Setting up freeAXP and X-windows on same PC

[Tom Adams]

I am working with someone who seems to think that X-windows needs to run on a separate computer.

I would like to have a laptop that runs both. Will probably use Xfree or eXcursion. I would like to loop-back on the same computer using localhost or something. Is this possible?

This is so I can support the other guy maintaining and upgrading some custom software. I am retired and offsite. Prefer to stay offsite given the pandemic.

At home, I could use multiple computers, but would like to just use one.

I have set up PCs to run X-terminal software before, but never looping back to freeAXP on the same computer.

Also, my laptop runs Win 7 and my desktops run Win 10. I figure I can maybe run eXcursion in compatibility mode. We have run Xfree on many windows OSes.

[Jan-Erik Söderholm]

Now, FreeAXP and (the rest of) your laptop are two differnt "computers",
raen't they? So "localhost" in FreeAXP is not the same as "localhost"
on (the rest of) your laptop, is it?

Doesn't FreeAXP use another IP address then (the rest of) your laptop?

My guess is that FreeAXP and your X-terminal display would communicate
just as if they were running on two different physical computers.
They cannot tell the difference anyway.

[Tom Adams]

Makes sense. But I guess there would have to be a virtual network or something, right? I, of course, know the IP address of the virtual Alpha computer, but I find it hard to believe that that address is all I have to type in to configure the X-terminal software.

The Putty refers to Charon via localhost and a number if I recall correctly.

[Volker Halle]

Tom,

can you ping the laptop IP address from OpenVMS running in your FreeAXP instance ? And vice versa ? If so, you should be all set…

Start your X-Server on your laptop and issue the following in your OpenVMS system:

$ SET DISPLAY/CREATE/NODE=ip.address.of.laptop/TRANSPORT=TCPIP

Then test X-Windows with:

$ RUN DECW$EXAMPLES:ICO

you should get a rotating 'thing' on your laptop's X-Windows display.

Volker.

[Volker Halle]

>
> The Putty refers to Charon via localhost and a number if I recall correctly.

Tom,

that's a different thing: Putty connects to the CHARON emulator OPA0 device, which is being offered by the emulator program on a local IP port (typically port 10003).

Also note that there is a little video on how to configure networking for FreeAXP at the bottom of the VSI training Hobbyist website:

https://training.vmssoftware.com/hobbyist/

Volker.

[Jan-Erik Söderholm]

The emulator maps the console of the emulated "computer" to the host
operating system. That is available no matter if VMS is running or not.
Much like connecting a VT-screen to the COM port on a real Alpha server.

When VMS has booted, it runs on its own as "another computer" using a
different IP address from the host opeating system where FreeAXP runs.

Your host laptop OS and the emulated VMS OS should be able to communicate
throught your default router in your network, just as if they had been
two separate hardware boxes.

I think there are some emulators that also are smart enough to be able
to route TCPIP directly between the host OS and the client OS, but that
is not really needed stricly tecknically. Your normal default router
can also route that TCPIP traffic.

The emulator usually has some "virtual network device", that connects
in, what is it called, "promiscular mode"? so that TCPIP traffic to
both addresses are accepted from the network.

Some emulators also can use a second network interface, if your
specific hardware (laptop) has that.

[s.ca...@ieee.org]

I have run FreeAXP with OpenVMS on my laptop and connected to it from the same laptop (using telnet and ssh). I haven't tried X-Windows from the same laptop but there is no reason that shouldn't work if it works from another computer.

Migration Specialties has some very good documentation about configuring Avanti/FreeAXP on their website (http://www.migrationspecialties.com/FreeAXP.html) They also reference a support forum (on http://www.openvmshobbyist.com/forum/). I've used the forum and gotten really good help when I've gotten stuck. Chapter 10 in the user guide is all about networking with FreeAXP. Section 8.4 is about the host network configuration (the Windows box). You save yourself a lot of potential trouble shooting if you are able to use the wired connection on your laptop.

Even though your client and server are on the same physical box, from a network perspective - they appear to be separate entities. Your Windows firewall can block your X-Windows traffic.

[Andrew Brehm]

I use FreeAXP and MobaXterm on the same PC. It has nothing to do with localhost, as FreeAXP is another computer with its own IP address.

However, FreeAXP does require the same NIC as the PC, which makes it difficult to access the FreeAXP emulated computer from the host computer. The solution is described in the manual on page 56, chapter titled "NETWORKING AVANTI ON A SYSTEM WITH A SINGLE NIC". The Microsoft loopback solution didn't work for me, but their proposed solution using OpenVPN's loopback adapter does indeed work if you follow their instructions precisely.

I found my PC to be a bit unstable though with the loopback adapter. It crashed a few times in a few months and the faulting module was always the loopback adapter. So I recommend against using this on a production machine. Use two physical NICs instead, one for the host, one for FreeAXP.

Once you can ping the OpenVMS VM from the host and vice versa, set up ssh and xdm and you are done.


--
Andrew Brehm

[Tom Adams]

I tried the solution from Avanti and it did not work.

The NET STOP MSIPCAP command indicated that it could not stop MSIPCAP, so I rebooted hoping that would have the same effect.

I bridged the Avanti NIC to my Ethernet adapter. My Ethernet adapter is not connected to a cable and does not seem to have an IP address. I don't know if that matters. (I use wifi to get to my home router)

I know very little about networking.

Also I have HYPER-V installed and I was trying to use a HYPER-V virtual switch but that did not work. It worked for the guy I am working with remotely when he set up his home virtual environment.

[Jan-Erik Söderholm]

When I played with this last summer, I had all kind of issues
when I tried to bridge my Wifi to use both the host laptop
and the guest.

As I remember it, it was easier using the wired ethernet port.
And that way it was stable and worked just fine. I had both
a "console" Putty session and a normal telnet session running
from the same host laptop. Any networking should work OK, such
as a X session.

I cannot remember if I got it running over Wifi at all...

[Jan-Erik Söderholm]

Den 2020-04-16 kl. 16:11, skrev Tom Adams:

> I guess you mean hooking up a different computer with a patch cable? It that what you mean by wired internet?
>
> I guess you mean I should be able to pick the virtual vms system from a different computer if it is all hard wired?
>

No. I just used the wired interface on my laptop instead of the Wifi.
Same computer/laptop, just used the "other" interface...

[Tom Adams]

OK, I guess you did what I tried. I bridged the Avanti NIC to my ethernet port which does not have cable. Is that what you mean.

I am wondering if there is any configuration that would work. Any way to the the virtual VMS system to network with anything.

I set it up on another Windows 10 system that I have and I can get networking there either. I tried the Avanti approach there.

There is a step in the Avanti procedure where you are suppose to stop and start MSIPCAP. But it refuses to stop. I rebooted my system hoping that that would have the desired effect of stopping and starting the service.

[Tom Adams]

I meant that I cannot get networking on either of my Windows 10 systems.

[Jan-Erik Söderholm]

If you with "my ethernet port which does not have cable" refer to
your Wifi port, then yes, I hade troubles with that.

>
> I am wondering if there is any configuration that would work. Any way to
> the the virtual VMS system to network with anything.
>

Of course there is! Whan I used the wired port it worked very good.

> I set it up on another Windows 10 system that I have and I can get
> networking there either. I tried the Avanti approach there.
>

Right, if you *still* are using the Wifi port, I cannot help.

> There is a step in the Avanti procedure where you are suppose to stop
> and start MSIPCAP. But it refuses to stop. I rebooted my system hoping
> that that would have the desired effect of stopping and starting the
> service.
>

I might have the laptop here. I'll try to power it up and see if
I can document the setup. But as I remember, I did mostly as the
docs says. Maybe I fetched some bridging driver from somewere else...

Jan-Erik.

[Jan-Erik Söderholm]

From Windows? Or from the Avanti emulator? If you stil are trying
over the Wifi, I cannot help. I never got that working.

>

[Tom Adams]

I have tried lots of things. I am currently not trying over Wifi.

Originally I tried a Hyper-V switch setup that worked for a guy I am working with. We are both setting up virtual vms systems so we can be more productive at home.

I have tried various arrangements. I have the Avanti NIC installed and followed the instructions for that. Not working,

But, I realized that I might not need that. I configured the NIC to be my ethernet card that has no cable and that is not working either.

I cannot ping the vms system's ip address from the windows command prompt. This is where I am stuck. My goal is to set up Xfree and be able to use Decwindows.

My Windows 10 system has a wifi and an empty ethernet port.

I want to have the virtural alpha and xfree on the same computer. But, at this point, I would be willing to run Xfree on another computer.

By "Avanti emulator" I guess you mean the virtual vms system. I can ping it's IP from the vms prompt, if that is what you are asking.

[Tom Adams]

When I say ethernet card I don't mean wifi.

I have 3 windows computers at home:

1. My office Windows 10 computer connects to the house router via wifi and has a free ethernet card.

2. Another Windows 10 computer that is currently connected to router via cable, but I can be switched to use wifi.

3. A Windows 7 laptop that I have not tried to use (so far) for this project. It has a ethernet connector and wifi.

[Tom Adams]

The problem is that I can't get the ping. I am stuck at that point. I can't find a configuration that provides a working network for the virtual vms system.

[Jan-Erik Söderholm]

If/when I get time, I can look at the config on my lab-laptop...

[s.ca...@ieee.org]

Does the hardwired NIC have an IP address assigned it it? You can find this out from the command interface c:\ ipconfig

C:\Users\Steve>ipconfig

Windows IP Configuration


Ethernet adapter Local Area Connection:

Connection-specific DNS Suffix . :
Link-local IPv6 Address . . . . . : fe80::c7a:b8cc:
IPv4 Address. . . . . . . . . . . : 192.168.x.x
Subnet Mask . . . . . . . . . . . : 255.255.x.x
Default Gateway . . . . . . . . . : 192.168.x.x

If it does have an IP address can you ping the address from the windows machine/from another windows machine?

If you can verify that the Windows box can communicate through that interface (NIC) then take the next steps to connect up the virtual nic with a bridge and the appropriate settings for the nics.

I apologize if this is too simple/redundant for you but I'm taking you at your word that you don't have a lot of networking experience.

[Bill Gunshannon]

All this talk made me curious. I grabbed the student distribution
and tried it. Sadly, if you don't have the latest and greatest from
MicroSoft apparently you don't get to play. No Linux, tried Wine
but it won't run. Wouldn't run on Windows 7 so I probably won't
even bother trying on XP or Vista. Somewhat disappointed.


bill

[s.ca...@ieee.org]

Was this a 64-bit version of Windows 7 where the installation failed?

[Bill Gunshannon]

Good point, I just checked and it's 32. Too bad it didn't just
say that. It claimed Windows 7 wasn't supported. Still leaves
me kinda high and dry. If I have any 64bit Windows boxes they are
likely running Vista and I am not likely to buy any new Microsoft
OSes.

bill

[Bill Gunshannon]

My disappointment has been abated. Not only did I find a laptop
with 64bit Win7 but it turns out it will run under Wine on Ubuntu
Linux.

Now, configuration is going to be another matter. Like others
here the first thing I need to get up is a network. We'll see
how it goes.

I have at least one project to take a look at. It fits in with
the recent discussion of editors. :-)

bill

[John E. Malmberg]

On 4/18/2020 9:11 AM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>
>
> My disappointment has been abated.  Not only did I find a laptop
> with 64bit Win7 but it turns out it will run under Wine on Ubuntu
> Linux.

Can you let us know the details on how to get FreeAXP running under Wine?

This is the first report I have seen of a success from the people who
have attempted it.

Regards,
-John

[Bill Gunshannon]

The basic part was easy. I merely ran the installer under Wine.
It installed and even created shortcuts on my Desktop. I can't
seem to get the Config Editor to work. It starts up but won't
save the changes. Complains about the names of totally unrelated
files like the .log and .nvr and refuses to write out the new
config. But I have manually edited the .cfg to add a disk to
hold User Files and next I plan to add the other serial line so
I can keep the console up while working on other projects.
Networking is likely to be an issue as I have no idea how one would
get the PCAP shim in wine. Maybe it won't be necessary. One
step at a time.

bill

[Bill Gunshannon]

Working on the Wine installation. So far so good.
Created a user.
Gave him a home directory on a separate disk from the system stuff.
(Haven't figured out how to mount it automatically. Sure I knew
at one point, but it's been a while.)
Edited a program.
Compiled, linked and ran it.

Now to try something serious. :-)

Oh yeah, haven't crashed it yet so I guess it's going to be stable
running on Linux for those of us who are not MicroSoft fans.

bill

[Jan-Erik Söderholm]

Den 2020-04-18 kl. 20:29, skrev Bill Gunshannon:
> On 4/18/20 1:10 PM, John E. Malmberg wrote:
>> On 4/18/2020 9:11 AM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> My disappointment has been abated.  Not only did I find a laptop
>>> with 64bit Win7 but it turns out it will run under Wine on Ubuntu
>>> Linux.
>>
>> Can you let us know the details on how to get FreeAXP running under Wine?
>>
>> This is the first report I have seen of a success from the people who
>> have attempted it.
>>
>
> The basic part was easy.  I merely ran the installer under Wine.
> It installed and even created shortcuts on my Desktop.  I can't
> seem to get the Config Editor to work.  It starts up but won't
> save the changes.  Complains about the names of totally unrelated
> files like the .log and .nvr and refuses to write out the new
> config.

Had the same issues. Had to adjust the file paths in the cfg file
and that, as I recall, the config tool worked.

[Dave Froble]

On 4/18/2020 4:41 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>
>
> Working on the Wine installation. So far so good.
> Created a user.
> Gave him a home directory on a separate disk from the system stuff.
> (Haven't figured out how to mount it automatically. Sure I knew
> at one point, but it's been a while.)

If you're talking about VMS, place commands in SYSTARTUP_VMS.COM to
mount the disk(s) and define logical names for the disks. If it's
defining the disks for the emulator, haven't a clue.

$! Mount public disks here
$
$ wso " mount public disks"
$ mount /system /noassist DKA100: DISK1
$! mount /system /noassist DKA200: DISK2
$! mount /system /noassist DKA300: DISK3

and

$! Define disk logical names
$
$ wso " define disk names"
$ define /system /exec DISK0 DKA0:
$ define /system /exec DISK1 DKA100:
$ define /system /exec DISK2 DKA200:
$ define /system /exec DISK3 DKA300:
$ define /system /exec DISK4 DKA400:

> Edited a program.
> Compiled, linked and ran it.
>
> Now to try something serious. :-)
>
> Oh yeah, haven't crashed it yet so I guess it's going to be stable
> running on Linux for those of us who are not MicroSoft fans.
>
> bill
>
>

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: da...@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486

[Bill Gunshannon]

On 4/18/20 7:30 PM, Dave Froble wrote:
> On 4/18/2020 4:41 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>
>>
>> Working on the Wine installation.  So far so good.
>> Created a user.
>> Gave him a home directory on a separate disk from the system stuff.
>> (Haven't figured out how to mount it automatically.  Sure I knew
>> at one point, but it's been a while.)
>
> If you're talking about VMS, place commands in SYSTARTUP_VMS.COM to

This is what I needed. I tried putting it in STARTUP.COM but it didn't
work.

What's the purpose of the defines? The last parameter to the
mount command creates the logical name. And I don't really
need them anyway because the user (me, there's only one) gets
put there when he logs in.

> mount the disk(s) and define logical names for the disks.  If it's
> defining the disks for the emulator, haven't a clue.
>
> $! Mount public disks here
> $
> $ wso "  mount public disks"
> $ mount /system /noassist DKA100: DISK1
> $! mount /system /noassist DKA200: DISK2
> $! mount /system /noassist DKA300: DISK3
>
> and
>
> $! Define disk logical names
> $
> $ wso "  define disk names"
> $ define /system /exec DISK0 DKA0:
> $ define /system /exec DISK1 DKA100:
> $ define /system /exec DISK2 DKA200:
> $ define /system /exec DISK3 DKA300:
> $ define /system /exec DISK4 DKA400:
>

bill

[Dave Froble]

On 4/18/2020 8:21 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> On 4/18/20 7:30 PM, Dave Froble wrote:
>> On 4/18/2020 4:41 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Working on the Wine installation. So far so good.
>>> Created a user.
>>> Gave him a home directory on a separate disk from the system stuff.
>>> (Haven't figured out how to mount it automatically. Sure I knew
>>> at one point, but it's been a while.)
>>
>> If you're talking about VMS, place commands in SYSTARTUP_VMS.COM to
>
> This is what I needed. I tried putting it in STARTUP.COM but it didn't
> work.
>
> What's the purpose of the defines?

If nothing else, I get a logical for the system disk.

It's just something I've done from way back. Ya know, there could be a
time when you have another disk, and want it to be know as perhaps
DISK1. Lots of flexibility there.

> The last parameter to the
> mount command creates the logical name. And I don't really
> need them anyway because the user (me, there's only one) gets
> put there when he logs in.

Learn good habits early ....

>> mount the disk(s) and define logical names for the disks. If it's
>> defining the disks for the emulator, haven't a clue.
>>
>> $! Mount public disks here
>> $
>> $ wso " mount public disks"
>> $ mount /system /noassist DKA100: DISK1
>> $! mount /system /noassist DKA200: DISK2
>> $! mount /system /noassist DKA300: DISK3
>>
>> and
>>
>> $! Define disk logical names
>> $
>> $ wso " define disk names"
>> $ define /system /exec DISK0 DKA0:
>> $ define /system /exec DISK1 DKA100:
>> $ define /system /exec DISK2 DKA200:
>> $ define /system /exec DISK3 DKA300:
>> $ define /system /exec DISK4 DKA400:
>>
>
> bill
>

[Robert A. Brooks]

On 4/18/2020 8:43 PM, Dave Froble wrote:
> On 4/18/2020 8:21 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>> On 4/18/20 7:30 PM, Dave Froble wrote:
>>> On 4/18/2020 4:41 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>> What's the purpose of the defines?
>
> If nothing else, I get a logical for the system disk.
>
> It's just something I've done from way back.  Ya know, there could be a time
> when you have another disk, and want it to be know as perhaps DISK1.  Lots of
> flexibility there.
>
>>  The last parameter to the
>> mount command creates the logical name.  And I don't really
>> need them anyway because the user (me, there's only one) gets
>> put there when he logs in.
>
> Learn good habits early ....

Even if you omit that optional param to the MOUNT command, you
get the logical name DISK$<volume label> (probably only if
mounted /SYSTEM, although I have not checked that).

--
-- Rob

[Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)]

In article <hg1jsf...@mid.individual.net>, Bill Gunshannon
<bill.gu...@gmail.com> writes:

> What's the purpose of the defines? The last parameter to the

> mount command creates the logical name. And I don't really
> need them anyway because the user (me, there's only one) gets
> put there when he logs in.

They are needed if you want logical names other than the automatic ones.
For example, DISK$USER, DISK$SOFT, DISK$SYSTEM, DISK$SCRATCH.

[Jan-Erik Söderholm]

Den 2020-04-19 kl. 01:30, skrev Dave Froble:
> On 4/18/2020 4:41 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>
>>
>> Working on the Wine installation.  So far so good.
>> Created a user.
>> Gave him a home directory on a separate disk from the system stuff.
>> (Haven't figured out how to mount it automatically.  Sure I knew
>> at one point, but it's been a while.)
>
> If you're talking about VMS, place commands in SYSTARTUP_VMS.COM to mount
> the disk(s) and define logical names for the disks.

Yes, Just as usual.

> If it's defining the disks for the emulator, haven't a clue.

Not sure what that refers to. VMS in it self doesn't know that it
is running in an emulator. So what does "defining the disks for the
emulator" mean?

The container files in the host OS are specified to the emulator in
the emulator config (.cfg) file. That is before the emulator is even
started (that is, before you have an AlphaServer SRM console) and even
less before VMS is booted, of course.

[Bill Gunshannon]

I'll let it go. I still don't see the reason but it must be a
VMS thing that I never had a need for. I mount with the command:
MOUNT/SYSTEM DKA100: USER USER:
so I have the logical USER: if I need it, but I don't see a
likely need at this point.

bill

[Bill Gunshannon]

OK, I see that. But why would one omit the optional param from
the mount command only to create it with the define command? As
for /SYSTEM, without that no one else can access (or even see)
the mounted filesystem.

bill

[Bill Gunshannon]

On 4/19/20 6:13 AM, Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote:
> Den 2020-04-19 kl. 01:30, skrev Dave Froble:
>> On 4/18/2020 4:41 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Working on the Wine installation.  So far so good.
>>> Created a user.
>>> Gave him a home directory on a separate disk from the system stuff.
>>> (Haven't figured out how to mount it automatically.  Sure I knew
>>> at one point, but it's been a while.)
>>
>> If you're talking about VMS, place commands in SYSTARTUP_VMS.COM to
>> mount the disk(s) and define logical names for the disks.
>
> Yes, Just as usual.

Maybe "as usual" to every day VMS administrators, but some of us
haven't really had that task as a day to day job for over a decade.

I used SYS$SYSTEM:STARTUP.COM and it didn't work. But, having gone
back and reviewed what I did I think the problem was that prior to
my editing the file it ended with an EXIT. When I edited it I put
my entry at the very end, you guessed it, after the EXIT. So, my
first try might have worked but it doesn't matter now and I am not
going to try moving it. :-)

Just to let people know, I did manage to crash the emulator. I played
with the config app and finally got it to save a version of the cfg with
my desired changes in it. And the emulator stopped working. So, I
think I will stick to hand editing it for any changes I want to make.
I now have two disks and two serial ports (so I can leave the console
running while I work from somewhere else). Next step will be to try and
get networking to work. Of course, I haven't figured that part out for
the Windows install yet either, so it is still a real crap shoot.

bill

[Dave Froble]

I'm lazy. If I have to type more than 5 characters for a disk name,
it's a hardship.

:-)

[Dave Froble]

That's fine. VMS allows one to be flexible. The environment can be
tailored to your preferences.

[Arne Vajhøj]

On 4/19/2020 8:32 AM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> On 4/19/20 6:13 AM, Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote:
>> Den 2020-04-19 kl. 01:30, skrev Dave Froble:
>>> On 4/18/2020 4:41 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>>> Gave him a home directory on a separate disk from the system stuff.
>>>> (Haven't figured out how to mount it automatically.  Sure I knew
>>>> at one point, but it's been a while.)
>>>
>>> If you're talking about VMS, place commands in SYSTARTUP_VMS.COM to
>>> mount the disk(s) and define logical names for the disks.
>>
>> Yes, Just as usual.
>
> Maybe "as usual" to every day VMS administrators, but some of us
> haven't really had that task as a day to day job for over a decade.
>
> I used SYS$SYSTEM:STARTUP.COM and it didn't work.  But, having gone
> back and reviewed what I did I think the problem was that prior to
> my editing the file it ended with an EXIT.  When I edited it I put
> my entry at the very end, you guessed it, after the EXIT.  So, my
> first try might have worked  but it doesn't matter now and I am not
> going to try moving it.  :-)

SYS$SYSTEM:STARTUP.COM do not edit

SYS$MANAGER:SYSTARTUP.COM or SYS$MANAGER:SYSTARTUP_V5.COM or
SYS$MANAGER:SYSTARTUP_VMS.COM (depending on VMS version) do edit

Arne

[Hans Bachner]

Bill Gunshannon schrieb am 19.04.2020 um 14:32:
> On 4/19/20 6:13 AM, Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote:
>> Den 2020-04-19 kl. 01:30, skrev Dave Froble:

>>> [...]

>>>
>>> If you're talking about VMS, place commands in SYSTARTUP_VMS.COM to
>>> mount the disk(s) and define logical names for the disks.
>>
>> Yes, Just as usual.
>
> Maybe "as usual" to every day VMS administrators, but some of us
> haven't really had that task as a day to day job for over a decade.
>
> I used SYS$SYSTEM:STARTUP.COM and it didn't work.  But, having gone
> back and reviewed what I did I think the problem was that prior to
> my editing the file it ended with an EXIT.  When I edited it I put
> my entry at the very end, you guessed it, after the EXIT.  So, my
> first try might have worked  but it doesn't matter now and I am not
> going to try moving it.  :-)

You should (almost) never touch SYS$SYSTEM:STARTUP.COM - this file is
subject to change with every OpenVMS upgrade or even patch installation.

For site specific additions, you use SYS$MANAGER:SYSTARTUP_VMS.COM which
will be preserved.

And take care, depending on your version of VMS just adding commands to
the end of the file may not work either because there is an EXIT command
further up before some subroutine definitions.

Have fun,
Hans.

>[...]

[Bill Gunshannon]

No PASCAL Compiler? :-(

bill

[Arne Vajhøj]

On 4/19/2020 10:37 AM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> No PASCAL Compiler?  :-(

That is weird.

The PASCAL verb is there, but the executable is missing.

Look like an Ooooppss.

Arne

[Bill Gunshannon]

Not sure it was an accident. I find that on the PDP-11 the verbs
are all there after an install but the layered products have to be
added later if you actually plan on using them.

is there Bliss for users on the Alpha or only for engineering? No
verb for that one so no compiler I assume.

bill

[Arne Vajhøj]

On 4/19/2020 11:17 AM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> On 4/19/20 10:46 AM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> On 4/19/2020 10:37 AM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>> No PASCAL Compiler?  :-(
>>
>> That is weird.
>>
>> The PASCAL verb is there, but the executable is missing.
>>
>> Look like an Ooooppss.
>

> Not sure it was an accident.  I find that on the PDP-11 the verbs
> are all there after an install but the layered products have to be
> added later if you actually plan on using them.

On VMS it get installed with the compiler.

PASCAL.CLD is in the .B saveset.

> is there Bliss for users on the Alpha or only for engineering?  No
> verb for that one so no compiler I assume.

Bliss is available from the Freeware CD.

https://www.digiater.nl/openvms/freeware/v80/bliss/

Arne

[Arne Vajhøj]

And yes - that install the BLISS verb.

Just tested. My only problem now is that I don't know
Bliss. :-)

Arne

[Arne Vajhøj]

Trying.

STARLET.L32;1 [SYSTEM] (RWED,RWED,RE,)
STARLET.L64;1 [SYSTEM] (RWED,RWED,RE,)

Hmmm.


Arne

[Bill Gunshannon]

Well, I thought is anyone could break it, it would be me.

First a curiosity and then the problem.

Note that the last file in the directory listing is out of place
based on its date.

$ dir USER:[USER.BILL.KERMIT.C]/size/date

Directory USER:[USER.BILL.KERMIT.C]

CKCASC.H;1 6 19-APR-2020 12:30:59.64
CKCDEB.H;1 297 19-APR-2020 12:31:18.08
CKCFN2.C;1 205 19-APR-2020 12:58:53.47
CKCFN3.C;1 158 19-APR-2020 13:12:53.47
CKCFNS.C;1 437 19-APR-2020 13:23:47.17
CKCFTP.C;1 1160 19-APR-2020 16:34:13.88
CKCKER.H;1 95 19-APR-2020 17:03:23.62
CKCLIB.C;1 190 19-APR-2020 17:17:15.86
CKCLIB.H;1 8 19-APR-2020 17:17:43.15
CKCMAI.C;1 252 19-APR-2020 17:32:39.74
CKCMDB.C;1 19 19-APR-2020 17:34:17.88
CKCNET.C;1 920 19-APR-2020 18:34:36.20
CKCNET.H;1 88 19-APR-2020 18:40:55.25
CKCPRO.C;1 231 19-APR-2020 18:56:51.42
CKCSIG.H;1 13 19-APR-2020 19:21:15.06
CKCSSL.H;1 12 19-APR-2020 19:21:47.86
CKCSYM.H;1 1 19-APR-2020 19:21:50.36
CK_CRP.C;1 345 19-APR-2020 19:20:20.22

Total of 18 files, 4437 blocks.


Now the problem.....

As you can see I am trying to get all the files over to build a
version of CKermit on the system. (I am not holding out hope
for getting networking up.) I started by using "CREATE" and
then shoving the files one at a time down the telnet connection
to the second serial port. I get about 3 files and the serial
port dies. Only way to get it back is to shut the system down
and bring it back up. Next I tried the same trick using "EDIT"
instead of "CREATE". Slightly better. I get 5 or 6 files but
then the same thing happens. Anybody ever see this kind of
behavior? Anybody got a suggestion for a better way to move
60 text files over to the emulated machine?


bill

[John Reagan]

There is an ancient PASCAL.CLD that is shipped inside the system. It dates back to the VAX Pascal V2 days when SET COMMAND wasn't there. No current compiler would work with it. You need the one installed by the kit.

[Arne Vajhøj]

On 4/19/2020 8:27 PM, John Reagan wrote:
> On Sunday, April 19, 2020 at 11:41:26 AM UTC-4, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> On 4/19/2020 11:17 AM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>> On 4/19/20 10:46 AM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>> On 4/19/2020 10:37 AM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>>>> No PASCAL Compiler? :-(
>>>>
>>>> That is weird.
>>>>
>>>> The PASCAL verb is there, but the executable is missing.
>>>>
>>>> Look like an Ooooppss.
>>>
>>> Not sure it was an accident. I find that on the PDP-11 the
>>> verbs are all there after an install but the layered products
>>> have to be added later if you actually plan on using them.
>>
>> On VMS it get installed with the compiler.
>>
>> PASCAL.CLD is in the .B saveset.
>>
>>> is there Bliss for users on the Alpha or only for engineering?
>>> No verb for that one so no compiler I assume.
>>
>> Bliss is available from the Freeware CD.
>>
>> https://www.digiater.nl/openvms/freeware/v80/bliss/
>

> There is an ancient PASCAL.CLD that is shipped inside the system. It
> dates back to the VAX Pascal V2 days when SET COMMAND wasn't there.
> No current compiler would work with it. You need the one installed
> by the kit.

Ah.

So it is not an ooops.

I stand corrected.

But that of course raises the question: why is Pascal not in that
image when all other compilers are??

Arne

[John Reagan]

They need to be WORLD:RE.

Normally the BLISS installation kit compiles the STARLET.REQ,.R64 into STARLET.L32,.L64, respectively.

And here's a little BLISS program to try

$ type hw.bli
module test (main = r) =
begin
library 'sys$library:starlet';
external routine lib$put_output;

routine print_it (p1) : novalue =
begin

local faobuf : alias vector [132,byte],
faodsc : block [8,byte],
i : initial(3);

select .p1 of
set
[0]: i = 1;
[1]: i = .p1 + 3;
[2]: i = .i + .p1 + 17;
[OTHERWISE]: i = 42;
tes;
faodsc[dsc$w_length] = %allocation(faobuf);
faodsc[dsc$a_pointer]= faobuf;

$fao(%ascid 'The value of I is !UL', faodsc[dsc$w_length], faodsc, .i);
lib$put_output(faodsc);
end;

routine r =
begin

incr idx from 0 to 3 do
print_it(.idx);

return ss$_normal
end;
end
eludom

$ bliss hw
$ link hw
$ run hw
The value of I is 1
The value of I is 4
The value of I is 22
The value of I is 42

[Arne Vajhøj]

On 4/19/2020 8:20 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> Note that the last file in the directory listing is out of place
> based on its date.
>
> $ dir USER:[USER.BILL.KERMIT.C]/size/date
>
> Directory USER:[USER.BILL.KERMIT.C]
>
> CKCASC.H;1                    6  19-APR-2020 12:30:59.64
> CKCDEB.H;1                  297  19-APR-2020 12:31:18.08
> CKCFN2.C;1                  205  19-APR-2020 12:58:53.47
> CKCFN3.C;1                  158  19-APR-2020 13:12:53.47
> CKCFNS.C;1                  437  19-APR-2020 13:23:47.17
> CKCFTP.C;1                 1160  19-APR-2020 16:34:13.88
> CKCKER.H;1                   95  19-APR-2020 17:03:23.62
> CKCLIB.C;1                  190  19-APR-2020 17:17:15.86
> CKCLIB.H;1                    8  19-APR-2020 17:17:43.15
> CKCMAI.C;1                  252  19-APR-2020 17:32:39.74
> CKCMDB.C;1                   19  19-APR-2020 17:34:17.88
> CKCNET.C;1                  920  19-APR-2020 18:34:36.20
> CKCNET.H;1                   88  19-APR-2020 18:40:55.25
> CKCPRO.C;1                  231  19-APR-2020 18:56:51.42
> CKCSIG.H;1                   13  19-APR-2020 19:21:15.06
> CKCSSL.H;1                   12  19-APR-2020 19:21:47.86
> CKCSYM.H;1                    1  19-APR-2020 19:21:50.36
> CK_CRP.C;1                  345  19-APR-2020 19:20:20.22
>
> Total of 18 files, 4437 blocks.

It looks perfectly in place to me. '_' comes after 'C'.
And /DATE only tell DIR to show time not to sort by it.

Arne

[Bill Gunshannon]

Yeah, I figured that out. I thought that DATE would also sort
them by date but it doesn't.

bill

[Arne Vajhøj]

On 4/19/2020 8:32 PM, John Reagan wrote:
> On Sunday, April 19, 2020 at 1:09:04 PM UTC-4, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> STARLET.L32;1 [SYSTEM] (RWED,RWED,RE,)
>> STARLET.L64;1 [SYSTEM] (RWED,RWED,RE,)
>>
>> Hmmm.

> They need to be WORLD:RE.

I figured that out.

:-)

> Normally the BLISS installation kit compiles the STARLET.REQ,.R64 into STARLET.L32,.L64, respectively.

It may have here as well, but for whatever reason the protection was
as shown.

I started with hello world.

:-)

Arne

[Arne Vajhøj]

On 4/19/2020 8:20 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:

> As you can see I am trying to get all the files over to build a
> version of CKermit on the system.  (I am not holding out hope
> for getting networking up.)  I started by using "CREATE" and
> then shoving the files one at a time down the telnet connection
> to the second serial port.  I get about 3 files and the serial
> port dies.  Only way to get it back is to shut the system down
> and bring it back up.  Next I tried the same trick using "EDIT"
> instead of "CREATE".  Slightly better.  I get 5 or 6 files but
> then the same thing happens.  Anybody ever see this kind of
> behavior?  Anybody got a suggestion for a better way to move
> 60 text files over to the emulated machine?

Do you use:

$ set terminal /ttsync /hostsync

?

Arne

[Bill Gunshannon]

No, but I will try that next time it dies.

bill

[Dave Froble]

Nope. You would need my DIRSORT.BAS and associated routines to do that.

[Andrew Brehm]

On 16/04/2020 16:39, Tom Adams wrote:
>
> I am wondering if there is any configuration that would work. Any way to the the virtual VMS system to network with anything.
>
> I set it up on another Windows 10 system that I have and I can get networking there either. I tried the Avanti approach there.
>
> There is a step in the Avanti procedure where you are suppose to stop and start MSIPCAP. But it refuses to stop. I rebooted my system hoping that that would have the desired effect of stopping and starting the service.
>

I am wondering how useful this can be to you.

But I installed FreeAXP on several different Windows machines, physical and virtual. And on all physical machines their proposed network setup ultimately worked, but only when I followed their instructions to the letter. Several times I thought there were superfluous steps or steps I could replace with other steps but it always failed with the exact symptoms you observed.

Are you sure you absolutely and really and completely followed the instructions to the point and comma? Because that's what got me a few times!

My setup at the moment is a HP PC with one physical NIC and FreeAXP runs nicely on it. The NIC is connected to a switch and the switch is connected to lots of other PCs and servers and a router.

I can also stop and start and restart MSIPCAP. The service is a KernelDriver and behaves a bit differently from other services. You might want to check its security descriptor, maybe it bars you from accessing it?

$sd=(sc.exe sdshow msipcap)[1]
$helper=[wmiclass]"win32_securitydescriptorhelper"
$win32sd=$helper.SDDLToWin32SD($sd).descriptor
$win32sd.dacl|%{$_.trustee.name;$_.accessmask}
SYSTEM
131581
Administrators
983551
INTERACTIVE
131469
SERVICE
131469

I don't know if I modified the ACL but those are the settings on my PC and when I am an administrator I can start and stop the service.

Good luck!

--
Andrew Brehm

[Andrew Brehm]

On 17/04/2020 20:10, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>
> All this talk made me curious.  I grabbed the student distribution
> and tried it.  Sadly, if you don't have the latest and greatest from
> MicroSoft apparently you don't get to  play.  No Linux, tried Wine
> but it won't run.  Wouldn't run on Windows 7 so I probably won't
> even bother trying on XP or Vista.  Somewhat disappointed.
>

The latest and greatest? Windows 7 is from 2009. It's been 11 years. Don't try anything much older. No CP/M either.

Are you running 64 bit Windows? I think FreeAXP doesn't work on x86, only x64.



--
Andrew Brehm

[Bill Gunshannon]

On 4/20/20 9:58 AM, Andrew Brehm wrote:
> On 17/04/2020 20:10, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>
>> All this talk made me curious.  I grabbed the student distribution
>> and tried it.  Sadly, if you don't have the latest and greatest from
>> MicroSoft apparently you don't get to  play.  No Linux, tried Wine
>> but it won't run.  Wouldn't run on Windows 7 so I probably won't
>> even bother trying on XP or Vista.  Somewhat disappointed.
>>
>
> The latest and greatest? Windows 7 is from 2009. It's been 11 years.

It only EOSed this year.

> Don't try anything much older. No CP/M either.
>
> Are you running 64 bit Windows? I think FreeAXP doesn't work on x86,
> only x64.

I run 64bit OSes on 64 bit machines and 32 bit on 32 bit machines.
I didn't throw out everything I had just because Dell came out with
something new.

I don't have any interest in supporting Bill Gates lifestyle. I do
not expect to ever buy another MicroSoft OS.

bill

[Jan-Erik Söderholm]

Note that Bill Gates only owns 1.3 % of Microsoft today.
Still a decent amount of money, but anyway… :-)

[Simon Clubley]

On 2020-04-19, Bill Gunshannon <bill.gu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Now the problem.....
>
> As you can see I am trying to get all the files over to build a
> version of CKermit on the system. (I am not holding out hope
> for getting networking up.) I started by using "CREATE" and
> then shoving the files one at a time down the telnet connection
> to the second serial port. I get about 3 files and the serial
> port dies. Only way to get it back is to shut the system down
> and bring it back up. Next I tried the same trick using "EDIT"
> instead of "CREATE". Slightly better. I get 5 or 6 files but
> then the same thing happens. Anybody ever see this kind of
> behavior? Anybody got a suggestion for a better way to move
> 60 text files over to the emulated machine?
>

Try running C-Kermit on Linux and use the C-Kermit transmit command
to send the files to VMS. You can specify a suitable delay between
each transmitted line so you don't get a buffer overrun.

You are probably better off using create, not edit, to receive the
files if you try this.

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

[Bill Gunshannon]

On 4/20/20 3:15 PM, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2020-04-19, Bill Gunshannon <bill.gu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Now the problem.....
>>
>> As you can see I am trying to get all the files over to build a
>> version of CKermit on the system. (I am not holding out hope
>> for getting networking up.) I started by using "CREATE" and
>> then shoving the files one at a time down the telnet connection
>> to the second serial port. I get about 3 files and the serial
>> port dies. Only way to get it back is to shut the system down
>> and bring it back up. Next I tried the same trick using "EDIT"
>> instead of "CREATE". Slightly better. I get 5 or 6 files but
>> then the same thing happens. Anybody ever see this kind of
>> behavior? Anybody got a suggestion for a better way to move
>> 60 text files over to the emulated machine?
>>
>
> Try running C-Kermit on Linux and use the C-Kermit transmit command
> to send the files to VMS. You can specify a suitable delay between
> each transmitted line so you don't get a buffer overrun.
>
> You are probably better off using create, not edit, to receive the
> files if you try this.
>

That's what I am doing but at the rate it is running it will take weeks.
I have stopped for the moment while I try to get the network up.

bill

[Arne Vajhøj]

May I suggest a plan C?

:-)

Go into the Alpha emulators configuration utility and attach
an emulated CD drive to an actual CD drive on the PC.

Arne

[Bill Gunshannon]

That's a possibility, too. But I would rather have networking. :-)
And, I don't know yet if that piece will work under wine any more than
networking (which according to the wine docs should just work!! I am
upgrading to the latest and greatest Wine version, we'll see what
happens. If I get this to work I guess I'll have to document it.)

bill

[Andrew Brehm]

You not throwing out old tech and and software requiring new tech is not easy to bring into agreement.

FreeAXP requires AMD64 and it's not Microsoft's fault.

I think my last x86 PC that didn't support the new 64 bit Long Mode is from 2006. I might have had a cheap Windows tablet that was 32 bit only.


--
Andrew Brehm

[Bill Gunshannon]

On 4/21/20 7:27 AM, Andrew Brehm wrote:
> On 20/04/2020 16:17, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>> On 4/20/20 9:58 AM, Andrew Brehm wrote:
>>> On 17/04/2020 20:10, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>>>
>>> Are you running 64 bit Windows? I think FreeAXP doesn't work on x86,
>>> only x64.
>>
>> I run 64bit OSes on 64 bit machines and 32 bit on 32 bit machines.
>> I didn't throw out everything I had just because Dell came out with
>> something new.
>>
>> I don't have any interest in supporting Bill Gates lifestyle.  I do
>> not expect to ever buy another MicroSoft OS.
>>
>
> You not throwing out old tech and and software requiring new tech is not
> easy to bring into agreement.

Why not? Even the oldest can run Linux. I have an old Gateway laptop
that can't even take a gig of ram that works just fine on Puppy Linux.

>
> FreeAXP requires AMD64 and it's not Microsoft's fault.

Yes, it does. But, most of mine are running Linux. It can do
everything that Microsoft OSes can do (except run proprietary
programs from people who insist on kissing Microsoft's ass.)
And, usually does it faster.

>
> I think my last x86 PC that didn't support the new 64 bit Long Mode is
> from 2006. I might have had a cheap Windows tablet that was 32 bit only.

Like I said, I have a very old Gateway laptop and it still works
just fine. But, even if I was inclined to pay the price, there
is no version of Windows that would run on it.

You seem to have misunderstood the group your are posting in.
I still run VAX and even PDP-11's. And I mean real hardware,
not just emulators. Some of us don't throw out hardware just
because something new was introduced. :-)

bill

[Bill Gunshannon]

Well, no joy trying to get networking to run on linux under wine,
but no surprise as I haven't gotten it working under Windows either.

But, here's my real question. Does VMS support any kind of serial
networking? PPP, SLIP or even DECNET.


bill

[Steven Schweda]

> [...] Does VMS support any kind of serial

> networking? PPP, SLIP or even DECNET.

TCPIP HELP SET INTERFACE /SERIAL_DEVICE

I assume that the TCPIP docs say more.

A while ago (before 256Kb/s DSL), I used (VAX-only)
Asynchronous DECnet with 9600b/s modems for my VAXstation
2000. As I recall, IP was tunneled through that path.

[Robert A. Brooks]

DDCMP to the rescue.

--
-- Rob

[already...@yahoo.com]

On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 at 3:50:26 PM UTC+3, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>
> You seem to have misunderstood the group your are posting in.
> I still run VAX and even PDP-11's. And I mean real hardware,
> not just emulators. Some of us don't throw out hardware just
> because something new was introduced. :-)
>
> bill

https://epdf.pub/queue/asimov-isaac-sally.html
Somehow, it came to my mind.

[Tom Adams]

On Friday, April 17, 2020 at 1:58:22 PM UTC-4, s.c...@ieee.org wrote:
> On Friday, April 17, 2020 at 9:33:37 AM UTC-4, Tom Adams wrote:
> > On Saturday, April 4, 2020 at 8:54:28 AM UTC-4, Volker Halle wrote:
> > > Tom,
> > >
> > > can you ping the laptop IP address from OpenVMS running in your FreeAXP instance ? And vice versa ? If so, you should be all set…
> > >
> > > Start your X-Server on your laptop and issue the following in your OpenVMS system:
> > >
> > > $ SET DISPLAY/CREATE/NODE=ip.address.of.laptop/TRANSPORT=TCPIP
> > >
> > > Then test X-Windows with:
> > >
> > > $ RUN DECW$EXAMPLES:ICO
> > >
> > > you should get a rotating 'thing' on your laptop's X-Windows display.
> > >
> > > Volker.
> >
> > The problem is that I can't get the ping. I am stuck at that point. I can't find a configuration that provides a working network for the virtual vms system.
>
> Does the hardwired NIC have an IP address assigned it it? You can find this out from the command interface c:\ ipconfig
>
> C:\Users\Steve>ipconfig
>
> Windows IP Configuration
>
>
> Ethernet adapter Local Area Connection:
>
> Connection-specific DNS Suffix . :
> Link-local IPv6 Address . . . . . : fe80::c7a:b8cc:
> IPv4 Address. . . . . . . . . . . : 192.168.x.x
> Subnet Mask . . . . . . . . . . . : 255.255.x.x
> Default Gateway . . . . . . . . . : 192.168.x.x
>
> If it does have an IP address can you ping the address from the windows machine/from another windows machine?
>
> If you can verify that the Windows box can communicate through that interface (NIC) then take the next steps to connect up the virtual nic with a bridge and the appropriate settings for the nics.
>
> I apologize if this is too simple/redundant for you but I'm taking you at your word that you don't have a lot of networking experience.

Nothing is to simple for me. I think I did that exercise. I tried to follow the advice in the Virtual Alpha's User Guide for Avanti version Version 2.6 (2015). It was in section 10.3:

10.3 NETWORKING AVANTI ON A SYSTEM WITH A SINGLE NIC Assigning Avanti its own NIC on a single NIC host system is feasible using a virtual NIC. OpenVPN is one way to create a virtual NIC under Windows. The following steps describe how to create a virtual NIC using OpenVPN 2.1.1: Assigning Avanti its own NIC on a single NIC host system is feasible using a virtual NIC. OpenVPN is one way to create a virtual NIC under Windows. The following steps describe how to create a virtual NIC using OpenVPN 2.1.1:
1) Download the OpenVPN 2.1.1 installation package for Windows from http://openvpn.net/index.php/open-source/downloads.html 1) Download the OpenVPN 2.1.1 installation package for Windows from http://openvpn.net/index.php/open-source/downloads.html
2) Run the installation package, selecting only the “TAP Virtual Ethernet Adapter”.
3) Refresh the system's Network Properties. A new network connection with “TAP-Win32 Adapter V9” as the description should now be available. Rename this virtual adapter to “Avanti NIC”.
4) Go to the virtual “Avanti NIC” properties; choose “Configure”; and on the “Advanced” tab, set “Media Status” to “Always Connected”.
5) Select both the physical NIC that is connected to the outside world and the virtual “Avanti NIC”, right click, and choose “Bridge connections”.
6) From a cmd window, run “NET STOP MSIPCAP” followed by “NET START MSIPCAP” to restart the Avanti PCAP driver.
7) Run the Avanti configuration utility and choose the virtual “Avanti NIC” as the network adapter. This configuration allows the creation of network connections between the virtual Alpha, the host system, and the external network

I did this on a Windows 10 system using the ethernet card that was wired to communicate with my home router. I could ping the card via another windows computer. After I added it to the virtual bridge, I could ping the bridge but not the card (if I recall correctly, I could redo the experiment easily).

But I did not use ipconfig to look at the card address. I used the windows Network and Internet Settings > View your network properties. (Also can see it when you go to change adapter settings.)

I could never get this to approach to work.

(BTW, later I decided that my systems don;t count as single nic systems since they also have wifi. But, I am not sure of this, and I not sure if it matters.)

PS: If I at all sound like I know anything about Windows networking, it is only because I have been mucking around for the last week trying to solve this problem and always failing. Constant failure does not build one's confidence that they know what they are doing.

[Tom Adams]

I figured out the problem with MSIPCAP, it will not stop if a virtual alpha was running. I got desperate enough to read the manual and even read parts of the manual that did not apply to my specific problem (always the last resort) and I found out how to properly shutdown a virtual alpha. But the manual said that rebooting was as good as a shut and restart of MSIPCAP and I had done that when MSIPCAP would not stop. And in further mucking around, I discovered that you don't see added virtual adapters when to try to configure the NIC in the Avanti interface until you cycle MSIPCAP.

But, your suggestion to go over the procedure to ensure that I did not miss anything is a good suggestion. I will try that.

[s.ca...@ieee.org]

I should have also asked you about the version of FreeAXP/Avanti that you are using. The latest version has some updated networking suggestions. Since you are on a laptop, it is also necessary to be certain that it isn't a Samsung laptop using Marvell Yukon chip set, as that NIC has known problems with FreeAXP. (That information is in the release notes for FreeAXP).

If you are certain that you have a good IP connection from Windows through the hardwired NIC then go ahead and turn off all of the NIC offloading features. These are many and unfortunately they are named differently by the different NIC manufacturers (and versions of Windows) but I list of them that I look for:
• Adaptive interframe spacing
• Flow control
• Interrupt moderation
• Interrupt moderation rate
• Ipv4 checksum offload
• Jumbo packet
• Large send offload
• Disable Priority and VLAN
• TCP checksum offload
• UDP checksum offload

You also want the NIC to be in promiscuous (or forced compatibility) mode. The PCAP software is supposed to do this but you can confirm at the command line (run as administrator): netsh bridge show adapter.

[Jan-Erik Söderholm]

And FWIW...

I also recall that I actually_

- First download and install the VSI kit.
- Saved the IMG container file and CHG config file.
- Uninstalled the VSI kit.
- Installed the free Avanti kit.
- Started up Avanti using the saved VSI files.

I do not remember why, but as I recall (this was last summer)
this solved some networking issues...

Regards,
Jan-Erik.

[Bill Gunshannon]

On 4/24/20 3:21 AM, Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote:
>
> And FWIW...
>
> I also recall that I actually_
>
> - First download and install the VSI kit.
> - Saved the IMG container file and CHG config file.
> - Uninstalled the VSI kit.
> - Installed the free Avanti kit.
> - Started up Avanti using the saved VSI files.
>
> I do not remember why, but as I recall (this was last summer)
> this solved some networking issues...

Maybe I'll give this a try.

My luck so far has been all bad.

The VSI Kit installed on:
Windows 7 laptop: No Network
Linux Wine: No Network
Hyper-V Server: won't install (something about not enough cores)
ES40: No Network

I don't mean to knock it and I think the concept is a great idea,
but do you really think anyone trying this is going to go to the
trouble we do to get it to work?

bill

[Jan-Erik Söderholm]

OK.

Last evening I was starting up my laptop I used last summer.
But due to some updates I had to postpone the check-up to today.

I’ll come back with a write-up of my configuration.

There was also some things about getting another piece of
software from some other place. I’ll try to find that also.
I think it had something to do with the the bridge-driver...

Jan-Erik.

[Jan-Erik Söderholm]

Also see my and others posts around this named "Enabling network in
the "student" kit..." from around 11'th to 13'th July 2019.

A quote from 11'th July 2019:

>> Has *anyone* get the network running from the Student Kit?
>>
>> [...]
>>
>> Jan-Erik.
>
> Yes I did. As someone else suggested elsewhere in this thread, you need
to download the latest "official" FreeAXP kit (3.0.0.620 at this time) from
<http://www.migrationspecialties.com/FreeAXP.html#Kits> and install this.
Then install the VSI student kit which will uninstall the FreeAXP kit and
replace it with its newer version (3.1.0.627), but networking will be
available at this point.
>
> This works fine on a Windows Server 2016, so I assume it will work on
Windows 10 as well.
>
> Hope this helps,
> Hans.

OK, installing the 3.0.0.620 kit and then reinstalling the VSI kit
got the device to show up in the config tool. Just clicked "OK" both
times to remove the other one. The device I selected in the config
tool is called "WiFi", same name as ipconfig reports. The laptop
is not wired.

Then I had to switch EWA0_MODE to FastFD (was some single duplex mode)
and then the VMS environment is visible with PING at least. Both from
the local Win10 laptop and from another laptop on the same subnet.


And then from 13'th July 2019:


Right, for whoever is still listening...

Got the network running. Some points and I'm not sure I remembered all...

- Since this is a single-NIC installation (and as I wrote before, most
probably are) I installed the TAP part from the latest OpenVPN kit.

- Did all the steps and could not get it going. Saw that I had forgot to
force the TAP to "always connected"...

- The TAP interface was then bridged with the wired interface.

- Now I can get it running usig the wired connection on the laptop (over
a HomePlug mains line LAN extender). Can also connect from another laptop
that runs over wifi on the same LAN.

- Have not been able to get it working by sharing the wifi interface
with the TAP.

- Have had the conncection come and go in a way I do not understand.
Might that one need the NET STOP/START MSIPCAP commands anytime
the config changes. Not sure about that...

[John E. Malmberg]

On 4/24/2020 8:15 AM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>
> My luck so far has been all bad.
>
> The VSI Kit installed on:
> Windows 7 laptop: No Network

Have not tried the current version, I used to run Windows 7 in a virtual
box VM with 4 nics, two dedicated FreeAXP. No longer have a system that
can support a Windows 7 VM with other tasks it is doing.

Network worked fine in that configuration. Even ran a VMS cluster while
in a commercial jet, possibly the highest altitude hobbyist VMS cluster.

> Linux Wine: No Network

This may not be much more help:

https://www.openvmshobbyist.com/forum/viewthread.php?forum_id=163&thread_id=2560

> Hyper-V Server: won't install (something about not enough cores)
> ES40: No Network

Have not yet tried ES40. There seems to be a few forks of that project
mentioned on https://www.openvmshobbyist.com.

> I don't mean to knock it and I think the concept is a great idea,
> but do you really think anyone trying this is going to go to the
> trouble we do to get it to work?

Don't know.

Regards.
-John

[Tom Adams]

How do I turn these off?

> You also want the NIC to be in promiscuous (or forced compatibility) mode. The PCAP software is supposed to do this but you can confirm at the command line (run as administrator): netsh bridge show adapter.

I am running version 3.0.0.620

I am not running on a laptop. (I just mentioned that I had a Window 7 laptop that I could try it on). I have it running on a HP Envy 700 series PC.

How do I turn off NIC offloading features?

[Bill Gunshannon]

On 4/24/20 9:48 AM, John E. Malmberg wrote:
> On 4/24/2020 8:15 AM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>
>> ES40: No Network
>
> Have not yet tried ES40.  There seems to be a few forks of that project
> mentioned on https://www.openvmshobbyist.com.

Interesting. I saw nothing of forks and the version on git doesn't
look like it's been touched in over a decade.

>
>> I don't mean to knock it and I think the concept is a great idea,
>> but do you really think anyone trying this is going to go to the
>> trouble we do to get it to work?
>
> Don't know.
>

Rhetorical question.
I spent 25 years with CS students. (And professors!!) None of them
would ever go past the first failure and error message. And, I thought
they were some of the primary targets.

bill

[Tom Adams]

On Friday, April 24, 2020 at 3:22:00 AM UTC-4, Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote:

What does VSI, IMG, and CHG mean?

[Jan-Erik Söderholm]

Is this a joke?

VSI: VMS Software Inc. See: www.vmssoftware.com
IMG: A file type. Used for the "container" files in FreeAXP.
CHG: A file type. Used for the "configuration" files in FreeAXP.

And, as was described in a later post, the above description might
not be fully correct...

[Andrew Brehm]

On 21/04/2020 14:50, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>
>> You not throwing out old tech and and software requiring new tech is
>> not easy to bring into agreement.
>
> Why not?  Even the oldest can run Linux.  I  have an old Gateway laptop
> that can't even take a gig of ram that works just fine on Puppy Linux.

The issue here was that it was the 32 bit version of Windows. 32 bit
Linux would have the same problems.

>>
>> FreeAXP requires AMD64 and it's not Microsoft's fault.
>
> Yes, it does.  But, most of mine are running Linux.  It can do
> everything that Microsoft OSes can do (except run proprietary
> programs from people who insist on kissing Microsoft's ass.)
> And, usually does it faster.
>

That's a weird comment for a VMS newsgroup. Linux can also do everything
that VMS can do, except run proprietary products from people who insist
on kissing DEC's/Compaq's/HP's/VSI's ass.

Personally, I don't like Linux so much. I prefer how Windows NT and VMS
see things.

>>
>> I think my last x86 PC that didn't support the new 64 bit Long Mode is
>> from 2006. I might have had a cheap Windows tablet that was 32 bit only.
>
>
> Like I said, I have a very old Gateway laptop and it still works
> just fine.  But, even if I was inclined to pay the price, there
> is no version of Windows that would run on it.

I doubt it. If it is 64 bit, I am sure there at least one 64 bit version
of Windows will run on it. If not, Linux won't do you much good either
for 64 bit software.

> You seem to have misunderstood the group your are posting in.
> I still run VAX and even PDP-11's.  And I mean real hardware,
> not just emulators.  Some of us don't throw out hardware just
> because something new was introduced.  :-)

I have two PDP-11s myself. But I don't try to run VAX software on a
PDP-11 and then go on about how Ultrix could have done it...


--
Andrew Brehm

[s.ca...@ieee.org]

I'm not a Windows expert by any means but I use the Control Panel, Network/Internet, Network connections, double click on the connection with the hardwired NIC, Properties button, then the configure button, then the advanced tab. You'll see a list of properties. This will look slightly different for each type/brand.

The .360 version is the latest for version 3. It is the version that I am running on my machines.

To check for promiscuous mode/Compatibility mode, I use the command line:
c:\> netsh bridge show adapter - this shows if it is in promiscuous mode

c:\> netsh bridge set adapter # forcecompatmode=enable
# is the ID number of the adapter (you'll get that from the show command)
this command forces the adapter into promiscuous mode.

As someone else mentioned, when you're bridging the adapters together be sure to click the "always connected" check box.

[Tom Adams]

No, not a joke.

Does img/"container" file refer to the disk file? For my setup, I was sent and .avdisk file and an .vdisk file (the big one). I have never had to start with a real Alpha and create a container file. They container file was alway created by someone else.

And, of course, FreeAXP has a configuration file with extension .cfg

I guess you are saying if I install VSI then I will end up with an image on a virtual disk and a configuration with .CHG as it extension.

You seem to be implying that the .CHG file is compatible with Avanti's virtual alpha configuration tool, is that correct??? But it seems to have the wrong extension .chg vs .cfg

And, if I install VSI, won't I just end up with a generic image? I need to be working the the image file for the development environment from work.

Anyway, I guess that would be an experiment that I could try, it the .chg file is really compatible with freeAXP.

Am I understanding you now?

[Jan-Erik Söderholm]

OK. I might have misunderstood something. I thought this as all about
the "hobbyist kit" from VSI: https://training.vmssoftware.com/hobbyist/

And yes, both the FreeAXP and the VSI kits are the same (more or less)
it is the supplied pre-built VSI image that is differnt.

And yes, you should be able to just point to your .vdisk file from
the FreeAXP configuration file, the file name or file extension as
such should be of no importance.

I rememeber now that you talked about a pre-built image from work
at the start, but I think I forgot that later on...

So, what you can do is to try to install the VSI kit according the
the instructions on the VSI page. And when you have that running
including the network, just switch boot disk to the ".vdisk" that
you have got from work.

[Tom Adams]

I went looking for a VSI kit and could not find one. I found something here about a kit that was available till a date in 2016 and the link is dead.

[Jan-Erik Söderholm]

Download: https://training.vmssoftware.com/hobbyist/

Also: https://forum.vmssoftware.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=119

[Tom Adams]

I am looking over this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rf53T7i8RGs&feature=youtu.be

When she finishes, she demonstrates that she can pink stuff on the internet and also ping the DNS server addresses.

Not sure if this gets me where I want to be.

I want to be able to network between Windows 10 and a virtual Alpha on the same computer. I am not particular interested in getting to the internet.

When she demonstrates that it works, she does seem to show that she can do what I want to do.

So will I be about to ping the virtual Alpha from Windows 10 after set up networking based on this video? How do I do that?

[Jan-Erik Söderholm]

I can do that with no issues. Putty session to the VMS environment
on the same laptop. I can come back with some config data...

[Tom Adams]

Not sure what you mean about using Putty to do this. My ultimate goal is to set up Xfree or eXcursion for communications (but not sure that I can make eXcursion work on Windows 10). I need that for testing upgrades to come features.

The Windows 10 desktop in my home office has and Ethernet card and wireless. The Ethernet card not wired in to my router.

But there is another home Windows 10 desktop that is wired. I tried to get the networking going on that one with not luck. But, at one point I was able to ping a virtual bridge via the wired Ethernet card, but I could not ping the virtual VMS system. But maybe if I followed that video training and and (1) cleared all the properties on the Ethernet card and (2) used tcpip_config.com to set it VMS up to use the card and my router, then I could at least get to VMS via my router. That would be progress.

Sorry to be noodling about trying stuff and not trying it. I have tried so many configurations on my two Windows 10 Systems that I am burned out on trying stuff.

[Tom Adams]

I meant tcpip$config.com

[Arne Vajhøj]

On 6/9/2020 11:49 AM, Tom Adams wrote:
> I am looking over this:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rf53T7i8RGs&feature=youtu.be
>
> When she finishes, she demonstrates that she can pink stuff on the internet and also ping the DNS server addresses.
>
> Not sure if this gets me where I want to be.
>
> I want to be able to network between Windows 10 and a virtual Alpha on the same computer. I am not particular interested in getting to the internet.
>
> When she demonstrates that it works, she does seem to show that she can do what I want to do.
>
> So will I be about to ping the virtual Alpha from Windows 10 after set up networking based on this video? How do I do that?

I am not sure that I can follow you.

You have IP working on your Windows including internet access.

If you get internet working on the virtual VMS system then
IP is working on that as well.

In theory that could happen without the Windows and VMS
system being able to communicate via IP.

But the normal would be that if you got IP working on both
then they can also communicate.

Arne

[Jan-Erik Söderholm]

> Not sure what you mean about using Putty to do this...

Nothing else than that the network is working. As I understand, it
does not make any difference what you use to communicate...

> My ultimate goal is to set up Xfree or eXcursion for communications (but
> not sure that I can make eXcursion work on Windows 10). I need that for
> testing upgrades to come features.
>
> The Windows 10 desktop in my home office has and Ethernet card and
> wireless. The Ethernet card not wired in to my router.
>

As I have said before, I never got it working using Wifi.

[Chris Scheers]

On Windows, there can be many different issues affecting communication
between the host and a VM or emulator.

I would first verify that I can talk to the virtual Alpha through a hard
wired connection to an external box. Once the external box can talk to
both the Windows host and the virtual Alpha, you can try to get them to
talk to each other.

Common issues are:

1) Firewall rules.

2) Ethernet driver settings. Typically TOE (TCP Offload Engine)
settings. Broadcom and Intel chipsets are the biggest problems in my
experience. Note that these settings do not affect off machine
communications.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Scheers, Applied Synergy, Inc.

Voice: 817-237-3360 Internet: ch...@applied-synergy.com
Fax: 817-237-3074

[s.ca...@ieee.org]

The instructor in the video says that she uses the WIFI network card for her Windows communication and the hard wired network card for her VMS system communications. If the network that the hardware network card is plugged into and the network that the WIFI adapter is connected to can communicate then you will be able to communicate between the VMS system and the Windows system. If you are on a home network, in most cases the WIFI network and the hardwired network are the same network but even if they aren't your WIFI router will route between them.

Have you connected your Windows Laptop to the network in the same configuration as the instructor in the video? (That is is the Ethernet card hardwired into your switch/router, and windows communicating through WIFI).

[Tom Adams]

I have tried the specific hardware configuration that the instructor uses.

But I tried it using methods involving a virtual bridge and virtual adapters.

I have never tried the specific software configuration that the instructor uses. To be specific I have never run tcpip$config.com to change the ip addresses.

All the methods that I tried so far had a virtual adapter that set up so that I supposedly did not need to change anything using tcpip$config.com

[Tom Adams]

All she did was ping something on the internet from VMS.

I want be able to ping from the local computer to VMS whether or not I am connected to the internet.