What kind of systems are now available?
GreyCloud
I am now curious as to what systems are available and whether HP
still sells workstations that are Itanium based.
Arne Vajhøj
Check:
http://h20341.www2.hp.com/integrity/us/en/integrity-servers.html
I believe that they do not offer a special workstation, but
a low end server with a monitor is really a workstation.
Arne
Steven Schweda
> I believe that they do not offer a special workstation, but
> a low end server with a monitor is really a workstation.
It may be a very loud workstation, if you're not careful.
Some of these things may offer a low-noise fan option, and you
may be sorry if you expect to work near one with the normally
loud fans. (If you're not deaf yet, ...)
My (loud) rx2600 is better in most ways than my (quiet)
zx2000, but the zx2000 gets used more.
urbancamo
OpenVMS 8.3. It is the same as the rx2600 (dual Itanium 2, upto 24GB
RAM, 3 x 3.5" U320 SCSI drives) but without the redundant power supply
and with a reduced noise footprint. It comes with side panels to make
it stand up on end, but it is a full 19" rackmount length, so don't
expect to stand it next to your TFT monitor on your desk! They can be
had on ebay for a couple hundred bucks. The current entry-level server
that can be bought new is the rx2660 - this can also be had with an
'office friendly' kit which reduces noise. The ZX2000 is a smaller
footprint, single processor version of the ZX6000 - it has more
desktop-appropriate dimensions.
Note that the rx2660 uses 2.5" SAS drives which from a hobbyists
perspective are much, much more difficult to get hold of at a
reasonable price compared to the 3.5" UltraSCSI 320 drives that the
ZX6000/ZX2000 and rx2600 support.
Regards, Mark
Volker Halle
VAX and Alpha systems.
There is simh (freeware), then there are also CHARON-VAX and CHARON-
AXP (freeware and commercial versions by Stromasys), there is a
freeware ES40 (es40.org) and there is the upcoming VAX and Alpha
emulator from Migration Specialties.
Volker.
Heuser
A zx6000/zx2000 runs V8.3-1H1 and FT8.4, too.
regards
Eberhard
Neil Rieck
If you are buying something for personal use, check out the Itanium
boxes on eBay. Many of these systems are from repo companies but the
deals are too good to pass up (I still remember one sale a few months
back that involved a lot of three rx2600 systems that went for $750
(they were all dual core CPUs with 12 GB of memory). At that price you
could build one system then use the other two for spare parts (or
resell to an OpenVMS buddy)
NSR
Jan-Erik Soderholm
My "VMS-workstation" is a WinXP PC with Reflection.
Why do you think that you realy need VMS running on
your actual table ?
glen herrmannsfeldt
(snip)
> Note that the rx2660 uses 2.5" SAS drives which from a hobbyists
> perspective are much, much more difficult to get hold of at a
> reasonable price compared to the 3.5" UltraSCSI 320 drives that the
> ZX6000/ZX2000 and rx2600 support.
Per drive or per gigabyte?
I find 3.5" SAS SCSI drives in 9GB, 18GB, and maybe 36GB
for reasonable prices, but nothing bigger than that.
-- glen
Michael Kraemer
<jan-erik....@telia.com> writes:
> On 2010-03-03 01:34, GreyCloud wrote:
> > It has been ages since I last worked in a VMS shop.
> > I am now curious as to what systems are available and whether HP
> > still sells workstations that are Itanium based.
>
> My "VMS-workstation" is a WinXP PC with Reflection.
That's not a "VMS-workstation", it's still a Wintel PC
with all the Wincrap under the hood.
> Why do you think that you realy need VMS running on
> your actual table ?
Maybe because a real enthusiast would want the real thing,
not a lame surrogate?
Jan-Erik Soderholm
> In article<hmlg1n$4l1$1...@news.albasani.net>, Jan-Erik Soderholm
> <jan-erik....@telia.com> writes:
>> On 2010-03-03 01:34, GreyCloud wrote:
>>> It has been ages since I last worked in a VMS shop.
>>> I am now curious as to what systems are available and whether HP
>>> still sells workstations that are Itanium based.
>>
>> My "VMS-workstation" is a WinXP PC with Reflection.
>
> That's not a "VMS-workstation", it's still a Wintel PC
> with all the Wincrap under the hood.
>
There is no "wincrap" on my PC, whatever that is.
>> Why do you think that you realy need VMS running on
>> your actual table ?
>
> Maybe because a real enthusiast would want the real thing,
> not a lame surrogate?
Pure nonsense, of course.
I am an VMS enthusiast and my VMS box is just a few meters
from my desk. But I do not force myself into using the VMS
box for things where it isn't "the right thing", and that
is quite a lot of things these days...
FredK
the best solution. It runs fairly quiet and cool. I tend to use my rx2620
more than my rx2660 because of the difference in fan noise.
"urbancamo" <ma...@wickensonline.co.uk> wrote in message
news:795d4465-ec6e-4840...@d27g2000yqf.googlegroups.com...
Snowshoe
>
> If you are buying something for personal use, check out the Itanium
> boxes on eBay. Many of these systems are from repo companies but the
> deals are too good to pass up (I still remember one sale a few months
> back that involved a lot of three rx2600 systems that went for $750
> (they were all dual core CPUs with 12 GB of memory). At that price you
> could build one system then use the other two for spare parts (or
> resell to an OpenVMS buddy)
What kind of video card can be put into an rx2600 running VMS?
Kari Uusimäki
ATI Radeon 7500 (HP Part# AB551A)
http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/integrity/integrity_io_options.html
Bill Gunshannon
Steven Schweda <sms.an...@gmail.com> writes:
Hey, Anybody remember those really long Video cables (with the
keyboard and a hockey puck mouse) on the VAX? :-)
I used to run them under the floor from the computer room to my
desk so I never heard the fans. :-)
bill
--
Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
bill...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton |
Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
Arne Vajhøj
> Arne Vajh�j wrote:
>> I believe that they do not offer a special workstation, but
>> a low end server with a monitor is really a workstation.
>
> It may be a very loud workstation, if you're not careful.
> Some of these things may offer a low-noise fan option, and you
> may be sorry if you expect to work near one with the normally
> loud fans. (If you're not deaf yet, ...)
That is a good point.
Arne
Phillip Helbig---undress to reply
<795d4465-ec6e-4840...@d27g2000yqf.googlegroups.com>,
urbancamo <ma...@wickensonline.co.uk> writes:
Thanks for the info. How does the power consumption of these compare to
something like a VAXstation 4000 or a DEC 3000 (first-generation ALPHA)
or later ALPHAstation?
urbancamo
undress to reply) wrote:
> In article
> <795d4465-ec6e-4840-84e9-0bc993db6...@d27g2000yqf.googlegroups.com>,
ZX6000 - 370 watts
VAXstation 4000 - 110 watts
DEC 3000 - 230 watts
urbancamo
> In article <64083600-0558-4dcf-b933-abc05dfd4...@19g2000yqu.googlegroups.com>,
> Steven Schweda <sms.antin...@gmail.com> writes:
>
> > Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> >> I believe that they do not offer a special workstation, but
> >> a low end server with a monitor is really a workstation.
> > It may be a very loud workstation, if you're not careful.
> > Some of these things may offer a low-noise fan option, and you
> > may be sorry if you expect to work near one with the normally
> > loud fans. (If you're not deaf yet, ...)
> > My (loud) rx2600 is better in most ways than my (quiet)
> > zx2000, but the zx2000 gets used more.
>
> Hey, Anybody remember those really long Video cables (with the
> keyboard and a hockey puck mouse) on the VAX? :-)
> I used to run them under the floor from the computer room to my
> desk so I never heard the fans. :-)
>
> bill
>
> --
> Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
> University of Scranton |
> Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
Stil finding them very useful here ;)
Phillip Helbig---undress to reply
<d32bc950-20c0-4551...@k17g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>,
urbancamo <ma...@wickensonline.co.uk> writes:
> > Thanks for the info. How does the power consumption of these compare to
> > something like a VAXstation 4000 or a DEC 3000 (first-generation ALPHA)
> > or later ALPHAstation?
>
> ZX6000 - 370 watts
> VAXstation 4000 - 110 watts
> DEC 3000 - 230 watts
Hhmmm.... This means an Itanium system would be rather expensive for a
(poor) hobbyist due to the power costs (which will quickly outstrip the
cost of getting a used box on Ebay), especially if it is left on all the
time. However, it's not completely out of the question for something
which is switched on only when necessary.
(Now, I have a VAXstation 4000, a VAX 4000 and a DEC 3000 in my
permanent cluster at home. An ALPHAserver 1200 is booted as a satellite
when more power is needed, mainly for Mozilla. I now have a couple of
XP9000 systems and it might be possible to keep these in the cluster all
the time, as a replacement for one of the other systems, and not have to
boot up the 1200 for Mozilla (the XP9000 is faster than the 1200).)
Bill Gunshannon
urbancamo <ma...@wickensonline.co.uk> writes:
> On Mar 3, 6:06�pm, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
>> In article <64083600-0558-4dcf-b933-abc05dfd4...@19g2000yqu.googlegroups.com>,
>> � � � � Steven Schweda <sms.antin...@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>> >> I believe that they do not offer a special workstation, but
>> >> a low end server with a monitor is really a workstation.
>> > � �It may be a very loud workstation, if you're not careful.
>> > Some of these things may offer a low-noise fan option, and you
>> > may be sorry if you expect to work near one with the normally
>> > loud fans. �(If you're not deaf yet, ...)
>> > � �My (loud) rx2600 is better in most ways than my (quiet)
>> > zx2000, but the zx2000 gets used more.
>>
>> Hey, �Anybody remember those really long Video cables (with the
>> keyboard and a hockey puck mouse) on the VAX? �:-)
>> I used to run them under the floor from the computer room to my
>> desk so I never heard the fans. �:-)
>>
>> bill
>>
>> --
>> Bill Gunshannon � � � � �| �de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. �Three wolves
>> billg...@cs.scranton.edu | �and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
>> University of Scranton � |
>> Scranton, Pennsylvania � | � � � � #include <std.disclaimer.h> �
> Stil finding them very useful here ;)
Yeah, me too!!! :-)
bill
--
Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
bill...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
Bill Gunshannon
hel...@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---undress to reply) writes:
> In article
> <d32bc950-20c0-4551...@k17g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>,
> urbancamo <ma...@wickensonline.co.uk> writes:
>
>> > Thanks for the info. How does the power consumption of these compare to
>> > something like a VAXstation 4000 or a DEC 3000 (first-generation ALPHA)
>> > or later ALPHAstation?
>>
>> ZX6000 - 370 watts
>> VAXstation 4000 - 110 watts
>> DEC 3000 - 230 watts
>
> Hhmmm.... This means an Itanium system would be rather expensive for a
> (poor) hobbyist due to the power costs (which will quickly outstrip the
> cost of getting a used box on Ebay), especially if it is left on all the
> time.
You know, I see this mentioned every once in a while. And I have had
people ask me how I can afford the power consumption of my PDP-11's and
VAXen. Do people really not understand their eveyday power consumption?
A 3-way Lamp in the living room draws more power than the VAXstation
4000.
The ceiling light in my bedroom draws more power than the DEC 3000.
Do you have children? Ever notice how many lights they leave on all
over the house?
Are you married? Wife ever forget to turn off her curling iron?
Do you have a fridge?
Ever leave the oven on after cooking a meal only to discover it an hour
later?
Ever look at the power consumption of a toaster? Electric Iron?
Or a Microwave oven!!
I can honestly say that my big iron does not even show up as a
discernable blip in our monthly electric bill. My wife can not
even tell when I have equipment on or not and she can never tell
how much is running unless she gets close enough to hear them. At
least not since I got rid of my last RA81. :-)
Phillip Helbig---undress to reply
Gunshannon) writes:
> > Hhmmm.... This means an Itanium system would be rather expensive for a
> > (poor) hobbyist due to the power costs (which will quickly outstrip the
> > cost of getting a used box on Ebay), especially if it is left on all the
> > time.
>
> You know, I see this mentioned every once in a while. And I have had
> people ask me how I can afford the power consumption of my PDP-11's and
> VAXen. Do people really not understand their eveyday power consumption?
I certainly noticed an increase in my bill after setting up hardware at
home. Also, it's 3 nodes in the cluster plus expansion boxes for disks
etc.
A power consumption of 40 watts is about 1 kilowatt-hour per day. At 20
cents per kilowatt-hour that's 20 cents a day or 6.00 per month. A
cluster consuming a total of 1000 watts would be 150.00 per month,
certainly noticeable (about what a pack-a-day smoker spends for tobacco
in a month or the difference between driving a small car and a big car,
considering all the costs (fuel, tax, insurance, cost of the car).
I'll have to measure the actual consumption, as opposed to what is
printed on the back panels. Presumably the former will be less, but on
the other hand the total of all the wattages on the back panels is more
than a kilowatt.
VAXman-
> hel...@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---undress to reply) writes:
>> In article
>> <d32bc950-20c0-4551...@k17g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>,
>> urbancamo <ma...@wickensonline.co.uk> writes:
>>
>>> > Thanks for the info. How does the power consumption of these compare to
>>> > something like a VAXstation 4000 or a DEC 3000 (first-generation ALPHA)
>>> > or later ALPHAstation?
>>>
>>> ZX6000 - 370 watts
>>> VAXstation 4000 - 110 watts
>>> DEC 3000 - 230 watts
>>
>> Hhmmm.... This means an Itanium system would be rather expensive for a
>> (poor) hobbyist due to the power costs (which will quickly outstrip the
>> cost of getting a used box on Ebay), especially if it is left on all the
>> time.
>
>You know, I see this mentioned every once in a while. And I have had
>people ask me how I can afford the power consumption of my PDP-11's and
>VAXen. Do people really not understand their eveyday power consumption?
>
>A 3-way Lamp in the living room draws more power than the VAXstation
>4000.
>The ceiling light in my bedroom draws more power than the DEC 3000.
>Do you have children? Ever notice how many lights they leave on all
>over the house?
YES. One of the reasons I've invested in CFL. Now, if they'd only have
the longevity of the old incandescents. I'm replacing them with good ol'
incandescents when they go until the "technology" is perfected. Maybe I
should try the LED lamps.
>Are you married? Wife ever forget to turn off her curling iron?
My wife has beautiful long straight hair.
>Do you have a fridge?
>Ever leave the oven on after cooking a meal only to discover it an hour
>later?
I can leave my oven on all day and it will not be noticeable on my electic
bill.
>Ever look at the power consumption of a toaster? Electric Iron?
>Or a Microwave oven!!
Save money:
Whole wheat, multi-grain, untoasted.
Permanent press.
Cold pizza.
--
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG
http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
Yeah. You know, it occurs to me that the best way you hurt rich people is by
turning them into poor people. -- Billy Ray Valentine
Bill Gunshannon
I don't deny that it consumes measurable power, I am just saying that
it is very likely in the average household (at least int he USofA) the
average habits of spouses and children make this pale by comparison.
I live in an old (read, poorly designed, built and insulated) house
in the frozen north. I have a space heater (designed to heat a garage)
that I have to run all winter to keep my pipes from freezing. It draws
more power than an 11/44. And, when you throw in the fact that we have
an "averaged" billing system with the electric company the actualy power
consumption of my toys becomes totally invisible. And as long as my
wife doesn't complain, I think the cost is greatly outweighed by the
pleasure (and stress relief) I get playing with them.
Bill Gunshannon
Yeah, I tried CFL's, too. Once I use up what I have left I will
probably stop. They provide much less light (requiring that one
put in higher wattage bulbs to get equivalent illumination). They
were supposed to last years, I have already had to replace a number
of them. Many of them from one particular country if manufacture
have been listed as the cause of many house fires. (and another
potential problem with living in a house as old as mine is the
dryness of the wood. I expect this house would burn to the found-
ation befiore the fire company ever got here.) And probably the
biggest one that I am positive the users of CFL's are not aware of!!
Have you ever dropped a bulb while changing them and had it break?
You realize if you do that with a CFL you are actually supposed to
evacuate the area and have a haxMat team come in to clean it up.
At least, that's the legal requirement!!
>
>
>>Are you married? Wife ever forget to turn off her curling iron?
>
> My wife has beautiful long straight hair.
>
>
>>Do you have a fridge?
>>Ever leave the oven on after cooking a meal only to discover it an hour
>>later?
>
> I can leave my oven on all day and it will not be noticeable on my electic
> bill.
Same result in the long run. Consumes energy, costs money. Usually
more than the power consumed by a VS3100 and a lot less fun. :-)
>
>
>>Ever look at the power consumption of a toaster? Electric Iron?
>>Or a Microwave oven!!
>
> Save money:
>
> Whole wheat, multi-grain, untoasted.
> Permanent press.
> Cold pizza.
Yeah, you could go Amish and then you wouldn't have any concern at all
about power consumption by an Itanium server. :-) There is a reason
I don't live in a third-world country. I like my life style and I have
spent a lot of my time defending that way of life. I am not about to
willingly give it up. if it ever passes the break-even point I would
(and have) seriously consider alternatives like solar and wind power
(does anyone else remember when Popular Science used to run articles about
setting up personal hydro-electric systems?) but until then, as long as
I can afford it, I will continue to run my big iron.
Len Whitwer
> It has been ages since I last worked in a VMS shop.
> I am now curious as to what systems are available and whether HP
> still sells workstations that are Itanium based.
If you are looking for a CHEAP Itanium workstation/server with VMS we
can
help you out. $500. (See Below)
o rx2600, 4GB Mem, GPX, 18GB SCSI Disks, (Qty=2) 1GB NIC
and hobbiest VMS. We will pre-load and test everything for you
before shipping.
-Len Whitwer
Senior Sales Rep.
Puget Sound Data Systems
19501 144th Ave NE , Suite D-100
Woodinville, WA 98072
Ph: 425-488-0710
Fax: 425-488-6414
Email: l...@psds.com
Web Page: www.psds.com
GreyCloud
> On 02-03-2010 19:34, GreyCloud wrote:
>> It has been ages since I last worked in a VMS shop.
>> I am now curious as to what systems are available and whether HP
>> still sells workstations that are Itanium based.
>
> http://h20341.www2.hp.com/integrity/us/en/integrity-servers.html
>
> I believe that they do not offer a special workstation, but
> a low end server with a monitor is really a workstation.
>
So can I assume that DecWindows is no longer provided for the latest
OpenVMS?
GreyCloud
I suppose I should have also ask as to what kind of industries still use
OpenVMS. I know mission critical needs pretty much demand OpenVMS, but
not sure what is going on in the IT world since I left ages ago.
As for my needs, I have a couple of VLCs that have a couple of toy
clocks on order. Both have DecWindows installed, but no mouse,
keyboard, or display. The display I could use a display cable adapter
to mate to a VGA type LCD display, but I haven't been able to find one.
The mouse connector is DEC proprietary as with the keyboard, and would
really like to get DecWindows working.
Jan-Erik Soderholm
>
> Yeah, you could go Amish and then you wouldn't have any concern at all
> about power consumption by an Itanium server. :-) There is a reason
> I don't live in a third-world country.
Of course. And the main reason is probably the fact that you
wasn't *born* there, not ? I'd bet that it's nothing that
you have selected or choosen.
> I like my life style and I have
> spent a lot of my time defending that way of life. I am not about to
> willingly give it up... if it ever passes the break-even point I would
> (and have) seriously consider alternatives like solar and wind power
> (does anyone else remember when Popular Science used to run articles about
> setting up personal hydro-electric systems?) but until then, as long as
> I can afford it,
[talking about your "way of life"...]
Problem is that the rest of the world can't afford it. Not that
anyone over there would ever understand that, but anyway...
Bob Koehler
>
> I certainly noticed an increase in my bill after setting up hardware at
> home. Also, it's 3 nodes in the cluster plus expansion boxes for disks
> etc.
My home cluster makes a pretty good resistance heater for the
basement. So I just don't keep it running unless I'm using it.
Heat pumps are alright, but I can't afford electric resistance
heat.
Bob Koehler
>
> So can I assume that DecWindows is no longer provided for the latest
> OpenVMS?
Yes it is, as is the driver for the graphics cards. HP just doesn't
market VMS workstations.
Michael Moroney
>I don't deny that it consumes measurable power, I am just saying that
>it is very likely in the average household (at least int he USofA) the
>average habits of spouses and children make this pale by comparison.
>I live in an old (read, poorly designed, built and insulated) house
>in the frozen north. I have a space heater (designed to heat a garage)
>that I have to run all winter to keep my pipes from freezing. It draws
>more power than an 11/44. And, when you throw in the fact that we have
>an "averaged" billing system with the electric company the actualy power
>consumption of my toys becomes totally invisible. And as long as my
>wife doesn't complain, I think the cost is greatly outweighed by the
>pleasure (and stress relief) I get playing with them.
Something else to keep in mind. You get heat from your systems. Unless
you run them in a garage or something where it doesn't get used, they heat
your house. This is a good thing in winter in cold areas, and a bad thing
in summer/hot areas.
In winter where you want the heat, your actual cost to run your systems is
the difference between the cost of the electricity and the cost of the
gas/oil you use to heat your house that produces the same amount of heat.
If you use electric resistance heating ($$$) your computer's electric
usage is free. (Bill G.'s systems would be "free" to run if he located
them in the same room he has to use the space heater in)
In the summer you have the opposite problem. You are trying to get rid
of the heat. Not only do you pay to run the systems which produce heat,
you have to run the A/C more to get rid of the additional heat.
Michael Moroney
>In article <00A99F07...@sendspamhere.org>,
> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:
>>
>> YES. One of the reasons I've invested in CFL. Now, if they'd only have
>> the longevity of the old incandescents. I'm replacing them with good ol'
>> incandescents when they go until the "technology" is perfected. Maybe I
>> should try the LED lamps.
>Yeah, I tried CFL's, too. Once I use up what I have left I will
>probably stop. They provide much less light (requiring that one
>put in higher wattage bulbs to get equivalent illumination). They
>were supposed to last years, I have already had to replace a number
>of them. Many of them from one particular country if manufacture
>have been listed as the cause of many house fires. (and another
>potential problem with living in a house as old as mine is the
>dryness of the wood. I expect this house would burn to the found-
>ation befiore the fire company ever got here.) And probably the
>biggest one that I am positive the users of CFL's are not aware of!!
>Have you ever dropped a bulb while changing them and had it break?
>You realize if you do that with a CFL you are actually supposed to
>evacuate the area and have a haxMat team come in to clean it up.
>At least, that's the legal requirement!!
I've use CFL's since before they were really compact (before they invented
the idea of make them curly) Some brands/places of manufacture don't have
the promised long life these days. I still have one or two of my old U
shaped ones in my basement, 20+ years old. I might have more in operation
but I've broken two because they hang low and I hit and broke them.
I really dislike how they market them by assuming you also want to
decrease the light output in addition to saving power by going with CFLs
in the first place. I just compensate by reversing the step when I buy
them (if I want to replace a 75 watt incandescent, I buy the CFL that
claims to replace the next size up, a 100 watt bulb, or I check the
actual lumens)
The mercury scare if you break them is foolishness. First, there's
mercury in *all* fluorescents, including the long tubes. They'll have
more, in fact. Second, elemental mercury isn't what's harmful. It's
mercury compounds that are nasty.
Arne Vajhøj
No - they do.
DECWindows works fine with "a low end server with a monitor".
Note though that DECWindows is not exactly 2010 UI.
Arne
Steven Schweda
> As for my needs, I have a couple of VLCs that have a couple of toy
> clocks on order. Both have DecWindows installed, but no mouse,
> keyboard, or display. The display I could use a display cable adapter
> to mate to a VGA type LCD display, but I haven't been able to find one.
> The mouse connector is DEC proprietary as with the keyboard, and would
> really like to get DecWindows working.
It's not only the mouse _connector_ that's proprietary. So
far as I know, if you want a mouse on an old VAX, then you
need an old mouse. VSXXX-AA (DECburger), for example. The
keyboard from any old VTxxx terminal (where xxx > 200) should
work, and is usually easier to find than the mouse.
One advantage (among many) of a newer Alpha or IA64 system
is the improved availability of suitable accessories.
I'll admit that I haven't looked into adapting a modern
mouse to an old VAX, but I can't recall hearing of any
adapters, either.
"find one"! What happened to "make one"? Are you sure
that you're qualified to own a pile of old junk?
urbancamo
ZX6000 - 370 watts
VAXstation 4000 - 110 watts
DEC 3000 - 230 watts
Just to let you know - these are measured values, not maximum power
supply ratings.
The ZX6000 has 16GB of RAM, 3 x Ultra320 hard disks and 2 x 1.3 Ghz
Itanium 2 Madison class processors. The graphics card is an ATI 7500
PCI so not much being sucked for graphics.
The VAXstation 4000/90 has two internal 18GB hard drives. No external
enclosures.
The DEC 3000/600 has two internal 18GB drives, no external enclosures.
What I would also say is that a lot of these boxes draw significant
power even when switched off - consider the VAXstation 4000/90 - the
hard power switch you would have thought would isolate the power
supply from the mains but it doesn't - it's drawing 25 watts even when
switched off - so it's worth isolating these older boxes from the
supply when not in use with an extension/wall switch (the Itanium box
does the same).
I'm happy for people to spend their money using boxes - seems
pointless them wasting energy when not in use. The ZX6000 generates
noticeable heat - it tends to be nice in the winter and uncomfortable
in the summer.
If you want a VMS box that's cheap on electricity - my VAXstation 4000/
VLC with 24 MB of RAM runs at 45 watts with one internal hard drive.
Most of the time it is good enough for my limited hobbyist needs. It's
been clear from previous discussions on power that both price and
pricing structure varies wildly between geographic locations. So
everyone _will_ have a different opinion. Here in the UK power is
charged on use and that charge has been steadily increasing over the
years. Running a big box 24x7 would put a significant dent in the
electricity bill. However, if you use the boxes then that's fine by
me... it's a noble hobby after all!
Did you see that study recently that worked out that the food
production required to keep a large dog is produces equivalent CO2
emissions to running an SUV?
Regards, Mark
GreyCloud
Of course! I worked for the Navy... they are always refurbing
boat-anchor electronics that are completely obsolete. I remember having
to redesign an old circuit that used the 2N38 transistor design methods
for a modern transistor to work in. But some things are worth looking
into to determine if it really is worth it. I was hoping that HP would
make a low cost Itanium system, but knowing them it won't happen any
time soon.
Marc Van Dyck
>
> Did you see that study recently that worked out that the food
> production required to keep a large dog is produces equivalent CO2
> emissions to running an SUV?
>
> Regards, Mark
We are getting out of topic, but... yes I have seen this study
and it is largely garbage. The author constantly ignored the fact
that meat included in pet food is largely composed of pieces that
are not suitable for human consumption. It basically is there
whether pets will consume it or not. Producing pet food is a way
to use this supply that would otherwise be dumped. So real CO2
emissions produced by pet food processing results only from the
transformation of this meat, not from its production itself.
That subtle difference changes the results entirely.
The same study, however, also demonstrates how deep we are damaging
the environment by having, us, not pets, a food regime too heavily
based on animal meat. Not counting the damages we inflict on ourselves
by eating all this meat...
--
Marc Van Dyck
Bill Gunshannon
mor...@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) writes:
> bill...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>
>>I don't deny that it consumes measurable power, I am just saying that
>>it is very likely in the average household (at least int he USofA) the
>>average habits of spouses and children make this pale by comparison.
>>I live in an old (read, poorly designed, built and insulated) house
>>in the frozen north. I have a space heater (designed to heat a garage)
>>that I have to run all winter to keep my pipes from freezing. It draws
>>more power than an 11/44. And, when you throw in the fact that we have
>>an "averaged" billing system with the electric company the actualy power
>>consumption of my toys becomes totally invisible. And as long as my
>>wife doesn't complain, I think the cost is greatly outweighed by the
>>pleasure (and stress relief) I get playing with them.
>
> Something else to keep in mind. You get heat from your systems. Unless
> you run them in a garage or something where it doesn't get used, they heat
> your house. This is a good thing in winter in cold areas, and a bad thing
> in summer/hot areas.
I have never even noticed the heat from any of these systems.
>
> In winter where you want the heat, your actual cost to run your systems is
> the difference between the cost of the electricity and the cost of the
> gas/oil you use to heat your house that produces the same amount of heat.
> If you use electric resistance heating ($$$) your computer's electric
> usage is free. (Bill G.'s systems would be "free" to run if he located
> them in the same room he has to use the space heater in)
Wellll......
1. The area needing heating is a crawlspace. Nothing bigger than a
VS3100 is likely to fit.
2. The last system I had that could generate that kind of heat was
an Apollo Workstation. It could drive you out of a room in the
dead of winter. But I got rid of it long ago.
>
> In the summer you have the opposite problem. You are trying to get rid
> of the heat. Not only do you pay to run the systems which produce heat,
> you have to run the A/C more to get rid of the additional heat.
I have never needed A/C for any system I had at home since I got
rid of the Apollo.
It seems people overestimate both the power consumed and the heat generated
by these systems. Heck, I have seen professional installations of MicroVAX
located in closets with no ventilation at all.
Bill Gunshannon
Jan-Erik Soderholm <jan-erik....@telia.com> writes:
> On 2010-03-04 16:28, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>
>>
>> Yeah, you could go Amish and then you wouldn't have any concern at all
>> about power consumption by an Itanium server. :-) There is a reason
>> I don't live in a third-world country.
>
> Of course. And the main reason is probably the fact that you
> wasn't *born* there, not ? I'd bet that it's nothing that
> you have selected or choosen.
Au contraire. I have had the "priveledge" of visiting some third-world
countries. I live and work with people who think vacationing there is
great. And love third-world cuisine on their dinner table. I have
had numerous opportunities to "choose" third-world culture. I choose
not to.
>
>> I like my life style and I have
>> spent a lot of my time defending that way of life. I am not about to
>> willingly give it up... if it ever passes the break-even point I would
>> (and have) seriously consider alternatives like solar and wind power
>> (does anyone else remember when Popular Science used to run articles about
>> setting up personal hydro-electric systems?) but until then, as long as
>> I can afford it,
>
> [talking about your "way of life"...]
> Problem is that the rest of the world can't afford it. Not that
> anyone over there would ever understand that, but anyway...
You know, most of the world was settled prior to the North American
Continent and definitely prior to the creation of the US. So, just
who's fault is it that they are not as successful as we are?
Bill Gunshannon
Haven't found a CFL yet that does. I have found incandescents that burned
out since I bought this house that I didn't install. That makes them over
20 years old.
>
> I really dislike how they market them by assuming you also want to
> decrease the light output in addition to saving power by going with CFLs
> in the first place. I just compensate by reversing the step when I buy
> them (if I want to replace a 75 watt incandescent, I buy the CFL that
> claims to replace the next size up, a 100 watt bulb, or I check the
> actual lumens)
So, that kinda defeats one of the main purposes of using them, doesn't it?
75W -> 100W that's a 33% increase in power consumption.
>
> The mercury scare if you break them is foolishness. First, there's
> mercury in *all* fluorescents, including the long tubes. They'll have
> more, in fact. Second, elemental mercury isn't what's harmful. It's
> mercury compounds that are nasty.
The same rules apply to fluorescent tubes. If you break them you are
supposed to report it to the EPA and have the area cleaned by a licensed
HazMat.
I remember an incident at the local Armory during one of my NG drills. A
medic dropped a mercury thermometer. Now, just how much mercury is really
in something that small? They evacuated the building and EPA did send in
a HazMat team to clean it up. It took the rest of the day and cost thousands
of dollars. The government takes mercury contamination very seriously.
glen herrmannsfeldt
(snip)
> Wellll......
> 1. The area needing heating is a crawlspace. Nothing bigger than a
> VS3100 is likely to fit.
> 2. The last system I had that could generate that kind of heat was
> an Apollo Workstation. It could drive you out of a room in the
> dead of winter. But I got rid of it long ago.
(snip)
There have been stories of college dorms that didn't allow
heaters, but did allow computers. Running old Sun workstations
kept the room nice and warm, and didn't violate the rules.
-- glen
Arne Vajhøj
> In article<hmosjf$9l$1...@news.albasani.net>,
> Jan-Erik Soderholm<jan-erik....@telia.com> writes:
>> On 2010-03-04 16:28, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>> Yeah, you could go Amish and then you wouldn't have any concern at all
>>> about power consumption by an Itanium server. :-) There is a reason
>>> I don't live in a third-world country.
>>
>> Of course. And the main reason is probably the fact that you
>> wasn't *born* there, not ? I'd bet that it's nothing that
>> you have selected or choosen.
>
> Au contraire. I have had the "priveledge" of visiting some third-world
> countries. I live and work with people who think vacationing there is
> great. And love third-world cuisine on their dinner table. I have
> had numerous opportunities to "choose" third-world culture. I choose
> not to.
Note that it is asymmetric.
A US citizen could chose to live in Congo.
A Congo citizen could not chose to live in US.
Arne
Arne Vajhøj
> I suppose I should have also ask as to what kind of industries still use
> OpenVMS. I know mission critical needs pretty much demand OpenVMS, but
> not sure what is going on in the IT world since I left ages ago.
Lots of mission critical systems runs other things than VMS.
But VMS systems very often are mission critical.
I would say that VMS is still used where:
* they started with VMS back in the 1980's
* the applications they use are still available for VMS
* the systems are so important that the costs of the systems
is not important or the cost and/or risk of migrating to
another platform is high enough to kill any ambitious
migration projects
Arne
H Vlems
> In article <hmo1ak$iq...@online.de>,> > <d32bc950-20c0-4551-a0b3-780b4a5d9...@k17g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>,
> University of Scranton |
> Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h> - Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
The average dutch household uses between 2000 and 3500 kWh annually
(based on what I hear from friends and neighbours).
My annual power bill lists 7500 kWh (or more).
Somehow, someway I guess there might be a relation bteween that high
number and the amount of computers in the house :-)
I have no idea what you pay in the USA but in the Netherlands 1 kWh is
around €0.22, say $ 0.30. I can imagine that Germany is at least as
expensive so I understand Phillips' concern.
Hans
H Vlems
> In article <hmoe41$v9...@online.de>,> > In article <7v9r95Fqi...@mid.individual.net>, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill
> University of Scranton |
> Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h> - Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
:-)
Any idea what you pay per kWh Bill?
When I got my first VAX in 1988, a VAXstation 2000 with monitor, TK50
but no disk expansion cabinet, it was switched on 24x7.
Usually the annual meter readouts for gas, water and electricity are
registered by phone (nowadays the internet of course).
But in 1989 we got a surprise visit from the mains power company. They
checked whether the meter wasn't malfunctioning.
My wife mentioned the computer and the mystery was solved. The extra
cost was 0.35 NLG per day, affordable. One VAX became a three node
VMScluster which cost NLG 1 per day. After 1992 prices for mains power
and additional charges went up so the systems got switched off when
not in use. A regime which, I feel, reduces the MTBF.
Hans
H Vlems
> University of Scranton |
> Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h> - Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Incidentally, homegrown marihuana is a lively business in this
country. Last year two houses in my neighbourhood got raided. There
are two ways for the police to find these places: in winter there's
hardly or no snow on the roof and the power company usually notices a
higher power drain than they can send bills for!
My daughters often warn me not to run all the systems in winter
because it might trigger something :-)
Bill Gunshannon
Nope. Wife pays the bill. As long as she doesn't complain, I don't
care.
> When I got my first VAX in 1988, a VAXstation 2000 with monitor, TK50
> but no disk expansion cabinet, it was switched on 24x7.
> Usually the annual meter readouts for gas, water and electricity are
> registered by phone (nowadays the internet of course).
I think they still read a lot of them by hand here. :-(
> But in 1989 we got a surprise visit from the mains power company. They
> checked whether the meter wasn't malfunctioning.
> My wife mentioned the computer and the mystery was solved.
They obviously noticed a difference in your usage. Our bill shows
a graph of long term usage so one can see these trends as well.
Due to the previously mentioned heater, ours goes up considerably
in winter. But the cost is averaged out over the whole year making
it even less likely that my systems would be visible.
> The extra
> cost was 0.35 NLG per day, affordable.
If I remember correctly, that would have been about $.17. I certainly
wouldn't worry about that.
> One VAX became a three node
> VMScluster which cost NLG 1 per day.
$.50 a day. $180.00 a year. I can pay (and have paid) that for one
day of skiing or a weekend of golf.
> After 1992 prices for mains power
> and additional charges went up so the systems got switched off when
> not in use. A regime which, I feel, reduces the MTBF.
Well, that probably depends on the ratio of time off to time on. Thermal
and atomic (or whatever the official term for it is) shock can cause very
sudden catastrophic failure.
bill
--
Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
bill...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
Bill Gunshannon
They do all the time. This country takes in more immigrants than
any other in the world. Of course, one reason for this is probably
that most people actually would rather live here than any other place
in the world. A noticable percentage of our students are foreign and
frequently from third-world nations. The vast majority of them do not
return home after graduation. I do not see us as unique.
Bob Koehler
> I would say that VMS is still used where:
> * they started with VMS back in the 1980's
> * the applications they use are still available for VMS
> * the systems are so important that the costs of the systems
> is not important or the cost and/or risk of migrating to
> another platform is high enough to kill any ambitious
> migration projects
I'd add:
* the application is custom, so the platform features are more
important than application availability from vendors
Art Wiens
Well you have the perfect cover for your grow-op then, you're known to the power company to have large hydro usage.
"Oh no officer, it's just my VMS cluster making the meter spin like a top! And never mind that odour, my kids keep skunks as pets." :-')
Cheers,
Art
--
"Cheer up ... things could get worse"
So he did ... and they did!
Bill Gunshannon
bill...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
> In article <67e44e1a-0e59-4aa1...@g4g2000yqa.googlegroups.com>,
> H Vlems <hvl...@freenet.de> writes:
>>
>> Any idea what you pay per kWh Bill?
>
> Nope. Wife pays the bill. As long as she doesn't complain, I don't
> care.
>
I went online and looked it up. Seems it is somewhere around $.09/KWH
New York City is the highest at around $.16.
Also.......
> The average dutch household uses between 2000 and 3500 kWh annually
According to the INTERNET (and we all know it is never wrong) the
average US home uses 18,000/yr.
I guerss that explains why I don't see the power consumed by one of my
PDP-11's as significant. :-)
VAXman-
>In article <7vce8l...@mid.individual.net>,
> bill...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>> H Vlems <hvl...@freenet.de> writes:
>>>
>>> Any idea what you pay per kWh Bill?
>>
>> Nope. Wife pays the bill. As long as she doesn't complain, I don't
>> care.
>>
>
>New York City is the highest at around $.16.
>
>Also.......
>
>> The average dutch household uses between 2000 and 3500 kWh annually
>
>According to the INTERNET (and we all know it is never wrong) the
>average US home uses 18,000/yr.
I wonder what the per-capita average would be if the energy used to pump
that .NL basin dry was figured in. Much of that energy is wind generated.
Somewhere I have photos of long strings of power generating windmills from
along the .NL coast. Very impressive and it was very windy while standing
there to photograph them. In my travels in .NL, most every where I went I
found low-voltage or fluorescent illumination; although, it seems that the
ovens and cook tops were electric. That's never an efficient use of e's.
--
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG
http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
Yeah. You know, it occurs to me that the best way you hurt rich people is by
turning them into poor people. -- Billy Ray Valentine
Wilm Boerhout
> In article<7vcj3h...@mid.individual.net>, bill...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>> In article<7vce8l...@mid.individual.net>,
>> bill...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>>> In article<67e44e1a-0e59-4aa1...@g4g2000yqa.googlegroups.com>,
>>> H Vlems<hvl...@freenet.de> writes:
>>>>
>>>> Any idea what you pay per kWh Bill?
>>>
>>> Nope. Wife pays the bill. As long as she doesn't complain, I don't
>>> care.
>>>
>>
>> I went online and looked it up. Seems it is somewhere around $.09/KWH
>> New York City is the highest at around $.16.
>>
>> Also.......
>>
>>> The average dutch household uses between 2000 and 3500 kWh annually
>>
>> According to the INTERNET (and we all know it is never wrong) the
>> average US home uses 18,000/yr.
>
> I wonder what the per-capita average would be if the energy used to pump
> that .NL basin dry was figured in. Much of that energy is wind generated.
> Somewhere I have photos of long strings of power generating windmills from
> along the .NL coast. Very impressive and it was very windy while standing
> there to photograph them. In my travels in .NL, most every where I went I
> found low-voltage or fluorescent illumination; although, it seems that the
> ovens and cook tops were electric. That's never an efficient use of e's.
Although wind energy (and other non-fossile sources) constitute a small
fraction of our energy supply, my (average) household, with heating
based on (local) natural gas, cooking electric (well, induction), and a
growing number of low-energy lighting, I pay just EUR3.500 per year for
gas+electricity. Today that's $4.500. No airco though... I wonder where
the big difference comes from?
Wilm (from .NL)
GreyCloud
Then that seems to still be true. This was the main item in selecting
VMS back in the 80s, in that their software development products were
excellent as were the documentation. We got more document updates than
we did software updates, which in our case was very important and also
very helpful. Other systems were considered and looked into, but found
that the software development tools to be lacking in many areas and very
poor documentation.
Arne Vajhøj
Most platform features are just a matter of the cost of
recoding to use an alternative.
Arne
Arne Vajhøj
> In article<4b90856e$0$274$1472...@news.sunsite.dk>,
> Arne Vajh�j<ar...@vajhoej.dk> writes:
>> On 04-03-2010 17:00, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>> In article<hmosjf$9l$1...@news.albasani.net>,
>>> Jan-Erik Soderholm<jan-erik....@telia.com> writes:
>>>> On 2010-03-04 16:28, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>>>> Yeah, you could go Amish and then you wouldn't have any concern at all
>>>>> about power consumption by an Itanium server. :-) There is a reason
>>>>> I don't live in a third-world country.
>>>>
>>>> Of course. And the main reason is probably the fact that you
>>>> wasn't *born* there, not ? I'd bet that it's nothing that
>>>> you have selected or choosen.
>>>
>>> Au contraire. I have had the "priveledge" of visiting some third-world
>>> countries. I live and work with people who think vacationing there is
>>> great. And love third-world cuisine on their dinner table. I have
>>> had numerous opportunities to "choose" third-world culture. I choose
>>> not to.
>>
>> Note that it is asymmetric.
>>
>> A US citizen could chose to live in Congo.
>>
>> A Congo citizen could not chose to live in US.
>
> They do all the time.
Not legally.
There are several restrictions on visas and green cards.
> This country takes in more immigrants than
> any other in the world.
I know, but that does not imply that it is possible for
everyone that want to.
> Of course, one reason for this is probably
> that most people actually would rather live here than any other place
> in the world.
It is a pretty good assumption that a country where the border patrol
tries to keep people out is a better country to live in than a
country where the border patrol tries to keep people in.
Arne
Bob Koehler
>
> Most platform features are just a matter of the cost of
> recoding to use an alternative.
How do I recode my applicagtion to avoid the security holes in the
OS, it's tendancy to go out to lunch, or it's kernel design which
allows it to do something else when I need hard real-time response?
Just because popular OS have gotten better at not going out to lunch
these days, doesn't mean the meet my needs.
BR...@rabbit.turquoisewitch.com
[...]
>
>According to the INTERNET (and we all know it is never wrong) the
>average US home uses 18,000/yr.
>
I just got an "attaboy" from my electricity vendor; my ~10,000/yr. is less than
my neighbors usage.
$.09 per KWH charge.
I leave my PWS433au powered up 24X7.
[...]
H Vlems
At 7 eurocents per kWh I'd leave my Alpha's powered on 24x7 too!
Besides paying €0.22 /kWh there are also charges for the environment,
rent of equipment etc.
Which is why my mains power bill runs over €2000 anually :-(
Hans
Bill Gunshannon
Like pretty much every other country in the world.
The US allows more immigrants in than any other country in the world.
Do you know how many Haitians have been brought to this country (mostly
children) that will never set foot in Haiti again?
>
> > This country takes in more immigrants than
> > any other in the world.
>
> I know, but that does not imply that it is possible for
> everyone that want to.
If everyone who wanted to came to the US, we would be standing shoulder
to shoulder from the Atlantic to the Pacific. As much as many of these
countries talk about hating America and Americans, an awful lot of them
sure want to be here.
>
> > Of course, one reason for this is probably
> > that most people actually would rather live here than any other place
> > in the world.
>
> It is a pretty good assumption that a country where the border patrol
> tries to keep people out is a better country to live in than a
> country where the border patrol tries to keep people in.
>
bill
Bill Gunshannon
koe...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:
> In article <4b91545d$0$274$1472...@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= <ar...@vajhoej.dk> writes:
>>
>> Most platform features are just a matter of the cost of
>> recoding to use an alternative.
>
> How do I recode my applicagtion to avoid the security holes in the
> OS, it's tendancy to go out to lunch, or it's kernel design which
> allows it to do something else when I need hard real-time response?
You run a hard, real-time OS that doesn't have those problems. Or do you
think somehow that VMS is the only one.
>
> Just because popular OS have gotten better at not going out to lunch
> these days, doesn't mean the meet my needs.
There are OSes designed to do real-time. Some who's ancestry pre-dates
even VMS.
You really need to get out more.
Phillip Helbig---undress to reply
(Phillip Helbig---undress to reply) writes:
> I'll have to measure the actual consumption, as opposed to what is
> printed on the back panels. Presumably the former will be less, but on
> the other hand the total of all the wattages on the back panels is more
> than a kilowatt.
Since all the computer stuff is on one 16-amp fuse, with 220 V (standard
household voltage in Europe---I DO have a three-phase connector, though
not in use) I'm limited to about two-and-one-half kW, or about 375 per
month.
Phillip Helbig---undress to reply
Gunshannon) writes:
> And as long as my
> wife doesn't complain, I think the cost is greatly outweighed by the
> pleasure (and stress relief) I get playing with them.
That statement could apply to anything or anybody. :-)
Phillip Helbig---undress to reply
<mi...@cumulus.com> writes:
> Arne Vajh�j wrote:
> > On 02-03-2010 19:34, GreyCloud wrote:
> >> It has been ages since I last worked in a VMS shop.
> >> I am now curious as to what systems are available and whether HP
> >> still sells workstations that are Itanium based.
> >
> > Check:
> > http://h20341.www2.hp.com/integrity/us/en/integrity-servers.html
> >
> > I believe that they do not offer a special workstation, but
> > a low end server with a monitor is really a workstation.
> >
> So can I assume that DecWindows is no longer provided for the latest
> OpenVMS?
Of course it is.
Phillip Helbig---undress to reply
<mi...@cumulus.com> writes:
> I suppose I should have also ask as to what kind of industries still use
> OpenVMS. I know mission critical needs pretty much demand OpenVMS, but
> not sure what is going on in the IT world since I left ages ago.
Stock exchanges, baggage-routing systems at airports, medical databases,
chip production (does Intel still run VMS?), IKEA (now on Itanium),
banks, national lotteries. These are the types of operations which
often appear in job ads seeking folks with VMS experience. Others you
might not hear about.
Richard B. Gilbert
>> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:
>>> YES. One of the reasons I've invested in CFL. Now, if they'd only have
>>> the longevity of the old incandescents. I'm replacing them with good ol'
>>> incandescents when they go until the "technology" is perfected. Maybe I
>>> should try the LED lamps.
>
>> Yeah, I tried CFL's, too. Once I use up what I have left I will
>> probably stop. They provide much less light (requiring that one
>> put in higher wattage bulbs to get equivalent illumination). They
>> were supposed to last years, I have already had to replace a number
>> of them. Many of them from one particular country if manufacture
>> have been listed as the cause of many house fires. (and another
>> potential problem with living in a house as old as mine is the
>> dryness of the wood. I expect this house would burn to the found-
>> ation befiore the fire company ever got here.) And probably the
>> biggest one that I am positive the users of CFL's are not aware of!!
>> Have you ever dropped a bulb while changing them and had it break?
>> You realize if you do that with a CFL you are actually supposed to
>> evacuate the area and have a haxMat team come in to clean it up.
>> At least, that's the legal requirement!!
>
> I've use CFL's since before they were really compact (before they invented
> the idea of make them curly) Some brands/places of manufacture don't have
> the promised long life these days. I still have one or two of my old U
> shaped ones in my basement, 20+ years old. I might have more in operation
> but I've broken two because they hang low and I hit and broke them.
>
> I really dislike how they market them by assuming you also want to
> decrease the light output in addition to saving power by going with CFLs
> in the first place. I just compensate by reversing the step when I buy
> them (if I want to replace a 75 watt incandescent, I buy the CFL that
> claims to replace the next size up, a 100 watt bulb, or I check the
> actual lumens)
>
> The mercury scare if you break them is foolishness. First, there's
> mercury in *all* fluorescents, including the long tubes. They'll have
> more, in fact. Second, elemental mercury isn't what's harmful. It's
> mercury compounds that are nasty.
The trouble with that argument is that "elemental" mercury can and does
form various compounds with, say, oxygen or chlorine. My chemistry has
been largely unused since I got out of school but I believe I'm correct
in this.
It is not good to breathe the vapor or to swallow the liquid form.
Compounds containing mercury may also cause problems. A couple of years
ago there was an incident in the NJ/Eastern PA area in which a school
was built on property that was formerly used to manufacture mercury
thermometers! There was, course, considerable mercury present and the
children were found to have higher than normal amounts of mercury in
their bodies. The resulting lawsuits will probably be going on for years!
Richard B. Gilbert
Why not? I realize that most citizens of the Congo could not afford a
ticket to get to the U.S. There was nothing to stop any citizen who
could afford the trip and support himself when he got here.
Those of us who are native born have ancestors who were born and lived
on the other side of the Atlantic and, later, ancestors who lived on the
other side of the Pacific. We are all, including the American Indians,
immigrants. Some of our ancestors arrived early and some late but, in
the long run we are ALL immigrants.
Phillip Helbig---undress to reply
Gilbert" <rgilb...@comcast.net> writes:
> >> Au contraire. I have had the "priveledge" of visiting some third-world
> >> countries. I live and work with people who think vacationing there is
> >> great. And love third-world cuisine on their dinner table. I have
> >> had numerous opportunities to "choose" third-world culture. I choose
> >> not to.
> >
> > Note that it is asymmetric.
> >
> > A US citizen could chose to live in Congo.
> >
> > A Congo citizen could not chose to live in US.
Although there is some asymmetry, the vast majority of people a) stay in
the country where they were born and b) want to do so. Most of those
who leave would prefer to stay if conditions were better, i.e. if there
were a minimum standard---even if conditions were much better elsewhere.
Of course, there is a sizeable minority of people who don't stay in the
country in which there were born, and of those, a sizeable minority who
prefer living elsewhere.
Wilm Boerhout
My grandparents expected their children to marry someone in the same
village, and stay there. They did, almost.
My parents saw one of their three children leave the country to marry
and live in the USA. (It wasn't me)
Of my own children, well, I expect them to stay on this planet, but of
the youngest, I'm not sure.
Panta rhei.
/Wilm
BillPedersen
undress to reply) wrote:
>
> Stock exchanges, baggage-routing systems at airports, medical databases,
> chip production (does Intel still run VMS?), IKEA (now on Itanium),
> banks, national lotteries. These are the types of operations which
> often appear in job ads seeking folks with VMS experience. Others you
> might not hear about.
For an overview of the current state of systems as seen by John Egolf
of DEC/Compaq/HP OpenVMS Marketing you can check out a presentation
the gave Thursday and Friday touching on Version 8.4 as part of a
series of on-line seminars sponsored by Connect Worldwide and the
OpenVMS SIG:
http://storage.synchost.com/eanderson/2010/OpenVMS%20Update%20for%20Connect%20%28presentation%29.pdf
Estimates of number of OpenVMS servers still in production operation.
Percentages in various industries. As well as new product features.
Bill.
Arne Vajhøj
> My grandparents expected their children to marry someone in the same
> village, and stay there. They did, almost.
>
> My parents saw one of their three children leave the country to marry
> and live in the USA. (It wasn't me)
>
> Of my own children, well, I expect them to stay on this planet, but of
> the youngest, I'm not sure.
The world has become smaller.
Arne
Arne Vajhøj
The new product features are good info.
The usage stuff is bullshit.
Arne
JF Mezei
> http://storage.synchost.com/eanderson/2010/OpenVMS%20Update%20for%20Connect%20%28presentation%29.pdf
>
> Estimates of number of OpenVMS servers still in production operation.
> Percentages in various industries. As well as new product features.
Interesting that the 400k number is once again being used. Couple years
ago, they stopped using it and used 300k instead.
In the pie chart showing the industries it is in, it still shows
healthcare as a large proportion of the VMS business. The manufacturing
sector uses Intel as a reference for chip design and manufacturing. (I
guess if they have just one system left in there, they can still claim it).
Interesting that the support roadmap doesn't include VAX. Yet, VAX
support still represents a big chunk of total revenues from what I was
told. It is a given that by now, if VAX support hasn't been pulled, it
will continue for quite some time.
Pages 28 and 29 contain the list of packages/software that are included
with each type of licencing (Fondation EOE, MCOE) and the proposed new
licencing system.
Here is an interesting one:
"Enhanced memcmp and strcmp API�s on Integrity servers
Reduces the compute time of memcmp and strcmp routines on Integrity
server platform (50-85% improvement)"
One rarely sees such specific improvements in such presentations. I take
it this has to do with finding a way around IA64's bad performance for
byte by byte processing (alignment faults).
This should please Sylvain Tremblay:
"Backup enhancements (Alpha and Integrity)
Compression support on disk allows BACKUP to generate compressed save-sets"
They are *finally* removing the code in the SMTP Receiver which split
long header lines. (that was a REAL pain).
DELETE/TREE : Is this what I think it is ? If so, that would be neat.
16 parameters for command procedures. Not sure how this will be useful
since VAX is still stuck at 8.
And this is surprising:
BootCamp
The Connect OpenVMS Bootcamp will be in Nashua
NH, first half of Sept 2010. All information is on the
Connect website. (www.connect-community.org)
And most importantly:
Included in the:
##
Being Reviewed for V.next
Note: Data is raw / unfiltered � these are being reviewed and are not a
commitment to implement
##
Is the mention of "Port to X86". In the past, I had been told that any
such discussion had been strictly verbotten with severe punishement if
it was mentioned.
BillPedersen
>
> DELETE/TREE : Is this what I think it is ? If so, that would be neat.
>
Yes, it will delete a directory tree and contents.
> 16 parameters for command procedures. Not sure how this will be useful
> since VAX is still stuck at 8.
>
> And this is surprising:
> BootCamp
> The Connect OpenVMS Bootcamp will be in Nashua
> NH, first half of Sept 2010. All information is on the
> Connect website. (www.connect-community.org)
>
> And most importantly:
>
> Included in the:
> ##
> Being Reviewed for V.next
> Note: Data is raw / unfiltered these are being reviewed and are not a
> commitment to implement
> ##
>
> Is the mention of "Port to X86". In the past, I had been told that any
> such discussion had been strictly verbotten with severe punishement if
> it was mentioned.
You might want to listen to the presentation. It is available at:
Yes, I know a long URL... The entire offering is over three hours.
The OpenVMS 8.4 session was about 90 minutes.
Bill.
BillPedersen
> Yes, I know a long URL... The entire offering is over three hours.
> The OpenVMS 8.4 session was about 90 minutes.
>
> Bill.
Well, I messed one up. Here is the URL:
Bill.
Jan-Erik Soderholm
>> 16 parameters for command procedures. Not sure how this will be useful
>> since VAX is still stuck at 8.
Now, why in earth would 16 params for COM files not be usefull
becuse of something called "VAX" ? What has VAX to do with
anything today ?
Or did the quote missed something ?
JF Mezei
> Now, why in earth would 16 params for COM files not be usefull
> becuse of something called "VAX" ? What has VAX to do with
> anything today ?
There are still many mixed acrchitecture shops. So lack of DCL
improvements for VAX restricts use of many new DCL features for some
customers. If you are VAX free, then yeah, these improvements can be
used by you.
Jan-Erik Soderholm
> Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:
>
>> Now, why in earth would 16 params for COM files not be usefull
>> becuse of something called "VAX" ? What has VAX to do with
>> anything today ?
>
> There are still many mixed acrchitecture shops. So lack of DCL
> improvements for VAX restricts use of many new DCL features for some
> customers.
Not at all. It's just as dumb as saying that you should not use
*any* pre-V8.x features just becuse you happes to have a VAX
somewhere that can't use them. Get real...
> If you are VAX free, then yeah, these improvements can be
> used by you.
Can you not see how silly that sounds ?
Richard B. Gilbert
No, the world is the same size it was last year and the year before. . . .
What has changed is our view of it.
Richard B. Gilbert
> On Mar 7, 1:03 pm, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spam...@vaxination.ca> wrote:
>> DELETE/TREE : Is this what I think it is ? If so, that would be neat.
>>
>
> Yes, it will delete a directory tree and contents.
>
>> 16 parameters for command procedures. Not sure how this will be useful
>> since VAX is still stuck at 8.
>>
I can't recall EVER needing more than eight parameters for a command
procedure. DCL was never intended for application programming although
it is sometimes so used.
Marc Van Dyck
And if you ever needed more than eight, a carefully chosen character
as separator and F$ELEMENT will give you as many as you want...
--
Marc Van Dyck
Bob Koehler
>
> No, the world is the same size it was last year and the year before. . . .
No according to those who've intently studied the affect of the
Chilean earthquake. But don't expect the change to alter your ETA
next time you fly somewhere.
Bob Koehler
>
> Here is an interesting one:
> Reduces the compute time of memcmp and strcmp routines on Integrity
> server platform (50-85% improvement)"
It's trivial to write a byte-by-byte compare in an HLL that doens't
run too fast when the memory subsystem doesn't do byte access. It's
straightforward to write a routine that takes adavantage of accessing
as many longwords or quadwords as possible in a given block.
>
> DELETE/TREE : Is this what I think it is ? If so, that would be neat.
>
> 16 parameters for command procedures. Not sure how this will be useful
> since VAX is still stuck at 8.
>
...
> ##
> Being Reviewed for V.next
> Note: Data is raw / unfiltered � these are being reviewed and are not a
> commitment to implement
> ##
>
> Is the mention of "Port to X86". In the past, I had been told that any
> such discussion had been strictly verbotten with severe punishement if
> it was mentioned.
Oh, this IS good stuff.
Bob Koehler
>
> Now, why in earth would 16 params for COM files not be usefull
> becuse of something called "VAX" ? What has VAX to do with
> anything today ?
The same reason I don't use features of Fortran 95, the VAXen are
still running and it won't work there.
H Vlems
undress to reply) wrote:
> In article <hmoe41$v9...@online.de>, hel...@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de
On the back panel you'll find maximum power ratings for the power
supply.
The actual current drawn by the system depends on the installed
components.
An AlphaServer 1200 may have a single cpu, two memory boards, no
additional adapters and just one disk.
The maximum configuration supports 7 disks, a second cd-rom or a DAT
drive, two cpu's and all 16 memory slots occupied and all its pci
slots in use.
The values on the back panel don't change but its power rating will!
H Vlems
wrote:
> Michael Moroney wrote:
> > billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>
> >> In article <00A99F07.2622E...@sendspamhere.org>,
>
> - Show quoted text -
That's what mercury does, like lead it ends up in fat layers in your
body. Since many mercury compounds have low solubility products in
water they hardly get flushed from the body. Mercury comes in two
oxidation states, +1 and +2 and compounds of the latter dissolve
somewhat better in water than the first. Mercury itself is not a great
poison, it was once thought to cure syphilis, but its compunds are.
HgCl2 and Hg(NO3)2 are poisons.
H Vlems
wrote:
Quite right. Though I feel that if you do need more than 8 parameters
then you'd better buy a compiler (or use BLISS)
John Wallace
See also "Mad as a hatter".
Arne Vajhøj
> In article<4b91545d$0$274$1472...@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?=<ar...@vajhoej.dk> writes:
>> Most platform features are just a matter of the cost of
>> recoding to use an alternative.
>
> How do I recode my applicagtion to avoid the security holes in the
> OS, it's tendancy to go out to lunch, or it's kernel design which
> allows it to do something else when I need hard real-time response?
>
> Just because popular OS have gotten better at not going out to lunch
> these days, doesn't mean the meet my needs.
If you have very strict security or real time requirements, then
VMS does not sound as what you need.
There are specialized OS's for that.
DEC even sold one for real time: VAXELN.
Arne
Arne Vajhøj
We know that VMS is on its way out of chip production.
We also know that VMS is hurt in healtcare (Cerner).
Arne
Arne Vajhøj
The validity of the argument depends on the fraction
of VMS systems still running on VAX or at least
having to be VAX compatible to avoid two different
versions.
If 75% is limited by VAX, then it is a real issue.
If 1% is limited by VAX, then it is bogus.
Given the fact that is about 15 years since the
last VAX came out then I would expect the fraction
to be below 5%.
But I don't know how many old systems being
run out there.
We could make a quick poll: how many have still
VAX'es in production?
Arne
Arne Vajhøj
> In article<4b9155cd$0$274$1472...@news.sunsite.dk>,
> Arne Vajh�j<ar...@vajhoej.dk> writes:
>> On 05-03-2010 08:17, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>> In article<4b90856e$0$274$1472...@news.sunsite.dk>,>>>>> In article<hmosjf$9l$1...@news.albasani.net>,
>>>>> Jan-Erik Soderholm<jan-erik....@telia.com> writes:
>>>>>> On 2010-03-04 16:28, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>>>>>> Yeah, you could go Amish and then you wouldn't have any concern at all
>>>>>>> about power consumption by an Itanium server. :-) There is a reason
>>>>>>> I don't live in a third-world country.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Of course. And the main reason is probably the fact that you
>>>>>> wasn't *born* there, not ? I'd bet that it's nothing that
>>>>>> you have selected or choosen.
>>>>>
>>>>> countries. I live and work with people who think vacationing there is
>>>>> great. And love third-world cuisine on their dinner table. I have
>>>>> had numerous opportunities to "choose" third-world culture. I choose
>>>>> not to.
>>>>
>>>> Note that it is asymmetric.
>>>>
>>>> A US citizen could chose to live in Congo.
>>>>
>>>> A Congo citizen could not chose to live in US.
>>>
>>
>> Not legally.
>>
>> There are several restrictions on visas and green cards.
>
> Like pretty much every other country in the world.
Like pretty much every other rich country in the world.
Poor countries don't need that. It regulates itself.
>>> This country takes in more immigrants than
>>> any other in the world.
>>
>> I know, but that does not imply that it is possible for
>> everyone that want to.
>
> If everyone who wanted to came to the US, we would be standing shoulder
> to shoulder from the Atlantic to the Pacific. As much as many of these
> countries talk about hating America and Americans, an awful lot of them
> sure want to be here.
I am not claiming that it could be otherwise - I am just claiming that
it is how it is.
Arne
Arne Vajhøj
> Arne Vajh�j wrote:
>> On 04-03-2010 17:00, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>> In article<hmosjf$9l$1...@news.albasani.net>,
>>> Jan-Erik Soderholm<jan-erik....@telia.com> writes:
>>>> On 2010-03-04 16:28, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>>>> Yeah, you could go Amish and then you wouldn't have any concern at all
>>>>> about power consumption by an Itanium server. :-) There is a reason
>>>>> I don't live in a third-world country.
>>>>
>>>> Of course. And the main reason is probably the fact that you
>>>> wasn't *born* there, not ? I'd bet that it's nothing that
>>>> you have selected or choosen.
>>>
>>> Au contraire. I have had the "priveledge" of visiting some third-world
>>> countries. I live and work with people who think vacationing there is
>>> great. And love third-world cuisine on their dinner table. I have
>>> had numerous opportunities to "choose" third-world culture. I choose
>>> not to.
>>
>> Note that it is asymmetric.
>>
>> A US citizen could chose to live in Congo.
>>
>> A Congo citizen could not chose to live in US.
>
> ticket to get to the U.S. There was nothing to stop any citizen who
> could afford the trip and support himself when he got here.
The visa rules does not allow it.
You need H1B or another work visa to work.
But even staying as a tourist is time limited. With a green visa
waiver (which west europeans can get in with) you can only stay
3 months. To get a tourist visa (which is required for people
from poor countries) you need to specify when you will return
and provide some proof that you indeed will return to the
US embassy to get the visa.
That is legal. Then there are some millions that chose
the easier way.
Arne
Arne Vajhøj
> Arne Vajh�j wrote:
>> On 07-03-2010 04:43, Wilm Boerhout wrote:
>>> My grandparents expected their children to marry someone in the same
>>> village, and stay there. They did, almost.
>>>
>>> My parents saw one of their three children leave the country to marry
>>> and live in the USA. (It wasn't me)
>>>
>>> Of my own children, well, I expect them to stay on this planet, but of
>>> the youngest, I'm not sure.
>>
>> The world has become smaller.
>
>
> What has changed is our view of it.
It has not become smaller in meters, but ...
Arne
Richard B. Gilbert
Call it smaller in terms of travel time. To sail here in the Mayflower
took weeks. To fly from Heathrow (London) to Boston takes seven or
eight hours. The distance hasn't changed but the technology has!
Michael Kraemer
<rgilb...@comcast.net> writes:
> Call it smaller in terms of travel time. To sail here in the Mayflower
> took weeks. To fly from Heathrow (London) to Boston takes seven or
> eight hours. The distance hasn't changed
Of course it has. Due to the continental drift,
the gap has widened by several meters.
(There's also a time gap, since over there they
still measure in feets and inches)
> but the technology has!
Richard B. Gilbert
Where did you find an accurate measure of what the distance was when the
Mayflower sailed? I don't believe that the technology available at
that time was capable of making that measurement?
Michael Kraemer
Continents drift at a pretty constant rate over a few hundred years.
ISTR sth between 1 and 10cm per year for America vs Europe,
so one can extrapolate from today's precise measurements.