[9fans] Using the Acme Editor

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Wendell xe

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Aug 19, 2008, 11:57:45 AM8/19/08
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Seeking an alternative to vi and emacs, I've been giving Acme a try (acme-sac, actually). After reading the articles and man pages and playing with it for a few days, I'll admit I don't see how Acme could be even remotely competitive with vim/emacs for editing code.

Searching the 9fans archive, I found admonitions that you have to learn Acme's very different operating paradigm, but no specific advice. So I'm posting here a list of editor features I miss in Acme. For each item, what is the Acme way of approaching it?

I hope that the replys in this thread will serve as a reference for others trying to learn Acme.

01. Toggle on/off line wrapping
02. Toggle on/off EOL character display
03. Display line numbers
04. Display ruler
05. Rectangluar block selection
06. Search and replace with confirmation at each item
07. Automatic insertion of spaces for tabs
08. Syntax highlighting of code
09. Code folding
10. Code clips/completion
11. Bookmarks
12. Display file diff with locked parallel windows
13. Customize the contextual display of commands in the tag line
14. Customize the color scheme
15. Change fonts
16. HTML tag matching
17. Display (in status bar?) the Unicode ID of glyph at cursor
18. Display right-to-left text

Also, regarding Acme's use as a file browser:

19. Open new directories in the same window, so that you don't get a desktop full of windows as you drill down through a directory tree.


ron minnich

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Aug 19, 2008, 12:05:04 PM8/19/08
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On Tue, Aug 19, 2008 at 8:52 AM, Wendell xe <wend...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Seeking an alternative to vi and emacs, I've been giving Acme a try (acme-sac, actually). After reading the articles and man pages and playing with it for a few days, I'll admit I don't see how Acme could be even remotely competitive with vim/emacs for editing code.
>


You have to learn it.

If you want emacs and vi, you won't get them with acme -- besides, you
already had them, remember?

Acme is a very nice tool. But you have to climb the learning curve,
and there's no escaping it.

I don't know how else to put it. Most times, I use acme, but still use
emacs and vi as well. They are different.

FWIW, there's lots of people who think emacs and vi are a joke for
code use, and use the more sophisticated IDEs out there. To each his
own.

ron

erik quanstrom

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Aug 19, 2008, 12:22:36 PM8/19/08
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> 01. Toggle on/off line wrapping
> 02. Toggle on/off EOL character display
> 03. Display line numbers
> 04. Display ruler
> 05. Rectangluar block selection
> 06. Search and replace with confirmation at each item
> 07. Automatic insertion of spaces for tabs
> 08. Syntax highlighting of code
> 09. Code folding
> 10. Code clips/completion
> 11. Bookmarks
> 12. Display file diff with locked parallel windows
> 13. Customize the contextual display of commands in the tag line
> 14. Customize the color scheme

i don't see how any of these would be useful
to me. in particular, i especially do not want
a ruler or any ascii-graphical bits. if i want a
typesetter, i'll use one.

if you are the type who wants a hammer with
an lcd temperature display, i would venture
that plan 9 tools are not for you.

> 16. HTML tag matching

this could be a useful addition. it's an easy fix.

> 15. Change fonts

B2 "Font $fontname". B2 means select with the
middle button. for example,
Font /lib/font/bit/cyberbit/mod14.font

> 17. Display (in status bar?) the Unicode ID of glyph at cursor

B2 ">unicode -n `{cat}"

> 18. Display right-to-left text

this is a plan 9 "limitation". although it is an
interesting philisophical question if a text
editor should get involved in such complications.

it seems to me that the zero-width combiners and
directional markers make unicode poor-man's
metafont masquerading as a character set.

then again, i'm a well-known luddite.

- erik


Robert Raschke

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Aug 19, 2008, 12:34:23 PM8/19/08
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Going by your list, I would conclude your code is something in the
vein of Java plus web stuff, maybe even J2EE, or maybe the scourge of
the editing world, Python.

If that's the case and you have to deal with other people's code, Acme
is probably not going to help you very much. In fact Acme will make
the shortcomings of any code you are looking at a lot more obvious.

For me, that's a crucial thing. Keeps my code in check purely through
the text of it.

Acme's strengths lie in navigating, writing and changing code that is
of a certain standard.

Just my thoughts,
Robby

Ramon de Vera

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Aug 19, 2008, 1:53:44 PM8/19/08
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This is all as far as I know how to use acme (mind you I haven't
stretched acme out as far as the other guys might have)...

On Tue, Aug 19, 2008 at 9:52 AM, Wendell xe <wend...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Seeking an alternative to vi and emacs, I've been giving Acme a try (acme-sac, actually). After reading the articles and man pages and playing with it for a few days, I'll admit I don't see how Acme could be even remotely competitive with vim/emacs for editing code.
>

Isn't "I don't see how Acme could be even remotely competitive..."
seem a tad harsh? :-) It is just a little different than what you
normally use. Acme is pretty powerful. And how I answer your questions
below might shed light with you on how it is used.

> Searching the 9fans archive, I found admonitions that you have to learn Acme's very different operating paradigm, but no specific advice. So I'm posting here a list of editor features I miss in Acme. For each item, what is the Acme way of approaching it?
>
> I hope that the replys in this thread will serve as a reference for others trying to learn Acme.
>
> 01. Toggle on/off line wrapping

You can't. It always wraps lines around.

> 02. Toggle on/off EOL character display

Edit ,x/\n/ c/<EOL>\n/
Undo

:-)

> 03. Display line numbers

Edit =

...will show the line number where dot is, but to display the line
number to the side of each line. I have no use for such a thing so I
haven't even thought about it at all as I use acme.

> 04. Display ruler

No such thing in acme.

> 05. Rectangluar block selection

No such thing in acme.

> 06. Search and replace with confirmation at each item

Place in the tagline your edit line,
Edit s/oldtext/newtext/

1. B3-sweep or B3 your text to search
2. B2 your edit line
repeat process from 1 till you are happy

> 07. Automatic insertion of spaces for tabs

No automatic tab-to-space replacements. Naturally you can do it
from an Edit command.

> 08. Syntax highlighting of code

No such thing in acme.

> 09. Code folding

No such thing built-in to acme.

> 10. Code clips/completion

Place cursor where you want to insert text and use the '<' command
and provide the command that outputs your text.

OR

B2-sweep your keyword, and use the '|' command, and provide the
command that will accept the keyword and spit out the corresponding
text.

> 11. Bookmarks

Have a separate bookmark file (or maybe even in the tag line
before you do a Dump), that uses the filepath:linenumber format and
just B3 the 'bookmarks'.

> 12. Display file diff with locked parallel windows

Acme doesn't have a built-in 'diff mode'

> 13. Customize the contextual display of commands in the tag line

If you mean dynamically change available commands in the tag line
as you move around your code, no there is no such thing. (It might be
an interesting acme file server exercise).

If you mean preserve common commands that you use often for the
current work you are doing you can just place the stuff you want in
the tag line and Dump/Load it or pre-load a Guide file.

> 14. Customize the color scheme

Edit the acme code, recompile and enjoy :-) :-) :-) No color scheme
changing stuff built-in to acme. I know some people want their baby
green, polka dot inspired color schemes but acme isn't about that.
:-)

> 15. Change fonts

The Font command does this as well as the command line parameters
to Acme, please see manual.

> 16. HTML tag matching

If you mean automatic tag completion, you can do that using my
suggestion in 10.

If you mean just matching the start and end tags, acme does not
have that built-in or something but you can code (or use Edit?) for
that

> 17. Display (in status bar?) the Unicode ID of glyph at cursor

Eric already answered that.

> 18. Display right-to-left text

Eric already answered that.

>
> Also, regarding Acme's use as a file browser:
>
> 19. Open new directories in the same window, so that you don't get a desktop full of windows as you drill down through a directory tree.

I think some of the other guys have made slight code changes so
that acme will do what you stated, so you'd need to really modify the
acme code, recompile and enjoy.

The other guys might have even better suggestions.

Resistance is futile, you _will_ be assimilated. :-)

Best Regards,
Mon

Russ Cox

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Aug 19, 2008, 2:01:27 PM8/19/08
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> what is the Acme way of approaching it?

> 01. Toggle on/off line wrapping


> 02. Toggle on/off EOL character display

Write shorter lines.

> 03. Display line numbers

You can go to a specific line with :n and
find out the current line with Edit =

> 04. Display ruler

If you really care, you can make a little file called ruler
that contains the text you want and then just open the
file in a window above the one you are editing.
But the Acme way is not to care what column you're on.
Just say no.

> 05. Rectangluar block selection

Someone posted a C program once that interpreted
the current selection as a rectangular block (starting
in the column where the selection began, ending
in the column where it ended, and spanning the lines
that it spans) and replaced each subline with a given
piece of text. But again, just say no.

> 06. Search and replace with confirmation at each item

Put the cursor at the top of the file.
In the tag, type and select

Edit .+#0/old/c/new/

and middle click it. That will search for old, replace it
with new, and scroll the file to highlight and show the
replacement. If you don't like that change, you middle
click Undo. Either way, middle clicking the Edit command
will find and change the next occurrence. So you can
just sit there middle clicking the Edit command until
you find one that you didn't mean to change, Undo,
and then go back to middle clicking Edit. Selecting
the command in the tag keeps acme from moving the
mouse to the changed selection, so that it is easier
to repeat the command.

> 07. Automatic insertion of spaces for tabs

Just say no. If you are forced to use spaces,
acme -a makes them a bit more bearable
by filling in the previous line's indentation
when you type Enter.

> 08. Syntax highlighting of code

Just say no.

> 09. Code folding

This is interesting but doesn't fit easily into the model.
I do wish there were a way to do this, and not just for
folding code. But it would probably break the very deep
assumption in acme that window contents are ordinary
text streams. Acme gets a lot of benefit from that one
decision, but this might be one of the drawbacks.

On the other hand, not having code folding means that
you have to write good code to begin with. Code folding
might be the C++ equivalent of Emacs paren matching for Lisp:

The various ML dialects share the same flaw in their
syntax. They lack a simple property I call editor
friendliness. An editor friendly language has the property
that a simple calculation is all that is needed to locate the
beginning of an expression when one is at the end of an
expression.
As you can guess, Lisp is a very editor friendly language.
Because of this fact, an experienced Emacs user realizes
nearly all of the benefits of structure based editing
without suffering from its restrictions.
--- John D. Ramsdell

The various Lisp dialects share the same flaw in their
syntax. They lack a simple property I call human
friendliness. A human friendly language has the property
that syntactic constructs are different enough from one
another that a simple visual inspection is all that is
needed to locate the beginning of an expression when one
is at the end of an expression.
As you can guess, Lisp is a very human unfriendly
language. Because of this fact, an experienced Lisp user
realizes that it is virtually impossible to write Lisp
programs of any size without substantial mechanical
assistance.
--- Andrew Koenig

You're better off writing code that doesn't need folding
to be read.

> 10. Code clips/completion

Just say no.

> 11. Bookmarks

Make a file with things like

/sys/src/cmd/acme/scrl.c
/sys/src/cmd/acme/scrl.c:100
/sys/src/cmd/acme/scrl.c:/^mousethread

and open it.

> 12. Display file diff with locked parallel windows

Personally, I'm happy with running diff -n and
right-clicking the headers to display a particular
section in context. This is actually better than the
locked windows because at any point you can go
do something else and then come back to it.

> 13. Customize the contextual display of commands in the tag line

Just say no.

> 14. Customize the color scheme

Just say no.

> 15. Change fonts

As Erik pointed out, there is a Font command that applies
to the whole window. Changing fonts inside the text
would break the text model.

> 16. HTML tag matching

Easy external program.

> 17. Display (in status bar?) the Unicode ID of glyph at cursor

As Erik pointed out, you can always cut and paste a character
and feed it to the "unicode" program. You don't even need
Erik's > command. Just type the word unicode (or "unicode -n")
in a tag somewhere, highlight the letter you want,
and then 2-1 click unicode.

> 18. Display right-to-left text

This is essentially left as an exercise to the interested user.
There are a lot of difficult issues here, and none of the
developers use right-to-left text.

> Also, regarding Acme's use as a file browser:
>
> 19. Open new directories in the same window,
> so that you don't get a desktop full of windows
> as you drill down through a directory tree.

Easy external program, but why not just type
the whole path to the directory you want, perhaps
with help from ^F?

Russ


Pietro Gagliardi

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Aug 19, 2008, 4:26:40 PM8/19/08
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On Aug 19, 2008, at 11:52 AM, Wendell xe wrote:

> 01. Toggle on/off line wrapping
> 02. Toggle on/off EOL character display
> 03. Display line numbers
> 04. Display ruler
> 05. Rectangluar block selection
> 06. Search and replace with confirmation at each item
> 07. Automatic insertion of spaces for tabs
> 08. Syntax highlighting of code
> 09. Code folding
> 10. Code clips/completion
> 11. Bookmarks
> 12. Display file diff with locked parallel windows
> 13. Customize the contextual display of commands in the tag line
> 14. Customize the color scheme

Acme is not an IDE. It is a text editor. If you want these facilities,
implement them yourself. That's what the source is provided for.

Some of your ideas can be implemented as external programs.

3. awk '{ print NR, $0 }' file
7. sed 's/ / /g' file > file2 && mv file2 file
12. This is harder. I suggest a program that works like so:
% pdiff a.c b.c
#include <u.h>
#include <libc.h>

int a; char a;

void
main(void) q(void)
{
...
What I suggest is to see how idiff(1) works. idiff merges two files
by allowing you to select which difference to use. The source is /sys/
src/cmd/idiff.c.


Steve Simon

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Aug 19, 2008, 5:03:24 PM8/19/08
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> For me, that's a crucial thing. Keeps my code in check purely through
> the text of it.

If I understand what you are saying I find this is really interesting.
I many of the prople I work with use syntax highlighting editors and I
often find their code difficult to read (I use sam).

In the way that the labs used to keep (I believe) an old alpha system to keep
the code "honest" (64bit and endian clean), I print out my code from
time to time to make sure its readable, to keep it honest.

perhaps its my age.

-Steve

Lyndon Nerenberg

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Aug 19, 2008, 5:28:11 PM8/19/08
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> 11. Bookmarks

Typically handled by 'guide' files. I.e. a file, open in an acme window,
full of B3-able search strings. E.g.:

foo.c:/^main

Also useful with B2-able command strings:

grep -n 'where_is_this_function_called_from\(' *.c
slay program | rc

--lyndon

Don't force it, use a bigger hammer.

Iruata Souza

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Aug 19, 2008, 5:29:41 PM8/19/08
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On Tue, Aug 19, 2008 at 5:22 PM, Pietro Gagliardi <piet...@mac.com> wrote:
> 7. sed 's/ / /g' file > file2 && mv file2 file

rest in peace file2.

iru

Eris Discordia

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Aug 19, 2008, 6:11:49 PM8/19/08
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Just stay away from Acme if you aren't stuck with Plan 9. None of the
features you need or want are supported in Acme out-of-the-box. Not in any
sane, meaningful way. And if you tell the 9people you need them or want
them they'll either tell you it isn't "worth" it, or it isn't "meant" to be
done that way, or go "do it yourself." They don't understand some people
use computers for different reasons than wasting their time "for"
computers, and in ways far different from their way.

That's the gist of responses you've received before this one. I've gone
through these 9ish episodes twice. Plan 9 and the related software just
isn't for someone who wants to Get Their Job Done (tm). It's a "research"
platform for those who want to "tell" other people what they should do and
how they should do it and why any other way would be "sacrilege." No wonder
it has remained as minuscule and insignificant--9people tell you it's
"nimble," don't believe them--as it is after like 24 years of "development."

In any case, Acme is "not" comparable to vi or emacs. Themselves far
inferior to Microsoft Visual Studio, from a practical standpoint. You're
coding on Windows, go for VS .NET Express Edition, free as the air you
breathe but not free as the thoughts you think. You're coding on some
UNIX-like, go for vi or emacs, a matter of taste--I like vi better. You're
"coding" on Plan 9--makes me feel sorry for you--well, Acme is the "best"
thing you can expect. Inbreeding is bound to bring out the worst of
recessive traits; savor them :-P

Finally, if you're going to stay with the 9madness I wish you very good
luck. You're going to need it. Really.

--On Tuesday, August 19, 2008 8:52 AM -0700 Wendell xe
<wend...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Seeking an alternative to vi and emacs, I've been giving Acme a try
> (acme-sac, actually). After reading the articles and man pages and
> playing with it for a few days, I'll admit I don't see how Acme could be
> even remotely competitive with vim/emacs for editing code.
>

> Searching the 9fans archive, I found admonitions that you have to learn
> Acme's very different operating paradigm, but no specific advice. So I'm
> posting here a list of editor features I miss in Acme. For each item,

> what is the Acme way of approaching it?
>

> I hope that the replys in this thread will serve as a reference for
> others trying to learn Acme.
>

> 01. Toggle on/off line wrapping
> 02. Toggle on/off EOL character display
> 03. Display line numbers
> 04. Display ruler
> 05. Rectangluar block selection
> 06. Search and replace with confirmation at each item
> 07. Automatic insertion of spaces for tabs
> 08. Syntax highlighting of code
> 09. Code folding
> 10. Code clips/completion
> 11. Bookmarks
> 12. Display file diff with locked parallel windows
> 13. Customize the contextual display of commands in the tag line
> 14. Customize the color scheme

> 15. Change fonts
> 16. HTML tag matching

> 17. Display (in status bar?) the Unicode ID of glyph at cursor

> 18. Display right-to-left text

Francisco J Ballesteros

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Aug 19, 2008, 6:16:37 PM8/19/08
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I admit we all use plan 9 just to justify ourselves to read and write
threads like the one this post might trigger on 9fans.
For everything else, we use DOS, which is windows simplified, along with edlin.

andrey mirtchovski

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Aug 19, 2008, 6:17:19 PM8/19/08
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Ms. Discordia, if you don't like it here why do you stay?

Steve Simon

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Aug 19, 2008, 6:28:55 PM8/19/08
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> Plan 9 and the related software just
> isn't for someone who wants to Get Their Job Done (tm).

Sorry, I have to bite.

Its because I want to "Get my job done"™ that I use plan9.

-Steve

erik quanstrom

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Aug 19, 2008, 6:49:56 PM8/19/08
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> It's a "research"
> platform for those who want to "tell" other people what they should do and
> how they should do it and why any other way would be "sacrilege."

thanks for setting me straight. for some reason, i thought my company had shipped
several thousand units based on plan 9. i don't know what would have
given me that idea.

> No wonder
> it has remained as minuscule and insignificant--9people tell you it's
> "nimble," don't believe them--as it is after like 24 years of "development."

also, could you send me the new subtraction table we're supposed
to be using.

[Pike90] R. Pike, D. Presotto, K. Thompson, H. Trickey,
``Plan 9 from Bell Labs'',
.I
UKUUG Proc. of the Summer 1990 Conf. ,
London, England,
1990.

- erik


Federico G. Benavento

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Aug 19, 2008, 6:49:41 PM8/19/08
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relax

--
Federico G. Benavento

Pietro Gagliardi

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Aug 19, 2008, 6:50:11 PM8/19/08
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On Aug 19, 2008, at 6:00 PM, Eris Discordia wrote:

> That's the gist of responses you've received before this one. I've
> gone through these 9ish episodes twice. Plan 9 and the related
> software just isn't for someone who wants to Get Their Job Done
> (tm). It's a "research" platform for those who want to "tell" other
> people what they should do and how they should do it and why any
> other way would be "sacrilege." No wonder it has remained as
> minuscule and insignificant--9people tell you it's "nimble," don't
> believe them--as it is after like 24 years of "development."

Wrong on so many levels. Plan 9 lets you Get The Job Done(TM), but in
a completely different way from *your* approach. Plan 9 obeys the UNIX
way: tools that make jobs simpler. This is augmented by 33 libraries
that provide common utilities in a transparent way. "Everything is a
UTF-8 text file or a mountable filesystem, even devices and severs"
encourages transparency of modules: you can copy a file from a Gopher
network to a mobile phone or without running a million commands. If
you are not like that, leave.


Pietro Gagliardi

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Aug 19, 2008, 6:50:27 PM8/19/08
to
Sorry, I forgot to finish my comments:

Wrong on so many levels. Plan 9 lets you Get The Job Done(TM), but in
a completely different way from *your* approach. Plan 9 obeys the UNIX
way: tools that make jobs simpler. This is augmented by 33 libraries
that provide common utilities in a transparent way. "Everything is a
UTF-8 text file or a mountable filesystem, even devices and severs"
encourages transparency of modules: you can copy a file from a Gopher

network in Tokyo to a mobile phone from Mexico or have the filesystem
report how much free space is left without running a million commands
or typing a thousand lines of code. If you are not like that, leave.

Eris Discordia

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Aug 19, 2008, 7:23:56 PM8/19/08
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> Ms. Discordia, if you don't like it here why do you stay?

"Just lurking," I overheard the "hackers" say.

--On Tuesday, August 19, 2008 4:12 PM -0600 andrey mirtchovski

Eris Discordia

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Aug 19, 2008, 7:37:33 PM8/19/08
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No, you justify your salary, dear Sir. I honestly respect you for having
written the nemo book--you're nemo after all. That, however, won't change
my stance on Plan 9 and the 9people. You have nothing else but
"researching" OS's and "submitting" papers. That "justifies" your 9life.
Others, like me, have some "petty" work to do. Like knowing which character
on which line they're editing or controlling how long their lines of text
get, _without_ resorting to acrobatics.

--On Wednesday, August 20, 2008 12:14 AM +0200 Francisco J Ballesteros

Jonathan Cast

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Aug 19, 2008, 7:41:52 PM8/19/08
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On Wed, 2008-08-20 at 00:27 +0100, Eris Discordia wrote:
> No, you justify your salary, dear Sir. I honestly respect you for having
> written the nemo book--you're nemo after all. That, however, won't change
> my stance on Plan 9 and the 9people. You have nothing else but
> "researching" OS's and "submitting" papers. That "justifies" your 9life.
> Others, like me, have some "petty" work to do.

Evidently not... (Or you'd be doing it now).

> Like knowing which character
> on which line they're editing or controlling how long their lines of text
> get, _without_ resorting to acrobatics.

jcc

Eris Discordia

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Aug 19, 2008, 8:01:10 PM8/19/08
to
> Wrong on so many levels.

Go read the responses 9people gave the original poster. You'll see why it's
_right_ on so many levels.

> Plan 9 obeys the UNIX way: tools that make jobs simpler.

A UNIX better than UNIX? I thought that was just the thing 9people claimed
to be past. Didn't I hear someone saying, "Plan 9 is not UNIX?" Ahem...
GNU's Not UNIX, too, nah?

> "Everything is a UTF-8 [...]"

Do me a favor. Fire up your beloved upas, use mail, and relay one email
through upas/smtpd to smtp.gmail.com:587 with the words "שָׁלוֹם
עֲלֵיכֶם" (Hebrew, Shalom aleichem) or "سلام علیکم"
(Arabic, Salam-on alaikom) to my address. Let's see if "the mail goes
through."

> "Everything is a UTF-8 text file or a mountable filesystem, even devices
> and severs" encourages transparency of modules: you can copy a file from
> a Gopher network in Tokyo to a mobile phone from Mexico or have the
> filesystem report how much free space is left without running a million
> commands or typing a thousand lines of code.

The path from Gopher to your PC--or it was a Mac that you had?--was paved
years ago on UNIX. Then the path from Tokyo to Mexico was built on UNIX,
and today it _runs_ on UNIX. Now, the real problem begins when you want to
get your cell phone to talk 9P-over-IP.

Do you have a 9P client for your cell phone? You "wrote" it already? Does
it run on Java? Or Symbian? Or Vendor X's proprietary embedded OS? Did you
do it on Plan 9? Or did you snatch an SDK written for some other livelier
OS?

Go fool someone else with your empty rhetoric, buddy.

> If you are not like that, leave.

No, I _am_ not like that. I also _don't_ like that. And I've left. The post
was not for you to chew on, it was for the benefit of the thread's
originator.


--On Tuesday, August 19, 2008 6:25 PM -0400 Pietro Gagliardi

Eris Discordia

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Aug 19, 2008, 8:19:32 PM8/19/08
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> Its because I want to "Get my job done"™ that I use plan9.

Bite if you please. Hook, line, and sinker ;-)

What's your job?

1. Maintaining a Plan 9 system?
2. Programming a Plan 9 system?
3. Researching a Plan 9 system?
4. Or you got some job other than jobs created _around_ Plan 9 and you use
Plan 9?

(1) through (3) mean Plan 9 is your "job." You feed off of it. Dealing with
its quirks is your business. Well, that's your lot. Others are probably
luckier.

If your "job" is not 1-3 and you have a "computer job" tell me who has
allowed you to use a research platform in production environment? Are you
at Rangboom or Coraid, or implementing one of the _few_ applications Plan 9
has found in the "Real World?" Are you a freelancer? What sort of customers
do you have?

What exactly do you Get Done (tm) on Plan 9? I mean, aren't there easier
ways to do it? If yes, staying on Plan 9 is simply "fanity"--a la vanity--
and "fanity" is beyond reason; my reason, at least. If no, how come your
job's so specific that can't be done on much more widely used systems?
Probably it's just 1-3.

--On Tuesday, August 19, 2008 11:26 PM +0100 Steve Simon
<st...@quintile.net> wrote:

>> Plan 9 and the related software just
>> isn't for someone who wants to Get Their Job Done (tm).
>

David Leimbach

unread,
Aug 19, 2008, 8:30:30 PM8/19/08
to
We barely knew you? 

Pietro Gagliardi

unread,
Aug 19, 2008, 8:33:20 PM8/19/08
to
On Aug 19, 2008, at 7:51 PM, Eris Discordia wrote:
>> Plan 9 obeys the UNIX way: tools that make jobs simpler.
>
> A UNIX better than UNIX? I thought that was just the thing 9people
> claimed to be past. Didn't I hear someone saying, "Plan 9 is not
> UNIX?" Ahem... GNU's Not UNIX, too, nah?

No, that's not what I said. I said that Plan 9 obeys the UNIX
philosophy, not that it was UNIX. GNU obeys this philosophy (up to the
point of where to draw the lines on the size of tools). And to some
extent, Windows (Windows Movie Maker doesn't call up another computer
now, does it?)

>> "Everything is a UTF-8 [...]"
>
> Do me a favor. Fire up your beloved upas, use mail, and relay one
> email through upas/smtpd to smtp.gmail.com:587 with the words
> "שָׁלוֹם עֲלֵיכֶם" (Hebrew, Shalom aleichem) or
> "سلام علیکم" (Arabic, Salam-on alaikom) to my address. Let's
> see if "the mail goes through."
>

Mac, and I use OS X Mail (so I can get my hands on IMAP's folder
system). How about the fact that Simon was able to give you a
trademark symbol? Do yourself a favor: YOU test it. Look in /lib/
keyboard for some characters and send them here. If they come back as
sent, you've proven my point. Otherwise, you found a bug.

>> "Everything is a UTF-8 text file or a mountable filesystem, even
>> devices
>> and severs" encourages transparency of modules: you can copy a file
>> from
>> a Gopher network in Tokyo to a mobile phone from Mexico or have the
>> filesystem report how much free space is left without running a
>> million
>> commands or typing a thousand lines of code.
>
> The path from Gopher to your PC--or it was a Mac that you had?--was
> paved years ago on UNIX. Then the path from Tokyo to Mexico was
> built on UNIX, and today it _runs_ on UNIX. Now, the real problem
> begins when you want to get your cell phone to talk 9P-over-IP.
>
> Do you have a 9P client for your cell phone? You "wrote" it already?
> Does it run on Java? Or Symbian? Or Vendor X's proprietary embedded
> OS? Did you do it on Plan 9? Or did you snatch an SDK written for
> some other livelier OS?
>
> Go fool someone else with your empty rhetoric, buddy.
>

My rhetoric is not empty. I am not saying go ahead and write that 9P.
I'm saying the jobs are trivial, only three lines of rc:

gopherfs -m/n/gopher tokyo.ac.jp # Demonstration; don't try this
motorola -m/n/cell -M 'RAZR V3' 555 555 5555
cp /n/gopher/a/b/r.tokyo.jpg /n/cell/pictures/r.tokyo.jpg

Write that in sockets. Since that is what you use, don't you?

As for filesystem usage,

echo fsys all df | con -l /srv/fscons

Go look up the source for GNU df, and tell me if it's that simple.

>> If you are not like that, leave.
>
> No, I _am_ not like that. I also _don't_ like that. And I've left.
> The post was not for you to chew on, it was for the benefit of the
> thread's originator.
>

Good riddance. But you're missing a wonderful opportunity. Just open
your eyes.

On Aug 19, 2008, at 8:10 PM, Eris Discordia wrote:

> What exactly do you Get Done (tm) on Plan 9? I mean, aren't there
> easier ways to do it? If yes, staying on Plan 9 is simply "fanity"--
> a la vanity-- and "fanity" is beyond reason; my reason, at least. If
> no, how come your job's so specific that can't be done on much more
> widely used systems? Probably it's just 1-3.

- Programming in userland: mainly compiler design, along with a few
other projects.
- Document typesetting (I love troff). That's not on your list, is it?
- Goofing off: lots of free games

The point of this all?

Plan 9 is not JUST a research system. It is a complete operating
system. It has great tools for making greater tools, or for just
increasing (or decreasing) your productivity. If you're too blunt to
care, fuck off. You've done that to us already, on many occasions.


Eris Discordia

unread,
Aug 19, 2008, 8:40:31 PM8/19/08
to
I'm cool.

--On Tuesday, August 19, 2008 7:46 PM -0300 "Federico G. Benavento"
<bena...@gmail.com> wrote:

> relax
>
> --
> Federico G. Benavento
>

Eris Discordia

unread,
Aug 19, 2008, 8:30:55 PM8/19/08
to Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs
> thanks for setting me straight. for some reason, i thought my company
> had shipped several thousand units based on plan 9. i don't know what
> would have given me that idea.

Somebody would make a bad choice anyway. Microsoft shipped "thousands" of
copies of Microsoft Bob before they learnt about their mistake. Let's see
if your company, founded 2000, survives its Coraid Bob. And I hear your
primary source of sustenance is an AoE driver for _Linux_. You're leeching
another OS's user base and boasting doing Plan 9? Where would you be
without "Linux Support for EtherDrive (R) Storage?"
(http://support.coraid.com/support/linux/)

> also, could you send me the new subtraction table we're supposed
> to be using.
>
> [Pike90] R. Pike, D. Presotto, K. Thompson, H. Trickey,
> ``Plan 9 from Bell Labs'',
> .I
> UKUUG Proc. of the Summer 1990 Conf. ,
> London, England,
> 1990.

Yes. According to Wikipedia:

"It was developed as the research successor to Unix by the Computing
Sciences Research Center at Bell Labs between the mid-1980s and 2002."

Mid-1980s ~ 1985
Current date (here) = August 20, 2008

2008 - 1985 + 1 = 24. Update your table.

Apparently, Plan 9 was being developed some years before the paper. You
know, you gotta do something with the free time on your hand. Create an OS,
for example. And pull a paper out of it after some years.

By the way, what exactly happened to Plan 9 on 2002? Was it "dismantled?"
Or did they shut the "furnace" down?

--On Tuesday, August 19, 2008 6:34 PM -0400 erik quanstrom
<quan...@quanstro.net> wrote:

>> It's a "research"
>> platform for those who want to "tell" other people what they should do
>> and how they should do it and why any other way would be "sacrilege."
>

> thanks for setting me straight. for some reason, i thought my company
> had shipped several thousand units based on plan 9. i don't know what
> would have given me that idea.
>

>> No wonder
>> it has remained as minuscule and insignificant--9people tell you it's
>> "nimble," don't believe them--as it is after like 24 years of
>> "development."
>

Eris Discordia

unread,
Aug 19, 2008, 9:04:12 PM8/19/08
to
> Evidently not... (Or you'd be doing it now).

Petty work is _petty_, you see. They give you some breaks during which you
come to desolate mailing lists and upload enlightening orations. I know,
it's a pretty miserable life--my life.

--On Tuesday, August 19, 2008 4:36 PM -0700 Jonathan Cast

Eris Discordia

unread,
Aug 19, 2008, 9:04:27 PM8/19/08
to
Yes, try that. Sam has an "edge" over vi by being a desperate half-clone of
ed.

Is it sam that attaches a file named "winmail.dat" to your emails?!

--On Tuesday, August 19, 2008 4:03 PM -0700 Benjamin Huntsman
<BHun...@mail2.cu-portland.edu> wrote:

> You might give Sam a try. I'm still working my way up to Acme too, but
> Sam has an edge over vi for me... ...Might be nice if there was an
> option to open a document in a default window though, but if it were a
> big enough concern, I've got the source and could make the change... :)
>
>
> -Ben

Eris Discordia

unread,
Aug 19, 2008, 9:49:47 PM8/19/08
to
> No, that's not what I said. I said that Plan 9 obeys the UNIX philosophy,
> not that it was UNIX. GNU obeys this philosophy (up to the point of where
> to draw the lines on the size of tools). And to some extent, Windows
> (Windows Movie Maker doesn't call up another computer now, does it?)

I guess "the UNIX philosophy"--whatever that vague phrase is supposed to
mean--contains "the X philosophy." The core dictum goes: "mechanism, not
policy." That is, they give you the "femur," you determine its use. Russ
Cox knows this better; he's the one at the MIT. "The Plan 9 philosophy"
goes as far as telling you to "not ask for a ruler" in your text editor
(ruler in vi := a pair of numbers; column, row).

> Mac, and I use OS X Mail (so I can get my hands on IMAP's folder system).
> How about the fact that Simon was able to give you a trademark symbol? Do

> yourself a favor: YOU test it. Look in /lib/keyboard for some characters


> and send them here. If they come back as sent, you've proven my point.
> Otherwise, you found a bug.

Plan 9 is not _my_ pet OS. 9people, and you who are too young to be a
9person, are taking pride in "UTF-8." That's been the gesture for a over a
decade. Now, it's old, it's insignificant, and Plan 9 doesn't even deliver.
Anyway, _you_ made a claim. You have to prove it. I don't even run Plan 9
anymore. Gave it up.

Steve Simon's trademark character, I presume, was generated by
[Alt]+0153--you call [Alt] an "Option" key, right? Well below 255, it's
just extended/8-bit ASCII. Not right-to-left, not even out of ISO 8859. You
could generate that character even on MS-DOS.

Though, his email's header says the charset if UTF-8. No big deal.

> gopherfs -m/n/gopher tokyo.ac.jp # Demonstration; don't try this
> motorola -m/n/cell -M 'RAZR V3' 555 555 5555
> cp /n/gopher/a/b/r.tokyo.jpg /n/cell/pictures/r.tokyo.jpg

Zing! Who wrote the fs behind /n/cell? You got Morotola to write it for you?

$ curl gopher://tokyo.ac.jp/a/b/r.tokyo.jpg
$ ifconfig cellnetif num "555 555 5555"
$ mount -t motofs /dev/cellnetif /mnt/cell
$ cp ./r.tokyo.jpg /mnt/cell/

(You gotta use an archaic version of curl. Gopher support was removed when
mammoths roamed the Earth)

Of course, motofs and cellnetif are imaginary, just like your "motorola."
The problem is the same on UNIX and Plan 9, but on UNIX it is much more
likely that you find someone who solved it before. And it is much less
likely that someone tells you it isn't "the way to do it."

Incidentally, someone I know has recently bought a Motorola A1200 that runs
a nice tiny Linux.

> Write that in sockets. Since that is what you use, don't you?

Write that in Plan 9 system calls. That is what _you_ use, don't you?

The fs's are only abstraction layers. You could implement them on _any_
system. Given you were dour enough to do it. Writing a particular fs is a
problem. Plan 9 doesn't make it any more trivial. Oh, don't tell me it's
got 9P. 9P could be any text-based protocol. What's the difference between
9P-over-IP and HTTP? Or SOAP? Or XML-WS?

> Good riddance. But you're missing a wonderful opportunity. Just open your
> eyes.

"Thank you."

--On Tuesday, August 19, 2008 8:30 PM -0400 Pietro Gagliardi
<piet...@mac.com> wrote:

> On Aug 19, 2008, at 7:51 PM, Eris Discordia wrote:
>>> Plan 9 obeys the UNIX way: tools that make jobs simpler.
>>
>> A UNIX better than UNIX? I thought that was just the thing 9people
>> claimed to be past. Didn't I hear someone saying, "Plan 9 is not
>> UNIX?" Ahem... GNU's Not UNIX, too, nah?
>
> No, that's not what I said. I said that Plan 9 obeys the UNIX philosophy,
> not that it was UNIX. GNU obeys this philosophy (up to the point of where
> to draw the lines on the size of tools). And to some extent, Windows
> (Windows Movie Maker doesn't call up another computer now, does it?)
>
>>> "Everything is a UTF-8 [...]"
>>
>> Do me a favor. Fire up your beloved upas, use mail, and relay one
>> email through upas/smtpd to smtp.gmail.com:587 with the words
>> "שָׁלוֹם עֲלֵיכֶם" (Hebrew, Shalom aleichem) or
>> "سلام علیکم" (Arabic, Salam-on alaikom) to my address. Let's
>> see if "the mail goes through."
>>
>
> Mac, and I use OS X Mail (so I can get my hands on IMAP's folder system).
> How about the fact that Simon was able to give you a trademark symbol? Do

> yourself a favor: YOU test it. Look in /lib/keyboard for some characters

Eris Discordia

unread,
Aug 19, 2008, 9:52:14 PM8/19/08
to
> take it easy on the porn and get some real sex, eris. you're way too
> angry.

Sir, yessir! The Marines don't do Japanese, sir!

--On Tuesday, August 19, 2008 10:31 PM -0300 Iruata Souza
<iru....@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, Aug 19, 2008 at 8:51 PM, Eris Discordia
> <eris.di...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Wrong on so many levels.
>>
>> Go read the responses 9people gave the original poster. You'll see why
>> it's _right_ on so many levels.
>>

>>> Plan 9 obeys the UNIX way: tools that make jobs simpler.
>>
>> A UNIX better than UNIX? I thought that was just the thing 9people
>> claimed to be past. Didn't I hear someone saying, "Plan 9 is not UNIX?"
>> Ahem... GNU's Not UNIX, too, nah?
>>

>>> "Everything is a UTF-8 [...]"
>>
>> Do me a favor. Fire up your beloved upas, use mail, and relay one email
>> through upas/smtpd to smtp.gmail.com:587 with the words "שָׁלוֹם
>> עֲלֵיכֶם" (Hebrew, Shalom aleichem) or "سلام علیکم"
>> (Arabic, Salam-on alaikom) to my address. Let's see if "the mail goes
>> through."
>>

>>> "Everything is a UTF-8 text file or a mountable filesystem, even devices
>>> and severs" encourages transparency of modules: you can copy a file from
>>> a Gopher network in Tokyo to a mobile phone from Mexico or have the
>>> filesystem report how much free space is left without running a million
>>> commands or typing a thousand lines of code.
>>
>> The path from Gopher to your PC--or it was a Mac that you had?--was paved
>> years ago on UNIX. Then the path from Tokyo to Mexico was built on UNIX,
>> and today it _runs_ on UNIX. Now, the real problem begins when you want
>> to get your cell phone to talk 9P-over-IP.
>>
>> Do you have a 9P client for your cell phone? You "wrote" it already?
>> Does it run on Java? Or Symbian? Or Vendor X's proprietary embedded OS?
>> Did you do it on Plan 9? Or did you snatch an SDK written for some other
>> livelier OS?
>>
>> Go fool someone else with your empty rhetoric, buddy.
>>

>>> If you are not like that, leave.
>>
>> No, I _am_ not like that. I also _don't_ like that. And I've left. The
>> post was not for you to chew on, it was for the benefit of the thread's
>> originator.
>

> take it easy on the porn and get some real sex, eris. you're way too
> angry.
>
> iru

Pietro Gagliardi

unread,
Aug 19, 2008, 10:04:58 PM8/19/08
to
I have an idea, Eris. Why don't you fuck off and actually USE Plan 9
for once?


Pietro Gagliardi

unread,
Aug 19, 2008, 10:10:40 PM8/19/08
to
On Aug 19, 2008, at 9:39 PM, Eris Discordia wrote:

>> No, that's not what I said. I said that Plan 9 obeys the UNIX
>> philosophy,
>> not that it was UNIX. GNU obeys this philosophy (up to the point of
>> where
>> to draw the lines on the size of tools). And to some extent, Windows
>> (Windows Movie Maker doesn't call up another computer now, does it?)
>
> I guess "the UNIX philosophy"--whatever that vague phrase is
> supposed to mean--contains "the X philosophy." The core dictum goes:
> "mechanism, not policy." That is, they give you the "femur," you
> determine its use. Russ Cox knows this better; he's the one at the
> MIT. "The Plan 9 philosophy" goes as far as telling you to "not ask
> for a ruler" in your text editor (ruler in vi := a pair of numbers;
> column, row).

No, that's not the UNIX philosophy. That's the X/Linux/GNU philosophy.
Go read "Program Design in the UNIX Environment" by Kernighan and Pike
to see what I mean.

>
>
>> Mac, and I use OS X Mail (so I can get my hands on IMAP's folder
>> system).
>> How about the fact that Simon was able to give you a trademark
>> symbol? Do
>> yourself a favor: YOU test it. Look in /lib/keyboard for some
>> characters
>> and send them here. If they come back as sent, you've proven my
>> point.
>> Otherwise, you found a bug.
>
> Plan 9 is not _my_ pet OS. 9people, and you who are too young to be
> a 9person, are taking pride in "UTF-8." That's been the gesture for
> a over a decade. Now, it's old, it's insignificant, and Plan 9
> doesn't even deliver. Anyway, _you_ made a claim. You have to prove
> it. I don't even run Plan 9 anymore. Gave it up.
>
> Steve Simon's trademark character, I presume, was generated by [Alt]
> +0153--you call [Alt] an "Option" key, right? Well below 255, it's
> just extended/8-bit ASCII. Not right-to-left, not even out of ISO
> 8859. You could generate that character even on MS-DOS.
>
> Though, his email's header says the charset if UTF-8. No big deal.

In Plan 9, it's Alt t m, as three individual keystrokes. See
keyboard(6) to find out what your system would see as Alt. You don't
need to keep the Alt held down. Now send yourself an email with Alt f
a (the for all character) and Alt * P (uppercase pi)

>
>
>> gopherfs -m/n/gopher tokyo.ac.jp # Demonstration; don't try this
>> motorola -m/n/cell -M 'RAZR V3' 555 555 5555
>> cp /n/gopher/a/b/r.tokyo.jpg /n/cell/pictures/r.tokyo.jpg
>
> Zing! Who wrote the fs behind /n/cell? You got Morotola to write it
> for you?
>
> $ curl gopher://tokyo.ac.jp/a/b/r.tokyo.jpg
> $ ifconfig cellnetif num "555 555 5555"
> $ mount -t motofs /dev/cellnetif /mnt/cell
> $ cp ./r.tokyo.jpg /mnt/cell/
>
> (You gotta use an archaic version of curl. Gopher support was
> removed when mammoths roamed the Earth)
>
> Of course, motofs and cellnetif are imaginary, just like your
> "motorola." The problem is the same on UNIX and Plan 9, but on UNIX
> it is much more likely that you find someone who solved it before.
> And it is much less likely that someone tells you it isn't "the way
> to do it."
>
> Incidentally, someone I know has recently bought a Motorola A1200
> that runs a nice tiny Linux.

Impressive. Someone learned something from us after all. (1985 -- when
did curl come out?)

>
>
>> Write that in sockets. Since that is what you use, don't you?
>
> Write that in Plan 9 system calls. That is what _you_ use, don't you?
>

It would be about 75% shorter. And you can't just use the system
calls. libc is built around subroutines. In all, Rob Pike got
connected to an IP address in 2 lines of code compared to ~20 for
sockets. ("The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly")

>> Good riddance. But you're missing a wonderful opportunity. Just
>> open your
>> eyes.
>
> "Thank you."

No comment.


a...@9srv.net

unread,
Aug 19, 2008, 10:08:36 PM8/19/08
to 9f...@9fans.net
// Others, like me, have some "petty" work to do. Like knowing which
// character on which line they're editing or controlling how long their
// lines of text get, _without_ resorting to acrobatics.

Wait, your *job* is knowing where editor cursors are and how long
lines are? Wow, that really sucks. No wonder you're so angry.


Iruata Souza

unread,
Aug 19, 2008, 10:30:56 PM8/19/08
to
eris, I agree, thanks.

iru

a...@9srv.net

unread,
Aug 19, 2008, 10:32:07 PM8/19/08
to
// Bite if you please. Hook, line, and sinker ;-)

Oh, I'm waiting for a phone call before bed. What the hell.

My job has nothing to do with your 1-3. I agree with Steve exactly: I
use Plan 9 because it allows me to get my job done easier. My job
includes some programming, some document writing, lots of
reading. I've never been employed to count columns or fold lines. I
use Acme (even when not on Plan 9) because, at least for me, the
interface encourages good mental habits that help me produce
quality stuff.

I find the applications and interfaces in Plan 9 to be far more
consistent and convenient than in other systems. That's true both
for programming interfaces and user interfaces. This means I can
let the system do its job and get out of my way without having to
think about it as much as I do elsewhere.

You're also engaging in all sorts of poor logic in the "No True
Scotsman" family in order to try and exclude folks like Coraid
who're really excellent counter-examples to your claims: they
use Plan 9 not for (the benefit of) Plan 9, but because it allows them
to build products (for other people who likely have no idea Plan 9
is involved) easier.

If Acme (or Plan 9 generally) don't fit your style well, that's fine. If
the interfaces don't have the same beneficial effects for you as they
do for me, that's fine (academically, I might speculate on why).
Feel free not to use it. But to imply that people who are actually
using the system productively are either delusional or just don't
exist is highly insulting.

Anthony


Skip Tavakkolian

unread,
Aug 19, 2008, 11:15:00 PM8/19/08
to
> Just stay away from Acme if you aren't stuck with Plan 9.

should be "Just stay away from Acme if you aren't lucky enough to be
stuck with Plan 9".


Skip Tavakkolian

unread,
Aug 19, 2008, 11:32:56 PM8/19/08
to
> No, you justify your salary, dear Sir. I honestly respect you for having
> written the nemo book--you're nemo after all. That, however, won't change
> my stance on Plan 9 and the 9people.

as i suspected, you're here for therapy.

> You have nothing else but "researching" OS's and "submitting" papers.
> That "justifies" your 9life.

i can see you're bitter.

> Others, like me, have some "petty" work to do. Like knowing which character
> on which line they're editing or controlling how long their lines of text
> get, _without_ resorting to acrobatics.

and how does it make you feel when you know others are performing acrobatics?


andrey mirtchovski

unread,
Aug 19, 2008, 11:33:11 PM8/19/08
to
>> Ms. Discordia, if you don't like it here why do you stay?
>
> therapy?

here is the scary.devil.monastery of old systems programmers, after all. :)

Bruce Ellis

unread,
Aug 19, 2008, 11:34:14 PM8/19/08
to
When in doubt say something's shitty and try somother OS. You'll be back.

Others have tried and failed with your strategy.

brucee

Skip Tavakkolian

unread,
Aug 19, 2008, 11:34:49 PM8/19/08
to

ge...@plan9.bell-labs.com

unread,
Aug 19, 2008, 11:37:17 PM8/19/08
to
Don't believe everything you read on Wikipedia.


Pietro Gagliardi

unread,
Aug 19, 2008, 11:46:15 PM8/19/08
to
Geoff! Why not let Eris read your paper on Why Plan 9 Matters?


Bruce Ellis

unread,
Aug 19, 2008, 11:51:56 PM8/19/08
to
Pietro why don't you shut up? You annoy my dog.

brucee

Pietro Gagliardi

unread,
Aug 19, 2008, 11:56:22 PM8/19/08
to
Just a few other bits of relevance to the original topic:

On Aug 19, 2008, at 11:52 AM, Wendell xe wrote:
> 07. Automatic insertion of spaces for tabs

style(6) says not to convert tabs to spaces.

> 11. Bookmarks
If you know what text the bookmark will point to, make a comment on
the line above it:
/* C comment */
.\" troff comment
# rc/awk comment
Set the comment to the text of the bookmark. Then, search for the text
of the bookmark with the appropriate comment delimiters. Easy enough.

> 16. HTML tag matching
An awk program can do this. The idea is to interpret tags as they come
in the form of a stack:
code stack
<html> html
<head> head
html
<title> title
head
html
</b> title error: closing wrong tag
You can also check to see if tags make sense or bad tags are nested.
For example, don't see <body><body></body></body> as normal, nor
<title><b></b></title>.


Bruce Ellis

unread,
Aug 19, 2008, 11:59:11 PM8/19/08
to
We've seen that, and go to band practice. Tell us all about. Just
keep up the therapy and the medication.

brucee

sqweek

unread,
Aug 20, 2008, 1:06:14 AM8/20/08
to
On Wed, Aug 20, 2008 at 9:39 AM, Eris Discordia
<eris.di...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Steve Simon's trademark character, I presume, was generated by [Alt]+0153

Wow. Does memorising codepoints fall under your job description aswell?

> $ curl gopher://tokyo.ac.jp/a/b/r.tokyo.jpg
> $ ifconfig cellnetif num "555 555 5555"

ifconfig: only root can do that

> $ mount -t motofs /dev/cellnetif /mnt/cell

mount: only root can do that

> $ cp ./r.tokyo.jpg /mnt/cell/

cp: /mnt/cell: permission denied
-sqweek

Eris Discordia

unread,
Aug 20, 2008, 3:15:11 AM8/20/08
to
Been there, done that.

--On Tuesday, August 19, 2008 10:00 PM -0400 Pietro Gagliardi

bb

unread,
Aug 20, 2008, 3:37:11 AM8/20/08
to
Eris Discordia schrieb:
"Unspeakable horrors from outer space paralyze the living and resurrect
the dead"

Isn`t that the manifesto of Plan 9?

BB

Steve Simon

unread,
Aug 20, 2008, 4:03:54 AM8/20/08
to
> 1. Maintaining a Plan 9 system?
> 2. Programming a Plan 9 system?
> 3. Researching a Plan 9 system?
> 4. Or you got some job other than jobs created _around_ Plan 9 and you use
> Plan 9?

None of the above, I write embedded code, my employer has a clear enough vision
to allow me to use whatever OS I like, provided I get the job in hand done,
which I clearly do.

I'am afraid I am not willing to discuss the details of my job with you,
however I find writing code using plan9 and the plan9 environment makes my
life much easier and allows me to get my job done; present chatter excepted.

>Do me a favor. Fire up your beloved upas, use mail, and relay one email
> through upas/smtpd to smtp.gmail.com:587 with the words "שָׁלוֹם
> עֲלֵיכֶם" (Hebrew, Shalom aleichem) or "سلام علیکم"
> (Arabic, Salam-on alaikom) to my address.

I'am not sure which test you wanted to perform, but your email arrived
here OK (Via plan9's smtpd and upas/fs), the Hebrew appears intact though
I don't speak the language so I cannot tell if it is correct. I have quoted
it back to you to see if it passes the return path OK.

I would love to discuss more, but I have work to do (using plan9, but not
on plan9).

-Steve

Steve Simon

unread,
Aug 20, 2008, 4:13:34 AM8/20/08
to
> Steve Simon's trademark character, I presume, was generated by
> [Alt]+0153--you call [Alt] an "Option" key, right?

nope, Alt,T,M

> Well below 255, it's
> just extended/8-bit ASCII. Not right-to-left, not even out of ISO 8859. You
> could generate that character even on MS-DOS.

I don't get this, ™ is the unicode character 2122, not ASCII. I agree it could be
generated on a MS-DOS pretty much any byte sequence could be, but I doubt even
DOS 6.22 had unicode support, so you would have to translate it to a code page
reprisentation and load the correct fonts.

-Steve

Eris Discordia

unread,
Aug 20, 2008, 4:34:51 AM8/20/08
to
"Thank you."

--On Tuesday, August 19, 2008 11:13 PM -0300 Iruata Souza
<iru....@gmail.com> wrote:

> eris, I agree, thanks.
>
> iru
>

Eris Discordia

unread,
Aug 20, 2008, 4:51:42 AM8/20/08
to
Enlighten me, then. Revealing a date of commencement won't comprise a
breach of non-disclosure, would it?

--On Tuesday, August 19, 2008 11:34 PM -0400 ge...@plan9.bell-labs.com
wrote:

Eris Discordia

unread,
Aug 20, 2008, 4:06:05 AM8/20/08
to Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs
Did your language training involve being taught the difference between a
work/task and a job/profession?

Eris Discordia

unread,
Aug 20, 2008, 4:31:22 AM8/20/08
to Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs
> therapy?

_Intense_ therapy.

--On Tuesday, August 19, 2008 8:12 PM -0700 Skip Tavakkolian

Eris Discordia

unread,
Aug 20, 2008, 4:41:20 AM8/20/08
to Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs
> as i suspected, you're here for therapy.

_Intense_ therapy.

> i can see you're bitter.

Not very much. The "researching" and "submitting" and hoyvin' mayvin' is
going to be my bane, too. In a different field. Namely, differential
geometry. More specifically, Finsler geometry. To be exact, finding of
model spaces with constant positive flag curvature. Satisfied?

> and how does it make you feel when you know others are performing
> acrobatics?

Sorry... for them. When you can Get A Job Done (tm) with a finger stroke
you shouldn't be moving an arm. That's squandering.

--On Tuesday, August 19, 2008 8:26 PM -0700 Skip Tavakkolian

Eris Discordia

unread,
Aug 20, 2008, 4:33:14 AM8/20/08
to Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs
> should be "Just stay away from Acme if you aren't lucky enough to be
> stuck with Plan 9".

Could be. Only _luck_ could make you that miserable; reason does a better
job. Also, you could be a little funnier.

--On Tuesday, August 19, 2008 8:11 PM -0700 Skip Tavakkolian

Eris Discordia

unread,
Aug 20, 2008, 4:04:10 AM8/20/08
to Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs
> No, that's not the UNIX philosophy. That's the X/Linux/GNU philosophy. Go
> read "Program Design in the UNIX Environment" by Kernighan and Pike to
> see what I mean.

Get educated. Don't you even know where X came from?

Just a funny idea: have you noticed that the "Kernighan, Pike, Ritchie,
Thomspon" quartet always lacks two legs? Am I right on this one? There is
K&R, K&P, and P&T. Have yet to see P&R, is there one?

> In Plan 9, it's Alt t m, as three individual keystrokes. See keyboard(6)
> to find out what your system would see as Alt. You don't need to keep
> the Alt held down. Now send yourself an email with Alt f a (the for all
> character) and Alt * P (uppercase pi)

How about going back to four buckey bits, hacker? For your information, Pi
is within ISO 8859, 8859-7 to be precise. Now you do one thing: enter a
daleth, put one rafe above it--i.e. "דֿ"--, and tell me the result.

I do Windows. When I need to type in another language--and I often need
that for three languages--I press [Alt]+[Shift] and I get the keyboard
layout for that language. The right scan codes go to the right characters
codes which in turn go to the right glyphs for every major alphabet/script
on Earth, including right-to-left scripts.

When I need a Unicode character out of the ordinary (like this one, "㊪")
I press [Alt] and hold it, press [+] on numeric keypad once, then type in
the hexadecimal code for that character. "Any" two-byte Unicode character.
I learn the code out of Character Map from which I can get the character
even more easily.

http://www.fileformat.info/tip/microsoft/enter_unicode.htm

> Impressive. Someone learned something from us after all. (1985 -- when
> did curl come out?)

"Us?" What is 1985? Your year of birth or Plan 9's or what?

cURL's author didn't need to learn from "you"--whoever your "you"
denotes--to do a simple job.

Here's its history: http://curl.haxx.se/docs/history.html.

It began in 1997. Gopher support was removed soon after because Gopher is a
dead (or dying?)protocol.

> It would be about 75% shorter. And you can't just use the system calls.
> libc is built around subroutines. In all, Rob Pike got connected to an IP
> address in 2 lines of code compared to ~20 for sockets. ("The Good, The
> Bad, and The Ugly")

When and where did Rob Pike do it? Didn't he incidentally leverage two (or
more) additional abstraction layers over the network stack and the socket
abstraction to achieve that?

I can "get connected to an IP address"--overlooking your glaring ignorance
about the fact that on IP (Internet Protocol) machines "connect" to
_endpoints_ not "IP addresses"--in a one liner on Microsoft .NET framework.
Nevertheless, that doesn't make .NET framework my platform of choice for
programming. Boast it when you can _do_ it. Whatever I tell you I _can_ do,
I _can_ do. Whatever I _can't_ do, I keep to myself.

> No comment.

"Thank you, again."

--On Tuesday, August 19, 2008 10:08 PM -0400 Pietro Gagliardi
<piet...@mac.com> wrote:

> On Aug 19, 2008, at 9:39 PM, Eris Discordia wrote:
>
>>> No, that's not what I said. I said that Plan 9 obeys the UNIX
>>> philosophy,
>>> not that it was UNIX. GNU obeys this philosophy (up to the point of
>>> where
>>> to draw the lines on the size of tools). And to some extent, Windows
>>> (Windows Movie Maker doesn't call up another computer now, does it?)
>>
>> I guess "the UNIX philosophy"--whatever that vague phrase is
>> supposed to mean--contains "the X philosophy." The core dictum goes:
>> "mechanism, not policy." That is, they give you the "femur," you
>> determine its use. Russ Cox knows this better; he's the one at the
>> MIT. "The Plan 9 philosophy" goes as far as telling you to "not ask
>> for a ruler" in your text editor (ruler in vi := a pair of numbers;
>> column, row).
>
> No, that's not the UNIX philosophy. That's the X/Linux/GNU philosophy. Go
> read "Program Design in the UNIX Environment" by Kernighan and Pike to
> see what I mean.
>
>>
>>
>>> Mac, and I use OS X Mail (so I can get my hands on IMAP's folder
>>> system).

>>> How about the fact that Simon was able to give you a trademark
>>> symbol? Do


>>> yourself a favor: YOU test it. Look in /lib/keyboard for some
>>> characters
>>> and send them here. If they come back as sent, you've proven my
>>> point.
>>> Otherwise, you found a bug.
>>
>> Plan 9 is not _my_ pet OS. 9people, and you who are too young to be
>> a 9person, are taking pride in "UTF-8." That's been the gesture for
>> a over a decade. Now, it's old, it's insignificant, and Plan 9
>> doesn't even deliver. Anyway, _you_ made a claim. You have to prove
>> it. I don't even run Plan 9 anymore. Gave it up.
>>

>> Steve Simon's trademark character, I presume, was generated by [Alt]

>> +0153--you call [Alt] an "Option" key, right? Well below 255, it's


>> just extended/8-bit ASCII. Not right-to-left, not even out of ISO
>> 8859. You could generate that character even on MS-DOS.
>>

>> Though, his email's header says the charset if UTF-8. No big deal.
>
> In Plan 9, it's Alt t m, as three individual keystrokes. See keyboard(6)
> to find out what your system would see as Alt. You don't need to keep
> the Alt held down. Now send yourself an email with Alt f a (the for all
> character) and Alt * P (uppercase pi)
>
>>
>>
>>> gopherfs -m/n/gopher tokyo.ac.jp # Demonstration; don't try this
>>> motorola -m/n/cell -M 'RAZR V3' 555 555 5555
>>> cp /n/gopher/a/b/r.tokyo.jpg /n/cell/pictures/r.tokyo.jpg
>>
>> Zing! Who wrote the fs behind /n/cell? You got Morotola to write it
>> for you?
>>

>> $ curl gopher://tokyo.ac.jp/a/b/r.tokyo.jpg
>> $ ifconfig cellnetif num "555 555 5555"

>> $ mount -t motofs /dev/cellnetif /mnt/cell

Eris Discordia

unread,
Aug 20, 2008, 4:29:54 AM8/20/08
to Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs
> Oh, I'm waiting for a phone call before bed. What the hell.

Sleep tight. Every night.

> My job includes some programming, some document writing, lots of reading.

Programming _for_ Plan 9? Document writing _for_ Plan 9? Reading _about_
Plan 9?

I'm, of course, benignly assuming you create "usable" programs and
documents. And read "useful" things. Couldn't Windows do the job? Or
FreeBSD? Or what-have-you Linux? And better, easier?

> I've never been employed to count columns or fold lines.

Neither have I. You _still_ haven't figured out the difference between a
work/task and a job/profession?

> interface encourages good mental habits that help me produce
> quality stuff.

Could your "quality" by any chance be _quantified_?

> I find the applications and interfaces in Plan 9 to be far more
> consistent and convenient than in other systems. That's true both
> for programming interfaces and user interfaces. This means I can
> let the system do its job and get out of my way without having to
> think about it as much as I do elsewhere.

Rationale? Examples? Comparison? Why would anyone else care how _you_ find
it? Tell me how _I_ can do it. Tell _them_ how they can do it.

> do for me, that's fine (academically, I might speculate on why).

Academically, speculate on _what_ exactly Plan 9 does for you. Also, share
your speculations.

> using the system productively are either delusional or just don't
> exist is highly insulting.

I don't remember having called anyone "delusional" or "non-existent."

The key here is that every new person who comes to 9fans and asks a few
questions about very mundane things available elsewhere gets pathologically
flamed about why "those darned things" shouldn't exist and how Plan 9 is so
great by "not having them" and that they should go "do it themselves" if
it's out of the 9people's narrow scopes/niches/specialization. _That's_
insulting, especially from a group who claim to offer--yes, when it's up
for grabs and web sites say cool things about it it's an offer--a
"complete" OS.

Why not put one these flames at a place visible from
http://plan9.bell-labs.com/plan9/?

Just look at the sort of "solutions" this thread's originator has received.
They've been told to use awk for matching HTML tags. Or to type "Edit ="
and then do the acrobatics whenever they need to know their position in
code--oh, and no "columns."

Eris Discordia

unread,
Aug 20, 2008, 5:12:57 AM8/20/08