OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 31
Sue Skonetski
From: Grant, Clair
Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 3:40 PM
To: OpenVMS Systems Software Group
Subject: VMS boots on Itanium
We are please to announce that OpenVMS has booted on an HP i2000 Itanium
system. By successfully executing a DIRECTORY command the official date and
time for the Boot Contest is January 31, 2003 3:31 PM EST.
Many, many people have contributed to this effort, including managers,
supervisors, project leaders, consultants, development infrastructure group,
calling standard committee, engineers working on post-boot projects, etc.
All will receive their well-deserved credit as we proceed. The following is
a very specific set of people; these are the engineers who
designed/wrote/debugged the code that comprises the running operating
system.
list of wonderful engineers removed by Sue Skonetski
Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr
Many congratulations!
Whatever anybody thinks about the Itanium strategy, this is a major
accomplishment and an impressive achievement.
-- Alan
===============================================================================
Alan Winston --- WIN...@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 650/926-3056
Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA 94025
===============================================================================
Alan Frisbie
> We are please to announce that OpenVMS has booted on an HP i2000 Itanium
> system. By successfully executing a DIRECTORY command the official date and
> time for the Boot Contest is January 31, 2003 3:31 PM EST.
CONGRATULATIONS TO ALL THE ENGINEERS AND SUPPORT PEOPLE!!!!!
Does Hoff get to sleep in tomorrow morning? :-)
It looks like it happened about five hours earlier than my
guess. Did anyone get closer than that?
My theory was that it would happen on a Friday night, after
all the annoying distractions had gone home and it was
possible to concentrate on those last few bugs.
Alan
John Smith
"Sue Skonetski" <susan.s...@hp.nospam.com> wrote in message
news:b1et1g$1nc$1...@web1.cup.hp.com...
Great. Now that the contractual obligation to Intel has been
fulfilled, can we all get focused back on Alpha EV8+?
JF Mezei
> Many, many people have contributed to this effort, including managers,
> list of wonderful engineers removed by Sue Skonetski
Seems to me that the engineers and their caretaker (Sue) would be far more
important and should have been listed well before managers.
Now that they have completed the port, can they can back to improving VMS on
VAX ????? ;-) :-) :-)
Shane Smith
the job done is unique and impressive. Most management types seem to
have the opposite effect...
(Damn, I wish a smiley were appropriate here.)
Shane
Michael Austin
Congratulations!!!
--
Regards,
Michael Austin OpenVMS User since June 1984
First DBA Source, Inc. Registered Linux User #261163
Sr. Consultant http://www.firstdbasource.com
Mark Daniel
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: Grant, Clair
>
> Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 3:40 PM
>
> To: OpenVMS Systems Software Group
>
> Subject: VMS boots on Itanium
>
> We are please to announce that OpenVMS has booted on an HP i2000 Itanium
> system.
Many congratulations to VMS Engineering (who in spite of not a few
obstacles and many naysayers have shown, once again, that they can do
whatever they set their minds - and are permitted - to do!)
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
Mark Daniel http://wasd.vsm.com.au/adelaide
mailto:Mark....@wasd.vsm.com.au (Mark....@dsto.defence.gov.au)
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
Larry Kilgallen
> Many congratulations to VMS Engineering (who in spite of not a few
> obstacles and many naysayers have shown, once again, that they can do
> whatever they set their minds - and are permitted - to do!)
Presumably N-5 or so of the crew avoided naysayers by avoiding
comp.os.vms .
JF Mezei
>
> IMHO the fact that managers in OpenVMS engineering contribute to getting
> the job done is unique and impressive. Most management types seem to
> have the opposite effect...
Which is why the engineers deserve an ever bigger round of applause since they
managed to boot VMS on an intel chip DESPITE their managers getting involved
:-) :-) ;-)
dcain
Richard Maher
Well, about bloody time! :-)
Seriously, this is an amazing result! Surely the product of a truly
Herculean effort by all involved. I will be waving this in a lot of people's
faces over the coming months. It's just great to see VMS punching off the
front foot again!!!
Just one small question (from someone who sounds like he still needs to
sleep with the light on) is it safe to say that all the show-stoppers and
architectural issues are now behind us? And the blue-prints have been signed
off? And the rest of the port (although important and still challenging)
will be more on the formulaic side of creativity? Issues like memory
management and access modes long since solved? If the answer is yes then
it's clear that this effort/result is more than anyone could have hoped for
and it's also clear that *somehow* Digital/Compaq/HP has managed to retain
some of the best brains in the world!
> It looks like it happened about five hours earlier than my
> guess. Did anyone get closer than that?
I'll have to find my bit of paper that I chook scrawled my guess on, but I
might have just snuck in there. I think I was either 11:00am or 1:00pm but
if I'd won I'm sure my DS10 would've been delivered already :-) What was the
prize anyway? I'd always wanted a VMS umbrella. (Please BIGGER branding on
these things in future!)
Is there anyway to get a list of guesses or a copy of my own guess? Did we
get mailed with a confirmation?
Cheers Richard Maher.
Alan Frisbie <Ab...@NelsonUSA.com> wrote in message
news:3E3B05AE...@NelsonUSA.com...
Fred Kleinsorge
"Richard Maher" <mahe...@hotspamnotmail.com> wrote in message
news:b1gia5$8nc$1...@sparta.btinternet.com...
> Hi,
>
> Well, about bloody time! :-)
>
> Seriously, this is an amazing result! Surely the product of a truly
> Herculean effort by all involved. I will be waving this in a lot of
people's
> faces over the coming months. It's just great to see VMS punching off the
> front foot again!!!
>
> Just one small question (from someone who sounds like he still needs to
> sleep with the light on) is it safe to say that all the show-stoppers and
> architectural issues are now behind us? And the blue-prints have been
signed
> off?
Yes. No showstoppers.
> And the rest of the port (although important and still challenging)
> will be more on the formulaic side of creativity?
Yes/No. Still a bit of work to go. It's be a few weeks before things
become "formulaic"
>Issues like memory
> management and access modes long since solved? If the answer is yes then
> it's clear that this effort/result is more than anyone could have hoped
for
> and it's also clear that *somehow* Digital/Compaq/HP has managed to retain
> some of the best brains in the world!
>
Solved.
Fred Kleinsorge
"John Smith" <a...@nonymous.com> wrote in message
news:6bE_9.184477$ej1....@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
Your welcome too. Glad you're still grinding the axe.
Bob Ceculski
a new dawn begins ...
Bill Gunshannon
>> -----Original Message-----
>>
>> From: Grant, Clair
>>
>> Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 3:40 PM
>>
>> To: OpenVMS Systems Software Group
>>
>> Subject: VMS boots on Itanium
>>
>> We are please to announce that OpenVMS has booted on an HP i2000 Itanium
>> system.
> 8< snip 8<
>
> Many congratulations to VMS Engineering (who in spite of not a few
> obstacles and many naysayers have shown, once again, that they can do
> whatever they set their minds - and are permitted - to do!)
>
I don't think that there was anyone here who doubted that engineering
could make VMS boot and even run on IA64. The naysayers just doubt it
is the path they should be taking. But that's a managment issue and we
all know how good that is.
bill
--
Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
bi...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton |
Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
Michel Herrscher
This new era is the perfect continuum of a long long history, that began on
17-nov-1858 and will end at the end of times ....
--
Michel HERRSCHER CONSULTANT
VMSer on VAX and ALHA ( only since 14-jun1979.... VMS 1.3)
Waiting ITANIUMer in later in 2003 ( if INTEL wants it ;) , as VMS did it.
John Smith
"Fred Kleinsorge" <klein...@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message
news:xYQ_9.268$%d4....@news.cpqcorp.net...
A contrarian opinion isn't necessarily wrong.
I recognize the amount of effort that has gone into this task. Too bad
DEC/Compaq/HP management didn't drive the business side of Alpha as
hard as they have forced this technical tour-de-force you
(collectively) have achieved. The time, effort, and money would have
been better spent having EV8 in the market now. Yes I know that Intel
would not have given the porting money in that case, but don't you
think that an additional $3-4B in Alpha and related software sales
that has vaporized in the wake of June 2001 would have compensated for
that?
The arguments posited by Comapq/HP management sound to me a lot like
the wool the investment industry like to pull over people's eyes (my
specialty is financial services systems, applications, and
consulting). The mutual fund co's. and portfolio managers in general
like to point out in falling markets that their rates of return are
much better than their competitors - "We've had a -14.4% return
whereas fund XYZ has had -17.9% return. So we're much better than
them." Relative performance is a sorry excuse. Do you feel better that
your 401k or IRA has, perhaps, declined less than the market? Does it
really make you richer and more able to retire the way you want to?
To quote the immortal lines from the intellectually hi-brow movie
'Conan The Barbarian', "Fred, what is best in life? To crush your
enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of
their women." It's actually an interesting allegory for business.
EV8, not Itanic nor variants thereof, would have done that in the
current timeframe had development continued and been forced with the
same sense of urgency as the Itanic port has been. Compaq and now HP
have, probably fatally, lost sight of that. You don't really win wars
by ekking out a narrow victory, you win by crushing your opponents.
Narrow victories leave you battered, bloody, and bruised. The
opportunity for Compaq/HP has been squandered.
Alder
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: Grant, Clair
>
> Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 3:40 PM
>
> To: OpenVMS Systems Software Group
>
> Subject: VMS boots on Itanium
>
>
>
Here is the list (as provided by Jean-François Marchal on the WASD mailing list.
Merci, Jean-François:
ASSEMBLER
Shafiq Ahmed
Larry Ingram
Helen Willett
Joanne Neschke
IMACRO
Peter Haynes
Karl Puder
John Reagan
C
Walt Carrell
Val McCutcheon
Tom Osten
Rich Peterson
Duane Smith
Ed Vogel
CRTL
Dave Faulkner
Brad McCusker
Charlie MuCutcheon
BLISS / GEM / LIBOTS
Deborah Belcher
Ron Brender
Peter Craig
Lucy Hamnett
Tom Lavigne
Jeannie Lieb
Sheila Mitchell
Members of the Intel Nashua Software Lab
KERNEL TOOLS
Richard Bishop
Chip Dancy
Paul Hider
Anders Johansson
Jeff Nelson
OBJECTS and IMAGES (LINKER, ANALYZE, ...)
Walt Arbo
Josh Cope
Hartmut Becker
Robert Deininger
David Elins
John Hallyburton
Todd Schoeller
Steve Skonetski
DCL, DIR ...
Gerry Gleeson
Dale Gunn
Bob Ingraham
George Maiewski
Phil Nezballa
Larry Pearson
Dave Vaughan
EXEC, DRIVERS, XQP, RMS
Paul Benoit
Ken Blaylock
Tony Camuso
Andrew Crager
Stu Davison
Burns Fisher
Jeff Friedrichs
Doug Gordon
Clair Grant
John Harney
Paul Jacobi
Greg Jordan
Jim Kauffman
Forrest Kenney
Fred Kleinsorge
Andy Kuehnel
Dennis Mattoon
Christian Moser
Gary Newsted
Karen Noel
Paul Rivera
Elinor Woods
Bill Todd
"Bill Gunshannon" <bi...@cs.uofs.edu> wrote in message
news:b1go19$131crj$1...@ID-135708.news.dfncis.de...
> In article <3e3b4...@news.chariot.net.au>,
> Mark Daniel <Mark....@wasd.vsm.com.au> writes:
> > Sue Skonetski wrote:
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >>
> >> From: Grant, Clair
> >>
> >> Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 3:40 PM
> >>
> >> To: OpenVMS Systems Software Group
> >>
> >> Subject: VMS boots on Itanium
> >>
> >> We are please to announce that OpenVMS has booted on an HP i2000
Itanium
> >> system.
> > 8< snip 8<
> >
> > Many congratulations to VMS Engineering (who in spite of not a few
> > obstacles and many naysayers have shown, once again, that they can do
> > whatever they set their minds - and are permitted - to do!)
> >
>
> I don't think that there was anyone here who doubted that engineering
> could make VMS boot and even run on IA64. The naysayers just doubt it
> is the path they should be taking.
Exactly. Terry made the same inane comment to any publication that would
publish him, and it was just as unfounded there. I would like to think I'm
about as persistent a 'naysayer' as exists, and while back when the boot
contest was announced most people seemed to feel the date would be last
summer or early fall I made a more conservative guess (either mid-October or
November - can't recall now) based upon Itanic's absolutely perfect record
of severe slippage (which the recent Montecito announcement continues
unscathed).
So without in any way meaning to minimize the magnitude of the sub-task just
completed, the fact is that even the naysayers turned out to have been
over-optimistic about its completion date. Far from being a refutation of
their attitude, it if anything indicates that it is still under-stated.
- bill
Dave Gudewicz
Mark Daniel
> "Bill Gunshannon" <bi...@cs.uofs.edu> wrote in message
> news:b1go19$131crj$1...@ID-135708.news.dfncis.de...
>
>>In article <3e3b4...@news.chariot.net.au>,
>>Mark Daniel <Mark....@wasd.vsm.com.au> writes:
8< snip 8<
>>>Many congratulations to VMS Engineering (who in spite of not a few
>>>obstacles and many naysayers have shown, once again, that they can do
>>>whatever they set their minds - and are permitted - to do!)
>>>
>>
>>I don't think that there was anyone here who doubted that engineering
>>could make VMS boot and even run on IA64. The naysayers just doubt it
>>is the path they should be taking.
>
> Exactly. Terry made the same inane comment to any publication that would
> publish him, and it was just as unfounded there. I would like to think I'm
> about as persistent a 'naysayer' as exists, and while back when the boot
I am not an industry analyst.
I have never profered any opinion (in this forum) on this issue.
In that context I do not think my remark deserved 'inane'.
Perhaps something gentler.
Once again ...
Many congratulations to VMS Engineering (who in spite of not a few
obstacles and some persistent naysayers have shown, once again, that
they can do whatever they set their minds - and are permitted - to do!)
The 'permitted' is also important. I'm sure the Engineering side of VMS
have wanted to undertake many projects over the past decade only to be
ham-strung by CEO and BOD directions. It must be great for their morale
to be getting a major accomplishment under their belts. Of course I
might just be talking out my a**[*] again.
And while I'm back at the keyboard; I amongst many, though I should
imagine not all, would like to say thanks for the sponsored effort in
bringing some important open-source tools to the VMS platform. Keep it
up and keep those tools already ported current please.
Bob Ceculski
>
> To quote the immortal lines from the intellectually hi-brow movie
> 'Conan The Barbarian', "Fred, what is best in life? To crush your
> enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of
> their women." It's actually an interesting allegory for business.
> EV8, not Itanic nor variants thereof, would have done that in the
> current timeframe had development continued and been forced with the
> same sense of urgency as the Itanic port has been. Compaq and now HP
> have, probably fatally, lost sight of that. You don't really win wars
> by ekking out a narrow victory, you win by crushing your opponents.
> Narrow victories leave you battered, bloody, and bruised. The
> opportunity for Compaq/HP has been squandered.
true, but what is one mans junk is another mans treasure, and
Intel now has alpha and the alpha engineering team, and they
will take alpha and incorporate it bit by bit into itanium
and they will reap the rewards ...
Bill Todd
"Mark Daniel" <Mark....@wasd.vsm.com.au> wrote in message
news:3e3c6...@news.chariot.net.au...
> Bill Todd wrote:
> > "Bill Gunshannon" <bi...@cs.uofs.edu> wrote in message
> > news:b1go19$131crj$1...@ID-135708.news.dfncis.de...
> >
> >>In article <3e3b4...@news.chariot.net.au>,
> >>Mark Daniel <Mark....@wasd.vsm.com.au> writes:
> 8< snip 8<
> >>>Many congratulations to VMS Engineering (who in spite of not a few
> >>>obstacles and many naysayers have shown, once again, that they can do
> >>>whatever they set their minds - and are permitted - to do!)
> >>>
> >>
> >>I don't think that there was anyone here who doubted that engineering
> >>could make VMS boot and even run on IA64. The naysayers just doubt it
> >>is the path they should be taking.
> >
> > Exactly. Terry made the same inane comment to any publication that
would
> > publish him, and it was just as unfounded there. I would like to think
I'm
> > about as persistent a 'naysayer' as exists, and while back when the boot
> 8< snip 8<
>
> I am not an industry analyst.
> I have never profered any opinion (in this forum) on this issue.
> In that context I do not think my remark deserved 'inane'.
I'm afraid that whether a comment qualifies as 'inane' is a function neither
of whether one is an industry analyst (though they may be more prone to
utter such than the general population) nor of whether one has ventured
previous comments on the subject.
> Perhaps something gentler.
Since it could have been considerably less gentle without exceeding the
limits of applicability, you might count your blessings instead of
complaining.
>
> Once again ...
>
> Many congratulations to VMS Engineering (who in spite of not a few
> obstacles and some persistent naysayers have shown, once again, that
> they can do whatever they set their minds - and are permitted - to do!)
OK: once was merely inane, but repetition after correction demonstrates
active incompetence - unless, of course, you can point out (with citations)
several individuals who have repeatedly opined that the VMS team would not
succeed in this endeavor (i.e., 'some persistent naysayers').
Clearer now?
- bill
Mark Daniel
> "Mark Daniel" <Mark....@wasd.vsm.com.au> wrote in message
> news:3e3c6...@news.chariot.net.au...
> OK: once was merely inane, but repetition after correction demonstrates
> active incompetence - unless, of course, you can point out (with citations)
> several individuals who have repeatedly opined that the VMS team would not
> succeed in this endeavor (i.e., 'some persistent naysayers').
>
> Clearer now?
;^) OK Bill, I don't really mind. Wouldn't be the first time I've
been told I was wrong. In the so-called grand scheme of things I doubt
whether this small item oft' will be recorded amongst the annals of
Computer Science 101. Let me rephrase the entire heart-felt citation so
as not to give (or at least reduce as much as humanly possible)
opportunity for further polemic.
Congratulations to VMS Engineering.
Brannon Batson
> [snip]
>
> true, but what is one mans junk is another mans treasure, and
> Intel now has alpha and the alpha engineering team, and they
> will take alpha and incorporate it bit by bit into itanium
> and they will reap the rewards ...
oh, is that what we're supposed to be doing?
Brannon
not speaking for Intel
Bill Todd
"Brannon Batson" <Brannon...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4495ef1f.03020...@posting.google.com...
Didn't you know? Bob has certainly made it clear enough, many, many
times...
- bill
Bill Todd
> Bill Todd wrote:
> > "Mark Daniel" <Mark....@wasd.vsm.com.au> wrote in message
> > news:3e3c6...@news.chariot.net.au...
> 8< snip 8<
> > OK: once was merely inane, but repetition after correction demonstrates
> > active incompetence - unless, of course, you can point out (with
citations)
> > several individuals who have repeatedly opined that the VMS team would
not
> > succeed in this endeavor (i.e., 'some persistent naysayers').
> >
> > Clearer now?
>
> ;^) OK Bill, I don't really mind. Wouldn't be the first time I've
> been told I was wrong. In the so-called grand scheme of things I doubt
> whether this small item oft' will be recorded amongst the annals of
> Computer Science 101. Let me rephrase the entire heart-felt citation so
> as not to give (or at least reduce as much as humanly possible)
> opportunity for further polemic.
>
> Congratulations to VMS Engineering.
Now that's a formulation I have no trouble at all agreeing with.
- bill
Hans Vlems
"Sue Skonetski" <susan.s...@hp.nospam.com> schreef in bericht
news:b1et1g$1nc$1...@web1.cup.hp.com...
> -----Original Message-----
>
Congratulations !
After VAX/VMS, AXP/VMS there's now I64/VMS ....
Hans
BTW Does it have a >>> console prompt ?
John Santos
Bill, why are you such a jerk? (I could be considerably less gentle.)
> > Once again ...
> >
> > Many congratulations to VMS Engineering (who in spite of not a few
> > obstacles and some persistent naysayers have shown, once again, that
> > they can do whatever they set their minds - and are permitted - to do!)
>
> OK: once was merely inane, but repetition after correction demonstrates
> active incompetence - unless, of course, you can point out (with citations)
> several individuals who have repeatedly opined that the VMS team would not
> succeed in this endeavor (i.e., 'some persistent naysayers').
>
> Clearer now?
>
> - bill
It wasn't a correction. It was an ad hominem attack.
--
John Santos
Bill Todd
"John Santos" <JO...@egh.com> wrote in message
news:1030202114628...@Ives.egh.com...
> On Sun, 2 Feb 2003, Bill Todd wrote:
...
> > I'm afraid that whether a comment qualifies as 'inane' is a function
neither
> > of whether one is an industry analyst (though they may be more prone to
> > utter such than the general population) nor of whether one has ventured
> > previous comments on the subject.
> >
> > > Perhaps something gentler.
> >
> > Since it could have been considerably less gentle without exceeding the
> > limits of applicability, you might count your blessings instead of
> > complaining.
>
> Bill, why are you such a jerk? (I could be considerably less gentle.)
And you seem to feel that your tone (dear me: could it be ad hominem, as
you claim for me below?) is the appropriate one to take. Pot/kettle, I'd
say - but nonetheless I think you'll find that I answered the question just
now in another post.
>
> > > Once again ...
> > >
> > > Many congratulations to VMS Engineering (who in spite of not a few
> > > obstacles and some persistent naysayers have shown, once again, that
> > > they can do whatever they set their minds - and are permitted - to
do!)
> >
> > OK: once was merely inane, but repetition after correction demonstrates
> > active incompetence - unless, of course, you can point out (with
citations)
> > several individuals who have repeatedly opined that the VMS team would
not
> > succeed in this endeavor (i.e., 'some persistent naysayers').
> >
> > Clearer now?
> >
> > - bill
>
> It wasn't a correction. It was an ad hominem attack.
It correctly characterized the observation as inane, and explained why:
exactly what part of that either constitutes an ad hominem attack or fails
to qualify as a correction?
Perhaps your preconceptions just made it a bit difficult to read - but
that's not my problem
- bill
Tsarkon
can I buy an 8-way IA-64?
DEC knew how to make customers happy. Compaq did a halfway decent job.
HPQ is a joke, being driven into the ground by Carly Fiorina. Agilent
was the sending of the "smart people" away from the company, they
don't make enough money. HP Calculators? Not profitable enough - fire
all the engineers in the calculator division. Shut the division down.
What I don't understand is why HP keeps this bloated pig of a CPU
around not to sell. I have had the displeasure of testing an Itanium,
and you know what? Its a joke. IBM, man, even Sun, has a much better
shot now at culling HP's business. As Andrea Bocelli says, and I sing
it now for VMS customers as they will sing to you when they leave:
"Time to say Gooooodbyeeeeeeeee"
Whoever you are at HP that posted this: Platt. Gone. Agilent. Gone.
Capellas, lied to and drummed out. HP Calculators. Gone. BRUCE PERENS.
Gone. DEC's legendary dedication to the advancement of the field of
computing, gutted and stripped. HP OpenMail. Cancelled. Customers told
to use that god damn joke named Microsoft Exchange Server. Compaq's
superior handhelds – stolen and assimilated into the Borg Hive at HP.
GET off while you still can. Or Carly just might pink slip your ass.
Larry Kilgallen
> Snore. Snore. Snore. Itanium is a pipe dream. I hope you know. Where
> can I buy an 8-way IA-64?
Since VMS just booted, I think the relevant question would be "when",
not "where".
Since a production quality VMS will not be release for end users until
more than a year from now, current purchase of a multiprocessor IA64
hardly matters for purposes of this newsgroup (developers don't require
such).
Since the fastest Alpha will be faster than the fastest Itanium for
a while yet, there is also no urgency. I am confident that SMP
Itanium systems will be ready by the time VMS and the Itanium
processor are ready for Itanium to be a performance leader in
SMP systems.
John Smith
"Tsarkon" <xei...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:baa86a4a.03020...@posting.google.com...
> Snore. Snore. Snore. Itanium is a pipe dream. I hope you know. Where
> can I buy an 8-way IA-64?
Apparently SGI "has it now". At least they appear to have 16/32/64-way
versions http://www.spec.org/cpu2000/results/res2003q1/ As to
whether you could actually pull you pickup to the loading dock today
and get one is another matter.
David J. Dachtera
>
> In article <3e3b4...@news.chariot.net.au>,
> Mark Daniel <Mark....@wasd.vsm.com.au> writes:
> > 8< snip 8<
> >
> > Many congratulations to VMS Engineering (who in spite of not a few
> > obstacles and many naysayers have shown, once again, that they can do
> > whatever they set their minds - and are permitted - to do!)
> >
>
> I don't think that there was anyone here who doubted that engineering
> could make VMS boot and even run on IA64. The naysayers just doubt it
> is the path they should be taking.
I'd like to go on record as saying that VMS on Itanic is fine,
especially if marketable, mass-producible, ready-for-prime-time Itanic
systems ever see the light of VMS day. Needless to say, I have my
doubts, and everyday that Itanic is delayed further fortifies that
doubt.
On the other hand, if Itanic only is the target, than no, that is
*DEFINITELY* not the path to take, especially now that AMD seems poised
to take the 64-bit lead.
> But that's a managment issue and we
> all know how good that is.
It would be more correct to say that management, or more correctly, the
lack thereof, *IS* the issue!
OVMS Engr. is, IMO, by far the greatest bunch of tech. folks you'll ever
find. I do not hold their loyalty to their management against them. Be
there a wolf or two among the sheep who has yet to rise up in defense of
VMS, then such is(are) the one(s) I would hold at fault.
--
David J. Dachtera
dba DJE Systems
http://www.djesys.com/
Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page:
http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/
Z
Bob Ceculski
yes, that is exactly what you are doing, otherwise itanium
will be just another boat anchor like all the rest ...
you needed alpha technology ... epic will never get out
of port unless you add alpha technology ... what did you
think you did and got caught in 95-96, you ended up making
alpha chips over that one ... you stole alpha technology
then and now you wnet and bought the whole alpha team to
help you save the good ship itanic ... the only reason
I hold hope for itanium is the alpha team may be able to
save it ... we shall see with chivano and after ...
Bill Todd
"Bob Ceculski" <b...@instantwhip.com> wrote in message
news:d7791aa1.0302...@posting.google.com...
> Brannon...@yahoo.com (Brannon Batson) wrote in message
news:<4495ef1f.03020...@posting.google.com>...
> > b...@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski) wrote in message
news:<d7791aa1.03020...@posting.google.com>...
> > > [snip]
> > >
> > > true, but what is one mans junk is another mans treasure, and
> > > Intel now has alpha and the alpha engineering team, and they
> > > will take alpha and incorporate it bit by bit into itanium
> > > and they will reap the rewards ...
> >
> > oh, is that what we're supposed to be doing?
> >
> > Brannon
> > not speaking for Intel
>
> yes, that is exactly what you are doing, otherwise itanium
> will be just another boat anchor like all the rest ...
> you needed alpha technology ... epic will never get out
> of port unless you add alpha technology ... what did you
> think you did and got caught in 95-96, you ended up making
> alpha chips over that one ... you stole alpha technology
> then and now you wnet and bought the whole alpha team to
> help you save the good ship itanic
Bob, you seem to be unaware (surprise, surprise!) that you're talking to a
member of that Alpha team rather than to a 'native' Intel person. But I'm
sure that won't stop you from telling him what he ought to be doing: after
all, what does he know compared to you?
- bill
Paul Nankervis
> To: OpenVMS Systems Software Group
>
> Subject: VMS boots on Itanium
>
> We are please to announce that OpenVMS has booted on an HP i2000 Itanium
> system. By successfully executing a DIRECTORY command the official date
and
> time for the Boot Contest is January 31, 2003 3:31 PM EST.
Congratulations to all involved. This is indeed a good bit of news.
Now how long before we see the I386 port? :-)
And I notice that the boot contest entry page is still there. Is it too late
for someone to enter? :-)
http://h18003.www1.hp.com/hps/ipf-enterprise/openvms_contest.html
Also I notice lots of commentory on the slashdot web site. Looks like not
everyone is a VMS fan... :-(
http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/02/01/1814211 There is also a mention
of this feat on the inquirer pages
http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=7551 but no mention on the register yet?
Anyhow this news was good to hear! It would be nice if there are some
followups to provide technical information and war stories about how it
went. And some information about how much had to be rewritten (eg did it
involved moving any BLISS/MACRO modules to C? - And has getting rid of VAX
and PAL dependencies helped performance any?)
Now I just need to figure out where I can get a cheap Itanium.... :-(
Paul Nankervis
Dave Weatherall
wrote:
> In article <3e3b4...@news.chariot.net.au>,
> Mark Daniel <Mark....@wasd.vsm.com.au> writes:
> > Sue Skonetski wrote:
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >>
> >> From: Grant, Clair
> >>
> >> Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 3:40 PM
> >>
> >> To: OpenVMS Systems Software Group
> >>
> >> Subject: VMS boots on Itanium
> >>
> >> We are please to announce that OpenVMS has booted on an HP i2000 Itanium
> >> system.
> > 8< snip 8<
> >
> > Many congratulations to VMS Engineering (who in spite of not a few
> > obstacles and many naysayers have shown, once again, that they can do
> > whatever they set their minds - and are permitted - to do!)
> >
>
> I don't think that there was anyone here who doubted that engineering
> could make VMS boot and even run on IA64. The naysayers just doubt it
> is the path they should be taking. But that's a managment issue and we
> all know how good that is.
Quite right Bill. There's a difference between criticising Alphacide
and criticising a port to Itanium. I don't remember anybody
criticising the _principle_ of the latter, even if they did cast doubt
on the efficacy of Itanium as a CPU per se. Again, any work done in
moving the hardware depencies of VMS down the code ladder has got to
make it easier to put VMS on other platforms.
Now all they've got to do is sell it!
Cheers - Dave.
PS. I almost forgot to say well done to those involved. So : WELL DONE
all !.
Dave Weatherall
wrote:
> Sue Skonetski wrote:
> > -----Original Message-----
> >
> > From: Grant, Clair
> >
> > Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 3:40 PM
> >
> > To: OpenVMS Systems Software Group
> >
> > Subject: VMS boots on Itanium
> >
> >
> > list of wonderful engineers removed by Sue Skonetski
> >
And again by me :-)
I'm sure the list is incomplete, Where's Hoff ??
--
Cheers - Dave.
Brannon Batson
> [snip]
>
> yes, that is exactly what you are doing, otherwise itanium
> will be just another boat anchor like all the rest ...
> you needed alpha technology ... epic will never get out
> of port unless you add alpha technology ... what did you
> think you did and got caught in 95-96, you ended up making
> alpha chips over that one ... you stole alpha technology
> then and now you wnet and bought the whole alpha team to
> help you save the good ship itanic ... the only reason
> I hold hope for itanium is the alpha team may be able to
> save it ... we shall see with chivano and after ...
Jesus, Bob, when do you graduate from high school? I am one of the
Alpha team members that Intel 'bought'. I think you have a very
warped view of reality.
I'm not sure what you mean when you say 'alpha technology'. I'm not
sure what most people mean when they say that. The way you use that
phrase, you make it sound like some sort of magic pixie dust. That's
like saying that the New York yankees have better 'baseball
technology'.
There is no pixie dust. The truth is much less glamorous than that.
Listen closely, because truer words were never spoken...Alpha was
never about the technology. Technology is the easy part. Alpha was
always about the people, and the attitude.
It still is.
David Webb
But that's the point Bob. They got the Alpha engineers to try and save
itanium but it is their general expertise in chip design rather than the
specifics of Alpha technology which they will have to use.
The philosophy of Alpha and IA64 are so far apart that without a major redesign
of Itanium (ie dropping of Epic and massive streamlining of the chip) then most
of the specific's of Alpha design cannot be successfully transplanted to
Itanium. Any such major redesign is years away (if it ever occurs).
David Webb
VMS and Unix team leader
CCSS
Middlesex University
Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy
Tsarkon wrote:
> Snore. Snore. Snore. Itanium is a pipe dream. I hope you know. Where
> can I buy an 8-way IA-64?
>
SGI and Unisys do one. Up to 64 way. Rather Ironic
that its SGI and Unisys and not HP who are first to
market with a large SMP IA-64 based machine.
Regards
Andrew Harrison
Larry Kilgallen
Perhaps HP has a better sense of timing.
Bob Ceculski
>
> Listen closely, because truer words were never spoken...Alpha was
> never about the technology. Technology is the easy part. Alpha was
> always about the people, and the attitude.
>
> It still is.
>
> Brannon
> not speaking for Intel
wrong, IBM and Sun have people, and they definitely have
an attitude, but they don't and never did have the
technology ... alpha did and does ... wothout that it
would just be another chip, and you would not be employed
by Intel currently, but in the unemployment line with
all the other ibm and sun engineers ... and that line is
growing all the time ...
Fred Kleinsorge
"Hans Vlems" <hvl...@iae.nl> wrote in message
news:b1j3oe$13c9ua$1...@ID-143435.news.dfncis.de...
>
> "Sue Skonetski" <susan.s...@hp.nospam.com> schreef in bericht
> news:b1et1g$1nc$1...@web1.cup.hp.com...
> > -----Original Message-----
> >
>
>
No. And when/if we provide a VMS boot manager, we won't use >>> so we won't
confuse people into thinking it's the SRM.
Fred Kleinsorge
"Larry Kilgallen" <Kilg...@SpamCop.net> wrote in message
news:k3PYqW...@eisner.encompasserve.org...
I'm sure that anyone who needs to know for planning purposes, can get a
presentation of the HP Itanium2 roadmap from their sales rep. Be assured
that the entire range of Itanium2 systems is planned.
Fred Kleinsorge
"Dave Weatherall" <djw...@attglobal.net> wrote in message
news:DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-M5hi7NeKMVqs@localhost...
The list was a very specific list of those who directly worked on the code
that was used to get us to first boot.
The lack of any particular favorite engineers name doesn't mean they aren't
working on parts of the port, just that their contribution wasn't on the
very narrow areas needed to get this far. Steve is involved both on the
logistics side of making it possible for the architecture sources, as well
as code that will be used for the first release of VMS on Itanium.
Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy
Not really.
The HP N4000 introduced in 1999 and replaced by the
rp7400 in 2001 was the first HP server designed
to support Itanium (8 way). It was introduced with HP-PA
processors but was upgradable (theoretically) to Itanium.
Due to delays and little problems like PA being faster than
Itanium this upgrade never materialised and HP N4000 users
who bought the boxes with an aim to upgrade have never been
able to do so. However the engineering was apparently done by
HP. Either that or they weren't being exactly candid with
their customers.
SuperDome was also announced as being Itanium upgradeable
and again the engineering has apparently been done, HP
have also apparently demonstrated Itanium based Domes.
I doubt that many people would agree that this is HP showing
a better sense of timing.
Regards
Andrew Harrison
John Reagan
And some information about how much had to be rewritten (eg did it
> involved moving any BLISS/MACRO modules to C? - And has getting rid of VAX
> and PAL dependencies helped performance any?)
>
Absolutely no performance measurements have been done yet. Things are
still too volatile. Many of the compilations were even done with /NOOPT
so you have half a chance of single stepping through the instructions
and understanding what is going on.
As for source rewrites, there was some rewritting from MACRO to C for
things that had to be rewritten anyway. I don't know of any BLISS to C
conversions, but I haven't been keeping track (I've been a touch busy).
There was some MACRO-64 on Alpha that had to be rewritten (some into C
and some into Itanium Assembly).
Given that this is common source with the OpenVMS Alpha source pool, I'm
guessing there aren't any VAX dependencies.
--
John Reagan
Compaq Pascal/{A|I}MACRO Project Leader
Hewlett-Packard Company
John Smith
>
> Quite right Bill. There's a difference between criticising Alphacide
> and criticising a port to Itanium. I don't remember anybody
> criticising the _principle_ of the latter, even if they did cast
doubt
> on the efficacy of Itanium as a CPU per se. Again, any work done in
> moving the hardware depencies of VMS down the code ladder has got to
> make it easier to put VMS on other platforms.
>
> Now all they've got to do is sell it!
If they ported it to UltraSparc, they'd have it on a platform that has
wide commercial success, a large mindshare, corporate America buy-in.
Just speculating.
Tom Linden
They are buying Sun, not Ultrasparc, just as people buy VMS not Alpha,
the hardware is just the delivery vehicle.
>
>Just speculating.
>
>
>---
>Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
>Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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>
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Main, Kerry
Hey .. He's back ..
:-)
Re: performance of IA64 ..
A bit of history might help you to better understand.
When the initial Alpha systems came out, they were not as powerful as
the larger VAX systems at the time. Over time, as the HW designs,
compilers, tuning etc became much better, the newer Alpha systems pulled
away from even the larger VAX's.
I expect the same to be the case for Alpha--> IPF as well as PA-RISC -->
IPF.
Oh, but you knew that anyway, right?
:-)
Kerry Main
Senior Consultant
Hewlett-Packard (Canada) Co.
Consulting & Integration Services
Voice: 613-592-4660
Fax : 613-591-4477
Email: kerryDOTmain@hpDOTcom
(remove the DOT's and replace with "."'s)
OpenVMS DCL - the original .COM
-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy
[mailto:Andrew_No....@nospamn.sun.com]
Sent: February 3, 2003 8:51 AM
To: Info...@Mvb.Saic.Com
Subject: Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 31
Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy
It depends what you define as technology.
We can argue about SPARC vs Power vs Alpha until
we are blue in the face, but they are only one
component in a system which also includes, compilers
OS, interconnect, etc.
Whatever you may think about Alphas superior technology
which is an opinion you are welcome to, it is a fact
that this technology lead if it existed hasn't translated
itself into a signigicant measurable lead in any kind
of metric that makes a difference to consumers of systems.
For example there is a dearth of current or historic benchmark
results that show that this apparent technology lead is translated
into leading comparative benchmark results.
The only conclusions you can draw from this that either
the technology lead that you thought the combination of
Alpha and its compilers had over other RISC processors
and their compilers is illusory or that whatever lead
Alpha had was easily offset by it being shoehorned into
systems that trailed their competition from a technology
standpoint.
Designing and building a large server is a holistic process
and doesn't begin and end with the CPU is is also something
you clearly don't grasp.
Regards
Andrew Harrison
Bob Koehler
Why should HP go to all that work, when for now the Alpha is faster?
SGI and Unisys aren't exactly leading the industry in sales these
days.
Bob Koehler
>
> When the initial Alpha systems came out, they were not as powerful as
> the larger VAX systems at the time.
They were pretty damn close. I ordered the slowest, cheapest Alpha
DEC made and it ran so close to what a VAX 9000 could do I ignored
the difference.
warren sander
on Friday afternoons.. The folks that update the
boot page were gone for the weekend so we couldn't pull down the contest..
BTW.. Folks that rushed out to fill in the 'correct' date/time after the
boot.. Those entries are not being used. I pulled all the entries and sent
them
to sue before she put out the notice on comp.os.vms.
sue will announce the winners when she gets all the stuff finalized..
"Paul Nankervis" <paul...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:b1kud9$etc$1...@ausnews.austin.ibm.com...
Phillip Helbig
> > the larger VAX systems at the time.
>
> They were pretty damn close. I ordered the slowest, cheapest Alpha
> DEC made and it ran so close to what a VAX 9000 could do I ignored
> the difference.
Even though those early ALPHAs were quite expensive (both in
price/performance AND just price) by today's standards, I'm sure they
were much cheaper (both initial and running costs) than a VAX 9000.
Michael Unger
> [...]
>
> We are please to announce that OpenVMS has booted on an HP i2000 Itanium
> system. By successfully executing a DIRECTORY command the official date and
> time for the Boot Contest is January 31, 2003 3:31 PM EST.
>
> [...]
Apparently the "OpenVMS boot contest" at
http://h18003.www1.hp.com/hps/ipf-enterprise/openvms_contest.html
is still available to participants on 3-Feb-2003 at 14:20 (UTC) ...
Michael
Michael Unger
> [...]
>
> > BTW Does it have a >>> console prompt ?
> >
>
> No. And when/if we provide a VMS boot manager, we won't use >>> so we won't
> confuse people into thinking it's the SRM.
Why??? VAX and Alpha use the very same console prompt and usually
people aren't confused at all ...
(Are you obliged to use "Intel inside>" instead? :-)
Michael
John Wallace
"Larry Kilgallen" <Kilg...@SpamCop.net> wrote in message
(hope the attributions are OK)
I couldn't find a Unisys 64way (see below). Presumably SGI design+make their
own?
The Unisys Itanium 2 machine I did find seems to be related to an earlier
Unisys ES7000 Cellular MultiProcessing box which Compaq attempted to sell as
the Proliant ML770. The one which Compaq gave up on after no more than a
year because they couldn't find enough customers to buy that particular
vendor/hardware/software combination. There's even a story that Gates
ordered Compaq to sell it or else, to prove Windows Datacentre was
enterprise ready.
Anyway, as I read it, the Unisys ES7000 Itanium 2 only goes up to 32 in a
box, and it is actually two independent 16way systems. 16way could class as
large in some markets.
The only reference I could find to a 64-way Unisys Itanium box is a brief
reference to a hypothetical bizarre combination of 32 Xeons and two sets of
16 IA64s in the same box (mentioned briefly in last para of 64way ES7000 URL
below).
However, didn't Fujitsu also recently announce a range of big SMP Itanium 2
machines, up to 128 CPU planned (by 2005 using dualcore CPUs)? Can't find
any real details with a quick glance at Fujitsu Siemens UK website though. A
search for Itanium gives old-hat results. Fujitsu Siemens are an x86 and
SPARC shop today. In fact the only recent Fujitsu Itanium reference I could
google reasonably quickly is the one I read first:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/61/29007.html
Btw, the other thing I found interesting about this little bit of research
is that the Unisys community manages to sustain a monthly magazine. If they
can, what were DEC User etc doing wrong?
regards
john
Proliant ML770 links:
Now you see it: http://www.unisysworld.com/monthly/2000/04/comtoadd.shtml
Now you don't: http://www.unisysworld.com/pressrel/2001/05/01_compaq.shtml
It looked like this: http://www.compaq.com/products/servers/proliantml770
Unisys ES7000 for Itanium 2:
http://www.unisysworld.com/monthly/2002/08/itanium.shtml
64way ES7000: http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/archive/26205.html - last
paragraph.
Fred Kleinsorge
"Bill Todd" <bill...@metrocast.net> wrote in message
news:n3ydnVDq965...@metrocast.net...
>
Bill,
I think it's fair to say that many of your comments here generally can be
characterized in this way -
"I think XXX will fail to YYY, but even if it does succeed, it doesn't
matter because Alpha would have been better."
I also think that you look for joy/validation in the potential failures of
Intel, Microsoft, IPF, HP, various former and current executives, and
ultimately VMS.
Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy
Main, Kerry wrote:
> Andrew,
>
> Hey .. He's back ..
>
> :-)
>
Oh no Kerrys got a bit overconfident and started
posting again. For reasons why this is a bad
idea read on.
> Re: performance of IA64 ..
>
> A bit of history might help you to better understand.
>
Thanks for the "leason" now here is one for you.
> When the initial Alpha systems came out, they were not as powerful as
> the larger VAX systems at the time. Over time, as the HW designs,
> compilers, tuning etc became much better, the newer Alpha systems pulled
> away from even the larger VAX's.
>
Sorry Kerry but this is total BS and not only that but
its BS based on your own public information.
Read
http://h18002.www1.hp.com/alphaserver/performance/vups_297.html
Note its an HP document. Note that the CMOS4 process which was
the first Alpha process was also used to produce the 7000-610
VAX, note the documents performance claims for Alpha vs VAX.
Perhaps a bit more research on your part would help your
argument.
Regards
Andrew Harrison
Tsarkon
count. When I see one, its out. And I doubt anyone would be foolish
enough to waste money on that power hungry monstrosity. Every other
n-way implementation, from Power to SPARC, to MIPS, to HPPA put out
less heat than Itanic.Space.Heater.
And please don't mention Micrsoft's bleating fool-lackey, UniShit. Of
all the piece of garbage companies in the world, UniShit ranks about
-273 degrees C.
As far as SGI goes, it saddens me to see them dabbling in crap. MIPS
is a great CPU architecture.
I can't believe in a VMS group we dont have complete and total lust
for the almighty alpha. I think that this place is going soft, and
that all you people run Windows XP and talk about your HyperThreading
and cant wait to run VMS on an Itanic and waste more of your and your
companies money on crap.
Death to Carly Fiorina. [Echelon, Carnivore, US gestapo troll, NSA and
all the other spy-on-citizen shit, I mean that figureatively]
Fred Kleinsorge
"David J. Dachtera" <djesys...@fsi.net> wrote in message
news:3E3DCDBD...@fsi.net...
> Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> >
> > In article <3e3b4...@news.chariot.net.au>,
> > Mark Daniel <Mark....@wasd.vsm.com.au> writes:
> > > 8< snip 8<
> > >
> > > Many congratulations to VMS Engineering (who in spite of not a few
> > > obstacles and many naysayers have shown, once again, that they can do
> > > whatever they set their minds - and are permitted - to do!)
> > >
> >
> > I don't think that there was anyone here who doubted that engineering
> > could make VMS boot and even run on IA64. The naysayers just doubt it
> > is the path they should be taking.
>
> I'd like to go on record as saying that VMS on Itanic is fine,
> especially if marketable, mass-producible, ready-for-prime-time Itanic
> systems ever see the light of VMS day.
Itanium systems will ship with VMS. The systems exist today, and more and
more are being released, and are on roadmaps. Of course, your insistance on
the insulting reference to the chip architecture says a lot about what you
really think/hope.
> Needless to say, I have my
> doubts, and everyday that Itanic is delayed further fortifies that
> doubt.
>
You can buy Itanium systems today from HP and other vendors. I'm not sure
exactly what your attempt to use the specific chip schedule for future
generation chips has to do with the price of tea in China. It has no effect
on the VMS schedule.
> On the other hand, if Itanic only is the target, than no, that is
> *DEFINITELY* not the path to take, especially now that AMD seems poised
> to take the 64-bit lead.
>
"Poised to ..." seems like the same wishful thinking marketspeak I've heard
before. Let us know when they lead anything other than hype.
> > But that's a managment issue and we
> > all know how good that is.
>
> It would be more correct to say that management, or more correctly, the
> lack thereof, *IS* the issue!
>
> OVMS Engr. is, IMO, by far the greatest bunch of tech. folks you'll ever
> find. I do not hold their loyalty to their management against them. Be
> there a wolf or two among the sheep who has yet to rise up in defense of
> VMS, then such is(are) the one(s) I would hold at fault.
>
Not quite sure I understand what you are trying to say.
Rob Young
> can I buy an 8-way IA-64?
>
http://www.sgi.com/servers/altix/configs.html
SGI Altix 3300 Server SGI Altix 3700 Supercluster
Processors 900 MHz Intel Itanium 2 microprocessors 900 MHz or 1 GHz Intel
Itanium 2 microprocessors
Number of processors 4, 8, or 12 4 to hundreds
Node size (single operating system image) 4-12 CPUs 4-64 CPUs
Rob
Fred Kleinsorge
"John Smith" <a...@nonymous.com> wrote in message
news:8Fv%9.210154$ej1.1...@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
Geez, you can't win. Why would we want to port somthing with no future?
The Itanium2 today is faster than Sparc, and HP will be building large scale
servers that Sparc won't get within spitting distance of. The only thing
holding Sun/Sparc together is loyalty, lock-in, and intertia.
Ooooh. Ooops, I forgot. Andrew will trot out some benchmark dejur (other
than ones they are fading fast on - like Spec) and claim that when running
some specific thing, while standing on one foot, Sun has a benchmark nobody
else has... probably because nobody else cares. Or whine because they way
*they* run some artificial benchmark is somehow more realistic than how *we*
run the artificial benchmark.
Truth is, they've lost the workstation market, and they are fading in the
server market. I admire many of the things that they've done in SW (and
shuddered at some), but am completely unimpressed with their chip
technology - or it's future. They need to port to x86-64, dump Sparc - and
then things would get interesting.
Fred Kleinsorge
"Michael Unger" <un...@decus.de> wrote in message
news:00A1AF37.4...@decus.de...
1) You'd be suprised how many people get confused by things. You just don't
see the complaints.
2) Itanium already has a console. It's called EFI. We don't plan to have
any required VMS firmware.
3) As a VMS-friendly feature, we are hoping to provide a VMS boot manager (a
console application) that will do some things to make life easier - like
translate path names into VMS device names, allow set/show of environment
variables, and provide a boot command line similar to the SRM.
Bill Todd
"Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star-dot-zko-dot-dec-dot-com> wrote in message
news:3e3ea8c5$1...@hpb10302.boi.hp.com...
>
> "Bill Todd" <bill...@metrocast.net> wrote in message
> news:n3ydnVDq965...@metrocast.net...
> >
>
>
> Bill,
>
> I think it's fair to say that many of your comments here generally can be
> characterized in this way -
>
> "I think XXX will fail to YYY, but even if it does succeed, it doesn't
> matter because Alpha would have been better."
And *I* think it is fair to say that such generalizations (with, of course,
no supporting citations - something I'm considerably more careful to
provide) tend to be full of shit - not to mention being 100.00% false if
applied (as you appear to be attempting to) to this particular topic.
>
> I also think that you look for joy/validation in the potential failures of
> Intel, Microsoft, IPF, HP, various former and current executives, and
> ultimately VMS.
Your misconceptions are your problem, Fred, not mine.
- bill
John Smith
"Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star-dot-zko-dot-dec-dot-com> wrote in
Come on Fred...with a Sparc port pretty soon everyone will be calling
OpenVMS the 'Portable Linux of Real Operating Systems' (tm). :-)
So if x86-64 is good enough for Sun to move their high-end servers to,
HP would also port OpenVMS to x86-64 and dump IA-64?
Fred Kleinsorge
>
>
> Come on Fred...with a Sparc port pretty soon everyone will be calling
> OpenVMS the 'Portable Linux of Real Operating Systems' (tm). :-)
>
> So if x86-64 is good enough for Sun to move their high-end servers to,
> HP would also port OpenVMS to x86-64 and dump IA-64?
>
I don't think I've ever said that x86-64 can't work. But it doesn't have
any
compelling reason for HP to dump IA64 in favor of it. It is our PA-RISC
replacement.
What I think is:
o Compaq was looking for a chip partner for the UNIX market, and Intel
was the one they picked *for whatever reason* - perhaps it was for
business reasons, perhaps it was technical - or a combination.
So IA64 is what we were given.
o HP was looking for a chip partner for the UNIX market, and helped to
design IA64 as a PA-RISC replacement.
o Aside from an infrastructure point of view (firmware for example) -
I'm sure x86-64 could be a "reasonable" architecture.
So we're here.
x86-64 has plenty of merit when viewed as a 64-bit upgrade to the IA32
market. That is really it's strength. It only has any meaning if AMD is
able
to A) compete in price/performance with IA32; and B) they can find a
server systems vendor who will build the high margin and high end systems
out of it.
Sun is saddled with an aging, toothless Sparc architecture, and will need to
dump millions into it to make it competetive. At a time when they are
bleeding
red ink and can't really afford the R&D. Plus, since they are FABless,
they will always have a problem getting onto the bleeding edge processes in
a timely way. IA64 can't hold much interest for them, because they lose
some
of their ability to differentiate themselves from HP and others. x86-64
would
be a way of placing the bet on who will win, and differentiating themselves.
The worst case scenerio for Itanium, is that its use is confined to mostly
the
UNIX/Linux market for servers. HP, SGI, and others. Best case, it makes
inroads into the Windows server market, and becomes an alternative to IA32
at least for Windows servers, and spreads to other server vendors.
x86-64 right now is placing all it's bets on the Windows market, and perhaps
to some degree the Linux market. They don't have a systems vendor lined up
aside from the ones, like perhaps a Dell, who will build IA32-replacement
systems *if* the price/performance *and* margins are there for them.
Fred Kleinsorge
month old "news" clip). It's about the oddest thing I've ever read for a
press release or a real news article. Makes you wonder exactly who is
building these magic x86-64 boxes.
http://www.newisys.com/news/news_csi462_12Aug2002.htm
Keith Parris
> HP Calculators? Not profitable enough - fire
> all the engineers in the calculator division. Shut the division down.
> HP Calculators. Gone.
Oh, really? Check this out:
HP Expands Its Calculator Line with Two New Offerings
http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/newsroom/press/2003/030123b.html
Bob Koehler
VAX 9000 start in the US $1,000,000 or more. My little Alpha cost
us US $20,000 or so. It was cheap in price and price/performance.
(We had bought MV 3300s just a couple years before for about
$25,000.)
Dave Gudewicz
efforts.
All technical hurdles aside, and I believe VMS engineering can easily leap
over all of them, I'm hoping for VMS on IA-64 to be a commercial success,
which is where the difficulties will be if past history is any guide.
Spreading the word far and wide; beyond the current faithful would be nice.
Getting the Sales force up to speed would be nice. All of them involved
with enterprise computing, not just a chosen few.
Getting current ISVs on board. Getting new stuff on board. Getting the
doomsayers on board. Getting VMS mindshare back on board. Getting VMS back
on board in edu big time. Heck, getting hp on board by not saying "it's not
a growth platform" would be nice. I still don't know what that means.
Exactly.
Not saying any of the above is easy, but w/o such efforts where is VMS
headed?
In addition to the engineering efforts, which have been excellent, VMS
needs: the culture, the people, the attitude to make things change for the
better. And in many cases, VMS *is* better.
Hans Vlems
"Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star-dot-zko-dot-dec-dot-com> schreef in
bericht news:3e3eaefd$1...@hpb10302.boi.hp.com...
that third remark answered the question that was somewhat hidden in the
actaul text :-)
My main gripe with I386 boxes is that the BIOS interface is not very smart,
even though
it allows a lot of customization of the machine.
But my systems (and the ones at work) do not boot automatically, but wait at
the boot
prompt instead. That allows for operator checks that are more difficult to
do with a BIOS interface.
So a VMS boot manager would be appreciated, I gues I'm not the only one.
Hans
JF Mezei
> Now all they've got to do is sell it!
No, not yet. I think that the VMS group, hopefully to be spun off into a
speratae company and allowed to thrive independantly, should not start to sell
VMS on IA64.
The minute you sell a IA64 based VMS system, you commit to at least 5 years of
support. That will greatly add to the costs.
The longer they wait before releasing VMS on IA64, the better it is. Not only
does this give them a chance to cancel productization of VMS on IA64 if/when
IA64 fails in the marketplace, but in the mean time, it reduces costs since
they have one less platform to support.
JF Mezei
> sue will announce the winners when she gets all the stuff finalized..
Hope you will strictly enforce the restriction that render ineligible anyone
who is friends with or has met any of the engineers. :-) :-) :-) ;-)
Brian Tillman
Skonetski. Any relationship?
--
Brian Tillman Internet: Brian.Tillman at smiths-aerospace dot com
Smiths Aerospace Addresses modified to prevent SPAM.
3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS Replace "at" with "@", "dot" with "."
Grand Rapids, MI 49512-1991
This opinion doesn't represent that of my company
Fred Kleinsorge
Steve is Sue's husband.
"Brian Tillman" <tillma...@notnoone.notnohow.com> wrote in message
news:3e3ee4b6$1...@news.si.com...
Russell Wallace
<susan.s...@hp.nospam.com> wrote:
>We are please to announce that OpenVMS has booted on an HP i2000 Itanium
>system. By successfully executing a DIRECTORY command the official date and
>time for the Boot Contest is January 31, 2003 3:31 PM EST.
Well done! Congratulations to everyone involved.
(Not personally a VMS user, but it's nice to see someone with success
to celebrate :))
--
"Mercy to the guilty is treachery to the innocent."
Remove killer rodent from address to reply.
http://www.esatclear.ie/~rwallace
John Smith
"Keith Parris" <keithparr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:cf15391e.03020...@posting.google.com...
A bit OT: http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/newsroom/press/2003/030103a.html
Marcello & Gorham better make sure that Burson-Marsteller know how to
spell OpenVMS and Alphaserver really well. I'd suggest for starters
that they write it in 144-point type ten thousand times across the
pages of the Wall Street Journal and lots of technical magazines.
John Smith
"JF Mezei" <jfmezei...@vl.videotron.ca> wrote in message
news:3E3ED59D...@vl.videotron.ca...
Everyone knows that an engineer's best friend is their pocket
protector.
Bill Todd
Good Lord! You must be even older than I am!
- bill
Hoff Hoffman
In article <b1j3oe$13c9ua$1...@ID-143435.news.dfncis.de>, "Hans Vlems" <hvl...@iae.nl> writes:
:
:"Sue Skonetski" <susan.s...@hp.nospam.com> schreef in bericht
:news:b1et1g$1nc$1...@web1.cup.hp.com...
:> -----Original Message-----
:>
:
:Congratulations !
:After VAX/VMS, AXP/VMS there's now I64/VMS ....
..
:BTW Does it have a >>> console prompt ?
Not yet. :-)
If you want to see details of what folks are working with, please see
the Extensible Firmware Interface (EFI) console specifications from the
Intel developer website -- developer.intel.com, IIRC. The EFI shell
looks like a cross between the MS-DOS and UNIX command shells.
Just remember the EFI command:
HELP -B
This is the command that the HELP text indicates will parcel out the
help text output (akin to UNIX more and other screen-at-a-time output
tools), but that and a few other EFI commands scroll by far too fast
to see without using the -B. :-)
We have various enhancements in mind for the console environment, and
there are certainly many various and quite useful capabilities already
integrated into the default EFI console environment.
---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------
For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com
--------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------
Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman OpenVMS Engineering hoff[at]hp.com
Carl Perkins
}Snore. Snore. Snore. Itanium is a pipe dream. I hope you know. Where
}can I buy an 8-way IA-64?
You might try SGI. They have reently posted SpecRate benchmarks for systems
with 16, 32, and 64 Itanium2 processors so they must be either available
now, or available real soon. Since they have those, they probably also have
a smaller 8 processor system.
--- Carl
John Smith
Not quite sure that I qualify for 'fossil' status yet. But when I
started Engineering school, pocket protectors and K&E slide rules were
still in vogue, complete with belt loops. First calculator I owned was
an HP-45, also with belt loops - still have it in my drawer, right
beside my K&E. Still use the K&E occasionally so I don't forget how.
My daughter thinks the slide rule rocks, so I'm teaching her how to
use it.
Hoff Hoffman
In article <b1mjf9$1401cb$1...@ID-143435.news.dfncis.de>, "Hans Vlems" <hvl...@iae.nl> writes:
:My main gripe with I386 boxes is that the BIOS interface is not very smart,
:even though it allows a lot of customization of the machine.
:But my systems (and the ones at work) do not boot automatically, but wait
:at the boot prompt instead. That allows for operator checks that are more
:difficult to do with a BIOS interface.
EFI is far beyond any IA-32 BIOS-like scheme I've seen or used, and EFI
easily provides the requested power-up options -- you can boot into the
EFI shell, for instance -- among many other capabilities. By default.
EFI shows you a list of the local bootable disk devices it has found,
for instance, and has simple customization and boot-order support. (SRM
can show you the disk devices that are present, of course, but EFI can
identify the disks and the operating system(s) that are resident.)
The EFI shell is a reasonably powerful and effective command environment
for a system console. (HELP lists a couple-dozen commands.) EFI has
some specific and significant advantages over SRM. Some weirdnesses,
too. (This statement is not intended to imply that the SRM console had
any particular shortage of weirdnesses. :-)
Both SRM and EFI are capable of providing a system console for OpenVMS,
and in meeting the expectations of OpenVMS system managers.
Both SRM and EFI have some cool features, too. :-)
The boot manager stuff would be intended to simplify the EFI environment
and console environment management for folks used to OpenVMS Alpha and
the Alpha SRM console, as well as for diagnostics, and for support of
specific hardware and specific system configurations. As extensions to
the EFI environment and to the available EFI tools and diagnostics.
Please see the available Intel Itanium information and particularly the
available EFI specifications for details on the console environment and
capabilities. http://developer.intel.com/.
Bill Gunshannon
"Bill Todd" <bill...@metrocast.net> writes:
>
> "John Smith" <a...@nonymous.com> wrote in message
> news:v_C%9.546850$F2h1....@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
>>
>> protector.
>
> Good Lord! You must be even older than I am!
>
Even I stopped wearing one of those a couple years ago, :-)
bill
--
Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
bi...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton |
Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
JF Mezei
>
> Steve is Sue's husband.
Does Sue treat all engineers equally, or does Steve get preferential treatment
when the time comes for Sue to feed the engineers in their habitat ?
:-) :-) :-)
JF Mezei
> We have various enhancements in mind for the console environment, and
> there are certainly many various and quite useful capabilities already
> integrated into the default EFI console environment.
If I may make a suggestion out fo the blue.
If your EFI environment could be used to boot other operating systems, such as
Linuz especially, it would be a good PR move to make it available to anyone
and everyone on the VMS web site.
This way, the Linux community would hear about VMS doing good things, they
would go to the VMS web site, download the "improved" EFI environment, try it
on their machine and see how much better it woudl be than the one that came
with the machine/linux. They would then have a favourable opinion of VMS.
Michael Unger
> [...]
>
> Plus, since they [SUN] are FABless,
> they will always have a problem getting onto the bleeding edge processes in
> a timely way.
>
> [...]
So what exactly was the reason Compaq went FABless too ???
Michael
Fred Kleinsorge
> Hoff Hoffman wrote:
> > We have various enhancements in mind for the console environment, and
> > there are certainly many various and quite useful capabilities already
> > integrated into the default EFI console environment.
>
> If I may make a suggestion out fo the blue.
>
> If your EFI environment could be used to boot other operating systems,
such as
> Linuz especially, it would be a good PR move to make it available to
anyone
> and everyone on the VMS web site.
>
We are using *the* EFI environment. So you can imagine a system that starts
up, puts you into an EFI boot screen, with VMS, Linux, HP-UX, and Windows
boot disks that you can select with a Down Arrow and Return.
That *is* the plan. That *is* what I'd like to clearly show.
In *addition* to that, VMS wants to provide a optional VMS-specific boot
manager (this is loaded from disk by EFI) that would allow system managers
to set boot options, and view devices in a VMS-friendly way... including a
"boot" command if they want to start it right from there.
> This way, the Linux community would hear about VMS doing good things, they
> would go to the VMS web site, download the "improved" EFI environment, try
it
> on their machine and see how much better it woudl be than the one that
came
> with the machine/linux. They would then have a favourable opinion of VMS.
Don't think this really applies well. One of the main things we are doing
this for is so you don't need to know how to figure out what VMS device
(like DKA0) a EFI pathname is. Or how to set the now familiar boot os
flags. Or specify a dump device. None of these things seem useful for
Linux.
Fred Kleinsorge
Because unless you are building millions chips, keeping up with the process
race is very expensive. Not having a FAB seemed to make things a bit
harder, and I think lengthened the schedules (just my outside observation).
The chip builders, like Intel and IBM have a real advantage for building
high performance chips from the process perspective.
John Smith
"Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star-dot-zko-dot-dec-dot-com> wrote in
>
> We are using *the* EFI environment. So you can imagine a system
that starts
> up, puts you into an EFI boot screen, with VMS, Linux, HP-UX, and
Windows
> boot disks that you can select with a Down Arrow and Return.
>
What about MS-Dos for us diehards?
Brian Tillman
As I suspected.
Hans Vlems
> If you want to see details of what folks are working with, please see
> the Extensible Firmware Interface (EFI) console specifications from the
> Intel developer website -- developer.intel.com, IIRC. The EFI shell
> looks like a cross between the MS-DOS and UNIX command shells.
>
> Just remember the EFI command:
>
> HELP -B
>
> This is the command that the HELP text indicates will parcel out the
> help text output (akin to UNIX more and other screen-at-a-time output
> tools), but that and a few other EFI commands scroll by far too fast
> to see without using the -B. :-)
>
> We have various enhancements in mind for the console environment, and
> there are certainly many various and quite useful capabilities already
> integrated into the default EFI console environment.
>
"remembering" an EFI command is somewhat difficult since I've never seen EFI
in my life.
Now If I were to win the boot contest and HP would ship me a 2600 that would
solve this problem very nice indeed :-)
but I visited Intel and downloaded information, including C sources for EFI.
That'll teach me something.
Thanks,
Hans
Hans Vlems
"John Smith" <a...@nonymous.com> schreef in bericht
news:fjF%9.255986$pDv.1...@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
cute elaborate measuring tool :-)
Hans Vlems
> Please see the available Intel Itanium information and particularly the
> available EFI specifications for details on the console environment and
> capabilities. http://developer.intel.com/.
>
you Hoff