The Minimum You Need to Know to Be an OpenVMS Application Developer
David Turner, Island Computers US Corp
ISBN 0-9770866-0-7
Available at http://www.islandco.com/theminimum.html
For years now the question has been surfacing in the OpenVMS community
"Where are the
pimply faced kids?" The other situation which seems to continually occur is
a developer of one
language suddenly finding themselves having to modify or maintain an
application written in a
language completely foreign to them.
This book was a year long effort to answer both of those questions. It
also should help those
developers from lesser platforms get up to speed when they now have to work
on a good
platform. Once the rudimentaries of logging in, symbols, logicals and the
various editors are
handled this book takes the reader on a journey of development using the
most common tools
encountered on the OpenVMS platform and one new tool making headway.
A single sample application (a lottery tracking system) is developed
using FMS and RMS
indexed files in each of the covered languages. (BASIC, FORTRAN, COBOL and
C/C++). The
reader is exposed on how to use CDD, CMS and MMS with these languages as
well. A CD-
ROM is included which contains the source, MMS and command files developed
through the
course of the book.
Once RMS has been covered with all of the languages the same application
using MySQL
with C and FMS is covered. This breaks readers into the use of relational
databases if they are
not currently familiar with the concept.
Rounding out the technical portion of the book is the same application
using RDB with FMS.
While source code is provided for all of the language implementations only
FORTRAN and
COBOL are actually covered in the text.
It is the hope of the author that this book will prove a useful
reference on the desk of every
OpenVMS developer. The inclusion of MySQL should benefit both those
unfamiliar with
relational technology and those platform veterans interested in playing with
MySQL for the first
time.
For those who judge a book by its table of contents:
Introduction . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .I-1
I.1 Purpose of This Book. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .I-1
I.2 What You Need to Know to Read This Book . . . . . . .I-1
I.3 Who Should Read This Book . . . . . . . . . . . . . .I-1
I.4 How to Read This Book . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .I-2
I.5 Our Sample Application. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .I-2
I.6 Why OpenVMS?. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .I-4
I.7 The Definition of Application . . . . . . . . . . . .I-5
Chapter 1
Fundamentals of OpenVMS. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1-1
1.1 Hardware. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1-1
1.2 Logging In. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1-3
1.3 Symbols . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1-5
1.4 Editor Choices. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1-9
1.5 EDT Exercises . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1-14
1.6 TPU and EVE Configuration. . . . . . . . . . . . . 1-18
1.7 LSE . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1-20
1.8 Logicals. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1-21
1.9 ACLs and the UAF. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1-28
1.10 Logical Name Tables. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1-38
1.11 Foreign Commands . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1-40
1.12 Exercises. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1-41
Chapter 2
DCL and Utilities We Need. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .2-1
2.1 DCL for Application Development . . . . . . . . . . .2-1
2.2 FDL and Our Indexed Files . . . . . . . . . . . . . .2-1
2.3 Indexed File Lore . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .2-5
2.4 Lexical Functions . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2-12
2.5 The Import Program. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2-14
2.6 Exercises . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2-20
Chapter 3
DEC BASIC. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .3-1
3.1 Goals . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .3-1
3.2 Language Data Types . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .3-1
3.3 Magic Numbers . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .3-3
3.4 Group vs. Record. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .3-6
3.5 Creating Our Statistics Files . . . . . . . . . . . .3-7
3.6 Data File Reporting . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3-21
3.7 Other BASIC Language Features . . . . . . . . . . . 3-28
3.8 BASIC Features to Never Use . . . . . . . . . . . . 3-33
3.9 The Zero Element. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3-34
3.10 Where Do We Go From Here?. . . . . . . . . . . . . 3-35
3.11 Exercises. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3-35
Chapter 4
FMS. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .4-1
4.1 What is FMS?. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .4-1
4.2 Creating a Data Entry Screen in FMS . . . . . . . . .4-2
4.3 FMS Object vs. Library. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .4-5
4.4 Stand Alone Data Entry. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .4-6
4.5 An FMS Browse Program . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4-20
4.6 An FMS Menu. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4-27
4.7 FMS Functions to Never Use. . . . . . . . . . . . . 4-38
4.8 FMS Summary . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4-38
4.9 FMS Function and Subroutine Summary . . . . . . . . 4-39
4.10 Exercises. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4-53
Chapter 5
CMS Theory and Practice. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .5-1
5.1 Code Management System. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .5-1
5.2 Logical Environment for CMS Based Development . . . .5-1
5.3 Creating Our CMS Library. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .5-9
5.4 Putting Our Application in the Library. . . . . . . 5-10
5.5 Deleting an Element From the Library. . . . . . . . 5-11
5.6 Classes and Deletions . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5-12
5.7 Modifying Elements Once They Are in CMS . . . . . . 5-12
5.8 Productionizing the Application . . . . . . . . . . 5-13
5.9 Legacy Build Procedure. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5-16
5.10 Additional CMS Commands. . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5-18
5.11 Promotion Between Libraries. . . . . . . . . . . . 5-20
5.12 Exercises. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5-29
Chapter 6
CDD. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .6-1
6.1 What is CDD?. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .6-1
6.2 Some Definitions You Need to Know . . . . . . . . . .6-2
6.3 The Different Camps of CDD Configuration. . . . . . .6-3
6.4 Creating a Repository . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .6-5
6.5 Defining Our Logicals and Directories . . . . . . . .6-6
6.6 Creating Our Fields and Records . . . . . . . . . . .6-8
6.7 Converting Our Include File . . . . . . . . . . . . 6-12
6.8 Using Variants and Dates. . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6-14
6.9 Nuking the CDD. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6-20
6.10 Full Build Modification. . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6-22
6.11 CDD Usage Summary. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6-24
6.12 Mass Changes Due to CDD. . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6-24
6.13 Exercises. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6-29
Chapter 7
Object and Text Libraries. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .7-1
7.1 What We Know About Libraries So Far . . . . . . . . .7-1
7.2 Application Logicals We Need. . . . . . . . . . . . .7-2
7.3 Creating Our Text Library . . . . . . . . . . . . . .7-2
7.4 Converting Our Application to a Single EXE. . . . . .7-3
7.5 Programming Assignment. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7-23
7.6 Exercises . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7-24
Chapter 8
MMS. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .8-1
8.1 The Purpose of MMS. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .8-1
8.2 The Correct Way to Use MMS. . . . . . . . . . . . . .8-1
8.3 Putting It All Together . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .8-8
8.4 Exercises . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8-12
Chapter 9
Message Utility, Mail and Phone. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .9-1
9.1 Message File Definition . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .9-1
9.2 VMSMAIL Overview. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .9-2
9.3 Sending Mail From Inside Server Applications. . . . .9-5
9.4 Programming Assignment. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9-10
9.5 VMSPhone Overview . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9-10
9.6 Creating Your Own Messages. . . . . . . . . . . . . 9-12
9.7 Testing Your Messages . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9-14
9.8 Programming Assignment 2. . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9-21
9.9 Exercises . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9-21
Chapter 10
FORTRAN. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10-1
10.1 Yes, It's Still Out There. . . . . . . . . . . . . 10-1
10.2 Basics of Fortran. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10-2
10.3 Our Sample Application . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10-7
10.4 Programming Assignment 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . .10-53
10.5 Using Message Files. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .10-53
10.6 Our Quadword Example . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .10-54
10.7 Sending Mail . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .10-56
10.8 Programming Assignment 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . .10-60
10.9 Exercises. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .10-60
Chapter 11
COBOL. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 11-1
11.1 Overview . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 11-1
11.2 Interview Questions That Are Red Flags . . . . . . 11-2
11.3 The Myth of the COBOL SORT Verb. . . . . . . . . . 11-4
11.4 The DCL SORT Command . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 11-4
11.5 Our Sample Application . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 11-6
11.6 Programming Assignment . . . . . . . . . . . . . .11-58
11.7 The Rest of the Language . . . . . . . . . . . . .11-59
11.8 Our Quadword Example . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .11-61
11.9 Sending Mail . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .11-62
11.10 Programming Assignment 2. . . . . . . . . . . . .11-67
11.11 Exercises . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .11-68
Chapter 12
C/C++. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 12-1
12.1 Overview . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 12-1
12.2 Some Differences on OpenVMS. . . . . . . . . . . . 12-6
12.3 Our Sample Application in C. . . . . . . . . . . . 12-9
12.4 C++ Philosophy and Terminology . . . . . . . . . .12-69
12.5 Our Sample Application in C++. . . . . . . . . . .12-71
12.6 C/C++ Follow Up. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 12-139
12.7 Debugging Notes for C/C++. . . . . . . . . . . . 12-146
12.8 Sending Mail . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 12-147
12.9 D_FLOAT Example. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 12-152
12.10 Programming Assignments . . . . . . . . . . . . 12-156
12.11 Exercises . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 12-156
Chapter 13
MySQL. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 13-1
13.1 Why MySQL? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 13-1
13.2 Getting and Installing MySQL . . . . . . . . . . . 13-4
13.3 Our Application Database . . . . . . . . . . . . . 13-9
13.4 Creating the Tables. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .13-10
13.5 Compiling and Linking With MySQL . . . . . . . . .13-13
13.6 Our Sample Application . . . . . . . . . . . . . .13-17
13.7 MySQL Follow-up. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .13-65
13.8 Programming Assignments. . . . . . . . . . . . . .13-67
13.9 Exercises. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .13-69
Chapter 14
RDB. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 14-1
14.1 Why RDB? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 14-1
14.2 What's in the Book and What's on Disk. . . . . . . 14-4
14.3 Table and Database Definitions . . . . . . . . . . 14-5
14.4 The Drawbacks. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .14-14
14.5 Our SQLMOD Implementation. . . . . . . . . . . . .14-15
14.6 Programming Assignment 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . .14-29
14.7 SQLMOD Follow Up . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .14-37
14.8 EXEC SQL Implementation. . . . . . . . . . . . . .14-38
14.9 RDB Follow Up. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .14-54
14.10 Programming Assignment 2. . . . . . . . . . . . .14-55
14.11 Exercises . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .14-55
Chapter 15
Ruminations and Observations . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 15-1
15.1 Overview . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 15-1
15.2 What Do You Do?. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 15-1
15.3 Keep Your Eye on the Sparrow . . . . . . . . . . . 15-5
15.4 Have You Ever Wondered Why Y2K Happened? . . . . . 15-6
15.5 Optimal Technology . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 15-9
15.6 The Self-Defeating Business Model. . . . . . . . .15-11
15.7 Offshore Computing - The Death Knell of IT in the U.S. 15-14
15.8 Avoiding a Hell-Hole . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .15-17
--
David B Turner
Island Computers US Corp
2700 Gregory St, Suite 180
Savannah GA 31404
Tel: 912 447 6622 X201
Cell: 912 447 6622 X252
Fax: 912 201 0402
Email: dbtu...@icusc.com
Web: http://www.islandco.com
=====================================
All orders are subject to the following terms and conditions
of sale. These should be read before ordering.
http://www.islandco.com/warranty.html
Måns Rullgård
[snip spam]
Please stop this spamming. I used to point people looking for Alpha
hardware in your direction. I will never do it again. I can
understand that basing a business on selling Alpha parts is getting
increasingly difficult, but this does not give any right whatsoever to
post spam to Usenet. One more of these and I'll report you for abuse.
--
Måns Rullgård
m...@inprovide.com
Dave Froble
> The Minimum You Need to Know to Be an OpenVMS Application Developer"
> ISBN 0-9770866-0-7
Thanks for the heads-up on this book. It seems that it covers enough
that even long time VMS users still have a bit to learn. You didn't
mention a price?
--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. Fax: 724-529-0596
DFE Ultralights, Inc. E-Mail: da...@tsoft-inc.com
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486
John Reagan
> ISBN 0-9770866-0-7
>
> A single sample application (a lottery tracking system) is developed
> using FMS and RMS
> indexed files in each of the covered languages. (BASIC, FORTRAN, COBOL and
> C/C++). The
Feh! No Pascal or Macro-32 examples!
--
John Reagan
HP Pascal/{A|I}MACRO for OpenVMS Project Leader
Hewlett-Packard Company
hea...@aracnet.com
> [snip spam]
Good grief. Calm down, about the only thing David posts for sale these days
are things that are of interest to Hobbyists. In this case he is posting
something that is of interest to more than just hobbyists, and I for one am
glad he did. This book sounds like it is just the sort of thing that I
could really use. Hopefully someone will post a review of it soon.
Zane
Bill Gunshannon
John Reagan <john....@hp.com> writes:
> David Turner, Island Computers US Corp wrote:
>> The Minimum You Need to Know to Be an OpenVMS Application Developer"
>> ISBN 0-9770866-0-7
>>
>
>> A single sample application (a lottery tracking system) is developed
>> using FMS and RMS
>> indexed files in each of the covered languages. (BASIC, FORTRAN, COBOL and
>> C/C++). The
>
> Feh! No Pascal or Macro-32 examples!
And no PL/I. Someone is going to be real upset. :-)
bill
--
Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
bi...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton |
Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
Bill Gunshannon
Ok, so why is:
The Minimum You Need to Know to Be an OpenVMS Application Developer"
ISBN 0-9770866-0-7
SPAM and:
We are pleased to announce the availability of the HP OpenVMS Common
Internet File System (CIFS) IA64 "evaluation" kit.
isn't?
VAXman-
>> The Minimum You Need to Know to Be an OpenVMS Application Developer"
>> ISBN 0-9770866-0-7
>>
>
>> A single sample application (a lottery tracking system) is developed
>> using FMS and RMS
>> indexed files in each of the covered languages. (BASIC, FORTRAN, COBOL and
>> C/C++). The
>
>Feh! No Pascal or Macro-32 examples!
Then what good is this text?
--
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM
"Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"
Måns Rullgård
Makes no difference if it's useful to someone. It's advertising, and
advertising doesn't belong here. It belongs in the *.marketplace
groups.
--
Måns Rullgård
m...@inprovide.com
grei...@netscape.net
> Valuable or not, it *is* spam. This newsgroup is not intended for
> advertising things. There are other groups dedicated to that.
"This newsgroup" - if you must change the follow-ups in a cross-posted
message then please say so in the message body. I read it in
comp.os.vms.
--
Alan Greig
Ian Miller
David Turner, Island Computers US Corp wrote:
> The Minimum You Need to Know to Be an OpenVMS Application Developer"
> ISBN 0-9770866-0-7
>
> Available at http://www.islandco.com/theminimum.html
I see that the price is US $90 + shipping - not unreasonable for nearly
800 pages and CD-ROM.
>From traffic on various forums it appears that there are some new
people out there faced with applications on VMS systems and wondering
what to do.
Its been a long time since anything new was written about VMS Software
Development.
I think this book will be useful to the new people that are now
appearing in the VMS world and are being faced with the wonderful VMS
environment and don't know where to start. The publication of the book
also sends a message that VMS Software development is not dead.
>From the contents page this book appears to cover software development
using 'classic' DECset tools not the java/NetBeans etc but it does
appear to mention a newer database (MySQL) as well as RDB. I belive the
author intends to write another book covering java.
Certainly an interesting venture and I hope it sells.
Måns Rullgård
None of the crossposted groups is meant for advertising. I read it in
comp.os.linux.alpha, where it is not even topical.
--
Måns Rullgård
m...@inprovide.com
dav...@montagar.com
OpenVMS Programmer. Thanks for the effort in putting this bok together.
Jim Agnew
jim
Schnootling
I'm interested if the price is right.
Chuck Moore
Dave Froble
> David Turner, Island Computers US Corp wrote:
>
>> The Minimum You Need to Know to Be an OpenVMS Application Developer"
>> ISBN 0-9770866-0-7
>>
>
>> A single sample application (a lottery tracking system) is developed
>> using FMS and RMS
>> indexed files in each of the covered languages. (BASIC, FORTRAN,
>> COBOL and
>> C/C++). The
>
>
> Feh! No Pascal or Macro-32 examples!
>
Well, John, you've been wondering what to do with all your free time. :-)
Are we back to "Real programmers write in assembler", to which those
even older reply "Real programmers hardwire their instructions".
Dave Froble
> In article <nKCUf.5202$Ng4....@news.cpqcorp.net>,
> John Reagan <john....@hp.com> writes:
>
>>David Turner, Island Computers US Corp wrote:
>>
>>>The Minimum You Need to Know to Be an OpenVMS Application Developer"
>>>ISBN 0-9770866-0-7
>>>
>>
>>> A single sample application (a lottery tracking system) is developed
>>>using FMS and RMS
>>>indexed files in each of the covered languages. (BASIC, FORTRAN, COBOL and
>>>C/C++). The
>>
>>Feh! No Pascal or Macro-32 examples!
>
>
> And no PL/I. Someone is going to be real upset. :-)
>
> bill
>
>
I haven't seen a post from Tom yet. Wonder how long it'll take for him
to stop tearing phone books in half and calm down? :-)
Alan Greig
Måns Rullgård wrote:
> None of the crossposted groups is meant for advertising. I read it in
> comp.os.linux.alpha, where it is not even topical.
But if you have linux on an Alpha then your box is quite likely capable
of running VMS (although some were crippled). And you can play with it
for free with a hobby license from HP.
If you know VMS and don't like it then that's fine. If you'd like to
play with it at home and find out what it's all about then pop over to
comp.os.vms.
David Turner at Island is probably single handedly responsible for
putting more cheap Alpha boxes in the hands of home users than any other
vendor. He's got a bunch of DS10ls going for $89 dollars at the moment.
--
Alan Greig
Måns Rullgård
I'm not complaining about him selling Alphas. I'm complaining about
him posting *spam*. If I want to buy things I know how to find them.
What do you think would happen if everybody that had something for
sale repeatedly posted advertisements to every remotely related
newsgroup?
--
Måns Rullgård
m...@inprovide.com
Steven M. Schweda
> I'm not complaining about him selling Alphas. I'm complaining about
> him posting *spam*. If I want to buy things I know how to find them.
Where I come from, we like to flatter ourselves that we know
something about real SPAM, and as the MPFC series has appeared
repeatedly on TV here, we generally consider spam (or "*spam*") to
involve some considerable repetition.
> What do you think would happen if everybody that had something for
> sale repeatedly posted advertisements to every remotely related
> newsgroup?
Could it be any worse than this barrage of juvenile, whiney
complaints about a single posting?
Get a life or not, but please try not to clutter the world with such
a waste of bits. I prefer the disease. Please spare me the cure.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven M. Schweda (+1) 651-699-9818
382 South Warwick Street sms@antinode-org
Saint Paul MN 55105-2547
toby
> >From the description, this looks like an excellent book for a new
> OpenVMS Programmer. Thanks for the effort in putting this bok together.
It does look interesting. As a hobbyist I wish I could justify the $90
- but coincidentally my day job is currently building MySQL
applications on other operating systems. It's fascinating that MySQL
has made it to VMS and is considered a useful component there (too) -
whether one approves of MySQL or not ;-)
As for the 'spam' objection - I'm in two minds on that - strictly
speaking this is an advertisement, and in some contexts clearly
inappropriate; but I think given the very specific relevance to the
audience of this group and the proactive, helpful nature of the product
- I don't see why it cannot be tolerated.
Howard S Shubs
Måns Rullgård <m...@inprovide.com> wrote:
> Makes no difference if it's useful to someone. It's advertising, and
> advertising doesn't belong here. It belongs in the *.marketplace
> groups.
I'm sorry you feel that way. I feel that the posting was appropriate to
at least some of the cross-posted groups. I have my own answer to the
title and the initial question, though.
--
We are the music makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams,
Wandering by lone sea-breakers, And sitting by desolate streams.
from "Ode", Arthur O'Shaughnessy
Crabs
> "David Turner, Island Computers US Corp" <dbtu...@icusc.com> writes:
>
> [snip spam]
>
> Please stop this spa
Mans, old chap.
Get a grip.
I don't see you complaining on the Linux groups when somebody announces
a new build or an update.
David is a friend for gosh sakes.
He's one of the few Honest DEC/Compaq/HP after market suppliers out there.
TomC
David's friend and Proud of it!
Christopher Browne
> dav...@montagar.com wrote:
>> >From the description, this looks like an excellent book for a new
>> OpenVMS Programmer. Thanks for the effort in putting this bok together.
>
> It does look interesting. As a hobbyist I wish I could justify the $90
> - but coincidentally my day job is currently building MySQL
> applications on other operating systems. It's fascinating that MySQL
> has made it to VMS and is considered a useful component there (too) -
> whether one approves of MySQL or not ;-)
I have a hard time fathoming how MySQL would be of interest on a
platform that has a full-fledged ISAM system, RMS, *built into the
operating system*, but I suppose there are all types out there...
--
output = ("cbbrowne" "@" "ntlug.org")
http://linuxdatabases.info/info/rdbms.html
"I heard that if you play the Windows CD backward, you get a satanic
message. But that's nothing compared to when you play it forward: It
installs Windows...." -- G. R. Gaudreau
Tom Linden
> David Turner, Island Computers US Corp wrote:
>> The Minimum You Need to Know to Be an OpenVMS Application Developer"
>> ISBN 0-9770866-0-7
>>
>
>> A single sample application (a lottery tracking system) is developed
>> using FMS and RMS
>> indexed files in each of the covered languages. (BASIC, FORTRAN, COBOL
>> and
>> C/C++). The
>
> Feh! No Pascal or Macro-32 examples!
Also no PL/I examples, can't be a very serious book.
>
Arne Vajhøj
> I have a hard time fathoming how MySQL would be of interest on a
> platform that has a full-fledged ISAM system, RMS, *built into the
> operating system*, but I suppose there are all types out there...
????
Query language, fast remote access, security system etc..
There are reasons RDB and Oracle (classic) has been used
on VMS for many years.
Now there are an open source database alternative.
Arne
Tom Linden
wrote:
> Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>> In article <nKCUf.5202$Ng4....@news.cpqcorp.net>,
>> John Reagan <john....@hp.com> writes:
>>
>>> David Turner, Island Computers US Corp wrote:
>>>
>>>> The Minimum You Need to Know to Be an OpenVMS Application Developer"
>>>> ISBN 0-9770866-0-7
>>>>
>>>
>>>> A single sample application (a lottery tracking system) is
>>>> developed
>>>> using FMS and RMS
>>>> indexed files in each of the covered languages. (BASIC, FORTRAN,
>>>> COBOL and
>>>> C/C++). The
>>>
>>> Feh! No Pascal or Macro-32 examples!
>> And no PL/I. Someone is going to be real upset. :-)
>> bill
>>
>
> I haven't seen a post from Tom yet. Wonder how long it'll take for him
> to stop tearing phone books in half and calm down? :-)
Didn't need the phone books anyway.
>
Tom Linden
wrote:
> I for one am happy to see this book. I'll even write a chapter on Perl
> for the guy...
>
> jim
OK, I'll do the one on PL/I but there should also be a chapter on SDL and
STARLET
David J. Dachtera
Is it the cross-posting that's got your undies in a bunch?
I'll have to vote with Zane on this one. Get a grip, chill out. We need
c.o.v. to be a "one stop shopping" source for all things VMS, and that
includes books, hardware, software, advice, etc. For some folks - not
just hobbyists - this and openvms.org are their only source of support.
How many c.o.v.'ers have ever even HEARD of the *.marketplace groups?
...and since Islandco *IS* the *ONLY* one we soliciting here (on c.o.v.
at least for VMS related stuff, can't say about c.o.l.a. as I only lurk
there on occasion), I don't see that there's an issue.
I suppose next we'll see complaints about Sue posting new product
announcements from HP...
--
David J. Dachtera
dba DJE Systems
http://www.djesys.com/
Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page:
http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/
David J. Dachtera
Måns Rullgård wrote:
>
> Alan Greig <grei...@netscape.net> writes:
>
> > Måns Rullgård wrote:
> >
> >> None of the crossposted groups is meant for advertising. I read it in
> >> comp.os.linux.alpha, where it is not even topical.
> >
> > But if you have linux on an Alpha then your box is quite likely
> > capable of running VMS (although some were crippled). And you can play
> > with it for free with a hobby license from HP.
> >
> > If you know VMS and don't like it then that's fine. If you'd like to
> > play with it at home and find out what it's all about then pop over to
> > comp.os.vms.
> >
> > David Turner at Island is probably single handedly responsible for
> > putting more cheap Alpha boxes in the hands of home users than any
> > other vendor. He's got a bunch of DS10ls going for $89 dollars at the
> > moment.
>
> I'm not complaining about him selling Alphas. I'm complaining about
> him posting *spam*. If I want to buy things I know how to find them.
Others might now know where to find them. Give 'em break, huh?
> What do you think would happen if everybody that had something for
> sale repeatedly posted advertisements to every remotely related
> newsgroup?
It happens now.
Dave Froble
Then what was it, a brick through the monitor? :-)
Stanley F. Quayle
> I'm not complaining about him selling Alphas. I'm complaining about
> him posting *spam*. If I want to buy things I know how to find them.
So, if I mentioned CHARON-VAX, would that be spam, too?
[Sorry, just couldn't resist...]
Stanley F. Quayle
--Stan Quayle
Quayle Consulting Inc.
----------
Stanley F. Quayle, P.E. N8SQ Toll free: 1-888-I-LUV-VAX
8572 North Spring Ct., Pickerington, OH 43147 USA
stan-at-stanq-dot-com http://www.stanq.com/charon-vax.html
"OpenVMS, when downtime is not an option"
JF Mezei
> So, if I mentioned CHARON-VAX, would that be spam, too?
Yes, especially if you mention that it allows your cluster member to
grow by 3 inches, enables hard disks to last longer, or that you are
the administrator of a large fortune and you would like to transfer it
to me in exchange for me sending you a large sum of money.
I think the complaints about the original post were probably raised
because that post had gone to newsgroups outside of comp.os.vms and to
those people, the post was not appropriate for their newsgroup.
In terms of Tom Linden, he probably allowed enough steam to come out of
his ears to contribute to global warming :-)
Dave Froble
Well, as Steven said, it's repetition. How many times have you
mentioned it? :-)
Dr. Dweeb
MySql out of the box is not that good actually (at least last time I
looked). It needs addons to du proper stuff and is in many ways
releatively primitive.
Its redeeming feature is price.
As for the SPAM, well, SPAM is as I understand it "untargeted", and
there can be little doubt that this was targeted. I did not read it in
comp.alt.sex.binaries.weenie
:)
Dweeb
Neil Rieck
"Måns Rullgård" <m...@inprovide.com> wrote in message
news:yw1x7j6l...@agrajag.inprovide.com...
[...snip...]
> Please stop this spamming. I used to point people looking for Alpha
> hardware in your direction. I will never do it again. I can
> understand that basing a business on selling Alpha parts is getting
> increasingly difficult, but this does not give any right whatsoever to
> post spam to Usenet. One more of these and I'll report you for abuse.
>
> Måns Rullgård
> m...@inprovide.com
>
1. Most people would not know about this Book/CD if the vendor wouldn't have
posted to comp.os.vms so I don't see this as SPAM.
2. I have no problem that the post in question went to: comp.os.vms,
comp.sys.dec, de.comp.os.vms, fr.comp.os.vms but maybe posting to
comp.os.linux.alpha was a little overzealous
3. OpenVMS is not the most popular OS in the world and any promotion by
anyone is welcome.
4. A very rational engineer at HP once told me some folks in OpenVMS
engineering are convinced that the first 4 letters of "comp.os.vms" stand
for COMPLAIN. Attempts to help out usually result in some kind of attack.
(I heard this a couple of years back but now feel the need to pass it on to
the newsgroup because there are a few bad apples who would rather whine than
constructively improve/promote OpenVMS.)
Neil Rieck
Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,
Ontario, Canada.
http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/links/cool_openvms.html
Bill Gunshannon
Let it go people. He's a linux weenie. I am sure his biggest objection
was to it being about VMS.
bill
--
Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
bi...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton |
Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
Bill Gunshannon
Christopher Browne <cbbr...@acm.org> writes:
> Clinging to sanity, "toby" <to...@telegraphics.com.au> mumbled into her beard:
>> dav...@montagar.com wrote:
>>> >From the description, this looks like an excellent book for a new
>>> OpenVMS Programmer. Thanks for the effort in putting this bok together.
>>
>> It does look interesting. As a hobbyist I wish I could justify the $90
>> - but coincidentally my day job is currently building MySQL
>> applications on other operating systems. It's fascinating that MySQL
>> has made it to VMS and is considered a useful component there (too) -
>> whether one approves of MySQL or not ;-)
>
> I have a hard time fathoming how MySQL would be of interest on a
> platform that has a full-fledged ISAM system, RMS, *built into the
> operating system*, but I suppose there are all types out there...
I have a hard time fathoming how MySQL would be of interest to anyone
when there are (and have been for some time) better choices in the
free software world, too.
Larry Kilgallen
> I think the complaints about the original post were probably raised
> because that post had gone to newsgroups outside of comp.os.vms and to
> those people, the post was not appropriate for their newsgroup.
I complained bitterly some years back when David Turner spammed
comp.os.vms with offers of PC hardware. That was off-topic for
_this_ newsgroup.
vancouv...@yahoo.ca
available for VMS ?
TIA
Bob Koehler
>
> Well, John, you've been wondering what to do with all your free time. :-)
>
> Are we back to "Real programmers write in assembler", to which those
> even older reply "Real programmers hardwire their instructions".
Real programmers do it with BLISS.
Bill Gunshannon
I would love to. Now, where can I find a BLISS Compiler for my PDP-11?
John Reagan
> In article <Q$thk6B...@eisner.encompasserve.org>,
> koe...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:
>
>>In article <z-qdnR5XxMHgvL7Z...@libcom.com>, Dave Froble <da...@tsoft-inc.com> writes:
>>
>>>Well, John, you've been wondering what to do with all your free time. :-)
>>>
>>>Are we back to "Real programmers write in assembler", to which those
>>>even older reply "Real programmers hardwire their instructions".
>>
>> Real programmers do it with BLISS.
>
>
> I would love to. Now, where can I find a BLISS Compiler for my PDP-11?
>
> bill
>
>
I've asked about having the BLISS-16 kit (OpenVMS VAX hosted, PDP-11
target) to be put on the next Freeware CDs. Are you really interested
or just having fun with the thread?
The last kit we have is from 1987. It installed and ran at the time.
I'm pretty sure that nobody else here has tried to install/use it on any
recent OpenVMS VAX versions. And no, we're not going to rehost the
compiler for OpenVMS Alpha or I64. :-)
--
John Reagan
HP Pascal/{A|I}MACRO for OpenVMS Project Leader
Hewlett-Packard Company
Bill Gunshannon
John Reagan <john....@hp.com> writes:
> Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>> In article <Q$thk6B...@eisner.encompasserve.org>,
>> koe...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:
>>
>>>In article <z-qdnR5XxMHgvL7Z...@libcom.com>, Dave Froble <da...@tsoft-inc.com> writes:
>>>
>>>>Well, John, you've been wondering what to do with all your free time. :-)
>>>>
>>>>Are we back to "Real programmers write in assembler", to which those
>>>>even older reply "Real programmers hardwire their instructions".
>>>
>>> Real programmers do it with BLISS.
>>
>>
>> I would love to. Now, where can I find a BLISS Compiler for my PDP-11?
>>
>> bill
>>
>>
>
> I've asked about having the BLISS-16 kit (OpenVMS VAX hosted, PDP-11
> target) to be put on the next Freeware CDs. Are you really interested
> or just having fun with the thread?
No, I would be interested. But I would have been more interested in a
native PDP-11 compiler, which I happen to know never existed. BLISS on
the PDP-11 was always cross-compiled. I have never used (or even seen)
BLISS, but I take the word of the people here who say it is a good
systems programming language and after all the languages I have mastered
to this point, what's one more. :-)
>
> The last kit we have is from 1987. It installed and ran at the time.
> I'm pretty sure that nobody else here has tried to install/use it on any
> recent OpenVMS VAX versions. And no, we're not going to rehost the
> compiler for OpenVMS Alpha or I64. :-)
Isn't it written in BLISS, itself? Any chance of the source being
released? MIght be enough people interested to actually retarget it
in a number of different directions.
John Malmberg
> In article <Q$thk6B...@eisner.encompasserve.org>,
> koe...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:
>>
>> Real programmers do it with BLISS.
>
> I would love to. Now, where can I find a BLISS Compiler for my PDP-11?
Here is a alleged to be a cross compiler that you can run on a simulated
PDP-10.
http://www.idiom.com/free-compilers/TOOL/BLISS11-1.html
ftp://iecc.com/pub/file/bliss.tar.Z
-John
malm...@dskwld.zko.hp.compaq.dec
Personal Opinion Only
Nigel Barker
OpenIngres for a start.
--
Nigel Barker
Live from the sunny Cote d'Azur
Bill Gunshannon
John Malmberg <malm...@dskwld.zko.hp.compaq.dec> writes:
> Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>> In article <Q$thk6B...@eisner.encompasserve.org>,
>> koe...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:
>>>
>>> Real programmers do it with BLISS.
>>
>> I would love to. Now, where can I find a BLISS Compiler for my PDP-11?
>
> Here is a alleged to be a cross compiler that you can run on a simulated
> PDP-10.
>
> http://www.idiom.com/free-compilers/TOOL/BLISS11-1.html
>
> ftp://iecc.com/pub/file/bliss.tar.Z
>
Yes, but setting up and learning to admin as well as use a PDP-10
is an awful lot of work to get a compiler for a language I have
never used. :-) I think I'll wait and see if the VMS one becomes
available.
bill
(who doesn't much care for emulated VAX or PDP-11 systems, much less
a PDP-10!)
Jim Agnew
Jim
Mark Berryman
> In article <Q$thk6B...@eisner.encompasserve.org>,
> koe...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:
>
>>In article <z-qdnR5XxMHgvL7Z...@libcom.com>, Dave Froble <da...@tsoft-inc.com> writes:
>>
>>>Well, John, you've been wondering what to do with all your free time. :-)
>>>
>>>Are we back to "Real programmers write in assembler", to which those
>>>even older reply "Real programmers hardwire their instructions".
>>
>> Real programmers do it with BLISS.
>
>
> I would love to. Now, where can I find a BLISS Compiler for my PDP-11?
The Bliss files at: http://mvb.saic.com/freeware/vmslt97b/pdp11/
may be of interest to you. According to the description contained
therein, this is a cross-compiler that runs on Alpha and generates
PDP-11 Macro code as its output.
Mark Berryman
Bob Koehler
> In article <Q$thk6B...@eisner.encompasserve.org>,
> koe...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:
>> In article <z-qdnR5XxMHgvL7Z...@libcom.com>, Dave Froble <da...@tsoft-inc.com> writes:
>>>
>>> Well, John, you've been wondering what to do with all your free time. :-)
>>>
>>> Are we back to "Real programmers write in assembler", to which those
>>> even older reply "Real programmers hardwire their instructions".
>>
>> Real programmers do it with BLISS.
>
> I would love to. Now, where can I find a BLISS Compiler for my PDP-11?
Source for a BLISS-16 compiler is publically available, I think it's
on the VMS Freeware. You'll need a PDP-10 to run it. You can
probably use SIMH for the latter. You'll need BLISS-10 (or maybe
BLISS-36) to compile it. BLISS-10 used to be on the TOPS-20 freeware
tapes.
I was told DEC had two compilers for BLISS-16: a cross compiler that
ran on PDP-10 under TOPS-10 or TOPS-20 and a cross compiler that ran
on VAX/VMS. I never saw the one that ran on VAX. No native
compiler.
Maybe you'll port the free source to Common BLISS so it will compile
under VMS as well as itself?
Bill Gunshannon
Which probably be of use if had an Alpha available to run it on. :-)
My computers tend to be a bit older than that, though.
Hmmmm...... Never having seen BLISS, I wondxer if there is any chance
whatsoever that the BLISS-64 code for the BLISS-11 compiler could be
rewritten in some other language?
Of course, it should also be rewritten in BLISS-11 so that it could
actually be used to bootstrap itself. How does that sound for a
project?
Bill Gunshannon
koe...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:
> In article <48icepF...@individual.net>, bi...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>> In article <Q$thk6B...@eisner.encompasserve.org>,
>> koe...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:
>>> In article <z-qdnR5XxMHgvL7Z...@libcom.com>, Dave Froble <da...@tsoft-inc.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>> Well, John, you've been wondering what to do with all your free time. :-)
>>>>
>>>> Are we back to "Real programmers write in assembler", to which those
>>>> even older reply "Real programmers hardwire their instructions".
>>>
>>> Real programmers do it with BLISS.
>>
>> I would love to. Now, where can I find a BLISS Compiler for my PDP-11?
>
> Source for a BLISS-16 compiler is publically available, I think it's
> on the VMS Freeware. You'll need a PDP-10 to run it. You can
> probably use SIMH for the latter. You'll need BLISS-10 (or maybe
> BLISS-36) to compile it. BLISS-10 used to be on the TOPS-20 freeware
> tapes.
Yeah, but setting up a simulator, seting up a simulation of a PDP-10 and
installing and running TOPS-10 or TOPS-20 (whichever one it actually takes)
just to compile code for a PDP-11 sure seems like an awful lot of extra
work.
>
> I was told DEC had two compilers for BLISS-16: a cross compiler that
> ran on PDP-10 under TOPS-10 or TOPS-20 and a cross compiler that ran
> on VAX/VMS. I never saw the one that ran on VAX. No native
> compiler.
I was already aware of both of these, I was actually being just a little
sarcastic. Although I have to admit that the new discussion has made
me interested enough in BLISS to take a look at the source with an eye
at porting possibilities.
> Maybe you'll port the free source to Common BLISS so it will compile
> under VMS as well as itself?
What is Common BLISS? Isn't it bad enough that I already know there is
BLISS-11, BLISS-16 and BLISS-64 and I have been led to believe that none
of them are compatable at the source level!!
John Reagan
> Hmmmm...... Never having seen BLISS, I wondxer if there is any chance
> whatsoever that the BLISS-64 code for the BLISS-11 compiler could be
> rewritten in some other language?
The BLISS code inside the BLISS compiler relies HEAVILY on the very
powerful BLISS macro facility. Not easily rewritten into anything.
John Reagan
>
>
> What is Common BLISS? Isn't it bad enough that I already know there is
> BLISS-11, BLISS-16 and BLISS-64 and I have been led to believe that none
> of them are compatable at the source level!!
>
> bill
>
Each BLISS variant often has architecture-specific builtins or features
(like access to REGISTERs or single-instruction builtins). Common BLISS
just avoids those. Nothing surprising.
John Reagan
> Of course, it should also be rewritten in BLISS-11 so that it could
> actually be used to bootstrap itself. How does that sound for a
> project?
>
> bill
>
It won't fit. That is why it was never native on the PDP-11.
People tried. I'm not sure if anything tried to come up with the
overlay file for TKB, but I'm guessing it would be nasty enough such
that TKB would run for 6 months or so. And once linked, I'm guessing it
would rattle your RL01/RK05/whatever-you-have apart for even the
smallest .BLI file.
Rich Alderson
> In article <ZM6lpB...@eisner.encompasserve.org>,
> koe...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:
>> Source for a BLISS-16 compiler is publically available, I think it's
>> on the VMS Freeware. You'll need a PDP-10 to run it. You can
>> probably use SIMH for the latter. You'll need BLISS-10 (or maybe
>> BLISS-36) to compile it. BLISS-10 used to be on the TOPS-20 freeware
>> tapes.
> Yeah, but setting up a simulator, seting up a simulation of a PDP-10 and
> installing and running TOPS-10 or TOPS-20 (whichever one it actually takes)
> just to compile code for a PDP-11 sure seems like an awful lot of extra
> work.
There's also the possibility of working on real hardware administered by a real
professional Tops-20 sysadmin. The Toad-1 at PDPplanet has both BLISS-10 and
BLISS-36 available, and accounts are free.
It would be great to see someone doing real work on the system.
[snip]
> I was already aware of both of these, I was actually being just a little
> sarcastic. Although I have to admit that the new discussion has made
> me interested enough in BLISS to take a look at the source with an eye
> at porting possibilities.
There's a place to start if you want.
>> Maybe you'll port the free source to Common BLISS so it will compile
>> under VMS as well as itself?
> What is Common BLISS? Isn't it bad enough that I already know there is
> BLISS-11, BLISS-16 and BLISS-64 and I have been led to believe that none
> of them are compatable at the source level!!
And BLISS-32 and BLISS-10 and BLISS-36.
A bit of history: I used to work for XKL, the manufacturer of the Toad-1, a
PDP-10 clone that implements the full architecture specification (that is, it
is a superset of the KL-10 processor from DEC). Part of my job was to be the
liaison with Digital for transfer of the 36-bit technology.
In that time frame, about 10 years ago, Digital announced that BLISS-32 and
BLISS-16 were changing status, from very pricy to free to anyone with a valid
VMS license. I got in touch with my contact at Digital and pointed out that if
those were becoming free, then BLISS-36 should be, too. He agreed, and made
the appropriate things happen within Digital so that we got BLISS-36 in time
for first customer ship.
(BLISS-10 and BLISS-11, on the other hand, had always been free, since they
were not written at DEC.)
Anyway, if you're interested, drop by PDPplanet.org and sign up for an account.
--
Rich Alderson | /"\ ASCII ribbon |
ne...@alderson.users.panix.com | \ / campaign against |
"You get what anybody gets. You get a lifetime." | x HTML mail and |
--Death, of the Endless | / \ postings |
Andy Bustamante
ISBN 0-9770866-0-7
As a someone who's been focused on system management, performance and
tuning, this announcment I'm happy to see this announcment here. It's
targeted at a specific group, from a reputable vendor. Product
announcements and patch notices for VMS systems should be welcome here.
In other words, "me too" Zane, David, Bill.
--
Andy Bustamante
Remove the ASCII 95s for e-mail
"Bill Gunshannon" <bi...@cs.uofs.edu> wrote in message
news:48i98sF...@individual.net...
Doug Phillips
> re: The Minimum You Need to Know to Be an OpenVMS Application Developer"
> ISBN 0-9770866-0-7
>
> As a someone who's been focused on system management, performance and
> tuning, this announcment I'm happy to see this announcment here. It's
> targeted at a specific group, from a reputable vendor. Product
> announcements and patch notices for VMS systems should be welcome here.
>
> In other words, "me too" Zane, David, Bill.
>
> --
The question of "Where can I find out about OpenVMS" comes up so often
that this post is *very* on topic in c.o.v., BUT, consider if the post
had been titled: "The Minimum You Need to Know to Be a Linux
Application Developer"
Might have looked like Spam, maybe? Shouldn't have been posted to the
linux group.
Dave Froble
> In article <EDTUf.5253$v15....@news.cpqcorp.net>,
> John Malmberg <malm...@dskwld.zko.hp.compaq.dec> writes:
>
>>Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>
>>>In article <Q$thk6B...@eisner.encompasserve.org>,
>>> koe...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:
>>>
>>>> Real programmers do it with BLISS.
>>>
>>>I would love to. Now, where can I find a BLISS Compiler for my PDP-11?
>>
>>Here is a alleged to be a cross compiler that you can run on a simulated
>>PDP-10.
>>
>>http://www.idiom.com/free-compilers/TOOL/BLISS11-1.html
>>
>>ftp://iecc.com/pub/file/bliss.tar.Z
>>
>
>
> Yes, but setting up and learning to admin as well as use a PDP-10
> is an awful lot of work to get a compiler for a language I have
> never used. :-) I think I'll wait and see if the VMS one becomes
> available.
>
> bill
> (who doesn't much care for emulated VAX or PDP-11 systems, much less
> a PDP-10!)
>
I haven't yet used SIMH, but if I ever do, it would be to emulate the
PDP-10, one of the first computers I ever used.
Dave Froble
> Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> What is Common BLISS? Isn't it bad enough that I already know there is
>> BLISS-11, BLISS-16 and BLISS-64 and I have been led to believe that none
>> of them are compatable at the source level!!
>>
>> bill
>>
>
>
> Each BLISS variant often has architecture-specific builtins or features
> (like access to REGISTERs or single-instruction builtins). Common BLISS
> just avoids those. Nothing surprising.
>
>
What about the BLISS compiler that targetted I guess x86? Wasn't there
such for supporting a Fortran product, and what would have been used for
RDB on windoz or something like that?
Terry Collins
> I have a hard time fathoming how MySQL would be of interest on a
> platform that has a full-fledged ISAM system, RMS, *built into the
> operating system*, but I suppose there are all types out there...
Being completely irrelevant, but i once had the experience of being sys
admin on a project that involved overlaying an oracle system onto an
ISAM stock control system. It was really scary to be involved in.
Thankfully I was only a contractor and wisely left before the company
went belly up.
toby
Christopher Browne wrote:
> Clinging to sanity, "toby" <to...@telegraphics.com.au> mumbled into her beard:
> > dav...@montagar.com wrote:
> >> >From the description, this looks like an excellent book for a new
> >> OpenVMS Programmer. Thanks for the effort in putting this bok together.
> >
> > It does look interesting. As a hobbyist I wish I could justify the $90
> > - but coincidentally my day job is currently building MySQL
> > applications on other operating systems. It's fascinating that MySQL
> > has made it to VMS and is considered a useful component there (too) -
> > whether one approves of MySQL or not ;-)
>
> platform that has a full-fledged ISAM system, RMS, *built into the
> operating system*, but I suppose there are all types out there...
MySQL is a rather different animal. For one thing, it offers SQL out of
the box. Its popularity elsewhere means that skills can be transferred;
MySQL is easy to configure and maintain. Web applications built for the
LAMP stack become portable to VMS. MySQL offers transactions and
replication (and v5 includes triggers, stored procedures, and the
kitchen sink). Just a few things that come immediately to mind.
> --
> output = ("cbbrowne" "@" "ntlug.org")
> http://linuxdatabases.info/info/rdbms.html
> "I heard that if you play the Windows CD backward, you get a satanic
> message. But that's nothing compared to when you play it forward: It
> installs Windows...." -- G. R. Gaudreau
Alexander Schreiber
>
> Christopher Browne wrote:
>> Clinging to sanity, "toby" <to...@telegraphics.com.au> mumbled into her beard:
>> > dav...@montagar.com wrote:
>> >> >From the description, this looks like an excellent book for a new
>> >> OpenVMS Programmer. Thanks for the effort in putting this bok together.
>> >
>> > It does look interesting. As a hobbyist I wish I could justify the $90
>> > - but coincidentally my day job is currently building MySQL
>> > applications on other operating systems. It's fascinating that MySQL
>> > has made it to VMS and is considered a useful component there (too) -
>> > whether one approves of MySQL or not ;-)
>>
>> I have a hard time fathoming how MySQL would be of interest on a
>> platform that has a full-fledged ISAM system, RMS, *built into the
>> operating system*, but I suppose there are all types out there...
>
> MySQL is a rather different animal. For one thing, it offers SQL out of
> the box. Its popularity elsewhere means that skills can be transferred;
> MySQL is easy to configure and maintain. Web applications built for the
> LAMP stack become portable to VMS. MySQL offers transactions and
> replication (and v5 includes triggers, stored procedures, and the
> kitchen sink). Just a few things that come immediately to mind.
It also doesn't believe in data integrity and has very dubious ideas
about SQL and what a RDBMS is supposed to do. Just google for "MySQL
gotchas".
Regards,
Alex.
--
What they (MySQL) lose in usability, they gain back in benchmarks, and that's
all that matters: getting the wrong answer really fast. -- Randal L. Schwartz
Steven N. Hirsch
>>> David Turner at Island is probably single handedly responsible for
>>> putting more cheap Alpha boxes in the hands of home users than any
>>> other vendor. He's got a bunch of DS10ls going for $89 dollars at the
>>> moment.
Really? If that's the case they are well-hidden on Island's web site. I
just spent 5 minutes poking around and found nothing of the sort.
Ian Miller
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.vms/browse_thread/thread/fe39a9db499bd277
David J. Dachtera
Islandco seems to generally announce such things via the newsgroups
since that's where the bulk of the demand is found. Alpha (and VMS!) is
such a well-kept secret that the mainstream has long forgotten it
("Didn't that die back in March (15) of 2001?")
--
David J. Dachtera
dba DJE Systems
http://www.djesys.com/
Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page:
http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/
David J. Dachtera
> [snip]
> 4. A very rational engineer at HP once told me some folks in OpenVMS
> engineering are convinced that the first 4 letters of "comp.os.vms" stand
> for COMPLAIN. Attempts to help out usually result in some kind of attack.
> (I heard this a couple of years back but now feel the need to pass it on to
> the newsgroup because there are a few bad apples who would rather whine than
> constructively improve/promote OpenVMS.)
<metaphor>
Sometimes, the bucket *IS* half-empty, and telling the water-bearer,
"Oh, sure! We have plenty!" doesn't carry very far when that bucket is
leaking faster than you can catch the outflow.
</metaphor>
toby
Alexander Schreiber wrote:
> toby <to...@telegraphics.com.au> wrote:
> >
> > Christopher Browne wrote:
> >> Clinging to sanity, "toby" <to...@telegraphics.com.au> mumbled into her beard:
> >> > dav...@montagar.com wrote:
> >> >> >From the description, this looks like an excellent book for a new
> >> >> OpenVMS Programmer. Thanks for the effort in putting this bok together.
> >> >
> >> > It does look interesting. As a hobbyist I wish I could justify the $90
> >> > - but coincidentally my day job is currently building MySQL
> >> > applications on other operating systems. It's fascinating that MySQL
> >> > has made it to VMS and is considered a useful component there (too) -
> >> > whether one approves of MySQL or not ;-)
> >>
> >> I have a hard time fathoming how MySQL would be of interest on a
> >> platform that has a full-fledged ISAM system, RMS, *built into the
> >> operating system*, but I suppose there are all types out there...
> >
> > MySQL is a rather different animal. For one thing, it offers SQL out of
> > the box. Its popularity elsewhere means that skills can be transferred;
> > MySQL is easy to configure and maintain. Web applications built for the
> > LAMP stack become portable to VMS. MySQL offers transactions and
> > replication (and v5 includes triggers, stored procedures, and the
> > kitchen sink). Just a few things that come immediately to mind.
>
> It also doesn't believe in data integrity
I'm not sure what you mean by this. The developers may disagree. When
did you last use it?
> and has very dubious ideas
> about SQL and what a RDBMS is supposed to do. Just google for "MySQL
> gotchas".
Yes, I am well aware. Nonetheless, the differences cited above remain
valid.
Hans Bachner
<snip>
> I have a hard time fathoming how MySQL would be of interest on a
> platform that has a full-fledged ISAM system, RMS, *built into the
> operating system*, but I suppose there are all types out there...
I agree that I wouldn't use MySQL to develop a new application on OpenVMS
for various reasons, but if there is an application which already runs on
various platforms (usually Windows, Linux and/or other Unix flavours) it
can easily be used on OpenVMS as well. And there are plenty of
tools/goodies/utilities out there which fit into this frame.
Hans.
Larry Kilgallen
Perhaps there should be some Logo of honor "Developed Specifically for VMS".
Rich Alderson
> I haven't yet used SIMH, but if I ever do, it would be to emulate the
> PDP-10, one of the first computers I ever used.
Of course, SimH only emulates a KS-10, but it's ok for getting your feet wet.
For later OSes, you need to run KLH10. (Both are hosted by Tim Shoppa, the
PDP-11 guy.)
toby
"Proudly Nonportable"? Hmmm...
Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER
>Neil Rieck wrote:
>> [snip]
>> 4. A very rational engineer at HP once told me some folks in OpenVMS
>> engineering are convinced that the first 4 letters of "comp.os.vms" stand
>> for COMPLAIN.
Almost. C.O.V. means COMPLAIN ON VENDOR.
And I think we have all reason to...
--
Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER
Network and OpenVMS system specialist
E-mail pe...@langstoeger.at
A-1030 VIENNA AUSTRIA I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist
Arne Vajhøj
> MySql out of the box is not that good actually (at least last time I
> looked). It needs addons to du proper stuff and is in many ways
> releatively primitive.
>
> Its redeeming feature is price.
I have never used MySQL on VMS, but some on Windows
and Linux.
Oracle and DB2 may not need to be particular afraid
of MySQL, because it is still missing a lot in
enterprise features.
But for those needing less than enterprise
level, then it is a nice database. It has what
you need. Very few bugs. Easy to find tools
for it. Easy to find people with experience
with it.
Arne
Arne Vajhøj
> It also doesn't believe in data integrity
????
You can choose between speed (MyISAM) and integrity (InnoDB).
> and has very dubious ideas
> about SQL and what a RDBMS is supposed to do.
4.1 added subqueries.
5.0 added views (and stored proceduresd which I would not use).
What more do you want ?
Arne
toby
Christopher Browne wrote:
> Clinging to sanity, "toby" <to...@telegraphics.com.au> mumbled into her beard:
> > dav...@montagar.com wrote:
> >> >From the description, this looks like an excellent book for a new
> >> OpenVMS Programmer. Thanks for the effort in putting this bok together.
> >
> > It does look interesting. As a hobbyist I wish I could justify the $90
> > - but coincidentally my day job is currently building MySQL
> > applications on other operating systems. It's fascinating that MySQL
> > has made it to VMS and is considered a useful component there (too) -
> > whether one approves of MySQL or not ;-)
>
> platform that has a full-fledged ISAM system, RMS, *built into the
> operating system*, but I suppose there are all types out there...
A very interesting page which covers a variety of databases on VMS
(including MySQL) is Neil Rieck's
http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/docs/rms_rdb_notes.html
Bob Koehler
>
> What is Common BLISS? Isn't it bad enough that I already know there is
> BLISS-11, BLISS-16 and BLISS-64 and I have been led to believe that none
> of them are compatable at the source level!!
Once upon a time there was just BLISS. It ran on PDP-10 but there
were ports to other systems. DEC picked it up and it eventually
became BLISS-10.
DEC updated BLISS and had three dialects: BLISS-16, BLISS-32, and
BLISS-36 (which replaced BLISS-10). The base langauge and common
features were known as Common BLISS.
Now there are other dialects, but the common stuff I think is still
Common BLISS. If you can stick to that your code should readily
port between any current BLISS compiler.
Common BLISS also supporte dialect specific compilation. Older
compilers like BLISS-10 didn't do that as a fully built-in feature.
David J. Dachtera
>
> Clinging to sanity, "toby" <to...@telegraphics.com.au> mumbled into her beard:
> > dav...@montagar.com wrote:
> >> >From the description, this looks like an excellent book for a new
> >> OpenVMS Programmer. Thanks for the effort in putting this bok together.
> >
> > It does look interesting. As a hobbyist I wish I could justify the $90
> > - but coincidentally my day job is currently building MySQL
> > applications on other operating systems. It's fascinating that MySQL
> > has made it to VMS and is considered a useful component there (too) -
> > whether one approves of MySQL or not ;-)
>
> I have a hard time fathoming how MySQL would be of interest on a
> platform that has a full-fledged ISAM system, RMS, *built into the
> operating system*, but I suppose there are all types out there...
Indexing and record-level retrieval is only part of the story. RDBMSs do
much more than RMS, including providing an API that tools such as
Datatrieve never had. All-in-1 came close, but is a terrible resource
hog.
RMS lacks a data dictionary and a query language as well.
(This from an old AIS, RSTS/E and VMS hand.)
Christopher Browne
> Christopher Browne wrote:
>>
>> Clinging to sanity, "toby" <to...@telegraphics.com.au> mumbled into her beard:
>> > dav...@montagar.com wrote:
>> >> >From the description, this looks like an excellent book for a new
>> >> OpenVMS Programmer. Thanks for the effort in putting this bok together.
>> >
>> > It does look interesting. As a hobbyist I wish I could justify the $90
>> > - but coincidentally my day job is currently building MySQL
>> > applications on other operating systems. It's fascinating that MySQL
>> > has made it to VMS and is considered a useful component there (too) -
>> > whether one approves of MySQL or not ;-)
>>
>> I have a hard time fathoming how MySQL would be of interest on a
>> platform that has a full-fledged ISAM system, RMS, *built into the
>> operating system*, but I suppose there are all types out there...
>
> Indexing and record-level retrieval is only part of the story. RDBMSs do
> much more than RMS, including providing an API that tools such as
> Datatrieve never had. All-in-1 came close, but is a terrible resource
> hog.
>
> RMS lacks a data dictionary and a query language as well.
>
> (This from an old AIS, RSTS/E and VMS hand.)
The thing is, MySQL is little more than a thin layering of a not
terribly consistent SQL "processor" on top of something rather less
mature than RMS...
--
wm(X,Y):-write(X),write('@'),write(Y). wm('cbbrowne','ntlug.org').
http://linuxdatabases.info/info/postgresql.html
Why are there flotation devices under plane seats instead of
parachutes?
Marc Schlensog
Christopher Browne <cbbr...@acm.org> wrote:
[...]
>
> The thing is, MySQL is little more than a thin layering of a not
> terribly consistent SQL "processor" on top of something rather less
> mature than RMS...
Just for interest: What would be a viable zero-/lowcost alternative
that covers the same needs as mySQL does?
TIA,
Marc
Alexander Schreiber
Gave it up a few years ago in disgust and switched over to a real RDBMS
(PostgreSQL).
Try the following:
create table test (val int);
insert into test (val) values (4294967296);
Notice the lack of a type constraint error being raised.
select * from test;
with MySQL (last tested with 4.0) you get:
mysql> select * from test;
+------------+
| val |
+------------+
| 2147483647 |
+------------+
1 row in set (0.00 sec)
WTF? A so-called RDBMS that silently fucks up my data?
Trying the same with PostgreSQL I get the expected "ERROR: dtoi4:
integer out of range" and no data inserted.
Also, it doesn't support ACID by default (another WTF moment), one has
to switch to a special table type (InnoDB) to get at least transactions.
I've come to regard the use of MySQL instead of a real RDBMS as a big
warning sign "has no clue about databases". I've seen far too many MySQL
applications where that one was true :-(
Regards,
Alex.
--
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison
Alexander Schreiber
> Alexander Schreiber wrote:
>> It also doesn't believe in data integrity
>
> ????
Silent data modification, see the other post:
<slrne2kae...@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>.
> You can choose between speed (MyISAM) and integrity (InnoDB).
Which is a creative approach[1] in itself. And it is interesting to see
what will happen, now that Oracle has bought InnoDB.
>> and has very dubious ideas
>> about SQL and what a RDBMS is supposed to do.
>
> 4.1 added subqueries.
Finally, after it was "right around the corner" for years.
> 5.0 added views (and stored proceduresd which I would not use).
You don't trust them yet? *g*
Stored procedures are a must. Views too.
> What more do you want ?
Data integrity would be nice. Full ACID too. Referential integrity.
A less fucked up way to manage users. To cite the manual[0] for
creating users:
GRANT SELECT,INSERT,UPDATE,DELETE,CREATE,DROP ON bankaccount.* TO
'custom'@'localhost' IDENTIFIED BY 'obscure';
Alternatively, hacking the system tables directly. And this is supposed
to be easy?
How about:
create user foobar with password 's3kr3t';
grant select on finance to foobar;
drop user foobar;
As used in another RDBMS?
Regards,
Alex.
[0] http://dev.mysql.com/doc/refman/5.0/en/adding-users.html
[1] And being creative when implementing a RDBMS is as good an idea
as creative accounting.
Dr. Dweeb
You may want to investigate Firebird, a database with a chequered past
and a product which surely is the most re-named in the history of IT.
Dweeb.
Dr. Dweeb
create table T1 (c1 number);
create unique index X1 on T1 (c1);
insert into T1 (c1) values (1);
insert into T1 (c1) values (2);
insert into T1 (c1) values (1);
-- this will generate an index duplicate violation)
commit;
-- and see how many rows you have.
select count (*) from T1;
The answer will probably differ from database to database
Dr. Dweeb.
Malcolm Dunnett
Marc Schlensog <fishta...@web.de> writes:
>>
>> The thing is, MySQL is little more than a thin layering of a not
>> terribly consistent SQL "processor" on top of something rather less
>> mature than RMS...
>
> Just for interest: What would be a viable zero-/lowcost alternative
> that covers the same needs as mySQL does?
>
I would imagine Oracle 10g Express Edition would be perfect for
many (most?) application that currently use MySQL. It's free and
supports a database size of up to 4GB.
see http://www.oracle.com/technology/products/database/xe/index.html
Unfortunately it's not available for VMS, only Windows and Linux :-(
toby
All these are well known in past versions and likely fixed in recent
ones.
By the way, the developers are committed to product quality and really
do listen to feedback. How many db vendors have this level of
transparency: http://bugs.mysql.com/bugstats.php
I was talking to MySQL people this morning actually and just bought two
Network licenses today.
MySQL is now a serious contender. Their problems are trying to overcome
people's preconceptions about the name - i.e. marketing, not technical.
This thread illustrates the marketing difficulty.
Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing
Question, because I don't know: Is anybody supporting recent versions on VMS?
Firebird sure looks homey and comfortable to Rdb DBAs.
-- Alan
Alexander Schreiber
We will see. I seriously hope that MySQL will deliver something that can
honestly be called a RDBMS some day.
> By the way, the developers are committed to product quality and really
> do listen to feedback. How many db vendors have this level of
> transparency: http://bugs.mysql.com/bugstats.php
You might want to check out PostgreSQL.
> I was talking to MySQL people this morning actually and just bought two
> Network licenses today.
There are plenty of problems where a full RDBMS isn't really needed and
an RDBMS-lookalike like MySQL is perfectly sufficient. So, if MySQL
fills your needs, by all means, use it.
> MySQL is now a serious contender.
As always, "that depends". If one needs a full RDBMS then no, MySQL is
not even close. But a lot of projects can make do with less.
> Their problems are trying to overcome
> people's preconceptions about the name - i.e. marketing, not technical.
Because the technical problems aren't so easy to overcome? ;-)
Arne Vajhøj
> Arne Vajhøj <ar...@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
>> You can choose between speed (MyISAM) and integrity (InnoDB).
>Which is a creative approach[1] in itself.
> [1] And being creative when implementing a RDBMS is as good an idea
> as creative accounting.
????
Most people consider the ability to choose between different
types of characteristics a good thing.
And if creativity was a bad thing in database I guess we would
still be using hierachical databases (ot whatever the first
databases were).
> And it is interesting to see
>what will happen, now that Oracle has bought InnoDB.
I guess this is what is usually called FUD.
>> 4.1 added subqueries.
>
> Finally, after it was "right around the corner" for years.
And ?
Is a feature less valuable because it is not 10 years old ?
>> 5.0 added views (and stored proceduresd which I would not use).
>
> You don't trust them yet? *g*
In most professional software development nowadays database
independence is a must and therefore SP's are on the forbidden
list.
> Stored procedures are a must. Views too.
VIEWS yes.
SP's no (not until SP's becomes portable among databases).
>> What more do you want ?
>
> Data integrity would be nice. Full ACID too. Referential integrity.
Done. Done. Done.
Just requires people to write TYPE=INNODB once.
> A less fucked up way to manage users. To cite the manual[0] for
> creating users:
>
> GRANT SELECT,INSERT,UPDATE,DELETE,CREATE,DROP ON bankaccount.* TO
> 'custom'@'localhost' IDENTIFIED BY 'obscure';
> How about:
>
> create user foobar with password 's3kr3t';
> grant select on finance to foobar;
> drop user foobar;
>
> As used in another RDBMS?
I do not care much about the SQL syntax. It is not that hard to
learn.
Some people may like the extra security in the MySQL
way of doing it.
Arne
Arne Vajhøj
> The thing is, MySQL is little more than a thin layering of a not
> terribly consistent SQL "processor" on top of something rather less
> mature than RMS...
This reminds me of one day in 94 or 95 where a DEC VAR
guy was asked about if he think it was wise of DEC to work
together with Microsoft and the reply was that Microsoft was
just a small company that noone should be afraid of.
Lots of companies use MySQL today for databases.
Maybe not Oracle & DB2 configs, but still
hundres og gigabytes of data and huge apps
(typical web apps).
And belive me RMS index-sequential files or any
other ISAM file library would not be a practical
alternative.
Arne
Arne Vajhøj
> On Tue, 28 Mar 2006 22:54:01 -0500
> that covers the same needs as mySQL does?
VMS: good question
Windows & Linux: PostgreSQL and Firebird
Arne
Arne Vajhøj
>>> It also doesn't believe in data integrity
>> I'm not sure what you mean by this. The developers may disagree. When
>> did you last use it?
> Try the following:
>
> create table test (val int);
> insert into test (val) values (4294967296);
>
> Notice the lack of a type constraint error being raised.
>
> select * from test;
>
> with MySQL (last tested with 4.0) you get:
> mysql> select * from test;
> +------------+
> | val |
> +------------+
> | 2147483647 |
> +------------+
> 1 row in set (0.00 sec)
>
> WTF? A so-called RDBMS that silently fucks up my data?
Cute little bug.
And it is in newer versions as well.
But it does not prove in any way your claim "It also
doesn't believe in data integrity". To do that you would
need to show that it was a design decision. Most software
has bugs.
> Also, it doesn't support ACID by default (another WTF moment), one has
> to switch to a special table type (InnoDB) to get at least transactions.
And ?
Some people need transactions. Some people do not need
transactions.
MySQL wanted to be able to give both what they want.
Not a bad thing.
And you can set the default table type as you want it to be.
Arne
Dr. Dweeb
You clearly love MySQL.
However, it is a toy database for toy applications - and explain
exactly how MySQL is *not* "any other ISAM file library".
Until recently (and maybe still), one did not have to go far into the
manual to realise that the developers were totally clueless as to the
requirements of a database per se, and of a relational database in
particular.
Faulty understanding of the issues involved led to fundamentally flawed
product. the fact that InnoBase even exists, is, well, proof by
existence, that the original and current MySQL is seroiusly flawed.
And I am sorry, the notion that dat integrity is the responsibility of
the application, as the developers of MySQL so fondly recounted in the
manuals says exactly everything you need to know about their level of
understanding of the theory, or for that matter, practice of databases
in general and relational databases in particular.
If you want a glorified file system with a toy SQL on top if it for
non-critical applications - fine, use MySQL. I can conceive of few
applications with even the most limited data integrity and security
requirements that would be well served by MySQL.
Dr. Dweeb
David Turner, Island Computers US Corp
I do apologise for posting the "ad" about Roland Hughes' new book (which we
only charge a CC processing fee for offering) on the C.O.L.A. newsgroup.
In future I will not post anything there, even if the deal IS too good to
refuse.
If you need to see good Alpha deals, try COMP.OS.VMS and COMP.SYS.DEC
Goo'bye C.O.L.A !
--
David B Turner
Island Computers US Corp
2700 Gregory St, Suite 180
Savannah GA 31404
Tel: 912 447 6622 X201
Cell: 912 447 6622 X252
Fax: 912 201 0402
Email: dbtu...@icusc.com
Web: http://www.islandco.com
=====================================
All orders are subject to the following terms and conditions
of sale. These should be read before ordering.
http://www.islandco.com/warranty.html
"Christopher Browne" <cbbr...@acm.org> wrote in message
news:87r74lc...@wolfe.cbbrowne.com...
Marty Kuhrt
> Christopher Browne wrote:
>> I have a hard time fathoming how MySQL would be of interest on a
>> platform that has a full-fledged ISAM system, RMS, *built into the
>> operating system*, but I suppose there are all types out there...
>
>
> Query language, fast remote access, security system etc..
>
> There are reasons RDB and Oracle (classic) has been used
> on VMS for many years.
>
> Now there are an open source database alternative.
>
> Arne
>
I second what Arne said, with slight additions.
I wrote a number of session tracking, customer tracking, etc,
etc, things using RMS index files for an Apache server running
VMS, and they worked fine,
BUT...
When I wanted to add some features and nifties that I saw on some
other sites, the only freeware I could find on the net to do this
was using some variant of php and mySQL. Sure, I could write my
own and reinvent the wheel, but I'd rather be lazy and use
someone elses wheel.
I, for one, welcome our new alien overlords, php and mySQL (on
VMS of course)! Three cheers for the VAMP project!
Bill Gunshannon
Well, if it is anything like PHP under unix, VMS may soon have another
first.
bill
--
Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
bi...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton |
Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
Arne Vajhøj
> You clearly love MySQL.
Not particular. See below.
I defended MySQL because of all the posts similar to this.
Lots of negative adjectives and bad mouthing may be a good
thing when selling stuff to managers who does not have a clue,
but in a technical forum it is not particular impressive.
And your logic is horrible.
"the fact that InnoBase even exists, is, well, proof by
existence, that the original and current MySQL is seroiusly flawed"
Proof ? Not even an indication !
The fact that Ford produces the Ekspedition is that an
indication of that the GT is a bad car ? No - those two
models serve very different markets !
Or if you thinks cars and databases are too different.
Does the existence of Oracle Times Ten indicate that
Oracle 10g is a bad database ? No - again they complement
each other by serving different purposes.
I could probably write 10 to 20 things
about MySQL that I do not like. But that would be
based on facts not just a lot of "toy", "flawed" etc..
And I could find something to complain over in
all other databases (that I know) as well.
Arne
David J. Dachtera
>
> Well Arne,
>
> You clearly love MySQL.
No doubt, is has its uses.
> However, it is a toy database for toy applications - and explain
> exactly how MySQL is *not* "any other ISAM file library".
Is there an RTL that you can link against, ala RMS on RSTS/E? Perhaps an
.OLB? Is it integrated into any 3GLs, ala RMS on RSTSE/E, VMS, etc. such
that a language built-in can be used rather than a call to an external
routine?
> Until recently (and maybe still), one did not have to go far into the
> manual to realise that the developers were totally clueless as to the
> requirements of a database per se, and of a relational database in
> particular.
>
> Faulty understanding of the issues involved led to fundamentally flawed
> product. the fact that InnoBase even exists, is, well, proof by
> existence, that the original and current MySQL is seroiusly flawed.
>
> And I am sorry, the notion that dat integrity is the responsibility of
> the application, as the developers of MySQL so fondly recounted in the
> manuals says exactly everything you need to know about their level of
> understanding of the theory, or for that matter, practice of databases
> in general and relational databases in particular.
What protection does RMS provide against assigning, for example, the
content of string field into a quadword integer? ...or the content of an
unsigned longword to the memory space occupied by a floating point
field?
> If you want a glorified file system
Is there "a glorified file system" underlying or provided with Oracle?
Seems to me it depends only on the extreme low-level primitives
underlying ODS, but side-steps enough of it that it can't even handle
bound volume-sets.
AFAIK, Oracle provides no file system services outside of itself.
> with a toy SQL on top if it for
> non-critical applications - fine, use MySQL. I can conceive of few
> applications with even the most limited data integrity and security
> requirements that would be well served by MySQL.
If sloppy programming practice is the rule of the day, even Oracle won't
help.
--
David J Dachtera
dba DJE Systems
http://www.djesys.com/
Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page
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Ian Miller
http://www.openvms.org/stories.php?story=06/04/02/4453076