macOS Terminal app. Numeric keypad fails for EDT.

[alanfe...@gmail.com]

Got my new Mac. Old one was running Mojave. Terminal on EISNER works fine for editing. My new Mac is running Monterey. I run Terminal, open a file in EDT, and the numbers on the numeric keypad do nothing. They also do nothing at a DCL prompt. Also, the PF1-4 keys work from F1-F4, and F12 is BEGINNING OF LINE.

Is there some secret setting I'm missing? Or do I need a 3rd-party app? And if so, can anyone here recommend one? Thanks!

[Arne Vajhøj]

What terminal type does VMS think it is?

$ show term

If it is lacking in DEC_CRT* attributes then

$ set term/dev=vt400

or similar.

Arne

[Craig A. Berry]

It doesn't look like they're secret. Go to Preferences --> Profiles -->
Keyboard and you can add all the key mappings you want. You can even
create a VMS-friendly profile if you want different settings from what
you use for other things (or want it to automatically log in to your VMS
system, for example).

I've never done this with Terminal, only iTerm2, but I did that at a
time when Terminal did not have the keyboard mapping capability some
years ago and have never bothered to do all the set-up for Terminal.

[alanfe...@gmail.com]

I never had to do it before. I always used $ set term/inq and it would work. That was using Mojave::Terminal. OK, I tried it anyway. Nope. Doesn't work.

[Arne Vajhøj]

On 9/20/2022 3:08 PM, alanfe...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 20, 2022 at 10:02:40 AM UTC-4, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> On 9/20/2022 9:31 AM, alanfe...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> Got my new Mac. Old one was running Mojave. Terminal on EISNER works
>>> fine for editing. My new Mac is running Monterey. I run Terminal,
>>> open a file in EDT, and the numbers on the numeric keypad do nothing.
>>> They also do nothing at a DCL prompt. Also, the PF1-4 keys work from
>>> F1-F4, and F12 is BEGINNING OF LINE.
>>>
>>> Is there some secret setting I'm missing? Or do I need a 3rd-party
>>> app? And if so, can anyone here recommend one? Thanks!
>> What terminal type does VMS think it is?
>>
>> $ show term
>>
>> If it is lacking in DEC_CRT* attributes then
>>
>> $ set term/dev=vt400
>>
>> or similar.
>

> I never had to do it before. I always used $ set term/inq and it
> would work. That was using Mojave::Terminal. OK, I tried it anyway.
> Nope. Doesn't work.

If VMS knows the terminal type, then it must be the
emulators keyboard mapping that need to be fixed.

Craig posted some guidance for that.

Arne

[alanfe...@gmail.com]

I already tried that. You can't map to those keys. They are simply not listed in the key drop-down.

But it turns out it's even worse than that. The numbers on the numeric keypad don't work in other apps, like Mail and BBedit!!! this is even worse than the grayed-out shortcuts on all the drop-down menus! I can't use the numbers on the numeric keybad for anything!

Well, two things:

1. I can struggle with workarounds: redefine the function keys.

2. Work as normal on my old Mac, which I have set up on the dining room table.

This is UFB. Oh, Shift-5 is paste. Lovely.

[alanfe...@gmail.com]

Nope. It's the stupid OS. The keys don't work in other apps, either.

No sir, I don't like it!!!

Am I the only one in the newsgroup that uses a Mac to access an OpenVMS box?

More than a couple grand and the stupid thing doesn't work. I just tried a third keyboard. Still doesn't work. Except sometimes I'm switched to a different app. Pressing 5 hides the Dock if the Dock is already up. (>_<) Is that the "angry" emoticon?

[Robert A. Brooks]

On 9/20/2022 3:28 PM, alanfe...@gmail.com wrote:

> Am I the only one in the newsgroup that uses a Mac to access an OpenVMS box?

Many folks at VSI use Macs to access VMS (I am not one of them).

They don't have the problems you apparently are having.

--
-- Rob

[Steven Schweda]

> Am I the only one in the newsgroup that uses a Mac to access an
> OpenVMS box?

I use XQuartz > Terminal (xterm). With a little xmodmap action, it
does what I need. I haven't noticed any new (xterm) trouble with
Monterey (12.5.1, on a Pro (Late 2013)) compared with Mojave (10.14.6 on
a Pro (Mid 2010)).

[alanfe...@gmail.com]

It's beginning to look like the fault is with macOS 12.6. I was on 12.2.1, and I called Apple Care for something else that broke, and they said to update to the latest version.

I am currently investigating things like Mouse Keys. The numbers do move the text cursor (not the mouse pointer) around in BBEdit, at least. Still working on it.

This is why I hate updates and upgrades. Something always breaks, and it's usually or always something important.

Note that the numeric keypad number keys don't work in other apps, like Mail and BBEdit, except to move the cursor around.

OMG! It's working now! I must have stumbled upon the correct setting, but I'm not sure which one it is!

Continuing . . .

[Dave Froble]

My question is why are you trying to use the stupid app that comes with the
stupid OS? Lots of free terminal emulators available. Some that cost a bit
too. Choose your tools wisely. Or be unhappy.

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: da...@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486

[Dave Froble]

Perhaps numeric keypad mode vs app keypad mode ??????

[John H. Reinhardt]

On 9/20/2022 2:28 PM, alanfe...@gmail.com wrote:

>
> Am I the only one in the newsgroup that uses a Mac to access an OpenVMS box?
>

I'm on a Mac and have used it for years and years. But I have a MacPro 2009 and I'm stuck at Mojave. I don't use Apple's Terminal. I use Em-Tec's ZOC. It cost me $80 back when and another $29 to upgrade about 6 years later but worth it. I also use a Matias Tactile Pro 4 (and Quiet Pro) Mac keyboard that has the proper # of keys on it's keypad. I've also used iTerm and iTerm2 over the years but I prefer ZOC. Works just dandy with all my VMS needs from DEC VAX/VMS 5.5 to VSI OpenVMS V8.4-2L1

https://www.emtec.com/zoc/index.html
http://matias.ca/tactilepro4/
http://matias.ca/tactilepro4/viewer/?p=2



--
John H. Reinhardt

[Craig A. Berry]

On 9/20/22 2:21 PM, alanfe...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 20, 2022 at 10:17:05 AM UTC-4, Craig A. Berry wrote:
>> On 9/20/22 8:31 AM, alanfe...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> Got my new Mac. Old one was running Mojave. Terminal on EISNER works
>>> fine for editing. My new Mac is running Monterey. I run Terminal,
>>> open a file in EDT, and the numbers on the numeric keypad do
>>> nothing. They> also do nothing at a DCL prompt. Also, the PF1-4 keys
>>> work from F1-F4, and F12 is BEGINNING OF LINE.
>>
>>> Is there some secret setting I'm missing? Or do I need a 3rd-party
>>> app? And if so, can anyone here recommend one? Thanks!

>> It doesn't look like they're secret. Go to Preferences --> Profiles -->
>> Keyboard and you can add all the key mappings you want. You can even
>> create a VMS-friendly profile if you want different settings from what
>> you use for other things (or want it to automatically log in to your VMS
>> system, for example).
>>
>> I've never done this with Terminal, only iTerm2, but I did that at a
>> time when Terminal did not have the keyboard mapping capability some
>> years ago and have never bothered to do all the set-up for Terminal.
>

> I already tried that. You can't map to those keys. They are simply
> not listed in the key drop-down.

They are there. They are even called PF1, PF2, PF3, PF4, etc. This with
Terminal 2.12.7 on macOS 12.6, vt102 selected in the Advanced tab for
"Declare terminal as."

[Steven Schweda]

> They are there. They are even called PF1, PF2, PF3, PF4, etc. This with
> Terminal 2.12.7 on macOS 12.6, vt102 selected in the Advanced tab for
> "Declare terminal as."

I don't see them here, either. Terminal Version 2.12.7 (445), macOS
12.5.1.

[alanfe...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, September 20, 2022 at 7:46:16 PM UTC-4, Dave Froble wrote:
> On 9/20/2022 3:34 PM, Robert A. Brooks wrote:
> > On 9/20/2022 3:28 PM, alanfe...@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> >> Am I the only one in the newsgroup that uses a Mac to access an OpenVMS box?
> >
> > Many folks at VSI use Macs to access VMS (I am not one of them).
> >
> > They don't have the problems you apparently are having.
> >
> My question is why are you trying to use the stupid app that comes with the
> stupid OS? Lots of free terminal emulators available. Some that cost a bit
> too. Choose your tools wisely. Or be unhappy.

Because for years it has worked fine. All the keys work. I finally have an app, already in place, already "paid for," that works fine.

It's like in grad school where, in my group, we all shared a VAX 11/750. We eventually got some VMS Workstations running DECwindows. All anyone ever did was open up some DECterm windows. Oh, and the occasional "X-window" (or whatever it's called) for plots. We didn't have the time or the need to hunt down alternatives to DECterm.

What do I gain with the other apps? I also have to hunt them down, read reviews, spend time on it, and for what? What big gains do I make? What free or even paid alternative would not have had this problem? The problem was some incorrect OS setting, most likely having to do with Mousekeys. But I thought I had checked that, and it didn't help to turn it off. I would also get the sequence of 6,5 for some reason always switching me to the mail app, and happens to be 6th in line on the Dock. Tried to reproduce it after having found the problem, but most of the time the 6,5 sequence would do nothing. Oh, and 5 would often act as paste, or select a line in BBEdit. Strange doings!

Anyway, it works now. Sorry for botherin' y'all. I thought I had exhausted my leads. Well, of course I continued looking for a solution. Whatever.

As to the other part of your question:

I _already have_ the "stupid OS," and it does have some serious stupidities in it (are there any that don't?), because I use Final Cut, which doesn't run on any other system. Well, initially it seemed a better option than Windows. Only later did I get Final Cut. And as far as I can tell, Final Cut is pretty good -- mostly. Sure makes more sense than iMovie10. And it's a Mac with the M1 chip, so it's superfast. I'm hoping that the next time I do noise reduction on some movies it won't take a long time and crank up the fans from the GPU going full steam! (BTW, I use NeatVideo instead of the Final Cut noise reduction, as the Final cut noise reduction makes things look grimy.) Hey, I could go on, if you want!

> --
> David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
> Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: da...@tsoft-inc.com
> DFE Ultralights, Inc.
> 170 Grimplin Road
> Vanderbilt, PA 15486

Alan

[alanfe...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, September 20, 2022 at 8:43:06 PM UTC-4, John H. Reinhardt wrote:
> On 9/20/2022 2:28 PM, alanfe...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> >
> > Am I the only one in the newsgroup that uses a Mac to access an OpenVMS box?
> >
> I'm on a Mac and have used it for years and years. But I have a MacPro 2009 and I'm stuck at Mojave. I don't use Apple's Terminal. I use Em-Tec's ZOC. It cost me $80 back when and another $29 to upgrade about 6 years later but worth it. I also use a Matias Tactile Pro 4 (and Quiet Pro) Mac keyboard that has the proper # of keys on it's keypad. I've also used iTerm and iTerm2 over the years but I prefer ZOC. Works just dandy with all my VMS needs from DEC VAX/VMS 5.5 to VSI OpenVMS V8.4-2L1

[End of original message]

[Beginning of my reply]

I was on Mojave for years. Kept on it so that I could continue using QuickTime 7 Pro. Finally got a new Mac for various reasons, including lack of support, and the risk of not finding parts! I also have a Matias Tactile Pro (but I think it's feel is too hard. Maybe the quiet one is better. I hear the IBM something-or-other has the best feel, but how to get one and how to make it work on the Mac and with the numeric keypad missing a key, etc.)

Terminal comes with the Mac and it works fine. I see no reason to spend money on others. Oh, Terminal wasn't so good until the key customizations were good enough to map the top row of the numeric keypad. I forget when that happened. Mr. Schweda pointed that out years ago, I think. Anyway, everything works great now. Still going through "growing pains" from the upgrade, though. Apple doesn't give a shi_ about backward-compatibility, and VMS cares a little too much! We still have that dumb CLI/terminal/whatever user interface (can't delete after wrap-around, etc.)

Hey, the keyboard that comes with the Mac also has the full numeric keypad, which PC's don't. I got the Matias because I hated the Mac keyboard for other reasons. The new one has the finger ID bit. I can keep that on the side for that!

>
> https://www.emtec.com/zoc/index.html
> http://matias.ca/tactilepro4/
> http://matias.ca/tactilepro4/viewer/?p=2
>
>
>
> --
> John H. Reinhardt

Alan Feldman

[alanfe...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, September 20, 2022 at 7:48:00 PM UTC-4, Dave Froble wrote:
> On 9/20/2022 4:15 PM, alanfe...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Tuesday, September 20, 2022 at 3:57:58 PM UTC-4, Steven Schweda wrote:
> >>> Am I the only one in the newsgroup that uses a Mac to access an
> >>> OpenVMS box?
> >> I use XQuartz > Terminal (xterm). With a little xmodmap action, it
> >> does what I need. I haven't noticed any new (xterm) trouble with
> >> Monterey (12.5.1, on a Pro (Late 2013)) compared with Mojave (10.14.6 on
> >> a Pro (Mid 2010)).
> >
> > It's beginning to look like the fault is with macOS 12.6. I was on 12.2.1, and I called Apple Care for something else that broke, and they said to update to the latest version.
> >
> > I am currently investigating things like Mouse Keys. The numbers do move the text cursor (not the mouse pointer) around in BBEdit, at least. Still working on it.
> >
> > This is why I hate updates and upgrades. Something always breaks, and it's usually or always something important.
> >
> > Note that the numeric keypad number keys don't work in other apps, like Mail and BBEdit, except to move the cursor around.
> >
> > OMG! It's working now! I must have stumbled upon the correct setting, but I'm not sure which one it is!
> >
> > Continuing . . .
> >
> Perhaps numeric keypad mode vs app keypad mode ??????

Nope. Thought of that. But nope. It was Mousekeys or some mystery setting related to it.

[alanfe...@gmail.com]

That's not the problem. Those are actually among the keys that DO work!
It's the . and 0 thru 9 that don't work, and in Terminal, they are not on the drop-down menu in the Key field, and you can't type them in, either.

[Johnny Billquist]

I use XQuartz as well, and you don't need any xmodmap action at all.
xterm works correctly directly out of the box, assuming you just tell
xterm that you want it to behave like a vt terminal, and so on.
Can be done on the command line, or through x resources.

For the OP, I would also suggest switching to xterm. It is a much better
terminal emulation than the terminal app, it's free, and contains no
funny stuff at all.

Johnny

[alanfe...@gmail.com]

Why? It wasn't the problem, and all is well now.
Better how?
Terminal contains no funny stuff I'm aware of.
>
> Johnny

[VAXman-]

In article <fc97f4a2-6e47-4dc8...@googlegroups.com>, "alanfe...@gmail.com" <alanfe...@gmail.com> writes:
>Got my new Mac. Old one was running Mojave. Terminal on EISNER works fine f=
>or editing. My new Mac is running Monterey. I run Terminal, open a file in =
>EDT, and the numbers on the numeric keypad do nothing. They also do nothing=
> at a DCL prompt. Also, the PF1-4 keys work from F1-F4, and F12 is BEGINNIN=
>G OF LINE.
>
>Is there some secret setting I'm missing? Or do I need a 3rd-party app? And=

> if so, can anyone here recommend one? Thanks!

I'm still on Big Sewer and regretting ever allowing that update.

I never really cared for the Terminal app. It functions when in a pinch but I
have been using iTerm/iTerm2 for years. When I need to, I "$ CREATE/TERMINAL"
because I have XQuartz installed. The keyboard has never been any problem but
now that you've reported this, there's another reason to never upgrade again.

--
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

I speak to machines with the voice of humanity.

[Craig A. Berry]

Hmm. I must've added them at some point but can't remember how. It
sounds like Alan's problem was some accessibility setting he didn't
want, possibly this one:
<https://support.apple.com/guide/mac-help/control-the-pointer-using-mouse-keys-mh27469/mac>

[Craig A. Berry]

On 9/21/22 3:51 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> On 2022-09-20 21:57, Steven Schweda wrote:
>>> Am I the only one in the newsgroup that uses a Mac to access an
>>> OpenVMS box?
>>
>>     I use XQuartz > Terminal (xterm).  With a little xmodmap action, it
>> does what I need.  I haven't noticed any new (xterm) trouble with
>> Monterey (12.5.1, on a Pro (Late 2013)) compared with Mojave (10.14.6 on
>> a Pro (Mid 2010)).
>
> I use XQuartz as well, and you don't need any xmodmap action at all.
> xterm works correctly directly out of the box, assuming you just tell
> xterm that you want it to behave like a vt terminal, and so on.
> Can be done on the command line, or through x resources.

I just tried it with XQuartz 2.8.2. VMS recognizes it as VT400_Series
with "VMS Style Input," but backspace is mapped to control-H, not
backspace and the most basic keypad editing in TPU throws all kinds of
errors such as error in escape sequence, unrecognized escape sequence,
unmapped keys, etc. So yes, a lot of key mapping would be necessary,
plus some way to set the size bigger than 24 x 80 and find a readable
font. No doubt that's all possible with enough fiddling.

[Robert A. Brooks]

On 9/21/2022 9:30 AM, Craig A. Berry wrote:

> I just tried it with XQuartz 2.8.2.  VMS recognizes it as VT400_Series
> with "VMS Style Input," but backspace is mapped to control-H,

$ SET TERM /BACKSPACE = DELETE


--
-- Rob

[Bill Gunshannon]

On 9/21/22 09:30, Craig A. Berry wrote:
>
>
>
> I just tried it with XQuartz 2.8.2.  VMS recognizes it as VT400_Series
> with "VMS Style Input," but backspace is mapped to control-H, not
> backspace

Ummm... BACKSPACE is control-H. At least as defined by ASCII.
The BACKSPACE key in most of the terminals I have used sends DELETE
but also most terminal programs I have used have the built in option
to map it either way.

bill

[Craig A. Berry]

Yes, it is a setting in the terminal or emulator, usually the default
setting, but not on xterm, which purportedly needs no configuration. I
maintain that it does need configuration.

[alanfe...@gmail.com]

Yes, but I could swear that at one point Mouse Keys was turned off and the problem persisted. And I couldn't reproduce certain aspects of the strange behavior afterwards.

[alanfe...@gmail.com]

Yeah, macOS upgrades always seem to cause something cool to break or go bye-bye. But my internal hard drive died, not easy to replace, the machine is 7 years old, meaning Apple doesn't make parts for it anymore and will refuse to service it even for money, and the new M1 chip should definitely come in handy with NeatVideo noise reduction in my movies! (Final Cut has its own Noise Reduction function (which, IIRC, is also quite slow), but it doesn't work that well, and you can't fully turn off the sharpness setting, which seems to be what makes the result look a little grungy.)

VAXMAN, since you have Big Sur (uh, Big Sewer), do you have the same problem where ALL the shortcuts in the drop-down menus from the menu bar are all grayed out? At first I thought it was a bug and their possibly non-existent QA department was asleep at the wheel. Then, on the Apple "Support Communities" board, someone said it was by design. Say what? That is so hard to believe, I ruled it out without even consciously thinking about it. I asked why anyone would want it that way. The poster responded, Why would anyone not want it that way? A troll? An idiot? In order to stay in the good graces of the Apple police, I pretended it was a serious statement and proceeded to explain how stupid it is.

Someone else said it might be as old as Big Sur. So Sir, are ALL the shortcuts -- and I do mean including the active ones where the English part isn't grayed out -- grayed out? Or was that introduced in Catalina or Monterey, if you happen to know?

BTW, Terminal has worked fine for me, once they finally allowed me to map Clear, =, /, and * to the PFs. Actually, there is one problem: EDT (and I would guess other editors -- I should try them!) full screen mode wipes out part of the history buffer! Other than that, I've customized the font and am pretty happy with it. It's free and it's already there.

BTW, "Big Sewer" is definitely funnier than "WEENdoze."

[Single Stage to Orbit]

On Wed, 2022-09-21 at 10:45 -0700, alanfe...@gmail.com wrote:
> BTW, Terminal has worked fine for me, once they finally allowed me to
> map Clear, =, /, and * to the PFs. Actually, there is one problem:
> EDT (and I would guess other editors -- I should try them!) full
> screen mode wipes out part of the history buffer! Other than that,
> I've customized the font and am pretty happy with it. It's free and
> it's already there.

I recently found a TrueType font 'Glass VT220' that looks exacrly like
a DEC VT220, set the text to green and background to black, set
terminal width and height to 132 columns and 43 columns and it's just
like I'm sat in front of a VT220 terminal in my Unversity days. Bliss.
--
Tactical Nuclear Kittens

[gah4]

On Tuesday, September 20, 2022 at 6:31:17 AM UTC-7, alanfe...@gmail.com wrote:

(snip)
> Is there some secret setting I'm missing? Or do I need a 3rd-party app? And if so, can anyone here recommend one? Thanks!

I often use terminal to ssh into Linux boxes.

It seems that $term is xterm-256color.
It is also that on OS X itself.

I haven't tried it from OS X to VMS recently, so I am not sure about that one.

Does VMS know about xterm-256color?

[VAXman-]

In article <af1f4659-efb8-428d...@googlegroups.com>, "alanfe...@gmail.com" <alanfe...@gmail.com> writes:
>On Wednesday, September 21, 2022 at 7:04:23 AM UTC-4, VAXman- wrote:

>> In article <fc97f4a2-6e47-4dc8...@googlegroups.com>, "alanfe...@gmail.com=
>" <alanfe...@gmail.com> writes:=20
>> >Got my new Mac. Old one was running Mojave. Terminal on EISNER works fin=
>e f=3D=20
>> >or editing. My new Mac is running Monterey. I run Terminal, open a file =
>in =3D=20
>> >EDT, and the numbers on the numeric keypad do nothing. They also do noth=
>ing=3D=20
>> > at a DCL prompt. Also, the PF1-4 keys work from F1-F4, and F12 is BEGIN=
>NIN=3D=20
>> >G OF LINE.=20
>> >=20
>> >Is there some secret setting I'm missing? Or do I need a 3rd-party app? =
>And=3D

>> > if so, can anyone here recommend one? Thanks!

>> I'm still on Big Sewer and regretting ever allowing that update.=20
>>=20
>> I never really cared for the Terminal app. It functions when in a pinch b=
>ut I=20
>> have been using iTerm/iTerm2 for years. When I need to, I "$ CREATE/TERMI=
>NAL"=20
>> because I have XQuartz installed. The keyboard has never been any problem=
> but=20
>> now that you've reported this, there's another reason to never upgrade ag=
>ain.=20
>>=20
>> --=20
>> VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG=
>=20
>>=20

>> I speak to machines with the voice of humanity.
>

>Yeah, macOS upgrades always seem to cause something cool to break or go bye=
>-bye. But my internal hard drive died, not easy to replace, the machine is =

I wouldn't have updated to Big Sewer in the first place. It was an accidental
update. I didn't want to go there because I had a number of 32-bit rocketry
apps that were never updated. I was able to overcome most of that save for 1
that reads the data off of my altimeters. :( I got my son's wife's sister's
old Mac now when has an older OSX so I can read my altimeter. Apple really
dicked up some apps I came accustomed to using. Thw weather widget is AFAIAC,
completely useless. If I want the current weather, I can look out the window;
the only windows I use.


>7 years old, meaning Apple doesn't make parts for it anymore and will refus=
>e to service it even for money, and the new M1 chip should definitely come =

I have a 2014 MacBook Air I use most of the time. I've replaced the keyboard
in it twice already and I just put in a new battery. Parts are readily avail-
able if you search the internet.


>in handy with NeatVideo noise reduction in my movies! (Final Cut has its ow=
>n Noise Reduction function (which, IIRC, is also quite slow), but it doesn'=
>t work that well, and you can't fully turn off the sharpness setting, which=

> seems to be what makes the result look a little grungy.)

I process video on the big Mac in the bedroom. Mostly my wife's Mac for the
taxes and her use, but it processes the video quickly. I don't touch her Mac
otheriwse because it's for the TurbotTax which seems to need the latest and
greatest to function each taxing season. So no matter what the cost, she gets
what she needs because I would off myself trying to figure out my way through
the government's I-will-gracously-be-your-victim-of-theft documents.


>VAXMAN, since you have Big Sur (uh, Big Sewer), do you have the same proble=
>m where ALL the shortcuts in the drop-down menus from the menu bar are all =
>grayed out? At first I thought it was a bug and their possibly non-existent=
> QA department was asleep at the wheel. Then, on the Apple "Support Communi=
>ties" board, someone said it was by design. Say what? That is so hard to be=
>lieve, I ruled it out without even consciously thinking about it. I asked w=
>hy anyone would want it that way. The poster responded, Why would anyone no=
>t want it that way? A troll? An idiot? In order to stay in the good graces =
>of the Apple police, I pretended it was a serious statement and proceeded t=

>o explain how stupid it is.

It depends upon what app is active. Finder seems to have the grayest menus.


>Someone else said it might be as old as Big Sur. So Sir, are ALL the shortc=
>uts -- and I do mean including the active ones where the English part isn't=
> grayed out -- grayed out? Or was that introduced in Catalina or Monterey, =

>if you happen to know?

FYI, it must have been an evil spirit I aroused this morning when I replied
to your post. The MacBook Air kernel paniced and it would not reboot. I put
it in to target disk mode and my youngest copied my VAXman folder over onto
his Mac. I then had to reinstall Big Sewer. I was hoping it would fix a bug
I've reported to Apple that they say that they can not reproduce. Something
is running and eating disk space. The activity monitor shows nothing. If I
don't reboot daily to free up 10s of gigs, I'm in big trouble quickly. It
appears to be something writing temp files but I can't find it. Rebooting
it causes all of the disk (SSD) consumed to be freed.


>BTW, Terminal has worked fine for me, once they finally allowed me to map C=
>lear, =3D, /, and * to the PFs. Actually, there is one problem: EDT (and I =
>would guess other editors -- I should try them!) full screen mode wipes out=
> part of the history buffer! Other than that, I've customized the font and =

>am pretty happy with it. It's free and it's already there.
>
>BTW, "Big Sewer" is definitely funnier than "WEENdoze."

FWIW, Safari, after today's reinstall, will no longer permit me to allow or
setup auto-play for some websites I access. I've re-re-installed Safari to
no avail. I've been working on a website and now I need to fire up Firefux
to hear any sounds. SMH.

Lately, it seems OSX has more quirks than it has works. ;)

[alanfe...@gmail.com]

Cool. Not sure I'd like the VT220 keyboards nowadays. They were fine long ago.

[alanfe...@gmail.com]

My own weather widget went south long ago. Just shows hyphens where there should be numbers.

But I really liked the calendar widget. I could easily zoom through years and months by holding the appropriate arrow key down. Or press the Home key to return to the current month. But it, too, is gone.

>
> >7 years old, meaning Apple doesn't make parts for it anymore and will refus=
> >e to service it even for money, and the new M1 chip should definitely come =
>
> I have a 2014 MacBook Air I use most of the time. I've replaced the keyboard
> in it twice already and I just put in a new battery. Parts are readily avail-
> able if you search the internet.

Yes, but that's probably risky. I suppose I could have replaced the drive with one from OWC and one of their DIY kits, but some jobs are not for newbies like me! And I think this was one of them. And my Time Machine restores didn't work quite right. A lot of files in the Movies and Music folders were missing. Yeah, I had to make and check lists of all the files to be sure they all made it over!

> >in handy with NeatVideo noise reduction in my movies! (Final Cut has its ow=
> >n Noise Reduction function (which, IIRC, is also quite slow), but it doesn'=
> >t work that well, and you can't fully turn off the sharpness setting, which=
> > seems to be what makes the result look a little grungy.

> I process video on the big Mac in the bedroom. Mostly my wife's Mac for the
> taxes and her use, but it processes the video quickly. I don't touch her Mac
> otheriwse because it's for the TurbotTax which seems to need the latest and
> greatest to function each taxing season. So no matter what the cost, she gets
> what she needs because I would off myself trying to figure out my way through
> the government's I-will-gracously-be-your-victim-of-theft documents.

Yes, just editing or exporting videos or uploading them to a website is fine. I'm talking about applying noise reduction and Neat Video's dust and scratch filter. They take some time to do their thing. And if you have to mask something frame-by-frame, you have to fly partly blind or struggle with painfully slow dragging. Hopefully, if I ever have to do that again, it should be smooth sailing with the M1. Again, just editing video is fine with a 7-year-old machine. It's the NR and DAS that takes a long time. Something like 1/8th X or worse. I think the best I ever got was about 1/6th X. With the M1 I assume it should go a lot faster. Also, I was fixing some nasty problems with a Super 8 film a friend and I made in 1976-1977.

>
>
> >VAXMAN, since you have Big Sur (uh, Big Sewer), do you have the same proble=
> >m where ALL the shortcuts in the drop-down menus from the menu bar are all =
> >grayed out? At first I thought it was a bug and their possibly non-existent=
> > QA department was asleep at the wheel. Then, on the Apple "Support Communi=
> >ties" board, someone said it was by design. Say what? That is so hard to be=
> >lieve, I ruled it out without even consciously thinking about it. I asked w=
> >hy anyone would want it that way. The poster responded, Why would anyone no=
> >t want it that way? A troll? An idiot? In order to stay in the good graces =
> >of the Apple police, I pretended it was a serious statement and proceeded t=
> >o explain how stupid it is.
> It depends upon what app is active. Finder seems to have the grayest menus.

OMG, so Big Sewer also has all the shortcuts grayed out menus? I guess Apple is embarrassed to walk that back. F___ers. Why anyone would spend even a microsecond on such a stupid thing -- and make things worse, to boot! -- is beyond me.

>
> >Someone else said it might be as old as Big Sur. So Sir, are ALL the shortc=
> >uts -- and I do mean including the active ones where the English part isn't=
> > grayed out -- grayed out? Or was that introduced in Catalina or Monterey, =
> >if you happen to know?
> FYI, it must have been an evil spirit I aroused this morning when I replied
> to your post. The MacBook Air kernel paniced and it would not reboot. I put
> it in to target disk mode and my youngest copied my VAXman folder over onto
> his Mac. I then had to reinstall Big Sewer. I was hoping it would fix a bug
> I've reported to Apple that they say that they can not reproduce. Something
> is running and eating disk space. The activity monitor shows nothing. If I
> don't reboot daily to free up 10s of gigs, I'm in big trouble quickly. It
> appears to be something writing temp files but I can't find it. Rebooting
> it causes all of the disk (SSD) consumed to be freed.

Yikes! Sorry to hear about that. Have you tried the "Apple Support Communities"? Sometimes they are of help. I had a problem after my hard drive die that the Mac wouldn't mount the swapfile. I posted there, but to no avail. After some serious googling, I finally found the remedy.

> >BTW, Terminal has worked fine for me, once they finally allowed me to map C=
> >lear, =3D, /, and * to the PFs. Actually, there is one problem: EDT (and I =
> >would guess other editors -- I should try them!) full screen mode wipes out=
> > part of the history buffer! Other than that, I've customized the font and =
> >am pretty happy with it. It's free and it's already there.
> >
> >BTW, "Big Sewer" is definitely funnier than "WEENdoze."
> FWIW, Safari, after today's reinstall, will no longer permit me to allow or
> setup auto-play for some websites I access. I've re-re-installed Safari to
> no avail. I've been working on a website and now I need to fire up Firefux
> to hear any sounds. SMH.

I never liked Safari. Too mouse-insistent, or keyboard-unfriendly. With FF, the old IE, and maybe some other browsers you can do Cmd-F, type in the text of the link, hit Return, then the link with that name would be focused, and you can just press Esc and Return to "click" the link! Well, in some cases it doesn't work, like when the link is a graphic. A workaround that sometimes works is to Find and focus on something near to it. Then tabbing might get you there. Sometimes you have to tab and shift-tab back to get it to work. And there was something slightly better about it on FF than on IE, but I can't remember what. It also worked on Chrome, but the fine users in the Final Cut group in the "support communities" warned me that Chrome is really bad for video and even other things on Macs. See https://chromeisbad.com/ for details, so I can't check if is still works. Chrome doesn't offer case-sensitive searching anyway. I tried it mostly because it worked better than FF on YouTube at the time (ca. 2000, +\- a few years).

>
> Lately, it seems OSX has more quirks than it has works. ;)

Well, it's a little more keyboard-friendly than before. And the mouse doesn't slow down more than you do when you slow down. Snow Leopard had that problem big time. I hated it!

Final Cut is pretty keyboard-friendly. It's surprising how much you can do with it without the mouse. But dragging things requires the mouse, and you have to drag things around a bit. But it's got dozens and dozens of shortcuts!

> --
> VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG
>
> I speak to machines with the voice of humanity.

Alan

[Mark DeArman]

I second the ZOC recommendation. Just love the UI. Was worth every
penny, and the few times I ran into any issues with VMS the author was
quick to find a solution and issue a patch.

Mark

[alanfe...@gmail.com]

I'll check it out and keep it in mind. Thanks. But my needs are simple.

[Johnny Billquist]

To each his own. As always.
But I can tell that terminal behaves wrong when receiving a DECCOLM
escape sequence. If you are at 80 columns, and the escape sequence also
requests 80 columns, terminal do nothing, which is incorrect. The screen
should be cleared. And I have at least some applications under RSX that
knows and expects this behavior, so the screen gets really messed up
when using terminal.

Actually, this is the first test I do with any terminal program, and a
majority of them fail this one.

I haven't really tried to see if there are other problems/errors in the
emulation. That one already disqualifies it for my use.

Johnny

[Johnny Billquist]

There is an option, even available in the control-leftclick menu, to
tell xterm to send DEL when you want to delete characters. And FYI,
control-H is actually the backspace character. But yes, getting
backspace when you press that <X] key is really annoying. Lucky it's so
easy to fix.

Along the same lines, you then also want to select the "VT200 keyboard"
option. In the same menu, as well as settable by command options.

No keymapping scripts or anything funny needed. Set the size of the
terminal by just dragging it out. Select font by control-rightclick.

Johnny

[Johnny Billquist]

I was objecting to people using xmodmap or various scripts to make xterm
send the correct sequences. xterm can do it all without anything that
fancy. Either use xresources, or use the command line (or even the
built-in menus) to get it right. If you call that configuration or not,
I don't know.

My xresources file looks like this:

===
*.vt100.decTerminalID: 220
*.vt100.c132: true
*.vt100.saveLines: 1000
*.ptyInitialErase: true
*.backarrowKeyIsErase: true
*.backarrowKey: false
*.sunKeyboard: true
*.rightScrollBar: true

xterm.vt100.activeIcon: false
xterm.vt100.multiScroll: true

vms.utmpInhibit: true
vms.title: VMS terminal
vms.vt100.loginShell: false
vms.vt100.scrollBar: true
===

And then I start xterm with:

xterm +sf +sp -aw -ut -132 -ti vt220 -sb -sl 5000 -name vms $* &

Several of those switches are definitely just duplicating the resources
anyway, so I'm just silly, but I haven't bothered really cleaning it up.

Johnny

[Henry Crun]

OTOH:

see https://vt100.net/docs/vt510-rm/DECCOLM.html et.al.
</quote>
Note

It is recommended that new applications use DECSCPP rather than DECCOLM. DECSCPP does not clear page memory or reset the
scrolling regions, as does DECCOLM. DECCOLM is provided mainly for compatibility with previous products.

</quote>

--
No Micro$oft products were used in the URLs above, or in preparing this message.
Recommended reading: http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#befor

[Simon Clubley]

The following may help:

https://www.hypexr.org/linux_ruboff.php

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

[Simon Clubley]

I doubt it. :-)

Try setting TERM to vt220 and see if that makes a difference.

BTW, it would be nice if VMS did support colour. The z/OS style command
output would make the VMS command output much more readable instead of
the monochrome output you get with VMS.

[Single Stage to Orbit]

On Thu, 2022-09-22 at 12:41 +0000, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2022-09-21, gah4 <ga...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
> > On Tuesday, September 20, 2022 at 6:31:17 AM UTC-7,
> > alanfe...@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> > Does VMS know about xterm-256color?
>
> I doubt it. :-)
>
> Try setting TERM to vt220 and see if that makes a difference.
>
> BTW, it would be nice if VMS did support colour. The z/OS style
> command output would make the VMS command output much more readable
> instead of the monochrome output you get with VMS.

VT100 supports ANSI color codes. In theory you should be able to do
this in VMS provided the terminal can parse these color codes.
--
Tactical Nuclear Kittens

[Johnny Billquist]

Sure. But that hardly makes me any happier when I have an application
that sends DECCOLM and my screen gets all messed up because the terminal
application don't implement DECCOLM correctly.

Johnny

[Johnny Billquist]

Uh? A VT100 don't support ANSI color codes. A VT100 is very monochrome.
But technically, any application that want to play with color can always
send the escape sequences required to make them happen. VMS isn't really
involved here.

xterm do support colors, as do the VT525, using ANSI color codes.

Johnny

[Single Stage to Orbit]

On Thu, 2022-09-22 at 16:36 +0200, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> > VT100 supports ANSI color codes. In theory you should be able to do
> > this in VMS provided the terminal can parse these color codes.
>
> Uh? A VT100 don't support ANSI color codes. A VT100 is very
> monochrome. But technically, any application that want to play with
> color can always send the escape sequences required to make them
> happen. VMS isn't really involved here.
>
> xterm do support colors, as do the VT525, using ANSI color codes.

The VT100 terminal does not support colours, that is true. I got my
information from this site:

https://wiki.bash-hackers.org/scripting/terminalcodes

It says these are ANSI/VT100 terminal codes.
--
Tactical Nuclear Kittens

[Craig A. Berry]

OK, I call that a lot of configuration. Thanks to your head start, I
may try it some time for geek points but it all looks like a lot of work
to get a terminal that looks pretty awful compared to iTerm2.

[Simon Clubley]

On 2022-09-22, Johnny Billquist <b...@softjar.se> wrote:
>
> Uh? A VT100 don't support ANSI color codes. A VT100 is very monochrome.
> But technically, any application that want to play with color can always
> send the escape sequences required to make them happen. VMS isn't really
> involved here.
>

Actually, VMS is directly involved here as it's the VMS commands I wouldn't
mind seeing colour support added to in order to highlight values and
information just as z/OS does.

Here's an example of how colour can be used to highlight the display
of information in a text mode application:

https://screenshots.debian.net/package/slrn

That's a _lot_ better than displaying everything in a single monochrome
colour.

[John Dallman]

In article <tgi6aq$28pgi$1...@dont-email.me>,

clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP (Simon Clubley) wrote:

> https://screenshots.debian.net/package/slrn
>
> That's a _lot_ better than displaying everything in a single
> monochrome colour.

That depends on the person using it. Provide such colour schemes, OK, but
there needs to be a way of turning them off.

Right off.

Back to monochrome.

I have a complicated set of vision defects, and need a display to be as
simple as possible. Colour is /confusing/ for me.

John

[alanfe...@gmail.com]

Thanks for your reply.

I originally posted here because the numbers and decimal point keys on the numeric keypad weren't working right, meaning I'd be severely inconvenienced, to say the least, using EDT. Well, it turned out to be something stupid with the Mouse Keys bit and possibly other Accessibility settings. But it's fixed now.

NTL, I got several recommendations on getting something better than macOS Terminal. But my needs are simple. I work on DCL command procedures. That's pretty much it! I do hope to publish a couple of them on the freeware site soon.

Now, I don't even know what DECCOLM is, and have heard the term RSX, but don't really know what it is. I don't need a race car to cross the street.

The only problem I have with Terminal is that using EDT in full-screen mode wipes out part of the history buffer (not the commands, but screen output). So I have one window dedicated just for editing sessions. I assume this is actually an EDT problem, and therefore won't be cured by switching to any other emulator.

BTW, I was considering using vim!

Thanks for your post.

[Arne Vajhøj]

VT241 and VT340 was also color - I don't know if they supported
ANSI color escape sequences.

Arne

[Johnny Billquist]

They don't. They can only switch colors if you go into ReGIS mode. No
ANSI escape sequences for playing with colors.

Johnny

[Michael Moroney]

On 9/22/2022 5:06 PM, alanfe...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, September 22, 2022 at 4:11:02 AM UTC-4, Johnny Billquist wrote:
>> On 2022-09-21 11:54, alanfe...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, September 21, 2022 at 4:51:41 AM UTC-4, Johnny Billquist wrote:
>>>> On 2022-09-20 21:57, Steven Schweda wrote:
>>>>>> Am I the only one in the newsgroup that uses a Mac to access an
>>>>>> OpenVMS box?

Many do. I use iterm2 which was a pain to configure correctly, but it
works correctly for me other than the fact the fn and PF2 keys don't
work, but I don't use them.

> The only problem I have with Terminal is that using EDT in full-screen mode wipes out part of the history buffer (not the commands, but screen output).

I noticed something like that with iterm2, not elsewhere, I'll look at
EDT to see what's up.

[Johnny Billquist]

Not sure what you are referring to. EDT clears the screen in order to
draw whatever it wants to show there. So of course, whatever else was
there before is gone.

Or are you referring to something else?

Johnny

[alanfe...@gmail.com]

Say I run SHOW SYSTEM on EISNER. It's like a hundred-something lines. Say it's 160 lines. I run EDT. It clears the screen, brings up the file, I do my edits, and exit. Now I page-up to review the SHOW SYSTEM output, and the l last 30 or 40 or whatever lines are gone. If I had instead run, say, SH DEV DS, I get what,10 lines of output? Then I do a full-screen editing session. Then I page-up to see the SH DEV DS output again, and it's gone. Older stuff is still there, but the last n lines of what was there before I edited something is gone for good. Maybe you never do the page-up bit to see previous commands and their outputs.

Alan.

[Robert A. Brooks]

On 9/23/2022 11:13 PM, alanfe...@gmail.com wrote:

> Say I run SHOW SYSTEM on EISNER. It's like a hundred-something lines. Say
> it's 160 lines. I run EDT. It clears the screen, brings up the file, I do my
> edits, and exit. Now I page-up to review the SHOW SYSTEM output, and the l
> last 30 or 40 or whatever lines are gone. If I had instead run, say, SH DEV
> DS, I get what,10 lines of output? Then I do a full-screen editing session.
> Then I page-up to see the SH DEV DS output again, and it's gone. Older stuff
> is still there, but the last n lines of what was there before I edited
> something is gone for good. Maybe you never do the page-up bit to see
> previous commands and their outputs.

It's your emulator.

I use EDT regularly and frequently scroll back to see previous output (whilst
in the editor and after exiting it). I always see the output that had been
displayed prior to the editing session.

I use PowerTerm for an emulator.

--

--- Rob

[alanfe...@gmail.com]

Fascinating. I just tried it using EDIT/TPU, and it works fine. It just fails with EDT. I guess the problem only happens running EDT in Terminal!

>
> I use PowerTerm for an emulator.

I don't.

Thanks for checking!
>
> --
>
> --- Rob

Alan

[Jan-Erik Söderholm]

Works just fine with EDT and Putty.

Here I did SHO SYS, picked up my LOGIN.COM file in EDT,
switched to full screen, did quit from EDT and finaly
just scrolled back my screen session in Putty.

The PACK11_PLC process was the last line from SHO SYS before
EDT was started. It is still there in the scroll-back buffer
after exiting EDT.


00009206 PACK_11 LEF 11 2957 0 00:00:00.44 1752 1458
00009A07 PACK_11PLC LEF 11 2357 0 00:00:00.40 1946 1648
$ edit/edt login.com
1 $!-----------------------------------------!
*c
$!-----------------------------------------!
$! LOGIN FILE FOR USER: EDED
$!-----------------------------------------!
..
..
<ctrl-Z>
*quit

$

[alanfe...@gmail.com]

Thank you, gentlemen!

[alanfe...@gmail.com]

On Saturday, September 24, 2022 at 9:03:22 AM UTC-4, Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote:

> Den 2022-09-24 kl. 06:06, skrev alanfe...@gmail.com:
> > On Friday, September 23, 2022 at 11:24:48 PM UTC-4, Robert A. Brooks wrote:
> >> On 9/23/2022 11:13 PM, alanfe...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>

[...]

> >
> > Alan
> Works just fine with EDT and Putty.
>
> Here I did SHO SYS, picked up my LOGIN.COM file in EDT,
> switched to full screen, did quit from EDT and finaly
> just scrolled back my screen session in Putty.
>
> The PACK11_PLC process was the last line from SHO SYS before
> EDT was started. It is still there in the scroll-back buffer
> after exiting EDT.
>
>
> 00009206 PACK_11 LEF 11 2957 0 00:00:00.44 1752 1458
> 00009A07 PACK_11PLC LEF 11 2357 0 00:00:00.40 1946 1648
> $ edit/edt login.com
> 1 $!-----------------------------------------!
> *c
> $!-----------------------------------------!
> $! LOGIN FILE FOR USER: EDED
> $!-----------------------------------------!
> ..
> ..
> <ctrl-Z>
> *quit
>
> $

Did you scroll up and down during your EDT session?

[Johnny Billquist]

The last 30-40 lines (the screen size I would guess) would be gone,
since those lines were reused by EDT. Anything that was off the top of
the screen are no longer active, and can't be overwritten, so they stay
around.

On newer terminal emulators, there exists an escape sequence to switch
to an alternative window, which some applications use, so that all
current screen content remains. I highly doubt EDT knows about, or uses
that escape sequence. But I have a feeling that is what you are thinking
of/hoping for. Some other, newer editors, would be using that when possible.

A real VT terminal do not have that alternative window, so it's
something that DEC never played with.

Johnny

[alanfe...@gmail.com]

Yep, it works fine with TPU. One then needs to put it in a DCL jacket with the right secret escape sequence, or get one of these newfangled terminal emulators.

[Johnny Billquist]

You need both a new fangled termina emulator, *and* an editor which
switches to this alternative screen.

A little surprised TPU knows about it, but I guess maybe because of
xterm and the VXT terminals, it already was around in the later days of
DEC software?

Johnny

[Jan-Erik Söderholm]

Just tried with a larger file (than my LOGIN.COM) and jumped
up and down in it within EDT. I could still scroll back to my
previous screen content before I entered EDT.

EDT is my prefered editor and I would definitely had seen this
if it had been a problem. So, no, I have never seen this problem.
And I have used Reflection, Extra! and Putty over the years.

[alanfe...@gmail.com]

Thanks! OK, the problem is with Terminal.

Alan

[Michael Moroney]

It may be EDT doing something goofy that was previously ignored by most
emulators, but Terminal/iTerm2 respond to, and may be responding correctly.

I took (literal) screenshots of what EDT and TPU do on a VT320 in
"Display Control Characters" mode, with a mini editing session. I will
figure out what the various escape sequences are trying to do.

[alanfe...@gmail.com]

Looking forward to it. EDT full screen mode always seemed to reset the screen properly no matter how badly is was screwed up!