Looking for VAX/VMS V1.0 and V2.x kits

[Simon Clubley]

I am looking for the VAX/VMS V1.0 and VAX/VMS V2.x installation kits
so I can run those versions of VMS on SimH.

The last time this came up, those versions were considered to be lost
and only a VAX/VMS V1.5 kit was available.

Has the situation changed or are those specific versions still
considered to be lost ?

Thanks,

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Microsoft: Bringing you 1980s technology to a 21st century world

[corn...@eisner.decus.org]

Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-earth.ufp> wrote:
> I am looking for the VAX/VMS V1.0 and VAX/VMS V2.x installation kits
> so I can run those versions of VMS on SimH.

I upgraded a system to VMS 2.x (2.2?) once. With a vendor's help -
I was not a sysadmin back then.

There's a chance that I have a system disk backup on RA60
from that era. Ignoring the issue of finding a drive that can
read it, might it be possible to a kit from that? I have forgotten.

George

[Simon Clubley]

On 2018-08-14, corn...@eisner.decus.org <corn...@eisner.decus.org> wrote:
> Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-earth.ufp> wrote:
>> I am looking for the VAX/VMS V1.0 and VAX/VMS V2.x installation kits
>> so I can run those versions of VMS on SimH.
>
> I upgraded a system to VMS 2.x (2.2?) once. With a vendor's help -
> I was not a sysadmin back then.
>
> There's a chance that I have a system disk backup on RA60
> from that era. Ignoring the issue of finding a drive that can
> read it, might it be possible to a kit from that? I have forgotten.
>

I don't know if it's possible to build a kit from that, but that
is only a means to the end goal which is a running VMS 2.x system.

If the system disk image could have any site specific sensitive files
removed and if the image could be compressed down to a reasonable size
using a decent compressor then just making the system image available
would probably be a viable option.

What I don't know is how easily you could turn a system disk backup
from that era into a system image using the available tools as that
VMS version was _way_ before my time. (I was still in school when
_that_ was a current version. :-))

I have good coverage of running VMS versions all the way back to 3.x
and I have the VMS 1.5 kit which I am going to set up, but there's
a big jump from 3.x back to 1.5 so it would be nice to get an
intermediate version (as well as 1.0 itself if it still exists).

BTW, was Macro-32 always supplied with the VMS distribution starting
from V1.0 or was it an optional kit until a later VMS version ?

[corn...@eisner.decus.org]

Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-earth.ufp> wrote:
> On 2018-08-14, corn...@eisner.decus.org <corn...@eisner.decus.org> wrote:

>> There's a chance that I have a system disk backup on RA60
>> from that era. Ignoring the issue of finding a drive that can
>> read it, might it be possible to a kit from that? I have forgotten.

> I don't know if it's possible to build a kit from that, but that
> is only a means to the end goal which is a running VMS 2.x system.

On Eisner there's sys$update:spkitbld.com, which is likely what
I was trying to remember.

Otherwise, however, the likelihood of making it all come
together is quite small, beginning with the fact that by the
time the hardware in question (a 750 and 780) was retired, it
was probably at 4.x or later. Since the removable packs in
question were a scarce resource, the ones that were left on the
shelf for many years afterward, up until someone asked me what
to do with them, would likely have been newer backups.

Secondly, the reason they never left the organization was that there
is likely at least a small amount of sensitive information present
and no one would ever have been able to justify paying a recovery
service to extract the data to other media for further examination
and possible archiving.

But I will check - I believe the packs are in a coworker's possession -
and see if I can determine what their contents are. All I remember
seeing were small handwritten labels, one per pack, with the
operator's initials, date, and type of backup, so it would be a
guess as to VMS version anyway.

[...]

> I have good coverage of running VMS versions all the way back to 3.x
> and I have the VMS 1.5 kit which I am going to set up, but there's
> a big jump from 3.x back to 1.5 so it would be nice to get an
> intermediate version (as well as 1.0 itself if it still exists).
>
> BTW, was Macro-32 always supplied with the VMS distribution starting
> from V1.0 or was it an optional kit until a later VMS version ?

I believe it was present in V2. It was likely there in V1 as
well, since I do not remember it ever having been mentioned as
a layered product.

George

[johnwa...@yahoo.co.uk]

[clanking of worn and tired washing-machine-size disk drives...]

Does EISNER also have SYS$UPDATE:VMSKITBLD.COM ?

It's still referenced in VMS documentation, e.g. OpenVMS System
Manager's Manual available online in various places:

"2.5 Using VMSKITBLD.COM to Modify a System Disk

On VAX systems, the command procedure SYS$UPDATE:VMSKITBLD.COM allows you to duplicate system files from an existing system disk on another disk.
[...]"

Not sure how far back it goes, ie when in the history of VMS versions
it first became useful.

SPKITBLD is a bit different.

[Simon Clubley]

On 2018-08-14, corn...@eisner.decus.org <corn...@eisner.decus.org> wrote:
>
> On Eisner there's sys$update:spkitbld.com, which is likely what
> I was trying to remember.
>
> Otherwise, however, the likelihood of making it all come
> together is quite small, beginning with the fact that by the
> time the hardware in question (a 750 and 780) was retired, it
> was probably at 4.x or later. Since the removable packs in
> question were a scarce resource, the ones that were left on the
> shelf for many years afterward, up until someone asked me what
> to do with them, would likely have been newer backups.
>

In which case, and given the probable security issues you mention,
I don't think there's any point you spending any more time on this,
but thanks anyway for the offer; I appreciate it.

I wanted an intermediate version so if there was a change in behaviour
for something, I could reduce the range of versions over which that
behaviour could have changed.

In the same way, having a V1.0 version of VMS would allow you to see
if VMS had _always_ behaved in a certain way or if it was something
that changed in an early version of VMS.

[John Reagan]

On Sunday, August 12, 2018 at 8:04:56 PM UTC-4, Simon Clubley wrote:
> I am looking for the VAX/VMS V1.0 and VAX/VMS V2.x installation kits
> so I can run those versions of VMS on SimH.
>

Those early versions had many things still in PDP-11 compatibility mode. Does SimH support that?

[John E. Malmberg]

There is a SimH VAX-11/780 build option that supports it.

Regards,
-John

[fswo...@gmail.com]

Yes, VAX-11/78x in SIMH emulator supports PDP-11 compatibility mode.

I am still looking for original installation kits of VMS v1.x and v2.x.

I have OldVMS v1.4 package by VAXorcist. I got it from guy through USENET
omp.os.vms newsgroup some time ago.

It have v1.0 through v4.7 installation kits with many layered products like
compilers, etc.

It have reconstructed VMS v1.0 package and VMS v2.0 package. I still am
looking for all v2.x packages.

Also, I am still looking for JNet v1.x and v2.x for messaging and sending
files facility and BITNET programming docs. I only have JNet v3.5 to v3.7.

Tim

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[Alan Frisbie]

On 08/12/2018 05:04 PM, Simon Clubley wrote:
> I am looking for the VAX/VMS V1.0 and VAX/VMS V2.x installation kits
> so I can run those versions of VMS on SimH.

According to my notes, I have a copy of BB-D782C-BE VMS V2.0 BIN tape.
However, it was packed last month for my move to Oregon and it will
be several months before I will be able to find it and make a copy for
you. Please be patient and remind me in a few months.

Alan

[Simon Clubley]

Thank you.

That's the kind of thing that should end up on Bitsavers or one of
the other archives as a compressed image so that everyone can benefit,
but I will remind you in a few months.

Thanks once again,

[Bob Koehler]

SIMH has PDP-11 emulation, and claims VAX 11/780 emulation, so it
should have compatability mode.

IMHO, without compatability mode, you're not emulating an 11/780.

[Johnny Billquist]

On 2018-08-15 15:38, Bob Koehler wrote:
> In article <3eb0b10c-c0a5-4d70...@googlegroups.com>, John Reagan <xyzz...@gmail.com> writes:
>> On Sunday, August 12, 2018 at 8:04:56 PM UTC-4, Simon Clubley wrote:
>>> I am looking for the VAX/VMS V1.0 and VAX/VMS V2.x installation kits
>>> so I can run those versions of VMS on SimH.
>>>
>>
>> Those early versions had many things still in PDP-11 compatibility mode. Does SimH support that?
>>
>
> SIMH has PDP-11 emulation, and claims VAX 11/780 emulation, so it
> should have compatability mode.

Hardly relevant, as the VAX PDP-11 compatibility mode is rather
different than a PDP-11 itself.

> IMHO, without compatability mode, you're not emulating an 11/780.

Agreed. In fact, if you claimed to emulate a 11/780, and did not include
compatibility mode, I think something like VMS V1.x would be rather
useless, as I seem to remember that early versions of VMS had most tools
still running in compatibility mode.

Johnny

--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

[George Cornelius]

In article <pl0ceh$fsb$1...@dont-email.me>, Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> writes:
> On 2018-08-14, Alan Frisbie <Usenet0...@Flying-Disk.com> wrote:

>> According to my notes, I have a copy of BB-D782C-BE VMS V2.0 BIN tape.
>> However, it was packed last month for my move to Oregon and it will
>> be several months before I will be able to find it and make a copy for
>> you. Please be patient and remind me in a few months.

That's great, Alan. Not surprised you would be the one to
have something that far back.

Meanwhile, I checked the RA60 packs I mentioned earlier.

One pack has this on the label:

VMS 4.7
(vendor name, used as an ID for the system)
5-8-89

The newer pack has this:

11/70 DR0: OFF-LINE SYSTEM DISK
IN SERVICE: DEC 27, 1993

So neither one is anywhere near V2. And one
is not even VMS. I was about to say it was
probably a typo, and they meant 11/780, but
then I separated the pack from the base of
the "cake holder" and saw this at the bottom
left corner of the label: "Utility: BRU".

It would have been an 11/70 I installed
years before that, no doubt. No RA60 on
it back then, but as I recall someone added
an MSCP (UDA50?) disk controller at some
point. They may even have gotten their
RA60 drive from the 11/780 that was used
to create the 1989 volume - once the VAX
had been taken out of service.

George

[Simon Clubley]

On 2018-08-16, George Cornelius <corn...@eisner.decus.org> wrote:
>
> Meanwhile, I checked the RA60 packs I mentioned earlier.
>
> One pack has this on the label:
>
> VMS 4.7
> (vendor name, used as an ID for the system)
> 5-8-89
>
> The newer pack has this:
>
> 11/70 DR0: OFF-LINE SYSTEM DISK
> IN SERVICE: DEC 27, 1993
>
> So neither one is anywhere near V2. And one
> is not even VMS. I was about to say it was
> probably a typo, and they meant 11/780, but
> then I separated the pack from the base of
> the "cake holder" and saw this at the bottom
> left corner of the label: "Utility: BRU".
>

Thank you anyway for having gone to the effort to check; I appreciate it.

[abrsvc]

IRRC the distribution for those versions was magtape. Unfortunately, I tossed all the magtape I had a few years ago. I know that I had a V2 variant distribution at that time. I would think that an old backup (likely DSC) might be floating around somewhere. The added problem might be a copy of standalone DSC to restore it. Backup (the utility) came into existence in V3 right?

[Paul Sture]

On 2018-08-14, johnwa...@yahoo.co.uk <johnwa...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
> [clanking of worn and tired washing-machine-size disk drives...]
>
> Does EISNER also have SYS$UPDATE:VMSKITBLD.COM ?
>
> It's still referenced in VMS documentation, e.g. OpenVMS System
> Manager's Manual available online in various places:
>
> "2.5 Using VMSKITBLD.COM to Modify a System Disk
>
> On VAX systems, the command procedure SYS$UPDATE:VMSKITBLD.COM allows
> you to duplicate system files from an existing system disk on another
> disk. [...]"
>
> Not sure how far back it goes, ie when in the history of VMS versions
> it first became useful.

It was certainly there im early 3.0 releases, and my memory is telling
me it was there in 2.n (though how far back in that series I do not
know).

> SPKITBLD is a bit different.

Indeed.

--
The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the
intelligent are full of doubt. -- Bertrand Russell

[Paul Sture]

Dunno about compatibility mode stuff, but I did manage to run 1.5
under SimH.

[Wilm Boerhout]

Simon Clubley schreef op 13-8-2018 om 02:04:

> I am looking for the VAX/VMS V1.0 and VAX/VMS V2.x installation kits
> so I can run those versions of VMS on SimH.
>
> The last time this came up, those versions were considered to be lost
> and only a VAX/VMS V1.5 kit was available.
>
> Has the situation changed or are those specific versions still
> considered to be lost ?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Simon.

I have both V1.0 and V1.5 running om simh VAX 11/780. The distribution
tapes are on bitsavers I believe, but I have local copies.

It requires a two-step process to restore the DSC kits, so you need a
V3.x system as intermediate.

If you just want a simh disk with an installed system, I can send you
those as well. Decode my email address to discuss details of the transfer.

/Wilm

[Wilm Boerhout]

Wilm Boerhout schreef op 8-9-2018 om 11:46:

Looking at my notes, I saw that the "V1.0 kit" (you will understand the
apostrophes when you read the README file) is downloadable from
http://www.9track.net/vms/BB-D782A-BE.zip


/Wilm

[Timothy Stark]

Ok I got it. I already have v1.0 and v1.5 kits. We are still looking for
v2.x kits. I am looking for v5.0 to v5.4 kits also.

Tim

[Simon Clubley]

On 2018-09-09, Timothy Stark <fswo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Ok I got it. I already have v1.0 and v1.5 kits. We are still looking for
> v2.x kits. I am looking for v5.0 to v5.4 kits also.
>

To Wilm: Thanks once again Wilm.

To Timothy:

Have you looked at VaxHaven ?

http://vaxhaven.com/TK50_Image_Archive

VAX/VMS 5.3 is listed there as AQ-JP22E-BE and AQ-NH24B-BE.

There's also ftp://ftp.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pub/cm/dec/vax/sw/
but I don't know if there's anything of interest in there for you.

For the second link, there's a labels.txt in each directory which you
should read first.

IIRC, not all the kits are the actual full kits but some are updates
or patches or similar.

Simon.

PS: While you are at VaxHaven, looking at the CD-ROM archive at
http://vaxhaven.com/CD_Image_Archive might be of interest. There's also
a paper tape archive of some DEC software from the early 1970s at
http://vaxhaven.com/Paper_Tape_Archive

PPS: I am _NOT_ vouching for the integrity of any of this software.
I'm not connected with the sites in any way and have only come across
them while looking for similar things myself. Use at your own risk, etc.

PPPS: There appears to be some other interesting material linked from
the main page at: http://vaxhaven.com/VaxHaven

[Steven Schweda]

> [...] I am looking for v5.0 to v5.4 kits also.

V5.4 was on the original Hobbyist CD-ROM. A Web search
for "HOBBYISTV1" might find something. (Also V5.5[-2], V6.0,
and V6.1.)

[Kerry Main]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Info-vax <info-vax...@rbnsn.com> On Behalf Of Simon Clubley
> via Info-vax
> Sent: September 9, 2018 1:34 PM
> To: info...@rbnsn.com
> Cc: Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP>
> Subject: Re: [Info-vax] Looking for VAX/VMS V1.0 and V2.x kits
>

Very interesting Link - I have the CD as well, but forgot about this:

<http://vaxhaven.com/CD_Image_Archive>
"OpenVMS Internet Product Suite Version 1.2 (DIGITAL Firewall for OpenVMS
V1.0)"

As I recall an earlier discussion, the source code may have been lost in all
the shuffles, but it was official product with media, documentation, spd
etc.


Regards,

Kerry Main
Kerry dot main at starkgaming dot com

[Timothy Stark]

>Looking at my notes, I saw that the "V1.0 kit" (you will understand the
apostrophes when you read the README file) is downloadable from
http://www.9track.net/vms/BB-D782A-BE.zip

Someone was looking for VMS 1.0 kit on FB group. I tried to access that but
it is gone anymore. Does anyone have it elsewhere?

Thanks,
Tim

[Viktor Madarasz]

Id like to join the queue waiting for this..