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Open VMS workstation
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Marc Van Dyck
May 18, 2013, 3:13:07 PM5/18/13
to
6 people in my team still use OpenVMS workstations. It used to
be Alpha XP900; those were barely silent enough to be used in
an office space. When we migrated to Itanium, we first used RX2600
boxes as prototypes, before we implemented our final solution with
integrity blades. After that, I recycled the RX2600 boxes into stations
to replace the Alphas. Unfortunately, the RXs are far too noisy for
an open office environment, so I asked our building service to build
a small closed place in a corner, where the 6 RX are stacked, and ran
long USB and VGA cables to connect them to video, keyboard and mouse
on the employee's desks.
The problem is, I need to reclaim the floor space to install new desks,
so the stations have to go elsewhere. Too far for long cables, so I'm
looking for an alternate solution, not too expensive.
Two possibilities :
- KVM equipment to channel the VGA and USB signals over a dedicated
twisted pair cable (one for each station).
- X terminals, if such a beast still exists.
Can anyone recommend a solution ? Full-functional three-button mouse
and OpenVMS keybord are absolutely essential, so I'm looking for
something already proven to work...
Many thanks in advance for your help,
--
Marc Van Dyck
be Alpha XP900; those were barely silent enough to be used in
an office space. When we migrated to Itanium, we first used RX2600
boxes as prototypes, before we implemented our final solution with
integrity blades. After that, I recycled the RX2600 boxes into stations
to replace the Alphas. Unfortunately, the RXs are far too noisy for
an open office environment, so I asked our building service to build
a small closed place in a corner, where the 6 RX are stacked, and ran
long USB and VGA cables to connect them to video, keyboard and mouse
on the employee's desks.
The problem is, I need to reclaim the floor space to install new desks,
so the stations have to go elsewhere. Too far for long cables, so I'm
looking for an alternate solution, not too expensive.
Two possibilities :
- KVM equipment to channel the VGA and USB signals over a dedicated
twisted pair cable (one for each station).
- X terminals, if such a beast still exists.
Can anyone recommend a solution ? Full-functional three-button mouse
and OpenVMS keybord are absolutely essential, so I'm looking for
something already proven to work...
Many thanks in advance for your help,
--
Marc Van Dyck
Bill Gunshannon
May 18, 2013, 3:35:36 PM5/18/13
to
In article <mn.94f97dd51a...@invalid.skynet.be>,
If X is good enough to meet your needs, an X-server on a PC is probably
the cheapest and easiest to implement. No VMS involved, but I am posting
this using Knews running on a server at the University from my home with
X tunneled thru SSH so there is no security concern. My X-server is Xming
which is free.
Oh, I just saw the "OpenVMS keybord" comment. Not sure if that would be
a sticking point or not. I have DEC Keyboard here somewhere that plugs
into a PC but, as I said, not much VMS left around here so I never tried
any special keyboard capabilities. At least bring free I suppose you
could try it out. :-)
Just one suggestion.
bill
--
Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
bill...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton |
Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
the cheapest and easiest to implement. No VMS involved, but I am posting
this using Knews running on a server at the University from my home with
X tunneled thru SSH so there is no security concern. My X-server is Xming
which is free.
Oh, I just saw the "OpenVMS keybord" comment. Not sure if that would be
a sticking point or not. I have DEC Keyboard here somewhere that plugs
into a PC but, as I said, not much VMS left around here so I never tried
any special keyboard capabilities. At least bring free I suppose you
could try it out. :-)
Just one suggestion.
bill
--
Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
bill...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton |
Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
chris
May 18, 2013, 4:22:50 PM5/18/13
to
video quality, if that's any help. Surplus Compaq 8 port kvm in the server
rack feeds a single monitor / kb / mouse.
Another thing you could try is vnc. The later versions are much faster than
of old and in fact, on a sun V240 with vnc server, pc running xp with vnc
viewer, was actually faster than the v240 h/w frame buffer. Same with
the viewer running on Linux.
There are quite a few different vnc's these days, but the version used here
is from:
http://www.realvnc.com
Download free, but support version with a small fee.
I would forget remote X. Unusably slow on all the h/w every tried here...
Regards,
Chris
BillPedersen
May 18, 2013, 4:25:58 PM5/18/13
to
I do agree they are not as quiet as one would like. I have a couple, in my small office without covers...
I saw that MG (a contributor here) had a "quiet fan" kit once which he was claiming for the 2600, it is a 2620 item but maybe he has experience as to whether it worked properly with the 2600.
Bill.
BillPedersen
May 18, 2013, 4:45:24 PM5/18/13
to
On Saturday, May 18, 2013 3:13:07 PM UTC-4, Marc Van Dyck wrote:
Bill.
Marc Van Dyck
May 18, 2013, 5:07:18 PM5/18/13
to
Bill Gunshannon formulated on samedi :
We all have reflection X running on our portable PCs. Good enough for
the occasional session from home, but not for a whole day session
debbuging DCL scripts.
--
Marc Van Dyck
the occasional session from home, but not for a whole day session
debbuging DCL scripts.
--
Marc Van Dyck
Marc Van Dyck
May 18, 2013, 5:08:37 PM5/18/13
to
chris presented the following explanation :
I konw it exists, never used it. Would this support OpenVMS-specific
keyboard and mouse ?
--
Marc Van Dyck
keyboard and mouse ?
--
Marc Van Dyck
Marc Van Dyck
May 18, 2013, 5:10:28 PM5/18/13
to
BillPedersen expressed precisely :
Had a demo done to me by HP a long time ago already. Still too noisy
in my opinion, and certainly would cause quite a lot of protests from
the other floor inhabitants.
--
Marc Van Dyck
in my opinion, and certainly would cause quite a lot of protests from
the other floor inhabitants.
--
Marc Van Dyck
Marc Van Dyck
May 18, 2013, 5:15:37 PM5/18/13
to
BillPedersen pretended :
Exactly what I'm looking at right now. We are good customers for them
already (I buy all my SAN fibres from them). But there are upteen
entries in their KVM catalog and it's difficult to identify the best
one. May be they have some kind of consukting service to help choose
the right one ? The'd probably be open to some kind of "try and buy"
deal too... I'll give them a call next week.
I see noone pursued on the X-terminal path... Is such kind of beast
totally extinct now ? NCD and the like... All dead ?
--
Marc Van Dyck
already (I buy all my SAN fibres from them). But there are upteen
entries in their KVM catalog and it's difficult to identify the best
one. May be they have some kind of consukting service to help choose
the right one ? The'd probably be open to some kind of "try and buy"
deal too... I'll give them a call next week.
I see noone pursued on the X-terminal path... Is such kind of beast
totally extinct now ? NCD and the like... All dead ?
--
Marc Van Dyck
BillPedersen
May 18, 2013, 5:32:13 PM5/18/13
to
chris
May 18, 2013, 5:44:25 PM5/18/13
to
On 05/18/13 21:08, Marc Van Dyck wrote:
>
> I konw it exists, never used it. Would this support OpenVMS-specific
> keyboard and mouse ?
>
I've seen it working on windows, tru64 (old version), solaris and aix.
>
> I konw it exists, never used it. Would this support OpenVMS-specific
> keyboard and mouse ?
>
Afaik, the protocol used is data transparent and there's an rfc, But of
course, if you want a dec keyboard layout, then you need an LK250 or the
modern equivalent on the pc, or whatever you run the client on. Would
assume that modern vms boxes use ps2 style kbd and mouse for direct
connection ?. Keyboareds are really only about layout and keycodes, so
vnc should be fine there.
May be usefull in the mix: there's a sysinternals (sysinternals.com /
microsoft) addon for windows called desktops, that gives you 4 virtual
desktops in windows, much like cde or gnome. Reliable and with very low
footprint. It would allow up to 4 vnc viewers / remote terminals or any
other ms app on a single screen...
Regards,
Chris
VAXman-
May 18, 2013, 6:31:08 PM5/18/13
to
--
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG
Well I speak to machines with the voice of humanity.
Michael Kraemer
May 18, 2013, 6:49:53 PM5/18/13
to
Marc Van Dyck schrieb:
>
> I see noone pursued on the X-terminal path... Is such kind of beast
> totally extinct now ? NCD and the like... All dead ?
>
Well, depends on the point of view of course
(just like VMS).
No new X-terminals are being made nowadays,
NCD is dead, and their follow-up, Thinpath,
seems to be out of stock of even used/refurbished
parts. This leaves the usual online flea market
as a last resort.
Personally I find the Explora's or Tekxp's still a viable option
in such cases. I even have some of them in production use.
They are "VMS-friendly", can be equipped with an LK-style
keyboard, and cause much less hassle than all the PC crap.
Their main limitation is their limited resolution / colour depth,
but if you can live with 1280x1024 in just 256 colours
they are still usable for the kind of work you have described.
>
> I see noone pursued on the X-terminal path... Is such kind of beast
> totally extinct now ? NCD and the like... All dead ?
>
(just like VMS).
No new X-terminals are being made nowadays,
NCD is dead, and their follow-up, Thinpath,
seems to be out of stock of even used/refurbished
parts. This leaves the usual online flea market
as a last resort.
Personally I find the Explora's or Tekxp's still a viable option
in such cases. I even have some of them in production use.
They are "VMS-friendly", can be equipped with an LK-style
keyboard, and cause much less hassle than all the PC crap.
Their main limitation is their limited resolution / colour depth,
but if you can live with 1280x1024 in just 256 colours
they are still usable for the kind of work you have described.
Bart Zorn
May 19, 2013, 2:43:13 AM5/19/13
to
LK style keyboards connected to a PC generally do not work completely. Keys that do not exist in Windows do not work. The only combination I have seen working was a LK461 keyboard, Windows XP and PowerTerm 525 V5.6. Somehow PowerTerm makes all the keys work.
Bart
Stephen Hoffman
May 19, 2013, 8:22:34 AM5/19/13
to
On 2013-05-18 19:13:07 +0000, Marc Van Dyck said:
> Unfortunately, the RXs are far too noisy for
> an open office environment, so I asked our building service to build
> a small closed place in a corner, where the 6 RX are stacked, and ran
> long USB and VGA cables to connect them to video, keyboard and mouse
> on the employee's desks.
>
> The problem is, I need to reclaim the floor space to install new desks,
> so the stations have to go elsewhere. Too far for long cables, so I'm
> looking for an alternate solution, not too expensive.
>
> Two possibilities :
A potential third possibility — depending on your particular definition
> Unfortunately, the RXs are far too noisy for
> an open office environment, so I asked our building service to build
> a small closed place in a corner, where the 6 RX are stacked, and ran
> long USB and VGA cables to connect them to video, keyboard and mouse
> on the employee's desks.
>
> The problem is, I need to reclaim the floor space to install new desks,
> so the stations have to go elsewhere. Too far for long cables, so I'm
> looking for an alternate solution, not too expensive.
>
> Two possibilities :
of "too expensive" — is an acoustical rack:
<http://www.xrackpro.com/Acoustic-Rack-s/18.htm>
<http://www.silentium.com/wp-content/uploads/Silentium001DataSheet_ARA-v4.pdf>
<http://quiet-rack.com/ranges.php>
etc...
Some variations on a theme, and some variations...
As mentioned up-thread, the HP Office Friendly Server (OFS) conversion
kits reduce the noise from the rx26x0 series. These aren't strictly
tied to the pedestal kits as the OFS conversions involve changes to the
hardware and embedded environmental controls; there are OFS rack-mount
configurations around. There's the obvious potential to combine OFS
with an acoustical rack. Some high-level OFS-related details
<http://labs.hoffmanlabs.com/node/9>
If you're willing to go officially unsupported and single-socket,
scrounged and processor-upgraded zx2000 boxes are usually quiet; the
80mm fans help with that goal. The dinky little fans used in the
thinner servers are inherently going to be loud, or louder, given how
fast they have to spin.
Or go directly to remoting, either via HP vKVM hardware or via any of
the various remote X stuff that was discussed up-thread.
If your applications aren't particularly hardware-intensive, convert to
OpenVMS Alpha and emulate that on quiet(er) hardware.
You might want to officially mention your need for quieter servers to
HP, too. Whether they have a solution — one that doesn't involve
what's already been discussed here and up-thread — I don't know.
--
Pure Personal Opinion | HoffmanLabs LLC
Bob Gezelter
May 19, 2013, 5:33:17 PM5/19/13
to
On Saturday, May 18, 2013 3:13:07 PM UTC-4, Marc Van Dyck wrote:
For many years, I have been using various KVMs for switching between different OpenVMS stations (more stations than monitors).
These devices are generally OS-agnostic within broad ranges (e.g., screen frequency/resolution, mouse, keyboard). So long as the keyboard is signal compatible with the environment presumed for the KVM, I have not seen a problem.
For non-switched applications, these are sometimes characterized as "console extenders". An extended distance KVM (or console extender) would likely do what you wish.
- Bob Gezelter, http://www.rlgsc.com
Ken Fairfield
May 20, 2013, 12:07:23 PM5/20/13
to
I'll just add that I had very good experience for many years using
Reflection-X (I think a version 9.x) on my PC with various LK46x
keyboards.
A few things to consider:
1) For the newer LK keyboards that are USB by default, you'll
need to use the provided USB<->PS/2 adapter to use all the LK
keys. In particular, as I recall, the USB software on the
Windows side simply discarded key presses from F13 through F20
so the X-server never saw them.
2) I'm using "Reflection for Unix and OpenVMS" v14.1.83. On
this version, the F13-F17 keys (including Help and Do) are
"dead". This makes it very difficult in TPU! ISTR there was
some feature/patch that was dropped midway through the v14
development. :-( One would want to test with Reflection X
before proceeding.
(I'll note that there is a small utility in Reflection that
will display its idea of which key was has been pressed. It
shows "extended" for those keys noted above, so the keystrokes
are getting to the application, they're just being discarded.
I think the more flexible key mapping available in X may
avoid this.)
3) The current release is called "Reflection Suite for X 2011"
with which I have no experience.
The upshot is, if I were in your position, I'd get at least
one copy of Reflection X and test it out. As I said earlier,
I used it as my main platform quite happily for many years.
-Ken
Reflection-X (I think a version 9.x) on my PC with various LK46x
keyboards.
A few things to consider:
1) For the newer LK keyboards that are USB by default, you'll
need to use the provided USB<->PS/2 adapter to use all the LK
keys. In particular, as I recall, the USB software on the
Windows side simply discarded key presses from F13 through F20
so the X-server never saw them.
2) I'm using "Reflection for Unix and OpenVMS" v14.1.83. On
this version, the F13-F17 keys (including Help and Do) are
"dead". This makes it very difficult in TPU! ISTR there was
some feature/patch that was dropped midway through the v14
development. :-( One would want to test with Reflection X
before proceeding.
(I'll note that there is a small utility in Reflection that
will display its idea of which key was has been pressed. It
shows "extended" for those keys noted above, so the keystrokes
are getting to the application, they're just being discarded.
I think the more flexible key mapping available in X may
avoid this.)
3) The current release is called "Reflection Suite for X 2011"
with which I have no experience.
The upshot is, if I were in your position, I'd get at least
one copy of Reflection X and test it out. As I said earlier,
I used it as my main platform quite happily for many years.
-Ken
Ken Fairfield
May 20, 2013, 12:15:16 PM5/20/13
to
A quick follow-up for clarification:
On Monday, May 20, 2013 9:07:23 AM UTC-7, Ken Fairfield wrote:
[...]
version of Reflection. I know longer use X (because
of changes on the servers which I use)...
-Ken
On Monday, May 20, 2013 9:07:23 AM UTC-7, Ken Fairfield wrote:
[...]
> 2) I'm using "Reflection for Unix and OpenVMS" v14.1.83.
I should have added, which is the text-terminal only
version of Reflection. I know longer use X (because
of changes on the servers which I use)...
-Ken
twhj...@gmail.com
May 24, 2013, 12:13:46 PM5/24/13
to
Greetings,
I have been using an old version of Reflections X (11.something) for many years. I am currently using it to present X sessions using XDMP between Tucson AZ and Madison WI over our corporate network. The only problems I have are when our network folks decide to muck about with the routers. I have an LK450-AA (USB) keyboard attached to my XP Pro workstation and all of the keys work as if I were actually on a VMS Workstation.
I also use a free version of Tera Term to connect via telnet or ssh. Tera Term has an LK keymap file which also works quite efficiently.
At first I had a problem connecting my LK USB keyboard to my laptop docking station at home the I got one of the Y cables that allows you to plug your keyboard and mouse into a single USB port and it started working perfectly.
I have also been playing with VMS on a zx2000 which requires a bit of mucking about inside the box so VMS does not try and connect to things that make it crash.
One last note… I just got a T5730 with embedded XP. I intend to use it to serve all of my different systems from a single desktop solution. The intention is to utilize it as both an X station (VMS & L/U***X) and for remote desktop connections to my Windoze servers.
Have Fun,
twhjr (Defender of the true faith)
I have been using an old version of Reflections X (11.something) for many years. I am currently using it to present X sessions using XDMP between Tucson AZ and Madison WI over our corporate network. The only problems I have are when our network folks decide to muck about with the routers. I have an LK450-AA (USB) keyboard attached to my XP Pro workstation and all of the keys work as if I were actually on a VMS Workstation.
I also use a free version of Tera Term to connect via telnet or ssh. Tera Term has an LK keymap file which also works quite efficiently.
At first I had a problem connecting my LK USB keyboard to my laptop docking station at home the I got one of the Y cables that allows you to plug your keyboard and mouse into a single USB port and it started working perfectly.
I have also been playing with VMS on a zx2000 which requires a bit of mucking about inside the box so VMS does not try and connect to things that make it crash.
One last note… I just got a T5730 with embedded XP. I intend to use it to serve all of my different systems from a single desktop solution. The intention is to utilize it as both an X station (VMS & L/U***X) and for remote desktop connections to my Windoze servers.
Have Fun,
twhjr (Defender of the true faith)
twhj...@gmail.com
May 24, 2013, 12:19:39 PM5/24/13
to
Greetings,
My keyboards are actually PS2, sorry of any confusion. That is why I needed the Y cable at home.
My keyboards are actually PS2, sorry of any confusion. That is why I needed the Y cable at home.
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