More IBM proof that OS/2 is DEAD!
gme...@ibm.net
1) IBM releases VisualAge for Java for OS/2
2) IBM releases Java 1.1.1 for OS/2
3) IBM releases VisualAge for Smalltalk V4.01 for OS/2
4) IBM releases DB2 Universal Data Base v 5 for OS/2
5) IBM releases VisualAge PL/I v 2.0 for OS/2
6) Increased activities at IBM's Testcase site an IBM not so secret place to leak out
almost completed software, but which cannot still be called BETA :)
7) A new NetScape/2 with java 1.1.1 support shows up at Hobbes
8 Lotus lets out Smart Suite for Warp4 beta
9) IBM releases Fix Pack 5 for OS/2
10) IBM "leaks out" TCP-IP 4.1 at Testcase "by accident"
11) IBM releases the fastest Java available on X86: v 1.1.4 FOR OS/2
All of these since July 1997. Clearer than that.. not even water!
What keeps the article published in that ZD gutter site from being a complete lie is
that little "?" at the end of the headline, but the PC Winnies didn't even notice
that and thus swallowed the desinformation published in that ZD latrine. No wonder
they use Windoze!
G. Mella
to e-mail remove the X from the e-mail address
Marcus Woletz
Hello,
but you should see that Atkins has nothing positive said about the
desktop-Versions of OS/2. Yes, a entirely new Server, new WOD, but
only "additions" to the desktop system. That sounds to me there
would never be a "real" update to the desktop version.
Or have I something understood wrong??
ciao,
Marcus
Steve Campisano
I couldn't have said it better.
Patients .... All good things come to those who wait.
On Thu, 27 Nov 1997 07:36:34, gme...@ibm.net wrote:
> 1) IBM releases VisualAge for Java for OS/2
> 2) IBM releases Java 1.1.1 for OS/2
> 3) IBM releases VisualAge for Smalltalk V4.01 for OS/2
> 4) IBM releases DB2 Universal Data Base v 5 for OS/2
> 5) IBM releases VisualAge PL/I v 2.0 for OS/2
> 6) Increased activities at IBM's Testcase site an IBM not so secret place to leak out
> almost completed software, but which cannot still be called BETA :)
> 7) A new NetScape/2 with java 1.1.1 support shows up at Hobbes
> 8 Lotus lets out Smart Suite for Warp4 beta
> 9) IBM releases Fix Pack 5 for OS/2
> 10) IBM "leaks out" TCP-IP 4.1 at Testcase "by accident"
> 11) IBM releases the fastest Java available on X86: v 1.1.4 FOR OS/2
>
> All of these since July 1997. Clearer than that.. not even water!
>
> What keeps the article published in that ZD gutter site from being a complete lie is
> that little "?" at the end of the headline, but the PC Winnies didn't even notice
> that and thus swallowed the desinformation published in that ZD latrine. No wonder
> they use Windoze!
>
> G. Mella
> to e-mail remove the X from the e-mail address
"That Guy" Steve Campisano
tha...@iag.net
camp...@ems.att.com
www.iag.net/~thatguy
David H. McCoy
In article <347d2...@news3.ibm.net>, gme...@ibm.net says...
> 1) IBM releases VisualAge for Java for OS/2
> 2) IBM releases Java 1.1.1 for OS/2
> 3) IBM releases VisualAge for Smalltalk V4.01 for OS/2
> 4) IBM releases DB2 Universal Data Base v 5 for OS/2
> 5) IBM releases VisualAge PL/I v 2.0 for OS/2
> 6) Increased activities at IBM's Testcase site an IBM not so secret place to leak out
> almost completed software, but which cannot still be called BETA :)
> 7) A new NetScape/2 with java 1.1.1 support shows up at Hobbes
> 8 Lotus lets out Smart Suite for Warp4 beta
> 9) IBM releases Fix Pack 5 for OS/2
> 10) IBM "leaks out" TCP-IP 4.1 at Testcase "by accident"
> 11) IBM releases the fastest Java available on X86: v 1.1.4 FOR OS/2
>
> All of these since July 1997. Clearer than that.. not even water!
>
> What keeps the article published in that ZD gutter site from being a complete lie is
> that little "?" at the end of the headline, but the PC Winnies didn't even notice
> that and thus swallowed the desinformation published in that ZD latrine. No wonder
> they use Windoze!
>
> G. Mella
> to e-mail remove the X from the e-mail address
>
IBM is porting most if not all of the Visual Age products to NT.
Smartsuite is a beta of a product that has been out a year. Netscape is
old, with the version 4 no where in sight.
Have any of you people worked on a project that was being shutdown,
slowly, but surely. Fixpacks and small enhancement releases are released,
but major annoucments and new features are not.
--
-----------------------------------
David H. McCoy
dmccoy@REMOVE_MEmnsinc.com
-----------------------------------
Arthur Werry
On 27 Nov 1997 16:17:49 GMT, Steve Campisano wrote:
>Patients .... All good things come to those who wait.
I have no PATIENCE for people who confuse PATIENTS for patience.
In fact, if you do it again, I'll make you a patient. <G>
Art
___________________________________
Remove the first 'x' from my no-spam address to email me
joseph
On Thu, 27 Nov 1997, David H. McCoy wrote:
> In article <347d2...@news3.ibm.net>, gme...@ibm.net says...
> > 1) IBM releases VisualAge for Java for OS/2
> > 2) IBM releases Java 1.1.1 for OS/2
> > 3) IBM releases VisualAge for Smalltalk V4.01 for OS/2
> > 4) IBM releases DB2 Universal Data Base v 5 for OS/2
> > 5) IBM releases VisualAge PL/I v 2.0 for OS/2
> > 6) Increased activities at IBM's Testcase site an IBM not so secret place to leak out
> > almost completed software, but which cannot still be called BETA :)
> > 7) A new NetScape/2 with java 1.1.1 support shows up at Hobbes
> > 8 Lotus lets out Smart Suite for Warp4 beta
> > 9) IBM releases Fix Pack 5 for OS/2
> > 10) IBM "leaks out" TCP-IP 4.1 at Testcase "by accident"
> > 11) IBM releases the fastest Java available on X86: v 1.1.4 FOR OS/2
> >
> > All of these since July 1997. Clearer than that.. not even water!
> >
> > What keeps the article published in that ZD gutter site from being a complete lie is
> > that little "?" at the end of the headline, but the PC Winnies didn't even notice
> > that and thus swallowed the desinformation published in that ZD latrine. No wonder
> > they use Windoze!
> >
> > G. Mella
> > to e-mail remove the X from the e-mail address
> >
>
> IBM is porting most if not all of the Visual Age products to NT.
And my mom just went to Europe to visit my sister -- I guess I'm not
loved anymore.
IBM's a huge company so why would IBM boycott NT ?
The lesson of Java is that ross platform software is perferred. Learn the
lesson sooner than later.
IBM's providing a testing center with SUN and one of the OSs they are
testing for Java is HP-UX. I guess IBM's abandoning AIX as well as as
OS/2.
> Smartsuite is a beta of a product that has been out a year. Netscape is
> old, with the version 4 no where in sight.
Obviously since SmartSuite was announced IBM's decided to focus LOTUS on
eSuite which is OS/2 enabled and due for standalone OS/2 in 2Q 98. The
SmartSuite project has shipped a public BETA and it still due for release.
They use tha same Win32 codebase and BTW I hear little about any follow
ons to the next windows32 suite from LOTUS.
> Have any of you people worked on a project that was being shutdown,
> slowly, but surely. Fixpacks and small enhancement releases are released,
> but major annoucments and new features are not.
Then IBM's abandoning *all* of their OSs. They fail your loyality test
across the board.
Have you ever heard of Java? The JVM is the new platform and that's where
IBM is pushing their entire market. that is where the apps wil be written
to and that is where the Windows platform is heading. MS, aplple and Be
refuse to admit it's happening.
FYI: OS/2 was the first non-reference platform to get JDK 1.1.4. OS/2
had VA Java at the same time NT. IBM claims to have the fastest JVM for
x86 systems.
Bill Pridgen
On Thu, 27 Nov 1997 16:50:01, dmccoy@REMOVE_MEmnsinc.com (David H.
McCoy) wrote:
> IBM is porting most if not all of the Visual Age products to NT.
> Smartsuite is a beta of a product that has been out a year. Netscape is
> old, with the version 4 no where in sight.
Perhaps you would say that the Smartsuite Beta was released to the
public to tide the stubborn OS/2 users over until they wise up and
"migrate" to NT? We should know before long.
> Have any of you people worked on a project that was being shutdown,
> slowly, but surely. Fixpacks and small enhancement releases are released,
> but major annoucments and new features are not.
Maybe OS/2 is already good enough that all it needs right now are
fixpaks and small enhancement releases. I really can't think of
anything I would like to do that I can't already do, and I'm still
using Warp 3. (A year ago I was planning to switch to Win95, but it
was so bad that I abandoned that idea after a couple of months.)
Let's say the OS/2 "project" is "being shutdown[sic], slowly but
surely." As long as it's being done slowly, we will have plenty of
time to make whatever adjustments to that eventuality we might decide
to make. Hey, we might even like whatever comes next!
--
Bill Pridgen
pri...@texas.net
--
Sent With ProNews/2
Pierre Jelenc
Marcus Woletz <Marcus...@t-online.de> writes:
> but you should see that Atkins has nothing positive said about the
> desktop-Versions of OS/2. Yes, a entirely new Server, new WOD, but
> only "additions" to the desktop system. That sounds to me there
> would never be a "real" update to the desktop version.
> Or have I something understood wrong??
During 1997, IBM enhanced both the OS/2 client and
server products and also created an entirely new
offering, WorkSpace On-Demand.
Work continues equally on existing client and server.
As was stated to
the reporter, IBM will continue to enhance the OS/2
product line during 1998. This involves additions to
both the client and server product, an entirely new
version of OS/2 Warp Server and also an update of
WorkSpace On-Demand.
In *1998*.
Of course the new server will come out first: that's how they've decided
to develop the technology. The client benefits from the developments done
on the server.
Pierre
--
Pierre Jelenc
New York City | Home Office
Beer Guide | Records
http://www.nycbeer.org/ | http://www.web-ho.com/
John Holt
In message
<Pine.SGI.3.96.97112...@earthsystems.monterey.edu> -
joseph <coug...@sea.monterey.edu> writes:
**** stuff deleted pointing out that IBM is doing a lot of NT
development
**** and advancing the position that this means IBM is killing OS/2
**** deletions intended only to conserve resources
:>
:>
:>Then IBM's abandoning *all* of their OSs. They fail your loyality test
:>across the board.
:>
An good observation. Using the argumentation of most of the people
that
say OS/2 is dead, I would need to conclude that MVS is truely dead,
and that
AIX and OS/400 are near death or dead as well.
The best example of past practice is DOS/VSE which IBM tried to kill
over
a 15 year period. OS/2 has remarkedly strong support in IBM compared
to
to the other operating systems as measured by inches of press
releases.
Compared to MVS, OS/2 is a hot house of innovation and development.
What IBM does accomplish with NT development and sales of their
products
in the NT environment is to keep Microsoft from establishing a totally
hostile environment.
//---------------------------------------------------------//
// John Holt //
//---------------------------------------------------------//
tho...@ifa.hawaii.edu
David H. McCoy writes:
> Have any of you people worked on a project that was being shutdown,
> slowly, but surely. Fixpacks and small enhancement releases are released,
> but major annoucments and new features are not.
Have you ever worked on a project that has millions of Fortune 500
customers around the world?
I gather Java 1.1.4 isn't a new feature or a major announcement to you.
bad...@cow-net.com
In <yuK7NFYce9Hj-pn2-eSmdfj9veDzL@localhost>, on 11/27/97
>Let's say the OS/2 "project" is "being shutdown[sic], slowly but
>surely." As long as it's being done slowly, we will have plenty
>of time to make whatever adjustments to that eventuality we
>might decide to make. Hey, we might even like whatever comes
>next!
Isn't that what the jounalist Zachman (?) said last year, and got
flamed for? I agree with you, btw. The way I read the IBM
"clairifacation", Warp desktop will get enhancements via fixpack
or maybe software choice, but there will not be another version.
--
--------------------------------------------------------
Netchat support Page
http://cud.cow-net.com/badams/index.htm
Barry Adams
Duncan,B.C.,Canada
---
-----------------------------------------------------------
Dennis Peterson
Bill Pridgen wrote:
>
> On Thu, 27 Nov 1997 16:50:01, dmccoy@REMOVE_MEmnsinc.com (David H.
> McCoy) wrote:
>
> > IBM is porting most if not all of the Visual Age products to NT.
> > Smartsuite is a beta of a product that has been out a year. Netscape is
> > old, with the version 4 no where in sight.
>
> Perhaps you would say that the Smartsuite Beta was released to the
> public to tide the stubborn OS/2 users over until they wise up and
> "migrate" to NT? We should know before long.
>
> > slowly, but surely. Fixpacks and small enhancement releases are released,
> > but major annoucments and new features are not.
>
> fixpaks and small enhancement releases. I really can't think of
> anything I would like to do that I can't already do, and I'm still
> using Warp 3. (A year ago I was planning to switch to Win95, but it
> was so bad that I abandoned that idea after a couple of months.)
>
> surely." As long as it's being done slowly, we will have plenty of
> time to make whatever adjustments to that eventuality we might decide
> to make. Hey, we might even like whatever comes next!
>
I would like a file system that allows soft and hard links, one that has
no need for drive letters, and which supports multiple users. Unix does
this quite well. No reason why OS/2 cannot.
dp
Dennis Peterson
tho...@ifa.hawaii.edu wrote:
>
> David H. McCoy writes:
>
> > Have any of you people worked on a project that was being shutdown,
> > slowly, but surely. Fixpacks and small enhancement releases are released,
> > but major annoucments and new features are not.
>
> customers around the world?
>
> I gather Java 1.1.4 isn't a new feature or a major announcement to you.
It also doesn't work very well, inspite of the performance figures.
There is a pretty significant bug in the JIT. I have not been able to
get any RMI code to work at all. It does work fine under Solaris.
dp
boo...@ibm.net
on 11/27/97at 07:29 PM, the Great and Grand Wazir Dennis Peterson
<dpet...@halcyon.com> said:
I would like a file system that allows soft and hard links, one that has
no need for drive letters, and which supports multiple users. Unix does
this quite well. No reason why OS/2 cannot.
You just reminded me: Isn't that the essential design for IBM's db/2
database? Isn't OS/2 already set up that way, excepting for the hardware
constraints? I notice that OS/2 really sees my storage as logical files,
and sees the hardware virtually, separated from direct access to the DASD.
I think.
----------------------------------------------------
Booth Martin
---------------------------------------------------
bad...@cow-net.com
In <65lrg6$7...@news.seed.net.tw>, on 11/28/97
at 07:22 AM, r...@xxxmail.sysnet.net.tw (rj friedman) said:
>»...The way I read the IBM
>»"clairifacation", Warp desktop will get enhancements via fixpack
>»or maybe software choice, but there will not be another version.
>As long has the enhancements keep coming, who cares whether it is
>called `another version'. Semantics don't interest me. Getting
>increased functionality does.
I doubt that this level of support, will be viewed as a strong
commitment to OS2 by IHV's and ISV's. Lets put it this way, if
even the true believers are starting to have doubts, how do you
think the rest of the computing world views IBM's support for OS2?
Dennis Peterson
rj friedman wrote:
>
> In message <347E3A...@halcyon.com> - Dennis Peterson
> <dpet...@halcyon.com> writes:
> Ż
>
> ŻI would like a file system that allows soft and hard links, one that has
> Żno need for drive letters, and which supports multiple users. Unix does
> Żthis quite well. No reason why OS/2 cannot.
>
> Check out the TVFS file system (you can find it on Hobbes). Done by an
> IBMer as EWS (Employee Written Software - free).
>
> Żdp
> ________________________________________________________
>
> [RJ] OS/2 - Live it, or live with it.
> rj friedman Team ABW
> Taipei, Taiwan r...@xxxmail.sysnet.net.tw
>
> To send email - remove the `xxx'
> ________________________________________________________
I've used TVFS for a long time. It approximates the Unix file system in
that it allows for links. This is nice because some programs, gzip.exe,
for example, can be linked to gunzip.exe and you have dual functionality
with only one executable. There are others: grep, egrep, fgrep behave
just like the Unix versions when linked (the program examines argv[0] to
see what it is being called as). The down side is, drive letters remain,
and TVFS runs on top of HPFS and so adds little in the way of security
other than global read-only (nice for my WWW server, by the way).
It is a remarkable product, regardless of its limitations.
dp
jlrowe@iquest.net@holli.com
In <MPG.ee76ec84...@news1.mnsinc.com>, dmccoy@REMOVE_MEmnsinc.com (David H. McCoy) writes:
>IBM is porting most if not all of the Visual Age products to NT.
IBM is porting much of whatever they have to whatever there is,
including Unix [AIX] and Java.
And CICS is available for about 21 platforms.
I'm tempted to ask "What's your point?"
But then, I know.
FUD
>Smartsuite is a beta of a product that has been out a year. Netscape is
>old, with the version 4 no where in sight.
Netscape is hardly old. The magazines are still reviewing it.
Can't be 'old'. Version 4 for OS/2 is in or near beat from what I
hear. My guess is that the OS/2 version will be more bug free than
the Windows version [including IE which is rather buggy].
As for Smartsuite, it is in beta and few problems are being found
with it. Not bad for lady Lotus, who was mesmerized by the Tiger
that wants to eat it.
>
>Have any of you people worked on a project that was being shutdown,
>slowly, but surely. Fixpacks and small enhancement releases are released,
>but major annoucments and new features are not.
Ah, more FUD. Pure and simple FUD.
>
>--
>-----------------------------------
>David H. McCoy
>dmccoy@REMOVE_MEmnsinc.com
>-----------------------------------
Yes folks, if it were only that simple, just type REMOVE_ME after
his name and the FUD level goes down in the world, and it's a
safer place for your kids.
And maybe they will live in a world where there is a company
other than Microsoft.
-=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=-
Jerry L. Rowe - Certified OS/2 Engineer
Certified OS/2 Lan Server Administrator
Certified OS/2 Lan Server Engineer
jlrowe@{delete.this}iquest.net - http://www.iquest.net/~jlrowe
Team OS/2 - Warping the Internet
-=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=-
Is Microsoft a Tiger?
There once was a lady from Niger
Who smiled as she rode on a Tiger
They returned from the ride
With the lady inside
And the smile on the face of the Tiger.
Matthew S. Staben
On 27 Nov 97 07:36:34 GMT, gme...@ibm.net <gme...@ibm.net> wrote:
#1) IBM releases VisualAge for Java for OS/2
#2) IBM releases Java 1.1.1 for OS/2
#3) IBM releases VisualAge for Smalltalk V4.01 for OS/2
#4) IBM releases DB2 Universal Data Base v 5 for OS/2
#5) IBM releases VisualAge PL/I v 2.0 for OS/2
#6) Increased activities at IBM's Testcase site an IBM not so secret place to leak out
# almost completed software, but which cannot still be called BETA :)
#7) A new NetScape/2 with java 1.1.1 support shows up at Hobbes
#8 Lotus lets out Smart Suite for Warp4 beta
#9) IBM releases Fix Pack 5 for OS/2
#10) IBM "leaks out" TCP-IP 4.1 at Testcase "by accident"
#11) IBM releases the fastest Java available on X86: v 1.1.4 FOR OS/2
#
#All of these since July 1997. Clearer than that.. not even water!
#
#What keeps the article published in that ZD gutter site from being a complete lie is
#that little "?" at the end of the headline, but the PC Winnies didn't even notice
#that and thus swallowed the desinformation published in that ZD latrine. No wonder
#they use Windoze!
Quite a money making scheme they've got going. As long as the modern-day
muckrakers keep the economy afloat with their "truthful" reporting hidden
in articles adulating the artificial riches created by the Microsoft machine, I'll
continue indirectly receiving a portion of the riches resulting from the stupidty
that one sees throughout the nation.
Even IBM is cashing in on this cash cow. The recently dissolved PC Company
suggests, however, that this trend will not continue. The e-Suite, and Java
efforts, and a new spate of OS/2 advertising, has proven that IBM has been
working towards a new kind of system; a system designed to prevent what
I perceive an incredible explosion in lax, idiotic business practices.
Until the advent of the Personal Computer in the workplace and inter-
connected with intranets, etc., businesses were essentially lock-and-key
institutions. A business simply didn't have its logs walking out the door on
little packets assembled by rogue virii, and secret messages.
IBM's purchase of Lotus Notes is the budding of the grand effort for ensuring
that each of our computer-reliant businesses too, as in the past, are
maintaining safeguards from electronic espionage, for one. The effort has
covered much ground since, cheap as dirt in the long run, the $5 billion
purchase. The e-Suite, quite frankly, is the answer to the rampant abuse
of in-house resources.
A network station on every desk, it seems, is the answer to the rampant
piracy one sees in the workplace. All the new computers have the newer
software which is then passed around to the other, older machines. The
Netscape browser is used freely in many businesses that have no knowledge
that Netscape is a commercial product for business settings. And it's a simple
fact that the law is being broken, and piracy has become an accepted norm.
Network PCs are, indeed, the answer. From now on those installations
that no longer rely on magically maintained Windows 95 desktops will
witness the enhancement of the retention of corporate memory. Knowledge
base management, a function one installation uses in Notes according to
one Infoworld article, is merely extended into a world of interaction
between the largest IBM machine to the smallest. Microsoft hasn't, believe
it or not, attempted to promote technological advancement. Instead, it
bleeds the public that rides on coat-tails of ridiculous economic highs.
According to Playboy magazine, "Raw Data," Microsoft and Intel together
are worth 274 billion. Contrasting, the column states that the combined
net worth of G.M, Ford, Boeing, Eastman-Kodak, Sears, J.P. Morgan,
Caterpillar, and Kellogg was 235 billion dollars!
Yeah,
I think IBM's hunkered down for the big one. I bet they realized that the
only way to economic salvation is to gather under its fold the big companies
that will too survive the chaos that is to result from the unfettered,
undisciplined attitudes prevalent in the workplace today. It can't be ignored,
anymore, I think IBM is telling us. We've got to all tighten up and get
ready for that big crunch; the fall of Microsoft.
One can't sell, even for scrap, a program nobody wants.
Matt
--
-----------------"m"s"t"a"b"e"n"@"p"o"b"o"x"e"s"."c"o"m"-----------------
Microsoft represents software with planned obsolesence built-in,
and the upgrades are often unchanged significantly, but for new
forms of obsolesence.
The Never-Ending Story
rj friedman
In message <347e36cb$1$onqnzf$mr2...@news.cyberstore.ca> -
bad...@cow-net.com writes:
Ż
Ż...The way I read the IBM
Ż"clairifacation", Warp desktop will get enhancements via fixpack
Żor maybe software choice, but there will not be another version.
As long has the enhancements keep coming, who cares whether it is
called `another version'. Semantics don't interest me. Getting
increased functionality does.
ŻBarry Adams
rj friedman
ŻI would like a file system that allows soft and hard links, one that has
Żno need for drive letters, and which supports multiple users. Unix does
Żthis quite well. No reason why OS/2 cannot.
Check out the TVFS file system (you can find it on Hobbes). Done by an
IBMer as EWS (Employee Written Software - free).
Żdp
Dennis Peterson
rj friedman wrote:
>
> In message <347e36cb$1$onqnzf$mr2...@news.cyberstore.ca> -
> bad...@cow-net.com writes:
> Ż
>
> Ż...The way I read the IBM
> Ż"clairifacation", Warp desktop will get enhancements via fixpack
> Żor maybe software choice, but there will not be another version.
>
> As long has the enhancements keep coming, who cares whether it is
> called `another version'. Semantics don't interest me. Getting
> increased functionality does.
>
> ŻBarry Adams
>
> [RJ] OS/2 - Live it, or live with it.
> rj friedman Team ABW
> Taipei, Taiwan r...@xxxmail.sysnet.net.tw
>
> To send email - remove the `xxx'
> ________________________________________________________
I am quite certain, and I expect to be proven correct, that ISV's will
look at sales figures and decide it isn't worth the effort to develop
for OS/2 if IBM drops the client edition of Warp. That is fine if you
already have all the stuff you need (and I do), but what of the future?
New hardware will require new drivers. Existing drivers need bug fixes.
Will there be interest in any of this? I think not. My ColorWorks/2 is a
nice product but the integrated TWAIN support I expected to have when I
purchased it will never be realized.
You want a barometer? Watch what Stardock does, and watch what
StarOffice does. This could be as much fun as a Clancey novel.
dp
dp
rj friedman
In message <347e7849$7$onqnzf$mr2...@news.cyberstore.ca> -
bad...@cow-net.com writes:
Ż
Ż>As long has the enhancements keep coming, who cares whether it is
Ż>called `another version'. Semantics don't interest me. Getting
Ż>increased functionality does.
ŻI doubt that this level of support, will be viewed as a strong
Żcommitment to OS2 by IHV's and ISV's...
OTOH, as the additions keep coming out, this may very well be viewed
as a strong measure of commitment to OS2 by IHV's and ISV's. As the
Java stuff gets ramped up - and as IBM has committed to OS/2 bieng the
premier Java platform - this becomes a moot point anyway.
Ż Lets put it this way, if
Żeven the true believers are starting to have doubts...
Which true believers are starting to have doubts?
Ż how do you
Żthink the rest of the computing world views IBM's support for OS2?
From what I've been reading in the trade rags, the rest of the
computing world is impressed with where OS/2 is going.
rj friedman
In message <347E7B...@halcyon.com> - Dennis Peterson
<dpet...@halcyon.com> writes:
Ż
Ż> As long has the enhancements keep coming, who cares whether it is
Ż> called `another version'. Semantics don't interest me. Getting
Ż> increased functionality does.
ŻI am quite certain, and I expect to be proven correct, that ISV's will
Żlook at sales figures and decide it isn't worth the effort to develop
Żfor OS/2 if IBM drops the client edition of Warp. That is fine if you
Żalready have all the stuff you need (and I do), but what of the future?
The future is clearly Java - IBM is making no secret of this. Java may
not be ready to step in and take over today, but our current OS/2 and
our current OS/2 applications will easily hold us until it is.
ŻNew hardware will require new drivers. Existing drivers need bug fixes.
ŻWill there be interest in any of this? I think not. My ColorWorks/2 is a
Żnice product but the integrated TWAIN support I expected to have when I
Żpurchased it will never be realized.
You can bet your booty that with OS/2 as the basis for its WSOD
servers and its `premier Java platform', IBM will make sure that the
necessary drivers exist. Twain for OS/2 does exist, btw (in case you
are still interested).
ŻYou want a barometer? Watch what Stardock does, and watch what
ŻStarOffice does. This could be as much fun as a Clancey novel.
My barometer is Netscape - switching over to Java version of navigator
(Javigator - ugh! what a name!); Lotus - bringing out their SS as Java
components; Corel - bringing out their suite as Java components;
PostRoad Mailer - bringing out their mail program in Java; and lots of
little guys such as ICQ - with a Java version; Jago, my Go (the board
game) client; going to the Sesame Street site and having my daughter
be able to play the Java games they have there; etc.
Żdp
Robato Yao
In <yuK7NFYce9Hj-pn2-eSmdfj9veDzL@localhost>, pri...@texas.net (Bill Pridgen) writes:
>On Thu, 27 Nov 1997 16:50:01, dmccoy@REMOVE_MEmnsinc.com (David H.
>McCoy) wrote:
>
>> old, with the version 4 no where in sight.
>
>public to tide the stubborn OS/2 users over until they wise up and
>"migrate" to NT? We should know before long.
>
>> slowly, but surely. Fixpacks and small enhancement releases are released,
>> but major annoucments and new features are not.
>
>fixpaks and small enhancement releases. I really can't think of
>anything I would like to do that I can't already do, and I'm still
>using Warp 3. (A year ago I was planning to switch to Win95, but it
>was so bad that I abandoned that idea after a couple of months.)
>
>Let's say the OS/2 "project" is "being shutdown[sic], slowly but
>surely." As long as it's being done slowly, we will have plenty of
>time to make whatever adjustments to that eventuality we might decide
>to make. Hey, we might even like whatever comes next!
I do think that the GRADD drivers, vast improvements on Open32 and Java
are not small enhancements. They are certainly core deep level
enhancements, among the most significant done since OS/2 2.0 debuted.
Improvements on GRADD and Open32 will play a fundamental part if IBM
ever ports full Win32 to OS/2. I once saw a photo, and while I cannot
verify whether it is a hoax or not, from the way the Windows 95 device
manager is open within OS/2, it depended on GRADD.
Rgds,
Chris
Robato Yao
>>
>>
>>
>> G. Mella
>> to e-mail remove the X from the e-mail address
>>
>
All of it are already on NT, so why bother.
>Smartsuite is a beta of a product that has been out a year. Netscape is
Wrong. Smartsuite is a product that has been out since last March.
This is a beta for a new Smartsuite release.
>old, with the version 4 no where in sight.
As for Netscape, the beta is out in private, but IBM deserves some
knocks for the great delay.
>
>Have any of you people worked on a project that was being shutdown,
>slowly, but surely. Fixpacks and small enhancement releases are released,
>but major annoucments and new features are not.
GRADD
Java 1.1.4
TCP/IP 4.1
Open32
are not small enhancements. They are in fact, the biggest internal core
enhancements I have seen done on OS/2 since 2.0 debuted.
Rgds,
Chris
Steven C. Den Beste
rj friedman wrote in message <65m4q3$s...@news.seed.net.tw>...
>In message <347E7B...@halcyon.com> - Dennis Peterson
><dpet...@halcyon.com> writes:
>Ż
>
>Ż> As long has the enhancements keep coming, who cares whether it is
>Ż> called `another version'. Semantics don't interest me. Getting
>Ż> increased functionality does.
>
>
>ŻI am quite certain, and I expect to be proven correct, that ISV's will
>Żlook at sales figures and decide it isn't worth the effort to develop
>Żfor OS/2 if IBM drops the client edition of Warp. That is fine if you
>Żalready have all the stuff you need (and I do), but what of the future?
>
>The future is clearly Java - IBM is making no secret of this. Java may
>not be ready to step in and take over today, but our current OS/2 and
>our current OS/2 applications will easily hold us until it is.
>
>
>ŻNew hardware will require new drivers. Existing drivers need bug fixes.
>ŻWill there be interest in any of this? I think not. My ColorWorks/2 is a
>Żnice product but the integrated TWAIN support I expected to have when I
>Żpurchased it will never be realized.
>
>You can bet your booty that with OS/2 as the basis for its WSOD
>servers and its `premier Java platform', IBM will make sure that the
>necessary drivers exist. Twain for OS/2 does exist, btw (in case you
>are still interested).
IBM will make sure that the necessary drivers exist, but only for such
hardware as is needed for WSOD.
MIDI support for complex wave table boards? What use has WSOD got for that?
So you won't be seeing AWE64 drivers, or GAME THEATER 64 drivers.
3D accelerator boards? WSOD doesn't need them. Won't be any drivers for
those, either.
...and so on.
Saying "IBM will provide drivers" is an overly broad generalization. IBM
will provide *some* drivers, but not necessarily all the ones you'd really
want.
>ŻYou want a barometer? Watch what Stardock does, and watch what
>ŻStarOffice does. This could be as much fun as a Clancey novel.
>
>
>My barometer is Netscape - switching over to Java version of navigator
>(Javigator - ugh! what a name!); Lotus - bringing out their SS as Java
>components; Corel - bringing out their suite as Java components;
>PostRoad Mailer - bringing out their mail program in Java; and lots of
>little guys such as ICQ - with a Java version; Jago, my Go (the board
>game) client; going to the Sesame Street site and having my daughter
>be able to play the Java games they have there; etc.
Javagator is not currently planned to replace the native versions of
Communicator; rather, it's a parallel path. Javagator is also only the
browser portion of Communicator.
Corel is iffy. They already tried a major Java implementation, and cancelled
it. Hardly a ringing endorsement. They say they're going to try again. We'll
see whether the same thing happens.
Dennis Peterson
rj friedman wrote:
>
> In message <347E7B...@halcyon.com> - Dennis Peterson
> <dpet...@halcyon.com> writes:
> Ż
>
> Ż> As long has the enhancements keep coming, who cares whether it is
> Ż> called `another version'. Semantics don't interest me. Getting
> Ż> increased functionality does.
>
> ŻI am quite certain, and I expect to be proven correct, that ISV's will
> Żlook at sales figures and decide it isn't worth the effort to develop
> Żfor OS/2 if IBM drops the client edition of Warp. That is fine if you
> Żalready have all the stuff you need (and I do), but what of the future?
>
> The future is clearly Java - IBM is making no secret of this. Java may
> not be ready to step in and take over today, but our current OS/2 and
> our current OS/2 applications will easily hold us until it is.
>
> ŻNew hardware will require new drivers. Existing drivers need bug fixes.
> ŻWill there be interest in any of this? I think not. My ColorWorks/2 is a
> Żnice product but the integrated TWAIN support I expected to have when I
> Żpurchased it will never be realized.
>
> You can bet your booty that with OS/2 as the basis for its WSOD
> servers and its `premier Java platform', IBM will make sure that the
> necessary drivers exist. Twain for OS/2 does exist, btw (in case you
> are still interested).
>
> ŻStarOffice does. This could be as much fun as a Clancey novel.
>
> My barometer is Netscape - switching over to Java version of navigator
> (Javigator - ugh! what a name!); Lotus - bringing out their SS as Java
> components; Corel - bringing out their suite as Java components;
> PostRoad Mailer - bringing out their mail program in Java; and lots of
> little guys such as ICQ - with a Java version; Jago, my Go (the board
> game) client; going to the Sesame Street site and having my daughter
> be able to play the Java games they have there; etc.
>
> ________________________________________________________
>
> [RJ] OS/2 - Live it, or live with it.
> rj friedman Team ABW
> Taipei, Taiwan r...@xxxmail.sysnet.net.tw
>
> To send email - remove the `xxx'
> ________________________________________________________
I have to observe that I dislike Java applications invading my desktop
for the same reason I dislike Windows on my desktop. I have OS/2. I
prefer OS/2 native applications. That is going out the window. Java in
the workplace is quite a different story. In fact, I am writing nothing
but Java tools for the Unix systems I admin. Goodbye, Perl, hello
NetRexx!
OS/2 will not be the basis of WSOD, JOS will be. JOS will load WSOD
modules as required from the WSOD server.
TWAIN is available for OS/2 (finally) but not as an integrated product
(at least for ColorWorks/2). The CFM product works great with my MUSTEK
fp1 scanner but runs as an external app.
I've just downloaded Embellish - I'm curious to see what develops. It is
a *very* buggy program, BTW. Do you suppose they will still Warp as a
viable platform for their products? Time will tell.
dp
bad...@cow-net.com
In <65m3k2$s...@news.seed.net.tw>, on 11/28/97
at 09:41 AM, r...@xxxmail.sysnet.net.tw (rj friedman) said:
>»I doubt that this level of support, will be viewed as a strong
>»commitment to OS2 by IHV's and ISV's...
>OTOH, as the additions keep coming out, this may very well be
>viewed as a strong measure of commitment to OS2 by IHV's and
>ISV's. As the Java stuff gets ramped up - and as IBM has
>committed to OS/2 bieng the premier Java platform - this becomes
>a moot point anyway.
What strong commitment to Java on OS2. Seems to me all the new
Java apps from IBM appear first as Win versions and then and only
sometimes as OS2 versions. Wheres via-voice for OS2? Where's
IBM's muscle getting us improved video, or print drivers.
In any case IHV's and ISV's are unlikely to see sufficient support
for OS2, to warrant investing money in OS2 developement, when
IBM's strategy is clearly not based on expanding OS2's penetration
of the market. Support while IBM gets all its ducks in a row to
allow its target market to migrate away from an OS2 desktop
solution without alienating that target market, is hardly a
strategy that is designed to expand OS2's desktop market share is
it? Loyal OS2 ISV's are already forced to pursue a cross platform
developement strategy to survive. This seems to me a fairly
convincing demonstration that the OS2 user base is perilously
small. Do you think that this latest "demonstration" of support
for the OS2 desktop by IBM is going to encourage a growth of that
userbase? Do you think it will even encourage existing users to
buy OS2 apps from OS2 ISV's.
boo...@ibm.net
on 11/27/97at 11:48 PM, the Great and Grand Wazir bad...@cow-net.com
said:
I doubt that this level of support, will be viewed as a strong commitment
to OS2 by IHV's and ISV's. Lets put it this way, if even the true
believers are starting to have doubts, how do you think the rest of the
computing world views IBM's support for OS2?
Any ISV that hasn't gotten the message that IBM wants him working on Java
hasn't been opening his mail. It can't be a surprise that writing
programs to the old paradigm is a lose-lose. I can see where an ISV is
torn about learning Java or writing to Win32. But that is not the "death"
of OS/2 is it?
----------------------------------------------------
Booth Martin
---------------------------------------------------
tho...@ifa.hawaii.edu
Barry Adams writes:
> Bill Pridgen said:
>> Let's say the OS/2 "project" is "being shutdown[sic], slowly but
>> surely." As long as it's being done slowly, we will have plenty
>> of time to make whatever adjustments to that eventuality we
>> might decide to make. Hey, we might even like whatever comes
>> next!
> Isn't that what the jounalist Zachman (?) said last year, and got
> flamed for?
Not exactly.
> The way I read the IBM
> "clairifacation", Warp desktop will get enhancements via fixpack
> or maybe software choice, but there will not be another version.
The way you read things is hardly authoritative.
tho...@ifa.hawaii.edu
Dennis Peterson writes:
>> David H. McCoy writes:
>>> Have any of you people worked on a project that was being shutdown,
>>> slowly, but surely. Fixpacks and small enhancement releases are released,
>>> but major annoucments and new features are not.
>> Have you ever worked on a project that has millions of Fortune 500
>> customers around the world?
>>
>> I gather Java 1.1.4 isn't a new feature or a major announcement to you.
> It also doesn't work very well,
The usual unsubstantiated claim. Taking lessons from Todd Kepus? What's
next? "Of generally poor quality."?
> inspite of the performance figures.
Doesn't that mean it works better?
> There is a pretty significant bug in the JIT.
Yet another unsubstantiated claim.
> I have not been able to get any RMI code to work at all.
What you've not been able to do doesn't prove there's a bug in the JIT.
> It does work fine under Solaris.
Use the right tool for the job.
tho...@ifa.hawaii.edu
Dennis Peterson writes:
> I would like a file system that allows soft and hard links, one that has
> no need for drive letters, and which supports multiple users. Unix does
> this quite well. No reason why OS/2 cannot.
Or Windows NT.
You have heard the rumors about the JFS from AIX being ported to OS/2?
Of course, they're just rumors. But one of the hints came from none
other than Timothy Sipples. Of course, there's no guarantee.
tho...@ifa.hawaii.edu
Dennis Peterson writes:
> I am quite certain, and I expect to be proven correct, that ISV's will
> look at sales figures and decide it isn't worth the effort to develop
> for OS/2 if IBM drops the client edition of Warp.
The key word here is "if". Wasn't the statement by Atkins intended to
reassure readers that Foley went too far?
> That is fine if you already have all the stuff you need (and I do),
> but what of the future? New hardware will require new drivers. Existing
> drivers need bug fixes. Will there be interest in any of this? I think
> not.
What you think is irrelevant; what you can prove is relevant.
> My ColorWorks/2 is a nice product but the integrated TWAIN support I
> expected to have when I purchased it will never be realized.
Get the right tool for the job.
> You want a barometer? Watch what Stardock does, and watch what
> StarOffice does.
What will that prove? Perhaps you're better off watching what IBM does.
> This could be as much fun as a Clancey novel.
The anti-OS/2 FUD has been flowing freely in this newsgroup for years.
tho...@ifa.hawaii.edu
Dennis Peterson writes:
> I have to observe that I dislike Java applications invading my desktop
> for the same reason I dislike Windows on my desktop. I have OS/2. I
> prefer OS/2 native applications. That is going out the window.
Why? Mine aren't going out the window.
Dennis Peterson
boo...@ibm.net wrote:
>
>
> Any ISV that hasn't gotten the message that IBM wants him working on Java
> hasn't been opening his mail. It can't be a surprise that writing
> programs to the old paradigm is a lose-lose. I can see where an ISV is
> torn about learning Java or writing to Win32. But that is not the "death"
> of OS/2 is it?
>
> ----------------------------------------------------
> Booth Martin
> ---------------------------------------------------
This last question is very important. In fact, it is worth discussing.
How indeed does the death of OS/2 manifest itself?
For me it is quite simple. When the ISVs who make the products I am
interested in stop doing so, then OS/2 is dead for me. I will expand
that for those who ask the foolish question "are you saying my existing
OS/2 installation will suddenly stop running". Obviously today's OS/2
world will continue on, but it will be static. Meanwhile the rest of the
computing world, including my part of it, will continue to move on. For
my purposes, a static OS/2 world is a dead world. Dead as a stone.
dp
David H. McCoy
In article <65l66c$q52$1...@news.iquest.net>, jlr...@iquest.net says...
> In <MPG.ee76ec84...@news1.mnsinc.com>, dmccoy@REMOVE_MEmnsinc.com (David H. McCoy) writes:
>
> >IBM is porting most if not all of the Visual Age products to NT.
>
> including Unix [AIX] and Java.
> And CICS is available for about 21 platforms.
> I'm tempted to ask "What's your point?"
> But then, I know.
> FUD
>
Now why is my point FUD? Because I don't agree with you. My point, since
it shot over your head, is that IBM is deemphasising OS/2. They have,
over the course of years, ported away every advantage OS/2 had over NT and
are pushing NT far more than OS/2. People here are gettings exicited over
Internet banners for OS/2 when IBM is putting NT solution ads in many
major magazines.
No FUD, just the truth, but to quote Jack, "You can't handle it."
> >Smartsuite is a beta of a product that has been out a year. Netscape is
> >old, with the version 4 no where in sight.
> Netscape is hardly old. The magazines are still reviewing it.
> Can't be 'old'. Version 4 for OS/2 is in or near beat from what I
> hear. My guess is that the OS/2 version will be more bug free than
> the Windows version [including IE which is rather buggy].
Netcape 2.02 has a 3.0 core with a 2.02 face. At best, it is over a year
old. How so. Not as many people are testing it so who's to say what bugs
it will have. Not you since you have yet to use it. I'm using Netscape
4.04 and for 4.02 and on, I've been pretty pleased by its workings.
You HOPE that all this time can be justified by the OS/2 version being
less bug-ridden. What are your sources? Are they the same ones that said
the OS/2 version would be released at the same time as the Windows
version, or the same one that said that a beta would be available by the
end of September.
> As for Smartsuite, it is in beta and few problems are being found
> with it. Not bad for lady Lotus, who was mesmerized by the Tiger
> that wants to eat it.
Considering that it follows the Windows version by a year, it should be
able to print without crashing.
>
> >
> >Have any of you people worked on a project that was being shutdown,
> >slowly, but surely. Fixpacks and small enhancement releases are released,
> >but major annoucments and new features are not.
>
> Ah, more FUD. Pure and simple FUD.
So you haven't worked on a project that was winding down. No wonder you
can't recognized the symptoms.
> >-----------------------------------
> >David H. McCoy
> >dmccoy@REMOVE_MEmnsinc.com
> >-----------------------------------
>
> Yes folks, if it were only that simple, just type REMOVE_ME after
> his name and the FUD level goes down in the world, and it's a
> safer place for your kids.
I know. FUD, to you it seems is a dissenting opinion. You're as twisted
as the OS/2 guy.
> -=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=-
> Jerry L. Rowe - Certified OS/2 Engineer
Jerry L. Rowe. Certifiable.
David H. McCoy
In article <65l6mn$j...@lehi.kuentos.guam.net>, cro...@kuentos.guam.net
says...
> In <yuK7NFYce9Hj-pn2-eSmdfj9veDzL@localhost>, pri...@texas.net (Bill Pridgen) writes:
> >On Thu, 27 Nov 1997 16:50:01, dmccoy@REMOVE_MEmnsinc.com (David H.
> >McCoy) wrote:
> >
> >> old, with the version 4 no where in sight.
> >
> >public to tide the stubborn OS/2 users over until they wise up and
> >"migrate" to NT? We should know before long.
No. I would say that they are trying to tide us over. I'm just saying
that since late 1996, OS/2 support from IBM has been getting worse. I
remember everyone cheering in the newsgroups when Lotus was purchased by
IBM. I also remember OS/2 Professional, an OS/2 magazine, writing a story
on how pissed off Describe and others where, thinking that IBM was going
to kill them by bundling Smartsuite with OS/2.
Seems like we were all wrong.
> >> Have any of you people worked on a project that was being shutdown,
> >> slowly, but surely. Fixpacks and small enhancement releases are released,
> >> but major annoucments and new features are not.
> >
> >Maybe OS/2 is already good enough that all it needs right now are
> >fixpaks and small enhancement releases. I really can't think of
> >anything I would like to do that I can't already do, and I'm still
> >using Warp 3. (A year ago I was planning to switch to Win95, but it
> >was so bad that I abandoned that idea after a couple of months.)
Please. How about fixing that queue problem. Or adding some new features
to the interface. Or giving OS/2 some task killing capabilities. Or
fixing DIVE. Remember that? Check out the OS/2 Warp 5 rumor page and
you'll see the wishlist. If you think OS/2 cannot or should not be
improved......that's pretty strange.
> >Let's say the OS/2 "project" is "being shutdown[sic], slowly but
> >surely." As long as it's being done slowly, we will have plenty of
> >time to make whatever adjustments to that eventuality we might decide
> >to make. Hey, we might even like whatever comes next!
Maybe. But NC? No way. For me anyway. I don't thing OS/2 as a OS is
going away, but I think the client has had it. Just my opinion. At least
you're not saying I'm putting out FUD or am having post-conversion
syndrome. I must speaking my mind. I just got tired of not finding new
books, or software, or the headaches involved in gettings some peripherals
to work.
> I do think that the GRADD drivers, vast improvements on Open32 and Java
> are not small enhancements. They are certainly core deep level
> enhancements, among the most significant done since OS/2 2.0 debuted.
> Improvements on GRADD and Open32 will play a fundamental part if IBM
> ever ports full Win32 to OS/2. I once saw a photo, and while I cannot
> verify whether it is a hoax or not, from the way the Windows 95 device
> manager is open within OS/2, it depended on GRADD.
I saw the same one and I believe it was a hoax. Open32 has been out for
what a year. Where are the applications?
> Rgds,
>
> Chris
David H. McCoy
In article <65l6uj$j...@lehi.kuentos.guam.net>, cro...@kuentos.guam.net
> In <MPG.ee76ec84...@news1.mnsinc.com>, dmccoy@REMOVE_MEmnsinc.com (David H. McCoy) writes:
> >Smartsuite is a beta of a product that has been out a year. Netscape is
>
> Wrong. Smartsuite is a product that has been out since last March.
> This is a beta for a new Smartsuite release.
Smartsuite 97 has been out for almost a year, I believe. They are working
on Smartsuite 98, but the beta for OS/2 is based on Smartsuite 97.
> >old, with the version 4 no where in sight.
>
> As for Netscape, the beta is out in private, but IBM deserves some
> knocks for the great delay.
Finally, a voice of reason. Christopher has always been someone who could
see clearly.
> >
> >Have any of you people worked on a project that was being shutdown,
> >slowly, but surely. Fixpacks and small enhancement releases are released,
> >but major annoucments and new features are not.
>
> GRADD
> Java 1.1.4
> TCP/IP 4.1
> Open32
>
> are not small enhancements. They are in fact, the biggest internal core
> enhancements I have seen done on OS/2 since 2.0 debuted.
>
> Rgds,
>
> Chris
>
How exactly is TCP/IP a big core enhancement? Both GRADD, Java, and
Open32 came out with version 4. They are building on them, but since the
big work was done last year, they are just enhancing what is already
there.
tho...@ifa.hawaii.edu
David H. McCoy writes:
> ...IBM is deemphasising OS/2.
Prove it, if you think you can.
> They have, over the course of years, ported away every advantage OS/2 had
> over NT
You are failing to distinguish between operating system and applications.
> and are pushing NT far more than OS/2.
On what basis do you make that claim?
> People here are gettings exicited over Internet banners for OS/2 when
> IBM is putting NT solution ads in many major magazines.
You are still failing to distinguish between operating system and
applications.
> No FUD,
Balderdash.
> just the truth,
Then where's the proof?
> but to quote Jack, "You can't handle it."
You can't prove it.
Jason Bowen
Well Dave you would appear to be static. Things getting improved and
refined, this is a good reason to want your apps to be upgraded and to not
be content with what you have. You as a scientist should never be content
with the current situation, you should always want more, otherwise what is
the point?
tho...@ifa.hawaii.edu
David H. McCoy writes:
> How about fixing that queue problem.
Gad, you're starting to sound like Todd Kepus. I haven't been having
problems with the queue. Not very high on my priority list.
> Or adding some new features to the interface.
Such as?
> Or giving OS/2 some task killing capabilities.
It already has some.
> Or fixing DIVE.
What's broken? And if there is something broken, why should it be a
priority for IBM? Are their corporate customers clamoring for this?
tho...@ifa.hawaii.edu
Jason Bowen writes:
>> Dennis Peterson writes:
>>> I have to observe that I dislike Java applications invading my desktop
>>> for the same reason I dislike Windows on my desktop. I have OS/2. I
>>> prefer OS/2 native applications. That is going out the window.
>> Why? Mine aren't going out the window.
> Well Dave you would appear to be static.
What appears to you is both irrelevant and quite wrong. I just had a new
OS/2 product delivered to me last week.
> Things getting improved and refined, this is a good reason to want your
> apps to be upgraded and to not be content with what you have.
Many of my apps are being upgraded.
> You as a scientist should never be content with the current situation,
> you should always want more, otherwise what is the point?
The point is that you are quite wrong about me appearing to be static.
Gerry Martrin
Dennis Peterson wrote:
>
> boo...@ibm.net wrote:
> >
> >
> > Any ISV that hasn't gotten the message that IBM wants him working on Java
> > hasn't been opening his mail. It can't be a surprise that writing
> > programs to the old paradigm is a lose-lose. I can see where an ISV is
> > torn about learning Java or writing to Win32. But that is not the "death"
> > of OS/2 is it?
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------
> > Booth Martin
> > ---------------------------------------------------
>
> This last question is very important. In fact, it is worth discussing.
> How indeed does the death of OS/2 manifest itself?
With the help, aide and assistance of folks like you and
others who claim to be strong OS/2 supporters. Isn't Mary
Jo Foley a close personal friend of Esther Schindler -the
self prclaimed "Goddess of OS/2"? and now a co-worker
at Reseller of Esther? Hasn't it been Esther who has stood
up in these newsgroups for the Folley Fudster, and claimed
several times her Ziff Davis article is being misconstrued and
that Mary Jo is really a strong supporter of OS/2 AND that
Mary Jo really likes OS/2? WHY is Esther now working for
Ziff Davis? And most importantly, is everyone so afraid of
this self-proclaimed Goddess that no one wants to ask for
answers to these questions? The OS/2 community needs
to look very closely at who they throw their support
behind and realize not all who appear to be supporters of
OS/2 are really doing that but more than liking using OS/2
and the OS/2 community to pad their own pockets.
Mary Jo Foley planted the Ziff Davis article for several
reasons: (1) the world is taking a microscopic look
at Microsoft's unethical business practices because of
the DOJ's recent action and it doesn't look pretty at all,
(2) something was needed to change the focus and topic
of the OS/2 newsgroups, which were, prior to Mary Jo's article,
dominated with subject lines discussing the unethical business
practices of Microsoft, the failure of NT and Windows 95 and
the hatred for Bill Gates & company.
What has Mary Jo been able to achieve with her FUD
article? Run back over the subject lines in OS/2 Advocacy
now - they all deal with talk surrounding OS/2's death
and who are the one stoking the fire? Microsoft advocates
who had been driven away because they couldn't defend
the unethical actions of Microsoft and the failure of NT and
Windows 95, i.e., Jeff Glatt, Steven Beste but not only are
they back in living color but now parading more FUD than
before bolstered by Mary Jo's fake claims?
The OS/2 community needs to seriously look around. We've
been through this routine many times and we shouldn't
allow any one individual to manipulate us so easily. And
those who support and defend people like Mary Jo and
Microsoft deserve no attention from the OS/2 community
because it is exactly what they want - your attention.
They want to control us and it looks like Mary Jo will
receive another Ziff Davis/Bill Gates pat on the back for
her efforts. After all, they scared the OS/2 community
so badly it forced an IBM official to step forward and
discredit yet another phony Ziff Davis OS/2 FUD article.
Gerry
Steven C. Den Beste
Gerry Martrin wrote in message <347f4...@news2.ibm.net>...
Hmmm.... Let's see:
Rank Paranoia? Check.
Bunker mentality? Check.
Identification of everyone as either an enemy or ally with no middle ground?
Check.
Assassination of Esther Schindler's character? Check.
Calling me "Steven Beste"? Check.
Hey, everyone, "OS/2 Guy" is back!
Hey, man, we missed you! It's good to see you again. What have you been up
to?
Bill Pridgen
On Fri, 28 Nov 1997 22:09:57, dmccoy@REMOVE_MEmnsinc.com (David H.
McCoy) wrote:
> > >Maybe OS/2 is already good enough that all it needs right now are
> > >fixpaks and small enhancement releases. I really can't think of
> > >anything I would like to do that I can't already do, and I'm still
> > >using Warp 3. (A year ago I was planning to switch to Win95, but it
> > >was so bad that I abandoned that idea after a couple of months.)
[That's what I said.]
> Please. How about fixing that queue problem. Or adding some new features
> to the interface. Or giving OS/2 some task killing capabilities. Or
> fixing DIVE. Remember that? Check out the OS/2 Warp 5 rumor page and
> you'll see the wishlist. If you think OS/2 cannot or should not be
> improved......that's pretty strange.
I did not say that I think OS/2 cannot or should not be improved. I'd
love to see those things fixed. Of course. I did say that I can do
what I want to with a computer using Warp 3.
> > >Let's say the OS/2 "project" is "being shutdown[sic], slowly but
> > >surely." As long as it's being done slowly, we will have plenty of
> > >time to make whatever adjustments to that eventuality we might decide
> > >to make. Hey, we might even like whatever comes next!
[That's what I said.]
> Maybe. But NC? No way. For me anyway. I don't thing OS/2 as a OS is
> going away, but I think the client has had it. Just my opinion.
IBM conceded the desktop a couple of years ago.
> At least you're not saying I'm putting out FUD or am having post-conversion
> syndrome. I must speaking my mind. I just got tired of not finding new
> books, or software, or the headaches involved in gettings some peripherals
> to work.
I try to deal with what people say, and to avoid judging them
personally.
boo...@ibm.net
on 11/28/97at 01:10 PM, the Great and Grand Wazir Dennis Peterson
<dpet...@halcyon.com> said:
This last question is very important. In fact, it is worth discussing.
How indeed does the death of OS/2 manifest itself?
For me it is quite simple. When the ISVs who make the products I am
interested in stop doing so, then OS/2 is dead for me.
True, absolutely true. Me too. But I am expecting to see new
applications regularly. I suspect some ISV's will turn to Win32 apps, but
some will try their hand at Java and we'll see some good stuff. I'd think
the number of people writing java stuff right now is a heck of a lot more
than were ever writing for OS/2; from that point of view there are more
people working on OS/2 development right now than ever in history.
----------------------------------------------------
Booth Martin
---------------------------------------------------
Dennis Peterson
boo...@ibm.net wrote:
>
> on 11/27/97at 07:29 PM, the Great and Grand Wazir Dennis Peterson
> <dpet...@halcyon.com> said:
>
> I would like a file system that allows soft and hard links, one that has
> no need for drive letters, and which supports multiple users. Unix does
> this quite well. No reason why OS/2 cannot.
>
> database? Isn't OS/2 already set up that way, excepting for the hardware
> constraints? I notice that OS/2 really sees my storage as logical files,
> and sees the hardware virtually, separated from direct access to the DASD.
> I think.
>
> ----------------------------------------------------
> Booth Martin
> ---------------------------------------------------
I don't know - I have no DB/2 experience away fromr an AS/400
environment.
dp
Dennis Peterson
> > no need for drive letters, and which supports multiple users. Unix does
> > this quite well. No reason why OS/2 cannot.
>
>
> You have heard the rumors about the JFS from AIX being ported to OS/2?
> Of course, they're just rumors. But one of the hints came from none
> other than Timothy Sipples. Of course, there's no guarantee.
NT is of less interest to me than WSOD. The file system in NT is
undergoing a major hack by MS because it is no longer a big deal to read
it, and because MS is evolving NT away from drive letters to, and toward
true *concurrent* multi-user capability ala Unix. None of which I give a
rip about, but I do have to work with it at work. It is messy stuff.
dp
Dennis Peterson
>
> >>> Have any of you people worked on a project that was being shutdown,
> >>> slowly, but surely. Fixpacks and small enhancement releases are released,
> >>> but major annoucments and new features are not.
>
> >> customers around the world?
> >>
> >> I gather Java 1.1.4 isn't a new feature or a major announcement to you.
>
> > It also doesn't work very well,
>
> The usual unsubstantiated claim. Taking lessons from Todd Kepus? What's
> next? "Of generally poor quality."?
>
> > inspite of the performance figures.
>
> Doesn't that mean it works better?
>
> > There is a pretty significant bug in the JIT.
>
> Yet another unsubstantiated claim.
>
> > I have not been able to get any RMI code to work at all.
>
> What you've not been able to do doesn't prove there's a bug in the JIT.
From the NetRexx list server. Mike Cowlishaw wrote REXX and NetRexx.
------------ snip -----------
Update on this JIT problem: it has been recreated and fixed; there is
still testing to be done, however. If I can, I shall also try and
find a workaround and refresh 1.121 NetRexx if so.
--
Mike Cowlishaw
IBM Fellow, IBM UK Laboratories
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To unsubscribe from this mailing list ( ibm-netrexx ), please send a
note to
majo...@hursley.ibm.com
with the following message in the body of the note
unsubscribe ibm-netrexx <e-mail address>
------- snip -------
This was in response to a list user who said:
--------- snip -----------
I have big troubles with NetRexx and new JDK 1.1.4 on OS/2.
I'm not able to compile and run NR-programs any more.
Java 114 seems ok ...
The method "netrexx.lang.Rexx.optioncheck" seems to get into
the way for running existing NR-programs and to compile code.
Compiling other NR-programs always end with:
netrexx.lang.BadArgumentException: Bad Option character "
where "Bad Option character" shows '"' or '.'
A workaround is to turn JIT off :=(
--------- snip --------------
>
> > It does work fine under Solaris.
I then asked Mike the following:
------------ snip --------------
Does this fix apply ony to the OS/2 JIT or to all 1.1.4 platforms? I
haven't had any
trouble yet with my Solaris system.
On Thu, 27 Nov 97 15:16:37 GMT, Mike Cowlishaw wrote:
>This update is now available at:
>
> http://www2.hursley.ibm.com/netrexx/
>
>This is a refresh that works around the Java 1.1.4 JIT problem reported
>here earlier. It also incorporates some minor fixes and updates; see:
>
---------- snip -----------
To which he replied:
---------- snip -------
The 1.1.4 JIT problem is probably OS/2 only. It is unlikely to apply
to Solaris.
--
Mike Cowlishaw
IBM Fellow, IBM UK Laboratories
------- snip ---------
>
> Use the right tool for the job.
I try.
dp
Dennis Peterson
> > look at sales figures and decide it isn't worth the effort to develop
> > for OS/2 if IBM drops the client edition of Warp.
>
> The key word here is "if". Wasn't the statement by Atkins intended to
> reassure readers that Foley went too far?
The key word here has always been "if". I have made no pretense that all
I have stated on this topic is my opinion, and that I have based that on
my own observations. It is yet to be seen if I am proven right or wrong.
That is why the key word is "if".
>
> > That is fine if you already have all the stuff you need (and I do),
> > but what of the future? New hardware will require new drivers. Existing
> > drivers need bug fixes. Will there be interest in any of this? I think
> > not.
>
> What you think is irrelevant; what you can prove is relevant.
To whom is what I think irrelevant? How can you prove a thing that is
months away from happening? One can only speculate. Your comments are
vacuous.
>
> > My ColorWorks/2 is a nice product but the integrated TWAIN support I
> > expected to have when I purchased it will never be realized.
>
> Get the right tool for the job.
When I bought it there was the promise of this support. It in the
documentation. What happened next is that ColorWorks dropped the
product. I have a work-around that is acceptable, but the experience is
indicative of what I have been saying on this topic. ISV support is, in
my opinion, which I know is irrelevant, flagging.
>
> > You want a barometer? Watch what Stardock does, and watch what
> > StarOffice does.
>
> What will that prove? Perhaps you're better off watching what IBM does.
It is known as indirect evidence. When direct evidence is not
forthcoming, you can observe the environment for groundswell. You can
learn a great deal about things this way. For example, if major vendors
drop support, it is an indication that things do not bode well for the
subject OS.
>
> > This could be as much fun as a Clancey novel.
>
> The anti-OS/2 FUD has been flowing freely in this newsgroup for years.
There is no FUD in anything I have said, and I am very pro OS/2. I am
not real happy with IBM at this particular time.
dp
Dennis Peterson
Gerry Martrin wrote:
>
> Dennis Peterson wrote:
> >
> > boo...@ibm.net wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Any ISV that hasn't gotten the message that IBM wants him working on Java
> > > hasn't been opening his mail. It can't be a surprise that writing
> > > programs to the old paradigm is a lose-lose. I can see where an ISV is
> > > torn about learning Java or writing to Win32. But that is not the "death"
> > > of OS/2 is it?
> > >
> > > ----------------------------------------------------
> > > Booth Martin
> > > ---------------------------------------------------
> >
> > How indeed does the death of OS/2 manifest itself?
>
> others who claim to be strong OS/2 supporters. Isn't Mary
> Jo Foley a close personal friend of Esther Schindler -the
> self prclaimed "Goddess of OS/2"? and now a co-worker
> at Reseller of Esther? Hasn't it been Esther who has stood
> up in these newsgroups for the Folley Fudster, and claimed
> several times her Ziff Davis article is being misconstrued and
> that Mary Jo is really a strong supporter of OS/2 AND that
> Mary Jo really likes OS/2? WHY is Esther now working for
> Ziff Davis?
[snip]
>
> Gerry
I don't know these people or what motivates them. Perhaps Ms. Foley is a
truly likable person and Esther and she have formed a natural
friendship. As for their corporate affiliation details, dunno, but I do
like your reasoned presentation. Perhaps someone has the answers.
dp
Marcus Woletz
rj friedman wrote:
> =
[...]
> =
> My barometer is Netscape - switching over to Java version of navigator
> (Javigator - ugh! what a name!); Lotus - bringing out their SS as Java
> components; Corel - bringing out their suite as Java components;
As I know Corel has canceled their Java-Office.
Any other information?
[...]
> PostRoad Mailer - bringing out their mail program in Java; and lots of
> little guys such as ICQ - with a Java version; Jago, my Go (the board
> game) client; going to the Sesame Street site and having my daughter
> be able to play the Java games they have there; etc.
> =
> =AFdp
> ________________________________________________________
> =
> [RJ] OS/2 - Live it, or live with it.
> rj friedman Team ABW
> Taipei, Taiwan r...@xxxmail.sysnet.net.tw
> =
> To send email - remove the `xxx'
> ________________________________________________________
ciao,
Marcus
-- =
***************************************
Dipl.-Ing. (FH)
Marcus Woletz
Bittingerweg 4
D 73547 Lorch
Tel.: +49 (07172) 22021
Fax: +49 (07172) 22021
E-Mail: Marcus...@t-online.de
***************************************
Gerben Bergman
Jason Bowen wrote:
>
> Well Dave you would appear to be static. Things getting improved and
> refined, this is a good reason to want your apps to be upgraded and to not
> with the current situation, you should always want more, otherwise what is
> the point?
I don't fully agree. I believe that an application can reach a certain
point after which further upgrading only damages the usefulness of it.
Take Microsoft Word for example. I liked version 6.0 very much; it did
everything a word processor should do while at the same time being fast
and efficient. Now look at that horrible monster that's called Word 97.
It crawls along on my machine (120MHz Pentium, 32MB RAM), screaming for
more system resources than I'm willing to give it, and I still haven't
found ONE piece of new functionality that would make it all worth it.
Upgrading to this version is, in my opinion, completely unnecessary and
therefore undesirable.
Of course the above isn't true for all application categories --
there's still much to change and improve in, for instance,
Internet-related applications, merely because the Internet itself keeps
changing rapidly. On the other hand, I think it's safe to say that in
the productivity arena (word processors, spreadsheets, etc.) the bulk
of the development work has been done, and further upgrades only make
the programs bloated. I may even see a market opportunity for a company
that reverses the development cycle and starts stripping down their
products, thus regaining speed and efficiency.
What I'm trying to say is that it isn't unwise to be content with the
current version of an application when it suits your needs reasonably
well. Upgrading isn't an end in itself. You should only do so when it
adds something you could use, which isn't necessarily the case with
every new version.
Gerben.
---------------------------------------
Gerben Bergman -- rer...@globalxs.nl
http://www.globalxs.nl/home/r/rerbert
---------------------------------------
rj friedman
In message <65n1ep$kpv$1...@proxye1.san.rr.com> - "Steven C. Den Beste"
<sdenbes1@NOSPAM@san.rr.com>Fri, 28 Nov 1997 10:11:02 -0800 writes:
Ż
Ż>You can bet your booty that with OS/2 as the basis for its WSOD
Ż>servers and its `premier Java platform', IBM will make sure that the
Ż>necessary drivers exist. Twain for OS/2 does exist, btw (in case you
Ż>are still interested).
ŻIBM will make sure that the necessary drivers exist, but only for such
Żhardware as is needed for WSOD.
Well, well, well... IBM appointed Mr. Broccolli as their official
spokesman on the future of OS/2. I must have been on vacation when
they made the announcement.
ŻSteven C. Den Beste (aka Mr. Broccolli)
________________________________________________________
[RJ] OS/2 - Live it, or live with it.
rj friedman Team ABW
Taipei, Taiwan r...@xxxmail.sysnet.net.tw
To send email - remove the `xxx'
________________________________________________________
gme...@ibm.net
>> 1) IBM releases VisualAge for Java for OS/2
>> 2) IBM releases Java 1.1.1 for OS/2
>> 3) IBM releases VisualAge for Smalltalk V4.01 for OS/2
>> 4) IBM releases DB2 Universal Data Base v 5 for OS/2
>> 5) IBM releases VisualAge PL/I v 2.0 for OS/2
>> 6) Increased activities at IBM's Testcase site an IBM not so secret place to leak out
>> almost completed software, but which cannot still be called BETA :)
>> 7) A new NetScape/2 with java 1.1.1 support shows up at Hobbes
>> 8 Lotus lets out Smart Suite for Warp4 beta
>> 9) IBM releases Fix Pack 5 for OS/2
>> 10) IBM "leaks out" TCP-IP 4.1 at Testcase "by accident"
>> 11) IBM releases the fastest Java available on X86: v 1.1.4 FOR OS/2
>>
>> All of these since July 1997. Clearer than that.. not even water!
>>
>> What keeps the article published in that ZD gutter site from being a complete lie is
>> that little "?" at the end of the headline, but the PC Winnies didn't even notice
>> that and thus swallowed the desinformation published in that ZD latrine. No wonder
>> they use Windoze!
>>
>> G. Mella
>> to e-mail remove the X from the e-mail address
>
>IBM is porting most if not all of the Visual Age products to NT.
So what! IBM is in business to make money and if they smell big money by porting
their product to other platforms, they will do it just like they do it porting to
Unix.
>Smartsuite is a beta of a product that has been out a year.
You are really misinformed, man. SS96 for OS/2 is a GA product SS for Warp 4 has
been under development since early this year and they are on target, because the
product manager told me in march that I would be seeing a beta around this time
and that's exactly what happened. This a job that takes time to complete it. It
could've been done earlier but Lotus had to write or modify lots of the Open32 stuff
because the previous release was not up to the job.
Netscape is
>old, with the version 4 no where in sight.
Well, you don't know what's IBM's plan wrt NS/2 4. Last year many people thought
that Nescape would never write a browser for OS/2 and one day Netscape showed up with
an OS/2 version. So just sit tight and wait.
>
>Have any of you people worked on a project that was being shutdown,
>slowly, but surely. Fixpacks and small enhancement releases are released,
>but major annoucments and new features are not.
You see, you don't know what you are talking about.
IS VisualAge PL/I a small enhancement?
IS DB2 UDB v5 a small enhancement?
Is SmallTalk v4.01 a small enhacement?
These are not toy softwares like the ones you see on Win95/WinNT
G. Mella
to e-mail, remove the X from the e-mail address
gme...@ibm.net
In <347F33...@halcyon.com>, Dennis Peterson <dpet...@halcyon.com> writes:
>boo...@ibm.net wrote:
>>
>>
>> Any ISV that hasn't gotten the message that IBM wants him working on Java
>> hasn't been opening his mail. It can't be a surprise that writing
>> programs to the old paradigm is a lose-lose. I can see where an ISV is
>> torn about learning Java or writing to Win32. But that is not the "death"
>> of OS/2 is it?
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------
>> Booth Martin
>> ---------------------------------------------------
>
>This last question is very important. In fact, it is worth discussing.
>How indeed does the death of OS/2 manifest itself?
>
>interested in stop doing so, then OS/2 is dead for me.
Are you a programmer or just an user of somebody else's code? When I can't find
something I want, I do it myself, that's why I bought a PC, to write programs useful
to me, and OS/2 is an excellent platform to develop software. OS/2 already has the
applications that I need like wordprocessors, ini maintenace, e-mail, browsers, ftp,
dialers, etc. I usually go to COMPUSA and the stuff that I see there for Win95 is
something for which I wouldn't spend my money on. Besides, there is a lot of fun
writing your own stuff and fooling around with the OS/2 APIs functions found in the
"OS/2 Technical Libraries".
I will expand
>that for those who ask the foolish question "are you saying my existing
>OS/2 installation will suddenly stop running". Obviously today's OS/2
>world will continue on, but it will be static. Meanwhile the rest of the
>computing world, including my part of it, will continue to move on. For
>my purposes, a static OS/2 world is a dead world. Dead as a stone.
So far I haven't seen any indication that OS/2 is or is about to become static.
On the contrary, since july there have been lots of activities in the OS/2 world.
DB2 UDB 5 and VA SmallTalk v401, just to mention two, will take me a considerable
time to figure them out and that's the fun of computing!
Now if you meant toy softwares like in the Win95 world, well, that's something
different.
G. Mella
to e-mail, remove the X from the e-mail address
>
>dp
gme...@ibm.net
In <347f4...@news2.ibm.net>, Gerry Martrin <gma...@ibm.net> writes:
>Dennis Peterson wrote:
>>
>> boo...@ibm.net wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > Any ISV that hasn't gotten the message that IBM wants him working on Java
>> > hasn't been opening his mail. It can't be a surprise that writing
>> > programs to the old paradigm is a lose-lose. I can see where an ISV is
>> > torn about learning Java or writing to Win32. But that is not the "death"
>> > of OS/2 is it?
>> >
>> > ----------------------------------------------------
>> > Booth Martin
>> > ---------------------------------------------------
>>
>> This last question is very important. In fact, it is worth discussing.
>> How indeed does the death of OS/2 manifest itself?
>
>others who claim to be strong OS/2 supporters. Isn't Mary
>Jo Foley a close personal friend of Esther Schindler -the
>self prclaimed "Goddess of OS/2"? and now a co-worker
>at Reseller of Esther? Hasn't it been Esther who has stood
>up in these newsgroups for the Folley Fudster, and claimed
>several times her Ziff Davis article is being misconstrued and
>that Mary Jo is really a strong supporter of OS/2 AND that
>Mary Jo really likes OS/2? WHY is Esther now working for
Well said! That's exactly what I think. Look at it this way: reporters need to fill
space with something to justify their jobs so what's better than something designed
to stir up controversies. Despite whatever they call themselves, news organizations
are nothing but businesses whose only existence in life is to make money for their
owner. A controversial new story or article is designed that way to attract readers
so that the owners can go to the advertisers and charge them more money because more
people are reading, or watching, or hearing. In the case of that FUD article, they
achieved their purpose. Could you imagine how many hits that page got since the
article was published and how happy they are because they will charge more money
to those who advertised there? Whenever I read something like that based on unnamed
sources, I immediately conclude that he/she is making up the story and attributes it
to ghosts to evade responsibility. An "unnamed source" is an opinion that I want to
inject but don't want to be responsible for it.
The Pee Cee Winnies who spend time of their lives FUDing here, are just lonenly
people who really need to call attention to themselves. You can imagine how happy
they feel when they see that 500 people replied to their FUD articles.
Why do they waste their time spreading FUD in a newsgroup? Why should they care
whether I use OS/2 or not? Aren't there better causes to spend energy and time on?
I am an OS/2 user and I have never wasted my time in the Win newsgroups. Why should
I care that they use Windoze? It was not my money that they spent so why should I be
so concerned about what they use. I really don't understand the motivations of these
people wasting valuable time of their lives spreading senseless FUDs here; that is of
course, unless they are paid to do it, or are just a Microsoft Committee posting here
under those names.
When us, the real OS/2'ers, stop replying to every single FUD post, they will just go
away.
rj friedman
In message <65nahq$kqh$1...@news01.btx.dtag.de> -
Marcus...@t-online.de (Marcus Woletz)28 Nov 1997 20:45:46 GMT
writes:
Ż
Ż> My barometer is Netscape - switching over to Java version of navigator
Ż> (Javigator - ugh! what a name!); Lotus - bringing out their SS as Java
Ż> components; Corel - bringing out their suite as Java components;
ŻAs I know Corel has canceled their Java-Office.
ŻAny other information?
Corel has not canceled their Java-Office.
ŻMarcus
tho...@ifa.hawaii.edu
Dennis Peterson writes:
>>> I would like a file system that allows soft and hard links, one that has
>>> no need for drive letters, and which supports multiple users. Unix does
>>> this quite well. No reason why OS/2 cannot.
>> Or Windows NT.
>>
>> You have heard the rumors about the JFS from AIX being ported to OS/2?
>> Of course, they're just rumors. But one of the hints came from none
>> other than Timothy Sipples. Of course, there's no guarantee.
> NT is of less interest to me than WSOD.
But you were talking about file systems.
> The file system in NT is undergoing a major hack by MS because it is no
> longer a big deal to read it,
Why would that cause Microsoft to hack it?
> and because MS is evolving NT away from drive letters to, and toward
> true *concurrent* multi-user capability ala Unix.
Does it not already have concurrent multiuser capability? OS/2 does.
> None of which I give a rip about,
But you had to post about it anyway.
> but I do have to work with it at work. It is messy stuff.
So you needed to spread your mess to the newsgroup?
tho...@ifa.hawaii.edu
Dennis Peterson writes:
>>>> David H. McCoy writes:
>>>>> Have any of you people worked on a project that was being shutdown,
>>>>> slowly, but surely. Fixpacks and small enhancement releases are released,
>>>>> but major annoucments and new features are not.
>>>> Have you ever worked on a project that has millions of Fortune 500
>>>> customers around the world?
>>>>
>>>> I gather Java 1.1.4 isn't a new feature or a major announcement to you.
>>> It also doesn't work very well,
>> The usual unsubstantiated claim. Taking lessons from Todd Kepus? What's
>> next? "Of generally poor quality."?
>>> inspite of the performance figures.
>> Doesn't that mean it works better?
>>> There is a pretty significant bug in the JIT.
>> Yet another unsubstantiated claim.
>>> I have not been able to get any RMI code to work at all.
>> What you've not been able to do doesn't prove there's a bug in the JIT.
> From the NetRexx list server. Mike Cowlishaw wrote REXX and NetRexx.
>
> ------------ snip -----------
> Update on this JIT problem: it has been recreated and fixed;
Fixed already! Doesn't that mean there is no longer a bug?
tho...@ifa.hawaii.edu
Dennis Peterson writes:
>>> I am quite certain, and I expect to be proven correct, that ISV's will
>>> look at sales figures and decide it isn't worth the effort to develop
>>> for OS/2 if IBM drops the client edition of Warp.
>> The key word here is "if". Wasn't the statement by Atkins intended to
>> reassure readers that Foley went too far?
> The key word here has always been "if".
Too bad you didn't realize that before you started spouting that tired
old line "OS/2 is really dead".
> I have made no pretense that all I have stated on this topic is my
> opinion,
Balderdash. "OS/2 is really dead" is not a statement of opinion.
> and that I have based that on my own observations.
What have you observed that allows you to authoritatively state that
"OS/2 is really dead"?
> It is yet to be seen if I am proven right or wrong.
On the contrary, we already know that your "OS/2 is really dead" is
wrong.
> That is why the key word is "if".
But you didn't use "if" when you wrote "OS/2 is really dead".
>>> That is fine if you already have all the stuff you need (and I do),
>>> but what of the future? New hardware will require new drivers. Existing
>>> drivers need bug fixes. Will there be interest in any of this? I think
>>> not.
>> What you think is irrelevant; what you can prove is relevant.
> To whom is what I think irrelevant?
Those interested in the facts.
> How can you prove a thing that is months away from happening?
OS/2's current life is not months away from happening.
> One can only speculate.
I don't need to speculate that OS/2 is currently alive.
> Your comments are vacuous.
Your comments are wrong.
>>> My ColorWorks/2 is a nice product but the integrated TWAIN support I
>>> expected to have when I purchased it will never be realized.
>> Get the right tool for the job.
> When I bought it there was the promise of this support.
Then hold Colorworks to their promises.
> It in the documentation.
Then you've got it in writing. Legal recourse.
> What happened next is that ColorWorks dropped the product.
Have they also quit supporting it?
> I have a work-around that is acceptable, but the experience is
> indicative of what I have been saying on this topic.
On the contrary, your experience is not indicative of OS/2 being
really dead.
> ISV support is, in my opinion, which I know is irrelevant, flagging.
If you know your opinion is irrelevant, then why bother posting it?
>>> You want a barometer? Watch what Stardock does, and watch what
>>> StarOffice does.
>> What will that prove? Perhaps you're better off watching what IBM does.
> It is known as indirect evidence.
Isn't direct evidence better?
> When direct evidence is not forthcoming,
Is it not forthcoming in this case?
> you can observe the environment for groundswell. You can
> learn a great deal about things this way.
You can learn a great deal of wrong things.
> For example, if major vendors drop support, it is an indication that
> things do not bode well for the subject OS.
The key word here is "if". Which "major vendors" have dropped support?
Have you bothered to find out which have added support?
>>> This could be as much fun as a Clancey novel.
>> The anti-OS/2 FUD has been flowing freely in this newsgroup for years.
> There is no FUD in anything I have said,
Bullshit. I'd love to know why you think "OS/2 is really dead" isn't
FUD.
> and I am very pro OS/2.
Guffaw. "OS/2 is really dead." "I am very pro OS/2." You don't see
a contradiction here?
> I am not real happy with IBM at this particular time.
Well, then you're even. I wouldn't be surprised is IBM wasn't real
happy with you at this particular time. After all, you were spouting
that "OS/2 is really dead" crap.
rj friedman
In message <MPG.ee908ca2...@news1.mnsinc.com> -
dmccoy@REMOVE_MEmnsinc.com (David H. McCoy)Fri, 28 Nov 1997 16:59:23
-0500 writes:
Ż
Ż> FUD
ŻNow why is my point FUD? Because I don't agree with you. My point, since
Żit shot over your head, is that IBM is deemphasising OS/2.
Hmm... Just in the last couple of weeks we've gotten TCPIP 4.1, Java
1.1.4, GRADD, the new SmartSuite beta. Tell you what - if that is
deemphasising OS/2, I say let the deemphasis roll on!
ŻDavid H. McCoy
David H. McCoy
In article <65pin2$i...@news.seed.net.tw>, r...@mail.sysnet.net.tw says...
> In message <MPG.ee908ca2...@news1.mnsinc.com> -
> dmccoy@REMOVE_MEmnsinc.com (David H. McCoy)Fri, 28 Nov 1997 16:59:23
> -0500 writes:
> Ż
>
>
> Ż> FUD
>
> ŻNow why is my point FUD? Because I don't agree with you. My point, since
> Żit shot over your head, is that IBM is deemphasising OS/2.
>
> Hmm... Just in the last couple of weeks we've gotten TCPIP 4.1, Java
> 1.1.4, GRADD, the new SmartSuite beta. Tell you what - if that is
> deemphasising OS/2, I say let the deemphasis roll on!
Yep, I'm sure people are beating down doors to get the THE SAME THREE
enhancments everyone keeps mentioning. I suprised you didn't mention
Visual Age for Java instead of the WordPro beta, though. At least
VisualAge is shipping.
It is truly sad to see people get such a hard-on for a TCP/IP stack,
Java(In your case, for your THREE Java applications), video drivers that
almost no one supports, and a beta.
This shows how bad things how become.
> ________________________________________________________
>
> [RJ] OS/2 - Live it, or live with it.
--
Dennis Peterson
Marcus Woletz wrote:
>
> rj friedman wrote:
> >
> [...]
> >
> > My barometer is Netscape - switching over to Java version of navigator
>
>
> [...]
>
> > PostRoad Mailer - bringing out their mail program in Java; and lots of
> > little guys such as ICQ - with a Java version; Jago, my Go (the board
> > game) client; going to the Sesame Street site and having my daughter
> > be able to play the Java games they have there; etc.
> >
> > ________________________________________________________
> >
> > [RJ] OS/2 - Live it, or live with it.
> > Taipei, Taiwan r...@xxxmail.sysnet.net.tw
> >
> > To send email - remove the `xxx'
> > ________________________________________________________
>
> Marcus
>
> --
>
> ***************************************
> Dipl.-Ing. (FH)
> Marcus Woletz
> Bittingerweg 4
> D 73547 Lorch
>
> Tel.: +49 (07172) 22021
> Fax: +49 (07172) 22021
> E-Mail: Marcus...@t-online.de
> ***************************************
Corel wisely decided the Java paradigm did not allow for the bloated
office suite. There is activity at Corel to create these tools in a
manner better suited to Java. That is basically what they have said on
their web site at the time they withdrew the Corel Office Suite for
Java. They are quite right. I expect to see some quality stuff from them
for the Java environment and it won't be a worked over remake of the
Windows junk they currently ship.
dp
Dennis Peterson
The bug still exists in Java 1.1.4 but a workaround has been created in
NetRexx.
dp
David H. McCoy
In article <348061...@halcyon.com>, dpet...@halcyon.com says...
>
> Corel wisely decided the Java paradigm did not allow for the bloated
> office suite. There is activity at Corel to create these tools in a
> manner better suited to Java. That is basically what they have said on
> their web site at the time they withdrew the Corel Office Suite for
> Java. They are quite right. I expect to see some quality stuff from them
> for the Java environment and it won't be a worked over remake of the
> Windows junk they currently ship.
>
> dp
>
One question, why do so many people believe that if a product is Windows,
it is automatcally junk?
Can any of your write better software? Do you think that all OS/2 or
Linux, or whatever is quality?
Robato Yao
In <MPG.eea30c65...@news1.mnsinc.com>, dmccoy@REMOVE_MEmnsinc.com (David H. McCoy) writes:
>In article <65pin2$i...@news.seed.net.tw>, r...@mail.sysnet.net.tw says...
>> In message <MPG.ee908ca2...@news1.mnsinc.com> -
>> dmccoy@REMOVE_MEmnsinc.com (David H. McCoy)Fri, 28 Nov 1997 16:59:23
>> -0500 writes:
>> Ż
>>
>>
>> Ż> FUD
>>
>> ŻNow why is my point FUD? Because I don't agree with you. My point, since
>> Żit shot over your head, is that IBM is deemphasising OS/2.
>>
>> Hmm... Just in the last couple of weeks we've gotten TCPIP 4.1, Java
>> 1.1.4, GRADD, the new SmartSuite beta. Tell you what - if that is
>> deemphasising OS/2, I say let the deemphasis roll on!
>
>
>Yep, I'm sure people are beating down doors to get the THE SAME THREE
>enhancments everyone keeps mentioning. I suprised you didn't mention
>Visual Age for Java instead of the WordPro beta, though. At least
>VisualAge is shipping.
>
>It is truly sad to see people get such a hard-on for a TCP/IP stack,
This TCP/IP stack is now faster, more reliable, and has increased
security.
>Java(In your case, for your THREE Java applications), video drivers that
This Java is now the fastest for the Intel platform.
>almost no one supports, and a beta.
These video drivers are ground breaking for their object oriented
design, speeds up Open32 support, and covers several popular video
cards.
As for Smartsuite/97 beta, it's not that big a deal but at least that
adds some more applications to OS/2, including a native 123 and
Approach. And it is shipping by the way. You can order the beta on
CDROM from Indelible Blue, with no expiration on the beta except that
you just don't get full support and documentation. It's more than
workable.
>
>This shows how bad things how become.
Shows you how bad your logic has become.
Rgds,
Chris
>
>> ________________________________________________________
>>
>> [RJ] OS/2 - Live it, or live with it.
>
joseph
On 29 Nov 1997, Robato Yao wrote:
> In <MPG.eea30c65...@news1.mnsinc.com>, dmccoy@REMOVE_MEmnsinc.com (David H. McCoy) writes:
> >It is truly sad to see people get such a hard-on for a TCP/IP stack,
If you want to get vulgar then please do get more creative.
I simply think TCP/IP is the backbone of a network and the improvements
representative of the direction IBM is taking OS/2.
Possibly, a senseless comment about IBM betting the company on OS/2 (a la
Gates' worthless promises for NT) would warm your soul better than a dull
improvement to OS/2 networking.
> As for Smartsuite/97 beta, it's not that big a deal but at least that
> adds some more applications to OS/2, including a native 123 and
> Approach.
I'd wager that the new eSuite Java apps IBM/LOTUS has created will be seen
as a milestone in software -- the death of the bloatware Software Suite.
MS's counter punch to Java apps will be a fatter, more complex and A.I.
infused Software Suite. FYI MS states that NT 5.0's requirements (the
basic corporate client) are a 64-512 MB RAM and 200+ Mhz processor.
Is that the type of software IBM and COREL want to make for most of the
computer community?
David H. McCoy
In article <65q7h5$k...@lehi.kuentos.guam.net>, cro...@kuentos.guam.net
says...
> >Yep, I'm sure people are beating down doors to get the THE SAME THREE
> >enhancments everyone keeps mentioning. I suprised you didn't mention
> >Visual Age for Java instead of the WordPro beta, though. At least
> >VisualAge is shipping.
> >
> >It is truly sad to see people get such a hard-on for a TCP/IP stack,
>
> This TCP/IP stack is now faster, more reliable, and has increased
> security.
How much faster? How much for reliable? If I've got a 33.6 modem, what
kind of throughput can I expect? How exactly is it faster?
>
> >Java(In your case, for your THREE Java applications), video drivers that
>
> This Java is now the fastest for the Intel platform.
I know. I still keep up, but seven percent is good for bragging rights
and nothing else.
> >almost no one supports, and a beta.
>
> These video drivers are ground breaking for their object oriented
> design, speeds up Open32 support, and covers several popular video
> cards.
I know all about the Gradd drivers, but they are not in wide use; neither
is Open32, so its potential is questionable. If someone like 3dfx-based
card manufacturers adopted them, then I would say that this is a great
thing. As it is, its not adding enough to the package.
> As for Smartsuite/97 beta, it's not that big a deal but at least that
> adds some more applications to OS/2, including a native 123 and
> Approach. And it is shipping by the way. You can order the beta on
> CDROM from Indelible Blue, with no expiration on the beta except that
> you just don't get full support and documentation. It's more than
> workable.
It is not shipping in the same sense as say Entrepreneur. OS/2 needs
shipping finished apps, not betas. I agree that it adds something, but
it's not enough. I'm not knocking Smartsuite, I just saying it is not a
good indicator of IBM's support for OS/2.
> >
> >This shows how bad things how become.
>
> Shows you how bad your logic has become.
How so Chris? Please explain the faults in my logic so I can see them. I
see people tossing up the TCP/IP upgrade, Java, and Smartsuite like these
things CLEARLY demostrate that OS/2 is doing great. It has gotten so bad
that these trivial upgrades and a beta is the only card that a lot of
people can play to show OS/2's status. I submit to you that a year ago,
this would not be the case. One year ago when OS/2 Warp came out, several
graphics packages, games, and such were in full developement and if the
TCP/IP and Gradd updates were release, people would be clamoring for SIQ
fixes and better driver support.
Now, because their is so little happening, anything that IBM does is met
with enthusiasm. Gradd and the TCP/IP stack won't help the fact that OS/2
can't use those 120 meg floppy disk, or the new ZipPlus drive, or SB 64
soundcards or $149 flatbed 24-bit color scanner I'm thinking about buying
because there are no drivers. How is Java going to help this situation?
Show me the flaws in my logic.
> Rgds,
>
> Chris
David H. McCoy
In article <Pine.SGI.3.96.971129193601.6397B-
100...@earthsystems.monterey.edu>, coug...@sea.monterey.edu says...
>
> On 29 Nov 1997, Robato Yao wrote:
>
> > In <MPG.eea30c65...@news1.mnsinc.com>, dmccoy@REMOVE_MEmnsinc.com (David H. McCoy) writes:
>
>
I could never match the creativity that some individuals are demostrating
by trying to show how the TCP/IP upgrade is such a great thing.
> I simply think TCP/IP is the backbone of a network and the improvements
> representative of the direction IBM is taking OS/2.
I'm not debating this. If MS or the Linux community released a TCP/IP
upgrade, people would download it, but it would hardly be the big news
that some think it is here. Only a year ago, such an update would be seen
as the fixpack 5 to fixpack 10 upgrade. Something to get if you are
curious, but nothing earth-shattering.
It is pretty significant that when I mention applications, drivers, and
IBM support, the response is Smartsuite beta, TCP/IP upgrade, and what
Java will do.
> Possibly, a senseless comment about IBM betting the company on OS/2 (a la
> Gates' worthless promises for NT) would warm your soul better than a dull
> improvement to OS/2 networking.
Some real OS/2 enhancements would warm my soul better than that dull
improvement, late Netscape beta, that Smartsuite based on last years
Windows version, IBM's own list of worthless promises like OS/2 PowerPC,
OpenDoc, and simultaneous Netscape release.
> > As for Smartsuite/97 beta, it's not that big a deal but at least that
> > adds some more applications to OS/2, including a native 123 and
> > Approach.
>
>
> I'd wager that the new eSuite Java apps IBM/LOTUS has created will be seen
> as a milestone in software -- the death of the bloatware Software Suite.
> MS's counter punch to Java apps will be a fatter, more complex and A.I.
> infused Software Suite. FYI MS states that NT 5.0's requirements (the
> basic corporate client) are a 64-512 MB RAM and 200+ Mhz processor.
> Is that the type of software IBM and COREL want to make for most of the
> computer community?
I've read the requirements. But since I don't have NT 5.0 and it is not
available, I'll worry about it later. If I fired off something about NT
5.0's feature set you would attack because it's a early beta, so I'll
thank you to spare me your comments (that I'm already familar with) about
NT 5.0's resource requirements for the same reason.
As for what will be a milestone in software, who's to say? No matter what
it is it will run on Windows. You can be sure about that. And neither
you nor me will be able to see that seven percent performance difference.
Bob O
On Fri, 28 Nov 1997 21:59:23, dmccoy@REMOVE_MEmnsinc.com (David H. McCoy)
wrote:
> Now why is my point FUD? Because I don't agree with you. My point, since
> it shot over your head, is that IBM is deemphasising OS/2. They have,
> over the course of years, ported away every advantage OS/2 had over NT and
> are pushing NT far more than OS/2. People here are gettings exicited over
> Internet banners for OS/2 when IBM is putting NT solution ads in many
> major magazines.
>
> No FUD, just the truth, but to quote Jack, "You can't handle it."
No actually, IBM understands what businesses want. It is
interconnectiviity. They are selling these solutions everywhere.
Microsoft is taking a Microsoft-centric view. This approach will hurt them
just as it has hurt every business that thinks they can think for their
customers.
One big change is other platforms are not now getting all the ports. For
example, NT was recently rejected as a port in favor of Java for IBM's IDS.
However, Java is still a commitment to run on all platforms.
> > >Smartsuite is a beta of a product that has been out a year. Netscape is
> > >old, with the version 4 no where in sight.
>
> > Netscape is hardly old. The magazines are still reviewing it.
> > Can't be 'old'. Version 4 for OS/2 is in or near beat from what I
> > hear. My guess is that the OS/2 version will be more bug free than
> > the Windows version [including IE which is rather buggy].
>
> Netcape 2.02 has a 3.0 core with a 2.02 face. At best, it is over a year
> old. How so. Not as many people are testing it so who's to say what bugs
> it will have. Not you since you have yet to use it. I'm using Netscape
> 4.04 and for 4.02 and on, I've been pretty pleased by its workings.
>
> You HOPE that all this time can be justified by the OS/2 version being
> less bug-ridden. What are your sources? Are they the same ones that said
> the OS/2 version would be released at the same time as the Windows
> version, or the same one that said that a beta would be available by the
> end of September.
Obviously, the effort to get Java 1.1 into a browser has been difficult for
everybody. Microsoft and Netscape have just partial implementations.
Seems to me the "net year" that IBM promised has even started ticking off
yet.
>
> > As for Smartsuite, it is in beta and few problems are being found
> > with it. Not bad for lady Lotus, who was mesmerized by the Tiger
> > that wants to eat it.
>
> Considering that it follows the Windows version by a year, it should be
> able to print without crashing.
>
> >
> > >
> > >Have any of you people worked on a project that was being shutdown,
> > >slowly, but surely. Fixpacks and small enhancement releases are released,
> > >but major annoucments and new features are not.
> >
> > Ah, more FUD. Pure and simple FUD.
>
> So you haven't worked on a project that was winding down. No wonder you
> can't recognized the symptoms.
The omniscient one states history. . . . .and gets it wrong!!!! Most firms
don't work like Microsoft they are honest with their customers.
Bob O - Computing for fun
Steven C. Den Beste
joseph wrote in message ...
>
>On 29 Nov 1997, Robato Yao wrote:
>
>> In <MPG.eea30c65...@news1.mnsinc.com>,
dmccoy@REMOVE_MEmnsinc.com (David H. McCoy) writes:
>
>> >It is truly sad to see people get such a hard-on for a TCP/IP stack,
>
>If you want to get vulgar then please do get more creative.
>
>representative of the direction IBM is taking OS/2.
>
>Gates' worthless promises for NT) would warm your soul better than a dull
>improvement to OS/2 networking.
>
>> adds some more applications to OS/2, including a native 123 and
>> Approach.
>
>
>I'd wager that the new eSuite Java apps IBM/LOTUS has created will be seen
>as a milestone in software -- the death of the bloatware Software Suite.
>MS's counter punch to Java apps will be a fatter, more complex and A.I.
>infused Software Suite. FYI MS states that NT 5.0's requirements (the
>basic corporate client) are a 64-512 MB RAM and 200+ Mhz processor.
>Is that the type of software IBM and COREL want to make for most of the
>computer community?
I'll take that wager.
I believe that eSuite is going to turn out to be a wet firecracker. What
everyone is going to find is that "the death of bloatware" leads to products
which are underpowered. (The problem is that one man's essential feature is
another man's waste of disk space. While each user may only use a small
minority of the features of the "bloatware" packages, every one of those
features is essential to someone out there. Software suites happened for a
reason.)
I believe that eSuite will turn out to be slow to load and slow to run,
because the underlying Java technology won't turn out to be sufficiently
mature yet to run heavy duty applications.
Some people will look at it, say "That's nice", but most people will
continue to run Office like they do now, because there won't be any
incentive to change.
I believe that eSuite only looks clean and beautiful now because you're
looking at it from a distance.
That's what I wager.
[Joseph, you keep repeating that claim about MS's minimum hardware spec for
NT 5. It's false. NT5 does not require 64M of RAM. Please provide a URL, or
stop repeating it.]
rj friedman
In message <MPG.eea30c65...@news1.mnsinc.com> -
dmccoy@REMOVE_MEmnsinc.com (David H. McCoy)Sat, 29 Nov 1997 14:02:20
-0500 writes:
Ż
Ż> ŻNow why is my point FUD? Because I don't agree with you. My point, since
Ż> Żit shot over your head, is that IBM is deemphasising OS/2.
Ż> Hmm... Just in the last couple of weeks we've gotten TCPIP 4.1, Java
Ż> 1.1.4, GRADD, the new SmartSuite beta. Tell you what - if that is
Ż> deemphasising OS/2, I say let the deemphasis roll on!
ŻYep, I'm sure people are beating down doors to get the THE SAME THREE
Żenhancments everyone keeps mentioning...
People keep mentioning those same three enhancements because we
constantly have to give the lie to the constant harping by the `OS/2
is dead, dead, dead' FUDsters who claims that IBM is `letting OS/2 out
to dry'.
David, don't you think you would be happier in an NT newsgroup sharing
your new found joy with others of your persuasion instead of stalking
around here choking on your bitterness?
ŻDavid H. McCoy
________________________________________________________
[RJ] OS/2 - Live it, or live with it.
rj friedman
In message <MPG.eeab298b...@news1.mnsinc.com> -
dmccoy@REMOVE_MEmnsinc.com (David H. McCoy)Sat, 29 Nov 1997 23:16:18
-0500 writes:
Ż
Ż> I simply think TCP/IP is the backbone of a network and the improvements
Ż> representative of the direction IBM is taking OS/2.
ŻI'm not debating this. If MS or the Linux community released a TCP/IP
Żupgrade, people would download it, but it would hardly be the big news
Żthat some think it is here...
It is big news because it demonstrates IBM's committment to the
present and future of OS/2, and it gives the lie to the claque of
FUDsters who have claimed (on the basis of that Mary Jo Foley piece of
trash, btw), that (and I quote) `OS/2 is dead, dead, dead, kaput',
because IBM has `left it out to dry'.
tho...@ifa.hawaii.edu
Dennis Peterson writes:
>>>>>> David H. McCoy writes:
>>>>>>> Have any of you people worked on a project that was being shutdown,
>>>>>>> slowly, but surely. Fixpacks and small enhancement releases are released,
>>>>>>> but major annoucments and new features are not.
>>>>>> Have you ever worked on a project that has millions of Fortune 500
>>>>>> customers around the world?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I gather Java 1.1.4 isn't a new feature or a major announcement to you.
>>>>> It also doesn't work very well,
>>>> The usual unsubstantiated claim. Taking lessons from Todd Kepus? What's
>>>> next? "Of generally poor quality."?
>>>>> inspite of the performance figures.
>>>> Doesn't that mean it works better?
>>>>> There is a pretty significant bug in the JIT.
>>>> Yet another unsubstantiated claim.
>>>>> I have not been able to get any RMI code to work at all.
>>>> What you've not been able to do doesn't prove there's a bug in the JIT.
>>> From the NetRexx list server. Mike Cowlishaw wrote REXX and NetRexx.
>>>
>>> ------------ snip -----------
>>> Update on this JIT problem: it has been recreated and fixed;
>> Fixed already! Doesn't that mean there is no longer a bug?
> The bug still exists in Java 1.1.4 but a workaround has been created in
> NetRexx.
The remark above refers to the JIT problem as being fixed, not worked
around.
J. Scott McPhee
In message <MPG.eea71e41...@news1.mnsinc.com> -
dmccoy@REMOVE_MEmnsinc.com (David H. McCoy)Sat, 29 Nov 1997 18:40:05 -0500
writes:
:
:>
:>One question, why do so many people believe that if a product is Windows,
:>it is automatcally junk?
:>
Because the OS it is written for is a peice of junk. Just follow this
simple formula:
Well written app + buggy unreliable OS = Buggy unreliable app
No matter how well an application is written, its quality is compromised by
the quality of the OS it is written for.
regards
J. Scott McPhee
David H. McCoy
In article <65r39b$pk9$1...@proxye1.san.rr.com>, sdenbes1@NOSPAM says...
> [Joseph, you keep repeating that claim about MS's minimum hardware spec for
> NT 5. It's false. NT5 does not require 64M of RAM. Please provide a URL, or
> stop repeating it.]
>
Search Infoworld's site. I read that too, only it did not say minimum. It
said recommend.
David H. McCoy
In article <65r221$l...@news.seed.net.tw>, r...@mail.sysnet.net.tw says...
> In message <MPG.eeab298b...@news1.mnsinc.com> -
> dmccoy@REMOVE_MEmnsinc.com (David H. McCoy)Sat, 29 Nov 1997 23:16:18
> -0500 writes:
> Ż
>
> Ż> I simply think TCP/IP is the backbone of a network and the improvements
> Ż> representative of the direction IBM is taking OS/2.
>
> ŻI'm not debating this. If MS or the Linux community released a TCP/IP
> Żupgrade, people would download it, but it would hardly be the big news
> Żthat some think it is here...
>
> It is big news because it demonstrates IBM's committment to the
> present and future of OS/2, and it gives the lie to the claque of
No. It's big news because theire is nothing else going on. That and
those Gradd drivers......
> [RJ] OS/2 - Live it, or live with it.
> rj friedman Team ABW
Lorenzo Nogasi
David H. McCoy wrote:
> =
> In article <65r221$l...@news.seed.net.tw>, r...@mail.sysnet.net.tw says..=
=2E
> > In message <MPG.eeab298b...@news1.mnsinc.com> -
> > dmccoy@REMOVE_MEmnsinc.com (David H. McCoy)Sat, 29 Nov 1997 23:16:18
> > -0500 writes:
> > =AF
> >
> > =AF> I simply think TCP/IP is the backbone of a network and the impro=
vements
> > =AF> representative of the direction IBM is taking OS/2.
> >
> > =AFI'm not debating this. If MS or the Linux community released a TC=
P/IP
> > =AFupgrade, people would download it, but it would hardly be the big =
news
> > =AFthat some think it is here...
> >
> > It is big news because it demonstrates IBM's committment to the
> > present and future of OS/2, and it gives the lie to the claque of
> =
> No. It's big news because theire is nothing else going on. That and
> those Gradd drivers......
> =
> > [RJ] OS/2 - Live it, or live with it.
> > rj friedman Team ABW
> --
> -----------------------------------
> David H. McCoy
> dmccoy@REMOVE_MEmnsinc.com
> -----------------------------------
No. It's big news because it DOES demonstrate IBM's commitment
to the present and future of OS/2 - you just can't accept that,
you WON'T accept that because you've walked away from OS/2
and can't stand the fact that other more informed OS/2 users
won't follow your pathetic lead. =
I've said it before and I'll say it again: Take your lousy MS
propaganda and go elsewhere. We see you for what you
are.
Lorenzo Nogasi,
TEAMOS/2
Steven C. Den Beste
Lorenzo Nogasi wrote in message <3481d...@news2.ibm.net>...
>David H. McCoy wrote:
>>
>> In article <65r221$l...@news.seed.net.tw>, r...@mail.sysnet.net.tw says...
>> > In message <MPG.eeab298b...@news1.mnsinc.com> -
>> > dmccoy@REMOVE_MEmnsinc.com (David H. McCoy)Sat, 29 Nov 1997 23:16:18
>> > -0500 writes:
>> >
>> > Ż> I simply think TCP/IP is the backbone of a network and the
improvements
>> > Ż> representative of the direction IBM is taking OS/2.
>> >
>> > ŻI'm not debating this. If MS or the Linux community released a TCP/IP
>> > Żupgrade, people would download it, but it would hardly be the big news
>> > Żthat some think it is here...
>> >
>> > It is big news because it demonstrates IBM's committment to the
>> > present and future of OS/2, and it gives the lie to the claque of
>>
>> those Gradd drivers......
>>
>> > rj friedman Team ABW
>> --
>> -----------------------------------
>> David H. McCoy
>> dmccoy@REMOVE_MEmnsinc.com
>> -----------------------------------
>
>No. It's big news because it DOES demonstrate IBM's commitment
>to the present and future of OS/2 - you just can't accept that,
>you WON'T accept that because you've walked away from OS/2
>and can't stand the fact that other more informed OS/2 users
>won't follow your pathetic lead.
>
>propaganda and go elsewhere. We see you for what you
>are.
>
>Lorenzo Nogasi,
>TEAMOS/2
Have you, now? That's odd; neither Alta Vista nor Deja News show any record
of any post at any time from anyone named "Nogasi".
Just when did you say it before? And what was your name that time?
joseph
David H. McCoy wrote:
>
> In article <Pine.SGI.3.96.971129193601.6397B-
> Some real OS/2 enhancements would warm my soul better than that dull
> improvement, late Netscape beta, that Smartsuite based on last years
> Windows version, IBM's own list of worthless promises like OS/2 PowerPC,
> OpenDoc, and simultaneous Netscape release.
The one thing that has still me using OS/2 today and optimistic is Java
and OS/2's JVM support and VA Java.
That's the only new thing I need and I have it.
> I've read the requirements. But since I don't have NT 5.0 and it is not
> available, I'll worry about it later. If I fired off something about NT
> 5.0's feature set you would attack because it's a early beta, so I'll
> thank you to spare me your comments (that I'm already familar with) about
> NT 5.0's resource requirements for the same reason.
My comments on NT 5.0 are directed at MS's vision for NT, not the
BETA-ALPHA. I think it's good for MS to be frank about the
requirements. It's hard for some to accept but NT has always been a
resource hog W.R.T. the prevailing PC configuration.
The requirements tells me where NT is going in the next few years.
Since the client is supposed to be the main Windows desktop client, I am
confident MS will have to change directions. NT 5.0 is too fat/costly
for massive deployment in a company when sub $1000 computers are
popular.
> As for what will be a milestone in software, who's to say? No matter what
> it is it will run on Windows. You can be sure about that. And neither
> you nor me will be able to see that seven percent performance difference.
Milestones are not easy to predict or recognize but a thin, functional
Java suite would be my pick. The fact IBM has so many partners signed
up to use eSuite makes the pick easier. The ability to ship eSuite as a
networked, cacjed or stand-alone package makes it is even more
interesting.
As for the the 7% advantage. I see it as a icon for IBM's effort into
being competitive with OS/2.
Todd Kepus
On Sun, 30 Nov 1997 12:43:35 -0500, dmccoy@REMOVE_MEmnsinc.com (David
H. McCoy) wrote:
>In article <65r39b$pk9$1...@proxye1.san.rr.com>, sdenbes1@NOSPAM says...
>
>> [Joseph, you keep repeating that claim about MS's minimum hardware spec for
>> NT 5. It's false. NT5 does not require 64M of RAM. Please provide a URL, or
>> stop repeating it.]
>>
>
>Search Infoworld's site. I read that too, only it did not say minimum. It
>said recommend.
Gee, that's informative. Sheesh. I recommend 256MB for NT then. It
just works better. :-)
(And don't start comparing it to OS/2 with 4MB, I wouldn't recommend
OS/2 in any amount of memory if you want to play that game...) :-)
-Todd
>
>
>
>--
>-----------------------------------
>David H. McCoy
>dmccoy@REMOVE_MEmnsinc.com
>-----------------------------------
Todd Kepus - Japan Hewlett Packard - todd_...@hp.com
--------------------------------------------------------
*The standard disclaimers et. al. (and stuff) apply.
"I am not an HP spokesperson, and any opinions presented
here are mostly likely _not_ those of HP's"
--------------------------------------------------------
Todd Kepus
On 30 Nov 97 15:22:46 GMT, mcp...@ibm.net (J. Scott McPhee) wrote:
>In message <MPG.eea71e41...@news1.mnsinc.com> -
>dmccoy@REMOVE_MEmnsinc.com (David H. McCoy)Sat, 29 Nov 1997 18:40:05 -0500
>writes:
>:
>:>
>:>One question, why do so many people believe that if a product is Windows,
>:>it is automatcally junk?
>:>
>
>Because the OS it is written for is a peice of junk. Just follow this
>simple formula:
>
>Well written app + buggy unreliable OS = Buggy unreliable app
Unfortunately, this formula assumes that the OS is buggy.
Fortunately, NT is a very reliable OS, and I've got some excellent
software for it that is of very high quality.
So, reversing the formula, if the outcome is a highly reliable app.,
does that say something of the OS?
I've seen excellent software for Windows 3.1, btw. I don't think you
want to say that Windows 3.1 is an excellent OS.
>
>No matter how well an application is written, its quality is compromised by
>the quality of the OS it is written for.
The OS would have to be *really* bad for this to be true. Windows 95
isn't the greatest piece around, and I've seen some great software for
it.
NT lets me run unreliable software without worrying about the
environment around me. 95 and OS/2 can't give this to me.
-Todd
>
>regards
>J. Scott McPhee
rj friedman
In message <MPG.eea71e41...@news1.mnsinc.com> -
dmccoy@REMOVE_MEmnsinc.com (David H. McCoy)Sat, 29 Nov 1997 18:40:05
-0500 writes:
ŻOne question, why do so many people believe that if a product is Windows,
Żit is automatcally junk?
Experience, perhaps?
You are an interesting case, David. Before your recent conversion to
the MS persuasion you were one of the foremost proponents of the
`Windows is junk' school of thought. I wonder what you will have to
say about your new found treasure after you leave it for your next
conversion.
ŻDavid H. McCoy
________________________________________________________
[RJ] OS/2 - Live it, or live with it.
rj friedman Team ABW
Robato Yao
In <MPG.eeab012e...@news1.mnsinc.com>, dmccoy@REMOVE_MEmnsinc.com (David H. McCoy) writes:
>In article <65q7h5$k...@lehi.kuentos.guam.net>, cro...@kuentos.guam.net
>says...
>
>> >Visual Age for Java instead of the WordPro beta, though. At least
>> >VisualAge is shipping.
>> >
>>
>> security.
>
>How much faster? How much for reliable? If I've got a 33.6 modem, what
>kind of throughput can I expect? How exactly is it faster?
I can only comment from testers.
>
>>
>> >Java(In your case, for your THREE Java applications), video drivers that
>>
>> This Java is now the fastest for the Intel platform.
>
>I know. I still keep up, but seven percent is good for bragging rights
>and nothing else.
It shows the enormous progress IBM is making on OS/2's Java. OS/2 is
way behind in Java speed circa the end of 1996. In the end of 1997, it
is now ahead, overtaking the fastest Java on the Intel platform. That's
progress faster than Microsoft's, dude. While Microsoft is in a deep
battle with Sun, IBM will continue to progress and progress Java on
OS/2. I don't believe OS/2 has achieved the status of being the best
development platform for Java yet, as it does not have the same wealth
of tools, but I believe OS/2 is now the best platform for enterprise
deployment of Java.
With 1998 approaching, imagine the progress of Java being made.
>
>> >almost no one supports, and a beta.
>>
>> These video drivers are ground breaking for their object oriented
>> design, speeds up Open32 support, and covers several popular video
>> cards.
>
>I know all about the Gradd drivers, but they are not in wide use; neither
>is Open32, so its potential is questionable. If someone like 3dfx-based
>card manufacturers adopted them, then I would say that this is a great
>thing. As it is, its not adding enough to the package.
IBM is moving towards hardware based OpenGL. It seems according to
their plans, they might require the more capable GRADD driver designs.
>
>> As for Smartsuite/97 beta, it's not that big a deal but at least that
>> adds some more applications to OS/2, including a native 123 and
>> Approach. And it is shipping by the way. You can order the beta on
>> CDROM from Indelible Blue, with no expiration on the beta except that
>> you just don't get full support and documentation. It's more than
>> workable.
>
>It is not shipping in the same sense as say Entrepreneur. OS/2 needs
>shipping finished apps, not betas. I agree that it adds something, but
>it's not enough. I'm not knocking Smartsuite, I just saying it is not a
>good indicator of IBM's support for OS/2.
Heck at least they intend to finish it. Kona is probably a better
indicator of IBM's support for both Java and OS/2.
>
>> >
>> >This shows how bad things how become.
>>
>> Shows you how bad your logic has become.
>
>How so Chris? Please explain the faults in my logic so I can see them. I
>see people tossing up the TCP/IP upgrade, Java, and Smartsuite like these
>things CLEARLY demostrate that OS/2 is doing great. It has gotten so bad
>that these trivial upgrades and a beta is the only card that a lot of
>people can play to show OS/2's status. I submit to you that a year ago,
>this would not be the case. One year ago when OS/2 Warp came out, several
>graphics packages, games, and such were in full developement and if the
>TCP/IP and Gradd updates were release, people would be clamoring for SIQ
>fixes and better driver support.
Trivial upgrades? TCP/IP 4.1, GRADD, Open32, and Java 1.1.4 reflects
deep changes in OS/2's interior not seen since OS/2 2.0. Remember
people saying that OS/2's kernel being frozen in 1996? Well, this is a
complete turnaround. These are changes applied to OS/2's kernel. Not
to mention onset rumors of a new journaling file system. (SMP is a
change, but you're just moving the Warp server kernel into the client.)
Last year, it looks like OS/2 development may have stopped, at least as
far as internal kernel or core level development goes. This year, the
exact opposite is happening. Core changes are being made.
People got their SIQ fix by the way, with Warp 4, but it's only as far
as IBM is willing to go without breaking applications like Galactic
Civilizations and Communications Manager/2, an important SNA
connectivity program for OS/2 crucial in big iron shops and vertical
markets.
As far as drivers are concerned, IBM has made more drivers in the last
few years than the entire history of OS/2 combined. I can even find
drivers for SiS shared memory SVGA-motherboard chipsets for OS/2. But
the greatest driver achievement would be GRADD because all future OS/2
graphics device driver development would be on GRADD. GRADD uses object
oriented techniques that will cut down OS/2 driver development. OS/2's
current driver model is cludgey. You got 16 bit PDDs for interrupt
driven devices, PMDDs for graphics and printer drivers, VDDs for
Win-OS/2. ADD eliminates them all (GRADD is merely the graphics
extension of ADD.)
Before, one can say OO in OS/2 lies in the surface only with SOM/WPS.
Now object orientation goes down deep into the core with ADD/GRADD.
ADD/GRADD is derived from concepts from Taligent and OS/2 microkernel.
Win-OS/2, Open32, any possible Win32 compatibility on OS/2 would require
GRADD. OS/2 VMs like Win-OS/2, DOS and Java will depend on the
ADD/GRADD foundation (GRADD will eliminate Win-OS/2 VDDs eventually, for
example.)
>
>Now, because their is so little happening, anything that IBM does is met
>with enthusiasm. Gradd and the TCP/IP stack won't help the fact that OS/2
>can't use those 120 meg floppy disk, or the new ZipPlus drive, or SB 64
>soundcards or $149 flatbed 24-bit color scanner I'm thinking about buying
>because there are no drivers. How is Java going to help this situation?
ADD/GRADD will help the situation because it makes drive development
much simpler. Of course, it's really up to the developers, but then
IBM has given them a much better tool than the PDD and
PMDD models. Complexity in dealing with OS/2's driver model has been an
obstacle in driver support for OS/2. A new design (and it
should have been done years ago admittedly) should go a long way. Do
note it helps IBM itself very much, since they are themselves writing a
lot of OS/2's drivers or in partnership with hardware firms.
One advantage of ADD/GRADD is that being objects, they can integrate
better with a Java native program, eventually even create Java based
drivers out of ADD and GRADD base classes.
>
>Show me the flaws in my logic.
>
And I just showed you major.
Rgds,
Chris
>> Rgds,
>>
>> Chris
Robato Yao
In <MPG.eeb9f035...@news1.mnsinc.com>, dmccoy@REMOVE_MEmnsinc.com (David H. McCoy) writes:
>In article <65r221$l...@news.seed.net.tw>, r...@mail.sysnet.net.tw says...
>> In message <MPG.eeab298b...@news1.mnsinc.com> -
>> dmccoy@REMOVE_MEmnsinc.com (David H. McCoy)Sat, 29 Nov 1997 23:16:18
>> -0500 writes:
>> Ż
>>
>> Ż> I simply think TCP/IP is the backbone of a network and the improvements
>> Ż> representative of the direction IBM is taking OS/2.
>>
>> ŻI'm not debating this. If MS or the Linux community released a TCP/IP
>> Żupgrade, people would download it, but it would hardly be the big news
>> Żthat some think it is here...
>>
>> It is big news because it demonstrates IBM's committment to the
>> present and future of OS/2, and it gives the lie to the claque of
>
>
>No. It's big news because theire is nothing else going on. That and
Nothing else is going on? What's in your head? The network stack and
the new device driver model are two fundamental pillars to the OS.
GRADD is not only unique for being object oriented in design, but also
for its support for OS/2 virtual machines like Win-OS/2. Thus it may
have importance even to Java VMs and possible if ever a Win32 VM on
OS/2.
There are other things going on, including SMP for the desktop client, a
possible new journaling file system, hardware accelerated OpenGL
support. OpenGL is going to be important for Java because I expect that
Java will be using it.
Networking is of course, now one of the most important pillars for an OS
ever.
Tell me again when and how core changes are not important.
Rgds,
Chris
>those Gradd drivers......
>
>> [RJ] OS/2 - Live it, or live with it.
>> rj friedman Team ABW
>
>
Scott Ashcraft
In article <MPG.eea30c65...@news1.mnsinc.com>,
dmccoy@REMOVE_MEmnsinc.com (David H. McCoy) wrote:
| It is truly sad to see people get such a hard-on for a TCP/IP stack,
| Java(In your case, for your THREE Java applications), video drivers that
| almost no one supports, and a beta.
Consider that OS/2 has been immune to most of the recent hacks such as OOB
(Winnuke) and Teardrop. Then consider that IBM is further enhancing their
already excellent stack. Then keep using the MS stack, and remember to
keep looking over your shoulder for the next DOS attack on your systems.
scott ashcraft | email: ra4...@email.sps.mot.com
software engineer | ph. : +1.512.933.3916
motorola mos3 cim | team os/2
| my opinions are my own
anti-spam enabled, remove @NOSPAM from my address when replying
Scott Ashcraft
In article <MPG.eea71e41...@news1.mnsinc.com>,
dmccoy@REMOVE_MEmnsinc.com (David H. McCoy) wrote:
| In article <348061...@halcyon.com>, dpet...@halcyon.com says...
|
| >
| > Corel wisely decided the Java paradigm did not allow for the bloated
| > office suite. There is activity at Corel to create these tools in a
| > manner better suited to Java. That is basically what they have said on
| > their web site at the time they withdrew the Corel Office Suite for
| > Java. They are quite right. I expect to see some quality stuff from them
| > for the Java environment and it won't be a worked over remake of the
| > Windows junk they currently ship.
| >
| > dp
| >
|
| One question, why do so many people believe that if a product is Windows,
| it is automatcally junk?
I'll tell you what I think. Most software, for any platform, is junk.
Then again, I fail to see where D.P. above states that all Windows software
is junk.
|
| Can any of your write better software?
What does that have to do with junky software?
I couldn't design a better car than a Yugo. That certainly doesn't keep
the Yugo from being a pile of junk.
| Do you think that all OS/2 or
| Linux, or whatever is quality?
Nope.
Scott Ashcraft
In article <MPG.eeab012e...@news1.mnsinc.com>,
dmccoy@REMOVE_MEmnsinc.com (David H. McCoy) wrote:
| In article <65q7h5$k...@lehi.kuentos.guam.net>, cro...@kuentos.guam.net
| says...
|
| > >Yep, I'm sure people are beating down doors to get the THE SAME THREE
| > >enhancments everyone keeps mentioning. I suprised you didn't mention
| > >Visual Age for Java instead of the WordPro beta, though. At least
| > >VisualAge is shipping.
| > >
| > >It is truly sad to see people get such a hard-on for a TCP/IP stack,
| >
| > This TCP/IP stack is now faster, more reliable, and has increased
| > security.
|
| How much faster? How much for reliable? If I've got a 33.6 modem, what
| kind of throughput can I expect? How exactly is it faster?
Well, I doubt it will be much faster for you, even if you did still run OS/2.
|
| >
| > >Java(In your case, for your THREE Java applications), video drivers that
| >
| > This Java is now the fastest for the Intel platform.
|
| I know. I still keep up, but seven percent is good for bragging rights
| and nothing else.
Funny how, now that OS/2 is ahead, the Windows Advocates (or the Anti-OS/2
Advocates) downplay the importance of being the fastest.
| I know all about the Gradd drivers, but they are not in wide use;
Duh. They're new.
| neither
| is Open32, so its potential is questionable.
Neither is the Pentium II. Its potential is questionable.
Neither is NT. Its potential is questionable.
| > Shows you how bad your logic has become.
|
| How so Chris? Please explain the faults in my logic so I can see them. I
| see people tossing up the TCP/IP upgrade, Java, and Smartsuite like these
| things CLEARLY demostrate that OS/2 is doing great.
No, people are tossing the up to CLEARLY demonstrate that IBM has not
abandoned OS/2, as badly as the Winvocates (for whatever reason) wish IBM
was.
| It has gotten so bad
| that these trivial upgrades and a beta is the only card that a lot of
| people can play to show OS/2's status.
There are certainly other indicators. Warpstock. IBM announcements.
Increased advertising.
Besides, what does it matter to you how OS/2 is doing?
| I submit to you that a year ago,
| this would not be the case. One year ago when OS/2 Warp came out,
Time warp?
| several
| graphics packages, games, and such were in full developement and if the
| TCP/IP and Gradd updates were release, people would be clamoring for SIQ
| fixes and better driver support.
I was here a year ago. There was no clamoring for a SIQ fix.
|
| Now, because their is so little happening, anything that IBM does is met
| with enthusiasm. Gradd and the TCP/IP stack won't help the fact that OS/2
| can't use those 120 meg floppy disk, or the new ZipPlus drive, or SB 64
| soundcards
Funny, the SB64 seems to work fine under OS/2, and there *are* SB64 drivers
for OS/2.
| or $149 flatbed 24-bit color scanner I'm thinking about buying
| because there are no drivers.
There is quite a bit of scanner driver support for OS/2. You just have to
buy the right ones.
| How is Java going to help this situation?
If OS/2 is the premier Java desktop platform, and Java takes off, then more
people will be tempted to run OS/2, which will result in better driver
support.
Bob O
On Sun, 30 Nov 1997 17:43:35, dmccoy@REMOVE_MEmnsinc.com (David H. McCoy)
wrote:
> In article <65r39b$pk9$1...@proxye1.san.rr.com>, sdenbes1@NOSPAM says...
>
> > [Joseph, you keep repeating that claim about MS's minimum hardware spec for
> > NT 5. It's false. NT5 does not require 64M of RAM. Please provide a URL, or
> > stop repeating it.]
> >
>
> Search Infoworld's site. I read that too, only it did not say minimum. It
> said recommend.
And I always consider the rule of thumb of taking the recommended number
and doubling it.
Required usually means just to boot up. Recommended usually means minimum
acceptable level of performance under any standard. Doubling the
recommended amount generally results in acceptable performance under most
standards.
No doubt we are talking 128 megabytes to get good performance in most uses.
boo...@ibm.net
on 12/01/97at 06:36 PM, the Great and Grand Wazir osb...@deletemeibm.net
(Bob O) said:
>Required usually means just to boot up. Recommended usually means
>minimum acceptable level of performance under any standard. Doubling
>the recommended amount generally results in acceptable performance under
>most standards.
>No doubt we are talking 128 megabytes to get good performance in most
>uses.
This is not an expensive proposition anymore. By 1999 memory is likely to
be in the 2 to 3 dollar range, so for under $400 you'll have 128 megs, no
problem.
otoh, it interested me that today I was asked to install a DOS menu and
take the automatic windows opening feature off a 486-66. I was given two
reasons. Three, actually. 1) "I only run three applications anyway, why
do I want to muck around with Windows?" 2) "That Windows is to F***ing
slow!" 3) "Man, I never know where I am with Windows." Frankly I was a
little surprised, afterall, windows is _the_ answer, right?
----------------------------------------------------
Booth Martin
---------------------------------------------------
David H. McCoy
In article <Yqzh521VLZKl-pn2-qFOj5Cufs5cq@slip129-37-55-102>,
osb...@deletemeibm.net says...
> On Sun, 30 Nov 1997 17:43:35, dmccoy@REMOVE_MEmnsinc.com (David H. McCoy)
> wrote:
>
> And I always consider the rule of thumb of taking the recommended number
> and doubling it.
>
> Required usually means just to boot up. Recommended usually means minimum
> acceptable level of performance under any standard. Doubling the
> recommended amount generally results in acceptable performance under most
> standards.
>
> No doubt we are talking 128 megabytes to get good performance in most uses.
>
> Bob O - Computing for fun
>
You never know. It took 64 megs to get good performance, to me, for both
OS/2 4.0 and NT 4.0. Besides, I'm not judging just commenting on what I've
read.
David H. McCoy
In article <ra4038-ya02408000...@newsgate.sps.mot.com>,
ra4038@NOSPAM says...
> In article <MPG.eeab012e...@news1.mnsinc.com>,
> dmccoy@REMOVE_MEmnsinc.com (David H. McCoy) wrote:
> | > security.
> |
> | How much faster? How much for reliable? If I've got a 33.6 modem, what
> | kind of throughput can I expect? How exactly is it faster?
>
> Well, I doubt it will be much faster for you, even if you did still run OS/2.
Okay, what kind of home user would benefit from the TCP/IP stack? I think
most us here are home users.
> |
> | >
> | > >Java(In your case, for your THREE Java applications), video drivers that
> | >
> | > This Java is now the fastest for the Intel platform.
> |
> | I know. I still keep up, but seven percent is good for bragging rights
> | and nothing else.
>
> Funny how, now that OS/2 is ahead, the Windows Advocates (or the Anti-OS/2
> Advocates) downplay the importance of being the fastest.
What's funny? I've never comment, until recenly, one way or another about
OS/2 speed. It's one of the fastest. Great. I don't think seven percent
is a big deal. Would you like for me to email you a copy of a letter I
sent to one of Infoworld's writers complaining when he was commenting
about how big a deal the Pentium Pro's 10% increase in speed was beause of
its bigger cache and additional $1000.
Now, if that Pentium or OS/2's JVM was fast enough to notice....That's why
I didn't care if I had EDO RAM. A %15 speed increase, to me, was nothing
to get excited about. For the record, since the memory place near me sold
EDO ram for a lower price than non-EDO, I did switch, over the course of
time.
> | I know all about the Gradd drivers, but they are not in wide use;
>
> Duh. They're new.
New my ass. Here is a quote form "Up and Running! OS/2 Warp version 4"
This is the users manual that came with Warp 4 back in November 1996.
Page 11 "Graphics Adapter Display Driver(GRADD) The new 32-bit Graphics
Adapter Display Driver(GRADD) model improves Presentation Manager
performance and substantially reduces an Independent Hardware Vendor's
development effort for display drivers."
Now, I tried these drivers, ONE YEAR AGO, and they were slower. It has
taken IBM, the creators, about a year to release ANY updates and I have
yet to hear of any card makers releasing GRADD driver DESPITE them being
available for ONE YEAR on OS/2 Warp 4 and before that OS/2 for the
PowerPC.
Now, Scott, these drivers are clearly not new, unless you think new is
something that is less than, say one year and a half.
Now please, PLEASE try to spin your way out of this.
> | neither
> | is Open32, so its potential is questionable.
>
> Neither is the Pentium II. Its potential is questionable.
> Neither is NT. Its potential is questionable.
What world are your from? Both NT and the Pentium II are in wide use, a
damn sight wider than Open32 for only SmartSuite is using. Remember that
company trying to create a Delphi clone. Tell them how great Open32 is.
> | > Shows you how bad your logic has become.
> |
> | How so Chris? Please explain the faults in my logic so I can see them. I
> | see people tossing up the TCP/IP upgrade, Java, and Smartsuite like these
> | things CLEARLY demostrate that OS/2 is doing great.
>
> No, people are tossing the up to CLEARLY demonstrate that IBM has not
> abandoned OS/2, as badly as the Winvocates (for whatever reason) wish IBM
> was.
No needs to wish anything bad on OS/2. IBM is doing a great job on its
own.
> | It has gotten so bad
> | that these trivial upgrades and a beta is the only card that a lot of
> | people can play to show OS/2's status.
>
> There are certainly other indicators. Warpstock. IBM announcements.
> Increased advertising.
I've got nothing against Warpstock. It's a shame the users have to step
in and do IBM's job, but Warpstock was a tiny minority of even the users
in this newsgroup. IBM runs more NT announcments than OS/2 and
considering IBM's NT solution ads, those crappy, blinking Internet banners
don't even rate.
> Besides, what does it matter to you how OS/2 is doing?
Why have I not sold my OS/2 software? I own almost everything, for
instance, Stardock put out for OS/2.
> | I submit to you that a year ago,
> | this would not be the case. One year ago when OS/2 Warp came out,
>
> Time warp?
> | several
> | graphics packages, games, and such were in full developement and if the
> | TCP/IP and Gradd updates were release, people would be clamoring for SIQ
> | fixes and better driver support.
>
> I was here a year ago. There was no clamoring for a SIQ fix.
Dude, considering you were saying that the Gradd drivers were new, I don't
think that you are a good source of infomation. Search DejaNews for SIQ
and you will see how many posts there are on the subject.
> |
> | Now, because their is so little happening, anything that IBM does is met
> | with enthusiasm. Gradd and the TCP/IP stack won't help the fact that OS/2
> | can't use those 120 meg floppy disk, or the new ZipPlus drive, or SB 64
> | soundcards
>
> Funny, the SB64 seems to work fine under OS/2, and there *are* SB64 drivers
> for OS/2.
Oh? Here is a list of OS/2 offerings for Creative Lab's site
aweos2.exe
File Date: 960722
File Size: 1,008,532 bytes
Description: AWEO-O2STD-1-US (Revision 1)
Sound Blaster 16/AWE32 drivers together with AWE Control panel for OS/2
Warp.
Fixes slowdown in MIDI playback.
Note: be sure to install this AFTER the programs in capos2.exe!
Included drivers:
SB16D2.SYS v3.20
SB16VSD.DLL v1.00
SBAWEVSD.DLL v1.10
CTCCPM.DLL v2.10
SBAWED2.SYS v2.20
vib16os2.exe
File Date: 950410
File Size: 52,466 bytes
Description: OS/2 2.0/2.11/3.0 Warp drivers for Sound Blaster cards based
on the Vibra 16 chip. Do not install this file unless your card is based
on the Vibra 16 chip. V16D-OS2-01-ENG.
sblw.exe
File Date: 940627
File Size: 74,083 bytes
Description: LinkWay driver for OS/2
sbmmpm.exe
File Date: 940627
File Size: 194,348 bytes
Description: MMPM Drivers for OS/2 v2.0
sbpmid.exe
File Date: 940627
File Size: 39,284 bytes
Description: OPL-2 and OPL-3 FM Drivers for Win-OS/2
Some fortunate people have been able to run the AWE64, minus its most
advanced abilities with AWE32 drivers. It seems that I've read more about
this subject than yourself.
> | or $149 flatbed 24-bit color scanner I'm thinking about buying
> | because there are no drivers.
> There is quite a bit of scanner driver support for OS/2. You just have to
> buy the right ones.
No. There is very little scanner support for OS/2. There is quite a bit
of support for NT and universal support for Windows 95. I've been looking
for a scanner. Have you? In addition, I am weary of buying the right
scanner for OS/2. I want to buy the right one for myself.
> | How is Java going to help this situation?
>
> If OS/2 is the premier Java desktop platform, and Java takes off, then more
> people will be tempted to run OS/2, which will result in better driver
> support.
This did not happen with Win-OS/2 support, Integrated Voice, OOP Gui
shell, 32 bit applications, long filenames, or preemptive multitasking.
Right now, OS/2 offers a meager seven percent advantage over Windows. How
many will leave Windows and all their applications for OS/2 with few
choices? And make no mistake, until the user base increases, third party
support will not materialize.
>
> scott ashcraft | email: ra4...@email.sps.mot.com
> software engineer | ph. : +1.512.933.3916
> motorola mos3 cim | team os/2
> | my opinions are my own
> anti-spam enabled, remove @NOSPAM from my address when replying
>
--
David H. McCoy
In article <3481d...@news2.ibm.net>, lno...@ibm.net says...
> David H. McCoy wrote:
> > =
>
> =2E
> > > It is big news because it demonstrates IBM's committment to the
> > > present and future of OS/2, and it gives the lie to the claque of
> > =
>
> > No. It's big news because theire is nothing else going on. That and
> > those Gradd drivers......
> > =
>
> > > [RJ] OS/2 - Live it, or live with it.
> > > rj friedman Team ABW
> > --
> > -----------------------------------
> > David H. McCoy
> > dmccoy@REMOVE_MEmnsinc.com
> > -----------------------------------
>
> No. It's big news because it DOES demonstrate IBM's commitment
> to the present and future of OS/2 - you just can't accept that,
> you WON'T accept that because you've walked away from OS/2
> and can't stand the fact that other more informed OS/2 users
> won't follow your pathetic lead. =
Whatever Lorenzo. You say I walked away from OS/2 like it was Christ or
something. I didn't walk away from anything. I picked another tool.
As for IBM's commitment, woe to OS/2 that an update TCP/IP stack and an
update video driver model that isn't well supported is an indication of
support.
>
> I've said it before and I'll say it again: Take your lousy MS
> propaganda and go elsewhere. We see you for what you
> are.
You don't see anything Lorenzo. Your emotions have blinded you.
> Lorenzo Nogasi,
> TEAMOS/2
David H. McCoy
In article <348219...@ibm.net>, jo...@ibm.net says...
> David H. McCoy wrote:
> >
> > In article <Pine.SGI.3.96.971129193601.6397B-
>
>
> > Some real OS/2 enhancements would warm my soul better than that dull
> > improvement, late Netscape beta, that Smartsuite based on last years
> > Windows version, IBM's own list of worthless promises like OS/2 PowerPC,
> > OpenDoc, and simultaneous Netscape release.
>
> The one thing that has still me using OS/2 today and optimistic is Java
> and OS/2's JVM support and VA Java.
> That's the only new thing I need and I have it.
Okay. That is a perfectly reasonable statement.
> > I've read the requirements. But since I don't have NT 5.0 and it is not
> > available, I'll worry about it later. If I fired off something about NT
> > 5.0's feature set you would attack because it's a early beta, so I'll
> > thank you to spare me your comments (that I'm already familar with) about
> > NT 5.0's resource requirements for the same reason.
>
> My comments on NT 5.0 are directed at MS's vision for NT, not the
> BETA-ALPHA. I think it's good for MS to be frank about the
> requirements. It's hard for some to accept but NT has always been a
> resource hog W.R.T. the prevailing PC configuration.
True. But I submit to you that OS/2 Warp 4.0 had similar appitites, at
least in my experience. Could you please explain what you think MS's
vision is, if it is other than MS's "take over the computer world and my
toaster" vision?
For the record, judging from their purchases, I think that this is the
case, and I don't like it. MS needs to be reined in.
> The requirements tells me where NT is going in the next few years.
> Since the client is supposed to be the main Windows desktop client, I am
> confident MS will have to change directions. NT 5.0 is too fat/costly
> for massive deployment in a company when sub $1000 computers are
> popular.
Well, I've never been talking about large deployments, but my needs as a
desktop. I just want a good versitile, stable, entertaining, development
platform. Huge rollouts are a different arguement entirely, and since my
HP at work does something on the surface to WSOD, I wouldn't disagree with
arguements for WSOD or thin-clients for business. For the home, at least
my home, today, I don't think much of thin clients.
> > As for what will be a milestone in software, who's to say? No matter what
> > it is it will run on Windows. You can be sure about that. And neither
> > you nor me will be able to see that seven percent performance difference.
>
> Milestones are not easy to predict or recognize but a thin, functional
> Java suite would be my pick. The fact IBM has so many partners signed
> up to use eSuite makes the pick easier. The ability to ship eSuite as a
> networked, cacjed or stand-alone package makes it is even more
> interesting.
>
> As for the the 7% advantage. I see it as a icon for IBM's effort into
> being competitive with OS/2.
>
I see it more as a show of commitment for Java which I've never
questioned, but for my home, I just can't see wanting a thin-client which
is why I switched. You would rather have a thin-client at home than a
standard PC?
David H. McCoy
> dmccoy@REMOVE_MEmnsinc.com (David H. McCoy) wrote:
> Consider that OS/2 has been immune to most of the recent hacks such as OOB
> (Winnuke) and Teardrop. Then consider that IBM is further enhancing their
> already excellent stack. Then keep using the MS stack, and remember to
> keep looking over your shoulder for the next DOS attack on your systems.
>
>
> scott ashcraft | email: ra4...@email.sps.mot.com
Well, Scott, since I've yet to get hit by Winnuke or other such attacks,
but I have suffered from little software choices, WPS hangs, no new games,
and bad device driver support, I'll take my chances.
David H. McCoy
In article <65trn8$b...@lehi.kuentos.guam.net>, cro...@kuentos.guam.net
says...
> In <MPG.eeb9f035...@news1.mnsinc.com>, dmccoy@REMOVE_MEmnsinc.com (David H. McCoy) writes:
> >In article <65r221$l...@news.seed.net.tw>, r...@mail.sysnet.net.tw says...
> >> In message <MPG.eeab298b...@news1.mnsinc.com> -
> >> dmccoy@REMOVE_MEmnsinc.com (David H. McCoy)Sat, 29 Nov 1997 23:16:18
> >> -0500 writes:
> >> Ż
> >>
>
In an attempt to limit my time answering these post, I'll point you to
that earlier thread for my response to why I don't think that the Gradd
driver, which were released about a year ago with Warp 4.0 is not a
revolutionary step for OS/2 and a good indicator of IBM's support, but
rather an standard upgrade of an existing system.
David H. McCoy
In article <65t45e$7...@lehi.kuentos.guam.net>, cro...@kuentos.guam.net
says...
> In <MPG.eeab012e...@news1.mnsinc.com>, dmccoy@REMOVE_MEmnsinc.com (David H. McCoy) writes:
> >In article <65q7h5$k...@lehi.kuentos.guam.net>, cro...@kuentos.guam.net
> >>
> >> This TCP/IP stack is now faster, more reliable, and has increased
> >> security.
> >
> >How much faster? How much for reliable? If I've got a 33.6 modem, what
> >kind of throughput can I expect? How exactly is it faster?
>
> I can only comment from testers.
>
Well, there you go. Did the testers offer anything besides its faster.
Such a statement reminds me of the fixpack days when someone said "after
the fixpack 5, Neologic newsreader was a different shade of blue.
Everything feels faster and snappier."
Although in this case, I would have thought any speed gains would be easy
to quantify.
> >
> >>
> >> >Java(In your case, for your THREE Java applications), video drivers that
> >>
> >> This Java is now the fastest for the Intel platform.
> >
> >I know. I still keep up, but seven percent is good for bragging rights
> >and nothing else.
>
> It shows the enormous progress IBM is making on OS/2's Java. OS/2 is
> way behind in Java speed circa the end of 1996. In the end of 1997, it
> is now ahead, overtaking the fastest Java on the Intel platform. That's
> progress faster than Microsoft's, dude. While Microsoft is in a deep
> battle with Sun, IBM will continue to progress and progress Java on
> OS/2. I don't believe OS/2 has achieved the status of being the best
> development platform for Java yet, as it does not have the same wealth
> of tools, but I believe OS/2 is now the best platform for enterprise
> deployment of Java.
First, it is only seven percent, which is something that even "feels
faster and snappier" cannot register. Second, a point, I've mentioned
before, Microsoft is not the only Java game in town. There are at least
three others and IBM is working with Netscape and Sun to optimized Java.
Does it not stand to reason that Windows will benefit from this game. In
addition, most of IBM's Java technologies are still Windows only, like
WebRunner, Bean Machine, even their JavaPhone program, so at least for
now, some in IBM do not share your assessment of what is the best platform
for enterprise deployment. I'm not sure, but I don't believe IBM's newest
tool Visual Age E-suite is available for OS/2.
Besides, the only reason I'm even talking about Java is because others
keep bring it up. I've got nothing against Java. I do have problems with
IBM the fact that IBM shows that it knows how to support a product WHEN it
wants to. Java is proof of that. OS/2 has never been supported that way
Java has. Imagaine if part of IBM's 24 hour world wide Java developmetn
team was put to releasing Visual Age for C++ 4.0, or writing some
applications and device drivers.
> >I know all about the Gradd drivers, but they are not in wide use; neither
> >is Open32, so its potential is questionable. If someone like 3dfx-based
> >card manufacturers adopted them, then I would say that this is a great
> >thing. As it is, its not adding enough to the package.
>
> IBM is moving towards hardware based OpenGL. It seems according to
> their plans, they might require the more capable GRADD driver designs.
I can accept that. I'm still keeping up with OS/2. Where have you read
this?
>
> >
> >> As for Smartsuite/97 beta, it's not that big a deal but at least that
> >> adds some more applications to OS/2, including a native 123 and
> >> Approach. And it is shipping by the way. You can order the beta on
> >> CDROM from Indelible Blue, with no expiration on the beta except that
> >> you just don't get full support and documentation. It's more than
> >> workable.
> >
> >It is not shipping in the same sense as say Entrepreneur. OS/2 needs
> >shipping finished apps, not betas. I agree that it adds something, but
> >it's not enough. I'm not knocking Smartsuite, I just saying it is not a
> >good indicator of IBM's support for OS/2.
>
> Heck at least they intend to finish it. Kona is probably a better
> indicator of IBM's support for both Java and OS/2.
Maybe. Don't get me wrong, I hope they release the thing, because OS/2
needs a suite, but they supported OpenDoc and Som, but I don't see them in
wide use. How exactly is Kona a demo of IBM's support for OS/2?
>
>
> >
> >> >
> >> >This shows how bad things how become.
> >>
> >> Shows you how bad your logic has become.
> >
> >How so Chris? Please explain the faults in my logic so I can see them. I
> >see people tossing up the TCP/IP upgrade, Java, and Smartsuite like these
> >things CLEARLY demostrate that OS/2 is doing great. It has gotten so bad
> >that these trivial upgrades and a beta is the only card that a lot of
> >people can play to show OS/2's status. I submit to you that a year ago,
> >this would not be the case. One year ago when OS/2 Warp came out, several
> >graphics packages, games, and such were in full developement and if the
> >TCP/IP and Gradd updates were release, people would be clamoring for SIQ
> >fixes and better driver support.
>
> Trivial upgrades? TCP/IP 4.1, GRADD, Open32, and Java 1.1.4 reflects
> deep changes in OS/2's interior not seen since OS/2 2.0. Remember
> people saying that OS/2's kernel being frozen in 1996? Well, this is a
> complete turnaround.
How do you know that TCP/IP 4.1 is a kernel change. I don't believe that
any of these are changes to OS/2's kernel. You don't need to change to
kernel to enhance video drivers. Gradd, Java, and Open32 were released
with Warp 4.0. These are not new, merely enhancements to existing systems.
Even OS/2's TCP/IP stack has been around for years as a separate package.
Could you point to to any documents that say that OS/2's kernel was
enhanced to support these external systems?
> These are changes applied to OS/2's kernel. Not
> to mention onset rumors of a new journaling file system. (SMP is a
> change, but you're just moving the Warp server kernel into the client.)
> Last year, it looks like OS/2 development may have stopped, at least as
> far as internal kernel or core level development goes. This year, the
> exact opposite is happening. Core changes are being made.
How so? You've got rumors and nothing more. I still don't see how any of
the enhancements you've mentioned affect the kernel. John Thompson stated
that the kernel would be frozen, but other systems would be enhanced. He
mentioned the TCP/IP system by name I believe.
> People got their SIQ fix by the way, with Warp 4, but it's only as far
> as IBM is willing to go without breaking applications like Galactic
> Civilizations and Communications Manager/2, an important SNA
> connectivity program for OS/2 crucial in big iron shops and vertical
> markets.
Problem is that it does work very well. I had Warp 4.0 and still had the
problem which is why many others and myself purchased Process Commander or
still used Watchcat.
> As far as drivers are concerned, IBM has made more drivers in the last
> few years than the entire history of OS/2 combined. I can even find
> drivers for SiS shared memory SVGA-motherboard chipsets for OS/2. But
> the greatest driver achievement would be GRADD because all future OS/2
> graphics device driver development would be on GRADD. GRADD uses object
> oriented techniques that will cut down OS/2 driver development. OS/2's
> current driver model is cludgey. You got 16 bit PDDs for interrupt
> driven devices, PMDDs for graphics and printer drivers, VDDs for
> Win-OS/2. ADD eliminates them all (GRADD is merely the graphics
> extension of ADD.)
Come on Chris. I problably read the same literature you did on Gradd
drivers and while I'm no expert, I know full well of their nature. The
problem is that they've been out over a year and the number of drivers
available for new cards have not kept pace. Also, saying that IBM has
made more drivers in the last few years is like me saying that my first
summer programming gig that I had when I was in school that paid $8.00 and
hour was the most money I've ever earned. It's all relative and with
OS/2's previous driver support there was no where to go but up.
> Before, one can say OO in OS/2 lies in the surface only with SOM/WPS.
> Now object orientation goes down deep into the core with ADD/GRADD.
> ADD/GRADD is derived from concepts from Taligent and OS/2 microkernel.
> Win-OS/2, Open32, any possible Win32 compatibility on OS/2 would require
> GRADD. OS/2 VMs like Win-OS/2, DOS and Java will depend on the
> ADD/GRADD foundation (GRADD will eliminate Win-OS/2 VDDs eventually, for
> example.)
>
I agree that the WPS is the picture of elegance, but these are still just
enhancements to Warp 4.0's existing system and not revolutionary changes.
Since Open32 and Gradd were so new, it stands to reason that bug fixes and
optimizations of some kind where due. But again, it's not that big.
>
> >
> >Now, because their is so little happening, anything that IBM does is met
> >with enthusiasm. Gradd and the TCP/IP stack won't help the fact that OS/2
> >can't use those 120 meg floppy disk, or the new ZipPlus drive, or SB 64
> >soundcards or $149 flatbed 24-bit color scanner I'm thinking about buying
> >because there are no drivers. How is Java going to help this situation?
>
> ADD/GRADD will help the situation because it makes drive development
> much simpler. Of course, it's really up to the developers, but then
> IBM has given them a much better tool than the PDD and
> PMDD models. Complexity in dealing with OS/2's driver model has been an
> obstacle in driver support for OS/2. A new design (and it
> should have been done years ago admittedly) should go a long way. Do
> note it helps IBM itself very much, since they are themselves writing a
> lot of OS/2's drivers or in partnership with hardware firms.
But after a year, we still have yet to see the results of this labor.
When do you think we will see the number of drivers reflect this ease of
development?
> One advantage of ADD/GRADD is that being objects, they can integrate
> better with a Java native program, eventually even create Java based
> drivers out of ADD and GRADD base classes.
Again, you HOPE that this is the outcome. I remember thinking the same
thing, one year ago when OS/2 Warp 4.0 came out, namely that soon drivers
will abound.
I'm still waiting.........
> >
> >Show me the flaws in my logic.
> >
>
> And I just showed you major.
I don't know. I don't think you did. In summary, you feel that OS/2's
Gradd device drivers, technology that was born out of the failed OS/2 for
PPC and integrated into OS/2 Warp 4.0 about a year ago, represent a major
leap in both IBM's support and OS/2 viability because of a fixpack
enhancement despite the fact that this technology has existed for what two
years in general, over a year on OS/2 4.0 and in all this, there are still
VERY FEW drivers that support this model.
No. I don't think you demostrated any flaws in my reasoning, but I believe
that I've showed significant holes in yours.
Dennis Peterson
Bob O wrote:
>
> On Tue, 2 Dec 1997 01:06:38, boo...@ibm.net wrote:
>
> > on 12/01/97at 06:36 PM, the Great and Grand Wazir osb...@deletemeibm.net
> > (Bob O) said:
> >
> >
> > >minimum acceptable level of performance under any standard. Doubling
> > >the recommended amount generally results in acceptable performance under
> > >most standards.
> >
> > >No doubt we are talking 128 megabytes to get good performance in most
> > >uses.
> >
> > be in the 2 to 3 dollar range, so for under $400 you'll have 128 megs, no
> > problem.
> >
> > otoh, it interested me that today I was asked to install a DOS menu and
> > take the automatic windows opening feature off a 486-66. I was given two
> > reasons. Three, actually. 1) "I only run three applications anyway, why
> > do I want to muck around with Windows?" 2) "That Windows is to F***ing
> > slow!" 3) "Man, I never know where I am with Windows." Frankly I was a
> > little surprised, afterall, windows is _the_ answer, right?
>
> computers in the early 80's and had a Commodore. Later he went to DOS, and
> finally OS/2. I couldn't get him the least bit interested in a GUI and
> especially Windows. In 1991 I set him up with a Windows system and Windows
> was like poison to him.
>
> He liked his computing linear style. Quick loading programs and files,
> efficient 1 key menu systems, etc. I like GUIs, but sometimes I don't.
> Moving back and forth between the keyboard and the mouse or having to kill
> the tab key to get anywhere is a joke. I am not sure the GUI was the best
> idea for anything. Certainly, methodical jobs are better done on a
> character-based interface. GUIs, OTOH, are nice for presenting you with
> visual cues when the job is diverse. However, if more work had been put
> into the character-based interface to improve fonts and resolutions, and
> windowing software, much of what is neat about GUIs wouldn't seem so neat.
>
> When evaluating what pushed Windows to where it is, one has to really think
> it was consolidated driver support and especially video standards between
> applications that really set the tone.
>
> Bob O - Computing for fun
It was the solitair game -- people couldn't get enough of it. Having
animated card backs was the turning point.
dp