Piracy Is NOT always a Deadly Sin - here's why.
Mystery Girl
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I often wonder why police and software companies make such a big deal =
over software piracy, making EVERYONE seem like huge criminals. They =
never seem to take note of the difference between the two types of =
piraters:
Type 1 - the people who sell pirate cds and make profits doing so - they =
make a business out of taking away someone else's business.
Type 2 - the poor/cheap/student people who wouldn't buy that overly =
expensive software in the first place.
Quite frankly, the people from Type 2 are too broke/cheap to buy the =
original software anyways - so if they copy software, the original =
company is *NOT* losing out from this act. They neither gain nor lose =
anything from this happening. If this person happens to BUY the software =
from a pirate dealer though, that's a bit of a problem. But under =
normal circumstances when people swap their disks (as ALL students do) =
the companies really cannot complain. We all know these people cannot =
afford the software in the first place EVEN AT so-called "student =
pricing". I don't know if piracy cops target these people the most- but =
if they do, they are barking up the wrong tree. =20
It's the people who profit from piracy that are the problem...at least =
that's my opinion. Piracy is only an issue if it affects anything - =
such as a business running pirated Win95 on 50 computers. :) Joe Shmo =
who borrows his buddie's cdrom cuz he's fifteen and has no money is not =
the problem. :)
Any comments? It seems to be logical to me...I just felt like posting =
something to usenet tonight. :)
Please reply via email...I'd like to hear both sides of this issue from =
all sorts of different people.
MG---------------------------------------------------------------Words =
you say never seem to live up toThe ones inside your head.The lives we =
make never seem to ever get usAnywhere but =
dead.---------------------------------------------------------------http:=
//www.sentex.net/~mystery=20
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<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I often wonder why police and software =
companies make=20
such a big deal over software piracy, making EVERYONE seem like huge =
criminals.=20
They never seem to take note of the difference between the two types of=20
piraters:</FONT>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><STRONG>Type 1 </STRONG>- the people who =
sell pirate=20
cds and make profits doing so - they make a business out of taking away =
someone=20
else's business.</FONT>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><STRONG>Type 2 </STRONG>- the =
poor/cheap/student=20
people who wouldn't buy that overly expensive software in the first=20
place.</FONT>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Quite frankly, the people from Type 2 are =
<STRONG>too=20
broke/cheap to buy the original software anyways </STRONG>- so if they =
copy=20
software, the original company is <STRONG>*NOT* </STRONG>losing out from =
this=20
act. They neither gain nor lose anything from this happening. If this =
person=20
happens to BUY the software from a pirate dealer though, that's a bit =
of a=20
problem. But under normal circumstances when people swap their disks =
(as ALL=20
students do) the companies really cannot complain. We all know these =
people=20
cannot afford the software in the first place EVEN AT so-called =
"student=20
pricing". I don't know if piracy cops target these people the =
most- but if=20
they do, they are barking up the wrong tree. </FONT>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>It's the people who profit from piracy =
that are the=20
problem...at least that's my opinion. Piracy is only an issue if it =
affects=20
anything - such as a business running pirated Win95 on 50 computers. :) =
Joe=20
Shmo who borrows his buddie's cdrom cuz he's fifteen and has no money is =
not the=20
problem. :)</FONT>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Any comments? It seems to be logical to =
me...I just=20
felt like posting something to usenet tonight. :)</FONT>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Please reply via email...I'd like to hear =
both sides=20
of this issue from all sorts of different people.</FONT>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>MG<BR><HTML><BODY><FONT=20
size=3D2>---------------------------------------------------------------<=
BR>Words=20
you say never seem to live up to<BR>The ones inside your head.<BR>The =
lives we=20
make never seem to ever get us<BR>Anywhere but=20
dead.<BR>---------------------------------------------------------------<=
BR><A=20
href=3Dhttp://www.sentex.net/~mystery>http://www.sentex.net/~mystery</A> =
</FONT><HTML><BODY><FONT size=3D2></FONT></FONT>
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Mystery Girl
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Mystery Girl
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Mystery Girl
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Mystery Girl
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Mystery Girl
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Mystery Girl
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Mystery Girl
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Dale
>I often wonder why police and software companies make such a big deal =
>over software piracy, making EVERYONE seem like huge criminals.
Intellectual property. If you create something physical for someone
you expect to be paid in some way for your labor. If it's skull sweat
that created something you still expect to be paid.
If someone takes/uses something you created then they are stealing
from you whether it be a nice hardcover book you published or a
program you wrote.
However with software it becomes difficult, if not impossible, to
enforce this. Unlike a table or a car, the software user frequently
has the ability to knock off not just one copy, but as many as they
please. Additionally it can be done cheaply and with a minimum of
time/effort unlike the time/effort it would take to copy a book with a
photocopier for example.
I am guilty, like many, of piracy in one form or another. However I
believe that the only way to test software is to USE it! Not some
limited or watered down demo, but the real thing. If I like something
and I use it, then I go back out and buy it (which was EXTREMELY
painful with Photoshop and Pagemaker I might add!!!)
I do agree with one thing though. If the initial cost of software is
programming/marketing/packaging, but duplication costs are minimal,
then why bulk produced programs in excess of a million (legally sold)
copies still cost upwards of $500-$1,000 is beyond me!
Dale
Bob Katayama
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Mystery Girl wrote:
>
>
> I often wonder why police and software companies make such a big
> deal over software piracy, making EVERYONE seem like huge criminals.
> They never seem to take note of the difference between the two types
> of piraters:
>
> Type 1 - the people who sell pirate cds and make profits doing so -
> they make a business out of taking away someone else's business.
>
> Type 2 - the poor/cheap/student people who wouldn't buy that overly
> expensive software in the first place.
>
> Quite frankly, the people from Type 2 are too broke/cheap to buy the
> original software anyways - so if they copy software, the original
> company is *NOT* losing out from this act.
Actually you do not understand the concept of piracy.
Piracy is piracy once a copy is made without the written permission.
Does not matter if it is paid for or not.
For every person that uses an illegal copy, the manufacturer loses
revenue
from people buying third party help books and getting tech support.
Also product support costs a fixed amount no matter if 10 registered
users
are out there or 100 registered users.
Therefore, if a manufacturer decides to not provide support due to the
lack
of sales who loses. Not the one using a pirated copy.
The end user winds up paying extra for the support.
This is what is hapening now! To keep the purchase price down, the
support
is sold separately. :-( Piracy costs everybody
Also what about the original person that owns the copyright or serial
number?
That person can nolonger get support because his copy has been deemed
pirated! He paid for the program but nolonger qualifies for support!
Someone with a pirated copy tried to get tech support and was caught as
having a pirated copy. Therefore that serial number is now null and
void.
The more pirated copies that exist the more R and D money is spent to
copy protect future software. This costs $1000.00's of dollars and
raises the
purchase price of the software.
If you think software is expensive and the manufacturers are greedy then
think again. The more pirated versions exist the more the software
manufacturers have to charge for future versions.
> They neither gain nor lose anything from this happening. If this
> person happens to BUY the software from a pirate dealer though,
> that's a bit of a problem. But under normal circumstances when
> people swap their disks (as ALL students do) the companies really
> cannot complain.
How many students do you know that use pirated software that do not
require
ANY assistance at all in using the program? Unless they have pirated the
manual
too? :-(
> We all know these people cannot afford the software in the first
> place EVEN AT so-called "student pricing". I don't know if piracy
> cops target these people the most- but if they do, they are barking
> up the wrong tree.
How many of the people you know that use copies of software go drinking
every week, eat junk food, smoke cigarettes and see movies 2 - 3
times a month?
Probably most of the people you know.
Don't say they cannot afford the software. You need to get your
priorities
straight. If you have to save to go to college, the cost of software
required
must be added to the the annual costs.
If you cannot afford to pay for gas then why drive a car.
If you cannot afford to purchase software then don't use a computer.
>
> It's the people who profit from piracy that are the problem...at
> least that's my opinion. Piracy is only an issue if it affects
> anything
For the reasons stated earlier, piracy effects everybody.
> - such as a business running pirated Win95 on 50 computers. :) Joe
> Shmo who borrows his buddie's cdrom cuz he's fifteen and has no
> money is not the problem. :)
How do you know Joe Shmo is not just cheap! :-)
Also if he needed a text book for school, would you let him borrow
yours that cost $200.00 so that he could make a photocopy of it?
He spent $2000.00 to go to college just like you but he gets a book for
$20.00 and you pay $200.00!
If you're the one that would borrow a friends book and photocopy it then
you probably drink rye and cokes. Also, you would call all Australian
animals that hops on two legs and has a pouch a Kangaroo.
> Any comments? It seems to be logical to me...I just felt like
> posting something to usenet tonight. :)
You are living a world of double standards.
For instance, do you have to call a black person a spick or nigger to be
racist? What if you do not have any black friends or talk to blacks in
the
college? Someone could easily call you a racist because of this and they
would be justified.
> Please reply via email...I'd like to hear both sides of this issue
> from all sorts of different people.
>
> MG
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> Words you say never seem to live up to
> The ones inside your head.
> The lives we make never seem to ever get us
> Anywhere but dead.
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> http://www.sentex.net/~mystery
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Mystery Girl wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<BR>
<BR><FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT SIZE=-1>I often wonder why police and software
companies make such a big deal over software piracy, making EVERYONE seem
like huge criminals. They never seem to take note of the difference between
the two types of piraters:</FONT></FONT>
<BR>
<BR><FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT SIZE=-1><B>Type 1 </B>- the people who sell pirate
cds and make profits doing so - they make a business out of taking away
someone else's business.</FONT></FONT>
<BR>
<BR><FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT SIZE=-1><B>Type 2 </B>- the poor/cheap/student
people who wouldn't buy that overly expensive software in the first place.</FONT></FONT>
<BR>
<BR><FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT SIZE=-1>Quite frankly, the people from Type 2
are <B>too broke/cheap to buy the original software anyways </B>- so if
they copy software, the original company is <B>*NOT* </B>losing out from
this act.</FONT></FONT>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT SIZE=-1>Actually you do not understand the concept
of piracy.</FONT></FONT>
<BR><FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT SIZE=-1>Piracy is piracy once a copy is made without
the written permission.</FONT></FONT>
<BR><FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT SIZE=-1>Does not matter if it is paid for or not.</FONT></FONT>
<BR><FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT SIZE=-1>For every person that uses an illegal
copy, the manufacturer loses revenue</FONT></FONT>
<BR><FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT SIZE=-1>from people buying third party help books
and getting tech support.</FONT></FONT>
<BR><FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT SIZE=-1></FONT></FONT>
<BR><FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT SIZE=-1>Also product support costs a fixed amount
no matter if 10 registered users</FONT></FONT>
<BR><FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT SIZE=-1>are out there or 100 registered users.</FONT></FONT>
<BR><FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT SIZE=-1>Therefore, if a manufacturer decides to
not provide support due to the lack</FONT></FONT>
<BR><FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT SIZE=-1>of sales who loses. Not the one using
a pirated copy.</FONT></FONT>
<BR><FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT SIZE=-1>The end user winds up paying extra for
the support.</FONT></FONT>
<BR><FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT SIZE=-1>This is what is hapening now! To keep
the purchase price down, the support</FONT></FONT>
<BR><FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT SIZE=-1>is sold separately. :-( Piracy costs everybody</FONT></FONT>
<BR><FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT SIZE=-1>Also what about the original person that
owns the copyright or serial number?</FONT></FONT>
<BR><FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT SIZE=-1>That person can nolonger get support because
his copy has been deemed</FONT></FONT>
<BR><FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT SIZE=-1>pirated! He paid for the program but nolonger
qualifies for support!</FONT></FONT>
<BR><FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT SIZE=-1>Someone with a pirated copy tried to get
tech support and was caught as</FONT></FONT>
<BR><FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT SIZE=-1>having a pirated copy. Therefore that
serial number is now null and void.</FONT></FONT>
<BR><FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT SIZE=-1></FONT></FONT>
<BR><FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT SIZE=-1>The more pirated copies that exist the
more R and D money is spent to</FONT></FONT>
<BR><FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT SIZE=-1>copy protect future software. This costs
$1000.00's of dollars and raises the</FONT></FONT>
<BR><FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT SIZE=-1>purchase price of the software.</FONT></FONT>
<BR><FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT SIZE=-1>If you think software is expensive and
the manufacturers are greedy then</FONT></FONT>
<BR><FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT SIZE=-1>think again. The more pirated versions
exist the more the software</FONT></FONT>
<BR><FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT SIZE=-1>manufacturers have to charge for future
versions.</FONT></FONT>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE><FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT SIZE=-1>They neither gain
nor lose anything from this happening. If this person happens to BUY the
software from a pirate dealer though, that's a bit of a problem. But under
normal circumstances when people swap their disks (as ALL students do)
the companies really cannot complain.</FONT></FONT>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT SIZE=-1>How many students do you know that use
pirated software that do not require</FONT></FONT>
<BR><FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT SIZE=-1>ANY assistance at all in using the program?
Unless they have pirated the manual</FONT></FONT>
<BR><FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT SIZE=-1>too? :-(</FONT></FONT>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE><FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT SIZE=-1>We all know these
people cannot afford the software in the first place EVEN AT so-called
"student pricing". I don't know if piracy cops target these people the
most- but if they do, they are barking up the wrong tree.</FONT></FONT>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
How many of the people you know that use copies of software go drinking
<BR>every week, eat junk food, smoke cigarettes and see movies 2 - 3
<BR>times a month?
<BR>Probably most of the people you know.
<BR>Don't say they cannot afford the software. You need to get your priorities
<BR>straight. If you have to save to go to college, the cost of software required
<BR>must be added to the the annual costs.
<BR>If you cannot afford to pay for gas then why drive a car.
<BR>If you cannot afford to purchase software then don't use a computer.
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<BR><FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT SIZE=-1>It's the people who profit from piracy
that are the problem...at least that's my opinion. Piracy is only an issue
if it affects anything</FONT></FONT>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT SIZE=-1>For the reasons stated earlier, piracy
effects everybody.</FONT></FONT>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE><FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT SIZE=-1>- such as a business
running pirated Win95 on 50 computers. :) Joe Shmo who borrows his buddie's
cdrom cuz he's fifteen and has no money is not the problem. :)</FONT></FONT>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
How do you know Joe Shmo is not just cheap! :-)
<BR>Also if he needed a text book for school, would you let him borrow
<BR>yours that cost $200.00 so that he could make a photocopy of it?
<BR>He spent $2000.00 to go to college just like you but he gets a book for
<BR>$20.00 and you pay $200.00!
<BR>
<BR>If you're the one that would borrow a friends book and photocopy it then
<BR>you probably drink rye and cokes. Also, you would call all Australian
<BR>animals that hops on two legs and has a pouch a Kangaroo.
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE><FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT SIZE=-1>Any comments? It
seems to be logical to me...I just felt like posting something to usenet
tonight. :)</FONT></FONT>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
You are living a world of double standards.
<BR>
<BR>For instance, do you have to call a black person a spick or nigger to be
<BR>racist? What if you do not have any black friends or talk to blacks in
the
<BR>college? Someone could easily call you a racist because of this and they
<BR>would be justified.
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE><FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT SIZE=-1>Please reply via
email...I'd like to hear both sides of this issue from all sorts of different
people.</FONT></FONT>
<BR>
<BR><FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT SIZE=-1>MG</FONT></FONT>
<BR><FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT SIZE=-1>---------------------------------------------------------------</FONT></FONT>
<BR><FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT SIZE=-1>Words you say never seem to live up to</FONT></FONT>
<BR><FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT SIZE=-1>The ones inside your head.</FONT></FONT>
<BR><FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT SIZE=-1>The lives we make never seem to ever get
us</FONT></FONT>
<BR><FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT SIZE=-1>Anywhere but dead.</FONT></FONT>
<BR><FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT SIZE=-1>---------------------------------------------------------------</FONT></FONT>
<BR><FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT SIZE=-1><A HREF="http://www.sentex.net/~mystery">http://www.sentex.net/~mystery</A> </FONT></FONT>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
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Jesse Jensen
Bob Katayama wrote:
>
>This costs $1000.00's of dollars
What you can't write out "thousands"? Also, if you have a dollar sign,
you don't need to write "dollars."
> He spent $2000.00 to go to college
That's pretty damn cheap. Sounds like he really can't afford software
or books.
> If you're the one that would borrow a friends book and photocopy it
> then
> you probably drink rye and cokes. Also, you would call all Australian
> animals that hops on two legs and has a pouch a Kangaroo.
Huh?
Also, cut out that damn text/html and use text/plain.
Jensen
--
"Get some rest. If you haven't got your health, you haven't got
anything."
Brad Wilson
Mystery Girl <mys...@sentex.net> wrote in article
<5mfj2b$8u0$7...@flint.sentex.net>...
>>>>>>>>>>
Type 2 - the poor/cheap/student people who wouldn't buy that overly
expensive software in the first place.
Quite frankly, the people from Type 2 are too broke/cheap to buy the
original software anyways - so if they copy software, the original company
is *NOT* losing out from this act.
<<<<<<<<<<
Try equating this to non-software:
"Gee, officer, I know I stole this Ferarri, but look at it this way: I
wouldn't have bought it if I had to, so it's not -really- a lost sale."
The fact is, the right to property (be that intellectual or physical) is
the primary issue. I have a right not to have you initiate force against
me, and thus take my rightful property from me. It doesn't matter that you
think you can "write it off" as not having costed me anything.
When you take something from me by force, you have committed the worst form
of evil known to civilized man.
--
Brad Wilson bradw @ pobox.com http://www.thebrads.com
Objectivist, Software Engineer (Win32, STL, MFC, and sockets spoken here)
"The welfare of the people is the highest good" - Connecticut court house
"The common good comes before the private good" - Nazi slogan
Renato Levy
Bob Katayama <bobkatt**@netcom.ca> wrote in article
<338CE7CA...@netcom.ca>...
Although Bob seems to be a little to enthusiastic on his answer, I agree
with him. As a software developer I send a huge amount of my time to
elaborate a package that will be both useful and easy to use. Just like any
professional I have the right to be compensated for a good work.
Exactly because of the Joe Doe in the university that cannot afford what he
needs, companies have put out student prices and SHAREWARE. Many of the
needed software's for a university course have shareware or freeware
releases. Off Course those are not full releases, but by experience I can
affirm that they are quite sufficient for student coursework.
Universities could also establish a used software bank, where old copies of
software could be resold (like they do with books), as long as the seller
would compromise himself to delete all previous copies of it (including
backups). This would hurt anybody and would provide for social
consciousness.
Like Bob said, software is big business al right, and is also the support
for living of millions of hard working people, who have the right to profit
from their work, you've got to think of that before supporting illegal
coping. 8^)
Edward Betts
On Fri, 30 May 1997 05:45:53 GMT, "Brad Wilson"
<this....@my.email.addr> scribbled:
>Type 2 - the poor/cheap/student people who wouldn't buy that overly
>expensive software in the first place.
>
>Quite frankly, the people from Type 2 are too broke/cheap to buy the
>original software anyways - so if they copy software, the original company
>is *NOT* losing out from this act.
>
>Try equating this to non-software:
>
>"Gee, officer, I know I stole this Ferarri, but look at it this way: I
>wouldn't have bought it if I had to, so it's not -really- a lost sale."
What about I have a Ferrari, my friend wants one, I use my super
3D-photocopier to give her a perfect working copy (with the same
number plates).
Neither of us loss out, she would not have brought a Ferrari otherwise
so the company that makes them does not loss out.
(I do not advocate piracy it is bad don't do it, I was only correcting
the previous poster.)
_______________________________________________________________________
Edward Betts, http://www.hairnet.demon.co.uk/edward
Tim Meehan
On Mon, 26 May 1997 20:13:28 -0400, "Mystery Girl" <mys...@sentex.net> was
inspired to say:
>I often wonder why police and software companies make such a big deal over
>software piracy, making EVERYONE seem like huge criminals.
Would you have the same reaction if I started making cheap knockoffs of The
Keeper? :)
-Tim
Tim Meehan - Toronto, Ontario - +1 416 449 2369
tim.m...@utoronto.ca - http://webhome.idirect.com/~tmeehan (under development)
"Very few cartoons are broadcast live. It would Visit www.druglibrary.org and
put a terrible strain on the animators' arms." just say no to trucks.
~curve~
If you can afford a Pentium-Pro 200 mHz, a HP DeskJet printer, a 33 kBaud modem,
a 17-inch monitor, one would think you could afford an extra $300-500 to
register programs like Cool Edit, VuePrint, Forte Agent, Quake, etc.
College students have money for dinners out, movies, concert tix, CDs, video
games, condoms, etc. Why not register the $30-50 per program? If every poor
college student like me registered his software, maybe the prices would drop.
The fact is: college students DON'T register the software not because they
cannot afford it, but because they choose to spend what little money they do
have left on dates, movies, etc. The fact is, college students crack shareware
releases because they can get away with it. If every American could rob a bank
and get away with it, I would think a lot of banks would go out of business.
More expensive programs like Photoshop, Corel Draw, Sound Forge, Wavelab, etc.
are expensive because they are really really really good programs. And because
they are more expensive, even less people will buy the software--thus driving up
the high prices even more.
The fact is, if you use it, you should pay for it. If you can't afford to pay
for it, you shouldn't use it.
~curve~
Russell Gander
I agree with your 2 different types of pirates. However your statement re
companies not making anything out of type 2 people is, IMHO a little off
centre. I believe the companies profit .. eventually .. from type 2 people
as they at least have a little conscience. At some stage of their lives,
they decide they can afford to purchase some ligitimate software, and
because they have had the ***free*** use of, say Office, for the last
couple of years, they purchase the full copy. I imagine that if they hadn't
used Office before, Novell may well have had the benefit instead.
Just a thought
Russell
Mystery Girl <mys...@sentex.net> wrote in article
<5mlek3$bqa$7...@flint.sentex.net>...
Type 1 - the people who sell pirate cds and make profits doing so - they
make a business out of taking away someone else's business.
Type 2 - the poor/cheap/student people who wouldn't buy that overly
expensive software in the first place.
Quite frankly, the people from Type 2 are too broke/cheap to buy the
original software anyways - so if they copy software, the original company
is *NOT* losing out from this act. They neither gain nor lose anything
from this happening.
Don Pedro de San Pedro Grande
On Sat, 31 May 1997 06:14:44 GMT, cu...@bigfoot.com (~curve~) wrote:
>The fact is, if you use it, you should pay for it. If you can't afford to pay
>for it, you shouldn't use it.
Hear, hear.
I fully agree with this. I am not saying that there has never been any
'illegal' software on my HD, in fact there probably always is some. I am
saying that if I use it I pay for it. It sometimes takes me a while - I just
got a real Office 97pro, after having used the Hong Kong version for a few
months - but I always buy what I use. I know a few people who do the same
thing.
So, does that make me a pirate? Well I guess if your definition of pirate is
someone who uses software that hasn't been paid for... Not in _MY_ mind
though.
PS: I now have NTworkstation, Win95, Office97pro, Claris homepage 2.0, visual
basic pro 5.0, visual J++, and a whole lot of other programs that I bought
retail AFTER trying the HK version for a while - sometimes al long as months.
Voodoo
"Russell Gander" <rus...@nzsoft.co.nz> wrote:
>centre. I believe the companies profit .. eventually .. from type 2 people
>as they at least have a little conscience. At some stage of their lives,
>they decide they can afford to purchase some ligitimate software, and
>because they have had the ***free*** use of, say Office, for the last
>couple of years, they purchase the full copy. I imagine that if they hadn't
>used Office before, Novell may well have had the benefit instead.
I think it would be more like shareware - you test and get hooked.
While you can get away with it as a student, 'cause you're a little
fish and not worth taking to court, as soon as you're a business and
making money you ARE worth policing. By that time, you only know the
one piece of software because that's what you've been using all those
years, and you CAN'T learn another. Since you can't keep using it
free, you're basically forced to buy licences for your business.
--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--
-- -- --
-- http://www.islandnet.com/~voodoo/homepage.htm -- in ZAX --
-- I hate spam; don't send it to me. Legitimate -- --
-- replies should go to voo...@islandnet.com -- DH 032 --
-- -- --
--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--
Lisa Morin
Edward Betts wrote:
>
> What about I have a Ferrari, my friend wants one, I use my super
> 3D-photocopier to give her a perfect working copy (with the same
> number plates).
> Neither of us loss out, she would not have brought a Ferrari otherwise
> so the company that makes them does not loss out.
>
--
"We'll fill in the missing colors in each other's paint by number dreams
and then put our dark glasses on." -- Jackson Browne
Lisa Morin, Online
Producer/SpeedNet
lel...@starnews.com (317) 656-1337
Indianapolis Newspapers, Inc. fax (317)
633-1220
*******************************************************************
Star/News Online, SpeedNet, Indiana's Game: http://www.starnews.com/
What Really Matters: http://www.starnews.com/news/matters/index.html
Voodoo
so...@ebij.com (Don Pedro de San Pedro Grande) wrote:
>got a real Office 97pro, after having used the Hong Kong version for a few
What the heck is the "Hong Kong" version?
RiPT
On 31 May 1997 08:15:39 GMT, "Russell Gander" <rus...@nzsoft.co.nz>
wrote:
>I agree with your 2 different types of pirates. However your statement re
>companies not making anything out of type 2 people is, IMHO a little off
>centre. I believe the companies profit .. eventually .. from type 2 people
>as they at least have a little conscience. At some stage of their lives,
>they decide they can afford to purchase some ligitimate software, and
>because they have had the ***free*** use of, say Office, for the last
>couple of years, they purchase the full copy. I imagine that if they hadn't
>used Office before, Novell may well have had the benefit instead.
>
>Just a thought
>
>
>Russell
>
or Corell....
**snicker**
Tony...
Jesse Jensen
Mystery Girl wrote:
>
> I often wonder why police and software companies make such a big deal
> ..............
Stop reposting this crap over and over again! We all saw it the first
time. These are things you're doing wrong:
1) Posting multiple times at once: Today you posted the same message 5
times. That is stupid.
2) Posting multiple times over time: You posted the first 5 and then
you posted a nother 5 a few days later. WTF? That is even stupider.
3) Posting text/html: Set your news program to output text/plain. If
you don't know how, don't post.
4) Crossposting: You've posted this to an insane number of newsgroups,
some of which are understandable; others are stupid. You posted to
"comp.os.ms-windows.pre-release" and "trial.misc.legal.software." Why
ever for?
PLEASE STOP THIS INSANITY!!!
Kona Huilani
I think the 'Hong Kong' version of any software is the euphemism for
'pirated-then-sold-by-an-Asian' version.
Kona Huilani
Instead of supporting piracy and pirating others' work, why not opt for
a standardized approach to obtaining an object which one normally does
not have the means to obtain at full price: BUY USED!!!
This approach can apply to everything from software to a Ferrari (re:
the argument presented in another post on this topic).
However, there is very little stigma attached to purchasing used
software as opposed to a used car for example.
Besides, with used software the only thing you have to check for are
scratches (very easy to do-just hold up to a light source) as opposed to
a car (checking engine, transmission, interior, exterior, etc.). Many
people routinely purchase used vehicles at a much greater risk than used
software would present.
To respond to yet another point mentioned in another post here: instead
of purchasing new copies of PhotoShop and PageMaker, I sell used
versions of PhotoShop 3.0 for $100, Adobe PageMaker 6.0 is $100 and
QuarkXPress 3.32 (which is a better program than Adobe PM) is only $125.
So, as you can all see, there really is no reason for piracy after all
is there???
IMPORTANT: PLEASE DO NOT MISTAKE THIS AS A SPAM...LOOK CAREFULLY...NO
WHERE IN THIS POSTING DO I SOLICIT OR PROMOTE MY OWN COMPANY...I WAS
MERELY RESPONDING TO AN ISSUE WHICH WAS RAISED...THANKS...
Don Pedro de San Pedro Grande
On 1 Jun 1997 03:45:27 GMT, vo...@mail.execulink.com (Voodoo) wrote:
>so...@ebij.com (Don Pedro de San Pedro Grande) wrote:
>
>>got a real Office 97pro, after having used the Hong Kong version for a few
>
>What the heck is the "Hong Kong" version?
It is the one you can buy in HK for US$ 20-40 a CD-ROM. Such a CD-ROM includes
a LOT of software. Over the last few years I seldom, if ever, bought any
software that costs more than $150 without using the 'HK version' first. (Yes
I know that many companies offer versions that either limit the time or the
features you can use, but, for better or for worse, I like to try the 'real'
program for a while.
Kevin Arima
Kona Huilani wrote in article <33912A...@hotmail.com>...
>
>Besides, with used software the only thing you have to check for are
>scratches (very easy to do-just hold up to a light source) as opposed to
>a car (checking engine, transmission, interior, exterior, etc.). Many
>people routinely purchase used vehicles at a much greater risk than used
>software would present.
>
1) You have no way of knowing if the software was "modified" in any way,
especially if the software is on diskette (viruses, etc).
2) You cannot take it for a "test run" to see if it installs/run properly.
Shell out $100 for a used version of PhotoShop, and find out that it didn't
include the second-to-last diskette.
3) Most companies won't support you just because they think a "transfered
license" means that you pirated it. It also is usually a few version
behind the current one, so they may even not support that product anymore.
4) You run the risk of buying from someone who has either pirated himself
to get that copy (warez weenies looking to make a few bucks), or duplicated
that copy (idiot trying to scam people). Remember that sophisticated
scheme where they were mass-producing copies of Windows 95 (was it? don't
remember), exactly down to the Microsoft seal on the box? If you can't
even trust retail box these days, how the hell are you supposed to trust
someone who is offering a used copy?
Oh, and no. You aren't soliciting for business. You are, however, trying
to legitimize an industry which is pretty much non-existant (used software
industry) for your own personal gain.
Kevin "Starfox" Arima
Quantum Leaper
Mystery Girl wrote:
>
> I often wonder why police and software companies make such a big deal
>
> Type 1 - the people who sell pirate cds and make profits doing so -
>
> Type 2 - the poor/cheap/student people who wouldn't buy that overly
>
Type 3 - the company type, a company buys 1 copy and install the
software on all there systems. This is the type Software companies go
after the most.
Very rarely do the go after type 2 but type 1 and 3 are the ones they go
after the most.
Kona Huilani
Kevin Arima wrote:
>
> Kona Huilani wrote in article <33912A...@hotmail.com>...
> >
> >Besides, with used software the only thing you have to check for are
> >scratches (very easy to do-just hold up to a light source) as opposed > >to a car (checking engine, transmission, interior, exterior, etc.). > >Many people routinely purchase used vehicles at a much greater risk > >than used software would present.
> 1) You have no way of knowing if the software was "modified" in any way, especially if the software is on diskette (viruses, etc).
Yes, you are right but most of today's better software is on CD-ROM,
which is harder (not impossible) to alter. I am sorry. I should have
been more specific, I meant there is much less risk purchasing used
CD-ROMs.
> 2) You cannot take it for a "test run" to see if it installs/run properly. Shell out $100 for a used version of PhotoShop, and find out that it didn't include the second-to-last diskette.
Why wouldn't you check what you are about to purchase before you pay?
Also, if it doesn't install or run properly, there is something called
'warranty' or 'guarantee'. You should check with the vendor first to see
if they offer any such policies before making a purchase, whether it's
new software or used.
> 3) Most companies won't support you just because they think a "transfered license" means that you pirated it. It also is usually a >few version behind the current one, so they may even not support that >product anymore.
You must know the term, "You get what you pay for...". Used CD-ROMs are
an excellent alternative for users who don't want to pay full price for
whatever reason. It sure as hell beats piracy. As far as support goes, I
have been a computer user for over 15 years and I have never had the
need to call for support. There hasn't been a problem I couldn't solve
by using the built-in 'HELP' section of any program. Also, without
appearing to be soliciting my own company again, (you make statements
which I feel must be answered, yet I have no choice but to refer to my
own company, so bear with me...)used CD-ROMs are not always a few
versions behind the current market version. I currently stock lightly
used versions of MS Office 97, Adobe PageMaker 6.0, etc. because I
obtain my inventory from businesses which have gone bankrupt.
> 4) You run the risk of buying from someone who has either pirated >himself to get that copy (warez weenies looking to make a few bucks), >or duplicated that copy (idiot trying to scam people). Remember that >sophisticated scheme where they were mass-producing copies of Windows >95 (was it? don't remember), exactly down to the Microsoft seal on the >box? If you can't even trust retail box these days, how the hell are >you supposed to trust someone who is offering a used copy?
Good point, however, what you are saying is that sometimes what may
appear to be the real thing may in fact be a copy (re: Win95) and the
fakes are just that: the fakes. So, if I am going to risk buying a new
copy of something for full price and getting scammed. Then, I think I
would rather buy a used copy of something (often for 50% or less of
original retail price) and also risked getting scammed. Ultimately, who
can you trust?
> Oh, and no. You aren't soliciting for business. You are, however, >trying to legitimize an industry which is pretty much non-existant >(used software industry) for your own personal gain.
> Kevin "Starfox" Arima
What is so wrong with 'personal gain'? Does every action you make result
in all others around you gaining something other than yourself? I can
accuse you of having written the above words out of personal gain too.
How? Maybe you are a software engineer, a retailer selling new software,
owner of a software development company, etc. I think you are starting
to see my point.
The used software industry is already a legitimate industry which does
not need me nor anyone else to 'legitimize'. As far as its existence is
concerned, the sales at my store are equivalent to the sales at new
software stores in my area. There is a huge market demand for used
software. As long as there are people buying new, there will be people
buying used. Look at the automobile market, clothing, watches,
electronics, computers, I could continue on forever.
There are a few pointers I can give to potential buyers of used
software:
1) Make certain that you do your comparison shopping before
approaching a used software dealer. Know what the full retail price
is.
2) Know what is the current market version of the piece that you want.
3) Carefully examine the playing surface of the CD-ROM for scratches.
The playing surface is the side without any printed graphics or text.
4) Buy in person at a retail location if possible. If not, only
purchase from reputable mail-order dealers.
5) If a dealer is willing, have the CD-ROM sent by COD. When the
package arrives immediately open and inspect for damage. If there is
none, then pay. If there is damage, return the package immediately.
This way both parties involved will be protected from fraud.
If anyone has any further questions regarding the issues presented here,
feel free to e-mail me at: used_s...@hotmail.com
Lisa Morin
Quantum Leaper wrote:
>
> Mystery Girl wrote:
> >
> > I often wonder why police and software companies make such a big deal
> >
> > Type 1 - the people who sell pirate cds and make profits doing so -
> >
> > Type 2 - the poor/cheap/student people who wouldn't buy that overly
> >
>
> Type 3 - the company type, a company buys 1 copy and install the
> software on all there systems. This is the type Software companies go
> after the most.
>
> Very rarely do the go after type 2 but type 1 and 3 are the ones they go
> after the most.
>
something without an agreement, by our society's standards is theft. The
difference between various degrees of theft is similar to Dante's rings
of Hell, or the classifications determined by the leagal system.
--
"Hope is a good thing." -- Shawshank Redemption
Sean Gallagher
Kona Huilani wrote:
Can we just drop this "Piracy is NOT always a deadly sin - here's
why." CRAP??
It is driving me insane, I open up this discussion group and there are
about 5 messages about this bulls&*%. Lets just get this straight:
Piracy is illegal and all of you know that. Now I know that I am adding
to what I said I hated -- More discussion about Piracy not being a
deadly sin. But, okay, they are probably right, it isn't a deadly
sin... It's only something that will get you put away long enough that
you will wish you had just bought Windows 95 for 85 bucks or that CD-ROM
game you have always wanted. But in the long run it may cost you more.
CD-ROM games usually cost around 40 dollars, four to five ripped CD-ROM
games could fill up a 1 gigabyte hard drive so you end up spending 40
dollars more. With that extra 40 dollars you could have gone out and
bought that new Flight Simulator you had always wanted since it came
out.
Thanks for reading, and I hope you go buy the software -- it could be
cheaper...
Robert Lee
Voodoo wrote:
>
> so...@ebij.com (Don Pedro de San Pedro Grande) wrote:
>
> >got a real Office 97pro, after having used the Hong Kong version for a few
>
> What the heck is the "Hong Kong" version?
The HK version is the version that is completely cracked and cost very
little. In HK, you can get every piece of software you ever imagined on
a compact disc for as little as $5-7 U.S. There are tons of high-end
software compilations that they put together. You can have as much as
$50,000 worth of software on a CD for a few bucks. You can even buy it
on the street.
Quantum Leaper
Lisa Morin wrote:
>
> Quantum Leaper wrote:
> >
> > Mystery Girl wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Type 1 - the people who sell pirate cds and make profits doing so -
> > >
> > > Type 2 - the poor/cheap/student people who wouldn't buy that overly
> > >
> >
> > Type 3 - the company type, a company buys 1 copy and install the
> > software on all there systems. This is the type Software companies go
> > after the most.
> >
> > Very rarely do the go after type 2 but type 1 and 3 are the ones they go
> > after the most.
> >
> Ah, but isn't it a matter of morality and the rules of society? Taking
> something without an agreement, by our society's standards is theft. The
> difference between various degrees of theft is similar to Dante's rings
> of Hell, or the classifications determined by the leagal system.
>
more types of pirates then the other person was talking about. Yes I
do agree Piraticy is and should be illegal!!! The software companies go
after people they can get MONEY from first, which is the Company type
of pirate.
eric
>>Try equating this to non-software:
>>
>>"Gee, officer, I know I stole this Ferarri, but look at it this way: I
>>wouldn't have bought it if I had to, so it's not -really- a lost sale."
>
>3D-photocopier to give her a perfect working copy (with the same
>number plates).
>Neither of us loss out, she would not have brought a Ferrari otherwise
>so the company that makes them does not loss out.
Better yet, what if I carjack the Ferrari from my wealthy neighbor...He has
money...I need a car...nobody gets hurt...and were all happy :)
The problem is that your stealing someone (a company's) ideas. These are
legally protected by copyrights and so forth...(For some reason I remember
speaches about this stuff all the way back from high school). So Ferrari does
lose out, you stole their work (R&D)...it more than likely cost them a few
million dollars to develop their car. Yes, granted Bill(me) Gates has done
well, but it is still his money and right to collect it. Thats the beauty of
America!
There are still places however that believe in this equal sharing policy, "to
each according to his need"...its called communism.
but hey, warez, warez for everybody!
Edward Betts
On 3 Jun 1997 04:01:21 GMT, scha...@mail.utexas.edu (eric) scribbled:
>>What about I have a Ferrari, my friend wants one, I use my super
>>3D-photocopier to give her a perfect working copy (with the same
>>number plates).
>>Neither of us loss out, she would not have brought a Ferrari otherwise
>>so the company that makes them does not loss out.
>
>
>Better yet, what if I carjack the Ferrari from my wealthy neighbor...He has
>money...I need a car...nobody gets hurt...and were all happy :)
>
>The problem is that your stealing someone (a company's) ideas. These are
>legally protected by copyrights and so forth...(For some reason I remember
>speaches about this stuff all the way back from high school). So Ferrari does
>lose out, you stole their work (R&D)...it more than likely cost them a few
>million dollars to develop their car. Yes, granted Bill(me) Gates has done
>well, but it is still his money and right to collect it. Thats the beauty of
>America!
>
>There are still places however that believe in this equal sharing policy, "to
>each according to his need"...its called communism.
>but hey, warez, warez for everybody!
You failed to quote my last sentance that reads as below.
Voodoo
Robert Lee <lee...@hotstar.net*nospam*> wrote:
>You can have as much as $50,000 worth of software on a CD for a few bucks.
>You can even buy it on the street.
Hmmm... that's almost worth the price of the plane ticket!
paris
Robert Lee wrote:
>
> Voodoo wrote:
> >
> > so...@ebij.com (Don Pedro de San Pedro Grande) wrote:
> >
> > >got a real Office 97pro, after having used the Hong Kong version for a few
> >
> > What the heck is the "Hong Kong" version?
>
> The HK version is the version that is completely cracked and cost very
> little. In HK, you can get every piece of software you ever imagined on
> a compact disc for as little as $5-7 U.S. There are tons of high-end
> $50,000 worth of software on a CD for a few bucks. You can even buy it
> on the street.
I've only just started a PC at home. Everything that I have has either
already come with my PC or I've bought, or I've got my company's
permission to use at home cause they have paid the licensing fees to MS
or whoever.
What I can't figure out is if HK can make it for $5 a pop why doesn't MS
and other software people make it that price also? It doesn't take them
$500 to actually make the discs once they've been programmed. It probably
does only take $5-7 to copy each disc. So why should the consumer pay
these exorbitant rates just to line the pockets of the major pirateer
like Bill Gates, who by the way pirated the MS idea from another buddy
in the first place.
Paris
The contents of this message express only the sender's opinion.
This message does not necessarily reflect the policy or views of
my employer, Merck & Co., Inc. All responsibility for the statements
made in this Usenet posting resides solely and completely with the
sender.
nimrod
Charles M. Kozierok
In article <339D87...@merck.com>, paris <pa...@merck.com> wrote:
} What I can't figure out is if HK can make it for $5 a pop why doesn't MS
} and other software people make it that price also? It doesn't take them
} $500 to actually make the discs once they've been programmed. It probably
} does only take $5-7 to copy each disc.
Because the people in Hong Kong don't have to pay developers millions of
dollars to *write* the damn stuff? Because they have no capital at risk,
no buildings to build, no furniture to lease, no advertising to pay for,
no shareholders to report to, no employee pension funds to fill, no
taxes to pay, no research to fund, no customer support facilities
to run, and no web sites to manage?
} So why should the consumer pay
} these exorbitant rates just to line the pockets of the major pirateer
} like Bill Gates, who by the way pirated the MS idea from another buddy
} in the first place.
Well, if this nonsense makes you feel better...
P.S. Posting this crap from your business account is an embarrassment
to your employer, even WITH a disclaimer.
cheers,
-*-
charles, who's not religious against piracy but *please*...
Alexander Hvostov
paris wrote:
>
> Robert Lee wrote:
> >
> > Voodoo wrote:
> > >
> > > so...@ebij.com (Don Pedro de San Pedro Grande) wrote:
> > >
> > > >got a real Office 97pro, after having used the Hong Kong version for a few
> > >
> > > What the heck is the "Hong Kong" version?
> >
> > The HK version is the version that is completely cracked and cost very
> > little. In HK, you can get every piece of software you ever imagined on
> > a compact disc for as little as $5-7 U.S. There are tons of high-end
> > software compilations that they put together. You can have as much as
> > $50,000 worth of software on a CD for a few bucks. You can even buy it
> > on the street.
>
> I've only just started a PC at home. Everything that I have has either
> already come with my PC or I've bought, or I've got my company's
> permission to use at home cause they have paid the licensing fees to MS
> or whoever.
>
> and other software people make it that price also? It doesn't take them
> $500 to actually make the discs once they've been programmed. It probably
> these exorbitant rates just to line the pockets of the major pirateer
> like Bill Gates, who by the way pirated the MS idea from another buddy
> in the first place.
>
>
> The contents of this message express only the sender's opinion.
> This message does not necessarily reflect the policy or views of
> my employer, Merck & Co., Inc. All responsibility for the statements
> made in this Usenet posting resides solely and completely with the
> sender.
If piracy is ethically equivalent to attacking a ship on the high seas
and slaughtering everyone on board, then it is a deadly sin. Otherwise,
it is not.
Alex
Aussie Bob
I have reservations as to the cost of software given the amount of money
being made by some. But there is the other side as well. The small
company's do not have the market size to amortize costs yet they spend as
much on writing software as the big companies. If MS came down to a very
low price we would all like it for a short time and then would start to
wonder about the lack of choice as all the little companies had gone.
I think large companies can come down further in price or do a better job
with manuals and support but I wonder if I will see it in my life time.
Look on the bright side. Bill Gates is keeping a hell of a lot of people
gainfully employed around the world. Is your favourite author doing this as
well.
I work in support and I am sure there would be less work for me if Bill
Gates produced a better product. Remember also he has to finance the free
copies of IE so he can take Netscape's share as well.
Cheers from down under
Aussie Bob
paris <pa...@merck.com> wrote in article <339D87...@merck.com>...
Mark Haase
>Hi...
>
>If piracy is ethically equivalent to attacking a ship on the high seas
>and slaughtering everyone on board, then it is a deadly sin. Otherwise,
>it is not.
Huh?
Brad Wilson
> If piracy is ethically equivalent to attacking a ship on the high seas
> and slaughtering everyone on board, then it is a deadly sin. Otherwise,
> it is not.
Software piracy is ethically equivilent to the piracy of old. It's when
someone takes something that doesn't belong to them. It's a violation of
the basic idea that gives us freedom.
"Deadly sin"? Sounds like some wacky religious argument.
Most of the people posting on this thread act and rationalize like 12 year
olds. It's no surprise that the world is in such disarray as it is, if
this is even remotely resembling the feelings of the general populace.
--
Brad Wilson bradw @ pobox.com http://www.thebrads.com
Objectivist, Software Engineer (Win32, STL, MFC, and sockets spoken here)
Phoung My Trinh
Alexander Hvostov (shvo...@accesscom.com) wrote:
: paris wrote:
: >
: > >
: > > Voodoo wrote:
: > > >
: > > > so...@ebij.com (Don Pedro de San Pedro Grande) wrote:
: > > >
: > > > >got a real Office 97pro, after having used the Hong Kong version for a few
: > > >
: > > > What the heck is the "Hong Kong" version?
: > > The HK version is the version that is completely cracked and cost very
: > > little. In HK, you can get every piece of software you ever imagined on
: > > a compact disc for as little as $5-7 U.S. There are tons of high-end
: > > software compilations that they put together. You can have as much as
: > > $50,000 worth of software on a CD for a few bucks. You can even buy it
: > > on the street.
: >
: > I've only just started a PC at home. Everything that I have has either
: > already come with my PC or I've bought, or I've got my company's
: > permission to use at home cause they have paid the licensing fees to MS
: > or whoever.
: >
: > What I can't figure out is if HK can make it for $5 a pop why doesn't MS
: > and other software people make it that price also? It doesn't take them
: > $500 to actually make the discs once they've been programmed. It probably
: > does only take $5-7 to copy each disc. So why should the consumer pay
: > these exorbitant rates just to line the pockets of the major pirateer
: > like Bill Gates, who by the way pirated the MS idea from another buddy
: > in the first place.
: >
: > Paris
: >
: > The contents of this message express only the sender's opinion.
: > This message does not necessarily reflect the policy or views of
: > my employer, Merck & Co., Inc. All responsibility for the statements
: > made in this Usenet posting resides solely and completely with the
: > sender.
: Hi...
: If piracy is ethically equivalent to attacking a ship on the high seas
: and slaughtering everyone on board, then it is a deadly sin. Otherwise,
: it is not.
By that logic, does that mean anything which is not open-sea piracy is not a
sin? Whoo hoo!
: Alex
Jim S.
The police only enforce the laws made by crooked politicians like Bill
Clinton.
You are a thief when you take something from another being. Even if
it's a dog.
I gave you an answer once, Why you wanna whine some more?
Get a job. Stop mooching.
Where is it written that you should live above your income level by
stealing??
On Mon, 26 May 1997 20:13:28 -0400, "Mystery Girl"
<mys...@sentex.net> wrote:
>I often wonder why police and software companies make such a big deal over software piracy, making EVERYONE seem like huge criminals. They never seem to take note of the difference between the two types of piraters:
>
>Type 1 - the people who sell pirate cds and make profits doing so - they make a business out of taking away someone else's business.
>
>Type 2 - the poor/cheap/student people who wouldn't buy that overly expensive software in the first place.
>
>Quite frankly, the people from Type 2 are too broke/cheap to buy the original software anyways - so if they copy software, the original company is *NOT* losing out from this act. They neither gain nor lose anything from this happening. If this person happens to BUY the software from a pirate dealer though, that's a bit of a problem. But under normal circumstances when people swap their disks (as ALL students do) the companies really cannot complain. We all know these people cannot afford the software in the first place EVEN AT so-called "student pricing". I don't know if piracy cops target these people the most- but if they do, they are barking up the wrong tree.
>
>It's the people who profit from piracy that are the problem...at least that's my opinion. Piracy is only an issue if it affects anything - such as a business running pirated Win95 on 50 computers. :) Joe Shmo who borrows his buddie's cdrom cuz he's fifteen and has no money is not the problem. :)
>
>Any comments? It seems to be logical to me...I just felt like posting something to usenet tonight. :)
>
>Please reply via email...I'd like to hear both sides of this issue from all sorts of different people.
>
>MG---------------------------------------------------------------Words you say never seem to live up toThe ones inside your head.The lives we make never seem to ever get usAnywhere but dead.---------------------------------------------------------------http://www.sentex.net/~mystery
>
Brian K. Yoder
In article <01bc7695$3bf2bde0$a25e...@ragnar.thebrads.com> "Brad Wilson" <this....@my.email.addr> writes:
>> If piracy is ethically equivalent to attacking a ship on the high seas
>> and slaughtering everyone on board, then it is a deadly sin. Otherwise,
>> it is not.
>Software piracy is ethically equivilent to the piracy of old. It's when
>someone takes something that doesn't belong to them. It's a violation of
>the basic idea that gives us freedom.
>"Deadly sin"? Sounds like some wacky religious argument.
...and your ignoring the difference in degree sounds about the same. The
two are similar in that they are both wrong and that you shouldn't do them.
They are different in degree. Saying that piracy and software piracy aren't
equivalent crimes doesn't mean that one is letting the software pirates off
the hook, it is jsut recognizing the obvious difference between the two.
Do you think we should give the death penalty to jaywalkers and pickpockets?
>Most of the people posting on this thread act and rationalize like 12 year
>olds. It's no surprise that the world is in such disarray as it is, if
>this is even remotely resembling the feelings of the general populace.
The problem is that there are a lot of people who say that there's no
no difference between major crimes and minor ones and that they are seen as
having the only alternative to the point of view that there's no difference
between crime and non-crime. The problem is that both of these are wrong.
There is a difference between crime and non-crime and there's a difference
between major crime and minor crime too.
--Brian
--
+------------------+---------------------------------------------------------+
| Brian K. Yoder | "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human |
| byo...@netcom.com| freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the |
| US Networx, Inc. | creed of slaves." -- William Pitt |
| LAN Doctor | http://www.primenet.com/~byoder/ |
+------------------+---------------------------------------------------------+
Benjamin Ong
Like in the old days pirates used to plunder the ships of the Crown now in
those days people used to complain that the rulers had too much money, so
look at royalty these days.
LETS HAVE A CONSUMER REVOLUTION TO BRING DOWN THE BIG SOFTWARE COMPANIES
AND THE OVERPAID PROGRAMMERS WHO MAKE THEM CHARGE SO MUCH.
(don't only look at MS, see how much Corel, Borland, Lotus, IBM, Symantec,
Netscape, Sun, Etc .... Charge.)
By the way I'm not a software pirate nor do I support Piracy, in the mean
time support Shareware, those programmers are the ones who work hard to
make software and deserve to get our buck.
-Benjamin
Brian K. Yoder <byo...@netcom.com> wrote in article
<byoderEB...@netcom.com>...
Eric Bechtol
> LETS HAVE A CONSUMER REVOLUTION TO BRING DOWN THE BIG SOFTWARE COMPANIES
> AND THE OVERPAID PROGRAMMERS WHO MAKE THEM CHARGE SO MUCH.
> (don't only look at MS, see how much Corel, Borland, Lotus, IBM, Symantec,
> Netscape, Sun, Etc .... Charge.)
"Overpaid Programmers"? By whose definition? Are they any more overpaid
than,
say, professional athletes? Who spent more time studying for their
careers -
the kid who got drafted out of high school to the NBA or the geek up the
hall
with the PHd?
>
> By the way I'm not a software pirate nor do I support Piracy, in the mean
> time support Shareware, those programmers are the ones who work hard to
> make software and deserve to get our buck.
>
> -Benjamin
Sure. I hear those shareware guys at Apogee and Id are eating dog food
these days.
Bob Katayama
I guess you are not a programmer.
If you see how much money is involved in licensing various Software
Development Kits and utilities to create the final program, you would
understand. It is not as easy as just having Windows 95 and C++.
The other major cost factor is promotion and packaging.
It has nothing to do with being software, it is a common cost for
retail products. The cost of packaging runs easily 4 to 5 times the
cost of the actual product to have it sit on the shelf.
Therefore the more people pirate the higher the retail costs are.
This is to offset the loss in revenue due to the pirated copies and
the extra costs to protect the software through third party protection
schemes and licensed protection software.
Hope this helps
Bob Katayama
Benjamin Ong wrote:
Like in the old days pirates used to plunder the ships of the Crown now
in
those days people used to complain that the rulers had too much money,
so
look at royalty these days.
LETS HAVE A CONSUMER REVOLUTION TO BRING DOWN THE BIG SOFTWARE COMPANIES
AND THE OVERPAID PROGRAMMERS WHO MAKE THEM CHARGE SO MUCH.
(don't only look at MS, see how much Corel, Borland, Lotus, IBM,
Symantec,
Netscape, Sun, Etc .... Charge.)
By the way I'm not a software pirate nor do I support Piracy, in the
mean
time support Shareware, those programmers are the ones who work hard to
make software and deserve to get our buck.
-Benjamin
Brian K. Yoder
In article <01bc7b43$08420160$b6d58ea1@benong> "Benjamin Ong" <ben...@pl.jaring.my> writes:
>LETS HAVE A CONSUMER REVOLUTION TO BRING DOWN THE BIG SOFTWARE COMPANIES
>AND THE OVERPAID PROGRAMMERS WHO MAKE THEM CHARGE SO MUCH.
>(don't only look at MS, see how much Corel, Borland, Lotus, IBM, Symantec,
>Netscape, Sun, Etc .... Charge.)
>By the way I'm not a software pirate nor do I support Piracy, in the mean
>time support Shareware, those programmers are the ones who work hard to
>make software and deserve to get our buck.
Gee, I guess that those of us highly-paid engineers who make lots of money
and work 80 hour weeks to get stuff out are just a bunch of slackers who
don't deserve to get paid then? Envy can result in some pretty serious
moral blindness I guess.
--Brian
--
+------------------+---------------------------------------------------------+
Kai Nikulainen
Benjamin Ong (ben...@pl.jaring.my) wrote:
> AND THE OVERPAID PROGRAMMERS WHO MAKE THEM CHARGE SO MUCH.
That's the best joke I've heard in weeks...
- Kaitsu -
Russell Gander
Hiya Bob. Sorry for jumping in at this late stage, but one comment comes to
mind re the pricing of software. (I thought the Americans had this one down
pat).
If you price an item at a point, low enough in the scale, then more people
would buy this product, thereby earning more money to pay for the
development tools etc.
This would propogate itself dramatically throughout the world as people
realised that the piece of software they have been dreaming of is actually
affordable, therefore worth buying legitimately.
Price is one of the major contributors to software piracy. How the hell can
Microsoft justify $NZ800 for Microsoft Office Professional when they ship
thousands of units per week ?? It beats me. No wonder the poorer students
"borrow" [read pirate] the software. Imagine if it was priced at $NZ150. A
bit more affordable AND you get original media nad manuals.
Please believe me when I say I am not trying to preach to you, nor am I
condoning software piracy (I work for a major niche software vendor myself
selling custom software that is being updated as law changes require on an
almost daily basis).
BTW : Thanks for your contributions in this NG. You and Philly really have
some good pieces of advice most days.
Bob Katayama <bobkatt**@netcom.ca> wrote in article
<33A70A22...@netcom.ca>...
Chaz Mania
Russell Gander wrote:
>
> Hiya Bob. Sorry for jumping in at this late stage, but one comment comes to
> mind re the pricing of software. (I thought the Americans had this one down
> pat).
>
> If you price an item at a point, low enough in the scale, then more people
> would buy this product, thereby earning more money to pay for the
> development tools etc.
>
> This would propogate itself dramatically throughout the world as people
> realised that the piece of software they have been dreaming of is actually
> affordable, therefore worth buying legitimately.
>
> Price is one of the major contributors to software piracy. How the hell can
> Microsoft justify $NZ800 for Microsoft Office Professional when they ship
> thousands of units per week ?? It beats me.
Especially when they give IE4.0 away for free!!!
I agree totally. If I could buy Word 7.0 legitimately for under $75,
I'd do
it in a heartbeat, and so, I bet, would everyone else on the block. But
$299?
That's nuts!!
Charles
Aussie Bob
You raise some valid points but let me add one more. I found that people
were more inclined to buy software to get the manuals. Now that the
majority of software is sold without quality manuals ie "go down to the
book store and pay some more to get the manual that we used to put into the
box with the software", there is a real perception problem that buying the
software is a valuable idea.
I work in the industry as well and I have licenses for all of my "I use"
products but I also have my evaluation copies. An evaluation copy is a
product I would not get any value from by buying it but I would like to see
if it is worth buying.
Maybe the software companies today need to be seen to be providing more
value than just the code - which I know is expensive to produce. Adding a
good manual would add maybe the added value to justify the expenses. My
advice is if you USE the product at home or in the office then pay for it.
If you want to evaluate the program then get a copy by any means but DO NOT
use it in your day to day work unless you buy it. Please - some of us are
not Uncle Bill but we still need to eat.
Cheers,
Aussie Bob
--
When replying to Aussie Bob remove the "NS." from my address.
This formatting is required because I am sick and tired of the amount of
spam I have been receiving.
Russell Gander <rus...@nzsoft.co.nz> wrote in article
<01bc7c9a$fa14b480$442e31ca@russell>...
David R. Raymond
Russell Gander wrote:
>
> Hiya Bob. Sorry for jumping in at this late stage, but one comment comes to
> mind re the pricing of software. (I thought the Americans had this one down
> pat).
>
> If you price an item at a point, low enough in the scale, then more people
> would buy this product, thereby earning more money to pay for the
> development tools etc.
>
more people are inclined to buy. There is a basic flaw in your
argument, however. You assume that the major software companies
(Microsoft, Corel, etc.) do not have armies of market researchers and
economists who fully understand supply and demand and set the price of
software based on the maximum profit for the company. If they decrease
the price dramatically, more people may buy the software, but at a lower
net profit. These people aren't sitting on piles of money because they
are stupid.
-Dave.
Bob Katayama
Russell Gander wrote:
>
> Hiya Bob. Sorry for jumping in at this late stage, but one comment comes to
> mind re the pricing of software. (I thought the Americans had this one down
> pat).
>
> If you price an item at a point, low enough in the scale, then more people
> would buy this product, thereby earning more money to pay for the
> development tools etc.
>
> realised that the piece of software they have been dreaming of is actually
> affordable, therefore worth buying legitimately.
Do you really think these students in general that do not pay for
expensive software actually spend money for inexpensive software.
Price really is not an issue. If the program is good and costs
only $10.00, they will have a pirated copy of this one too.
I have known too many students with pirated software that will not
even put 1 red cent down for a program, unless it is a pirated CD
that has 50 or more expensive programs on it.
>
To give you an idea, if you sell 1000 at $10.00 or 100 at $100.00,
who wins. The manufacturer does not. It costs more to sell 1000
units at $10.00 cause the cost to bring the product to market will not
change for 100 units or 1000 units.
> Price is one of the major contributors to software piracy. How the hell can
> Microsoft justify $NZ800 for Microsoft Office Professional when they ship
> thousands of units per week ?? It beats me. No wonder the poorer students
> "borrow" [read pirate] the software.
That's where you are wrong again about the money issue.
When you apply for college, you do not look at just the tuition.
you look at the cost of added books, wrting tools and so forth.
Most students will even factor in the cost of the computer.
Therefore why cannot the cost of the software also be factored in.
This has nothing to do with being rich or poor.
It has to do with time, proper planning, and budgeting.
Imagine if it was priced at $NZ150. A
> bit more affordable AND you get original media nad manuals.
>
> Please believe me when I say I am not trying to preach to you, nor am I
> condoning software piracy (I work for a major niche software vendor myself
> selling custom software that is being updated as law changes require on an
> almost daily basis).
Try working in the R & D department for the company you work for.
Then you will have a different opinion. Really they will mostly
tell you otherwise.
Do you own a car?
Do you think people should borrow a car and not pay for it?
Do you think the prices of cars are justified?
The same reason for car prices being what they are can be applied to
software too.
> BTW : Thanks for your contributions in this NG. You and Philly really have
> some good pieces of advice most days.
>
> Bob Katayama <bobkatt**@netcom.ca> wrote in article
> <33A70A22...@netcom.ca>...
> > I guess you are not a programmer.
> > If you see how much money is involved in licensing various Software
> > Development Kits and utilities to create the final program, you would
> > understand. It is not as easy as just having Windows 95 and C++.
> >
> > The other major cost factor is promotion and packaging.
> > It has nothing to do with being software, it is a common cost for
> > retail products. The cost of packaging runs easily 4 to 5 times the
> > cost of the actual product to have it sit on the shelf.
> >
Hope this helps
Bob katayama
Bob Katayama
Chaz Mania wrote:
>
> Russell Gander wrote:
> >
> > Hiya Bob. Sorry for jumping in at this late stage, but one comment comes to
> > mind re the pricing of software. (I thought the Americans had this one down
> > pat).
> >
> > If you price an item at a point, low enough in the scale, then more people
> > would buy this product, thereby earning more money to pay for the
> > development tools etc.
> >
> > This would propogate itself dramatically throughout the world as people
> > realised that the piece of software they have been dreaming of is actually
> > affordable, therefore worth buying legitimately.
> >
> > Microsoft justify $NZ800 for Microsoft Office Professional when they ship
> > thousands of units per week ?? It beats me.
>
>
> I agree totally. If I could buy Word 7.0 legitimately for under $75,
> I'd do
> it in a heartbeat,
Sure, I would buy are car too at $75.00 but this is not going to happen
unless cars can be manufactured for less than $75.00.
Just because software does not have alot of steal and plastic do you
think it is not worth the $299.00 price?
I guess you do not wear any designer products like Nike, or Polo?
Bob Katayama
It's amazing how many people, (I Mean 1000's) do not feel that they
are doing anything illegal when they use pirated software.
I find 8 people out of 10 that get viruses go so from using copies
of programs. Serves them right for getting as virus.
I come across companies weekly that have been hit by a virus because of
illegal software and this costs them thousands of dollars to have
the virus removed and the computer back up and running.
They do not realize the time lost from the downed computer is costing
them thousands of dollars until it is too late.
If their computer is important to the business then the software
should be also as important.
I think right now we are trying to beat a cow to the ground that
is immune to beating.
Bob
Scott C. FIelds
> Sure, I would buy are car too at $75.00 but this is not going to happen
> unless cars can be manufactured for less than $75.00.
>
> Just because software does not have alot of steal and plastic do you
> think it is not worth the $299.00 price?
HMMMmmmmm.... I sit an ponder over weather I dare reply to this.
First you compare cars to software, which would make me wonder if you
really know the difference. Then you say a price reduction of 75% on one
product equates to a reduction of over 500% on another product. This
shows real common sense.
A car does in fact have a lot of materials, a lot of parts are made by
outside vendors, and have to be purchased, etc.. leading to a large
overhead just to manufacture one car, which makes the price reasonable
when compared to cost to make.
I would love to know the actual price/cost ratio on Microsofts products.
Especially considering that Microsoft has not really come out with
anything NEW in years. All they do is keep adding to existing products,
in most cases, making them less stable, more confusing to the average
user, and lowering the actual value to the end user. There are many
people who refuse to upgrade to newer versions of Office because of the
features they would LOSE. So I would agree, Most of MS products are NOT
worth what they are priced at.
Oh yeah, btw, have you seen some of the 'student prices' on MS products.
Don't try to tell me they don't make a tidy profit on the item they sell
to a student, but for the same product I would have to pay as much as 5
times the price? Lets get real for a moment. Microsoft has the wool
pulled so low over your eyes you can't even see your nose, and you sir,
are loving every minute of it. On the other hand, some of us have had
enough.
-scott
Phillips Brooks
I think you might find if you check the copyright laws of the U.S.A. =
that is you a program and use it solely for your own pleasure, or =
benefit it is not an infringement of the copyright laws. However, if =
you use that program to make a profit in anyway it then becomes an =
infringement of the copyright laws and you are subject to sever fines, =
both by civil suit, and in criminal court.=20
It is sort of like Christ's definition of steeling. "If you go into a =
man's orchard and take an apple to feed yourself, your not steeling, "If =
you go into a man's orchard an many apples to feed your family it is not =
steeling, "If you go into a man's orchard an take his apples to the =
roadside an sell them you are steeling."
Bob Katayama <bobkatt**@netcom.ca> wrote in article =
<33AAFE41...@netcom.ca>...
> Aussie Bob wrote:
> =20
> You raise some valid points but let me add one more. I found that
> people
> were more inclined to buy software to get the manuals. Now that the
> majority of software is sold without quality manuals ie "go down to =
the
> book store and pay some more to get the manual that we used to put =
into
> the
> box with the software", there is a real perception problem that =
buying
> the
> software is a valuable idea.
> =20
> I work in the industry as well and I have licenses for all of my "I
> use"
> products but I also have my evaluation copies. An evaluation copy is =
a
> product I would not get any value from by buying it but I would like =
to
> see
> if it is worth buying.
> =20
> Maybe the software companies today need to be seen to be providing =
more
> value than just the code - which I know is expensive to produce. =
Adding
> a
> good manual would add maybe the added value to justify the expenses. =
My
> advice is if you USE the product at home or in the office then pay =
for
> it.
> If you want to evaluate the program then get a copy by any means but =
DO
> NOT
> use it in your day to day work unless you buy it. Please - some of us
> are
> not Uncle Bill but we still need to eat.
> =20
> Cheers,
> Aussie Bob
=20
Scott C. FIelds
Phillips Brooks wrote:
>
> I think you might find if you check the copyright laws of the U.S.A. that is you a program and use it solely for your own pleasure, or benefit it is not an infringement of the copyright laws. However, if you use that program to make a profit in anyway it then becomes an infringement of the copyright laws and you are subject to sever fines, both by civil suit, and in criminal court.
>
> It is sort of like Christ's definition of steeling. "If you go into a man's orchard and take an apple to feed yourself, your not steeling, "If you go into a man's orchard an many apples to feed your family it is not steeling, "If you go into a man's orchard an take his apples to the roadside an sell them you are steeling."
>
>
You should read the "license" when installing software. They are
ussually just that, a license. You do not technically 'own' the software
you purchase, you ussually are buying a license, in most cases to use
the software on 1 machine. Sometimes the license is nice enough to allow
multiple installations, as long as only one can be used at any given
time by the licensed user. So you aren't even stealing the apple, and
you are still legally screwed if caught.
-scott
Scott C. FIelds
Kobold wrote:
>
> "Scott C. FIelds" <ic...@anewvision.com> wrote:
> [snip]
> >A car does in fact have a lot of materials, a lot of parts are made by
> >outside vendors, and have to be purchased, etc.. leading to a large
> >overhead just to manufacture one car, which makes the price reasonable
> >when compared to cost to make.
> >
>
> This is something of a digression, but I'm curious about how
> much of the cost of software is attributable to marketing costs.
>
> I've a book publishing background, and specialized books that
> sell for US$ 150 - 1000+ cost between only $2 to $30 per unit to
> produce.; but high prices are made necessary due to marketing
> costs. Is the case with software publishing?
>
> --
> kobold
The point of my message was that MS products are just rehashed versions
of old products. In the case of books it could be shown this way, a book
comes out in hardcover for 20 to 30 dollars, later it is re-published in
paperback for 5 dollars. The paperback is the same book that already
sold a bajillion copies in hardcover, and thus, is not 'new'. It was not
re written, and was not heavily marketed, and is therefore, cheeper in
price.
Microsoft publishes a program called BS v5.0. They sell it for a price
based on actual cost+profit+ungodly profit+more profit=ridiculous price.
Next year sales slow down, so they add a feature called widget, that
does absolutely nothing anyone would want to do with BS, but because it
is a new feature, they call it the new BS v6.0, and price=ridiculous
price+ungodly profit x2. Now Win95 is here, and they find that BS does
not run well on it, and is very unstable. To cure this they add a
feature called "idiot proof". Basically this is a feature that prooves
the custommer is an idiot, and will buy the even less stable BS for 95.
Add ridiculously hi superprofit to the price of previous version, and
the people will pay, not because they want to, but because they "THINK"
they need to. In the meantime, nothing really has changed.
Now you would have to agree that the above would not work with books.
(Well, not with most books anyway, I know you can probably list loads of
books that are re-toolings of old books, but not priced at 200 to 300
dollars)
In most cases, if you write a book, then write the same identical book,
add 1 paragraph about how the hero eats spam for lunch to gain super
powers, and change nothing else at all, market the book as the new
version of 'book', name it book v.XX, and double the price, well, how
many will you sell?
Legitimate marketing costs are allowed, PLEASE do not stop publishing
books over this, as books were the first 'internet', opening the
imaginations of the masses to the realms of possible and impossible
alike.
-scott
Peter Dubuque
"Scott C. FIelds" <ic...@anewvision.com> writes:
>Oh yeah, btw, have you seen some of the 'student prices' on MS products.
>Don't try to tell me they don't make a tidy profit on the item they sell
>to a student, but for the same product I would have to pay as much as 5
>times the price? Lets get real for a moment.
That's capitalism at its best (or purest). Charge whatever the market
will bear. Microsoft's selling its product to different markets. Most
businesses can pay $500 for MS Office. Most students cannot. So MS
chooses to take a lower profit rather than dismiss the student market
entirely. If you don't like it, go take a class for $100 at your local
community college and use that to get the student discount. Personally I
find it no more ethically questionable than senior citizen discounts--even
less so, in fact, because students are usually poorer than senior
citizens, so the discount is more justified.
--
Peter F. Dubuque - dub...@laraby.tiac.net - Enemy of Reason(TM) O-
Scott C. FIelds
are fine, I agree, students should get a break, seniors should get a
break. I am neither, and pay full price, and this is fine. What I am
opposed to is legal consumer rape. I would be more apt to believe that
the student price is closer to fair market value, and the normal person
price is a markup above and beyond that. This is similar to the practice
of gas stations in the 70's charging MORE for gas purchases on credit
cards. When this was outlawed they kept the prices the same, and
switched to "cash discounts". In actuallity, the cash price was the
normal price, it was in the wording.
To keep things clear, I AM NOT a proponent of software piracy, I am very
much against this practice. I do not however have to take my raping by
microsoft with a smile and say thank you. I am proud to say that none of
my 4 machines has a single microsoft product installed. There is life
after MicroSoft, and it is good!
-scott
Brad Wilson
> Microsoft publishes a program called BS v5.0. They sell it for a price
> based on actual cost+profit+ungodly profit+more profit=ridiculous price.
Stop right there.
They made the program, they can do with it what they want. Other than your
infantile whining, your choice is very simple: buy it or don't. But stop
making a fool of yourself in a public forum.
--
Brad Wilson KA8RJS bradw @ pobox.com http://www.thebrads.com
Objectivist, Software Engineer (Win32, STL, MFC, and sockets spoken here)
"The welfare of the people is the highest good" - Connecticut court house
"The common good comes before the private good" - Nazi slogan
Brad Wilson
>>>>>
It is sort of like Christ's definition of steeling. "If you go into a
man's orchard and take an apple to feed yourself, your not steeling, "If
you go into a man's orchard an many apples to feed your family it is not
steeling, "If you go into a man's orchard an take his apples to the
roadside an sell them you are steeling."
<<<<<
Geez, this discussion has gotten way out of hand.
Stealing something from ANYONE for ANY reason is stealing. Period. If you
can't afford an apple, get off your ass and get a job.
coates
Brad Wilson (this....@my.email.addr) explained:
: It is sort of like Christ's definition of steeling. "If you go into a
: man's orchard and take an apple to feed yourself, your not steeling..."
: Stealing something from ANYONE for ANY reason is stealing. Period. If you
: can't afford an apple, get off your ass and get a job.
Whew. It's about time an objectivist came along to clear everything up.
I feel better now.
--
john coates "I prefer to talk with children, for it is still possible
to hope that they may become rational beings. But those
who have already become so -- good Lord!"
-- Kierkegaard
Chaz Mania
Scott C. FIelds wrote:
>
> > Sure, I would buy are car too at $75.00 but this is not going to happen
> > unless cars can be manufactured for less than $75.00.
> >
> > Just because software does not have alot of steal and plastic do you
> > think it is not worth the $299.00 price?
>
> HMMMmmmmm.... I sit an ponder over weather I dare reply to this.
> First you compare cars to software, which would make me wonder if you
> really know the difference. Then you say a price reduction of 75% on one
> product equates to a reduction of over 500% on another product. This
> shows real common sense.
>
> outside vendors, and have to be purchased, etc.. leading to a large
> overhead just to manufacture one car, which makes the price reasonable
> when compared to cost to make.
>
> Especially considering that Microsoft has not really come out with
> anything NEW in years. All they do is keep adding to existing products,
> in most cases, making them less stable, more confusing to the average
> user, and lowering the actual value to the end user. There are many
> people who refuse to upgrade to newer versions of Office because of the
> features they would LOSE. So I would agree, Most of MS products are NOT
> worth what they are priced at.
>
> Don't try to tell me they don't make a tidy profit on the item they sell
> to a student, but for the same product I would have to pay as much as 5
> pulled so low over your eyes you can't even see your nose, and you sir,
> are loving every minute of it. On the other hand, some of us have had
> enough.
>
> -scott
That sums up my point very well; thanks Scott. That's why shareware is
such a great deal. When I found out about WinZip, I immediately bought
a registered version. It cost me all of $30, and it comes with free
lifetime upgrades! Not only that, it does exactly what it's supposed
to do without any problems. With that kind of policy, MicroSoft could
sqaush all competitors within a month. Then again, maybe somebody else
will do it and squash Microsoft. Either way I don't care, as long as
I can get a good product for a FAIR price.
Charles
Chaz Mania
Bob Katayama wrote:
>
> Chaz Mania wrote:
> >
> > Russell Gander wrote:
> > >
> > > Hiya Bob. Sorry for jumping in at this late stage, but one comment comes to
> > > mind re the pricing of software. (I thought the Americans had this one down
> > > pat).
> > >
> > > If you price an item at a point, low enough in the scale, then more people
> > > would buy this product, thereby earning more money to pay for the
> > > development tools etc.
> > >
> > > This would propogate itself dramatically throughout the world as people
> > > realised that the piece of software they have been dreaming of is actually
> > > affordable, therefore worth buying legitimately.
> > >
> > > Price is one of the major contributors to software piracy. How the hell can
> > > Microsoft justify $NZ800 for Microsoft Office Professional when they ship
> > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > > thousands of units per week ?? It beats me.
> >
> > Especially when they give IE4.0 away for free!!!
> >
> > I agree totally. If I could buy Word 7.0 legitimately for under $75,
> > I'd do
> > it in a heartbeat,
>
> unless cars can be manufactured for less than $75.00.
>
> Just because software does not have alot of steal and plastic do you
> think it is not worth the $299.00 price?
>
That's simply not a fair analogy. You can't compare cars to software.
Every car has a certain amount of parts that make it up - parts that
cost money. But software is different. All the value is in the code;
there is not durable good there, except for the disk or CD it comes on,
which costs less than $2.00 Whether a software firm sells one copy or
a million, the cost is the same.
So far no one has crunched any numbers, so let's do some math.
Suppose a software company pays 20 guys $100 per hour each to write
code for a certain package. That's $2000 an hour for labor. Suppose
they work on it for two years to get the final version released, after
testing and all. On average, there are 250 working days in a year, so
tow years is 500 days of work, or 4000 hours, assuming 8 hour days.
(There might be some overtime, but I think the other numbers are
inflated, so lets call it even.) That come out to a total of $8,000,000
of labor cost for the company. At $50 for a copy of the finished
package, they would only have to sell 160,000 units to recoup the labor
costs. I'd say it's fair to triple that to cover all the other costs -
packaging, shipping, copying, etc. That's still less than half a
million units to break even. I couldn't find any sales estimates for
any popular software titles, but I'm sure most of them have sold a lot
more than that. Remember, that's FIFTY DOLLARS per copy, and with
exorbitant production costs, there's still money to be made. So I ask
again, What justifies $300 for MS Word?
Charles
Scott C. FIelds
Brad Wilson wrote:
>
> > Microsoft publishes a program called BS v5.0. They sell it for a price
> > based on actual cost+profit+ungodly profit+more profit=ridiculous price.
>
> Stop right there.
>
> They made the program, they can do with it what they want. Other than your
> infantile whining, your choice is very simple: buy it or don't. But stop
> making a fool of yourself in a public forum.
It amazes me how some people will come crying to the defense of the wolf
that just stole the sheep.
If you had bothered to read more than that one line, you would have seen
the point to the message, which was the fact that every new version of a
Microsoft product is touted as an 'upgrade', most are touted as
upgrades, and are simply the same program you already think you own,
with a different look.
Read your MS licenses btw, you will be shocked to find that you own
nothing. Microsoft can require you to remove their software from your
system, and if you don't, you will be breaking the law.
But I suppose you would rather just keep paying and paying for the same
old same old. What would you do if your daily newspaper were to deliver
the exact same paper every day for a week. They would change the date,
and put the headlines in random order to give a 'fresher look', but the
articles would be exactly the same. Every day of the week you will be
billed an extra dime above the previous day's paper, for the new
improved paper. How long would you stand for this? To follow your own
precedent, you would have to quietly pay, its their newspaper, they can
do what they want.
-scott
MS free, 12 months, no crashes.
Sèrpïçð®
On 21 Jun 97 23:40:35 GMT, "Brad Wilson" <this....@my.email.addr>
wrote:
>>>>>>
> It is sort of like Christ's definition of steeling. "If you go into a
>man's orchard and take an apple to feed yourself, your not steeling, "If
>you go into a man's orchard an many apples to feed your family it is not
>steeling, "If you go into a man's orchard an take his apples to the
>roadside an sell them you are steeling."
><<<<<
>
>Geez, this discussion has gotten way out of hand.
>
>Stealing something from ANYONE for ANY reason is stealing. Period. If you
>can't afford an apple, get off your ass and get a job.
>
>--
>Brad Wilson KA8RJS bradw @ pobox.com http://www.thebrads.com
>Objectivist, Software Engineer (Win32, STL, MFC, and sockets spoken here)
>
>"The welfare of the people is the highest good" - Connecticut court house
>"The common good comes before the private good" - Nazi slogan
>
You ham operators should mind your own business before I put the wrath
of sex spammers on your ham groups... TAKE NOTICE and don't take me
lightly. There's the door, please use it.
Sèrpïçð®
"Keeper of the Blade"
Adirondack Trading Alliance
We accept S&H Green Stamps
Peter Dubuque
"Scott C. FIelds" <ic...@anewvision.com> writes:
>It amazes me how some people will come crying to the defense of the wolf
>that just stole the sheep.
>But I suppose you would rather just keep paying and paying for the same
>old same old. What would you do if your daily newspaper were to deliver
>the exact same paper every day for a week. They would change the date,
>and put the headlines in random order to give a 'fresher look', but the
>articles would be exactly the same. Every day of the week you will be
>billed an extra dime above the previous day's paper, for the new
>improved paper. How long would you stand for this? To follow your own
>precedent, you would have to quietly pay, its their newspaper, they can
>do what they want.
Nobody's forcing you to buy the same thing over and over again. For most
MS products I own, I usually skip two or three upgrades because I think it
usually takes that long for the improvements to make the upgrade
worthwhile. But if other people feel that each new version is worthwhile
enough to justify buying it, who are you to criticize them for doing so or
to criticize Microsoft for offering it to them?
I'm no Bill-worshipper--I have a lot of problems with the way they do
business, especially their Walmart-style approach to entering new markets.
But I think you're barking up the wrong tree on this issue.
Peter Dubuque
Chaz Mania <cbu...@epix.net> writes:
>So I ask again, What justifies $300 for MS Word?
The fact that people are willing to pay $300 for it.
Don Pedro de San Pedro Grande
On Sun, 22 Jun 1997 22:19:59 +0000, "Scott C. FIelds" <ic...@anewvision.com>
wrote:
>Brad Wilson wrote:
>>
>> > Microsoft publishes a program called BS v5.0. They sell it for a price
>> > based on actual cost+profit+ungodly profit+more profit=ridiculous price.
>>
>> Stop right there.
>>
>> They made the program, they can do with it what they want. Other than your
>> infantile whining, your choice is very simple: buy it or don't. But stop
>> making a fool of yourself in a public forum.
>
>It amazes me how some people will come crying to the defense of the wolf
>that just stole the sheep.
>
>If you had bothered to read more than that one line, you would have seen
>the point to the message, which was the fact that every new version of a
>Microsoft product is touted as an 'upgrade', most are touted as
>upgrades, and are simply the same program you already think you own,
>with a different look.
Look, I am now using Office pro 97 on a PPro 200 machine running NT4W. I got
here step by step from a 8086 PS/2 Dos 3.1 with MS works. During this time,
more than 11 years now, NOBODY from Microsoft has in any way threatened me
with anything if I didn't upgrade. I did so of my own 'free will.' So, if MS
wants to charge an arm and a leg, and I am, for whatever reason, willing to
pay, so be it. If I think MS is ripping me off I don't 'upgrade,' it's that
easy.
Having said that, I usually temporarily 'pirate' the upgrade and use it for a
while before I decide to get the real one from MS. Why? Just so I can decide
for myself if the 'repackage' if worth the extra $$ _TO ME_. As a result of
this I have made an excursion into "Lotus territory" and skipped some versions
of the MS stuff. In the end I came back to OfficePro because it makes the most
sense _TO ME_.
There is NO reason to pirate commercial software, there is a lot of freeware
out there if you don't want to use the MS crap - yes I think it's crap, but VI
and TEX take too much of my time, so I use Word.
My ¥200.
Chaz Mania
That's pretty much what it comes down to - coupled with that fact that
Word, and the rest of Office, is mainly considered "business" software
and MS knows it can gouge businesses and get away with it. Most
airlines know this too. However, most airlines lower their rates on
weekends, bit I don't suppose MS would consider giving a discount to
home users. . .
Charles
Scott C. FIelds
> >that just stole the sheep.
>
> >old same old. What would you do if your daily newspaper were to deliver
> >the exact same paper every day for a week. They would change the date,
> >and put the headlines in random order to give a 'fresher look', but the
> >articles would be exactly the same. Every day of the week you will be
> >billed an extra dime above the previous day's paper, for the new
> >improved paper. How long would you stand for this? To follow your own
> >precedent, you would have to quietly pay, its their newspaper, they can
> >do what they want.
>
> Nobody's forcing you to buy the same thing over and over again. For most
> MS products I own, I usually skip two or three upgrades because I think it
> usually takes that long for the improvements to make the upgrade
> worthwhile. But if other people feel that each new version is worthwhile
> enough to justify buying it, who are you to criticize them for doing so or
> to criticize Microsoft for offering it to them?
>
> I'm no Bill-worshipper--I have a lot of problems with the way they do
> business, especially their Walmart-style approach to entering new markets.
> But I think you're barking up the wrong tree on this issue.
I am not "barking up" any tree. I have not used an MS product on my
machine for over a year, I am happy, I suffer no crashes, I upgrade
software when the upgrade actually adds functionality, and the upgrades
I do install do not trash the rest of my system.
I am merely trying to clue some people in that MS is not a company that
cares about them, and trying to show the actual practices that prove
this. We can argue the point for years, but facts are facts, MS has done
nothing to any of the core programs people use exept "pretty them up" in
years, and yet everything gets an upgrade every year, and the upgrades
get more expensive, and people keep eating it up, and saying "thank you
master bill" every time.
-scott
Scott C. FIelds
>
> Look, I am now using Office pro 97 on a PPro 200 machine running NT4W. I got
> here step by step from a 8086 PS/2 Dos 3.1 with MS works. During this time,
> more than 11 years now, NOBODY from Microsoft has in any way threatened me
> with anything if I didn't upgrade. I did so of my own 'free will.' So, if MS
> wants to charge an arm and a leg, and I am, for whatever reason, willing to
> pay, so be it. If I think MS is ripping me off I don't 'upgrade,' it's that
> easy.
have the choice of using MS products/upgrades.
Having said that, I have to ask, did you really feel the upgrades you
got were really worth the high price? Be honest here, think of how much
yearly upgrades have cost, and think of wether the program really got
THAT much better.
>
> Having said that, I usually temporarily 'pirate' the upgrade and use it for a
> while before I decide to get the real one from MS. Why? Just so I can decide
> for myself if the 'repackage' if worth the extra $$ _TO ME_. As a result of
SHAME SHAME SHAME. Read the title of the thread. You must redeeem your
computer soul. Say 25 Hail Bill's, and 15 Our Gates' and you will be
forgivven my son. ;)
> this I have made an excursion into "Lotus territory" and skipped some versions
> of the MS stuff. In the end I came back to OfficePro because it makes the most
> sense _TO ME_.
>
> There is NO reason to pirate commercial software, there is a lot of freeware
> out there if you don't want to use the MS crap - yes I think it's crap, but VI
> and TEX take too much of my time, so I use Word.
>
Enjoy then, and I will agree, Lotus needs a lot of work too.
-scott
Bob Katayama
Chaz Mania wrote:
>
> Scott C. FIelds wrote:
> >
> > > Sure, I would buy are car too at $75.00 but this is not going to happen
> > > unless cars can be manufactured for less than $75.00.
> > >
> > > Just because software does not have alot of steal and plastic do you
> > > think it is not worth the $299.00 price?
> >
> > First you compare cars to software, which would make me wonder if you
> > really know the difference. Then you say a price reduction of 75% on one
> > product equates to a reduction of over 500% on another product. This
> > shows real common sense.
> >
> > A car does in fact have a lot of materials, a lot of parts are made by
> > outside vendors, and have to be purchased, etc.. leading to a large
> > overhead just to manufacture one car, which makes the price reasonable
> > when compared to cost to make.
> >
> > I would love to know the actual price/cost ratio on Microsofts products.
> > Especially considering that Microsoft has not really come out with
> > anything NEW in years. All they do is keep adding to existing products,
> > in most cases, making them less stable, more confusing to the average
> > user, and lowering the actual value to the end user. There are many
> > people who refuse to upgrade to newer versions of Office because of the
> > features they would LOSE. So I would agree, Most of MS products are NOT
> > worth what they are priced at.
> >
> > Oh yeah, btw, have you seen some of the 'student prices' on MS products.
> > Don't try to tell me they don't make a tidy profit on the item they sell
> > to a student, but for the same product I would have to pay as much as 5
> > times the price?
I guess you were not aware that the students versions of the programs
are not the same as the commercial versions.
The student versions are stripped down versions like the price is
stripped down. :-)
Lets get real for a moment. Microsoft has the wool
> > pulled so low over your eyes you can't even see your nose, and you sir,
> > are loving every minute of it. On the other hand, some of us have had
> > enough.
> >
> > -scott
>
> That sums up my point very well; thanks Scott. That's why shareware is
> such a great deal. When I found out about WinZip, I immediately bought
> a registered version. It cost me all of $30, and it comes with free
> lifetime upgrades! Not only that, it does exactly what it's supposed
> to do without any problems. With that kind of policy, MicroSoft could
> sqaush all competitors within a month. Then again, maybe somebody else
> will do it and squash Microsoft. Either way I don't care, as long as
> I can get a good product for a FAIR price.
>
> Charles
In regards to software or cars, it's always supply and demand.
We do not pay for a car based solely on the cost/profit margins the
manufacturer determines on the individual product.
The marketing and visual aspect of each car plays a major role on the
purchase price. Easily 20% of the purchase price can be attributed to
the marketability of the product at that higher price.
Back to profit margins again. This comparison can also be applied to
the software we buy.
If you look at the retail price to expense ratio for cars and software
you would be surpassed to see that companies like Microsoft have a lower
retail price to expense ratio.
Remember, upgrades and new software come out every five 6 months to
keep up with the demand for modifications and the ever changing
market trends. Cars come out once a year.
Just like cars, parts of programs are licensed or purchased from
various sources. You are paying for more than the cost of expensive
programmers. Many companies do not even use PC's to write their
programs on. They use Silicon Graphics or other more expensive units
and port the final product over before fine tuning for release.
If you or anyone else has an issue with high software prices, then I
would suggest looking at Dr. Dobbs, Visual Basic Journal or Game
Programers magazines and price all the utility software.
Once you add up the prices for protection software, help menu software,
debugging software, menuing software, title graphics software,
data managing software, communications software and any others required
to create your program, you would realize that this is not cheap.
Once you add packaging and promotion, this can be in the $50,000
range or higher to produce one simple program.
That's why shareware is one viable option.
Even then, more than 2,000 copies must be sold as shareware to be an
effective business venture.
If software was such a profitable venture then we would all be selling
knockoff's or similar programs for a fast buck or two. Reality says
this not possible for most of us.
Hope this helps
Bob
Bob Katayama
happen
> unless cars can be manufactured for less than $75.00.
>
> Just because software does not have alot of steal and plastic do you
> think it is not worth the $299.00 price?
>
Every car has a certain amount of parts that make it up - parts that
cost money. But software is different. All the value is in the code;
there is not durable good there, except for the disk or CD it comes on,
which costs less than $2.00 Whether a software firm sells one copy or
a million, the cost is the same.
That's were if you worked at a software firm, you would say otherwise.
The impression you have about software is that a group of programmers
sit behind a computer and write code to produce programs like
MS Word or Netscape.
Many features within each program is written by other companies.
These features are licensed for use and do not come cheap.
Added these programs are tested on all types of machines from
286 to Pentium Pro's. Who pays for the test equipment?
How do you guraentee that the program works under most conditions?
Also, many programs are not even written on a PC but more expensive
Silicon Graphics machines.
Also when you buy software, you are not just buying the CD or disks as
you conveniently put it. The packaging is the most expensive part of
the software's retail cost.
What do you get when you buy a car? Not much. Just the actual product.
No cardboard box or full colour packaging.
Without the box and packaging, the software would not sell in any
quantity that it does. Would you buy a Herseys chocolate bar if it
was just in a plastic wrap? You wouldn't even know that it was a
hersey's chocolate bar without the colourful packaging.
>
> So far no one has crunched any numbers, so let's do some math.
> Suppose a software company pays 20 guys $100 per hour each to write
> code for a certain package. That's $2000 an hour for labor. Suppose
> they work on it for two years to get the final version released, after
> testing and all. On average, there are 250 working days in a year, so
> tow years is 500 days of work, or 4000 hours, assuming 8 hour days.
> (There might be some overtime, but I think the other numbers are
> inflated, so lets call it even.) That come out to a total of $8,000,000
> of labor cost for the company. At $50 for a copy of the finished
> package, they would only have to sell 160,000 units to recoup the labor
> costs. I'd say it's fair to triple that to cover all the other costs
If all someone had to do is learn a programming language, spend 4000
hours writing a program, and then sell it $50.00 then you are
grossly mistaken. If you use any shareware programs, you would have
noticed that there are crap programs out there.
These were not written overnight. Even crap software has taken many
months and many dollars to produce.
-
I guess you were not aware that packaging and promotions costs
3 to 5 times the production costs of the actual product.
> packaging, shipping, copying, etc. That's still less than half a
> million units to break even. I couldn't find any sales estimates for
> any popular software titles, but I'm sure most of them have sold a lot
> more than that. Remember, that's FIFTY DOLLARS per copy, and with
> exorbitant production costs, there's still money to be made. So I ask
> again, What justifies $300 for MS Word?
>
> Charles
Where do you get the numbers from? If you do not like that analogy of
the car then how about books.
Do you think the price of a book should be based on the number of
pages that it contains? If you said yes then you are not placing
any value on the written word contained in the book.
What about the written code within the software? Is it not worth
something too?
If you want more comparisons then what about jewelry made from a
diamond? It is just a crystal or as some say it a rock.
I guess when you marry all you are going to buy is a $40.00 Cubic
Zurconia ring for your bride!
Hope this helps
Bob
Bob Katayama
> >
> > --
> > Peter F. Dubuque - dub...@laraby.tiac.net - Enemy of Reason(TM) O-
>
> That's pretty much what it comes down to - coupled with that fact that
> Word, and the rest of Office, is mainly considered "business" software
> and MS knows it can gouge businesses and get away with it. Most
> airlines know this too. However, most airlines lower their rates on
> weekends, bit I don't suppose MS would consider giving a discount to
> home users. . .
>
> Charles
Again you only look at the outer aspects of the product when it comes
down to costs.
Airlines can lower the costs on weekends and for what reason?
Have you considered why they lower the price on weekends.
Not because they make money during the week and they can can pass
the profits on to the weekend user by promoting lower costs!
Expenses are the same for a weekly flight or a weekend flight!
Since the airlines cannot recover the daily expenses with the
standard fair on weekends, they must lower the price and hope for
a major increase in rider ship to offset the lower prices and help
cover the expenses.
If you feel MS Word is not worth the price then don't use it.
Uses something else! Like a shareware word processor.
I would be surprised to see a shareware word processor that is as good
or better than MS Word that costs less then half the price of Word to
register.
Hope this helps
Bob
Scott C. FIelds
Bob Katayama wrote:
> Airlines can lower the costs on weekends and for what reason?
> Have you considered why they lower the price on weekends.
> Not because they make money during the week and they can can pass
> the profits on to the weekend user by promoting lower costs!
> Expenses are the same for a weekly flight or a weekend flight!
> Since the airlines cannot recover the daily expenses with the
> standard fair on weekends, they must lower the price and hope for
> a major increase in rider ship to offset the lower prices and help
> cover the expenses.
Do you REALLY think airlines operate on a day to day basis. You are
correct that lower weekend rates are to increase the number of flyers,
but it is to increase overall business as a whole. Most people do not
work on the weekend, so to increase the number of passengers with a
sale, you have to make it convenient for as many people as possible.
This is the same reason most retail stores have weekend sales and
holiday sales. It does no good to have a sale on wednesday from 9 to 5
when most people are at work and cannot shop.
-scott
Scott C. FIelds
Bob Katayama wrote:
> I guess you were not aware that the students versions of the programs
> are not the same as the commercial versions.
> The student versions are stripped down versions like the price is
> stripped down. :-)
umm, NO.
I do not use MS products, but I repair and upgrade machines for people
locally, I have looked at VB that was bought full price, and VB at
student price, same exact product.
Ok, I am tired, it is late, so I am just going to respond to this whole
big chunk here. Sorry for any confusion it may cause.
1. I HIGHLY doubt that MS is paying for anything from anybody, except on
the occasions when they steal code, get caught, and buy the company to
avoid a lawsuit.
2. I highly doubt MS has to worry about the expense of developement
tools (see #1)
Also, you are listing 50,000 to write one program, what if you write
100's, and you do it poorly. Spread out over a wide market based mostly
on a custommer base that lacks knowledge and sees name recognition. Your
50,000 dollars just became less than pennies per copy sold, and as I
said, I doubt MS is buying tools from anyone.
3. If software WASN'T such a profitable venture, then we would have no
software to buy. None would exist, period. Let's glance at shareware, I
have known some people who have produced 1 or 2 popular bbs door games,
sold as shareware, and did QUITE well. No, it is not possible for most
of us, but there are enough small software developers out there selling
at fair prices to prove it can be done.
-scott
Sa...@christmas.edu
On 21 Jun 97 23:36:09 GMT, "Brad Wilson" <this....@my.email.addr>
wrote:
>> Microsoft publishes a program called BS v5.0. They sell it for a price
>> based on actual cost+profit+ungodly profit+more profit=ridiculous price.
>
>Stop right there.
>
>They made the program, they can do with it what they want. Other than your
>infantile whining, your choice is very simple: buy it or don't. But stop
>making a fool of yourself in a public forum.
Oh let him go on. Its entertaining to watch him make an ass out of
himself.
Come visit my new Website!
http://www.ripco.com/~pentius/X-Files.Santa
Website provided by the Central Committee To
Preserve Lake Erie At All Costs- Chicago Cell.
nm...@inetdirect.net
Sa...@christmas.edu
On 21 Jun 1997 01:34:44 GMT, "Phillips Brooks" <pbsg...@apcnet.com>
wrote:
> I think you might find if you check the copyright laws of
> the U.S.A. that is you a program and use it solely for your own
> pleasure, or benefit it is not an infringement of the copyright
> laws.
Yes it is.
> However, if you use that program to make a profit in
>anyway it then becomes an infringement of the copyright laws
> and you are subject to sever fines, both by civil suit, and in
> criminal court.
>
> It is sort of like Christ's definition of steeling. "If you go
> into a man's orchard and take an apple to feed yourself, your
>not steeling, "If you go into a man's orchard an many apples
>to feed your family it is not steeling, "If you go into a man's
>orchard an take his apples to the roadside an sell them you
>are steeling."
I'd like to see the chapter and verse on that. I don't recall reading
that. I think you are grossly twisting some passage of Scripture like
you did the copyright laws.
Sa...@christmas.edu
On Sat, 21 Jun 1997 12:56:52 +0000, "Scott C. FIelds"
<ic...@anewvision.com> wrote:
>Peter Dubuque wrote:
>Ah, but there is a difference between capitalism and discounts, which
>are fine, I agree, students should get a break, seniors should get a
>break. I am neither, and pay full price, and this is fine. What I am
>opposed to is legal consumer rape.
How can you call pricing what the market will bear 'rape'?
> I would be more apt to believe that
>the student price is closer to fair market value,
The fair market value for any item is what people will pay for it.
Just because some refuse to pay the asking price doesn't make it an
unfair price.
I, for one, think that paying more than $2,000 for a car is sheer
idiocy. I don't think that people paying more are getting 'raped'
though. If that's how they want to spend their money, that's their
business.
>and the normal person
>price is a markup above and beyond that. This is similar to the practice
>of gas stations in the 70's charging MORE for gas purchases on credit
>cards.
You could always find a place that sold gas for the same price. It all
depended on how lazy you were. As I recall the 70's ( And this is a
bit fuzzy as Santa liked his poisons more than was good for him in
those days!) most people were extremely lazy.
>. When this was outlawed they kept the prices the same, and
>switched to "cash discounts". In actuallity, the cash price was the
>normal price, it was in the wording.
>
>To keep things clear, I AM NOT a proponent of software piracy, I am very
>much against this practice. I do not however have to take my raping by
>microsoft with a smile and say thank you. I am proud to say that none of
>my 4 machines has a single microsoft product installed. There is life
>after MicroSoft, and it is good!
Sowhat's your problem with them then? You're out of the loop as far as
they are concerned.
Jesse
versions of the same program? Quite a bit. How many people buy the
'full' version of a program over the 'upgrade' version because they do
not have a prior copy. I have the upgrade cd for win 95. I installed on
my pc with no previous version of windows whatsoever. Go ahead, ask me
how I did it.
Mike
What is wasteland95??
> >
> Answer: Wasteland95 is the single most cunningly devised means of assuring
> that otherwise intelligent and functional human individuals will consume
> the majority of their otherwise productive time in unproductive, and even
> counterproductive efforts to obtain useful work from the latest otherwise
> very useful technology, and, thus never become self sufficient, independent
> entities who might otherwise realize that they did not need the percieved
> but ethereal 'benefits' of either big government or big business. Thus,
> instead of ever having a life of their own, their entire production
> resulting from their labor (which is the ONLY true wealth) is effectively
> diverted to the unproductive, parasitic and otherwise completely worthless
> elements of human (and sub-human) vermin and pond scum who dominate,
> control and manipulate them.
>
> When the entire truth becomes known (and nothing is so secret that it shall
> not be known) future liberated generations of the posterity of todays
> Semi-skilled Labor And Vocational Employees and Subcontractors
> (S-L-A-V-E-S) will see that WINDOWS95, like the public school system and
> the property and income tax systems, were nothing more than the tools
> devised by the Manipulative Aristocratic Self-interested Twofaced
> Enterprise Reduction Schemers (M-A-S-T-E-R-S) to prevent general and free
> access to the liberating benefits of technological development. It will, in
> fact, be found that the Windows95 operating system released to the GDP
> (generally dumb public) was incapable of operating as advertised, and in
> fact was cleverly designed to keep the would be users busy at all times
> attempting to make it work, and thereby reduce their productivity to near
> zero, while actual working versions and many other things unknown to us
> today were reserved for use by the manipulators. Thus the 'Gates' are safe
> from the barbarians, and barbarian society is kept in the wastelands; hence
> the name - Wasteland95.
>
> Does that answer your question?
>
> A poud barbarian............
Chaz Mania
> How much money would it cost for software vendors to release different
> versions of the same program? Quite a bit. How many people buy the
> 'full' version of a program over the 'upgrade' version because they do
> not have a prior copy. I have the upgrade cd for win 95. I installed on
> my pc with no previous version of windows whatsoever. Go ahead, ask me
> how I did it.
Don't have to - I did the exact same thing with Lotus 1-2-3.
Charles
Scott C. FIelds
> How much money would it cost for software vendors to release different
> versions of the same program? Quite a bit. How many people buy the
> 'full' version of a program over the 'upgrade' version because they do
> not have a prior copy. I have the upgrade cd for win 95. I installed on
> my pc with no previous version of windows whatsoever. Go ahead, ask me
> how I did it.
Ok Jesse, this has nothing to do with what we are talking about, but
since you told me to do it, I suppose I am now compelled to ask "how did
you do it"
-scott
Les Feinstein
Jesse wrote:
>How many people buy the
> 'full' version of a program over the 'upgrade' version because they do
> not have a prior copy. I have the upgrade cd for win 95. I installed on
> my pc with no previous version of windows whatsoever. Go ahead, ask me
> how I did it.
How'd you do it?
Bob Katayama
Scott C. FIelds wrote:
>
> Bob Katayama wrote:
>
Are you saying we do not see sales from major retail outlets on
weekdays?
Also what does airline rider ship have to do with retail sales.
Do you know who mainly fly during the weekdays. Businessmen.
They fly on weekends too or do you think they take weekends off from
work and not fly?
Lastly, you are not correct when you say that airlines do not deal in
day to day business profits. They do deal in short term as well as
long term forecasts when dealing with profit margins.
When a major airline announces prices reductions, the competitors also
introduce their own reductions within days, not months of the
competition.
Back to the software issue, like in the airline issue, having 10
people ride a flight or 200 ride a flight, the cost to have that
flight will not change. The only way to maximize profits is by
filling the flight to the maximum.
Therefore, if the break even point for software manufacturing is
10,000 copies then selling 1000 would not allow the company to survive.
For a manufacturer to promote and sell 1000 or 10,000 copies the
initial promotional costs will not change. Better the promotion, the
more copies they can sell. Lowering the cost will mean a higher volume
like 20,000 copies or more. . .
Hope this helps
Bob Katayama
Bob Katayama
Scott C. FIelds wrote:
>
> Bob Katayama wrote:
>
> are not the same as the commercial versions.
> The student versions are stripped down versions like the price is
> stripped down. :-)
> umm, NO.
>
> I do not use MS products, but I repair and upgrade machines for people
> locally, I have looked at VB that was bought full price, and VB at
> student price, same exact product.
No it is not, it is missing many of the support files and DLL's.
Yes the base program is the same...
This proves my point. You said earlier that Visual basic commercial
is the same as the students version. If you look at the program
carefully you would see a dozen third party manufacturers listed
with their own addons as part of the program. Some of these third party
tools are licensed by Microsoft.
> 2. I highly doubt MS has to worry about the expense of developement
> tools (see #1) Does that means dozens of Associate campanies write
code for free and allow Microsoft to take advantage of them?
If you look through the Microsoft web site, you would see many
companies listed that support and write code for Microsoft.
Netscape being one of them. :-)
> Also, you are listing 50,000 to write one program, what if you write
> 100's, and you do it poorly. Spread out over a wide market based mostly
> on a custommer base that lacks knowledge and sees name recognition. Your
> 50,000 dollars just became less than pennies per copy sold, and as I
> said, I doubt MS is buying tools from anyone.
>
> 3. If software WASN'T such a profitable venture, then we would have no
> software to buy. None would exist, period. Let's glance at shareware, I
> have known some people who have produced 1 or 2 popular bbs door games,
> sold as shareware, and did QUITE well. No, it is not possible for most
> of us, but there are enough small software developers out there selling
> at fair prices to prove it can be done.
>
> -scott
What do you call fair. . .Ask the same people that wrote the BBS
software. See what tools they used to write the programs.
Too many people think writing programs involve just using C or C++
and you have a finished product. I don't think so.
Bob Katayama
bohu...@yanamama.com
There is a fourth type of pirate, of which I am one. This pirate very
much wants to learn many different software titles, but hasn't the
money to purchase and upgrade all of them, considering his other
current obligations, etc. This pirate downloads a product from an
illegal site, learns it through trial and error, and maybe one of the
Que Special Edition third party books on the subject, and starts to do
some useful work with the product.
One day this pirate is asked to provide a service for his client or
employer which would best be served by the use of this pirated
software he has just learned and has been practicing with for months.
This pirate, wanting to do the best thing for all involved, recommends
this recently-pirated software for the solution, then does one of two
things:
1) If the product is royalty- and runtime-free (Delphi, for
instance), he builds the price of the product into the development
budget, either for his own license purchase, that of his client or
employer, or both if he can swing it.
2) If the product requires separate licenses and runtimes/full
versions for everyone (MS Office 97, for instance), this is reflected
in the company's purchasing budget.
When the project is implemented, all of the following immediately come
true:
A) The software publisher now has, at the minimum, one additional
legitimate license which they probably would not have had if the
pirate had not "acquired" and learned the software at a time when he
could not afford it and his employer or client would not have sprung
for it on a whim.
B) If runtimes or full versions for everyone using the solution are
necessary, then the publisher has just earned a good bit of revenue,
which they will certainly appreciate. If the software becomes the
standard for the company and that company grows, then the publisher
makes much more revenue than you would think.
C) The (now former) pirate has a legimitately licensed copy of the
product, for which upgrade costs will most likely be affordable. If
the now legitimate owner continues to like the software and use it in
development, more recommendations will be made and licenses and
upgrades will be purchased.
D) The publisher has made a profit, the pirate is not a pirate
anymore, and the client/employer has a fitting solution. In this
case, everybody wins.
Now here's the kicker: I am also a software publisher. My software
doesn't sell for much, but there are still people who can't afford it
or who just won't pay for it. I also make a demo version available
from our website which does everything the commercial version does,
but only on limited datasets, but this still won't be enough for the
person who won't stop until he has a full version, free of charge.
This is going to happen. So is the case of Pirate Type #4, above.
Software piracy exists in a cotinuum, not a vacuum, so everything
around it is effected, and it is in turn effected by everything else.
The will of the majority of The People shapes not only the cost and
distribution method of software, but our society at large. Software
piracy must exist more in the way I've described it in this message
than it does in other ways, or the industry would collapse in upon
itself.
I have personally affected over one million dollars in legitimate
software sales to companies large and small resulting from experience
gained from pirated software. My conscience is clear, and I indeed
consider myself an asset to software publishers because I have taken
the following person oath, as corny as it may sound:
"I will acquire unpaid software solely for the purpose of becoming
familiar with that software."
"In return for this surrepticious acquisition of the software, I will
either give an honest, favorable opinion of the software to those who
ask, or I will not give an opinion at all."
"If I like the software, I will be an advocate for its use to
professional businesses and organizations, and will prepare and/or
recommend purchasing budgets to make all acquired copies of the
software legal."
"If I like the software, then I will strive to return to the
publisher, in the form of revenue from sales, at least tenfold the
cost of the unpaid original copy I acquired for familiarization
purposes."
This may be a "code of honor among thieves," but as a software
developer and publisher--and a long standing pirate myself--I cannot
argue with this oath. If everyone took it, the software industry
would be even more profitable than it is now.
It all comes down to the ultimate integrity of society at large. If
the software industry is doomed because of piracy, then so is society
at large.
The fact that you are all debating this subject makes you, most
likely, one of the good guys who gives a damn about the industry. The
fact that you are debating it in some of the newsgroups to which this
thread has been posted also probably makes you someone who has
probably "copied that floppy" once or more in your life. It is a
dynamic balance between right and wrong, and the verdict depends on
which side of that fence you ultimately fall.
You make things better overall by discussing this as free citizens.
God bless all of you.
"Bohunkus"
Bob Katayama
Jesse wrote:
>
> Scott C. FIelds wrote:
>
> Bob Katayama wrote:
>
> > I guess you were not aware that the students versions of the
programs
> > are not the same as the commercial versions.
> > The student versions are stripped down versions like the price is
> > stripped down. :-)
> umm, NO.
>
> I do not use MS products, but I repair and upgrade machines for
people
> locally, I have looked at VB that was bought full price, and VB at
> student price, same exact product.
>
> >
> > tools (see #1)
> > 100's, and you do it poorly. Spread out over a wide market based mostly
> > on a custommer base that lacks knowledge and sees name recognition. Your
> > 50,000 dollars just became less than pennies per copy sold, and as I
> > said, I doubt MS is buying tools from anyone.
> >
> > 3. If software WASN'T such a profitable venture, then we would have no
> > software to buy. None would exist, period. Let's glance at shareware, I
> > have known some people who have produced 1 or 2 popular bbs door games,
> > sold as shareware, and did QUITE well. No, it is not possible for most
> > of us, but there are enough small software developers out there selling
> > at fair prices to prove it can be done.
> >
> > -scott
What for its old news. . .
Does installing an upgrade on a system that has no previous Windows
make you a special person. I don't think so.
Many people did it from day one of its release.
If Microsoft only sold Upgrades, then they would have to sell many
more copies to pay for the R and D and generate profit.
Its people like you and others that pirate that causes the prices for
software to sky rocket. . .
Scott C. FIelds
Bob Katayama wrote:
>
> Scott C. FIelds wrote:
> >
> > Bob Katayama wrote:
> >
> > > Have you considered why they lower the price on weekends.
> > > Not because they make money during the week and they can can pass
> > > the profits on to the weekend user by promoting lower costs!
> > > Expenses are the same for a weekly flight or a weekend flight!
> > > Since the airlines cannot recover the daily expenses with the
> > > standard fair on weekends, they must lower the price and hope for
> > > a major increase in rider ship to offset the lower prices and help
> > > cover the expenses.
> >
> > Do you REALLY think airlines operate on a day to day basis. You are
> > correct that lower weekend rates are to increase the number of flyers,
> > but it is to increase overall business as a whole. Most people do not
> > work on the weekend, so to increase the number of passengers with a
> > sale, you have to make it convenient for as many people as possible.
> >
> > This is the same reason most retail stores have weekend sales and
> > holiday sales. It does no good to have a sale on wednesday from 9 to 5
> > when most people are at work and cannot shop.
> >
> > -scott
>
> Are you saying we do not see sales from major retail outlets on
> weekdays?
during the week, but the majority of the big sales are either weekend
only, or incorporate a weekend into the time frame.
> Also what does airline rider ship have to do with retail sales.
Contrary to popular belief, a commercial airline is a retail business
selling a service. You are in effect, renting a seat, same as renting a
ditch witch from a local rental center.
> Do you know who mainly fly during the weekdays. Businessmen.
> They fly on weekends too or do you think they take weekends off from
> work and not fly?
I never said businessmen did not fly on the weekends, what I said was
that most discounts are on the weekend to appeal to the public.
Businessmen are going to have to fly wether there is a discount or not,
it is the public that has to be lulled in by lower prices.
>
> Lastly, you are not correct when you say that airlines do not deal in
> day to day business profits. They do deal in short term as well as
> long term forecasts when dealing with profit margins.
> When a major airline announces prices reductions, the competitors also
> introduce their own reductions within days, not months of the
> competition.
Ahh, and I suppose keeping prices competitive does not fit their long
term goals of attracting custommers, and staying in business? Computer
shops do the same thing, one shop drops his price on a certain hard
drive, the others will do the same. But they do not look at the figures
for say, Friday and say "well, we make a profit 6 days a week, but
fridays suck, so we are not going to fly at all on Fridays anymore? They
look at the big picture. I would be willing to bet most airlines have
their lite traffic days mid week, and yet weekends hold the most
discounts? Kinda the opposite of what you are trying to say.
How the heck did we get on airlines anyway?
>
> Back to the software issue, like in the airline issue, having 10
> people ride a flight or 200 ride a flight, the cost to have that
> flight will not change. The only way to maximize profits is by
> filling the flight to the maximum.
> Therefore, if the break even point for software manufacturing is
> 10,000 copies then selling 1000 would not allow the company to survive.
> For a manufacturer to promote and sell 1000 or 10,000 copies the
> initial promotional costs will not change. Better the promotion, the
> more copies they can sell. Lowering the cost will mean a higher volume
> like 20,000 copies or more. . .
Exactly, but when you look at the number of copies MS always expects to
sell, then look at the ridiculous prices, it becomes painfully obvious
that they have the average joe user so snowed they can do what they
want.
>
> Hope this helps
>
> Bob Katayama
I sometimes feel I am beyond help, bet you think so too by now.. ;)
-scott
Bob Katayama
You sound just like a person in the states that performed surgery on
patients by reading books during the surgery.
He never took one class and was not even licensed to practice.
He was doing the surgery to pay for his classes that he was supposedly
planning to take later.
Sure the university may have eventually made some money off of him
but what about the patients who are now filing malpractice suits?
What about the sales lost from your illegal use of the program?
Does a drug dealer that donates 10 % of his earnings to help drug
addicts doing the right thing?
Do you think the manufacturers OK your methods because it generates
revenue for them even though the method by which this revenue is
generated is illegal?
I really do not understand people that pay $60.00 - $80.00 for a
third party help book when the original software would cost $150.00
that comes with the original manuals. In some cases, you get two or
three books with the original program.
I think you are just posting this message in the hopes
that it will clear your conscience. :-(
Ren Hoark
This is stupid! You people obviously don't know or want to accept whats
really happening here. If any of you were in manufacturing you would know
how bad your being cheated! Any software title you see on the shelves has
a total production cost to the company that produced it of less than $5.00,
probably much less. If you enjoy paying 500 to 1000% more than it cost to
make a product I feel sorry for you. To add to this, the only reason these
companies are allowed to do this is because of YOU PEOPLE! As with many
other problems in this country and others, if the people could unite (I
once was possible, believe it or not), and boycott these prices they would
fall dramatically. In my opinion a price cap should be put on anything
and everything sold. If a company was legally bound to not charge more
than 100% greater than the cost of producing the product, you would not
believe the price drops on everything! As for piracy? In this case if
software would cost $5 to $10, who in their right mind would take the time
or the risk? No one! If you don't want to believe what I'm saying about
the companies WAY overpricing software to make MAJOR profits per item, take
a trip up to Seattle. There, next to a nice lake, is a quaint little home
built for a average sized family, that didn't take much out of the MS's
profit numbers for a month! (Invite me for tea Bill?).
--
################################
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"Welcome to my nightmare"
Andrew Gill
In article <33AF2CD6...@netcom.ca>, Bob Katayama
<bobkatt**@netcom.ca> writes
£1000 $1600, plus once you've but these you don't have any more, it
would be pointless to by more than a certain number. They also need not
be bought for every piece of software!!!
REAL LIFE EXAMPLE:- id software programmers own 2 P200 in there office,
once these are bought no more computers need to be bought for some time.
Then they can wait say 2 years and upgrade to the best computer, say
$800 an office. Quake has world wide sales of $$$$$$$$$$$$$$. With
this extra cash they set up their 2 p200 in each office, and still have
a healthy profit--with 3 years in production costs-- at least their
product costs $40. The head bloke their owns 3 of the most expensive
Ferraris. So BG has to out do him by ripping off the public
>How do you guraentee that the program works under most conditions?
>Also, many programs are not even written on a PC but more expensive
>Silicon Graphics machines.
5 years. Then when you need more power, sell it recouping some losses,
perhaps half the price you paid for it.
>Also when you buy software, you are not just buying the CD or disks as
>you conveniently put it. The packaging is the most expensive part of
>the software's retail cost.
--
Andrew Gill
Brian K. Yoder
In article <01bc80c2$4e89dd80$fcbaaacc@LLF2> "Ren Hoark" <cal...@dinner.tym> writes:
>This is stupid! You people obviously don't know or want to accept whats
>really happening here.
On the contrary, I have been in the software business for 21 years and
I have worked in senior level positions in software companies (some very
large) for 10, and I can tell you that the profit margins of those
companies aren't all that large (though there would be nothing wrong if that
were not the case) and the risks of the development of new products are
significant. Where does YOUR information come from?
>If any of you were in manufacturing you would know
>how bad your being cheated!
I'm in the business and I know that in general the prices aren't outrageous
given the costs of development, production, maintenance, support, and on and
on.
>Any software title you see on the shelves has
>a total production cost to the company that produced it of less than $5.00,
>probably much less. If you enjoy paying 500 to 1000% more than it cost to
>make a product I feel sorry for you.
*Sigh* If you think that all that the software companies produce is a
couple of dollars worth of paper and plastic then you know NOTHING about
the software business.
>To add to this, the only reason these
>companies are allowed to do this is because of YOU PEOPLE! As with many
>other problems in this country and others, if the people could unite (I
>once was possible, believe it or not), and boycott these prices they would
>fall dramatically. In my opinion a price cap should be put on anything
>and everything sold.
Let's see...how much would it cost you to produce a kidney? How much would it
cost you to produce a big lump of gold you dig up in your back yard? How
much does it cost you to generate one hour of labor at your place of
employment? How much does it cost to produce cataract surgery? How much
does it cost to produce a 100-year old bonsai tree? How much does it cost to
produce a 300-year old antique table? A kiss? An apartment building? A
used car?
Geez. Learn a little economics before you embarass yourself further.
> If a company was legally bound to not charge more
>than 100% greater than the cost of producing the product, you would not
>believe the price drops on everything!
Yeah...nothing that people wouldn't produce at that price would be legal to
produce and would vanish from the market. Investment and research would
vanish in all risky areas of exploration, and you would be tossing people
in jail for the "crime" of wanting to buy something you wouldn't buy.
Who are you to tell people how they may or may not spend THEIR money?
>As for piracy? In this case if
>software would cost $5 to $10, who in their right mind would take the time
>or the risk? No one!
The question is, given prices like that who in their right mind would
risk millions of dollars to create the software in the first place? As for
risks, I would say that giving the government hte power to tell me how I
may or may not spend MY money is about the most dangerous thing you can
advocate. People have rights whether you want them to spend their money YOUR
way or not. It isn't your money in the first place. Keep your hands off.
>If you don't want to believe what I'm saying about
>the companies WAY overpricing software to make MAJOR profits per item,
Sure, a lot of software companies make a good profit. Who are you to decide
that people shouldn't pay as much as they want? It's not your money.
Let's see...if we apply this rule to YOU and not to Microsoft, let's see
where it would leave you. You sell your labor to some employer, right?
Let's see...say you spend $5/day in gas, oil, and repairs for your car,
$300 per month on clothes (a real fashion maniac) and that's $10/day. We'll
even say your lunch at a fancy place costs $20/day. Your total expenses
might be $35/day therefore your labor would be forbidden to earn more than
$35/day right?
--Brian
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| Brian K. Yoder | "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human |
| byo...@netcom.com| freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the |
| US Networx, Inc. | creed of slaves." -- William Pitt |
| LAN Doctor | http://www.primenet.com/~byoder/ |
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