion is not about doing the same stuff as everyone
else. It is about doing things the Microsoft proprietary way, even
if they have to break standards to make sure other systems can't
talk to theirs.
Bob Koehler
> W/XP was better still. There were, and still are, security fixes to be
> applied but XP has proven to be a very solid and stable release.
Which is why I only get about 12 security patches a month?
Bob Koehler
>
> Next time you buy a computer it will most likely come with 7.
No. It's much more likely to come with OS X. Linux variants would
be the second most likely. Trashing the OS and installing VMS would
be the third most likely, since it would probably be a used VMS
capable system.
Bob Koehler
>
> Windows is a pretty big OS with a lot of different features.
Windows is a big pile of crap with a lot of different security holes.
Bob Koehler
>
> What, for example, is Windows going to do with e-mail that has a
> photograph as an attachment? That's right! It will display the text and
> the photograph! What will VMS do with the same message? It *might*
> succeed in rendering the text. The photograph? Forget it!
Generally works fine when I use mozilla on VMS to read my email.
You're decades behind reality.
Bob Koehler
>
> Better the devil I know than the devil I don't! Besides, everything
> I've heard about Windows Vista has been negative. I'm sure Microsoft
> loves it but does anyone else?
Microsoft loves it? They've already dumped it for 7.
Arne Vajhøj
They made a big mistake. One thing is adding extensions to the
standard. They could have gotten away with that. But not implementing
all the standard features go them in problems. And it cost them. 20M$
if I remember correct.
Arne
Arne Vajhøj
You have never seen a Windows system and a non-Windows communicate ??
Arne
Arne Vajhøj
Given that the context was Windows then ...
Arne
Arne Vajhøj
I assume that HP loves VMS 8.2 even though they did release 8.3 ...
Arne
Richard B. Gilbert
All I can say for sure is that I've been running it for four or five
years without problems.
I know from experience how bad it *can* be. My VMS systems did what
such systems do, they sat there and worked. I had a lot of free time.
Since I had available time, I was asked to take over the job of
immunizing our 300 or so PCs against some worm whose name I forget. It
pinged every address in our address family in order to locate machines
to attack. We had W/98/2e as our standard for desktops and people using
laptops on the road. I spent months bringing those PCs up to W/2K,
service pack 4 and up to date on patches.
I may just be lucky that I'm behind a LinkSys BEFR81 router/fire wall.
It won't let anything through that is not a response to a request
from inside my network. I keep my Norton Anti-Virus up-to-date and
haven't had any malware problems for several years now.
My router reports an average of three attempts per second to open
connections from outside! A few of those might be due to fumble
fingered typing of an address but I'd bet that 99% plus are malicious!
It's a jungle out there!!!!
Richard B. Gilbert
I haven't used VMS Mail for five and a half years now and I've NEVER
used it at home! I'm running the Thunderbird mail/news client on my PC.
I also use it to read comp.os.vms and the other newsgroups that I follow.
Arne Vajhøj
> John Vottero schrieb:
And MS supply free readers for doc/xls/ppt as well.
And they have publicized their formats as well, so
other can implement them.
So the difference is ??
Arne
Arne Vajhøj
I am pretty sure that if you count over a longer period then
Windows badmouthing group would be more accurate.
Arne
Arne Vajhøj
Possible.
But the poster I replied to said that he was a Windows user.
Arne