Nice to see

[CRNG]

It's nice to see some new activity on this NG. When JPS moved to
their captive-forum format, I tried following for a few months, but
found it too cumbersome so gave up on the forums and following
revisions of TC/TCC etc. My sig-line says it all.
--
Web based forums are like subscribing to 10 different newspapers
and having to visit 10 different news stands to pickup each one.
Email list-server groups and USENET are like having all of those
newspapers delivered to your door every morning.

[Stan Brown]

On Sun, 14 Jun 2015 06:45:05 -0500, CRNG wrote:
> Web based forums are like subscribing to 10 different newspapers
> and having to visit 10 different news stands to pickup each one.
> Email list-server groups and USENET are like having all of those
> newspapers delivered to your door every morning.

+1

I too gave up on their captive forums. I think the motivation was
that they can control criticism in their captive forum but not in
Usenet.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Shikata ga nai...

[CRNG]

On Sun, 14 Jun 2015 08:51:49 -0400, Stan Brown
<the_sta...@fastmail.fm> wrote in
<MPG.2fe742f11...@news.individual.net>

>On Sun, 14 Jun 2015 06:45:05 -0500, CRNG wrote:
>> Web based forums are like subscribing to 10 different newspapers
>> and having to visit 10 different news stands to pickup each one.
>> Email list-server groups and USENET are like having all of those
>> newspapers delivered to your door every morning.
>
>+1
>
>I too gave up on their captive forums. I think the motivation was
>that they can control criticism in their captive forum but not in
>Usenet.

That might indeed be their motivation. In my case, instead of
controlling criticism, they lost a customer; although I'm sure they
could not care less. So as long as my TCC v9.02 does everything I
want, I'll just stick with it.
--

[Klaus Meinhard]

Hallo,

while I share the feelings for Usenet groups in general, I can
understand the decision of Rex Conn to switch to a managed forum:

1: Usenet was slowly dying anyway

2: JP Soft was never acting against reasoned criticism, but strongly
against shitstorms and personal attacks against their personnel. That is
not the support environment a paying customer expects or tolerates.

I don't know if these messages are still available somewhere on Google
Groups or somesuch, but I could dig them out of my archives.

>> I too gave up on their captive forums. I think the motivation was
>> that they can control criticism in their captive forum but not in
>> Usenet.

> That might indeed be their motivation. In my case, instead of
> controlling criticism, they lost a customer; although I'm sure they
> could not care less. So as long as my TCC v9.02 does everything I
> want, I'll just stick with it.



--

Herzliche Grüße,

* Klaus Meinhard *

[CRNG]

On Mon, 15 Jun 2015 09:24:07 +0200, Klaus Meinhard <k_mei...@gmx.de>
wrote in <cu7csu...@mid.individual.net>

>2: JP Soft was never acting against reasoned criticism, but strongly
>against shitstorms and personal attacks against their personnel. That is
>not the support environment a paying customer expects or tolerates.

They could have got the same result by converting the group to a Yahoo
mail-list server that provides email participation or direct group
participation.

[Stan Brown]

On Mon, 15 Jun 2015 09:24:07 +0200, Klaus Meinhard wrote:

> while I share the feelings for Usenet groups in general, I can
> understand the decision of Rex Conn to switch to a managed forum:
>
> 1: Usenet was slowly dying anyway

So they feel a need to kick it while it's down?

> 2: JP Soft was never acting against reasoned criticism, but strongly
> against shitstorms and personal attacks against their personnel. That is
> not the support environment a paying customer expects or tolerates.

That's a straw man. No one objects that they decided to open a forum;
the objection is to their abrupt and, yes, arrogant decision to quit
Usenet, which their loyal customers had used for years.

It's not clear to me why you're on Usenet, since you clearly think
they did the right thing, but I'll let you have the last word if you
want it.

[Klaus Meinhard]

Hallo Stan Brown,

> It's not clear to me why you're on Usenet, since you clearly think
> they did the right thing, but I'll let you have the last word if you
> want it.

I understand that there were people who forced such a decision, even if
I regret the necessity.

I still monitor this group to help the occasional poster seeking help
with 4DOS. Most of them aren't even aware that it was produced by JP
Soft and that the company is alive and kicking.

I still read the forum posts at JP Software in Thunderbird, my mail
reader. In fact, there are 2 ways, as a blog feed and via email
notification. So it is not really such a hardship.

[DMcCunney]

On 6/15/2015 4:08 AM, CRNG wrote:
> On Mon, 15 Jun 2015 09:24:07 +0200, Klaus Meinhard <k_mei...@gmx.de>
> wrote in <cu7csu...@mid.individual.net>
>
>> 2: JP Soft was never acting against reasoned criticism, but strongly
>> against shitstorms and personal attacks against their personnel. That is
>> not the support environment a paying customer expects or tolerates.
>
> They could have got the same result by converting the group to a Yahoo
> mail-list server that provides email participation or direct group
> participation.

No, they could not, and Yahoo imposes its own level of annoyances. (I
created and manage a couple of lists as Google Groups instead. Some
annoyances, but less than Yahoo.)

I don't find the captive web forums all that hard to deal with, and
given the often infantile behavior on Usenet, I don't blame JPSoft for
pulling away from it.
______
Dennis

[David Solimano]

On Sun, 14 Jun 2015 06:45:05 -0500, CRNG <noe...@atthisdomain.gov>
wrote:

>It's nice to see some new activity on this NG. When JPS moved to
>their captive-forum format, I tried following for a few months, but
>found it too cumbersome so gave up on the forums and following
>revisions of TC/TCC etc. My sig-line says it all.

I love that signature. A perfect explanation of what's going on with
newsgroups.
--
David Solimano
da...@solimano.org

[CRNG]

On Tue, 07 Jul 2015 20:20:11 -0400, David Solimano
<da...@solimano.org> wrote in
<p4ropata9frmmml9l...@4ax.com>

I still can't figure out why anyone would prefer a proprietary labor
intensive forum over a news group. I just don't see the advantage.

[Stan Brown]

On Wed, 08 Jul 2015 05:19:08 -0500, CRNG wrote:
>
> I still can't figure out why anyone would prefer a proprietary labor
> intensive forum over a news group. I just don't see the advantage.

To us, there isn't one. To vendors, the advantage is that they can
control what is said (well, what is not deleted after being said) and
also that they can put ads on their captive forums.

[Axel Berger]

CRNG wrote:
> I still can't figure out why anyone would prefer a proprietary labor
> intensive forum over a news group. I just don't see the advantage.

We are too old and proably both engineers, valuing function over
external glitz. My daughter doesn't, I keep trying to find out where I
went wrong with her.

Axel

[CRNG]

On Thu, 09 Jul 2015 09:14:01 +0200, Axel Berger
<Axel_...@B.Maus.De> wrote in <559E1F39...@B.Maus.De>

>CRNG wrote:
>> I still can't figure out why anyone would prefer a proprietary labor
>> intensive forum over a news group. I just don't see the advantage.
>
>We are too old and proably both engineers, valuing function over
>external glitz.

Yep, I'm a retired engineer.

>My daughter doesn't, I keep trying to find out where I
>went wrong with her.

Yep, gave up on my daughter in that regard also.

>
>Axel

[DMcCunney]

On 7/8/2015 6:19 AM, CRNG wrote:

> I still can't figure out why anyone would prefer a proprietary labor
> intensive forum over a news group. I just don't see the advantage.

It depends upon the forum and the newsgroup.

If you are the author of software you provide online support for, how
many different places do you monitor to make announcements, note
problems, and answer questions? Especially since time spent doing that
is time *not* spent writing and debugging code, and getting new software
out the door.

JP Software seems to be a one man shop these days, and I can't blame Rex
for setting up a server and vBulletin for web forums to give him one
thing to look at, and the web forums can be used by anyone with a decent
browser. I don't find them all that hard to navigate and use.
______
Dennis

[Klaus Meinhard]

Hallo DMcCunney,

Thanks. Nice to hear a voice of reason :-)

Feelings of nostalgia aren't very helpful if you have a company and try
to sell a product. You want an environment for your support efforts that
doesn't put off clients with threads full of personal feuds, slander and
invectives.

AFAIK 4dos support started in BBS message boards, where the operator
generally had a keen eye on manners of his clients. This was closely
followed by a managed 4DOS support board on Compuserve, where the
legendary Mike Bessy was responsible for support of 4DOS.

So far, so good. A certain amount of control was possible (and mostly
unnecessary, because people tended to behave. They weren't anonymous in
those days).

Then came usenet, and Eternal September, and a massive amount of new
users without respect for netiquette or even basic politeness flooded
the net. Mike Bessy's personality was such that he sometimes told stupid
people that they did something stupid, which could then erupt into a
long flame war.

Does anybody know of any company still offering official support on
Usenet? I think the decision to move support to a managed forum was
regrettable from my personal viewpoint, but inevitable from a business
point of view.

[DMcCunney]

On 7/10/2015 3:52 AM, Klaus Meinhard wrote:
>>> On 7/8/2015 6:19 AM, CRNG wrote:

>> On 7/9/2015 11:12PM DMcCunney wrote:
>>
>>> I still can't figure out why anyone would prefer a proprietary
>>> labor intensive forum over a news group. I just don't see the
>>> advantage.
>>
>> It depends upon the forum and the newsgroup.
>>
>> If you are the author of software you provide online support for,
>> how many different places do you monitor to make announcements,
>> note problems, and answer questions? Especially since time spent
>> doing that is time *not* spent writing and debugging code, and
>> getting new software out the door.
>>
>> JP Software seems to be a one man shop these days, and I can't blame
>> Rex for setting up a server and vBulletin for web forums to give him
>> one thing to look at, and the web forums can be used by anyone with
>> a decent browser. I don't find them all that hard to navigate and
>> use.
>

> Thanks. Nice to hear a voice of reason :-)

You're welcome.

> Feelings of nostalgia aren't very helpful if you have a company and try
> to sell a product. You want an environment for your support efforts that
> doesn't put off clients with threads full of personal feuds, slander and
> invectives.

Which underlay my comment about the forum and the newsgroup. Many have
simply become snake pits and spam traps. Life is too short to wade
through that.

> AFAIK 4dos support started in BBS message boards, where the operator
> generally had a keen eye on manners of his clients. This was closely
> followed by a managed 4DOS support board on Compuserve, where the
> legendary Mike Bessy was responsible for support of 4DOS.

Yep. Back in the day, I co-hosted the 4DOS conference on RIME, which
was the second largest BBS network after Fidonet, and I had Tom Rawson
and Rex Conn in the conference. Rex talked about writing 4DOS for his
own use, and releasing it as shareware when it reached a sufficient
level of development to be usable by others. He said he thought it
might sell enough copies to buy a new computer and perhaps a few gadgets
for his boat. Instead it became his main occupation. I asked whether
he ever wished it *had* worked out as he expected, and he said "Yes,
when I wake up in the morning and there are 500 messages about 4DOS in
my Inbox!"

> So far, so good. A certain amount of control was possible (and mostly
> unnecessary, because people tended to behave. They weren't anonymous in
> those days).

RIME, at least, *required* real names, and sysops of RIME systems were
expected to confirm the identities of their posters. This was a bit of
a challenge because many different types of BBSes could be part of RIME,
and some of them didn't use real names - you chose an alias that you
used on the board. RIME worked via a client the BBS installed to
connect to the network, and in the case of software like MajorBBS that
used aliases, the client had to dig the user's real name out of the
board's registration database and put it on outgoing posts to RIME, and
do the reverse on replies coming back.

> Then came usenet, and Eternal September, and a massive amount of new
> users without respect for netiquette or even basic politeness flooded
> the net. Mike Bessy's personality was such that he sometimes told stupid
> people that they did something stupid, which could then erupt into a
> long flame war.

And the fundamental problem with Usenet was a distributed star
architecture with no central hub, so there was no way to establish any
real control. Usenet was designed and implemented in happier days and
the folks who did it never saw a need to impose that sort of controls.
Back before Eternal September, bad behavior got your mailbox stuffed
full of flames, and *really* bad behavior got complaints to the admins
of the site you posted form and your access went away. After AOL got
gated to Usenet, that was no longer effective.

> Does anybody know of any company still offering official support on
> Usenet? I think the decision to move support to a managed forum was
> regrettable from my personal viewpoint, but inevitable from a business
> point of view.

I'm not aware of any. And while I regret the fact that everything has
shifted to web forums, I don't blame companies that went that way. In
their place, I'd do the same thing.

It's a bit ironic when I see complaints that reduce to "I want to keep
doing things the same way I've always done them!", when the nature of
the computer world is change, and sitting still isn't a viable option.
The longer you try to stay put, the more trouble you store up for when
you are finally forced to change.
______
Dennis

[Klaus Meinhard]

Hallo Dennis,

> It's a bit ironic when I see complaints that reduce to "I want to
> keep doing things the same way I've always done them!", when the
> nature of the computer world is change, and sitting still isn't a
> viable option. The longer you try to stay put, the more trouble you
> store up for when you are finally forced to change. ______ Dennis

ACK. Nothing to add.

--

Mit freundlichen Grüßen,

* Klaus Meinhard *

[Kenny McCormack]

In article <d0en1q...@mid.individual.net>,

Klaus Meinhard <k_mei...@gmx.de> wrote:
>Hallo Dennis,
>
>> It's a bit ironic when I see complaints that reduce to "I want to
>> keep doing things the same way I've always done them!", when the
>> nature of the computer world is change, and sitting still isn't a
>> viable option. The longer you try to stay put, the more trouble you
>> store up for when you are finally forced to change. ______ Dennis
>
>ACK. Nothing to add.

Like the people who make their living selling fossil fuels, we all hope
that we die before that eventuality happens.

--
Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving that there is
no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof.

- John Kenneth Galbraith -

[DMcCunney]

On 7/8/2015 6:19 AM, CRNG wrote:

> I still can't figure out why anyone would prefer a proprietary labor
> intensive forum over a news group. I just don't see the advantage.

For vendors, better control. Newsgroups propagate through a distributed
star hierarchy, and there's no way to control precisely what gets
posted. (It's why many former newsgroups are unreadable spam traps.) I
don't really blame vendors for moving away from newsgroups.

For users, simplicity. All you need for web based forums is a browser.
You don't need to install, configure, and maintain an NNTP client, of
find a feed for newsgroups you want.
______
Dennis

[Klaus Meinhard]

Hallo DMcCunney,

good answer, though 20 months late :-)