[9fans] crazy idea - drawterm in javascript?
Adrian Tritschler
http://linux.slashdot.org/story/11/05/17/0242244/Boot-Linux-In-Your-Browse
then how about drawterm in javascript? Serve it over http and access
your CPU server from anywhere that's got a web browser.
Anyone up for a challenge?
Sorry, I'll be quiet now
--
Adrian
Screw the environment. Print this email immediately. Then burn it
without reading it.
erik quanstrom
> then how about drawterm in javascript? Serve it over http and access
> your CPU server from anywhere that's got a web browser.
russ implemented samterm in js.
- erik
Eric Van Hensbergen
a good starting point for what would need to be done..... There are
actually several variations of this around (vnc in javascript). Not
sure which would be the most simple as a starting point.
-eric
Russ Cox
implemented is a very strong word.
i did a mock of the ui that can highlight text.
(that's all it can do.)
Skip Tavakkolian
project this year. If anyone wants to work on it let me know.
http://www.plan9.bell-labs.com/wiki/plan9/gsoc-2011-ideas/index.html
-Skip
Peter A. Cejchan
i am very unhappy seeing this kind of discussions here (and, the wasted potential to do something more useful in my eyes, sorry, but IMHO)... it resembles me very much the times when Steve Jobbs compromised the ideas of the NeXTstep, first downgrading it to the OpenStep for Windoze users, then downgrading to MacOS X...... look, what happened to linux, bsd, etc: it's all approaching the silly model of windoze, you'll kill me but its IMHO... i don't want zillion of comp. languages to learn when they are capable of mostly the same ... please, please, Bell Labs people, please, do not compromise the ideas... believe me, it was not very much easy to me to throw away all the boilerplate apps served on linux and do the C port of many (>70) of them to switch to native plan9, but i feel it was one of the best decisions in my (professional) life, and remember, i am not a programmer, i am a paleobiologist, hence , user...
Just my sad feelings... native plan9 deserves more focus than it gets, imho... i would hate to see plan9 as a plugin for Mozilla 20.0
Sincerely, Peter, aka
++pac
a proud user of plan9 since 2001...
Joseph Stewart
John Floren
It's not really off-topic, since that's the site that the OP's
slashdot link was about :)
John
Russ Cox
That's the link that started this thread. :-)
I think the HTML Canvas and WebSockets would make
drawterm a bit easier now than it was the last time I tried.
The main problem now is that I don't believe it's possible
to grab all three mouse button clicks reliably.
Russ
Joseph Stewart
John Floren
What the hell? They're not saying, "Screw running on hardware, let's
just boot the whole system in Javascript under a browser", they want
to let you connect to your Plan 9 system from a web browser, because
you can find a Javascript-supporting web browser anywhere (except Plan
9) these days.
As fgb would say, relax. No "Bell Labs people" have even commented on
this thread, and if anybody wants to implement this, it's their own
damn business. Writing a drawterm replacement in Javascript is not
going to "downgrade" Plan 9. In fact, it would be rather useful--now
when you're away from home, you can use somebody else's computer to
connect to your CPU server and read your mail, for example.
John
Skip Tavakkolian
implement and use 9P is a legitimate component to attach to Plan 9.
browsers are the predominant way that users connect to the Net;
websockets in html5 provide the ability to establish a full duplex tcp
connection. why shouldn't we want to use the browser as a 9P server or
client?
On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 10:23 AM, Peter A. Cejchan <tya...@gmail.com> wrote:
Jason Dreisbach
erik quanstrom
> just boot the whole system in Javascript under a browser", they want
> to let you connect to your Plan 9 system from a web browser, because
> you can find a Javascript-supporting web browser anywhere (except Plan
> 9) these days.
>
> As fgb would say, relax. No "Bell Labs people" have even commented on
> this thread, and if anybody wants to implement this, it's their own
> damn business. Writing a drawterm replacement in Javascript is not
> going to "downgrade" Plan 9. In fact, it would be rather useful--now
> when you're away from home, you can use somebody else's computer to
> connect to your CPU server and read your mail, for example.
relax, man. i understand peter's perspective. and i don't think
it's unreasonable. just think about how dbus has downgraded linux.
on the other hand, i think a js virtual machine (mips would be nicer
than x86) might be interesting. drawterm has always been a clever
hack. it would be nice to have emulated environment that's more
portable than 9vx and not tied to 32-bit x86.
one would then be able to write applications for non-plan 9 users
in plan 9. clearly they will have a browser.
not that i'm signing up or anything. :-)
- erik
a z
I would love to use Rio on a touchscreen, unfortunately I need to eat. So if I get that eating thing figured out Ill download Android SDK and make it start reading data from what rio listens to and attaching markup to it.
⎼⎺⎺├@┼␊├├≤-␍⎼␊▒␍:/⎺└␊/⎼⎺#
Skip Tavakkolian
http://code.google.com/p/styxbrowser/
also drawterm port to iphone was one of last year's successful gsoc projects.
that's not the point though; the point is to have something that runs
natively in the browser. if chrome can run angry birds, why not
drawterm!
-Skip
errno
> they want to let you connect to your Plan 9 system from a web
> browser, because you can find a Javascript-supporting web browser
> anywhere (except Plan 9) these days.
>
> Serve it over http and access your CPU server from anywhere
> that's got a web browser.
>
Is it really all that often when a Plan 9 user is in the precarious
situation of needing to access his plan9 system from some
other person's/party's pc or laptop?
Is this for when you glide into a coffee shop and forget your
laptop or something? "Hey, Mr.... may I borrow your laptop's
web browser for a sec... I really need to hack some code on
my plan9 system."
On Tuesday, May 17, 2011 12:04:02 PM Skip Tavakkolian wrote:
> that's not the point though; the point is to have something
> that runs natively in the browser.
>
On Tuesday, May 17, 2011 10:31:32 AM John Floren wrote:
> Writing a drawterm replacement in Javascript is not
> going to "downgrade" Plan 9.
>
Ok, who slipped me the Cr@zy Pills? Just a couple weeks ago,
javascript and web technologies were THE DEVIL INCARNATE...
but suddenly, here's something we can all get behind...
javascript + html5 + browsers and other web standards
are now OK[tm]?
So.... it's cool to have "the 9" running 'native' in a browser
(via javascript!)... but to have "the web" running 'native' in
Plan 9... is stark full of controversy, fear, uncertainty and
doubt?
On Tuesday, May 17, 2011 11:18:45 AM erik quanstrom wrote:
> one would then be able to write applications for non-plan 9
> users in plan 9.
>
I realize I'm being unimaginative, but I'm having a very difficult
time conceiving what sort of plan 9 application could possibly
be appealing to non-plan 9 users.
On Tuesday, May 17, 2011 11:18:45 AM erik quanstrom wrote:
> it would be nice to have emulated environment that's more
> portable than 9vx and not tied to 32-bit x86.
>
Well now this at least actually makes some modicum of sense
to me.
The web is the key.
David Leimbach
Sent from my iPhone
Ugh, I have to comment because to my noobness this sounds like an easy project, and an easy project to over-think. Teach a java app how to draw boxes like rio, and plug it in. Right?
I would love to use Rio on a touchscreen, unfortunately I need to eat. So if I get that eating thing figured out Ill download Android SDK and make it start reading data from what rio listens to and attaching markup to it.
On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 12:18 PM, erik quanstrom <quan...@labs.coraid.com> wrote:
> What the hell? They're not saying, "Screw running on hardware, let's
> just boot the whole system in Javascript under a browser", they want
> to let you connect to your Plan 9 system from a web browser, because
> you can find a Javascript-supporting web browser anywhere (except Plan
> 9) these days.
>
> As fgb would say, relax. No "Bell Labs people" have even commented on
> this thread, and if anybody wants to implement this, it's their own
> damn business. Writing a drawterm replacement in Javascript is not
> going to "downgrade" Plan 9. In fact, it would be rather useful--now
> when you're away from home, you can use somebody else's computer to
> connect to your CPU server and read your mail, for example.
relax, man. i understand peter's perspective. and i don't think
it's unreasonable. just think about how dbus has downgraded linux.
on the other hand, i think a js virtual machine (mips would be nicer
than x86) might be interesting. drawterm has always been a clever
hack. it would be nice to have emulated environment that's more
portable than 9vx and not tied to 32-bit x86.
one would then be able to write applications for non-plan 9 users
in plan 9. clearly they will have a browser.
not that i'm signing up or anything. :-)
- erik
Jacob Todd
Writing/porting web stuff to plan 9 will be hard. Writing something that accesses plan 9 from the web will be less hard.
errno
> Writing/porting web stuff to plan 9 will be hard. Writing
> something that accesses plan 9 from the web will be less
> hard.
>
Correct; but also somewhat ancillary to the general areas
of concern:
> Is it really all that often when a Plan 9 user is in the precarious
> situation of needing to access his plan9 system from some
> other person's/party's pc or laptop?
> Ok, who slipped me the Cr@zy Pills? Just a couple weeks ago,
> javascript and web technologies were THE DEVIL INCARNATE...
> I realize I'm being unimaginative, but I'm having a very difficult
> time conceiving what sort of plan 9 application could possibly
> be appealing to non-plan 9 users.
> The web is the key.
Cheers
David Leimbach
On Tuesday, May 17, 2011 04:40:50 PM Jacob Todd wrote:Correct; but also somewhat ancillary to the general areas
> Writing/porting web stuff to plan 9 will be hard. Writing
> something that accesses plan 9 from the web will be less
> hard.
>
of concern:
> Is it really all that often when a Plan 9 user is in the precarious
> situation of needing to access his plan9 system from some
> other person's/party's pc or laptop?
> Ok, who slipped me the Cr@zy Pills? Just a couple weeks ago,
> javascript and web technologies were THE DEVIL INCARNATE...
> I realize I'm being unimaginative, but I'm having a very difficult
> time conceiving what sort of plan 9 application could possibly
> be appealing to non-plan 9 users.
> The web is the key.
Cheers
errno
Hey David, thanks for responding.
The sci-fi you write below is exactly the sort of fiction I'd find
very interesting in "9 space", and corresponds rather closely
to what I premised in a past thread[1].
So, I believe we're speaking the same language; but the picture
you've painted seems out-of-band to the drawterm-in-browser
idea presented by the OP; for instance:
> Instead of a "traditional web server platform" for web applications
> this could be an alternative deployment target.
>
If we're talking in terms of alternative deployment targets, then
we're talking about a controlled environment where we have
control over the installed software and hardware; but the
drawterm-in-javascript idea is intended for pre-deployed,
3rd-party accessibility to plan 9.
> Use a grid of Plan 9 machines with a "native" interface in JavaScript.
>
and:
> The one that doesn't look like a Plan 9 application, but instead looks
> like a useful application?
>
The drawterm-in-javascript-on-web-browser idea doesn't actually
provide a general-consumer-friendly interface to plan 9 - it just
amounts to window into the currently-existing plan 9 ui... we're still
talking text + libdraw, libpanel, libcontrol, libframe, etc..
I agree that an html + css + javascript ui on Plan 9 would be a
good and familiar way to get native Plan 9 applications into the
hands of general users; but this drawterm-in-javascript idea
does not facilitate the goal of a more "accessible/familiar"
WIMP environment for a general consumer market; though it
would be a useful tool once we finally did have a "native web"
within plan 9 itself, because then 'we' _could_ make good on
erik's:
> one would then be able to write applications for non-plan 9
> users in plan 9.
... in a way that would actually be appealing to non-plan 9
users.
[1] http://www.mail-archive.com/9f...@9fans.net/msg19990.html
Peter A. Cejchan
still, to my taste, to much effort is devoted to things outside the system... however, i am not an MBA, maybe, it is all right.
wishing a fantastic day,
++pac
Charles Forsyth
it's always all right not to be an MBA
Peter A. Cejchan
>>it's always all right not to be an MBA
not here ;-)
Balwinder S Dheeman
> Writing/porting web stuff to plan 9 will be hard. Writing something that
> accesses plan 9 from the web will be less hard.
"The KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid) acronym has been popular in business
for decades, but its message has never been more important and, or
useful for many." -- Rob Tannen
"When simplifying, is's critical to target the right features for
excision, based on the customers' actual needs" -- Rob Tannen
"Solve simple problems and leave the hairy, difficult ones for everyone
else. Instead of one-upping, try one-downing" -- Rob Tannen
But, IMHO, we still need a good web-browser for Plan 9 as well.
BTW, I hate porting bloatware to clean, compact and efficient Plan 9.
--
Balwinder S "bdheeman" Dheeman
(http://werc.homelinux.net/contact/)
dorin bumbu
http://linux.slashdot.org/story/11/05/17/0242244/Boot-Linux-In-Your-Browser
Dorin
a z
I have to revise: that I did point to a java sdk and really should have constrained my contents to something like jquery api instead.
So- why? (why build a website of drawterm)
(I think) I like plan9 as a potential network controller. Not sure if I have the right idea or not. It is 'experimental,' after all. Having a full blown web interface to acme.dump and the things it can do to read and respond to routers of all varieties seems like it could be kind of useful. But I could be misguided, uninformed and tired.
And StyxBrowser seems to lack auth code of any kind, and doesn't connect, or make any useful complaints that I can find right now. Oh it connects to the ip/port that it ships with, and is a file browser not a drawterm port, but that was in the docs. Yeah I would much rather run from (from within, or away from) an ajax app anyway.
much happyness all,
hroyerboat
misguided, uninformed and tired.
Peter A. Cejchan
yes!!
> BTW, I hate porting bloatware to clean, compact and efficient Plan 9.
So, instead of trying to port (the language part) of GNU R, I am learning S+/R and rewriting to plain C, just now...
BTW, S(+) language originated in Bell Labs, didn't it? However, its clone, R, has grown into monstrous all-capable all-inclusive application, or platform per se.
"i hate applications. true computing is black. c++ is to c, as lung cancer is to lung ;-)"
++pac
blst...@bellsouth.net
>> Writing/porting web stuff to plan 9 will be hard. Writing something that
>> accesses plan 9 from the web will be less hard.
>
> "The KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid) acronym has been popular in business
> for decades, but its message has never been more important and, or
> useful for many." -- Rob Tannen
>
> "When simplifying, is's critical to target the right features for
> excision, based on the customers' actual needs" -- Rob Tannen
I'm confused. Why are we using business ideas to constrain what
we are doing with a research system? It seems to me that what
we work on (outside what puts food on the table) should be driven
primarily by what we find intellectually stimulating. I personally
get no stimulation over the idea of porting an existing web browser.
However, the idea of an emulator in a highly portable environment
was interesting enough that I looked around some and found a
PDP-11 emulator running 6th Edition (also in js). I couldn't help
but think about extending Bellard's work to include a drawable
device and a network interface and then building a Plan 9 terminal
for it, or running native Inferno on it, or using the same ideas to
build a Dis VM in js, or... It's true that utility can be a meaningful
motivator for what questions we look at, but if all you care about
is utility, it's hard to beat an android tablet. Like most of us, I
worry about what customers want in my day job. But what
customers want is boring to the point of suicide. To borrow from
the bard; "There is more in the computing universe than is dreamt
of in the PC/Web philosophy." Plan 9 and Inferno are the best
places I've found to glimpse that hidden beauty.
BLS
David Leimbach
Sent from my iPhone
I don't think there's any real constraints. Bottom line is the code is there and it's pretty nice. You can do what you want. If you seek outside approval to chase an idea, you've already failed the most important person in the equation - yourself.
Who cares what anyone else thinks?
Or as Homer Simpson said, "I'm sure Einstein turned himself all kinds of colors before he invented the light bulb".
Balwinder S Dheeman
How useful a research could be which is not backed by a business idea?
Who will fund such projects, why and for how long?
OTOH, nobody is going to stop anyone going his/her own way; everyone has
a right to beat his/her drum and that too either at any rhythm or no
rhythm at all ;)
However, the *real* programmers are different and they should/must know
well what they are doing and why?
comeau...@gmail.com
> ...I'm confused. Why are we using business ideas to constrain what
> we are doing with a research system?
Probably good point. But that said did not Lucent try to market Plan 9 beyond that at some point, or do I have that wrong?
erik quanstrom
> How useful a research could be which is not backed by a business idea?
> Who will fund such projects, why and for how long?
>
you mean a research project like unix or plan 9?
- erik
blst...@bellsouth.net
That's kind of the point I was getting at. Asking how research
is useful isn't asking the most telling question. Research isn't
always about utility; it's about intellectual contribution. Of
course, it's great when research results find their way into
application, but not having direct application (yet) doesn't
devalue the research.
> Who will fund such projects, why and for how long?
Although this seems to have been systematically ignored for
the last 30 years or so, I would argue that an enlightened
organization will recognize that to be innovative in the future,
they must ask the questions no one knows the answers to
now. Some fraction of those questions will lead to practical
applications and some won't. Whether you are measuring
success in competitive advantage or in papers published,
that's why an organization will invest in research.
One way I've described it before is that if you gather together
smart people, give them resources and freedom, you won't
know ahead of time what they'll come up with, but you can
count on them coming up with something. In some cases,
what they come up with is driven by application, like with
the transistor. In some cases, the main applications will
be discovered later as people study the results. To some
extent the LASER falls into that category. And in some cases,
the result has little or no practical application, but it becomes
part of what defines us and our understanding of ourselves.
I'd count the discovery of the cosmic background radiation
in that. IMHO we would all be diminished had any of those
avenues of research been cut off because they were a "cost"
that didn't have a short-term ROI.
> OTOH, nobody is going to stop anyone going his/her own way; everyone has
> a right to beat his/her drum and that too either at any rhythm or no
> rhythm at all ;)
Absolutely, and from where I sit, that's a key part of the 9fans
ethos. If someone has a good idea, then they are encouraged
to implement it and report on what they learn. The results
might get ignored, or they might spark somone else's creativity
to take it further. If it's a practical application that sparks the
idea, great. If it's pure curiosity, that's great too.
BLS
Balwinder S Dheeman
Yes, even Minix and Linux kernel also.
If I'm not wrong Andrew S. Tanenbaum started Minix for educational and,
or research purpose, which inspired the creation of Linux kernel and
Linus Torvalds started it as a hobby and, or research project.
--
Balwinder S "bdheeman" Dheeman
(http://werc.homelinux.net/contact/)
Choosing a distro-comp.os.linux.misc|Google Groups http://bit.ly/hEq1Z