Request For Proposal
Kim Cheung
As you know, currently there is NO DVD/Video support in OS/2. With the
upcoming eComStation client - which is a new client based on WSeB and the IBM
Convenence Pack, there will be support for DVD/UDF, along with a number of
other device driver area improvements, I have been told that it will be a lot
more feasible than before to implement DVD/Video support. I recall in the
e-zine article http://www.os2ezine.com/v5n1/dvd.html, Robert Basler listed
the difficulties we will be facing, along with what the Linux folks have been
doing at http://www.linuxvideo.org.
Now, one OS/2 customer told me that IBM quoted them a price tag of 1 million
dollar for implementing DVD/Video in OS/2 and that's non-exclusive. I
certainly hope that it won't be at that level (no way we can afford it). I
approached another well known OS/2 multi-media company and apparently they
deem it to be a little "too big" for them as well.
So, is it that difficult? I like to know if there are programmers out there
that can pull this off. We can provide some seed funding (hopefully
eComStation sells well) to handle the lic. and legal issue to make sure that
this is done legally and properly. Pass that, we are open to suggestions.
I don't believe funding the entire project will be possible (not at a price
tag of 1 million dollar anyway) but we are certainly interested on a royalty
arrangement - or if you want to do it as a volunteer project, we will donate
certain amount to a charity organization you so designate: when the code is
delievered, of course.
I have started a forum at egroup to discuss this. Please drop by
http://www.egroups/group/eComStation_Multimedia.
Regards
Jack Troughton
Kim:
It's the licensing fees for the CSS encryption that's the killer. It's
controlled by the MPIA (Motion Picture Industry Association) in the
US. That's the group that got a 16 yr old Finnish programmer arrested
for a clean room reverse engineering of their encryption scheme.
You can find more details at http://www.opendvd.org. There is
currently a huge court case on the go about this; I suspect the 'too
big' aspect of the project has more to do with exorbitant licensing
fees/legal risks and costs than the actual development; as the
aforementioned Finn said, 'cracking the encryption was ridiculously
easy.' CSS/Zoning is about exploiting/dividing the market for maximum
profitability. Unfortunately, it doesn't leave a lot of room for
profits for the actual implementers of the system, if it's to be a
legal implementation.
--
----------------------------------------------------------
* Jack Troughton jake at jakesplace.dhs.org *
* http://jakesplace.dhs.org ftp://jakesplace.dhs.org *
* Montréal PQ Canada news://jakesplace.dhs.org *
----------------------------------------------------------
Charles Hunter
>On Tue, 18 Jul 2000 15:22:30, "Kim Cheung"
><kimwaicSpam...@deltanet.com> wrote:
>It's the licensing fees for the CSS encryption that's the killer. It's
>controlled by the MPIA (Motion Picture Industry Association) in the
>US. That's the group that got a 16 yr old Finnish programmer arrested
>for a clean room reverse engineering of their encryption scheme.
Some corrections:
That's MPAA ( Motion Picture Association of America http://www.mpaa.org )
but that not is who's sueing primarily. It's the DVD CCA
( http://www.dvdcca.org )
And they're losing the lawsuit :)
>You can find more details at http://www.opendvd.org. There is
>currently a huge court case on the go about this; I suspect the 'too
>big' aspect of the project has more to do with exorbitant licensing
>fees/legal risks and costs than the actual development; as the
>aforementioned Finn said, 'cracking the encryption was ridiculously
>easy.' CSS/Zoning is about exploiting/dividing the market for maximum
>profitability. Unfortunately, it doesn't leave a lot of room for
>legal implementation.
( accidently snipped some of that )
Yes, the source code is on the net and the algorithm is easily available.
One might find not find it here. in fact there's no reason whatsoever
to ever bother to chek this URL.
http://people.a2000.nl/mwielaar/dvd-css/csspaper/css.html
This is certainly not source code either. Don't waste your
time going here.
http://www.lemuria.org/DeCSS/crypto.gq.nu/CSSscramble.txt
http://www.lemuria.org/DeCSS/crypto.gq.nu/keyrec.txt
http://www.lemuria.org/DeCSS/crypto.gq.nu/unhash.txt
also, why reinvent the wheel? Once you have UDF access, then someone
should port the LiViD project, or OMS to OS/2
The source is available via CVS.
Scitech Drivers, UDF support and this source code, would get you
fullscreen DVD as easy as pie. ( granted, it wouldn't get you hardware
decoding, but ... )
Charles
--
Charles R. Hunter
Computer Systems Engineer Physics Computer Network
Purdue University c...@physics.purdue.edu
Kim Cheung
>On Tue, 18 Jul 2000 15:22:30, "Kim Cheung"
><kimwaicSpam...@deltanet.com> wrote:
>
>It's the licensing fees for the CSS encryption that's the killer. It's
>controlled by the MPIA (Motion Picture Industry Association) in the
>US. That's the group that got a 16 yr old Finnish programmer arrested
>for a clean room reverse engineering of their encryption scheme.
>
>You can find more details at http://www.opendvd.org. There is
>currently a huge court case on the go about this; I suspect the 'too
>big' aspect of the project has more to do with exorbitant licensing
>fees/legal risks and costs than the actual development; as the
>aforementioned Finn said, 'cracking the encryption was ridiculously
>easy.' CSS/Zoning is about exploiting/dividing the market for maximum
>profitability. Unfortunately, it doesn't leave a lot of room for
>profits for the actual implementers of the system, if it's to be a
>legal implementation.
>
>--
>----------------------------------------------------------
>* Jack Troughton jake at jakesplace.dhs.org *
>* http://jakesplace.dhs.org ftp://jakesplace.dhs.org *
>* Montr‚al PQ Canada news://jakesplace.dhs.org *
>----------------------------------------------------------
>
I realize that. But 1 million dollar is one issue. $50,000 is a
different issue. That's why I like people to discuss about it.
Kim Cheung
>If I can lend a hand in some way, please let me know.
>
>Keith Cotroneo
>cotr...@stny.rr.com
>Dragen FTP for os/2 http://cotroneo.dyndns.org
I will count you in.
cotr...@stny.rr.com
Well, you certainly have perked things up in the newsgroups
with eComStation. Just want to say that I am pulling for
you. Your business approach sounds reasonable and I
think you have a good shot to make it work. Your focus
on the network capabilities is essential in my view. The
fact that you have chosen os/2 as the backbone is
wonderful.
Jack Troughton
wrote:
>This is certainly not source code either. Don't waste your
>time going here.
>
>http://www.lemuria.org/DeCSS/crypto.gq.nu/CSSscramble.txt
>http://www.lemuria.org/DeCSS/crypto.gq.nu/keyrec.txt
>http://www.lemuria.org/DeCSS/crypto.gq.nu/unhash.txt
IANAP, but I know someone who plays one on TV:)
Actually, your post reminded me of my friend Wes Garland, from
Kingston, Ontario. He told me about his first year assembly
assignment, which was to get a coke out of a coke machine. He was very
proud of it; he turned it into a text adventure (yoho anyone?;)
involving the coke machine in the basement of the compsci building at
Queen's. Down the hall is the exam room for the comp dept.; if you
tried to go there the program told you "you don't want to go that
way." I'm sure you can imagine the rest:)
Thanks for the pointers; I'll go take a look! Not that I'll understand
most (if any) of what I'm seeing, but what the hell: because it's
there.
--
----------------------------------------------------------
* Jack Troughton jake at jakesplace.dhs.org *
* http://jakesplace.dhs.org ftp://jakesplace.dhs.org *
* Montréal PQ Canada news://jakesplace.dhs.org *
----------------------------------------------------------
Alex Taylor
>Actually, your post reminded me of my friend Wes Garland, from
>Kingston, Ontario. He told me about his first year assembly
>assignment, which was to get a coke out of a coke machine. He was very
>proud of it; he turned it into a text adventure (yoho anyone?;)
>involving the coke machine in the basement of the compsci building at
>Queen's. Down the hall is the exam room for the comp dept.; if you
>tried to go there the program told you "you don't want to go that
>way." I'm sure you can imagine the rest:)
...you know Wes too? Talk about a small world...
--
--------------------------
Alex Taylor
al...@eddie.cis.uoguelph.ca
--------------------------
Alex Taylor
<kimwaicSpam...@deltanet.com> wrote:
>As you know, currently there is NO DVD/Video support in OS/2. With the
>upcoming eComStation client - which is a new client based on WSeB and the IBM
>Convenence Pack, there will be support for DVD/UDF, along with a number of
>other device driver area improvements, I have been told that it will be a lot
>more feasible than before to implement DVD/Video support. I recall in the
>e-zine article http://www.os2ezine.com/v5n1/dvd.html, Robert Basler listed
>the difficulties we will be facing, along with what the Linux folks have been
>doing at http://www.linuxvideo.org.
These links you give above provide some very nice information about that's
necessary.
The thing is, none of it looks particularly difficult.
I must confess, I don't quite see the point in forking out huge sums of
money when it would be far simpler and more practical to simply port the
Livid project. As the os2ezine link describes.
People go on about 'a legal implementation'. Remember: DeCSS and LiViD
are _not_ illegal. Not even in the U.S., not according to any court.
The lawsuit is still in progress, and the facts are heavily stacked
against the DVD-CCA and MPAA. Even if they weren't... innocent until
proven guilty, and all that.
In fact, I'm Canadian, so this silly DMCA (on which the lawsuit is based)
doesn't have any relevance to me... Unfortunately, I'm not qualified to
do software porting of this nature. Not yet, anyway. (I'm trying to
learn.) But the legal fuss over DeCSS is only applicable to certain
countries; it's hardly a universal problem.
On the other hand, you do have my support in this endeavour. Anything
that can bring full DVD support to OS/2 in a timely and practical manner
sounds good to me.
Jack Troughton
wrote:
>On Wed, 19 Jul 2000 02:52:11 GMT, Jack Troughton <jack.tr...@nospam.videotron.ca> wrote:
>>Actually, your post reminded me of my friend Wes Garland, from
>>Kingston, Ontario. He told me about his first year assembly
>>assignment, which was to get a coke out of a coke machine. He was very
>>proud of it; he turned it into a text adventure (yoho anyone?;)
>>involving the coke machine in the basement of the compsci building at
>>Queen's. Down the hall is the exam room for the comp dept.; if you
>>tried to go there the program told you "you don't want to go that
>>way." I'm sure you can imagine the rest:)
>
>....you know Wes too? Talk about a small world...
I worked with him for a year at Canada Computer and Electronics on
Princess St. in Kingston. I've done a lot of drinking with him at The
Brass on the corner of Princess and Division too:).
He's a great guy; I have so much respect for him it's unbelievable.
Actually, that reminds me that I should give him a call and let him
know that we're (ie- my girlfriend and I) are expecting again...
James Stotz
top.
But, I've noticed that there are Hardware (PCI) DVD decoder cards avaliable.
Such as one from Sigma Designs (??). Now, if it does the decoding, when you buy
it don't you buy a license for DVD? Then, all that you would have to do is write
the driver for the card (maybe with the manufacturer's help). The UDF allows you
to read the DVD. Isn't this all somebody needs?
Please feel free to punch holes in this argument.
Cheers,
James Stotz
Physics, SFU
Kim Cheung wrote:
> Dear fellow programmers:
>
> As you know, currently there is NO DVD/Video support in OS/2. With the
> upcoming eComStation client - which is a new client based on WSeB and the IBM
> Convenence Pack, there will be support for DVD/UDF, along with a number of
> other device driver area improvements, I have been told that it will be a lot
> more feasible than before to implement DVD/Video support. I recall in the
> e-zine article http://www.os2ezine.com/v5n1/dvd.html, Robert Basler listed
> the difficulties we will be facing, along with what the Linux folks have been
> doing at http://www.linuxvideo.org.
>
Kim Cheung
www.egroups/group/eComStation_Multimedia. I set it up as an open forum so
you don't need to register with eGroup as a member if you don't want to.
This way, I can collect all the important ideas.
Thanks.
J. Robinson
wrote:
On this certain thread of writing DVD software, and such, there is
also an interesting sort've spin-off idea. As Linux becomes more and
more popular (hopefully) more and more companies get a bit of a clue.
A start to this idea can be found at http://opensource.creative.com/
where you can get the source-code/info/etc. for some nice things such
as the SBLive! soundcard, the AWE32/64 cards, and the Dxr2 DVD decoder
cards.
Sure, maybe the selection is sort've limited right now in what is
available, but this can always change. All the OpenSource work done
in Linux can most certainly benefit OS/2 (eCS) users... just take a
look at what a great job was done creating a full-duplexing driver for
the SBLive! by porting the existing Linux source-code.
There seems to be very little reason we cannot have the same equipment
supported in Linux (open source) drivers, as long as we have folks
that are able to deconstruct the code and fit it into OS/2 (eCS)'s
framework.
Sure, some might argue that some of that hardware is a bit dated (like
the Dxr2), but on the other hand... what else do we have as an option?
These open source drivers could then be bundled and distributed with a
product (as long as it complied with the GPL, which basically means
you have to have the source available to the public, which shouldn't
be that tough a task, right!?). On that note, one could also include
a lot of dev.-tools with a product too, such as gcc... part of what
may make more coders pop up are readily available tools; 'cause you
have to admit right now, to get a fully useful (GNU-based) programming
environment, one has to download an awful lot of files.
But I digress, and I evangelise. But I think I had a point somewhere
along the way.
Jeff
----------------
Whatza JamochaMUD? http://jamochamud.anecho.mb.ca
Or other stuff: http://www.anecho.mb.ca/~jeffnik
Kim Cheung
>On Sun, 19 Jul 3900 09:52:20, James Stotz <jst...@canoemail.com>
>wrote:
>
<snip>
>
>These open source drivers could then be bundled and distributed with a
>product (as long as it complied with the GPL, which basically means
>you have to have the source available to the public, which shouldn't
>be that tough a task, right!?). On that note, one could also include
>a lot of dev.-tools with a product too, such as gcc... part of what
>may make more coders pop up are readily available tools; 'cause you
>have to admit right now, to get a fully useful (GNU-based) programming
>environment, one has to download an awful lot of files.
>
>But I digress, and I evangelise. But I think I had a point somewhere
>along the way.
>
>Jeff
>
Yes, we are indeed thinking about a eCS Programing Bench CD and that would be
the kind of thing to put on their. The trouble is that I don't get out
there much in the Linuxland and get to know the wealth of available
resources. We are working with somebody that are much more knowledgable
that can tell what to include. We don't want to just "dump" a bunch of
stuff on a CD and ship it out.
Alex Taylor
>>>Actually, your post reminded me of my friend Wes Garland, from
>>>Kingston, Ontario. He told me about his first year assembly
>>
>
>I worked with him for a year at Canada Computer and Electronics on
>Princess St. in Kingston. I've done a lot of drinking with him at The
>Brass on the corner of Princess and Division too:).
I went to high school with him... At least, I think he was a year or two
ahead of me...
>He's a great guy; I have so much respect for him it's unbelievable.
>Actually, that reminds me that I should give him a call and let him
>know that we're (ie- my girlfriend and I) are expecting again...
Oh, great news!
He still in the ISP business?
Alex Taylor
>I do not know a lot about this, so I'm going to claim ignorance right off
>the top.
>
>But, I've noticed that there are Hardware (PCI) DVD decoder cards
>avaliable. Such as one from Sigma Designs (??). Now, if it does the
>decoding, when you buy it don't you buy a license for DVD? Then, all
>that you would have to do is write the driver for the card (maybe with
>the manufacturer's help). The UDF allows you to read the DVD. Isn't
>this all somebody needs?
Well, it depends on the card.
The Sigma card (RealMagic Hollywood+ ?) is a hardware MPEG-2 decoder.
Writing a driver for it would eliminate the need to implement MPEG-2
decoding in software.
However, you _still_ need to write the code to unlock the drive, decode
the CSS-encrypted stream, probably decode the AC3 audio, and play the
movie. The hardware doesn't do any of that.
Some cards do, OTOH. The Creative DxR2 does some of it, for instance,
which is why they were able to open-source the driver.
Sigma will not open-source their driver, because it includes the CSS
decryption in software. Therefore their NDA with DVD-CCS forbids them
from doing it. (The same thing applies to the Creative DxR3, which is
the same card.)