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MSDEV-CRASH when trying to debug app

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Jorge Schramm

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May 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/13/98
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Hi everybody!

Keywords: MSDEV, Visual C++ 5.0, Windows NT 4.0 (service pack 3),
HeapAgent 3.11, SmartHeap 3.31, Hardlock

I'm in big trouble: My application has a bug and I want to debug it.
Each time I try to debug my application it crahes (F5, F10, F11 or even
CTRL-F5 and then "Attach to process...").

Here is everything I've already tried:
1. Clean all
2. Rebuild all
3. Unstall + re-install MSDEV :-(
4. Re-install Windows NT 4.0 + service pack 3 :-((
5. Install only the libraries I really need (HeapAgent, Hardlock)
6. Delete all Debug directories with explorer.

But the result is always the same.

Is there anyone who has had the same problem ? I must find the bug very
quickly!!

Well, here are the messages I get translated from german (I'll try my
best!). Maybe there is someone who can interpret them better then I do
--
maybe even someone from MS ;)

MSDEV.EXE - Error in application
The command in "0x50c14e34" points to the memory in "0x0000049c". The
"read"-command could not be processed on this memory".
Click OK to terminate application.
Click CANCEL to debug application
Ok / Cancel

If I press OK I get the same message (with different adresses).
If I press CANCEL a second intance of MSDEV is called and I debug
MSDEV.EXE:
I get the message: "Unhandled exception in MSDEV.EXE
(DEVDGB.PKG):0xC0000005: Access Violation."

See stack window: why do the MFC-functions have debug information
(otherwise they wouldn't appear here - or am I wrong ?).
CALL STACK
WINDOW------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DEVDBG! 50c14e34()
DEVDBG! 50c14cc5()
MFC42! 5f40230b()
DEVDBG! 50c20b42()
AfxCallWndProc(CWnd * 0x0157a108 {CWnd hWnd=0x00f60118}, HWND__ *
0x00f60118, unsigned int 5, unsigned int 0, long 7209242) line
206
AfxWndProcBase(HWND__ * 0x00f60118, unsigned int 5, unsigned int 0, long
7209242) line 204 + 9 bytes
AfxWndProcBase(HWND__ * 0x00f60118, unsigned int 5, unsigned int 0, long
7209242) line 201 + 7 bytes
USER32! 77e71ab7()
USER32! 77e71a77()
NTDLL! 77f8624f()
USER32! 77e7288d()
USER32! 77e72918()
CWnd::OnWndMsg(CWnd * const 0x00000000 {CWnd hWnd=???}, unsigned int 71,
unsigned int 0, long 1240328, long * 0x0157a108) line
1958 + 184 bytes
CWnd::WindowProc(CWnd * const 0x00000000 {CWnd hWnd=???}, unsigned int
71, unsigned int 0, long 1240328) line 1555 + 2 bytes
DEVDBG! 50c20b42()
AfxCallWndProc(CWnd * 0x0157a108 {CWnd hWnd=0x00f60118}, HWND__ *
0x00f60118, unsigned int 71, unsigned int 0, long 1240328)
line 206
AfxWndProcBase(HWND__ * 0x00f60118, unsigned int 71, unsigned int 0,
long 1240328) line 204 + 9 bytes
AfxWndProcBase(HWND__ * 0x00f60118, unsigned int 71, unsigned int 0,
long 1240328) line 201 + 7 bytes
USER32! 77e71ab7()
USER32! 77e72fbe()
NTDLL! 77f8624f()
DEVSHL! 50039f6e()
DEVSHL! 50039e24()
MFC42! 5f40230b()
DEVSHL! 5005185a()
AfxCallWndProc(CWnd * 0x02021f20 {CWnd hWnd=0x002900d8}, HWND__ *
0x002900d8, unsigned int 5, unsigned int 0, long 7602482)
line 206
AfxWndProcBase(HWND__ * 0x002900d8, unsigned int 5, unsigned int 0, long
7602482) line 204 + 9 bytes
AfxWndProcBase(HWND__ * 0x002900d8, unsigned int 5, unsigned int 0, long
7602482) line 201 + 7 bytes
USER32! 77e71ab7()
USER32! 77e71a77()
NTDLL! 77f8624f()
USER32! 77e7288d()
USER32! 77e72918()
CWnd::OnWndMsg(CWnd * const 0x00000000 {CWnd hWnd=???}, unsigned int 71,
unsigned int 0, long 1241392, long * 0x02021f20) line
1958 + 184 bytes
CWnd::WindowProc(CWnd * const 0x00000000 {CWnd hWnd=???}, unsigned int
71, unsigned int 0, long 1241392) line 1555 + 2 bytes
DEVSHL! 5005185a()
AfxCallWndProc(CWnd * 0x02021f20 {CWnd hWnd=0x002900d8}, HWND__ *
0x002900d8, unsigned int 71, unsigned int 0, long 1241392)
line 206
AfxWndProcBase(HWND__ * 0x002900d8, unsigned int 71, unsigned int 0,
long 1241392) line 204 + 9 bytes
AfxWndProcBase(HWND__ * 0x002900d8, unsigned int 71, unsigned int 0,
long 1241392) line 201 + 7 bytes
USER32! 77e71ab7()
USER32! 77e72fbe()
NTDLL! 77f8624f()
DEVSHL! 50008439()
DEVSHL! 50039d94()
DEVSHL! 50009002()
DEVSHL! 500089a7()
DEVSHL! 5003be75()
DEVDBG! 50c0bdcf()
DEVDBG! 50c0bc93()
DEVDBG! 50c1cec6()
DEVDBG! 50c1cbf8()
CArchive::FillBuffer(CArchive * const 0x00000000, unsigned int 6708016)
line 723 + 7 bytes
CArchive::FillBuffer(CArchive * const 0x00000000, unsigned int 34710)
line 703
DEVDBG! 50c203a0()
DEVSHL! 50005d24()
CDocument::OnCmdMsg(CDocument * const 0x00000000 {CDocument}, unsigned
int 34710, int 0, void * 0x00000000,
AFX_CMDHANDLERINFO * 0x00000000) line 934 + 3 bytes
DEVSHL! 50005cb1()
CCmdTarget::CallMemberFunc(CCmdTarget * const 0x00000000 {CCmdTarget},
const AFX_DISPMAP_ENTRY * 0x00000000, unsigned
short 0, tagVARIANT * 0x0000e146, tagDISPPARAMS * 0x00000111, unsigned
int * 0x00008796) line 1024 + 8 bytes
CCmdTarget::PushStackArgs(CCmdTarget * const 0x00000000 {CCmdTarget},
unsigned char * 0x00000000, unsigned char * 0x00000000,
void * 0x00382ca8, unsigned short 11432, tagDISPPARAMS * 0x001421f8,
unsigned int * 0x00448b90, tagVARIANT * 0x00402dfc) line 704
+ 4 bytes
CWnd::OnWndMsg(CWnd * const 0x00000000 {CWnd hWnd=???}, unsigned int
273, unsigned int 34710, long 0, long * 0x0012fdc0) line 1605
+ 3 bytes
MFC42! 5f40230b()
DEVSHL! 50002d9b()
AfxWndProcBase(HWND__ * 0x00d700fe, unsigned int 273, unsigned int
34710, long 0) line 204 + 9 bytes
AfxWndProcBase(HWND__ * 0x00d700fe, unsigned int 273, unsigned int
34710, long 0) line 201 + 7 bytes
USER32! 77e71250()

REGISTER WINDOW
------------------------------------------------------------
EAX = 00000127
EBX = 0157A108
ECX = 00000000
EDX = F70BF108
ESI = 77E7FC98
EDI = 00000000
EIP = 50C14E34
ESP = 0012E93C
EBP = 0012E96C
EFL = 00000217
CS = 001B
DS = 0023
ES = 0023
SS = 0023
FS = 003B
GS = 0000
OV=0
UP=0
EI=1
PL=0
ZR=0
AC=1
PE=1
CY=1

0000049C
????????

ST0 = -0.00000003476847217e+2405
ST1 = +0.00000000000000000e+0000
ST2 = -3.11253028180124607e+2627
ST3 = +0.00000000000000000e+0000
ST4 = +0.00000000000000000e+0000
ST5 = +0.00000000000000000e+0000
ST6 = -3.38050819212427418e+3958
ST7 = +0.00000000000000000e+0000
CTRL = 027F
STAT = 0000
TAGS = FFFF
EIP = FCD03DA8
CS = 0001
DS = F1F4
EDO = A000036C

MEMORY WINDOW----------------------------------------------------------
Address: 0x00000000

If I rerun MSDEV I have the messages in my output - window:
OUTPUT WINDOW--------------------------------------------
Loaded 'D:\Compiler\DevStudio\SharedIDE\bin\MSDEV.EXE', no matching
symbolic information found.
Loaded 'C:\WINNT\System32\ntdll.dll', no matching symbolic information
found.
Loaded symbols for 'C:\WINNT\system32\mfc42.dll'
Loaded 'C:\WINNT\system32\Msvcrt.dll', no matching symbolic information
found.
Loaded 'C:\WINNT\system32\KERNEL32.DLL', no matching symbolic
information found.
Loaded 'C:\WINNT\system32\GDI32.DLL', no matching symbolic information
found.
Loaded 'C:\WINNT\system32\USER32.DLL', no matching symbolic information
found.
Loaded 'C:\WINNT\system32\ADVAPI32.DLL', no matching symbolic
information found.
Loaded 'C:\WINNT\system32\RPCRT4.DLL', no matching symbolic information
found.
Loaded 'D:\Compiler\DevStudio\SharedIDE\bin\DEVSHL.DLL', no matching
symbolic information found.
Loaded 'C:\WINNT\system32\OLE32.DLL', no matching symbolic information
found.
Loaded 'C:\WINNT\system32\OleAut32.dll', no matching symbolic
information found.
Loaded 'C:\WINNT\system32\SHELL32.DLL', no matching symbolic information
found.
LDR: Automatic DLL Relocation in MSDEV.EXE
LDR: Dll COMCTL32.dll base bfc00000 relocated due to collision with
Dynamically Allocated Memory
Loaded 'C:\WINNT\system32\comctl32.DLL', no matching symbolic
information found.
Loaded 'C:\WINNT\system32\COMDLG32.DLL', no matching symbolic
information found.
Loaded 'C:\WINNT\system32\version.dll', no matching symbolic information
found.
Loaded 'C:\WINNT\system32\lz32.dll', no matching symbolic information
found.
Loaded 'C:\WINNT\system32\HALOADER.DLL', no matching symbolic
information found.
Loaded 'C:\WINNT\system32\mfc42loc.dll', no matching symbolic
information found.
Loaded 'D:\Compiler\DevStudio\SharedIDE\bin\DEVIV.PKG', no matching
symbolic information found.
Loaded 'C:\WINNT\system32\WININET.DLL', no matching symbolic information
found.
Loaded 'C:\WINNT\system32\RPCLTC1.DLL', no matching symbolic information
found.
Loaded 'D:\Compiler\DevStudio\SharedIDE\bin\IVTMON.DLL', no matching
symbolic information found.
Loaded 'D:\Compiler\DevStudio\SharedIDE\bin\DEVEDIT.PKG', no matching
symbolic information found.
Loaded 'D:\Compiler\DevStudio\SharedIDE\bin\DEVPRJ.PKG', no matching
symbolic information found.
Loaded 'D:\Compiler\DevStudio\SharedIDE\bin\ide\DEVBLD.PKG', no matching
symbolic information found.
Loaded 'D:\Compiler\DevStudio\SharedIDE\bin\ide\DEVAUT1.PKG', no
matching symbolic information found.
Loaded 'D:\Compiler\DevStudio\SharedIDE\bin\ide\DEVODL.PKG', no matching
symbolic information found.
Loaded 'D:\Compiler\DevStudio\SharedIDE\bin\ide\DEVRES.PKG', no matching
symbolic information found.
Loaded 'D:\Compiler\DevStudio\SharedIDE\bin\ide\DEVBIED.PKG', no
matching symbolic information found.
Loaded 'D:\Compiler\DevStudio\SharedIDE\bin\ide\DEVCLVW.PKG', no
matching symbolic information found.
Loaded 'D:\Compiler\DevStudio\SharedIDE\bin\ide\DEVCPP.PKG', no matching
symbolic information found.
Loaded 'D:\Compiler\DevStudio\SharedIDE\bin\MFCCLWZ.DLL', no matching
symbolic information found.
Loaded 'C:\WINNT\system32\ODBC32.DLL', no matching symbolic information
found.
Loaded 'C:\WINNT\system32\ODBCINT.DLL', no matching symbolic information
found.
First-chance exception in MSDEV.EXE (KERNEL32.DLL): 0xE06D7363:
Microsoft C++ Exception.
First-chance exception in MSDEV.EXE (KERNEL32.DLL): 0xE06D7363:
Microsoft C++ Exception.
First-chance exception in MSDEV.EXE (KERNEL32.DLL): 0xE06D7363:
Microsoft C++ Exception.
First-chance exception in MSDEV.EXE (KERNEL32.DLL): 0xE06D7363:
Microsoft C++ Exception.
First-chance exception in MSDEV.EXE (KERNEL32.DLL): 0xE06D7363:
Microsoft C++ Exception.
First-chance exception in MSDEV.EXE (KERNEL32.DLL): 0xE06D7363:
Microsoft C++ Exception.
First-chance exception in MSDEV.EXE (KERNEL32.DLL): 0xE06D7363:
Microsoft C++ Exception.
First-chance exception in MSDEV.EXE (KERNEL32.DLL): 0xE06D7363:
Microsoft C++ Exception.
First-chance exception in MSDEV.EXE (KERNEL32.DLL): 0xE06D7363:
Microsoft C++ Exception.
First-chance exception in MSDEV.EXE (KERNEL32.DLL): 0xE06D7363:
Microsoft C++ Exception.
First-chance exception in MSDEV.EXE (KERNEL32.DLL): 0xE06D7363:
Microsoft C++ Exception.
First-chance exception in MSDEV.EXE (KERNEL32.DLL): 0xE06D7363:
Microsoft C++ Exception.
First-chance exception in MSDEV.EXE (KERNEL32.DLL): 0xE06D7363:
Microsoft C++ Exception.
First-chance exception in MSDEV.EXE (KERNEL32.DLL): 0xE06D7363:
Microsoft C++ Exception.
First-chance exception in MSDEV.EXE (KERNEL32.DLL): 0xE06D7363:
Microsoft C++ Exception.
First-chance exception in MSDEV.EXE (KERNEL32.DLL): 0xE06D7363:
Microsoft C++ Exception.
First-chance exception in MSDEV.EXE (KERNEL32.DLL): 0xE06D7363:
Microsoft C++ Exception.
First-chance exception in MSDEV.EXE (KERNEL32.DLL): 0xE06D7363:
Microsoft C++ Exception.
First-chance exception in MSDEV.EXE (KERNEL32.DLL): 0xE06D7363:
Microsoft C++ Exception.
First-chance exception in MSDEV.EXE (KERNEL32.DLL): 0xE06D7363:
Microsoft C++ Exception.
First-chance exception in MSDEV.EXE (KERNEL32.DLL): 0xE06D7363:
Microsoft C++ Exception.
First-chance exception in MSDEV.EXE (KERNEL32.DLL): 0xE06D7363:
Microsoft C++ Exception.
First-chance exception in MSDEV.EXE (KERNEL32.DLL): 0xE06D7363:
Microsoft C++ Exception.
First-chance exception in MSDEV.EXE (KERNEL32.DLL): 0xE06D7363:
Microsoft C++ Exception.
First-chance exception in MSDEV.EXE (KERNEL32.DLL): 0xE06D7363:
Microsoft C++ Exception.
First-chance exception in MSDEV.EXE (KERNEL32.DLL): 0xE06D7363:
Microsoft C++ Exception.
First-chance exception in MSDEV.EXE (KERNEL32.DLL): 0xE06D7363:
Microsoft C++ Exception.
First-chance exception in MSDEV.EXE (KERNEL32.DLL): 0xE06D7363:
Microsoft C++ Exception.
First-chance exception in MSDEV.EXE (KERNEL32.DLL): 0xE06D7363:
Microsoft C++ Exception.
First-chance exception in MSDEV.EXE (KERNEL32.DLL): 0xE06D7363:
Microsoft C++ Exception.
First-chance exception in MSDEV.EXE (KERNEL32.DLL): 0xE06D7363:
Microsoft C++ Exception.
First-chance exception in MSDEV.EXE (KERNEL32.DLL): 0xE06D7363:
Microsoft C++ Exception.
First-chance exception in MSDEV.EXE (KERNEL32.DLL): 0xE06D7363:
Microsoft C++ Exception.
First-chance exception in MSDEV.EXE (KERNEL32.DLL): 0xE06D7363:
Microsoft C++ Exception.
First-chance exception in MSDEV.EXE (KERNEL32.DLL): 0xE06D7363:
Microsoft C++ Exception.
First-chance exception in MSDEV.EXE (KERNEL32.DLL): 0xE06D7363:
Microsoft C++ Exception.
Loaded 'D:\Compiler\DevStudio\SharedIDE\bin\ide\DEVDBG.PKG', no matching
symbolic information found.
Loaded 'D:\Compiler\DevStudio\SharedIDE\bin\ide\DEVGAL.PKG', no matching
symbolic information found.
Loaded 'D:\Compiler\DevStudio\SharedIDE\bin\ide\DEVHTMX.PKG', no
matching symbolic information found.
Loaded 'D:\Compiler\DevStudio\SharedIDE\bin\ide\DEVNCB.PKG', no matching
symbolic information found.
Loaded 'D:\Compiler\DevStudio\SharedIDE\bin\ide\DEVTOOL.PKG', no
matching symbolic information found.
Loaded 'C:\WINNT\system32\winmm.dll', no matching symbolic information
found.
Loaded 'C:\WINNT\system32\MMDRV.DLL', no matching symbolic information
found.
Loaded 'D:\Compiler\DevStudio\SharedIDE\bin\SHCV.DLL', no matching
symbolic information found.
Loaded 'D:\Compiler\DevStudio\SharedIDE\bin\MSPDB50.DLL', no matching
symbolic information found.
Loaded 'D:\Compiler\DevStudio\SharedIDE\bin\EECXX.DLL', no matching
symbolic information found.
Loaded 'D:\Compiler\DevStudio\SharedIDE\bin\TLLOC.DLL', no matching
symbolic information found.
Loaded 'D:\Compiler\DevStudio\SharedIDE\bin\EM.DLL', no matching
symbolic information found.
Loaded 'C:\WINNT\system32\IMAGEHLP.DLL', no matching symbolic
information found.
Loaded 'D:\Compiler\DevStudio\SharedIDE\bin\MSDIS100.DLL', no matching
symbolic information found.
Loaded 'C:\WINNT\system32\MSVCP50.DLL', no matching symbolic information
found.
First-chance exception in MSDEV.EXE (KERNEL32.DLL): 0xE06D7363:
Microsoft C++ Exception.
First-chance exception in MSDEV.EXE (KERNEL32.DLL): 0xE06D7363:
Microsoft C++ Exception.
First-chance exception in MSDEV.EXE (KERNEL32.DLL): 0xE06D7363:
Microsoft C++ Exception.
First-chance exception in MSDEV.EXE (KERNEL32.DLL): 0xE06D7363:
Microsoft C++ Exception.
First-chance exception in MSDEV.EXE (KERNEL32.DLL): 0xE06D7363:
Microsoft C++ Exception.
First-chance exception in MSDEV.EXE (KERNEL32.DLL): 0xE06D7363:
Microsoft C++ Exception.
First-chance exception in MSDEV.EXE (KERNEL32.DLL): 0xE06D7363:
Microsoft C++ Exception.
First-chance exception in MSDEV.EXE (KERNEL32.DLL): 0xE06D7363:
Microsoft C++ Exception.
First-chance exception in MSDEV.EXE (KERNEL32.DLL): 0xE06D7363:
Microsoft C++ Exception.
First-chance exception in MSDEV.EXE (KERNEL32.DLL): 0xE06D7363:
Microsoft C++ Exception.
First-chance exception in MSDEV.EXE (KERNEL32.DLL): 0xE06D7363:
Microsoft C++ Exception.
First-chance exception in MSDEV.EXE (KERNEL32.DLL): 0xE06D7363:
Microsoft C++ Exception.
First-chance exception in MSDEV.EXE (KERNEL32.DLL): 0xE06D7363:
Microsoft C++ Exception.
First-chance exception in MSDEV.EXE (KERNEL32.DLL): 0xE06D7363:
Microsoft C++ Exception.
First-chance exception in MSDEV.EXE (KERNEL32.DLL): 0xE06D7363:
Microsoft C++ Exception.
First-chance exception in MSDEV.EXE (KERNEL32.DLL): 0xE06D7363:
Microsoft C++ Exception.
First-chance exception in MSDEV.EXE (KERNEL32.DLL): 0xE06D7363:
Microsoft C++ Exception.
Loaded 'D:\Compiler\DevStudio\SharedIDE\bin\SHCV.DLL', no matching
symbolic information found.
Loaded 'D:\Compiler\DevStudio\SharedIDE\bin\EECXX.DLL', no matching
symbolic information found.
Loaded 'D:\Compiler\DevStudio\SharedIDE\bin\TLLOC.DLL', no matching
symbolic information found.
Loaded 'D:\Compiler\DevStudio\SharedIDE\bin\EM.DLL', no matching
symbolic information found.
Loaded 'C:\WINNT\system32\IMAGEHLP.DLL', no matching symbolic
information found.
Loaded 'D:\Compiler\DevStudio\SharedIDE\bin\MSDIS100.DLL', no matching
symbolic information found.
Loaded 'C:\WINNT\system32\MSVCP50.DLL', no matching symbolic information
found.
Loaded 'D:\Compiler\DevStudio\SharedIDE\bin\DM.DLL', no matching
symbolic information found.
Loaded 'C:\WINNT\system32\PSAPI.DLL', no matching symbolic information
found.
First-chance exception in MSDEV.EXE (DEVDBG.PKG): 0xC0000005: Access
Violation.


Thanx for ANY help!
Jorge


--
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Ruppertstr. 1 | Fax. 76 37 39
D - 80337 Muenchen | e-mail: j...@testplus.com
Deutschland/Germany | Web: http://www.testplus.com


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Jorge Schramm

unread,
May 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/13/98
to

Jeff Andrews

unread,
May 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/13/98
to

Jorge,

I don't know what's causing your situation, but I noticed that you did
not mention any Developer Studio service packs (as opposed to NT
service packs). I believe they are currently up to service pack 3 for
DevStudio, so you might want to get that from
http://www.microsoft.com/vstudio/sp/ and give it a shot.

BTW, I found it humorous that my spell-checker thought I had confused
DevStudio and Devastation. They're not the same, are they?? 8^)

Regards,
= Jeff Andrews =
andr...@perkin-elmer.com.no-spam
(you know which part to remove to email me...)

------------------------------------------------

Randy Payne

unread,
May 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/14/98
to j...@testplus.com
Hi:
Yes, I've had the same problem, although it's been awhile now. It was
due to some other app (sorry, I don't know which!!) installing some
DLL's into \WINNT\SYSTEM32 over the ones NT's install put there. I
re-installed NT (this probably isn't what you want to hear) and then
everything worked fine.

Randy

jason hummel

unread,
May 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/15/98
to


Jorge Schramm wrote:

> Hi everybody!
>
> Keywords: MSDEV, Visual C++ 5.0, Windows NT 4.0 (service pack 3),
> HeapAgent 3.11, SmartHeap 3.31, Hardlock
>
> I'm in big trouble: My application has a bug and I want to debug it.
> Each time I try to debug my application it crahes (F5, F10, F11 or even
> CTRL-F5 and then "Attach to process...").
>
> Here is everything I've already tried:
> 1. Clean all
> 2. Rebuild all
> 3. Unstall + re-install MSDEV :-(
> 4. Re-install Windows NT 4.0 + service pack 3 :-((
> 5. Install only the libraries I really need (HeapAgent, Hardlock)
> 6. Delete all Debug directories with explorer.
>
> But the result is always the same.
>
> Is there anyone who has had the same problem ? I must find the bug very
> quickly!!
>
> Well, here are the messages I get translated from german (I'll try my
> best!). Maybe there is someone who can interpret them better then I do
> -- maybe even someone from MS ;)

> [snip]

I've had VC++ crash in the middle of debugging while the nortons disk
protection vxd was running, part of the nortons utilites 3.0. You've got me....
I just do a three finger salute and kill it before i start up VC++.

Regards,
jason hummel

Ian Tory

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May 22, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/22/98
to

I'd try uninstalling HeapAgent.
Useful as it is, it caused me similar problems

Ian Tory
<ian...@mythosgames.com>

Jorge Schramm wrote in message <3559D1C5...@testplus.comXXX>...

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