Alpha Community licenes.

[Jan-Erik Söderholm]

Hi.

Just got a mail with a link to:

"Community license for Alpha servers, valid until September 2023".

Downloaded a COM file LMF commands for ALPHA-SYSTEM and ALPHA-LP.

They could name the file xxx_COM.TXT instead of xxx.COM so
that Windows doesn't think it is an executable COM file...

[Single Stage to Orbit]

I just got mine.

Unfortunately I tihnk someone has got the licences wrong. Last year's
licence was authorised for HOBBYIST, the I got this year is authorised
for "EVAL".

/AUTHORIZATION=HOBY-VSICOMMUNITY-XXCENSOREDXX
vs.
/AUTHORIZATION=EVAL-XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Is that correct or is it plain wrong?
--
Tactical Nuclear Kittens

[Robert A. Brooks]

If the license loads and the products run, it's correct.

I don't know why authorization string would have changed, but as
long as it's good for a year, it really does not matter.

My *guess* is that the same process is being used for the hobby generation as it
is for potential customers receiving short-term (30/60 day) time-limited licenses.

--

--- Rob

[Single Stage to Orbit]

Fair enough, I'll boot up my AXP emulator and load the licences in.

Many thanks.
--
Tactical Nuclear Kittens

[gah4]

On Wednesday, September 14, 2022 at 6:16:14 AM UTC-7, Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote:

(snip)

> They could name the file xxx_COM.TXT instead of xxx.COM so
> that Windows doesn't think it is an executable COM file...

Yes, why did Windows use the COM extension, for something else,
when VMS already had a use for it.

As well as I know it, Windows executes file appropriately,
independent of extension, if they have one of COM, EXE, BAT, CMD,
and probably others that I forgot.

That is, it doesn't use the extension to decide how to run it.

[Arne Vajhøj]

On 9/14/2022 6:46 PM, gah4 wrote:
> On Wednesday, September 14, 2022 at 6:16:14 AM UTC-7, Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote:
>> They could name the file xxx_COM.TXT instead of xxx.COM so
>> that Windows doesn't think it is an executable COM file...
>
> Yes, why did Windows use the COM extension, for something else,
> when VMS already had a use for it.

Windows inherited it from DOS. And DOS supposedly inherited it from CP/M.

> As well as I know it, Windows executes file appropriately,
> independent of extension, if they have one of COM, EXE, BAT, CMD,
> and probably others that I forgot.
>
> That is, it doesn't use the extension to decide how to run it.

I would have thougth that EXE/COM and BAT/CMD was treated
differently.

Arne

[Scott Dorsey]

=?UTF-8?Q?Arne_Vajh=c3=b8j?= <ar...@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
>On 9/14/2022 6:46 PM, gah4 wrote:
>> On Wednesday, September 14, 2022 at 6:16:14 AM UTC-7, Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote:
>>> They could name the file xxx_COM.TXT instead of xxx.COM so
>>> that Windows doesn't think it is an executable COM file...
>>
>> Yes, why did Windows use the COM extension, for something else,
>> when VMS already had a use for it.
>
>Windows inherited it from DOS. And DOS supposedly inherited it from CP/M.

Yes, and CP/M inherited most things from RT-11.... but... not this one.
In RT-11 the .COM file is a command language script just like in VMS.
So you can blame Gary for this one.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[gah4]

On Wednesday, September 14, 2022 at 4:05:01 PM UTC-7, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>
(snip, I wrote)

> > That is, it doesn't use the extension to decide how to run it.

> I would have thougth that EXE/COM and BAT/CMD was treated
> differently.

As far as I know, early DOS days it did keep EXE and COM separate.
Then some system programs changed, but to avoid confusion they
kept the old extension. The system can tell them apart.

CMD came from OS/2, and BAT from MS-DOS. Windows accepts both.

It does seem that it could separate EXE/COM from BAT/CMD, but as
I understand, it doesn't.

I remember EXE back to TOPS-10 days, but that was before I knew
about RT-11. Somewhere in the DEC days, anyway.

[Steven Schweda]

> Just got a mail with a link to:
>
> "Community license for Alpha servers, valid until September 2023".

My e-mail had links labelled "Get your Integrity license" and "Get
your Alpha license".

> Downloaded a COM file LMF commands for ALPHA-SYSTEM and ALPHA-LP.

My links led to ".zip" archives (so no ".COM" problem):

ALPHA_COMMUNITY_LICENSE_PAK.zip
INTEGRITY_COMMUNITY_LICENSE_PAK.zip

which contained:

INTEGRITY_COMMUNITY_LICENSE_PAK_SEP_2022.COM
ALPHA_COMMUNITY_LICENSE_PAK_SEP_2022.COM

which UnZip 6.00 extracted as Record format: Stream_LF, with
bonus/spurious CR line endings.

To avoid the defective line endings, you could use "unzip -a" when
unpacking, or "set file /attr = rfm:stm" after unpacking (without "-a").

Apparently my suggestion to use an easily sortable date format in
such file names failed to have any effect.

[Lars Brinkhoff]

gah4 wrote:
> I remember EXE back to TOPS-10 days, but that was before I knew
> about RT-11. Somewhere in the DEC days, anyway.

I don't know if TOPS-10 or TOPS-20 introduced .EXE first. Or if
they did it at the same time? Before that there were things like
.SAV and .SHR.

[Jan-Erik Söderholm]

Den 2022-09-15 kl. 06:23, skrev Steven Schweda:
>> Just got a mail with a link to:
>>
>> "Community license for Alpha servers, valid until September 2023".
>
> My e-mail had links labelled "Get your Integrity license" and "Get
> your Alpha license".
>
>> Downloaded a COM file LMF commands for ALPHA-SYSTEM and ALPHA-LP.
>
> My links led to ".zip" archives (so no ".COM" problem):
>
> ALPHA_COMMUNITY_LICENSE_PAK.zip
> INTEGRITY_COMMUNITY_LICENSE_PAK.zip
>

Sure, but the Windows Explorer shows the zip content and you can
open the file from there. But if the file has an .COM extension,
you do not get all the right-click options, such as e.g. Notepad.

If the file is first saved to an uncompressed directory, a right-
click gives the usual file handling options, including Notepad.
No big deal...

That worked fine in this case, but sometimes the COM files has
VMS file attributes that implies line/record endings that are
not understod, and it is just displayed as a mass of text.
Need to first unzip on VMS to be able to read the text files.

And it is no big deal, I simply rename it to xxx_COM.TXT in my
laptop repository of VMS related files.

[Steven Schweda]

> Sure, but the Windows Explorer shows the zip content [...]

My complaint is more general; Windows was not involved at my end. It
looks as if it might have been involved at VSI:

$ unzip -Zv ALPHA_COMMUNITY_LICENSE_PAK.zip

Archive: SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR]ALPHA_COMMUNITY_LICENSE_PAK.zip;1
There is no zipfile comment.
[...]

Central directory entry #1:
---------------------------

ALPHA_COMMUNITY_LICENSE_PAK_SEP_2022.COM

offset of local header from start of archive: 0
(0000000000000000h) bytes
file system or operating system of origin: MS-DOS, OS/2 or NT FAT
[...]

> Need to first unzip on VMS to be able to read the text files.

Did you try that? That's exactly what led to the faulty line endings
in the .COM files on my VMS system. (That, combined with the way the
.zip archives and their contents were made.)

$ @ ALPHA_COMMUNITY_LICENSE_PAK_SEP_2022.COM
%DCL-W-MAXPARM, too many parameters - reenter command with fewer parameters
%DCL-W-NOCOMD, no command on line - reenter with alphabetic first character
%DCL-W-NOCOMD, no command on line - reenter with alphabetic first character
%DCL-W-NOCOMD, no command on line - reenter with alphabetic first character
%DCL-W-NOCOMD, no command on line - reenter with alphabetic first character
%DCL-W-NOCOMD, no command on line - reenter with alphabetic first character
%DCL-W-NOCOMD, no command on line - reenter with alphabetic first character
%DCL-W-NOCOMD, no command on line - reenter with alphabetic first character
%DCL-W-NOCOMD, no command on line - reenter with alphabetic first character
%DCL-W-MAXPARM, too many parameters - reenter command with fewer parameters
%DCL-W-NOCOMD, no command on line - reenter with alphabetic first character
%DCL-W-NOCOMD, no command on line - reenter with alphabetic first character
%DCL-W-NOCOMD, no command on line - reenter with alphabetic first character
%DCL-W-NOCOMD, no command on line - reenter with alphabetic first character
%DCL-W-NOCOMD, no command on line - reenter with alphabetic first character
%DCL-W-NOCOMD, no command on line - reenter with alphabetic first character
%DCL-W-NOCOMD, no command on line - reenter with alphabetic first character
%DCL-W-NOCOMD, no command on line - reenter with alphabetic first character


A different file was also not a roaring success for what might be
related reasons: sys$help:VSI_OPENVMS_CRTL_NOTES.TXT (part of the
RTL-V0500 patch). I suspect that that one looked fine on a Windows
system, too.

It's possible that VMS users would have less trouble if VSI used VMS
more.

[John H. Reinhardt]

I usually rename mine to .DCL on my Mac so it doesn't think it's a Windows file.

--
John H. Reinhardt

[Jan-Erik Söderholm]

Good points, of course. I have not tried to move he zip to any
VMS system, just wanted to look at the COM file... :-)

Now, when it comes to these basic LMF files, it is not uncommon
that one has to copy/paste the content into a console window, and
since the emulated environments usually are on Windows, a Windows
compatilble file might be the right thing anyway.

And it is fine to copy into the console of any AlphaServer also.

[gah4]

I didn't know about TOPS-20 until some years later.

Yes, the usual TOPS-10 file was .SAV, which you got from the SAVE
command, which pretty much wrote memory to disk.

I think I remember the transition for TOPS-10, in about 1977.

[Steven Schweda]

> [...] I have not tried to move [t]he zip to any VMS system, [...]

You should. (I claim.)

> [...] since the emulated environments usually are on Windows, [...]

Mine are on Macs.

> [...] a Windows compatilble file might be the right thing anyway.

Who says that "a Windows compatilble file" can't also be naturally
VMS-compatible? If you fetch any of the software kits from
antinode.info, do you have any trouble reading the text files in them on
a Windows system?

This is starting to sound like those old (bogus) claims that a
"zip -V" archive is _supposed_ to appear corrupt on a non-VMS system.

[Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)]

In article <tfsk6o$2tu7b$2...@dont-email.me>,
=?UTF-8?Q?Jan-Erik_S=c3=b6derholm?= <jan-erik....@telia.com>
writes:

Maybe they just want to ignore folks who do VMS-related stuff on
Windows. :-)

[Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)]

In article <d0c84e94-ede0-448d...@googlegroups.com>,

Steven Schweda <sms.an...@gmail.com> writes:

> > Just got a mail with a link to:
> >
> > "Community license for Alpha servers, valid until September 2023".
>
> My e-mail had links labelled "Get your Integrity license" and "Get
> your Alpha license".
>
> > Downloaded a COM file LMF commands for ALPHA-SYSTEM and ALPHA-LP.
>
> My links led to ".zip" archives (so no ".COM" problem):
>
> ALPHA_COMMUNITY_LICENSE_PAK.zip
> INTEGRITY_COMMUNITY_LICENSE_PAK.zip
>
> which contained:
>
> INTEGRITY_COMMUNITY_LICENSE_PAK_SEP_2022.COM
> ALPHA_COMMUNITY_LICENSE_PAK_SEP_2022.COM
>
> which UnZip 6.00 extracted as Record format: Stream_LF, with
> bonus/spurious CR line endings.
>
> To avoid the defective line endings, you could use "unzip -a" when
> unpacking, or "set file /attr = rfm:stm" after unpacking (without "-a").

Surely they should have used /VMS when zipping it.

[Rich Alderson]

I believe that the .EXE format for executables was introduced by TENEX, the BBN
operating system for the PDP-10 with attached BBN pager, for experiments in
demand-paged virtual memory.

(TOPS-20 was DEC's development of TENEX, with appropriate licensing. Think VSI.)

The .EXE format was ported to Tops-10 later; TOPS-20 was introduced in 1974/5.

--
Rich Alderson ne...@alderson.users.panix.com
Audendum est, et veritas investiganda; quam etiamsi non assequamur,
omnino tamen proprius, quam nunc sumus, ad eam perveniemus.
--Galen

[Steven Schweda]

> Surely they should have used /VMS when zipping it.

You seem to assume that they used Info-ZIP Zip on a VMS system when
making the archive. Evidence suggests otherwise. See above:

> file system or operating system of origin: MS-DOS, OS/2 or NT FAT

I suspect that if the file had been created/stored on a VMS system
and was (easily) readable there, and they had used Info-ZIP Zip on a VMS
system when making the archive, then -V (/VMS) wouldn't have mattered.

I also suspect that if you had a file on a Windows system, with CR+LF
line endings, and used Info-ZIP Zip on a Windows system with "-ll" (as
the "zip -h" help says, "-l convert LF to CR LF (-ll CR LF to LF)"),
then the results might have been better, too.

What does _not_ work well is whatever they actually did with
whichever tools they actually used.

As invited ("If you have any problems or questions, contact us
[...]"), I sent a complaint to the "community" e-mail address. The
reply said:

Thank you for your comments and sorry for the inconvenience. We
will consider changing our process.

So, perhaps all will be well in the future. (Better documentation of
the work-arounds would be better than nothing, but I suspect that
someone at VSI can puzzle out a procedure which can take what they start
with and produce a universally acceptable product.)

[Dave Froble]

On 9/17/2022 4:15 PM, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:

> Surely they should have used /VMS when zipping it.
>

It is my impression that many at VSI have no problem with using WEENDOZE ...

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: da...@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486

[Lars Brinkhoff]

Rich Alderson wrote:
> I believe that the .EXE format for executables was introduced by
> TENEX, the BBN operating system for the PDP-10 with attached BBN
> pager, for experiments in demand-paged virtual memory.

The TENEX format is not exactly the same as the TOPS-20 .EXE, but it's
similar. TENEX names executable files .SAV, not .EXE. TOPS-20 can load
the TENEX format.

I examined the TENEX .SAV format in detail and documented it here:
https://gunkies.org/wiki/TENEX_sharable_save_file

[Bill Gunshannon]

On 9/17/22 21:27, Dave Froble wrote:
> On 9/17/2022 4:15 PM, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:
>
>> Surely they should have used /VMS when zipping it.
>>
>
> It is my impression that many at VSI have no problem with using WEENDOZE
> ...
>

That's probably because most serious VMS users moved out of the 80's
a long time ago. Being as VMS has apparently given up on the desktop
permanently what would you expect most VMS users to be using on their
desktop?

It is interesting that VMS now runs on the hardware found on 99% of
the desktops and there is considerable interest in the concept of
using obscure OSes as a security enhancement (see the latest copy
of CACM for a mention) but we still see no interest in even probing
that niche. :-)

bill

[Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)]

In article <jooqru...@mid.individual.net>, Bill Gunshannon

<bill.gu...@gmail.com> writes:

> That's probably because most serious VMS users moved out of the 80's
> a long time ago. Being as VMS has apparently given up on the desktop
> permanently what would you expect most VMS users to be using on their
> desktop?

If you are using VMS, it doesn't have to be on your desktop, but it
could be.

[Bill Gunshannon]

Maybe if your still running a VAX. I thought VSI said "No desktop"?

bill

[Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)]

In article <jopd9t...@mid.individual.net>, Bill Gunshannon

<bill.gu...@gmail.com> writes:

> On 9/18/22 11:19, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:
> > In article <jooqru...@mid.individual.net>, Bill Gunshannon
> > <bill.gu...@gmail.com> writes:
> >
> >> That's probably because most serious VMS users moved out of the 80's
> >> a long time ago. Being as VMS has apparently given up on the desktop
> >> permanently what would you expect most VMS users to be using on their
> >> desktop?
> >
> > If you are using VMS, it doesn't have to be on your desktop, but it
> > could be.
>
> Maybe if your still running a VAX. I thought VSI said "No desktop"?

Some VAXes will fit on a desktop. Some Alphas. Perhaps some Itaniums.
Presumably some x86.

What does "desktop" mean? If it means using Microsoft products, then of
course VMS on the desktop or the desktop on VMS makes no sense. If it
means literally on the desk then of course often no problem. If it
means use it for email, reading usenet, etc., then I prefer to do that
on VMS than to any other platform.

VSI has said that they will support the on-chip graphics, so presumably
one can continue to run DECterms, CDE, whatever.

Back to the license stuff. They have a file which is used on VMS which
was zipped. Why not zip it on VMS? Or at least pretend to be a
customer and test whatever they send out before sending it out.

[Jan-Erik Söderholm]

Since it is a licens file that might be used for a system with
no previous license, it might be best to make sure that it is
readable on your desktop system to be copy/pasted into the
console using some terminal emulator.

Not having some unique VMS record format that just becomes
a mess if tried to be read on some other system.

[Bill Gunshannon]

On 9/18/22 17:37, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:
> In article <jopd9t...@mid.individual.net>, Bill Gunshannon
> <bill.gu...@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> On 9/18/22 11:19, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:
>>> In article <jooqru...@mid.individual.net>, Bill Gunshannon
>>> <bill.gu...@gmail.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> That's probably because most serious VMS users moved out of the 80's
>>>> a long time ago. Being as VMS has apparently given up on the desktop
>>>> permanently what would you expect most VMS users to be using on their
>>>> desktop?
>>>
>>> If you are using VMS, it doesn't have to be on your desktop, but it
>>> could be.
>>
>> Maybe if your still running a VAX. I thought VSI said "No desktop"?
>
> Some VAXes will fit on a desktop. Some Alphas. Perhaps some Itaniums.
> Presumably some x86.

I think everyone knows that the term desktop does not refer to the
physical size of the box.

>
> What does "desktop" mean? If it means using Microsoft products, then of
> course VMS on the desktop or the desktop on VMS makes no sense. If it
> means literally on the desk then of course often no problem. If it
> means use it for email, reading usenet, etc., then I prefer to do that
> on VMS than to any other platform.

It means the ability to do the things that people today do from their
desktop. Word Processing, Spreadsheet, yes, email and the web. It
does not mean using Microsoft products. I have to basic desktops I
use every day. One is Linux and one is Windows. And even on the
Windows box I use no Microsoft products other than the OS that came
with the box when I got it.

>
> VSI has said that they will support the on-chip graphics, so presumably
> one can continue to run DECterms, CDE, whatever.

Which still won't allow any current technology applications like a
real web browser.

>
> Back to the license stuff. They have a file which is used on VMS which
> was zipped. Why not zip it on VMS? Or at least pretend to be a
> customer and test whatever they send out before sending it out.

Funny, I had no problem unzipping it or looking at the contents.
And when the time comes to install it on a VMS system cut and paste
will work just fine. Actually, a lot better than it used to as
the LP PAK used to be more than a dozen pages long and now appears
to be a single license.

bill

[Bill Gunshannon]

Cut and paste works fine for moving small text files onto a
system, too. But I usually just cut and paste it to the "$"
prompt.

bill

[Steven Schweda]

> Not having some unique VMS record format that just becomes
> a mess if tried to be read on some other system.

So far as I know, "some unique VMS record format" is not needed.
Which part of the following was unclear?:

> Who says that "a Windows compatilble file" can't also be naturally
> VMS-compatible? If you fetch any of the software kits from
> antinode.info, do you have any trouble reading the text files in them on
> a Windows system?

> Funny, I had no problem unzipping it or looking at the contents.

Thanks for that clear, precise description of exactly what you did.

[Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)]

In article <tg83tq$eefm$1...@dont-email.me>,
=?UTF-8?Q?Jan-Erik_S=c3=b6derholm?= <jan-erik....@telia.com>
writes:

> > Back to the license stuff. They have a file which is used on VMS which
> > was zipped. Why not zip it on VMS? Or at least pretend to be a
> > customer and test whatever they send out before sending it out.
>
> Since it is a licens file that might be used for a system with
> no previous license, it might be best to make sure that it is
> readable on your desktop system to be copy/pasted into the
> console using some terminal emulator.
>
> Not having some unique VMS record format that just becomes
> a mess if tried to be read on some other system.

It should be both. Yes, it should be possible to read it elsewhere and
type it in. But most licenses are renewed before the old one expires,
so it is nice to be able to just execute the procedure.

[Jan-Erik Söderholm]

Den 2022-09-19 kl. 07:16, skrev Steven Schweda:
>> Not having some unique VMS record format that just becomes
>> a mess if tried to be read on some other system.
>
> So far as I know, "some unique VMS record format" is not needed.
> Which part of the following was unclear?:
>
>> Who says that "a Windows compatilble file" can't also be naturally
>> VMS-compatible? If you fetch any of the software kits from
>> antinode.info, do you have any trouble reading the text files in them on
>> a Windows system?
>

I was talkning about readme files and source code from VMS kits in
general. I have no idea what the antinode files specifically look like.

Of course usual CR/LF or CR delimted files are usually OK.
But VMS variable records (with that length paramater at the start)
usually just becomes a mess on Windows.

[Steven Schweda]

> I was talkning about readme files and source code from VMS kits in

> general. [...]

I don't know what that means.

> [...] I have no idea what the antinode files specifically look like.

I invite you to investigate. Preferably before further discussing
the inevitability of an easily avoidable problem.

> Of course usual CR/LF or CR delimted files are usually OK.

Of course, "usually" is not good enough

> But VMS variable records (with that length paramater at the start)
> usually just becomes a mess on Windows.

Well, duh. VSI has already demonstrated that this job can be done
badly. And they didn't need variable-length records to do it.

So far as I know, the methods which I use to build my kits escape
such defects, whether or not you bother to look at them.

[Jan-Erik Söderholm]

I have never (as far as I know) said that *your* kits have any
issue, I rather would think the opposit.

I do not know why you are taking this personaly...

I often *do* have issues reading text files (like read-me files
or source code) from zipped VMS kits. In many cases this is due
to that the original files had variable-length records.

I do not understand why you have a problem with that...

[Steven Schweda]

> I do not know why you are taking this personaly...

What's personal? I'm simply bewildered by your apparent
unwillingness to admit that the only problem here is a failure to use
widely available tools in a way which avoids the problem.

> I often *do* have issues reading text files (like read-me files
> or source code) from zipped VMS kits. In many cases this is due
> to that the original files had variable-length records.

Without knowing how these unspecified "zipped VMS kits" were made, or
how you handled them, I can't say why you had trouble. I would note,
however, that Info-ZIP UnZip on non-VMS systems has long had a
"VMS_TEXT_CONV" option (enabled by default -- See "unzip -v"), which is
supposed to deal helpfully with such files. If you rely on other unzip
programs which lack such a feature, then you might complain to their
authors. (If you see Info-ZIP UnZip misbehaving, then feel free to
complain to me.)

> I do not understand why you have a problem with that...

It's simply irrelevant to the problem with the recent VSI-generated
*_COMMUNITY_LICENSE_PAK.zip archives. (Whose files contained no such
variable-length records.)

[Jan-Erik Söderholm]

Den 2022-09-20 kl. 04:14, skrev Steven Schweda:
>> I do not know why you are taking this personaly...
>
> What's personal? I'm simply bewildered by your apparent
> unwillingness to admit that the only problem here is a failure to use
> widely available tools in a way which avoids the problem.

And that causes the issues that I have described.
I have never said that it can't be avoided.

>
>> I often *do* have issues reading text files (like read-me files
>> or source code) from zipped VMS kits. In many cases this is due
>> to that the original files had variable-length records.
>
> Without knowing how these unspecified "zipped VMS kits" were made,

I never expected you to know that. Cool down... :-)

> or
> how you handled them,

I just opened it as any other ZIP file on my laptop.
Windows explorer opens and displays ZIP files just fine.
But it knows nothing about VMS-specific file/record formats.

> I can't say why you had trouble. I would note,
> however, that Info-ZIP UnZip on non-VMS systems has long had a
> "VMS_TEXT_CONV" option (enabled by default -- See "unzip -v"), which is
> supposed to deal helpfully with such files. If you rely on other unzip
> programs which lack such a feature, then you might complain to their
> authors. (If you see Info-ZIP UnZip misbehaving, then feel free to
> complain to me.)
>

No, I have never said anything like that. I still do not know why
you think that I'm complaining to you or on your work. Weird...

>> I do not understand why you have a problem with that...
>
> It's simply irrelevant to the problem with the recent VSI-generated
> *_COMMUNITY_LICENSE_PAK.zip archives. (Whose files contained no such
> variable-length records.)

Yes! Absolutely correct. Those file worked just fine.
That is why made my comment that this is not always the case.

[Simon Clubley]

On 2022-09-18, Bill Gunshannon <bill.gu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Cut and paste works fine for moving small text files onto a
> system, too. But I usually just cut and paste it to the "$"
> prompt.
>

I find C-Kermit's TRANSMIT command to be very useful for situations
like this.

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

[Bill Gunshannon]

On 9/20/22 13:49, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2022-09-18, Bill Gunshannon <bill.gu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Cut and paste works fine for moving small text files onto a
>> system, too. But I usually just cut and paste it to the "$"
>> prompt.
>>
>
> I find C-Kermit's TRANSMIT command to be very useful for situations
> like this.

I only use C-Kermit when I need to transfer files using the
Kermit Protocol. Without any form of terminal emulation it
isn't really of much use. MSKermit, however, has always had
really good DEC Terminal emulation.

bill

[Simon Clubley]

But that isn't how you run C-Kermit.

You run C-Kermit from a shell (ie: bash) running within a terminal
emulator (ie: xterm) and then use C-Kermit's CONNECT command to
connect to the target system.

Your terminal emulator provides the required terminal emulation.

[Bill Gunshannon]

On 9/20/22 14:30, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2022-09-20, Bill Gunshannon <bill.gu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 9/20/22 13:49, Simon Clubley wrote:
>>> On 2022-09-18, Bill Gunshannon <bill.gu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Cut and paste works fine for moving small text files onto a
>>>> system, too. But I usually just cut and paste it to the "$"
>>>> prompt.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I find C-Kermit's TRANSMIT command to be very useful for situations
>>> like this.
>>
>> I only use C-Kermit when I need to transfer files using the
>> Kermit Protocol. Without any form of terminal emulation it
>> isn't really of much use. MSKermit, however, has always had
>> really good DEC Terminal emulation.
>>
>
> But that isn't how you run C-Kermit.
>
> You run C-Kermit from a shell (ie: bash) running within a terminal
> emulator (ie: xterm) and then use C-Kermit's CONNECT command to
> connect to the target system.
>
> Your terminal emulator provides the required terminal emulation.

Xterm is a very poor DEC Emulator. Not bad if you need
Tektronix but otherwise.....

bill

[Simon Clubley]

There's also pterm if you prefer that...

BTW, you do need a proper keyboard mapping script unfortunately, but
I find xterm to be quite usable when talking to VMS systems and when
using the application keypad mode generally.

[Johnny Billquist]

Nonsense. xterm is the best DEC terminal emulator out there, possibly
excluding DEC's own products they sold once upon a time.

Tell me of one you think is better, and I'll tell you where it fails
while xterm works right. :-)

Johnny

[Johnny Billquist]

On 2022-09-20 20:45, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2022-09-20, Bill Gunshannon <bill.gu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 9/20/22 14:30, Simon Clubley wrote:
>>>
>>> But that isn't how you run C-Kermit.
>>>
>>> You run C-Kermit from a shell (ie: bash) running within a terminal
>>> emulator (ie: xterm) and then use C-Kermit's CONNECT command to
>>> connect to the target system.
>>>
>>> Your terminal emulator provides the required terminal emulation.
>>
>> Xterm is a very poor DEC Emulator. Not bad if you need
>> Tektronix but otherwise.....
>>
>
> There's also pterm if you prefer that...
>
> BTW, you do need a proper keyboard mapping script unfortunately, but
> I find xterm to be quite usable when talking to VMS systems and when
> using the application keypad mode generally.

I agree in principle, but am constantly confused about people saying
they need to do all kind of keyboard mapping scripts with xterm.

I've been using xterm for over 30 years, and I've never had to do that,
and been using it against VMS and RSX all the time, and *all* keys work
as you would expect. Both on old sparc stations, DECstations as well as
my MacBook Pro's that I use these days. Haven't even changed anything in
my configuration for the last 20 years or so. Same stuff still works the
same way across the different platforms.

Johnny

[Simon Clubley]

PF1 to PF4 mapping. Are they on F1 to F4 or are they on the top row of
the numeric keypad ?

Do you use application keypad mode ?

Do you use the editing keys between the main keyboard and the numeric keypad?

I had problems with all of these under Linux until I used a keyboard mapping
script and I have continued to use the same setup over the years.

[Johnny Billquist]

On 2022-09-21 14:26, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2022-09-21, Johnny Billquist <b...@softjar.se> wrote:
>> On 2022-09-20 20:45, Simon Clubley wrote:
>>>
>>> BTW, you do need a proper keyboard mapping script unfortunately, but
>>> I find xterm to be quite usable when talking to VMS systems and when
>>> using the application keypad mode generally.
>>
>> I agree in principle, but am constantly confused about people saying
>> they need to do all kind of keyboard mapping scripts with xterm.
>>
>> I've been using xterm for over 30 years, and I've never had to do that,
>> and been using it against VMS and RSX all the time, and *all* keys work
>> as you would expect. Both on old sparc stations, DECstations as well as
>> my MacBook Pro's that I use these days. Haven't even changed anything in
>> my configuration for the last 20 years or so. Same stuff still works the
>> same way across the different platforms.
>>
>
> PF1 to PF4 mapping. Are they on F1 to F4 or are they on the top row of
> the numeric keypad ?

F1 to F4, since the top row of the numeric keypad have keys that are
also on the DEC numeric keypad which I also want. Can't have it both
ways. The DEC numeric keypad have more keys than any PC or Apple
keyboard have.

> Do you use application keypad mode ?

Yes.

> Do you use the editing keys between the main keyboard and the numeric keypad?

Yes.

> I had problems with all of these under Linux until I used a keyboard mapping
> script and I have continued to use the same setup over the years.

All working as well as I could ever wish or expect. And yeah, I even use
EDT from time to time, all behaving nicely. No mapping scripts ever used.

But it took some time to figure out how to actually setup xterm
correctly. But I did that a long time ago, and once it was figured out,
I've never had to do it again.

Johnny

[Johnny Billquist]

By the way. I should perhaps point out that people from DEC were
involved in writing xterm. So it comes from the horses mouth, so to
speak. And I've even fixed a bug in xterm related to escape sequence
processing a number of years ago, so I had to go through the code some.
It is actually rather nice code.

Johnny

[Bill Gunshannon]

I haven't tried using xterm with VMS since I got rid of my last Sparc-3.
Never had any luck with the keypad. Found alternates and never looked
back. Usually ran DECWindows to an X-Terminal (I still have a VXT2000
but it is in need of new electrolytics) so it was really a non-issue
anyway. Today it is usually just Putty to the console port but my VMS
usage is greatly reduced from the good old days.

bill

[Simon Clubley]

On 2022-09-22, Johnny Billquist <b...@softjar.se> wrote:
> On 2022-09-21 14:26, Simon Clubley wrote:
>>
>> PF1 to PF4 mapping. Are they on F1 to F4 or are they on the top row of
>> the numeric keypad ?
>
> F1 to F4, since the top row of the numeric keypad have keys that are
> also on the DEC numeric keypad which I also want. Can't have it both
> ways. The DEC numeric keypad have more keys than any PC or Apple
> keyboard have.
>

For me, having PF1 to PF4 on F1 to F4 is an absolute no-no. I use the EDT
keypad layout heavily every single day and I can't have my fingers flying
across the keyboard every time I need to press one of those keys.

For me, they need to be on the top of the keypad and I do remember that
being a problem in the early days of using xterm. I don't know if things
are better now.

BTW, the only missing key for me on a PC keypad is delete word, which is
something I never used anyway.

[Johnny Billquist]

On 2022-09-22 14:29, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2022-09-22, Johnny Billquist <b...@softjar.se> wrote:
>> On 2022-09-21 14:26, Simon Clubley wrote:
>>>
>>> PF1 to PF4 mapping. Are they on F1 to F4 or are they on the top row of
>>> the numeric keypad ?
>>
>> F1 to F4, since the top row of the numeric keypad have keys that are
>> also on the DEC numeric keypad which I also want. Can't have it both
>> ways. The DEC numeric keypad have more keys than any PC or Apple
>> keyboard have.
>>
>
> For me, having PF1 to PF4 on F1 to F4 is an absolute no-no. I use the EDT
> keypad layout heavily every single day and I can't have my fingers flying
> across the keyboard every time I need to press one of those keys.

Ah. Well, that would be a problem for you then.

> For me, they need to be on the top of the keypad and I do remember that
> being a problem in the early days of using xterm. I don't know if things
> are better now.

Most of the time not, since the choice made in xterm was to use F1-F4
for PF1-PF4. Which is pretty harmless, as a real DEC terminal normally
cannot use F1-F5 anyway, as they are used for local operations.

But yes, these keys are usually physically quite some distance away from
the numeric keyboard.

> BTW, the only missing key for me on a PC keypad is delete word, which is
> something I never used anyway.

And I'm fine with reaching over to F1-F4 when I need those. It's all
different compromises. I can generate all keys I could on a DEC
keyboard, which for me is more important than the location of PF1-PF4.

Johnny

[John Reagan]

For my main system (W10, standard PC keyboard), I use PuTTY out-of-the-box.
I leave it set to Latin-1 and don't bother with DEC-MCS. I edit with LSE almost all
of the time and use the full keypad with no problems. I also use DTM with the
keypad as those finger motions to look/update benchmarks are burned deep in
my brain.

When I use my MacBook, I use iTerm2 and did have to work on the settings for
the top row of the keypad to get them to be PF1-PF4 but after that, they work great.
I can get them out and share if there is interest.

[Craig A. Berry]

On 9/22/22 3:29 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> On 2022-09-21 14:26, Simon Clubley wrote:

>> PF1 to PF4 mapping. Are they on F1 to F4 or are they on the top row of
>> the numeric keypad ?
>
> F1 to F4, since the top row of the numeric keypad have keys that are
> also on the DEC numeric keypad which I also want. Can't have it both
> ways. The DEC numeric keypad have more keys than any PC or Apple
> keyboard have.

I just compared an LK-461 to a full-sized Apple keyboard. The Apple has
a separate ESC key (not doubled up with `~ like the LK) and the LK-461
has F20, which the Apple does not. The LK-461 also has a separate key
for "< >" as well as being the shift of "," and ".". Other than that the
number of keys is identical. The number and layout of the keypad and
navigation keys are identical, though the Apple has a bit more space
between the arrow keys and the other navigation keys. The DEC keypad
definitely does not have more keys than the Apple keypad.

Making all those keys send the codes that VMS will recognize is between
you and your terminal emulator.

[Craig A. Berry]

On 9/22/22 9:57 AM, John Reagan wrote:

> When I use my MacBook, I use iTerm2 and did have to work on the settings for
> the top row of the keypad to get them to be PF1-PF4 but after that, they work great.
> I can get them out and share if there is interest.

I posted what I did for iTerm2 here:

https://groups.google.com/g/comp.os.vms/c/i-CVytjOJ2A/m/SU5qVdgEA_sJ

Possibly there have been changes necessary for various OS and iTerm2
upgrades, but hopefully the general idea still works.

[Jan-Erik Söderholm]

I would not dream of having the "gold" key at the far left of the whole
kayboard. What a mess to hit something like "find" in EDT...

[John H. Reinhardt]

On 9/22/2022 3:29 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote:

>
> F1 to F4, since the top row of the numeric keypad have keys that are also on the DEC numeric keypad which I also want. Can't have it both ways. The DEC numeric keypad have more keys than any PC or Apple keyboard have.
>

>

>   Johnny


Not quite true. As I have posted here many times, the Matias Tactile Pro and Quiet Pro *for Mac* have exactly the same number of numeric keypad keys as a proper DEC keyboard. It's just the Mac version, the PC version is short one just like most other PC keyboards. The other keys on the keyboard are in different places and it only goes up to F18 for function keys but with a terminal program that lets you remap anything (like ZOC) then you can make a usable VMS keyboard from them.

http://matias.ca/tactilepro4/
http://matias.ca/tactilepro4/viewer/?p=2

--
John H. Reinhardt