EMM386 Questions
Tim Judd
I recently posted a start of a new thread, about MSClient and memory
questions.
Along the same line, I learned some new things this evening... Even
though I have 512MB of memory, the "loadhigh" looks to UMB first, and if
it can't fill it there, throws it to conventional. I have well over 500
MB of identified memory (mem.exe) but why is it loading to conventional?
The main culprit, as I see it, is EMM386.. what a beast.
I have memory addresses D000 - DFFF (as well as...) E000 - EFFF free.
Verified by third party software and MS MSD.EXE
So I told CONFIG.SYS to load EMM386.EXE I=D000-DFFF I=E000-EFFF
Without adding the D range, I have 123KB of upper memory available.
When adding the D range, I only gain 5KB, total of 128KB.
That math doesn't add up to me. one bank gives me well over 120K, the
other gives less than 8K more!
I am clueless about the EMM386 arguments... MSClient's netbind.com
freezes the computer if the syntax isn't right under EMM386.
Can somebody spend a few moments helping me out? It seems logical that
I can obtain around 250K of Upper by allowing both D and E banks.
Thanks alot, much appreciated.
Tim Judd
Mike Walsh
Most of your memory is extended memory, which DOS will usually not use to load drivers and programs. Loadhigh will use upper memory if enough contiguous upper memory is available; if not it will use conventional memory.
Your Config.sys should have NOEMS on the emm386 line, also DOS=HIGH and DOS=UMB. Some drivers (netbind.com?) must have upper memory blocks reserved, otherwise no memory needs to be excluded in emm386.
--
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Mike Walsh
West Palm Beach, Florida, U.S.A.
Rick
Which version of DOS are you using? DOS6 and it's memory management
doesn't play nicely on machines with more than 64MB RAM.
Tim Judd
> Most of your memory is extended memory, which DOS will usually not use to load drivers and programs. Loadhigh will use upper memory if enough contiguous upper memory is available; if not it will use conventional memory.
> Your Config.sys should have NOEMS on the emm386 line, also DOS=HIGH and DOS=UMB. Some drivers (netbind.com?) must have upper memory blocks reserved, otherwise no memory needs to be excluded in emm386.
OK, so I ran a little test. IDENTICAL configuration except this one
i'll paste here has no EMM386 loading...
Memory Type Total Used Free
---------------- -------- -------- --------
Conventional 640K 173K 467K
Upper 0K 0K 0K
Reserved 0K 0K 0K
Extended (XMS) 523,200K 10,304K 512,896K
---------------- -------- -------- --------
Total memory 523,840K 10,477K 513,363K
Total under 1 MB 640K 173K 467K
Largest executable program size 467K (478,144 bytes)
Largest free upper memory block 0K (0 bytes)
MS-DOS is resident in the high memory area.
the reason Extended has 10MB used is that there is a 8MB ramdisk on it.
I have everything load high..
When you have EMM386 enabled, it only checks the UMB's and then goes to
conventional, why not go to Extended?
This is why I can't understand why sending everything high gives me
~380K free conventional.
I've tried NOEMS on it, and it doesn't increase my UMB size. I still
only get 123K - 128K in size.
Does EMM386 tell the driver/app to forcibly load low when there's no
free UMB's, even if there's plenty of Extended?
Thanks again, and please help me understand.
Tim Judd
Which one should I use?
I have the original DOS6.22 installation media, I have Win95 & 98 (NT
and 2k don't have boot disks, not mentioned)
I read once before something about 64MB RAM.. can you elaborate some
more, please?
Mike Walsh
I have 512 MB in my home computer. DOS6.2 recognizes 64 MB. DOS7.1 recognizes 512 MB. Also, DOS7.1 can access a FAT32 partition, earlier versions can't. Alas, no version of MSDOS supports long filenames.
Tim Judd wrote:
>
> I read once before something about 64MB RAM.. can you elaborate some
> more, please?
--
Tim Judd
> I have 512 MB in my home computer. DOS6.2 recognizes 64 MB. DOS7.1 recognizes 512 MB. Also, DOS7.1 can access a FAT32 partition, earlier versions can't. Alas, no version of MSDOS supports long filenames.
>
> Tim Judd wrote:
>
>>I read once before something about 64MB RAM.. can you elaborate some
>>more, please?
>
>
At least, not with any ouside applications/products (not from microsoft)
So.. what you're saying is that I need DOS7.1 (maybe DOS7, Win95?) in
order to access the memory. yes.. I'm using a Win98 boot disk (aka DOS7.1)
Any other tips, good sir Mike?
Thanks!
Mike Walsh
DOS was designed to run with 1 MB memory. Real mode drivers must run in the first 1 MB (conventional or upper memory) unless you have a memory manager such as QEMM that will map them to extended memory (usually using extended memory as DPMS or expanded memory).
Run Mem /C and post the results here so we can see what you have. Also post your Config.sys and Autoexec.bat
--
Tim Judd
> DOS was designed to run with 1 MB memory. Real mode drivers must run in the first 1 MB (conventional or upper memory) unless you have a memory manager such as QEMM that will map them to extended memory (usually using extended memory as DPMS or expanded memory).
>
> Run Mem /C and post the results here so we can see what you have. Also post your Config.sys and Autoexec.bat
I've attached 4 files, MEM_D000.TXT is when I have EMM386 include
D000-DFFF range; MEM_E000.TXT is when I have EMM386 not implicitly
include D000-DFFF. Of course you know what CONFIG.SYS and AUTOEXEC.BAT is.
The attachments probably thow themselves at the end of the article.
I checked the details of both files, and I only obtain 16 bytes
additional memory when using the D000-DFFF range (see for yourself, if
you'd like) sitting under 'free.'
Thanks (I am purposely keeping past conversation for archival and search
hits if anyone else has this problem).
Mike Walsh
I booted with a DOS7 (Win95) floppy and found that is does support 512 MB memory.
Besides memory and hard drive support there are other differences among DOS versions. Newer versions use slightly more memory than older versions. DOS6.x puts buffers in conventional memory. DOS7.x puts buffers in upper memory so you can e.g. use 99 buffers instead of Smartdrv (some utilities will not work with Smartdrv) and still have more conventional memory available.
--
Mike Walsh
The numbers for upper memory are the same whether or not you list D000-DFFF to be included, which means that this range is probably always included in available upper memory. If you add up the memory used by devices in conventional memory the total is 266,176. This is different from the amount in the memory summary by 144 bytes in one case and 128 bytes in the other. This is not unusual and I don't know why the numbers don't match.
When you use Smartdrv you should reduce the number of buffers; try Buffers=8 (you could probably use as few as 2). You shouldn't need to load Ifshlp.sys if you are not running windows. You will need to hide it to keep it from loading automatically; rename it or move it out of the windows directory. You can free up another 5K of conventional memory by using the 5K available in upper memory. Try loading large drives first, e.g. Smartdrv or Mscdex at the beginning of Autoexec.bat.
> Modules using memory below 1 MB:
>
> Name Total Conventional Upper Memory
> -------- ---------------- ---------------- ----------------
> SYSTEM 18,288 (18K) 10,608 (10K) 7,680 (8K)
> HIMEM 1,168 (1K) 1,168 (1K) 0 (0K)
> EMM386 4,320 (4K) 4,320 (4K) 0 (0K)
> IFSHLP 3,968 (4K) 3,968 (4K) 0 (0K)
> UMB 960 (1K) 272 (0K) 688 (1K)
> TCPTSR 76,784 (75K) 76,784 (75K) 0 (0K)
> TINYRFC 18,496 (18K) 272 (0K) 18,224 (18K)
> NMTSR 6,160 (6K) 6,160 (6K) 0 (0K)
> REDIR 103,248 (101K) 87,200 (85K) 16,048 (16K)
> MSCDEX 28,032 (27K) 28,032 (27K) 0 (0K)
> SMARTDRV 30,464 (30K) 30,464 (30K) 0 (0K)
> MOUSE 17,088 (17K) 16,928 (17K) 160 (0K)
> OAKCDROM 36,064 (35K) 0 (0K) 36,064 (35K)
> COMMAND 7,168 (7K) 0 (0K) 7,168 (7K)
> XMSDSK 688 (1K) 0 (0K) 688 (1K)
> PROTMAN 400 (0K) 0 (0K) 400 (0K)
> DM9PCI 30,800 (30K) 0 (0K) 30,800 (30K)
> TCPDRV 1,328 (1K) 0 (0K) 1,328 (1K)
> NEMM 672 (1K) 0 (0K) 672 (1K)
> Free 394,640 (385K) 389,040 (380K) 5,600 (5K)
>
> Memory Summary:
>
> Type of Memory Total Used Free
> ---------------- ----------- ----------- -----------
> Conventional 655,360 266,320 389,040
> Upper 125,520 119,920 5,600
> Reserved 0 0 0
> Extended (XMS) 535,631,280 11,323,824 524,307,456
> ---------------- ----------- ----------- -----------
> Total memory 536,412,160 11,710,064 524,702,096
>
> Total under 1 MB 780,880 386,240 394,640
>
> Largest executable program size 388,720 (380K)
> Largest free upper memory block 5,376 (5K)
> MS-DOS is resident in the high memory area.
>
> >
> Modules using memory below 1 MB:
>
> Name Total Conventional Upper Memory
> -------- ---------------- ---------------- ----------------
> SYSTEM 18,288 (18K) 10,608 (10K) 7,680 (8K)
> HIMEM 1,168 (1K) 1,168 (1K) 0 (0K)
> EMM386 4,320 (4K) 4,320 (4K) 0 (0K)
> IFSHLP 3,968 (4K) 3,968 (4K) 0 (0K)
> UMB 960 (1K) 272 (0K) 688 (1K)
> TCPTSR 76,784 (75K) 76,784 (75K) 0 (0K)
> TINYRFC 18,496 (18K) 272 (0K) 18,224 (18K)
> NMTSR 6,160 (6K) 6,160 (6K) 0 (0K)
> REDIR 103,248 (101K) 87,200 (85K) 16,048 (16K)
> MSCDEX 28,032 (27K) 28,032 (27K) 0 (0K)
> SMARTDRV 30,464 (30K) 30,464 (30K) 0 (0K)
> MOUSE 17,088 (17K) 16,928 (17K) 160 (0K)
> OAKCDROM 36,064 (35K) 0 (0K) 36,064 (35K)
> COMMAND 7,168 (7K) 0 (0K) 7,168 (7K)
> XMSDSK 688 (1K) 0 (0K) 688 (1K)
> PROTMAN 400 (0K) 0 (0K) 400 (0K)
> DM9PCI 30,800 (30K) 0 (0K) 30,800 (30K)
> TCPDRV 1,328 (1K) 0 (0K) 1,328 (1K)
> NEMM 672 (1K) 0 (0K) 672 (1K)
> Free 394,656 (385K) 389,056 (380K) 5,600 (5K)
>
> Memory Summary:
>
> Type of Memory Total Used Free
> ---------------- ----------- ----------- -----------
> Conventional 655,360 266,304 389,056
> Upper 125,520 119,920 5,600
> Reserved 0 0 0
> Extended (XMS) 535,631,280 11,323,824 524,307,456
> ---------------- ----------- ----------- -----------
> Total memory 536,412,160 11,710,048 524,702,112
>
> Total under 1 MB 780,880 386,224 394,656
>
> Largest executable program size 388,896 (380K)
> Largest free upper memory block 5,392 (5K)
> MS-DOS is resident in the high memory area.
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> [MENU]
> MENUITEM=MS-NET,Load MSClient at boot
> MENUITEM=NODRANGE,Load MSClient (Excluding D000 range)
> MENUITEM=PACKET,Load Packet Driver at boot
> MENUITEM=MS-DOS,No Network Configuration
> MENUITEM=CLEAN,No Network or Applications
> MENUDEFAULT=MS-DOS,8
>
> [MS-NET]
> DEVICE=\DOS\SYS\HIMEM.SYS /TESTMEM:ON
> DEVICE=\DOS\SYS\EMM386.EXE VERBOSE I=D000-DFFF I=E000-EFFF FRAME=NONE NOEMS
> DOS=HIGH,UMB
> DEVICE=\NET\IFSHLP.SYS
> DEVICEHIGH=\DOS\SYS\OAKCDROM.SYS /D:IDECD001
> FILES=30
> STACKS=9,256
> LASTDRIVE=Z
>
> [NODRANGE]
> DEVICE=\DOS\SYS\HIMEM.SYS /TESTMEM:OFF
> DEVICE=\DOS\SYS\EMM386.EXE VERBOSE FRAME=NONE I=E000-EFFF NOEMS
> DOS=HIGH,UMB
> DEVICE=\NET\IFSHLP.SYS
> DEVICEHIGH=\DOS\SYS\OAKCDROM.SYS /D:IDECD001
> FILES=30
> STACKS=9,256
> LASTDRIVE=Z
>
> [PACKET]
> DEVICE=\DOS\SYS\HIMEM.SYS /TESTMEM:ON
> DOS=HIGH,UMB
> DEVICEHIGH=\DOS\SYS\OAKCDROM.SYS /D:IDECD001
> FILES=30
> LASTDRIVE=Z
>
> [MS-DOS]
> DEVICE=\DOS\SYS\HIMEM.SYS /TESTMEM:ON
> DOS=HIGH,UMB
> DEVICEHIGH=\DOS\SYS\OAKCDROM.SYS /D:IDECD001
> FILES=30
> LASTDRIVE=Z
>
> [CLEAN]
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> @ECHO OFF
> IF "%CONFIG%"=="CLEAN" GOTO CLEAN
> LH \DOS\XMSDSK.EXE 8192 /Y R:
> MKDIR R:\TMP
> SET TMP=R:\TMP
> SET TEMP=R:\TMP
> GOTO %CONFIG%
> :MS-NET
> ECHO Extracting MSClient...
> MKDIR R:\NET
> SET PATH=R:\NET
> \DOS\PKUNZIP.EXE \ARCHIVES.ZIP\MSNET.ZIP R:\NET >NUL
> COPY \NET\HOSTS R:\NET\HOSTS >NUL
> COPY \NET\LMHOSTS R:\NET\LMHOSTS >NUL
> COPY \NET\SYSTEM.INI R:\NET\SYSTEM.INI >NUL
> R:\NET\net initialize
> R:\NET\netbind.com
> R:\NET\umb.com
> R:\NET\tcptsr.exe
> R:\NET\tinyrfc.exe
> R:\NET\nmtsr.exe
> R:\NET\emsbfr.exe
> R:\NET\net start
> GOTO MS-DOS
> :NODRANGE
> ECHO Extracting MSClient...
> MKDIR R:\NET
> SET PATH=R:\NET
> \DOS\PKUNZIP.EXE \ARCHIVES.ZIP\MSNET.ZIP R:\NET >NUL
> COPY \NET\HOSTS R:\NET\HOSTS >NUL
> COPY \NET\LMHOSTS R:\NET\LMHOSTS >NUL
> COPY \NET\SYSTEM.INI R:\NET\SYSTEM.INI >NUL
> R:\NET\net initialize
> R:\NET\netbind.com
> R:\NET\umb.com
> R:\NET\tcptsr.exe
> R:\NET\tinyrfc.exe
> R:\NET\nmtsr.exe
> R:\NET\emsbfr.exe
> R:\NET\net start
> GOTO MS-DOS
> :PACKET
> MKDIR R:\NET
> SET PATH=R:\NET
> ECHO Extracting Packet Driver...
> \DOS\PKUNZIP.EXE \ARCHIVES.ZIP\MSNET.ZIP DM9PCIPD.COM R:\NET >NUL
> LH R:\NET\DM9PCIPD.COM 0x60
> :MS-DOS
> LH \DOS\MSCDEX.EXE /D:IDECD001
> ECHO Extracting MS-DOS tools...
> MKDIR R:\DOS
> SET PATH=%PATH%;R:\DOS
> \DOS\PKUNZIP.EXE \ARCHIVES.ZIP\MSDOS.ZIP R:\DOS >NUL
> LH R:\DOS\SMARTDRV.EXE C+
> LH R:\DOS\MOUSE.COM
> :TRYOUT
> :CLEAN
> rem CLS
> SET PATH=%PATH%;C:\WINDOWS\COMMAND
Joe Batch
Since you have more than 64MB RAM installed, you can just copy himem.sys
and emm386.exe from a Windows 4.1 runing system or installation CD.
While you are at it, you might try the newer version of smartdrv.exe
(I hear it is improved). The newer mem.exe will report more than 64MB
if there is more, but will need to be fixed (patched) to run or you
will need to use setver.exe (ugh).
MS-DOS 6.22 (memory footprint)
HIMEM 1,120
EMM386 4,144
SMARTDRV 29,024
MS-DOS 7.10 (memory footprint)
HIMEM 1,120
EMM386 5,344
SMARTDRV 29,120
Tim Judd
>
> The numbers for upper memory are the same whether or not you list
> D000-DFFF to be included, which means that this range is probably always
> included in available upper memory. If you add up the memory used by
> devices in conventional memory the total is 266,176. This is different
> from the amount in the memory summary by 144 bytes in one case and 128
> bytes in the other. This is not unusual and I don't know why the numbers
> don't match. When you use Smartdrv you should reduce the number of
> buffers; try Buffers=8 (you could probably use as few as 2). You shouldn't
> need to load Ifshlp.sys if you are not running windows. You will need to
> hide it to keep it from loading automatically; rename it or move it out of
> the windows directory. You can free up another 5K of conventional memory
> by using the 5K available in upper memory. Try loading large drives first,
> e.g. Smartdrv or Mscdex at the beginning of Autoexec.bat.
Thr reason I thought it wasn't included was that with the "default" EMM386
setup, running MSD.EXE, it lists the D block as empty, nothing. When
including it, it throws some identification into the D block.
I'll drop the smartdrv buffers (via CONFIG.SYS BUFFERS=?). When I installed
the MSClient, it always puts the IFSHLP.SYS by itself into the system.. I
removed it and it barfs. (error 2568 if I recall correctly). I've also
noted that if I load IFSHLP high, the MSClient fails to boot (can't find it
or something) when it tries to INITialize.
One other website made mention that the order that they're loaded makes a
BIG difference; I hadn't thought about it before.. but I can see why now.
Anyone else know of a CD-ROM/Extension that takes less memory than
OAKCDROM/MSCDEX ?
All I have are generic EIDE CD/DVD/RW drives.. any suggestions welcome.
Once again, mike.. thanks.
Tim
<SNIPPED FILE LISTINGS>
Joe Batch
> I've also
> noted that if I load IFSHLP high, the MSClient fails to boot (can't find it
> or something) when it tries to INITialize.
Good to know.
> One other website made mention that the order that they're loaded makes a
> BIG difference; I hadn't thought about it before.. but I can see why now.
>
> Anyone else know of a CD-ROM/Extension that takes less memory than
> OAKCDROM/MSCDEX ?
>
> All I have are generic EIDE CD/DVD/RW drives.. any suggestions welcome.
= CD-ROM drivers =
This one works on many if not most CD drives. DMA and Ultra DMA Bus Master
transfer mode is supported.
hxcd-rom.zip 50,629 October 21, 1998
Cdrom.sys, install.exe, readme.txt; fast loading generic CD-ROM driver
http://purl.oclc.org/net/Batfiles/download/hxcd-rom.zip
http://www.driverguide.com/guide/search.htm username: drivers, password: all
http://www.bootdisk.com/kay/cdromsys.exe Collection Of 5 Standard IDE Drivers
http://digilander.libero.it/pnavato/drivers/
http://www.pocketec.net/downloads/duse_4_4.zip DOS USB driver (USB 1.1 & 2.0 / OHCI / UHCI / EHCI)The driver supports the following devices: - USB ZIP drives - USB Hard disk - USB Super Floppy/HiFD drives - USB CD-ROM - USB MO drives
bud
'Lo Tim:
Group: comp.os.msdos.misc Date: Wed, Jun 30, 2004, 4:33pm (CDT-1) From:
tju...@hotmail.com (Tim Judd)
script:
>One other website made mention that
>the order that they're loaded makes a
>BIG difference; I hadn't thought about
>it before.. but I can see why now.
Loadhi cannot break drivers, progs, etc., into pieces. With your
current CONFIG.SYS there is only about 5K available as a large block.
MS recommends loading (hi) largest, most important, stuff first.
Smaller stuff can more readily fit in smaller blocks. Less important
stuff can be left out.
salaam,
dowcom
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http://community.webtv.net/dowcom/DOWCOMSAMSTRADGUIDE
MSWindows is television,… Linux is radar.
Tim Judd
>
> 'Lo Tim:
>
> Group: comp.os.msdos.misc Date: Wed, Jun 30, 2004, 4:33pm (CDT-1) From:
> tju...@hotmail.com (Tim Judd)
>
> script:
>
>>One other website made mention that
>>the order that they're loaded makes a
>>BIG difference; I hadn't thought about
>>it before.. but I can see why now.
>
> Loadhi cannot break drivers, progs, etc., into pieces. With your
> current CONFIG.SYS there is only about 5K available as a large block.
> MS recommends loading (hi) largest, most important, stuff first.
> Smaller stuff can more readily fit in smaller blocks. Less important
> stuff can be left out.
>
> salaam,
> dowcom
>
In the case of MSClient (which is what is occupying most of the space), you
alwo cannot load some peices high, some low.
And.. the program being loaded can split itself into high/low both -- but
the user cannot specify it.
So, you get <STUCK> with some devices; some large ones such as TCPTSR (~75K)
and REDIR (split, 85K low, 16K high). Those two, are too big for upper
memory; so they have to sit together in conventional.
My problems wasn't directly correlated to EMM386, instead, they were issues
regarding where the OS just blindly loads them.
The rest of this week, I'll check for an alternative to <MS>-DOS and see if
another DOS can muster it any better. FreeDOS, DR-DOS, etc...
I appreciate your time replying, thanks.
bud
'Lo Tim:
Group: comp.os.msdos.misc Date: Thu, Jul 1, 2004, 11:25am (CDT-1) From:
tju...@hotmail.com (Tim Judd)
script:
>And.. the program being loaded can split
>itself into high/low both -- but
>the user cannot specify it.
And, considering that it is an M$ program, the user probably cannot
specify to load it into EMS, which is really the best place for it.
salaam,
dowcom
To e-mail me, add the character zero to "dowcom". i.e.:
dowcom(zero)(at)webtv(dot)net.
--
Martin Str|mberg
> Anyone else know of a CD-ROM/Extension that takes less memory than
> OAKCDROM/MSCDEX ?
How about FreeDOS' MSCDEX replacement? (I don't remember its name and
I haven't used it so I don't know how small and good it is.)
Right,
MartinS
Florian Xaver
> How about FreeDOS' MSCDEX replacement? (I don't remember its name and
> I haven't used it so I don't know how small and good it is.)
FDCDEX...you find a link at www.freedos.org ->software.
Bye, Flo