VMS on remote desktops
FredK
There has been talk (here) about how VMS is used in the wild by the
"developer" and small user community that c.o.v. represents fairly well.
And how we don't listen. I took it to heart.
For years, as needed (and not often) - I run DECwindows applications to a PC
X11 emulator. I telnet to VMS from my PC. But for the most part - I still
use DECwindows with local graphics for VMS development - after all I am a
VMS engineer :-).
PC emulators (or at least the one I use) seems to pretty much do what I want
when I need to. But something that I don't do - and many of you do - is to
use other X11 clients - in particular Linux desktops (and others - OS/X,
UNIX...) to do your work on VMS.
So, I have set myself a modest goal to look at providing a more seamless
integration of the remote desktop (Linux PC, thin client, etc) for the VMS
developer and user - with input from the community and without blindly
making my own assumptions about useage. From a "cookbook" to changes to the
DECwindows code, setup, or documentation, or more. We'll see where it goes.
So. If you have the desire, time and knowledge - on say what it took to
setup your Mac, or your Linux PC, or other X11 client. The more detailed
the better. Not just "I used xmodmap to hack the keycodes" - but the
specifics. What fonts were missing? Motif errors? How did you end up
solving the problems? What were the tradeoffs you had to live with? What
would have helped? What changes would help now and in the future?
Note that from my perspective Alpha and Integrity is my target as opposed to
VAX. The "new" desktop as opposed to the "old" (but I am interested in
understanding how many people don't use CDE and why). "Recent" versions of
DECwindows. Types of usage - exporting VMS applications or the VMS desktop.
Mixing native remote desktop applications (Linux/UNIX/etc) and VMS
applications. Keyboard issues. Font issues. Locale issues (and non-US
country issues). Setup issues. Security issues. Even testing issues :-)
I have lots of information and ideas of my own... but here's your chance.
All I do ask is that it doesn't become an excuse for bashing and long
standing rants. Nor am I suggesting anything leading to some new focus on a
VMS desktop or graphics... Nor should it be taken the other way - every
system we ship today has integrated 2D graphics - which are not going away.
This is specific to integration with remote desktops.
VAXman-
>
>There has been talk (here) about how VMS is used in the wild by the
>"developer" and small user community that c.o.v. represents fairly well.
>And how we don't listen. I took it to heart.
>
>For years, as needed (and not often) - I run DECwindows applications to a PC
>X11 emulator. I telnet to VMS from my PC. But for the most part - I still
>use DECwindows with local graphics for VMS development - after all I am a
>VMS engineer :-).
>
>PC emulators (or at least the one I use) seems to pretty much do what I want
>when I need to. But something that I don't do - and many of you do - is to
>use other X11 clients - in particular Linux desktops (and others - OS/X,
>UNIX...) to do your work on VMS.
>
>So, I have set myself a modest goal to look at providing a more seamless
>integration of the remote desktop (Linux PC, thin client, etc) for the VMS
>developer and user - with input from the community and without blindly
>making my own assumptions about useage. From a "cookbook" to changes to the
>DECwindows code, setup, or documentation, or more. We'll see where it goes.
>
>So. If you have the desire, time and knowledge - on say what it took to
>setup your Mac, or your Linux PC, or other X11 client. The more detailed
>the better. Not just "I used xmodmap to hack the keycodes" - but the
>specifics. What fonts were missing? Motif errors? How did you end up
>solving the problems? What were the tradeoffs you had to live with? What
>would have helped? What changes would help now and in the future?
I use mosy my Linux laptop and my Mac. I've done plenty with 'xmodmap' for
the keycode hacks. I've worked around most of the problems using the font
server. I access the VMS system(s) with 'ssh -X' but I've also toyed with
using 'xnest'.
As for fonts, the double-high/double-wide terminal fonts always cause issue
within 'xterm'. I export $CREATE/TERMINAL for doing debugging and, without
the font server, some of the line drawing stuff and, I believe, the reverse
video use in the character-cell debugger cause issue. I don't really use
any of the other GUI toys that came with CDE. A functional terminal is all
I ask for -- and which I have now with the font server.
>I have lots of information and ideas of my own... but here's your chance.
>All I do ask is that it doesn't become an excuse for bashing and long
>standing rants. Nor am I suggesting anything leading to some new focus on a
>VMS desktop or graphics... Nor should it be taken the other way - every
>system we ship today has integrated 2D graphics - which are not going away.
>This is specific to integration with remote desktops.
I'd like to see 4D graphics! :)
--
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG
All your spirit rack abuses, come to haunt you back by day.
All your Byzantine excuses, given time, given you away.
FredK
<VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote in message
news:00AA5D7F...@SendSpamHere.ORG...
> In article <ian2st$876$1...@usenet01.boi.hp.com>, "FredK"
> <fred....@dec.com> writes:
>
> I use mosy my Linux laptop and my Mac. I've done plenty with 'xmodmap'
> for
> the keycode hacks. I've worked around most of the problems using the font
> server. I access the VMS system(s) with 'ssh -X' but I've also toyed with
> using 'xnest'.
>
> As for fonts, the double-high/double-wide terminal fonts always cause
> issue
> within 'xterm'. I export $CREATE/TERMINAL for doing debugging and,
> without
> the font server, some of the line drawing stuff and, I believe, the
> reverse
> video use in the character-cell debugger cause issue. I don't really use
> any of the other GUI toys that came with CDE. A functional terminal is
> all
> I ask for -- and which I have now with the font server.
>
Thanks. I suspect a ot of VMS people (like UNIX folks) are still mostly
command line types. Care to share your xmodmap tricks? Do you need to
switch back and forth between settings to use VMS-style vs UNIX/Mac style
input?
JF Mezei
> Thanks. I suspect a ot of VMS people (like UNIX folks) are still mostly
> command line types. Care to share your xmodmap tricks? Do you need to
> switch back and forth between settings to use VMS-style vs UNIX/Mac style
> input?
If I read your initial post correctly, you are seeking input from people
using a VMS X terminal, and how they are setting it up to receive
connections form remote X clients running Mac, Linux etc.
If so, this does not apply to me. My remaining 2 VMS hosts are headless,
and target any X displays to my Mac instead of the other way around.
with an xset to to alpha for font serving, the VAX is able to create a
decterm on my Mac and display all fancy character attributes (including
double height/double width).
I have to review my xmodmap now because I had to switch to a wireless
mouse which only has 2 buttons. (Apples wired mouse had 4 buttons nd was
using the 4th button as "paste" within X.
I use RSH on the Mac to run a command precude on the VMS boxes to
CREATE/TERM/DETACHED/NOLOGGED on the Mac. (the VMS boxes create an
executive WSA device that is persistent and can be reused for those).
I don't run any VMS session manager. DECterm gets me command line, and I
can invoke GUI apps from command line if needed.
smithfarm
> integration of the remote desktop (Linux PC, thin client, etc) for the VMS
> developer and user - with input from the community and without blindly
> making my own assumptions about useage. From a "cookbook" to changes to the
> DECwindows code, setup, or documentation, or more. We'll see where it goes.
I tried, without much success, to get a remote VMS desktop to work on my
Linux box. The principal problem I ran into was that pesky algorithm
(Nagle?) that causes the system to delay sending keyboard and mouse
input. I couldn't find any way to turn it off.
This was with OpenVMS VAX v7.3, however, and I understand that you're
not going to focus on VAX for now. That's understandable. Now I have an
RX2600 and an emulated Alpha, so I'll be able to test things and
hopefully provide other input to the project.
That said, however, I think a lot of people wet their feet in VMS using
the SimH emulator, which only does VAX. There, they run into a bunch of
useability issues and, possibly, give up. It might be good to at least
document these issues and present ideas for workarounds (such as using
FreeAXP and OpenVMS Alpha v8.3 instead of SimH, assuming that helps).
I would be willing to try to write some of the documentation.
Nathan
H Vlems
I run Reflection X on a Windows XP system and use XDMCP to select the
desired target host.
Occasionally I telnet to the remote host and use CREATE/TERM/PERM
(having Reflection X running as the X server on the pc).
Annoying things:
- double width /double height lines are displayed as two identical
lines
- keys on the numeric keyboard are improperly mapped
- Connections with VAX DECwindows produce a font not found error (I
know, out of scope)
Hans
hb
> For years, as needed (and not often) - I run DECwindows applications to a PC
> X11 emulator. I telnet to VMS from my PC. But for the most part - I still
> use DECwindows with local graphics for VMS development - after all I am a
> VMS engineer :-).
For years, I did all my work in a couple of DECterms on a DPW600au
running VMS with DECwindows (CDE desktop) on a low-end graphics
adapter. For all the fancy stuff I used Mozilla on that workstation:
mails and web based access to MS applications or files. In case that
didn't work - for example for virtual classrooms - I ran Linux on a
notebook with the display redirected to the X11 server on the
workstation so that I still had a single keyboard/mouse/monitor work
environment.
When I worked from home I used Linux (Debian/Lenny) and a company
provided VPN to telnet to the VMS workstation or other VMS systems.
Almost always I just needed a terminal, occasionally I started an
application with a GUI, but I never ran a remote desktop.
I used XTerm(232) with
xterm*rightScrollBar: True
xterm.VT100.geometry: 80x36
xterm.VT100.c132: True
xterm.VT100.cursorBlink: True
xterm.VT100.scrollBar: True
Using the middle mouse button for scrolling was different, but having
the scroll bar on the right side looked somehow more familiar.
For the keypad I changed the key mapping with xmodmap and
keycode 0x43 = KP_F1
keycode 0x4D = KP_F1
keycode 0x70 = KP_F2
keycode 0x44 = KP_F2
keycode 0x3F = KP_F3
keycode 0x45 = KP_F3
keycode 0x56 = KP_Subtract
keycode 0x52 = KP_F4
keycode 0x46 = KP_F4
keycode 0x4F = KP_7 KP_7
KP_7 KP_7
keycode 0x50 = KP_8 KP_8
KP_8 KP_8
keycode 0x51 = KP_9 KP_9
KP_9 KP_9
keycode 0x53 = KP_4 KP_4
KP_4 KP_4
keycode 0x54 = KP_5 KP_5
KP_5 KP_5
keycode 0x55 = KP_6 KP_6
KP_6 KP_6
keycode 0x57 = KP_1 KP_1
KP_1 KP_1
keycode 0x58 = KP_2 KP_2
KP_2 KP_2
keycode 0x59 = KP_3 KP_3
KP_3 KP_3
keycode 0x6C = KP_Enter
keycode 0x5A = KP_0 KP_0
KP_0 KP_0
keycode 0x5B = KP_Decimal KP_Decimal
KP_Decimal KP_Decimal
That made working with TPU/EVE etc. easy. However, for Notes I missed
the comma key on the PC keypad.
(And that key mapping works well with the jed editor on Linux in EDT
mode).
When I used the Linux X11 server to create a DECterm (with
CREATE/TERM/DETACHED/NOLOGGED) or to run an application with a GU,
then
I used a VMS/DECwindows font server.
If needed, I copied files with ftp, I rarely used an NFS or sshfs
client to
access remote directories - mostly because of missing privileges to
export the
directories on other systems and because of incompatibilites or setup
problems.
JF Mezei
the "Delete is DEL" . I tried various incantations in the resource file,
but to no avail, I have to set it manually.
DECterm has no problem handling the delete key by default. But XTERM
seems to use ctrl-H by default and I would like to change it.
FredK
"JF Mezei" <jfmezei...@vaxination.ca> wrote in message
news:4ccf7001$0$23247$c3e8da3$a909...@news.astraweb.com...
Actually, I'm looking for exactly your type of environment... the confusion
is in client vs server and the fact that the terms tend to be transposed
when talking about the graphics/desktop environment. I'm interested in VMS
systems that are generally headless talking to Linux/Thin clients/Mac's, etc
that are sitting on your desktop... and how you interact with the VMS
systems. Do you use the native xterm/emulator to command line into VMS, run
DECterm out to the desktop, other graphical applications. Keymapping
issues. UTF vs MCS/Latin-1. Motif/Locale issues. Font issues. Do you
primarily work in the environment on your desktop and run occasional VMS
stuff remotely, or is the desktop primarily used to get to VMS. Stuff like
that.
FredK
"H Vlems" <hvl...@freenet.de> wrote in message
news:74c901b2-12a7-4a66...@p1g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
FredK
"hb" <becker....@freenet.de> wrote in message
news:19dbd111-7917-407f...@d8g2000yqf.googlegroups.com...
Thanks!
Looks like most people so far here connect to VMS via some form of terminal
emulation and telnet, and less often DECterm set to display back to their
desktop. Doesn't look like a lot of people try to use it as a replacement
for the direct graphics head on the VMS system.
Which to be honest, I'm sitting here with my laptop with a reflection telnet
connection logged into my VMS system upstairs - and I seldom do things like
export a DECterm to my laptop (for example). To be honest, one thing I was
looking to see is if there were people out there who want to have that Linux
thin client essentially as a replacement for the built-in graphics on a
"workstation" - after all local networks are fairly fast and running X11
between my rx2620 and Windows box is very usable.
VAXman-
No. I have not problem with need to switch back and forth. I have Linux
on a 17" Toshiba laptop (as one example) that has a full alternate keypad.
Since the keypak is WEENDOZE biased already, its usefulness in Linux does
not mean all that much to me. However, it does make VMS editing easier as
I can approximate things like the EDT keypad. Of course, it's crippled in
that it has the stupidly large [+] key where DEC keyboards had [,] and [-]
keys.
!!!!!! [+] = [,] CTRL-[+] = [-]
keycode 86 = 0xffac 0xffad
!!
keycode 82 = 0xff94
keycode 63 = 0xff93
keycode 106 = 0xff92
keycode 77 = 0xff91
!!
pointer = 3 2 1 4 5 6 7
The pointer is leftie mapping for me. Others may choose not to do this if
they are no in their "right mind."
On the Mac, I use the Mac full keyboard which has an alternate keypad that
looks like the DEC LK style keyboard's alternate keypad. I don't need any
.Xmodmap for that. I'm using iTerm when I'm not launching a DECterminal.
There's a profile section where I have defined the more typical key escape
sequences. On the Mac, the .Xmodmap file is:
keycode 79 = 0xff91
keycode 89 = 0xff92
keycode 83 = 0xff93
keycode 75 = 0xff94
keycode 77 = 0xffac
FredK
> One thing I have ot figured out with Xterm is how to get it to honour
> the "Delete is DEL" . I tried various incantations in the resource file,
> but to no avail, I have to set it manually.
>
Specific detail?
>
> DECterm has no problem handling the delete key by default. But XTERM
> seems to use ctrl-H by default and I would like to change it.
In V8.3 (IIRC - perhaps V8.3-1H1?) you can SET TERM/DEL=BACK (I think I have
that the right way) and the terminal driver will treat BACKSPACE as DELETE.
This was done to deal with the typical "VT100+" type connection from EFI.
So I can leave my terminal emulator setup to send BACKSPACE when I'm in the
shell, and when I get to the VMS prompt at login I don't have to change the
emulator setting - since BS will be treated as DEL.
VAXman-
>
>I run Reflection X on a Windows XP system and use XDMCP to select the
>desired target host.
>Occasionally I telnet to the remote host and use CREATE/TERM/PERM
>(having Reflection X running as the X server on the pc).
>Annoying things:
>- double width /double height lines are displayed as two identical
>lines
>- keys on the numeric keyboard are improperly mapped
>- Connections with VAX DECwindows produce a font not found error (I
>know, out of scope)
Setup the font server on VMS. I don't have a clue what you do on WEENDOZE
to use it though. Someone else here may have that sussed and respond. If
not, get a Mac and Linux system and it's a piece of cake
Richard B. Gilbert
Have you mentioned this problem to the vendor? I believe the vendor was
Attachmate. Attachmate may have been acquired. . . .
FredK
<VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote in message
Thanks. On the VMS end when you launch a DECterm - do you do any setup to
use a specific VMS keymap file? There are two types of keymap files for
PC-style keyboards on VMS that normally are used when you log into CDE (you
would have to set a logical name if you were not in CDE as the "default"
keymap). One type is a "VT" style where we ignore the engravings and map
the keys positionally incuding PF1 instead of NumLock and the editing keys
in the "right" finger positions - and the other is the "PC" style where we
map the engravings including NumLock.
FredK
"Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilb...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:PrqdnbLBH5AWiE3R...@giganews.com...
The vendor is still Attachmate, and they bought WRQ. Reflection for UNIX
and VMS is the product I am familiar with and use to interact with my VMS
systems from my PC. That isn't an endorsement of the product - but it works
well for me. If there are areas that can be improved, and the vendor is
interested - I'd certainly be willing to help.
Richard B. Gilbert
I still have, and occasionally use, Reflection IV. When I was still
working, having the full VT340 emulation saved me a few twenty mile
round trips to straighten out problems on the night shift.
VAXman-
No, nothing special on the VMS side. I do use the CREATE/TERMINAL quite
often for debugging. I have a command procedure which does CREATE/TERMINAL
and defines DBG$INPUT/DBG$OUTPUT to the FT created. I may use an xterm for
most of the other work but I do expect to be able to debug in this fashion,
save for Macro on V8.4. ;) :P
JF Mezei
networking equipment.
To access VMS, it is almost exclusively DECterms launched via RSH.
When the VMS machines boot, they create a permanent WSA device pointing
to my desktop mac and a corresponding MAC$DISPLAY logical. The RSH
procedure defines DECW$DISPLAY to the value of MAC$DISOPLAY and do the
create/terminal thing.
There are times when I need to telnet into VMS, when the CREATE/TERM
fails to work. (often due to the MAc having forgotten to lost the
XHOST.X0 file which contains the list of permitted clients). But
telnetting to VMS is rare now.
(nd yes, within my lan, I don't bother with ssh).
Bob Koehler
> VAX. The "new" desktop as opposed to the "old" (but I am interested in
> understanding how many people don't use CDE and why). "Recent" versions of
> DECwindows. Types of usage - exporting VMS applications or the VMS desktop.
> Mixing native remote desktop applications (Linux/UNIX/etc) and VMS
> applications. Keyboard issues. Font issues. Locale issues (and non-US
> country issues). Setup issues. Security issues. Even testing issues :-)
VAX is still important to us.
The CDE desktop has two drawbacks that prevent us from using it:
1) Adding scripted features is poorly documented and difficult,
compared to using DCL extensions in a script called from FileView.
The documentation doesn't even address scripting, it just goes
into what code you have to add to your C application.
2) The CDE combines "window manager" with "session manager".
When not using CDE we can pull up multiple independent sessions
from the background menus on Xterminals et. al. When using CDE
the whole X server gets taken over so that one can only
communicate via the first client.
And, of course, there are still a hell of a lot of systems out
there that want to exchange "MIT Magic cookies".
Martin Vorlaender
> [...] To be honest, one thing I was
> looking to see is if there were people out there who want to have that Linux
> thin client essentially as a replacement for the built-in graphics on a
> "workstation" - after all local networks are fairly fast and running X11
> between my rx2620 and Windows box is very usable.
I have an HP t5545 thin client as my working enviroment at the company.
Most of the time I only do RDP sessions to my (virtualized) workstation,
but when porting and debugging software, I use XDMCP to open a session
to the rx2600 (old-style window manager, though) that's sitting in the
server room. I haven't looked too deep into mapping the keyboard, but
it would be an interesting exercise.
cu,
Martin
--
One OS to rule them all | Martin Vorlaender | OpenVMS rules!
One OS to find them | work: m...@pdv-systeme.de
One OS to bring them all | http://vms.pdv-systeme.de/users/martinv/
And in the Darkness bind them.| home: martin.v...@t-online.de
FredK
"Bob Koehler" <koe...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org> wrote in message
news:g$Kq5us...@eisner.encompasserve.org...
VAX isn't going to change - if you want Magic Cookies, Kerberose, et al -
Integrity and Alpha. Not really much that can be done about it. But
information on setup and such is still useful.
Long ago I did a bunch of stuff in customizing CDE and the front panel -
connected with things we were doing for the DII/COE stuff (BTW - there are
magic logicals that will allow all of the CDE/Motif GUI interfaces to look
like UNIX including UNIX path names - which is the reason I was hacking in
an area outside of the X11 server itself). Most of the CDE documentation
was non-OS specific - and pretty bad - almost none VMS-specific. But
strange as it may seem there was a lot of functionality I never knew
existed. I always wanted to go back and do some work to show how to do add
stuff and change things around - but never had time (now I'd have to figure
it all out again :-). I've worked with customers who do extensive use of
the CDE workspaces - and love/hate it.
It all is this strange divide between GUI and command line. On the one
hand, I use the Windows GUI all the time - not only do you have little
choice - but heck it is useful and mostly intutive. But on the other hand,
on VMS unless I'm testing something - I never use things like FileView -
even though it isn't horrible. UNIX folks tend to be the same way - they
have a fancy Gnome desktop littered with xterms - and then a web browser for
everything else... not *too* much different than how I use (and it looks
like many here use) VMS - even when using a remote client to get to VMS.
FredK
"Martin Vorlaender" <m...@pdv-systeme.de> wrote in message
news:op.vljzo...@notemv-tap.mv.privat...
> FredK <fred....@dec.com> wrote:
>> [...] To be honest, one thing I was
>> looking to see is if there were people out there who want to have that
>> Linux
>> thin client essentially as a replacement for the built-in graphics on a
>> "workstation" - after all local networks are fairly fast and running X11
>> between my rx2620 and Windows box is very usable.
>
> I have an HP t5545 thin client as my working enviroment at the company.
> Most of the time I only do RDP sessions to my (virtualized) workstation,
> but when porting and debugging software, I use XDMCP to open a session
> to the rx2600 (old-style window manager, though) that's sitting in the
> server room. I haven't looked too deep into mapping the keyboard, but
> it would be an interesting exercise.
>
> cu,
> Martin
What has your experience been like? Which RDP (Java?). One thing that has
been on my list - is to take XDM over from TCPIP and port a recent version
of it for the next functionality release. I assume you are using a vanilla
Windows/Vista keyboard - and not a VMS keyboard (is the 5545 USB). Any
language issues?
JF Mezei
DECterm will use for various renditions of a VT200 (bold, blink,
underline, reverse video, double width, double height-double-width etc.
And perhaps package them in a unix friendly font format.
Although this was not the plan originally, my Alpha may be powered down
first. Its power supply has showed signs of aging. When this happens,
there won't be a font server left to get proper renditions of VT220
stuff on DECterms (running from a VAX), so I will need to install those
fonts on the Mac.
I had done this ages ago on OS-X classic and had used Fontographer to
convert the font formats.
Martin Vorlaender
> "Martin Vorlaender" <m...@pdv-systeme.de> wrote...
>> I have an HP t5545 thin client as my working enviroment at the company.
>> Most of the time I only do RDP sessions to my (virtualized) workstation,
>> but when porting and debugging software, I use XDMCP to open a session
>> to the rx2600 (old-style window manager, though) that's sitting in the
>> server room. I haven't looked too deep into mapping the keyboard, but
>> it would be an interesting exercise.
>
> been on my list - is to take XDM over from TCPIP and port a recent version
> of it for the next functionality release. I assume you are using a vanilla
> Windows/Vista keyboard - and not a VMS keyboard (is the 5545 USB). Any
> language issues?
The t5545 is Linux-based (called "ThinPro", based on Debian, I think).
It has an XDMCP client built in natively which I use in direct mode to
connect to the rx2600's XDM.
The keyboard is PC-style, connected via USB (though PS/2 is possible).
I haven't used the XDM connection much lately, but can't remember any
particular issues (once I told the DECwindows X server to use the
Austrian-German LK401 mapping).
John Wallace
I'm aware of at least one DEC-supplied terminal emulator for Windows
which came with its own VT fonts (I'm probably thinking of the Multia
emulator, which might have been called VTstar - but I could be
confusbed).
I don't have one handy right now but (a) does anyone else remember it
(b) does anyone know whether it Did The Right Thing with doubleheight
(c) does anyone know what the font licence was or (d) where an
equivalent font package might be found?
Wilm Boerhout
eXcursion, that came with Pathworks, does all the right things (fonts,
keymaps etc.) for VMS. If all you want is VMS access (VAX or Alpha,
don't know about Itanium), you don't need anything else.
And yes, it will run on W7x64, although installation is a bit tricky.
/Wilm
FredK
"John Wallace" <johnwa...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:334bfad1-46b5-46e1...@l17g2000yqe.googlegroups.com...
==========
There was a terminal emulator that was developed by a guy at the same time I
was doing the VWS emulator (which became the basis of DECterm). His was
semi-hobby (think Amiga) at first - and very, very good - we did a lot of
one-upsmanship - but he was actually a terminals group guy and a lot better
than me and did things mine didn't need to do. I believe that this was what
was used on the Multia. I think I had a copy of it squirreled away a long,
long time ago.
Fonts have always been a grey area - because some are/were licenced - so the
font server was always the safest route to providing the fonts rather than
trying to figure out what could be packaged for export off of VMS. I
probably have the fonts I developed myself for the VWS emulator converted to
one of the X11 formats... but I don't know that the layout of the fonts are
the same - they probably are not.
smithfarm
> was doing the VWS emulator (which became the basis of DECterm). His was
> semi-hobby (think Amiga) at first - and very, very good - we did a lot of
> one-upsmanship - but he was actually a terminals group guy and a lot better
> than me and did things mine didn't need to do. I believe that this was what
> was used on the Multia. I think I had a copy of it squirreled away a long,
> long time ago.
>
> Fonts have always been a grey area - because some are/were licenced - so the
> font server was always the safest route to providing the fonts rather than
> trying to figure out what could be packaged for export off of VMS. I
> probably have the fonts I developed myself for the VWS emulator converted to
> one of the X11 formats... but I don't know that the layout of the fonts are
> the same - they probably are not.
>
I don't know if VTstar is the emulator you're talking about but it does
exist, and it runs on Vista (and, I assume, on Win7 as well). It comes
with fonts, too. I haven't tested it much. Now that I have a VAXstation
with an LK401 keyboard, I probably won't be much inclined to, either.
VTstar does have one huge advantage - it's free.
Nathan
FredK
"smithfarm" <presny...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:iapsgi$2k5v$1...@ns.felk.cvut.cz...
I'm an antique. One of my "claims to fame" was that when the first
VAXstation and VWS V1.0 came out - I took a basic VT200 emulator and
replaced the VT100 emulator on VWS. Fun stuff. Written in C, loaded into
paged pool, executed in kernel mode at AST 2. I took that basic emulator
through the VT300/400/500 and invented a number of the "workstation" escape
sequences and lots of fun stuff - my emulator had the first "live" icon that
was actually the terminal in a 1x1 font... the source for my emulator became
the base for DECterm. But "back in the day" - there was still a *real*
terminals group working on real terminals (trivia note: The GPX graphics
option on VAX was designed for a terminal). There was a terminal architect.
Formal specifications. Neat stuff. The PC wasn't a terminal replacement
back then - just because of price. Everyone knew it would kill the VT - but
believe it or not - terminals were a cash cow and were much cheaper than a
PC. If I have the origins of what became VTStar correct - it started out as
a terminal emulator for an Amiga by one of the guys in that group and
evolved... I could be wrong - but there aren't a lot of us terminal emulator
writers.
The multia was a great idea, ahead of it's time, shoehorned into tiny box (I
still have one tucked in a box).
I knew VTStar had been put onto the freeware CD a long time ago - I am
surprised and happy to discover via google that the sources appear to not
have been lost.
Alan Frisbie
> I'm an antique. One of my "claims to fame" was that when the first
> VAXstation and VWS V1.0 came out - I took a basic VT200 emulator and
> replaced the VT100 emulator on VWS. Fun stuff. Written in C, loaded into
> paged pool, executed in kernel mode at AST 2. I took that basic emulator
> through the VT300/400/500 and invented a number of the "workstation" escape
> sequences and lots of fun stuff
One of the terminal emulator features in VWS that I enjoyed was
the escape sequence to shrink the window to an icon. Unless I
am a complete bozo, that feature is missing in the current DECterm.
I had a symbol ICON defined for that escape sequence and could
just type "ICON". Very handy.
Alan
Craig A. Berry
FredK wrote:
> I'm interested in VMS
> systems that are generally headless talking to Linux/Thin clients/Mac's, etc
> that are sitting on your desktop... and how you interact with the VMS
> systems. Do you use the native xterm/emulator to command line into VMS, run
> DECterm out to the desktop, other graphical applications. Keymapping
> issues. UTF vs MCS/Latin-1. Motif/Locale issues. Font issues. Do you
> primarily work in the environment on your desktop and run occasional VMS
> stuff remotely, or is the desktop primarily used to get to VMS. Stuff like
> that.
From Mac OS X 10.5 I connect to OpenVMS Alpha v8.3 and OpenVMS I64
v8.3-1H1 by typing "ssh -X <host>". I don't recall doing anything
special to get this working other than setting up SSH keys.
I've never run the entire desktop with the Mac as the X server (if
that's even possible), just any application that looks for the X display
and knows where to find it.
I don't actually use a lot of DECWindows applications day in and day out
(though I'm typing this in SWB 1.1-10). For terminal work I use GLTerm,
which provides TPU-friendly keypad capabilities out of the box. I have
tried to dabble with using a DECterm, but almost anything involving the
keypad gives me "Unknown escape sequence" or "Syntax error in escape
sequence." No doubt with a day or three of hard slogging I could set up
some key mappings or something and get past that.
I do find it very handy in some circumstances to have a separate window
for the debugger if I'm debugging terminal-based apps. (Other times it's
more slowness and annoyance than it's worth and I just define
DBG$PROCESS to NONE). When I start the DECWindows debugger, I always get:
X Toolkit Warning: Cannot convert string
"-*-Menu-Medium-R-Normal--*-120-*-*-P-*-ISO8859-1" to type FontStruct
which has never bothered me enough to try to track it down.
What does bother me is that editing debugger commands is very difficult,
again due to key mappings. The only way I've found to delete anything
I've typed is to back arrow over it and then use the backspace key,
which deletes forward! This is not a problem in SWB, nor in a DECterm
for that matter.
Overall things seem to work but would probably require lots of digging
in the documentation to work well enough for everyday use. For me it's
never been urgent enough to do that.
That's all at home. At the office we have Windows desktops with an old
version of Reflection that does not have X Server capability. We are
interested in using Netbeans for development, parts of which (I'm told)
don't work without X on the client. Not sure how that will pan out, but
you may want to communicate with the Netbeans folks or review their
requirements as part of your research into what people are using remote
desktops for.
John E. Malmberg
>
> So, I have set myself a modest goal to look at providing a more seamless
> integration of the remote desktop (Linux PC, thin client, etc) for the VMS
> developer and user - with input from the community and without blindly
> making my own assumptions about useage. From a "cookbook" to changes to the
> DECwindows code, setup, or documentation, or more. We'll see where it goes.
Hello Fred,
I will follow up with more details later, but here is it in a nutshell
as I am short on time.
I have used Reflection X with VMS as a font server, NO CDE, just launch
filevue and launch applications from it. With out the font server, a
lot of issues with fonts.
The big problem is that I usually can not keep Microsoft Windows systems
up for more than a week, and X-11 does not tolerate the client going away.
I built Alexie's port of the X11 TO VNC server in the ported list at a
link off of openvms.org. The port is missing several features that
would make it more usable.
The big problem is that it occasionally locks up the DECWindows server,
and restarting the DECWindows server can bugcheck or hang VMS in high
IPL, which I am not currently equipped to debug.
With Decterms, I am running into two problems.
1. The common escape sequence used to query if a terminal is an xterm
hangs the decterm session.
2. Unix applications seem to assume that a terminal can grok UTF-8
characters.
I have planned to look at XCINERAMA on a Linux host to try to get around
the issues, possibly RDP to the Linux host to see the VMS desktop.
-John
wb8...@qsl.network
Personal Opinion Only.
Bob Koehler
>
> It all is this strange divide between GUI and command line. On the one
> hand, I use the Windows GUI all the time - not only do you have little
> choice - but heck it is useful and mostly intutive.
I was really suprised when I got my first Ultrix system. On
VMS, using FileView et. al. really cut down the amount of time
I spent in a terminal window. But on Ultrix, and every other UNIX
Ive used since then except OS X, I couldn't readily do the simple
customizations I needed to get out of the terminal window. I
has expected DECWindows on Ultrix to be at least as feature rich
as DECWindows on VMS.
If I had to do it now, I think I'd load and use Tk/Tcl on all
those UNIX platforms.
The only system I thought got better by switching to CDE was Solaris,
because now my X11 code would compile on run on it without having
issues with every single window manager call.
Bob Koehler
>
> I'm aware of at least one DEC-supplied terminal emulator for Windows
> which came with its own VT fonts (I'm probably thinking of the Multia
> emulator, which might have been called VTstar - but I could be
> confusbed).
>
> I don't have one handy right now but (a) does anyone else remember it
> (b) does anyone know whether it Did The Right Thing with doubleheight
> (c) does anyone know what the font licence was or (d) where an
> equivalent font package might be found?
VTstar was still downloadable form the VMS freeware site the last
time I needed a new copy. All I had to do for the fonts was copy
the file where Windows would look (i.e. RTFM).
I've had no issue with double height/double width/..., but I haven't
tried them for quite some time. I certain I tested them out because
I have a little old VT100 compatability test I wrote decades ago
and it's the first thing I run.
JOUKJ
> There has been talk (here) about how VMS is used in the wild by the
> "developer" and small user community that c.o.v. represents fairly well.
> And how we don't listen. I took it to heart.
>
>
VMS-cluster.
When I'm away (i.e. at home) I use "ssh -Y" from a linux system with
modified xmodmap. From the ssh session I fire-up some DECterm processes.
Jouk
JOUKJ
JohnF
Don't know if this is of any use at all -- I run the bash
shell script
http://www.forkosh.com/vt100.sh
from X on my linux box and then telnet from that terminal
window into vaxstations. All the edt gold keys, etc, seem
to work fine, with your same big [+] key problem, of course.
And I doubt double-wide/high chars would display correctly,
but haven't tried. The script's authors are commented at
the top of the file, as far as I know. My only change was
to flip <key>Right and <key>Left, which apparently needed
flipping. (I also changed colors from green-on-black to
white-on-black, font size from 8x13 to 9x15, and maybe a
few other cosmetic-only changes I don't recall.)
--
John Forkosh ( mailto: j...@f.com where j=john and f=forkosh )
Mike Rechtman
> VAXman- wrote:
>> "FredK"<fred....@dec.com> writes:
>>> <VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote
>>>> "FredK"<fred....@dec.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>> I use mosy my Linux laptop and my Mac. I've done plenty
>>>> with 'xmodmap' for the keycode hacks. I've worked around
>>>> most of the problems using the font server. I access the
>>>> VMS system(s) with 'ssh -X' but I've also toyed with using
>>>> 'xnest'.
>>>>
>>>> As for fonts, the double-high/double-wide terminal fonts
>>>> always cause issue within 'xterm'. I export $CREATE/TERMINAL
>>>> for doing debugging and, without the font server, some of
>>>> the line drawing stuff and, I believe, the reverse video
>>>> use in the character-cell debugger cause issue. I don't
>>>> really use any of the other GUI toys that came with CDE.
>>>> A functional terminal is all I ask for -- and which I have
>>>> now with the font server.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks. I suspect a ot of VMS people (like UNIX folks) are
>>
>> keycode 79 = 0xff91
>> keycode 89 = 0xff92
>> keycode 83 = 0xff93
>> keycode 75 = 0xff94
>> keycode 77 = 0xffac
>
> Don't know if this is of any use at all -- I run the bash
> shell script
> http://www.forkosh.com/vt100.sh
> from X on my linux box and then telnet from that terminal
> window into vaxstations. All the edt gold keys, etc, seem
> to work fine, with your same big [+] key problem, of course.
> And I doubt double-wide/high chars would display correctly,
> but haven't tried. The script's authors are commented at
> the top of the file, as far as I know. My only change was
> to flip<key>Right and<key>Left, which apparently needed
> flipping. (I also changed colors from green-on-black to
> white-on-black, font size from 8x13 to 9x15, and maybe a
> few other cosmetic-only changes I don't recall.)
Many thanks! Almost exactly what I needed.
(Now if anyone know how to make Linux Telnet show Hebrew characters, they will
earn my undying gratitude.)
--
Mike R.
Home: http://alpha.mike-r.com/
QOTD: http://alpha.mike-r.com/php/qotd.php
No Micro$oft products were used in the URLs above, or in preparing this message.
Recommended reading: http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#before
Jeremy Begg
Here's my 2c worth.
I have two desktop environments. In the office I do 95% of my VMS work
using my AlphaStation 255 workstation. The other 5% is on my MacBook Pro
which has a second screen. At home I have an iMac.
In the ofice I always fire up X11 on the MacBook and run these two commands
in the xterm window which X11 creates automatically:
xset fp+ tcp/VMS:7000
xhost +
where 'VMS' is the IP address of my local VMS X11 font server (MultiNet).
I then start a couple of PerfMeter windows on my VMS systems with
DECW$DISPLAY pointing to the MacBook. I also create a DECterm for running
some other monitoring software (OperCon).
However I tend to do very little actual *work* in DECterm on the Mac(s)
because the keyboard mappings are never quite right in EVE. (I'm going to
try using Brian's mappings to see if that improves the experience.)
If I need to log into VMS from the Mac(s) I almost always use the Terminal
application which comes with MacOS X. I also have a little tool called
'KeyRemap4MacBook' installed on my MacBook, configured so that various
function keys and the pageup/pagedown keys generate the right control codes
for VMS. The really nice feature of KeyRemap4MacBook is that it will vary
the keyboard handling according to the current application. This is
particularly useful because without it the top row of function keys on the
MacBook perform various local control actions such as varying the display
brightness, rather than generating keycodes for Terminal or X11.)
One thing I'd really like to be able to do is to use an LK4xx USB keyboard
on my Mac. I have tried it but found that several of the keys appear to be
complete ignored by MacOS -- they don't generate any action at all in X11 or
in Terminal.
Regards,
Jeremy Begg
JF Mezei
> However I tend to do very little actual *work* in DECterm on the Mac(s)
> because the keyboard mappings are never quite right in EVE. (I'm going to
> try using Brian's mappings to see if that improves the experience.)
Because the apple keyboard has one inop key in the keyts above the arrow
keys, it messes up mappings. What I did was to define F13 as the "insert
here".
VAXman-
The mappings I use I use for EDT. I don't use EVE. Jeremy would need to:
1. run XEV on his Alpha
2. get the code for [Do]
3. pick a key on the Mac for a [Do] key
4. run XEV and get its key code
5. modify the .Xmodmap as required.
I'm using a Toshiba laptop running Linux (Ubuntu 9.10) most of the time.
It has a numeric keypad built in but no alternate keypad "island" between
the QWERTY and numeric keypad as is found on an LK keyboard; thus, I have
become pavlovianly conditioned not to rely on that "island" anymore. My
.Xmodmap does NOT address any of the keys in the alternate island on the
Mac keyboard should they be of use/interest to Jeremy.
FredK
"Jeremy Begg" <jeremy.r...@vsm.com.au> wrote in message
news:4CDB7025...@vsm.com.au...
The KB key problem was a brain fart on my part a long time ago. Is there
any low-level HID remapping tools for the MacOS? There are a couple Windows
tools like Key Tweak that allow changes in the registry that the Windows KB
drivers use to re-map HID codes that allow me to work around this brain
fart - to a degree. Essentially the PF keys need to be translated to the
NumLock etc codes.
The brain fart was that I followed the HID description of the keys instead
of just copying the PC keyboard.