Linux is booming world-wide!!
10505...@compuserve.com
STOP BUYING Microsoft Windows 3.1/ Windows95 and Windows NT. If you do,
you will lose hell lot of money and will become a slave of microsoft.
Microsoft is Fraud, FRaud and FRAUD!! It is bribing the computer
manufacturers and preventing entry of other popular operating systems
and browsers like Netscape !! Microsoft is completely closed and is not
open (does not port apps to other OSes). It is a evil/wicked one and is a
dictatorship!! U.S govt dept of justice is filing law suites
against microsoft...
For example, your company has hundred 486 PCs, and you have to Win95 or NT
it costs you -
OS 100 x $800 = $80,000
C/C++ compiler 100 X $1000 = $100,000
Total = $180,000
Beware of Windog!! Microsoft is cheating you and bill gates and his managers are
becoming very rich and you are becoming poor!!
We evaluated Windows3.1, windows95, and windows NT - all of these crash
most of the time!!
Microsoft will be very soon PULLING OUT OF THE operating system market and will be
concentrating on entertainment industry like (TV shows thru the
INTERNET BROWSER s/w!!!)
With Linux you will get everything for $50 and you can install on
unlimited number of PCs or workstations!!!
Linux has the following features-
1. Has Windows 95 GUI interface!!!
2. Wine/Wabi Windows 3.1 emulator and you can run all the microsoft windows
programs!!
3. Has Native Office pack like - Staroffice, Applixware, Corel which has
word processor, presentation program, spreadsheet,etc....
4. Supports all of the Unix programs written for Sun, HPUX, AIX, etc...
5. Runs databases like informix, oracle, etc...
6. Has native Netscape Browser!!!
7. Runs all of the Java applications!! Has built in Java virtual engine!!
8. Has 14 million installed base world-wide and is growing very rapidly
by every month 8 million!!! Much bigger than Windows NT!!
9. Entire source code of kernel is given to you!! You can tell
me if there are any bugs in them! It is 100% perfect OS.
10. Posix certified and is used by US govt offices and universities!!
11. Linux is UNIX95 branded....!!!
12. Opinion poll in Info World (No.1 magazine) indicates
about 97% of corporations will consider using linux
(In July/Aug 96 issues). Whereas NT poll indicated
only 4% of corporations considering upgrading.
13. Every computer book store has hundreds of titles on linux.
In case of microsoft, it is not Start button but it is a 'Crash' button and
the logo is 'Where do you want to CRASH Today'!!!
Please visit the following sites-
http://www.linux.home
http://www.linux.org
http://www.li.org
http://www.caldera.com
http://www.redhat.com
Linux is a powerful operating system on Intel processors 386 to Pentiums, Sun Sparc,
Power PC, Apple Macintosh, DEC alpha cpus.....and much more to be supported..
It is ONLY OS in the world which is free in cost and also the entire source code is
given to you!!!
The linux is a robust, high-quality 32-bit GUI, multiuser,
multitasking and multimedia operating system that has gained loyal users
among businesses, educational institutions, governmental agencies, and PC
enthusiasts worldwide.
Linux is a viable and low-cost PC alternative to DOS- and Windows-based
operating systems or network servers. It includes the standard Unix
graphical interface, the X-Windows System, supports both 32- and 64-bit
platforms and provides high performance networking with configurations
that are otherwise impossible for NT or DOS-based servers.
In recent months, a number of business applications have been created for
Linux and marketed by several commercial developers. These include
database, spreadsheet, word processing, graphics, and more. Well-known
applications like WordPerfect and Netscape now have versions of their
software ported to Linux. Furthermore, the existence of DOS and Macintosh
emulations (a Windows emulation is on the way) allows Linux to run much of
today's popular MS-DOS and Mac software.
Also known for its flexible Internet connectivity, Linux comes with its own
web server software, programming tools, E-mail and other utilities. In
fact, more than half of all Internet Service Provider (ISP) sites set up
last year were Linux-based; ISP managers have found the combination of
Linux' price, power, and flexibility well-suited to their growing businesses.
Because of the high demand for skilled Unix programmers, Linux is also an
ideal way for novices to learn Unix systems concepts and programming.
Developers have a complete Unix development workstation with Linux, one
that includes the extensive programming tools and languages for a fraction
of the cost of other Unix systems. Furthermore, everything they create may
be distributed royalty-free.
********* JOIN Linux family and save your lives!!! *********************
Brett Wilson
I can understand your enthusiasm for Linux, I like it myself, but please
put some thought into your posts. If anything, the sensationalized
attitude of your post will more likely hurt your cause than help it.
Some of the information is just wrong. Win95 does not cose $800 as you
imply. I think VC++ is also significantly less and $1000. I am sure if
you were buying 100 of them, they would give you a deal. Second, windows
does not *Always* crash. The Win NT *beta* I have has only crashed once.
I am not defending Microsoft (I agree they can be evil and all), but if
you plan to post in the future we would all appreciate it you were not
so simpleminded.
-- Brett Wilson --
Russ Evans
10505...@compuserve.com wrote:
>
> STOP BUYING Microsoft Windows 3.1/ Windows95 and Windows NT. If you do,
> you will lose hell lot of money and will become a slave of microsoft.
> Microsoft is Fraud, FRaud and FRAUD!!
> It is a evil/wicked one and is a
> dictatorship!! U.S govt dept of justice is filing law suites
> against microsoft...
>
> Beware of Windog!! Microsoft is cheating you and bill gates and his managers are
> becoming very rich and you are becoming poor!!
> We evaluated Windows3.1, windows95, and windows NT - all of these crash
> most of the time!!
>
> Microsoft will be very soon PULLING OUT OF THE operating system market and will be
> concentrating on entertainment industry like (TV shows thru the
> INTERNET BROWSER s/w!!!)
> ********* JOIN Linux family and save your lives!!! *********************
A little melodramatic aren't we?
Anatoly Ivasyuk
<10505...@compuserve.com> wrote:
>STOP BUYING Microsoft Windows 3.1/ Windows95 and Windows NT. If you do,
>you will lose hell lot of money and will become a slave of microsoft.
>Microsoft is Fraud, FRaud and FRAUD!! It is bribing the computer
>manufacturers and preventing entry of other popular operating systems
>and browsers like Netscape !! Microsoft is completely closed and is not
>open (does not port apps to other OSes). It is a evil/wicked one and is a
>dictatorship!! U.S govt dept of justice is filing law suites
>against microsoft...
[lots of sensationalized and incorrect statements deleted]
This is obviously flame-bait, and a spam to boot. You couldn't write
a decent explanation and support it with facts even if you knew what
you were talking about. I have been using and writing software for
*both* Linux and Windows for years, and I have found that each OS has
its pros and cons. Your attitude just goes to show how closed-minded
you are, and you only hurt the Linux community with this kind of
posting.
-Anatoly
--
Anatoly Ivasyuk <aiva...@clark.net>
Author of Personal Stock Monitor (latest release: v1.3.1)
http://www.clark.net/pub/aivasyuk/psm
Victor Fung
Oh, no, not again.
Please do not reply to this 'post'. If you want,
do it privately, but do not litter usenet with
this junk.
--
Victor Fung vic...@i1.net
St. Louis, MO http://www.i1.net/~vicfung
Knut Kristan Weber
10505...@compuserve.com wrote:
>
> STOP BUYING Microsoft Windows 3.1/ Windows95 and Windows NT. If you do,
> you will lose hell lot of money and will become a slave of microsoft.
> Microsoft is Fraud, FRaud and FRAUD!! It is bribing the computer
> manufacturers and preventing entry of other popular operating systems
> and browsers like Netscape !! Microsoft is completely closed and is not
> open (does not port apps to other OSes). It is a evil/wicked one and is a
> dictatorship!! U.S govt dept of justice is filing law suites
> against microsoft...
>
> For example, your company has hundred 486 PCs, and you have to Win95 or NT
> it costs you -
> OS 100 x $800 = $80,000
> C/C++ compiler 100 X $1000 = $100,000
> Total = $180,000
snip
> 1. Has Windows 95 GUI interface!!!
> 2. Wine/Wabi Windows 3.1 emulator and you can run all the microsoft windows
> programs!!
> 3. Has Native Office pack like - Staroffice, Applixware, Corel which has
> word processor, presentation program, spreadsheet,etc....
> 4. Supports all of the Unix programs written for Sun, HPUX, AIX, etc...
> 5. Runs databases like informix, oracle, etc...
> 6. Has native Netscape Browser!!!
> 7. Runs all of the Java applications!! Has built in Java virtual engine!!
> 8. Has 14 million installed base world-wide and is growing very rapidly
> by every month 8 million!!! Much bigger than Windows NT!!
> 9. Entire source code of kernel is given to you!! You can tell
> me if there are any bugs in them! It is 100% perfect OS.
> 10. Posix certified and is used by US govt offices and universities!!
> 11. Linux is UNIX95 branded....!!!
> 12. Opinion poll in Info World (No.1 magazine) indicates
> about 97% of corporations will consider using linux
> (In July/Aug 96 issues). Whereas NT poll indicated
> only 4% of corporations considering upgrading.
> 13. Every computer book store has hundreds of titles on linux.
>
I have been trying to install *several* distributions of LINUX.
I most cases, the software did not run completely, due to segmentation
faults - the sources have to be recompiled - but the new compiler had to
be installed first with shit-like installation tools, ...
The CDs were *not* cheap, as there are some motiv and accelerated X
servers on it, it is perhaps only half the prize as Windows NT or the
same as Windows95, but not for free.
It does not support my Diehl ISDN-card, as much more *expensive*
hardware is not supported.
And it is buggy.
The office-suite mentioned is something like pre-pre-alpha-state.
And all the dot-files are the same *CRAP* as the ini-files. It is not
easy to handle Linux if it does not run.
Who knows the 1000 symbolic links, ...
If it had a **registry** - I would like it.
If you could double-click a **setup.exe** for any program - I would like
it.
If you could lay icons on your desktop - I would like it.
If it could cut-and-paste between applications and document linking and
embedding - I would like it.
If it had a Win32-emulator - I would like it.
But: all of these!
But would it then be called Linux NT ?
--
Mit freundlichen Gruessen // with kind regards
Knut Kristan Weber, chemist
University Heidelberg, dept. Physical Chemistry, INF 500, D-69120
Heidelberg
priv.: Angelweg 28, D-69121 Heidelberg, Germany
phone: +49 6221 4108-08 (FAX: ...-13)
--
ftp://129.206.44.60/
[marvin.pci.uni-heidelberg.de]
I spend entirely TOO MUCH time on the net.
<10505...@compuserve.com> wrote:
>STOP BUYING Microsoft Windows 3.1/ Windows95 and Windows NT. If you do,
>you will lose hell lot of money and will become a slave of microsoft.
Thank you.
>Microsoft is Fraud, FRaud and FRAUD!! It is bribing the computer
>manufacturers and preventing entry of other popular operating systems
>and browsers like Netscape !! Microsoft is completely closed and is not
>open (does not port apps to other OSes). It is a evil/wicked one and is a
>dictatorship!! U.S govt dept of justice is filing law suites
>against microsoft...
The Justice Department investigation ended months ago and is old news.
>For example, your company has hundred 486 PCs, and you have to Win95 or NT
>it costs you -
> OS 100 x $800 = $80,000
> C/C++ compiler 100 X $1000 = $100,000
> Total = $180,000
Bullshit: You can get Borland's compiler for $500-600 *tops* if you
get *everything* included. I got it for $249.
The OS costs under $100.
>Beware of Windog!! Microsoft is cheating you and bill gates and his managers are
>becoming very rich and you are becoming poor!!
>We evaluated Windows3.1, windows95, and windows NT - all of these crash
>most of the time!!
Well- if you are going to claim that, then you had better have some
numbers to back it up.
>Microsoft will be very soon PULLING OUT OF THE operating system market and will be
>concentrating on entertainment industry like (TV shows thru the
>INTERNET BROWSER s/w!!!)
>With Linux you will get everything for $50 and you can install on
>unlimited number of PCs or workstations!!!
With Linux you get no tech support.
>Linux has the following features-
> 1. Has Windows 95 GUI interface!!!
Oh, really? Show me.
> 2. Wine/Wabi Windows 3.1 emulator and you can run all the microsoft windows
> programs!!
Except those that run under 95.
> 4. Supports all of the Unix programs written for Sun, HPUX, AIX, etc...
> 8. Has 14 million installed base world-wide and is growing very rapidly
> by every month 8 million!!! Much bigger than Windows NT!!
Show me 14 million users who have it.
> 9. Entire source code of kernel is given to you!! You can tell
> me if there are any bugs in them! It is 100% perfect OS.
No OS is 100% perfect. And did you personally make sure there are no
bugs?
> 11. Linux is UNIX95 branded....!!!
> 12. Opinion poll in Info World (No.1 magazine) indicates
> about 97% of corporations will consider using linux
> (In July/Aug 96 issues). Whereas NT poll indicated
> only 4% of corporations considering upgrading.
> 13. Every computer book store has hundreds of titles on linux.
>In case of microsoft, it is not Start button but it is a 'Crash' button and
>the logo is 'Where do you want to CRASH Today'!!!
>Please visit the following sites-
> http://www.linux.home
>be distributed royalty-free.
>********* JOIN Linux family and save your lives!!! *********************
What a moron. I'm not sure this post wasn't dated April 1st.
Ok guy, you prove everything to me and I'll go and buy 100 copies of
Linux tomorrow :D
--
Steven J. Sobol, Head Geek Personal: http://junior.apk.net/~sjsobol
North Shore Technologies North Shore Technologies ELECTRIC AVE.:
Cleveland, OH http://www.nstc.com (both under construction)
Web Consulting, PC Sales e-mail: sjs...@nstc.com or sjs...@apk.net
Win3.1/Win95 Programming (Speak for North Shore? I *AM* North Shore. :)
Brian Masney
>I have been trying to install *several* distributions of LINUX.
>I most cases, the software did not run completely, due to segmentation
>faults - the sources have to be recompiled - but the new compiler had to
>be installed first with shit-like installation tools, ...
>The CDs were *not* cheap, as there are some motiv and accelerated X
>servers on it, it is perhaps only half the prize as Windows NT or the
>same as Windows95, but not for free.
>It does not support my Diehl ISDN-card, as much more *expensive*
>hardware is not supported.
>And it is buggy.
>The office-suite mentioned is something like pre-pre-alpha-state.
>And all the dot-files are the same *CRAP* as the ini-files. It is not
>easy to handle Linux if it does not run.
>Who knows the 1000 symbolic links, ...
>
>
>If it had a **registry** - I would like it.
Maybe you're refering to the /proc filesystem in Linux?
>If you could double-click a **setup.exe** for any program - I would like
>it.
Personally I don't like clicking on icons...I think it over simplifies stuff in my opinion.
I think Windows is starting to go in the direction of the Macintosh..."Don't worry about
how it works...just use it"
>If you could lay icons on your desktop - I would like it.
I think you'd like a program for X Windows called TkDesk. It gives your desktop the look
and feel of a NeXT computer...give it a try...you might like it.
>If it could cut-and-paste between applications and document linking and
>embedding - I would like it.
I know in X Windows you can cut and paste data between applications. I'm not sure OLE support.
>If it had a Win32-emulator - I would like it.
>But: all of these!
Wine is capable of running Win32 apps. But Wine is still in alpha stage of development
>
>But would it then be called Linux NT ?
>
The thing I like about Linux is the openness of it and the stability of the operating system.
I have never had a program crash on my computer running Linux, but of course Windows95 never
fails to crash on my system
Brian Masney <bma...@cwv.net>
Proud Linux User
Fabrice Deville
Brian Masney wrote:
> [snip]
>
> Personally I don't like clicking on icons...I think it over simplifies stuff in my opinion.
> I think Windows is starting to go in the direction of the Macintosh..."Don't worry about
> how it works...just use it"
>
> [snip]
"Why make it simple when you can make it complicated..."
--
Fabrice Deville
Flinx
On Mon, 16 Sep 1996 00:16:37 GMT, sjs...@nstc.com (I spend entirely
TOO MUCH time on the net.) wrote:
><10505...@compuserve.com> wrote:
>
>>STOP BUYING Microsoft Windows 3.1/ Windows95 and Windows NT. If you do,
>>you will lose hell lot of money and will become a slave of microsoft.
>
<snip>
>
>>With Linux you will get everything for $50 and you can install on
>>unlimited number of PCs or workstations!!!
>
>With Linux you get no tech support.
Not quite true.... there are a lot of Linux Newsgroups and Linux IRC
channels with very freindly people who are more then willing to help
you with just about any problem you encounter setting up or using
Linux
>
>>Linux has the following features-
>> 1. Has Windows 95 GUI interface!!!
>
>Oh, really? Show me.
Umm... it sorta does if you use XWindows, buddy of mine has a Xmanager
he uses that sorta looks like Win95 and acts like it.. but there are
still major differances. If I could remember the name of it I would
tell you... sorry.
>
>> 2. Wine/Wabi Windows 3.1 emulator and you can run all the microsoft windows
>> programs!!
>
>Except those that run under 95.
True but I hear they are working on it now....
>
<snip>
I don't mean to disagree with you too much BUT thought that you
opinions should be expanded a bit...
Anyhow this is my 2cents worth.
FWIW I found the original post very offensive and I have used Linux
and Windows for quite some time now. As well as BSD, OS/2 (2.11ga and
Warp), SCO and the ever present Dos ( both MS and DR). No OS is
perfect for everyone, you have to find one you like and hopefully it
will do everything you want it too the way you want it too. Linux does
have a lot to offer but then so does any OS if you take the time and
effort to tune and play with it.
Flinx
*42? After all this time thats the best you can do?*
Robert Emmons
Does this imply you do get tech support with Windows? I haven't
noticed any, except for the expensive incident, annual or 900-number
kind. I guess poor Bill Gates isn't making enough money to provide any
free tech support. As far as I know, Microsoft, unlike most software
companies, provides zero tech support. In addition, you can buy tech
support for Linux from various companies. See the FAQ or newsgroups.
----------------------------------------------------
Robert Emmons, CalcShop Inc., rem...@interramp.com
I just hope I can get through life without getting
some fatal disease.
Ricky Payne
Does anyone know how to use the mouse "click-to" feature
on win95? This is a function which was available on the
last win3.x and I miss it!!
please email. Thanks.
-Ricky Payne
ric...@ix.netcom.com
William R. Andrews
rem...@interramp.com (Robert Emmons) wrote:
>Does this imply you do get tech support with Windows? I haven't
>noticed any, except for the expensive incident, annual or 900-number
>kind. I guess poor Bill Gates isn't making enough money to provide any
>free tech support. As far as I know, Microsoft, unlike most software
>companies, provides zero tech support. In addition, you can buy tech
>support for Linux from various companies. See the FAQ or newsgroups.
It seems like tech support from the vender is becoming a thing of the
past.
William "Russ" Andrews
wran...@aristotle.net
Vagif Abilov
Robert Emmons wrote:
>
> Does this imply you do get tech support with Windows? I haven't
> noticed any, except for the expensive incident, annual or 900-number
> kind. I guess poor Bill Gates isn't making enough money to provide any
> free tech support. As far as I know, Microsoft, unlike most software
> companies, provides zero tech support. In addition, you can buy tech
> support for Linux from various companies. See the FAQ or newsgroups.
>
I disagree. MSDN CD which I use every day is an excellen tech support,
and it is published by Microsoft. In addition you can subscribe to
different mailing lists, read articles on-line (I think
www.microsoft.com is invaluable source of tech documentation). You can
also get their fee-based support.
Vagif
WinFan
Take this Linux shit to another newsgroup moron!
This is a WINDOWS newsgroup, in case you didn't notice!
Robert Emmons wrote:
>
> >On Mon, 16 Sep 1996 00:16:37 GMT, sjs...@nstc.com (I spend entirely
> >>With Linux you get no tech support.
>
> Does this imply you do get tech support with Windows? I haven't
> noticed any, except for the expensive incident, annual or 900-number
> kind. I guess poor Bill Gates isn't making enough money to provide any
> free tech support. As far as I know, Microsoft, unlike most software
> companies, provides zero tech support. In addition, you can buy tech
> support for Linux from various companies. See the FAQ or newsgroups.
>
Robert Emmons
WinFan <ga...@microsoft.com> wrote:
>Take this Linux shit to another newsgroup moron!
>This is a WINDOWS newsgroup, in case you didn't notice!
>
Dear WinFan,
Thank you for your mature and informative comments.
----------------------------------------------------
Robert Emmons, CalcShop Inc., rem...@interramp.com
Robert Emmons
Reposting article removed by rogue canceller.
Andrew Miehs
> >free tech support. As far as I know, Microsoft, unlike most software
> >companies, provides zero tech support. In addition, you can buy tech
> >support for Linux from various companies. See the FAQ or newsgroups.
>
PLEASE! Save these messages for .advocacy groups. I dont subscribe to
those for a reason! I really dont see what this has to do with WINDOWS
NT Hardware. I dont care if Unix, VMS, NT or whatever is better! I get
paid to maintain various systems, and would like to use news groups to
further my knowledge, not to get hounded by my 486 is bigger than yours!
As far as I am concerned this message is more annoying than the $$$Make
Big Money$$$ as I already can see easily from the title that it doesnt
conern me. And Please dont try to tell me that all the groups this has
been spamming REALLY care whether LINUX is better....
Andrew
Joshua R. Maurer
> I have been trying to install *several* distributions of LINUX.
> I most cases, the software did not run completely, due to segmentation
> faults - the sources have to be recompiled - but the new compiler had to
> be installed first with shit-like installation tools, ...
> The CDs were *not* cheap, as there are some motiv and accelerated X
> servers on it, it is perhaps only half the prize as Windows NT or the
> same as Windows95, but not for free.
> It does not support my Diehl ISDN-card, as much more *expensive*
> hardware is not supported.
> And it is buggy.
> The office-suite mentioned is something like pre-pre-alpha-state.
> And all the dot-files are the same *CRAP* as the ini-files. It is not
> easy to handle Linux if it does not run.
> Who knows the 1000 symbolic links, ...
>
> If it had a **registry** - I would like it.
> it.
> embedding - I would like it.
> But: all of these!
>
certainly more powerful than winNT (My old 386 SX-16 kicked ass when
running it!!) but it's just more trouble than it's worth. If you don't
know all of the IRQ settings and hardware capabilities of your machine
you end up looking at the slowest, most incapable O.S. out there. As
for the copies of netscape and other comercial products I got news...
The supposedly "free" OS requires a $75-150 software package (the afore
mentioned Motif) before you can even run them (that is if you can ever
run them due to the bazar installation methods).
All in all it's a nice OS for power users or high tech engineers, but
until it becomes more user friendly I'll stick with shelling out the
cash (or risking imprisonment for piracy) for my Microsoft products!!!
Robert Krawitz
I've got to agree with the second guy!!! Linux is nice and it's
certainly more powerful than winNT (My old 386 SX-16 kicked ass when
running it!!) but it's just more trouble than it's worth. If you don't
know all of the IRQ settings and hardware capabilities of your machine
you end up looking at the slowest, most incapable O.S. out there. As
for the copies of netscape and other comercial products I got news...
The supposedly "free" OS requires a $75-150 software package (the afore
mentioned Motif) before you can even run them (that is if you can ever
run them due to the bazar installation methods).
You don't need Motif to run Netscape. Netscape's statically linked
against Motif, and most people who distribute Motif-based programs
with Linux distribute binaries statically linked against Motif. And
in any event, some people are working on Lesstif, which will solve
that problem.
--
Robert Krawitz <r...@tiac.net> http://www.tiac.net/users/rlk/
Member of the League for Programming Freedom -- mail l...@uunet.uu.net
Tall Clubs International -- tci-r...@tall.org or 1-800-521-2512
Jens Vaasjo
> >>you will lose hell lot of money and will become a slave of microsoft.
> >
> >
> >Oh, really? Show me.
> Umm... it sorta does if you use XWindows, buddy of mine has a Xmanager
> he uses that sorta looks like Win95 and acts like it.. but there are
> still major differances. If I could remember the name of it I would
> tell you... sorry.
> FWIW I found the original post very offensive and I have used Linux
> and Windows for quite some time now. As well as BSD, OS/2 (2.11ga and
> Warp), SCO and the ever present Dos ( both MS and DR). No OS is
> perfect for everyone, you have to find one you like and hopefully it
> will do everything you want it too the way you want it too. Linux does
> have a lot to offer but then so does any OS if you take the time and
> effort to tune and play with it.
> Flinx
> *42? After all this time thats the best you can do?*
The Windows95 looking manager is fvwm92-2 it comes with latest
slackware distrobution of linux.
Also to the previous poster linux is free to download and redistrubute,
or you can pay $30 to get it on CD-ROM and copy it onto 100 computers
violating no copyright. It comes with C++ compiler and a ton of stuff.
Unfortunatly Linux will never become mainstream regardless of
how powerful it is because it is too involved an OS (not such a
black box - comes with source code and you are told to modify it).
Unfortunatly the PC will go the way of the mac.(one OS maker - all non-
Microsoft OS's are almost dead)
Of course the original poster was the other extreme.
Hundreds of titles on Linux - I DON'T THINK SO!
However Windows and Microsoft will win the OS war because they
are winning now which will cause them to get more users and
because they have more users then they will get more companys making
software for windows and this will attract more users and so on and
so on...
Just my pesimistic opinion :(
Julio Canto
In article <R.32447c10...@usenet.interramp.com>,
rem...@interramp.com (Robert Emmons) wrote:
>Reposting article removed by rogue canceller.
>WinFan <ga...@microsoft.com> wrote:
>>Take this Linux shit to another newsgroup moron!
>>This is a WINDOWS newsgroup, in case you didn't notice!
>Dear WinFan,
>Thank you for your mature and informative comments.
shoulnd't have to post that kind of cultivated reply. Think that as this is a
Windows workgroups and if they wanted to know something about any Unix
mutation, they should have suscribed the other group too.
Of course, it don't excuse him for having put suck a polite reply.
Just live and let code, don't ya think so?
-= Julio Canto =- [PGP]
[ Visual Tools SA @ c/Almansa,62 28039 Madrid ]
[ INet: jca...@vtools.es | Fido: 2:341/92 ]
Carey Gregory
Joshua R. Maurer wrote:
>
> I've got to agree with the second guy!!! Linux is nice and it's
>
99% of us don't give a rat's ass. TRIM YOUR DAMNED HEADERS!!!!
(My last contribution to this spam... promise)
Anthony D. Tribelli
Flinx (sfl...@lightspeed.bc.ca) wrote:
: sjs...@nstc.com wrote:
: ><10505...@compuserve.com> wrote:
: >> 2. Wine/Wabi Windows 3.1 emulator and you can run all the microsoft windows
: >> programs!!
: >
: >Except those that run under 95.
:
: True but I hear they are working on it now ...
Not true in that many 16-bit Win3.x programs don't work either. Problems
are not restricted to Win32 programs.
True in that they are working on Win32 emulation, but they are also still
working on 16-bit Win3.x emulation also. Not a good omen if you want to
reliably run Win32 apps under linux this century. :-)
Linux is great for running UNIX software, but it is a bit weak for
Microsoft Windows based software and marginal for DOS based software IMHO.
Maybe the DOS emulator will become more capable once Caldera releases the
DR-DOS source code. Unfortunately no one seems to have plans on releasing
Microsoft Windows source code.
Personally I prefer multiple boot partitions for DOS/Win3.1/Win95, WinNT,
and linux.
Tony
--
------------------
Tony Tribelli
adtri...@acm.org
Peter Hirdina
>10505...@compuserve.com wrote:
>>
>> STOP BUYING Microsoft Windows 3.1/ Windows95 and Windows NT. If you do,
>> you will lose hell lot of money and will become a slave of microsoft.
Sure. Every evening I pray to BillyBoy ;-).
[snip]
>> For example, your company has hundred 486 PCs, and you have to Win95 or NT
>> it costs you -
>> OS 100 x $800 = $80,000
>> C/C++ compiler 100 X $1000 = $100,000
>> Total = $180,000
I don't that the OS cost $800 if you buy 100 copies of it. I think it would be
more like $100 - $200. Why do you need a C-compiler to use Win95 or NT ? The
company just want's to run a Windows-based network, not programming apps for
Windows. So we come to a price of max $20,000.
>> Beware of Windog!! Microsoft is cheating you and bill gates and his managers are
>> becoming very rich and you are becoming poor!!
Why should I become poor ?
>> We evaluated Windows3.1, windows95, and windows NT - all of these crash
>> most of the time!!
Ok Win 3.1 was a big bug. I never used Win95 so I don't know how stable it
really is, but NT _is_ extremly stable. My Server is up since march 96 and did
never crash. BTW How did you come to these results ?
[snip]
>> With Linux you will get everything for $50 and you can install on
>> unlimited number of PCs or workstations!!!
Yep, one point for Linux :-).
>> Linux has the following features-
>> 1. Has Windows 95 GUI interface!!!
Not really.
>> 2. Wine/Wabi Windows 3.1 emulator and you can run all the microsoft windows
>> programs!!
You forgot the NT and Win95 programs.
[snip]
>> 7. Runs all of the Java applications!! Has built in Java virtual engine!!
My Netscape browser does that too ;-).
>> 8. Has 14 million installed base world-wide and is growing very rapidly
>> by every month 8 million!!! Much bigger than Windows NT!!
Dreaming, eh ?
[snip]
>> 12. Opinion poll in Info World (No.1 magazine) indicates
>> about 97% of corporations will consider using linux
>> (In July/Aug 96 issues). Whereas NT poll indicated
>> only 4% of corporations considering upgrading.
Most compinies I know have already upgraded to NT. Even some Universities I
know either consider installing NT on their Workstations or have done it
already.
>> 13. Every computer book store has hundreds of titles on linux.
You will need them to configure Linux to your likes.
[snip]
>> Linux is a powerful operating system on Intel processors 386 to Pentiums, Sun Sparc,
>> Power PC, Apple Macintosh, DEC alpha cpus.....and much more to be supported..
I run WWW/ftp/mail/dns services on my NT-server and this server is also used
as file-server for my network. The machine is a Pentium 90 with 32 MBytes of
RAM and it runs fast.
NT is also available for various platforms like Intel, Mips, Dec Alpha,
PowerPC.
>> It is ONLY OS in the world which is free in cost and also the entire source code is
>> given to you!!!
Didn't you forget FreeBSD and some others ?
>> The linux is a robust, high-quality 32-bit GUI, multiuser,
>> multitasking and multimedia operating system that has gained loyal users
>> among businesses, educational institutions, governmental agencies, and PC
>> enthusiasts worldwide.
Sure, that's true. I used Linux myself for some months. But I want an "easy to
use" OS. With Linux I had to read man-pages over man-pages and it took me
several hours until I only had configured X-Windows to run at 1280x1024 in
truecolor using the whole screen. Thus I like the OSes from MS where you are
asked some simple questions during setup and everything work's well.
>> Linux is a viable and low-cost PC alternative to DOS- and Windows-based
>> operating systems or network servers. It includes the standard Unix
>> graphical interface, the X-Windows System, supports both 32- and 64-bit
>> platforms and provides high performance networking with configurations
>> that are otherwise impossible for NT or DOS-based servers.
What configurations do you mean ? Let us all know.
>> Because of the high demand for skilled Unix programmers, Linux is also an
>> ideal way for novices to learn Unix systems concepts and programming.
>> Developers have a complete Unix development workstation with Linux, one
>> that includes the extensive programming tools and languages for a fraction
>> of the cost of other Unix systems. Furthermore, everything they create may
>> be distributed royalty-free.
That's my view of Linux. An OS from programmers for programmers.
Peter, a NT fan
=============================================================================
"Don't take life to serious"
Terry Lin
In article <524q38$5...@news-central.tiac.net>, r...@sunspot.tiac.net (Robert Krawitz)
<323D47...@ix.urz.uni-heidelberg.de> <3245A5...@enter.net> wrote:
>You don't need Motif to run Netscape. Netscape's statically linked
>against Motif, and most people who distribute Motif-based programs
>with Linux distribute binaries statically linked against Motif. And
>in any event, some people are working on Lesstif, which will solve
>that problem.
Which means excessive memory usage... think of it... multiple programs using
multiple instances of identical widgets libraries... what a waste!
Terry Lin
<tl...@servtech.com>
Carey Gregory
Anthony D. Tribelli wrote:
>
> [blah blah blah]
>
Would you spamming idiots take your assinine linux debate to *ONE* newsgroup where someone gives a
shit!!!!
Grum
Andrew Miehs <ami...@cybernet-ag.net> wrote:
>Andrew
Listen, you maron, just closing your eyes doesn't mean things don't
happen, doesn't mean there aren't good stuff out there. You can close
your eyes not to read linux, but I want, I want to see if there are
better things in life.
I want to see/hear/know better solutions! Why should I stuck with
Microsoft!? because I know nothing other than that?
Shut up, piss and fuck off idiot if you don't want to know anything
about linux!
Isaac
inne...@iinet.net.au
Julio Canto
In article <52fju1$4...@yarrow.wt.com.au>, prop...@wt.com.au (Grum) wrote:
>>conern me. And Please dont try to tell me that all the groups this has
>>been spamming REALLY care whether LINUX is better....
>about linux!
It's surprising how the people looses the politeness in this areas...
You're like a brat in the middle of a tantrum (not, the mine it's the best.
Not, the mine it's better than yours).
Maybe you're really little boys or at least at mind...
Anyway, the Linux post should be on the Linux newsgrous.
And If you whant to piss about someone or some OS, please use the f*cking
advocacy areas.
I would be shame about me if a 21 years old man should have to tell me how
to write in a 'public' area.
Bob Zwarick
In article <324c3142...@news.eunet.be>, rog...@tab.eunet.be says...
|
|>Shut up, piss and fuck off idiot if you don't want to know anything
|>about linux!
|>
|
Actually, we bikers used to use Linux, but then we grew up.
--
Bob
http://www.trystero.com/kirwaido.html
Roger Moortgat
>Shut up, piss and fuck off idiot if you don't want to know anything
>about linux!
>
Try your luck in one of the motorcycle groups. They'll love you.
Roger
*******************************************************
rog...@tab.eunet.be
"You can't always get what you want"
*******************************************************
Vagif Abilov
Grum wrote:
> Shut up, piss and fuck off idiot if you don't want to know anything
> about linux!
>
Is this language common for all Linux fans? Or is it what you get when
you call free support number for Linux?
Vagif
Warren Brown
> >dictatorship!! U.S govt dept of justice is filing law suites
> >against microsoft...
>
> The Justice Department investigation ended months ago and is old news.
Microsoft is too stupid to learn and are being looked at very deeply
once again by the DOJ. I'd dearly love to see the DOJ slap Billy G. and
his moronic sidekicks down... Maybe this time the DOJ will do something
useful with our tax dollars and bust their asses...
I am upset that they seem to think we cannot format a hard drive (in
reference to SP2). I've had a 4gig scsi drive for a couple years now
and am running a Pentium 166 with 64megs and a 4meg PCI video card.
What in God's name is outdated in that setup that needs updating, except
Win95 itself??? Who the hell do they think they're dealing with. The
average user couldn't successfully erase a file let alone format a
drive, so why not post it as "use at your own risk" as they do for
PowerToys and KernalToys? I reduced my partition sizes from 2 2gigs to
4 1gigs and got back 400megs. There are at least another 500megs
laying there waiting for FAT32 to rescue them. I do PC support about
70-90 hours per week and have fdisked, formatted, and restored more
files and applications then I care to remember. Those who can do it,
should be allowed to. Those who cannot, should already know their
limits and keep their fingers off (a good policy for most pc related
issues).
Microsoft is behaving more and more irreputable. Last month I found out
that MS WinNT Workstation is the same executable (byte for byte)
compared with Server. The only difference is a registry entry! They
are now telling people that they cannot run server type software on
anything except WinNT Server (want to bet they add this to the Memphis
license before they release???) Why just server? Because it "includes"
their internet tools, FrontPage, IIS, etc. Sounds pretty
non-competitive to me...
I'm doing my part to impact MS's bottom line. The new Corel WordPerfect
suite is awesome and appears very stable. They are bundling it with
many new PC's for a quarter of what MS bundles their suite. Corel is
also selling it as a server license (all the PC's on a singe file server
are legal to run it) for just $895. Flush this mickeysoft crap, and let
them know they are stupid!
I hope to outlive the great mickeysoft dynasty. If I do, when they
fall, everyone is invited over for a weinie roast. Just bring your old
mickeysoft manuals for the fires...
Later,
Warren
Lasse Østerild
No, this is NOT the language of Linux freaks, most of us unix freaks are
actually quite normal, we just prefer unix.. I have no idea who this
jerk is, definitly not a sane unix dude.
--
Regards,
Lasse Østerild Voice : +45-4489-8254, Fax: -8700
Robert Bosch A/S, Dept. QI/Lsr-bl E-Mail: Lasse.O...@rt.bosch.de
Computer Consultant
Comments expressed here are my own and may not reflect those of my
employer
Mark Lehrer
Lasse Østerild <Lasse.O...@rt.bosch.de> writes:
yes, jerks like this give us linux fans a bad name.
please keep stupid religious postings to the *.advocacy.* groups.
Zach Scott
Joshua R. Maurer wrote:
>
> > I have been trying to install *several* distributions of LINUX.
> > I most cases, the software did not run completely, due to segmentation
> > faults - the sources have to be recompiled - but the new compiler had to
> > be installed first with shit-like installation tools, ...
> > The CDs were *not* cheap, as there are some motiv and accelerated X
> > servers on it, it is perhaps only half the prize as Windows NT or the
> > same as Windows95, but not for free.
> > It does not support my Diehl ISDN-card, as much more *expensive*
> > hardware is not supported.
> > And it is buggy.
> > The office-suite mentioned is something like pre-pre-alpha-state.
> > And all the dot-files are the same *CRAP* as the ini-files. It is not
> > easy to handle Linux if it does not run.
> > Who knows the 1000 symbolic links, ...
> >
> > If it had a **registry** - I would like it.
> > If you could double-click a **setup.exe** for any program - I would like
> > it.
> > If you could lay icons on your desktop - I would like it.
> > If it could cut-and-paste between applications and document linking and
> > embedding - I would like it.
> > If it had a Win32-emulator - I would like it.
> > But: all of these!
> >
> > But would it then be called Linux NT ?
> running it!!) but it's just more trouble than it's worth. If you don't
> know all of the IRQ settings and hardware capabilities of your machine
> you end up looking at the slowest, most incapable O.S. out there. As
> for the copies of netscape and other comercial products I got news...
> The supposedly "free" OS requires a $75-150 software package (the afore
> mentioned Motif) before you can even run them (that is if you can ever
> run them due to the bazar installation methods).
>
> until it becomes more user friendly I'll stick with shelling out the
> cash (or risking imprisonment for piracy) for my Microsoft products!!!
I guess I'll voice my opinion too. The question that was not asked here
is
perhaps the most important question. Who are windows products catering
to?
From my experience with WindowsNT, Windows95, Linux, ... I would say
that
for beginners, and end-users, windows products are great. However
Windows NT
Server does not seem like something a beginner or end-user would need,
or want
to use. Why then is the interface, and the assuptions built into NT,
designed
for beginners? I have been developing a major application for NT over
the past
year, and to be honest I can't wait to port it to some UNIX flavor OS.
Let's do a comparison here. Anyone with software development experience
knows
that there is a huge difference between "Easy To Learn" and "Easy To
Use". What
you seek is Easy To Learn, as does the end-user. What an administrator,
or
serious develper seeks is easy to use. Once a person has in depth
knowledge, and
experience with both types of systems, the "Easy To Use" system becomes
an
obvious preference. For example, I am a system administrator on a
Windows NT
machine. I want to copy all files on the entire hard drive with the
extension .c
that have been modified in the last 24 hours to \tmp, at the same time I
would
like to create a document that lists the files that were copied, and
just for
fun, I would like this to be done every time I log out. I would be
there for hours doing that with NT if it is at all possible without
writing
my own code to do it, but with linux that would take around 10 minutes.
Of course I could probably buy a piece of sofware for the NT machine
that would
allow me to do this, but the problem is, there will always be something
that this
piece of software, or that piece of software will not do. There is just
no
flexibility with this type of system.
So my point... Windows is great for end-users, and that's it.
--
Zach
Jeff Stanton
Well, your feeling of "I can't wait" in evaporate quickly in the Unix
world. Once you start working on programming widgets and find out that
the portability sucks. You will then revert to static linking and wonder
why your code is bloated. Still the neat widgets don't always look right
under every window manager. Then, the kicker will be when you need to
print. At this point, you will be chewing bottles of advil or spending
a hell of alot of money for other peoples code to make it easier on
yourself.
My point is that the Unix world of windows programming is not all that
rosey as you paint above. I would agree regarding shell/script
programming.
But you can bring NT up to par with MKS and other utilities. Why MS
doesn't
provide this with NT out of the box, I give up!
Russell A. Schultz
take a look at "backup /?"
I think that would do what you want. Or maybe use even PKZIP! Or,
heaven forbid, write a batch file to do it. There's a bundle of tools out
there in shareware/freeware to accomplish what you want to do. Matter of
fact, I bet that almost anything you want to use under *nix is also available
for WindowsNT or MS-DOS.
the only thing in your scenario I'm not sure how to hook into is automatically
running this process when you log out. Anybody have an answer to that one?
While microsoft isnt the greatest company in the world, and linux is a damn
fine project. Please don't claim all sorts of knowledge and point to
shortcomings that don't exist, plainly showing you havent really looked into
the problem.
Russ
DaShizNit
Hate to inform you of this, but Backup isn't exactly capable of a time
specific backup. It also must be run explicitly!
>
>I think that would do what you want. Or maybe use even PKZIP! Or,
>heaven forbid, write a batch file to do it. There's a bundle of tools out
>there in shareware/freeware to accomplish what you want to do. Matter of
>fact, I bet that almost anything you want to use under *nix is also available
>for WindowsNT or MS-DOS.
Me again. This simply isn't true, unfortunately, although the
converse may be true. Any function that you need out of one of the
MS-OS's can be easily duplicated under any UNIX clone. I admit that
the functionality of the other OS's are increasing by leaps & bounds,
but there are still things possible in UNIX system that you simply
cannot do under DOS, Win95, or NT.
On an MS-OS you can't:
1. recompile the system to remove unwanted features or bugs.
2. change security options simply by editing text files.
3. treat every device in your computer as a streamable object for
quick access and broader support.
4. use your computer as a print server without all other operations
slowing to a crawl.
...I could go on, but I think you get the point.
>
>the only thing in your scenario I'm not sure how to hook into is automatically
>running this process when you log out. Anybody have an answer to that one?
Not possible unless you create a RING 0 program that catches windows
as it's telling everyone to shutdown. Not at all possible in DOS.
>
>While microsoft isnt the greatest company in the world, and linux is a damn
>fine project. Please don't claim all sorts of knowledge and point to
>shortcomings that don't exist, plainly showing you havent really looked into
>the problem.
>
>Russ
>
Get a copy of Linux, read a book or two, install it, and call me back
when you're a bit more informed.
Arkain
Russell A. Schultz
whatever tool you plan on using in *nix, unless scheduled with the "at"
command (or run explicitly). Windows NT also has the "at" command which is
functionally identical to *nix "at".
>>
>>fact, I bet that almost anything you want to use under *nix is also available
>>for WindowsNT or MS-DOS.
>
>
>On an MS-OS you can't:
>
>1. recompile the system to remove unwanted features or bugs.
unwanted bugs, or viruses or... Yes, this is a powerful feature, but it can
be abused, and just because it doesnt exist in an OS doesnt mean that OS is
useless. If you were marketing an OS thats main selling point is the amount
of software available and that it is a common platform, would you want your
end users to be recompiling the system and calling you for help when your
product ceases to function? Not me...
>2. change security options simply by editing text files.
it using the common interface that don't screw up your security files when you
make a typo?
>3. treat every device in your computer as a streamable object for
>quick access and broader support.
does MS-DOS _at the dos prompt_. True, the joystick isnt, but is it under
Linux?) This also is a very nifty feature of *nix. And WindowsNT is coming
around to it. Under Win32, every device driver is accessed as a file, there
are a few API wrapper calls sometimes, but at the heart, everything is a file.
>4. use your computer as a print server without all other operations
>slowing to a crawl.
print server. I doubt it slows to a crawl, however, as the one in our LAN is
being used by a co-worker as his desktop machine.
>
>....I could go on, but I think you get the point.
>
Which wasnt relevant to the discussion, nor is it particularly well founded.
>>
>>the only thing in your scenario I'm not sure how to hook into is automatically
>
>>running this process when you log out. Anybody have an answer to that one?
>
>Not possible unless you create a RING 0 program that catches windows
>as it's telling everyone to shutdown. Not at all possible in DOS.
hooks the CTRL-ALT-DELETE for Linux, but thats no different than what you have
to do for windows.
>
>>
>>While microsoft isnt the greatest company in the world, and linux is a damn
>>fine project. Please don't claim all sorts of knowledge and point to
>>shortcomings that don't exist, plainly showing you havent really looked into
>>the problem.
>>
>
>when you're a bit more informed.
post which was: "The _tools_ available for windows/windowsNT are similar to
those on *nix, and neither is particularly deficient as the
shareware/freeware market exists to fill those gaps." it was NOT "Windows NT
has every feature than *nix has to offer and linux is crap and windows is
the panacea and I am its avatar".
They are two different OS's, and both are lacking features the other has. I
enjoy using both systems and can recognize the strengths and weaknesses of
each respective system. Can you?
Russ
Sangria
On Sun, 10 Nov 1996 09:42:41 GMT, idu...@wesayso.com (DaShizNit)
wrote:
>>take a look at "backup /?"
>
>Hate to inform you of this, but Backup isn't exactly capable of a time
>specific backup. It also must be run explicitly!
Sorry, backup itself may not, but backup in conjunction with 'at' will
do a time specific backup. You do not have to run it explicitly--you
don't even have to have it interact with the desktop at all.
>>...I bet that almost anything you want to use under *nix is also available
>>for WindowsNT or MS-DOS.
>
>Me again. This simply isn't true, unfortunately, although the
>converse may be true. Any function that you need out of one of the
>MS-OS's can be easily duplicated under any UNIX clone.
Given that there are approximate 20 or so Unix clones, I would amazed
if you couldn't find a flavor somewhere that couldn't do the same
tasks as an OS from a single vendor.
Now having said that, I can also state that so far I haven't run into
any senerio in which you couldn't perform the same functionality on NT
as you can on a Unix box (assuming you don't bring in hardware
limitation).
>On an MS-OS you can't:
>
>1. recompile the system to remove unwanted features or bugs.
On some variants of Unix, you can't do this either. Nor is this an
"OS feature", more a distribution option.
>2. change security options simply by editing text files.
???
Security settings by changing *text* files? I most certainly hope
NOT! On the other hand, editing security settings through well
defined interfaces is most certainly doable and preferred.
>3. treat every device in your computer as a streamable object for
>quick access and broader support.
Ahhh, the "everything is a file" arguement. Sorry, this isn't exactly
"feature" in my book.
>4. use your computer as a print server without all other operations
>slowing to a crawl.
Ummm, I'm doing this right now....
Infact a printer pool is a very nice thing.
>...I could go on, but I think you get the point.
I think it's time for you to spend some more time using MS-OSes
(specifically the ones with 'N' & 'T' in their names). You might be
amazed what you can and can't do with NT.
>>the only thing in your scenario I'm not sure how to hook into is automatically
>>running this process when you log out. Anybody have an answer to that one?
>
>Not possible unless you create a RING 0 program that catches windows
>as it's telling everyone to shutdown. Not at all possible in DOS.
I don't think the person was talking about DOS and you most certainly
do not have to write a Ring 0 (by which I assume you mean kernel mode)
application. You can devise the application as a system service
(daemons in Unix-speak). Or in the case of WinNT 4.0, write and
extension to the Explorer shell that get's triggered when Explorer
shuts down (say by triggering a named event which then initiates a
waiting service to do your task--it's late so this may not be the best
option...but you get the idea: It's very doable.)
>Get a copy of Linux, read a book or two, install it, and call me back
>when you're a bit more informed.
Get a copy of NT, read a book or two, install it and write me back
when you're a bit more informed.
Arrogant isn't it? :-)
In case you're wondering, I am running Linux (2.0.22 right now) and if
you ask real nicely, I may allow my NT Server to proxy a telnet
session (<SHAMELESS PLUG> using my own proxy server of course
</SHAMELESS PLUG>) into it just to prove it. 8*)
-- Sang.
********************************************************
* Sang K. Choe san...@inlink.com *
* http://sangria.inlink.com/index.html *
* finger: sa...@sangria.inlink.com *
********************************************************
Philippe Le Foll
Russell A. Schultz wrote:
> >>>serious develper seeks is easy to use. Once a person has in depth
> >>>knowledge, and
> >>>experience with both types of systems, the "Easy To Use" system becomes
> >>>an
> >>>obvious preference. For example, I am a system administrator on a
> >>>Windows NT
> >>>machine. I want to copy all files on the entire hard drive with the
> >>>extension .c
> >>>that have been modified in the last 24 hours to \tmp, at the same time I
I am also experienced in both systems, and it is true that:
NT is easier to start, but harder to optimize, if you dont
trust me read the 1300 pages of the "technical resource kit".
Try something like pushing your user environement on a network
disk, from a NT workstation, it can be done but it is far to be
as simple as "CLIC, DRAG & DROP".
I could ask some other operation like modifing the printer spooler
scrip in order to ask at each end of printing job as many pages
as been printed.
And if someone tell me that the registry in simpler than a couple
of clean test file, I would like him to explain me how translate
a registry key as:
/HKEY_USERS/S1521-10023911966-167250553-1788637320-1001/
This nice number is set for a user, it is may be efficient and secure
but no one can say it is simple.
> >>>fun, I would like this to be done every time I log out. I would be
> >>>there for hours doing that with NT if it is at all possible without
> >>>writing
> >>>my own code to do it, but with linux that would take around 10 minutes.
> >>>Of course I could probably buy a piece of sofware for the NT machine
That is true NT is a commercial product and is not obvious that a
comercial company want poeple to developt there own tools each
time they miss something.
It is right that under Linux everething is free, but if you take
Solaris then even with Unix you come back to everything as to be
payed.
This is not a problem for me, even it is true that sometime I dont
understand why people want to pay for commercial product when
a free program doing the same or even beter exist. As example
I will give: NT server/Lan-manager versu Linux/Samba.
The real problem for me is not on functionalities, NT is a young
product and in a couple of years it will probabely be as safe and
performant as Unix.
I personaly ported many program from Unix to NT, it is not a pleasant
job, but until now everything I had to convert as been converted,
it is also true that everething run slowier on NT.
We all like what we know, and very few people know NT & UNIX.
This is probabely why many people love Unix and hate NT and vice versa,
Nevertheless many people want NT because they want NT,
they are ready to spend a huge amount of money for that.
I am leaving from software and each time people want to spend
money for software this look nice to me, it give job to my students,
to out local companies, everybody should be happy with that.
Now comming back on real technical thing, they are a couple of NT
design that are surprising to me:
- In version 3.5, Microsoft was explaining us, that microkernel was
the future, in 4.0 almost everything when back inside kernel space,
and we have now a 7MB micro-kernel ! (I readed Microsoft explainations
on that, neverthless pushing all window management in kernel space
look spudid to me, I thing they had to make it, in order Posix
subsystem to use graphic, but the good design would have been
a real communication mecanisme between sub-system)
- NT is slow, and I am use to say that NT with my Puntium pro-180
goes almost as fast as my P-100 running Linux
(both machines have 32MB).
- NT administration is complex, as soon as you has to leave microsoft
standard, you have to play with RegEdt32 and the is the worse than
any clean text file.
- Multi-task is not performant, try to install a product that make
as big copy between your CD and your disk and start Word.
- Still mono user oriented, the last version comme with a telnetd
that works find for dir and copy, but as the concept of pseudo
terminal does not exist, it is still impossible to edit and compile
a file on a server from a remote machine. As I would like to
execute Word on my server from a veaker client machine, NT is not
ready for providing this as a standard function.
- Filesystem, NTFS is better than FAT, in 4.0 we now have Hard-link,
we still miss symbolic-link. Compare to Linux ext2 it is slow but
it is probabely as fast as AIX filesystem that also provide
complexe functionnalities.
- Network, this is fine obviousely we dont have the NIS services, but
NT server propose something else that is comperable. Further more
version 4.0 provide a nice way for handling user environment.
Nevertheless I still run a Linux box as Internet central acces
in order to use Hardvest for html cache, Metahtlml for fast html
development, and leafnode as news nttpd client/server.
CONCLUSION: NT-4.0 is the best product Microsoft ever done, if you
want to run Word and Exel it is definitively the good product.
BECman
Philippe Le Foll wrote:
: - NT is slow, and I am use to say that NT with my Puntium pro-180
: goes almost as fast as my P-100 running Linux
: (both machines have 32MB).
My pentium 166Mhz runs NT pretty fast, it only has 80MB of RAM,
and a 2GB SCSI Ultra-Wide hard drive.
;-)
it also runs MSDOS 6.22 pretty fast as well
;-)
Graham.
Chris Kaminski
I'll forgive spelling and grammar errors.... (This is a large world we
are living in...)
Philippe Le Foll wrote:
>
> NT is easier to start, but harder to optimize, if you dont
> trust me read the 1300 pages of the "technical resource kit".
NT, for the most part, takes care of itself.
> Try something like pushing your user environement on a network
> disk, from a NT workstation, it can be done but it is far to be
> as simple as "CLIC, DRAG & DROP".
No comment. (No experience)
> I could ask some other operation like modifing the printer spooler
> scrip in order to ask at each end of printing job as many pages
> as been printed.
> And if someone tell me that the registry in simpler than a couple
> of clean test file, I would like him to explain me how translate
> a registry key as:
> /HKEY_USERS/S1521-10023911966-167250553-1788637320-1001/
> This nice number is set for a user, it is may be efficient and secure
> but no one can say it is simple.
For simplicities sake, yes, it should be translated into the current
user names supported on said machine, but we can live without it.
> The real problem for me is not on functionalities, NT is a young
> product and in a couple of years it will probabely be as safe and
> performant as Unix.
In my experience (I have years of experience with both), NT is more
resilient (Especially in it's 4.0 incarnation) than a lot of UNIX' I
work with, and just as speedy. (Pro/ENGINEER benchmarks. Look 'em
up.)
> I personaly ported many program from Unix to NT, it is not a pleasant
> job, but until now everything I had to convert as been converted,
> it is also true that everething run slowier on NT.
This is not always true. On equivalent hardware, our software
package,
(Pro/ENGINEER) runs faster on some Intel hardware than it does on some
SGI hardware.
> We all like what we know, and very few people know NT & UNIX.
> This is probabely why many people love Unix and hate NT and vice versa,
> Nevertheless many people want NT because they want NT,
> they are ready to spend a huge amount of money for that.
Eh, to each his own.
> - In version 3.5, Microsoft was explaining us, that microkernel was
> the future, in 4.0 almost everything when back inside kernel space,
> and we have now a 7MB micro-kernel ! (I readed Microsoft explainations
> on that, neverthless pushing all window management in kernel space
> look spudid to me, I thing they had to make it, in order Posix
> subsystem to use graphic, but the good design would have been
> a real communication mecanisme between sub-system)
NT is still a microkernel operating system. Just because win32k.sys
runs
in kernel space doesn't make it part of the kernel itself. As far as
I know,
it had nothing to do with POSIX, but was more of a performance
booster.
> - NT is slow, and I am use to say that NT with my Puntium pro-180
> goes almost as fast as my P-100 running Linux
> (both machines have 32MB).
And are you running X windows on your Linux box?? If so, I'm sure
you've lost
some performance, possibly enough to put it on par with NT. Also, it
is true
that the microkernel architecture will cause some performance loss,
but it
also makes it easier to build a robust system.
> - NT administration is complex, as soon as you has to leave microsoft
> standard, you have to play with RegEdt32 and the is the worse than
> any clean text file.
Complex??? I can administer anything on my NT machines with half a
dozen tools
Server Manager
User Manager
Control Panel
File Manager / Explorer
DHCP Administrator
DNS Administrator
WINS Administrator
How is this complex???
> - Multi-task is not performant, try to install a product that make
> as big copy between your CD and your disk and start Word.
If you're not using IDE disk drives, you won't take a hit. I can
spawn 5 Pro/ENGINEER sessions (Keep in mind that Proe has a 15 MB
working
set size), 2 word sessions, 3 background copies ( 1 HD-HD, 1 CD-HD, 1
NET - NET)
and still have plenty of processor to surf.
SCSI-3 RAID 5
196 MB RAM
P5-166
Granted, I run out of processor before I run out of memory, but this
test
takes swapping out of the picture.
> - Still mono user oriented, the last version comme with a telnetd
> that works find for dir and copy, but as the concept of pseudo
> terminal does not exist, it is still impossible to edit and compile
> a file on a server from a remote machine. As I would like to
> execute Word on my server from a veaker client machine, NT is not
> ready for providing this as a standard function.
Not true at all. I consistently use edit.exe and XVI with the 4.0
telnetd. Sure, I can't run notepad from the machine down the hall,
but who cares. And compilation??? I've done a complete build of
Pro/ENGINEER in one of those telnet sessions (400 MB of source code)
Also, NT can run word to a weaker client machine. It's a separate
technology called WinFrame, available from a number of vendors,
Citrix
Tektronix
Ntrigue
..etc..
> - Filesystem, NTFS is better than FAT, in 4.0 we now have Hard-link,
> we still miss symbolic-link. Compare to Linux ext2 it is slow but
> it is probabely as fast as AIX filesystem that also provide
> complexe functionnalities.
I cannot argue for or against performance, as I haven't run any
benchmarks, but you cannot get the security benefits of NTFS from
any Linux filesystem.
Lack of links proves to be a problem ONLY if you are coming from UNIX
to NT. If you do things the NT way instead of trying to do them the
UNIX way, you don't have a need for sym-links. Just try thinking
differently.
> - Network, this is fine obviousely we dont have the NIS services, but
> NT server propose something else that is comperable. Further more
> version 4.0 provide a nice way for handling user environment.
> Nevertheless I still run a Linux box as Internet central acces
> in order to use Hardvest for html cache, Metahtlml for fast html
> development, and leafnode as news nttpd client/server.
NIS is well-known for being one of the biggest network security hacks
available. Why run this, when you have options like DHCP, WINS and
dynamic DNS available to you?
Sure, you don't get the integration to the heterogenous networks for
single network logon, but microsoft doesn't care about UNIX. NIS is
essentially a security problem. It requires you to have password
files
locally.
You also left out the fact makes a great internet server platform
Microsoft IIS
Microsoft WindowsNT (Workstation/Server)
EMWAC IMS
NNTPD
Microsoft DNS
Content development can be done anywhere you have a text editor.
> CONCLUSION: NT-4.0 is the best product Microsoft ever done, if you
> want to run Word and Exel it is definitively the good product.
If you want to run high-end CAD software or do high-end simulations or
develop robust server applications or store many Gigabytes of
transation
data, NT is definitely a good product.
In your comparison, you left out security, ease of use (I believe you
stated this), ISV support, Tech Support, Hardware Support, etc.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Chris Kaminski - Software Engineer Email: kami...@ptc.com
Phone: (617)398-5008 FAX: (617)398-5633
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Parametric Technology Corporation Disclaimer: PTC will disavow all
128 Technology Drive knowledge of this email, and will
Waltham, MA 02154 not claim responsibility for it.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
StriderCentaur
BECman wrote:
>
> Philippe Le Foll wrote:
>
> : - NT is slow, and I am use to say that NT with my Puntium pro-180
> : goes almost as fast as my P-100 running Linux
> : (both machines have 32MB).
>
> and a 2GB SCSI Ultra-Wide hard drive.
>
> ;-)
>
> it also runs MSDOS 6.22 pretty fast as well
>
> ;-)
>
> Graham.
Apology for cross post:
Sorry about this but being a NT/Linux guy I would like to say that both
are great in there enviroments. Linux crushes NT in virtualy all
enterprise and inter/intranetworking enviroments. Its fast to
configure, reliable and contrary to popular beleife extreamly well
supported. OTW, NTS can't be beet for that small to medium server
enviroment for file and print sharing. For the record I would use
niether in a real database or large server enviroment. For that I would
recomend HP or SUN. Maybe the Alphas are fast but NT needs more than
speed to play in those enviroments. BTW, linux also runs on Alpha so
its stll the fastest of the two. As a System Admin on both platforms I
can sy Im glad we use both in the proper enviroment.
Coding under Unix/NT:
Ive done/do both. When you concider that most code on a network needs
to run unatended and in the background NT is fairly useless. Yes for
GUI it reigns supreme but for system level drivers etc., it simply
sucks. A good example is the winsock. Even a novice should be able to
hammer out a functional two way chat program using simple sockets. In
unix this is well under 100 lines of code. That includes server and
client. But try that it windows. Dont even think about MFC you'll go
over 100 lines just setting up a window. My point is there are times
when you dont need a gui and the message system of NT is far to
bothersom. Most high level admins in large networks have probably had
to write alot of socket level utilities and under NT it is too time
consuming.
In short ( too late ) both systems have their place so why not just use
them both? And those Linux bashers out there should realy learnmore
than the basics of unix I think you will be suprised at how much you can
do and how easy you can do it. I know I was.
Ron Burton
Christian Smith
Chris Kaminski wrote:
> > - Multi-task is not performant, try to install a product that make
> > as big copy between your CD and your disk and start Word.
>
> If you're not using IDE disk drives, you won't take a hit. I can
> spawn 5 Pro/ENGINEER sessions (Keep in mind that Proe has a 15 MB
> working
> set size), 2 word sessions, 3 background copies ( 1 HD-HD, 1 CD-HD, 1
> NET - NET)
> and still have plenty of processor to surf.
>
> SCSI-3 RAID 5
> 196 MB RAM
> P5-166
How many people have 196 MB Ram to play with on one machine (outside
net admin.)
And bare in mind that those 5 sessions of Pro/ENGINEER will all share
the same code.
And never mind sessions, how many different USERS do you think Linux could
support with that amount of memory.
> > - Still mono user oriented, the last version comme with a telnetd
> > that works find for dir and copy, but as the concept of pseudo
> > terminal does not exist, it is still impossible to edit and compile
> > a file on a server from a remote machine. As I would like to
> > execute Word on my server from a veaker client machine, NT is not
> > ready for providing this as a standard function.
>
> Not true at all. I consistently use edit.exe and XVI with the 4.0
> telnetd. Sure, I can't run notepad from the machine down the hall,
> but who cares. And compilation??? I've done a complete build of
> Pro/ENGINEER in one of those telnet sessions (400 MB of source code)
>
> Also, NT can run word to a weaker client machine. It's a separate
> technology called WinFrame, available from a number of vendors,
> Citrix
> Tektronix
> Ntrigue
> ..etc..
> And how much do they cost (not free, I bet)
And Linux can run Wordperfect to an otherwise dumb X Terminal.
> > - Filesystem, NTFS is better than FAT, in 4.0 we now have Hard-link,
> > we still miss symbolic-link. Compare to Linux ext2 it is slow but
> > it is probabely as fast as AIX filesystem that also provide
> > complexe functionnalities.
>
> I cannot argue for or against performance, as I haven't run any
> benchmarks, but you cannot get the security benefits of NTFS from
> any Linux filesystem.
>
> Lack of links proves to be a problem ONLY if you are coming from UNIX
> to NT. If you do things the NT way instead of trying to do them the
> UNIX way, you don't have a need for sym-links. Just try thinking
> differently.Consider the scenario
Linux v2.0.21 source -> /usr/src/linux.2.0.21
Linux v2.0.26 source -> /usr/src/linux.2.0.26
Generic Linux source -> /usr/src/linux
So, do you COPY the correct source tree to /usr/src/linux for compilation.
I think not.
>
> Sure, you don't get the integration to the heterogenous networks for
> single network logon, but microsoft doesn't care about UNIX. NIS is
> essentially a security problem. It requires you to have password
> files
> locally.
>
> You also left out the fact makes a great internet server platform
> Microsoft IIS
> Microsoft WindowsNT (Workstation/Server) ^
|
You don't plan on being a busy site then?
Christian Smith
Sangria wrote:
>
> On Sun, 10 Nov 1996 09:42:41 GMT, idu...@wesayso.com (DaShizNit)
> wrote:
> >3. treat every device in your computer as a streamable object for
> >quick access and broader support.
>
> Ahhh, the "everything is a file" arguement. Sorry, this isn't exactly
> "feature" in my book.
different modules to support testing with data files, data from a COM port,
data from the network. All the interfaces are different and have various
quirks and caveats.
The "everything is a file" approach allows a simple and effective
object oriented approach, in that you open a stream object, and
read or write to it in a way that is not dependant on the data
source or method of transport.
Philippe Le Foll
Christian Smith wrote:
>
> Chris Kaminski wrote:
> > > - Multi-task is not performant, try to install a product that make
> > > as big copy between your CD and your disk and start Word.
> >
> > If you're not using IDE disk drives, you won't take a hit. I can
> > spawn 5 Pro/ENGINEER sessions (Keep in mind that Proe has a 15 MB
> > working
> > set size), 2 word sessions, 3 background copies ( 1 HD-HD, 1 CD-HD, 1
> > NET - NET)
> > and still have plenty of processor to surf.
> >
> > SCSI-3 RAID 5
> > 196 MB RAM
> > P5-166
>
> How many people have 196 MB Ram to play with on one machine (outside
> net admin.)
>
> And bare in mind that those 5 sessions of Pro/ENGINEER will all share
> the same code.
>
> And never mind sessions, how many different USERS do you think Linux could
> support with that amount of memory.
>
I have a P90 with 64MB of ram with an Adaptec wide SCSI. I use it
with 15 to 20 student at a time. They run emac, vi, gcc and metahtml
from AIX Power-PC used as X-terminal, and nobody complain, In fact
Linux almost never swap !
At home with 32MB of Ram I can run compiler + debuger + netscape
and I never swap even in a window environment, and usualy I have at
least 8 to 10 open windows.
The same configuration with NT start swaping as soon as you start the C
compiler.
NT should stop eating Hamburger and move to a more dietetic food
Chris Kaminski
Philippe Le Foll wrote:
>
> Christian Smith wrote:
> >
> > Chris Kaminski wrote:
> > > > as big copy between your CD and your disk and start Word.
> > >
> > > If you're not using IDE disk drives, you won't take a hit. I can
> > > spawn 5 Pro/ENGINEER sessions (Keep in mind that Proe has a 15 MB
> > > working
> > > set size), 2 word sessions, 3 background copies ( 1 HD-HD, 1 CD-HD, 1
> > > NET - NET)
> > > and still have plenty of processor to surf.
> > >
> > > SCSI-3 RAID 5
> > > 196 MB RAM
> > > P5-166
> >
> > How many people have 196 MB Ram to play with on one machine (outside
> > net admin.)
> >
> > And bare in mind that those 5 sessions of Pro/ENGINEER will all share
> > the same code.
Yes, but how many applications do you know of that start with a 5 MB
Heap?
> > And never mind sessions, how many different USERS do you think Linux could
> > support with that amount of memory.
> I have a P90 with 64MB of ram with an Adaptec wide SCSI. I use it
> with 15 to 20 student at a time. They run emac, vi, gcc and metahtml
> from AIX Power-PC used as X-terminal, and nobody complain, In fact
> Linux almost never swap !
>
> At home with 32MB of Ram I can run compiler + debuger + netscape
> and I never swap even in a window environment, and usualy I have at
> least 8 to 10 open windows.
Significant. But your performance still breaks down around the CPU.
Monolithic kernels like Linux will always out-perform micro-kernel
OSes
in raw CPU performance.
I don't try to claim that NT is the fastest OS in the world. QNX
beats
it hands-down :) I am fighting the claim that NT is a POOR performer.
> The same configuration with NT start swaping as soon as you start the C
> compiler.
I wish this was a good apples to apples comparison, but gcc is known
for
it's compactness ( I've done the math, I've run NT + MSVC 4.0 and
Linux +
GCC 2.x ) GCC is just a smaller application than MSVC++ 4.0. Never
mind
the fact you didn't state what debugger you use, although my guess
would
be gdb and maybe the X wrapper for it??? Do you usually compile
while
debugging??
> NT should stop eating Hamburger and move to a more dietetic food
NT's biggest problem is the inability to remove the Window
Environment.
I'd like to see some functionality like with OS/2, where you could
replace
Workplace Shell with a text-based work environment. Much better.
Develop
a curses like interface for NT, and replace the Windowing system. :)
Nice 3rd Year college project, don't you think?
--
Morris Maynard
>NT's biggest problem is the inability to remove the Window
>Environment. I'd like to see some functionality like with OS/2, where >you could replace Workplace Shell with a text-based work environment. >Much better. Develop a curses like interface for NT, and replace the >Windowing system. :) Nice 3rd Year college project, don't you think?
If this was said in jest, you _can_ of course run NT text only. If in
earnest, it is yet another example of why I dearly wish this stupid
thread would go away.
Kevin Burton
> I wish this was a good apples to apples comparison, but gcc is known
> for
> it's compactness ( I've done the math, I've run NT + MSVC 4.0 and
> Linux +
> GCC 2.x ) GCC is just a smaller application than MSVC++ 4.0. Never
> mind
> the fact you didn't state what debugger you use, although my guess
> would
> be gdb and maybe the X wrapper for it??? Do you usually compile
> while
> debugging??
>
>
Illogical! gcc 2.7.2 is small when compared to VC 4.2 because VC 4.2
has a ton more features. This is a fact and not an opinion. GCC has no
GUI libraries like MFC that 4.2 has and 4.2 is a graphical application.
Kevin
--LINUX- The choice of a GNU generation!--
Kevin Burton
Network Support
General Physics Corporation
http://www.gl.umbc.edu/~kburto1/kburto1.html
"In a weak sense, it [windows NT] is a
form of Unix." --Bill Gates, 1996
"It is error alone that needs
support of the government."
--Thomas Jefferson