using decw pcf fonts outside VMS

["Gérard Calliet (pia-sofer)"]

Hello,

A happy new year !

Technical issue :

I have to install some decw fonts in a non-decw server (for example
xming on Windows seven).
Some of the fonts used are VMS specific, and I thought I could instal
these fonts in Windows.

It is OK for true type fonts, and impossible for PCF fonts. I tried some
convertors from PCF to TTF and the VMS PCF fonts are never recognised.

Some idea or experience ?

Thanks.

G�rard Calliet

[Stephen Hoffman]

On 2014-01-13 23:56:16 +0000, G�rard Calliet (pia-sofer) said:


> I have to install some decw fonts in a non-decw server (for example
> xming on Windows seven).

> ...

> Some idea or experience ?

Load the font daemon on OpenVMS.
<http://labs.hoffmanlabs.com/node/134#comment-2207>


--
Pure Personal Opinion | HoffmanLabs LLC

["Gérard Calliet (pia-sofer)"]

Le 14/01/2014 04:33, Stephen Hoffman a �crit :

> On 2014-01-13 23:56:16 +0000, G�rard Calliet (pia-sofer) said:
>
>
>> I have to install some decw fonts in a non-decw server (for example
>> xming on Windows seven).
>> ...
>> Some idea or experience ?
>
> Load the font daemon on OpenVMS.
> <http://labs.hoffmanlabs.com/node/134#comment-2207>
>
>

Thank you, interesting solution.

But I still wonder why the PCF font format from VMS is not recognized
outside.

In very minimalist modernizing operations, it could be usefull to just
export the fonts used to the target x11 server, and I just cannot do that.

I thought there can be some trouble with file format, but the TTF fonts
from VMS can be integrated without trouble. What is special with the VMS
PCF format ?

[VAXman-]

I have no problem with using them on my Linux laptop. Perhaps, you should
dump WEENDOZE and install linux. ;) My kid had installed XMing on **his**
WEENDOZE laptop (I tried to bring them up right but society wronged them!)
to access his Raspberry Pi. Its (WEENDOZE and XMing) response is sluggish
and problematic (drops connection) compared to Xnest. Xnest :1 -query Pi

--
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

Well I speak to machines with the voice of humanity.

[Stephen Hoffman]

On 2014-01-14 08:00:31 +0000, G�rard Calliet (pia-sofer) said:

> Le 14/01/2014 04:33, Stephen Hoffman a �crit :
>>

>> Load the font daemon on OpenVMS.
>> <http://labs.hoffmanlabs.com/node/134#comment-2207>
>>
> Thank you, interesting solution.
>
> But I still wonder why the PCF font format from VMS is not recognized outside.
>
> In very minimalist modernizing operations, it could be usefull to just
> export the fonts used to the target x11 server, and I just cannot do
> that.
>
> I thought there can be some trouble with file format, but the TTF fonts
> from VMS can be integrated without trouble. What is special with the
> VMS PCF format ?

The copyrights associated with closed-source products and proprietary
fonts generally preclude copying them around.

The font daemon does what you want and need, is the standard X11
approach for systems of this era, operates in a portable fashion, and
generally avoids running afoul of font-related copyrights.

As for the technical answer you seek, that involves doing some basic
reverse-engineering <http://labs.hoffmanlabs.com/node/940> (where that
sort of reverse engineering is permitted) on the PCF font file format;
both looking for any RMS-level differences (many of the OpenVMS
sequential file formats are not platform-transportable) and some
record-level digging. ANALYZE /RMS on OpenVMS
<http://labs.hoffmanlabs.com/node/302> and xxd
<http://labs.hoffmanlabs.com/node/1648> on working and non-working
examples (of the same font file format) would be typical. But porting
<http://labs.hoffmanlabs.com/node/225> is more involved. That TTF is
portable is interesting, but not particularly relevant to a different
font format. You'll also want to test that some other PCF files work
on the target platform, too; that's an obvious test on the target
system, and you need working PCF files on the target platform for the
low-level comparison.

Also confirm the files weren't corrupted by ftp or sftp. Copy the
files to the target, copy them back, and diff the results. Those sorts
of transfer-tool corruptions have happened before; some of the folks
that have posted here have gotten burned by sftp problems, and somebody
was recently having problems getting scp to work.

While digging into this and based on a quick look of two entirely
separate OpenVMS I64 V8.4 systems, I'm seeing the same low-level errors
in some of the font fines (which is never a good sign), and some
differences in the formats; some are Stream LF carriage return, and
some are fixed 512. Here's one of the fonts that appears corrupt:

$ ANALYZE/RMS SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSCOMMON.SYSFONT.DECW.EURO_75DPI]COURIER10.PCF

In any case, start digging at the PCF formats with the available tools,
and find the difference(s). Or use the font daemon, and avoid this
whole morass.

Modernizing an X11 application is certainly an interesting project; the
VMS X11 libraries are ancient, and more than a few of the VMS X11 apps
I've encountered have the non-portable DECwindows calls twisted all
through the code; they're less than portable, and replacing the GUI (if
or when that becomes necessary) is a large project.

["Gérard Calliet (pia-sofer)"]

Le 14/01/2014 13:08, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG a �crit :

> Perhaps, you should
> dump WEENDOZE

Perhaps I can give you the address of my customer ? :=(

["Gérard Calliet (pia-sofer)"]

Le 14/01/2014 14:42, Stephen Hoffman a �crit :

Thank you for this detailed answer. I'll investigate all that.

And I'll have to "sell" my choices : I'm in a very rigid environment,
and every choice has to be negociated.

And, yes, between IT and archeology, X11 modernization is fine :=)

[Stephen Hoffman]

On 2014-01-14 14:31:23 +0000, G�rard Calliet (pia-sofer) said:
>>
> Thank you for this detailed answer. I'll investigate all that.
>
> And I'll have to "sell" my choices : I'm in a very rigid environment,
> and every choice has to be negociated.

I'd expect your solution potentially exposes your customer to HP legal
for copyright violations, and quite possibly yourself.

Might want to clear that with your customer's management.

Best to have them check with HP before copying the files around

Or use the font manager / font daemon.

[JF Mezei]

On 14-01-14 07:08, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:

> dump WEENDOZE and install linux. ;) My kid had installed XMing on **his**
> WEENDOZE laptop (I tried to bring them up right but society wronged them!)

Shock ! Horror ! Breeaking news !

If I were you, I might demand some paternity tests. I suspect the door
to door Microsoft saleman. It is unthinkable that you could have so
miserably failed in your son's upbringing that he ended up using Weendoze !



With regards to .PCF, those are pre-compiled-fonts. Distant memory here,
but I seem to recall that they are not even portable between vax and
alpha VMS. (someone can confirm or deny this).

[JF Mezei]

On 14-01-14 09:50, Stephen Hoffman wrote:

> Or use the font manager / font daemon.

One problem I had with this is that if your VMS nodes are not up 7/24,
then your workstation will fail to "link up" to the unavailable font
deamon because when your start the workstation, the VMS box is not
running, and when you do need access to those fonts, you will need to
manually use the command "xset fp+ "tcp/chain.chocolate.ca:7100" to make
its fonts available to your workstation.

If your VMS boxes are up 7/24 then this isn't really a problem.

[VAXman-]

In article <52d5509c$0$44295$c3e8da3$3863...@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei...@vaxination.ca> writes:
>On 14-01-14 07:08, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>
>> dump WEENDOZE and install linux. ;) My kid had installed XMing on **his**
>> WEENDOZE laptop (I tried to bring them up right but society wronged them!)
>
>
>Shock ! Horror ! Breeaking news !
>
>If I were you, I might demand some paternity tests. I suspect the door
>to door Microsoft saleman. It is unthinkable that you could have so
>miserably failed in your son's upbringing that he ended up using Weendoze !

He's learning the hard way! A couple of years ago, Santa deposited an ASUS
EeePC H1005 for him under the Saturnalia Spruce. Of course, Santa, being a
devout anti-WEENDOZE distributor, was wise to install Linux on that Netbook
before it was wrapped and tagged. Jr. used it for several weeks before he,
somehow, broke the display. Santa, so sage he was, purchased the protection
plan from the local Best Buy. The Netbook was taken there for repair. When
it was returned, the Best Buy repair depot had reinstalled WEENDOZE upon it.
As punishment, I made him use WEENDOZE! It didn't take him long to find his
way to reinstalling Linux. Earlier this year, he purchased -- with his own
money as I will NEVER invest a single cent on WEENDOZE or anything M$ -- an
HP laptop with WEENDOZE ingr-8 so that he could on-line game with a friend.
He just spent the weekend reinstalling WEENDOZE ingr-8 after his laptop had
acquired a virus.

>With regards to .PCF, those are pre-compiled-fonts. Distant memory here,
>but I seem to recall that they are not even portable between vax and
>alpha VMS. (someone can confirm or deny this).

I will have to boot up my VAXstation 4000m96 and diff the .PCF files against
those on an Alpha or Integrity to check this. I'm rather busy at the moment
but I will check.

[Paul Sture]

And that suggest potential nightmare scenario:

Q: "Why aren't the fonts for these reports working?"
A: "Remember that box you switched off n months ago?"

Even more so if the box requesting the fonts caches them locally for
some period or until restarted itself.

--
Finger memory in action:

ssh keygen -t rsa
ssh: Could not resolve hostname keygen: Name or service not known

[Stephen Hoffman]

On 2014-01-14 16:07:29 +0000, Paul Sture said:

> Q: "Why aren't the fonts for these reports working?"
> A: "Remember that box you switched off n months ago?"
>
> Even more so if the box requesting the fonts caches them locally for
> some period or until restarted itself.

Host the font daemon / font manager on the same OpenVMS box that is
hosting the OpenVMS X11 DECwindows application.

[Bill Gunshannon]

In article <lb3p71$ik7$1...@dont-email.me>,

Stephen Hoffman <seao...@hoffmanlabs.invalid> writes:
> On 2014-01-14 16:07:29 +0000, Paul Sture said:
>
>> Q: "Why aren't the fonts for these reports working?"
>> A: "Remember that box you switched off n months ago?"
>>
>> Even more so if the box requesting the fonts caches them locally for
>> some period or until restarted itself.
>
> Host the font daemon / font manager on the same OpenVMS box that is
> hosting the OpenVMS X11 DECwindows application.

You must have been thinking the same thing I was. If the VMS box is down,
who is supposed to be needing the VMS fonts?

bill

--
Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
bill...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton |
Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>

[JF Mezei]

On 14-01-14 12:13, Bill Gunshannon wrote:

> You must have been thinking the same thing I was. If the VMS box is down,
> who is supposed to be needing the VMS fonts?

It all depends on when the xset command on your workstation is executed
to add the path to the VMS box for fonts.

If, at the time it is executed (for instance, when your workstation
boots), the VMS box is unavailable, it will fail, and you will need to
manually execute it once you know the VMS box is up.

It is far more reliable to copy the fonts locally.

I realise there are copyright issues, but copying a default font to a
workstation in the same company to be used only by applications that run
on that VMS box is not the same level of "copying" as
distributing/selling the font to anyone and everyone on the internet.

[David Froble]

I'm with JF here. If the files are being used in a VMS application,
does it really matter where they are stored? It's usage, not storage,
that could be an issue.

Nor do I feel that HP is out chasing copyright bandits for anything
associated with VMS. They aren't doing anything else with the OS, why
would they even think of copyright issues.

[Stephen Hoffman]

On 2014-01-15 01:52:35 +0000, David Froble said:

> If the files are being used in a VMS application, does it really matter
> where they are stored? It's usage, not storage, that could be an issue.

Some font copyright holders can tend to get cranky, FWIW. Others might
not care.

> Nor do I feel that HP is out chasing copyright bandits for anything
> associated with VMS. They aren't doing anything else with the OS, why
> would they even think of copyright issues.

Probably true, but it's better to ask permission for these cases. Both
of the local customer management — they're the ones that'll end up
holding the bag here, unless they pin any ensuing mess on somebody else
— and then of the folks at HP. Will HP care? Donno. But if they say
"sure, have at...", you're golden. If management decides to just haul
over the fonts without chatting with HP, that's their call. In either
case, you're far less likely to end up on the wrong end of a bad deal.

This permission particularly given starting the DECwindows font daemon
/ font manager is trivial, supported, works, and avoids the whole mess.
The font daemon also means you're not hauling around more pieces over
time; with the font daemon and the application on one box, you don't
have to remember what was going on and how to configure and
troubleshoot the local bits on each client beyond the startup script or
XDM-ish hackery; the clients all refer to VMS both for the application
and for the fonts. Nothing else to deal with for the upgrades or
system swaps or reinstalls.

One other alternative that hasn't been discussed is whether the VMS X11
application will accept different fonts; if setting up the X font
fallback works here.

[VAXman-]

In article <lb4pfg$mfi$1...@dont-email.me>, David Froble <da...@tsoft-inc.com> writes:

>I'm with JF here. If the files are being used in a VMS application,

>does it really matter where they are stored? It's usage, not storage,
>that could be an issue.
>

>Nor do I feel that HP is out chasing copyright bandits for anything
>associated with VMS. They aren't doing anything else with the OS, why
>would they even think of copyright issues.

FWIW, neither did d|i|g|i|t|a|l or Compaq; especially, WRT one egregious
copyright violator. C'est la vie.