NT expert wanted (job opening) $$$$$$
R.C.
TremorRob <mcm...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>This is in regards to your job offer. The reason your
>not getting good canidates is because the salary of $43,000.00
>is way to low for a strong NT canidate. I am very experienced
>at NT and pc networking, however, the market place is offering
>between 50k and 100k for bonafide NT experts.
>just a thought...
>--
>*****************************************
>*Rob McMahan, Jr. (TremorRob)
>*mcm...@ix.netcom.com
>*http://www.pic.net/~rmcmahan
>*"small oceans still get big..big waves"
>*****************************************
I have to agree. I own a consulting firm in Dallas and I am selling
NT consultants at 225/hour and they are busy 8 hours a day. Those
guys take home 70 to 80 / hour of it. So if you want a full time guy
you better offer at least 80k and a car and benefits or you will just
get a guy that has read a magazine. New Technology is the place to
make money.
Ron.....
Peter Evans
In article <4oge4n$1...@news2.nkn.net>, R.C. <e...@nkn.net> wrote:
>TremorRob <mcm...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>This is in regards to your job offer. The reason your
>>not getting good canidates is because the salary of $43,000.00
>>is way to low for a strong NT canidate. I am very experienced
>>at NT and pc networking, however, the market place is offering
>>between 50k and 100k for bonafide NT experts.
>>just a thought...
>I have to agree. I own a consulting firm in Dallas and I am selling
>NT consultants at 225/hour and they are busy 8 hours a day. Those
>guys take home 70 to 80 / hour of it. So if you want a full time guy
>you better offer at least 80k and a car and benefits or you will just
>get a guy that has read a magazine. New Technology is the place to
>make money.
Arg, that makes me so *depressed*.
<cathartic rant>
I'm not particularly an NT hero, it's pretty hard to learn
when you can't read the error messages and I can count the
amount of training I have had on thumbs on my left foot. I can
configure them, run them a bit but I have no idea what I am
doing as they all speak japanese.
My current job is oh, 50 unix boxen and 10 NT pcs, with another
5 or so on the way. I'm the sole admin. v.v;
Then you go and mention all these HUGE salaries! I could
cry! The *lowest* figure there is more than I get! And I live
in Tokyo!
</cathartic rant>
--
Magical Hop Step - Izady Ab Mehinamm Eto Cafe Nan!!
^ o \\ Founding Member - Urara-Chan Fan Club. Kakazu Yumi-Chan no DaiFan!
U \Beh! \\ "Otoko ha Tsuyoku, Onna ha Yasashiku ..." (yappa muri ka na)
Brian Raynor
pe...@gol1.gol.com (Peter Evans) wrote:
>
> Arg, that makes me so *depressed*.
>
> <cathartic rant>
>
> I'm not particularly an NT hero, it's pretty hard to learn
> when you can't read the error messages and I can count the
> amount of training I have had on thumbs on my left foot. I can
> configure them, run them a bit but I have no idea what I am
> doing as they all speak japanese.
>
> My current job is oh, 50 unix boxen and 10 NT pcs, with another
> 5 or so on the way. I'm the sole admin. v.v;
>
> Then you go and mention all these HUGE salaries! I could
> cry! The *lowest* figure there is more than I get! And I live
> in Tokyo!
>
> </cathartic rant>
But keep in mind though, that I believe he was looking for an NT
programming job. Programming jobs typically command more salary than
admin jobs...
Rob Rothberg
thats not really true either. in the past few companies ive worked
for they are about the same. programmers always hate that :')....
On Sun, 02 Jun 1996 14:15:58 GMT, ray...@conterra.com (Brian Raynor)
wrote:
---
Rob Rothberg
NEC MIPS NT Engineering
roth...@nema.com
---
William Englehart
Peter Evans wrote:
>
> In article <4oge4n$1...@news2.nkn.net>, R.C. <e...@nkn.net> wrote:
> >TremorRob <mcm...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> >>This is in regards to your job offer. The reason your
> >>not getting good canidates is because the salary of $43,000.00
> >>is way to low for a strong NT canidate. I am very experienced
> >>at NT and pc networking, however, the market place is offering
> >>between 50k and 100k for bonafide NT experts.
>
> >>just a thought...
>
> >I have to agree. I own a consulting firm in Dallas and I am selling
> >NT consultants at 225/hour and they are busy 8 hours a day. Those
> >guys take home 70 to 80 / hour of it. So if you want a full time guy
> >you better offer at least 80k and a car and benefits or you will just
> >get a guy that has read a magazine. New Technology is the place to
> >make money.
>
>
> <cathartic rant>
>
> I'm not particularly an NT hero, it's pretty hard to learn
> when you can't read the error messages and I can count the
> amount of training I have had on thumbs on my left foot. I can
> configure them, run them a bit but I have no idea what I am
> doing as they all speak japanese.
>
> My current job is oh, 50 unix boxen and 10 NT pcs, with another
> 5 or so on the way. I'm the sole admin. v.v;
>
> Then you go and mention all these HUGE salaries! I could
> cry! The *lowest* figure there is more than I get! And I live
> in Tokyo!
>
> </cathartic rant>
>
> Magical Hop Step - Izady Ab Mehinamm Eto Cafe Nan!!
>
> ^ o \\ Founding Member - Urara-Chan Fan Club. Kakazu Yumi-Chan no DaiFan!
> U \Beh! \\ "Otoko ha Tsuyoku, Onna ha Yasashiku ..." (yappa muri ka na)
I can believe the huge salaries! However, I have yet to see,
hear-of, or meet anyone I consider an NT EXPERT. Not even
close, and definitely no cigar!
wde
ps Its just tooooo much technology for one simple mind!
Jan Lastort
e...@nkn.net (R.C.) writes:
>I have to agree. I own a consulting firm in Dallas and I am selling
>NT consultants at 225/hour and they are busy 8 hours a day. Those
>guys take home 70 to 80 / hour of it. So if you want a full time guy
>you better offer at least 80k and a car and benefits or you will just
>get a guy that has read a magazine. New Technology is the place to
>make money.
You bill your consultants at $225 an hour and pay them just $70-80? That
means you're paying them between 31% and 35.5% of your billable rate. I
know that firms have to make money (I'm a consultant through Aerotek
myself), but when the firm is making that much of a return, that firm is
giving the consultants a royal screwing!
I know my billable rate, and I know that I'm getting about 75% of it, with
Aerotek taking the other 25%. I'd say that's fair. If you're really
billing at $225/hour (which sounds like an exaggeration, even for
low-level HAL programmers), you should be paying the consultants a minimum
of $160/hour.
I'm still trying to figure out how you can bill such a high rate.
$225/hour is $468,000.00/year for a programmer wowking 40 hours a week for
52 weeks. Every consultant I EVER met works at least a couple hours of
overtime every week. Let's through that in. Let's say that each consultant
works 45 hours each week. That's a billable rate of $526,500.00 yearly.
There's no company in the world stupid enough to pay half a million bucks
a year to a consulting company for a programmer, even if the programmer
wrote NT himself!
Mike Lastort
Windows NT software engineer
Tim.Jowers
In article <janlast.834008930@access2> jan...@access2.digex.net (Jan Lastort) writes:
>e...@nkn.net (R.C.) writes:
>
>>I have to agree. I own a consulting firm in Dallas and I am selling
>>NT consultants at 225/hour and they are busy 8 hours a day. Those
>>guys take home 70 to 80 / hour of it. So if you want a full time guy
>>you better offer at least 80k and a car and benefits or you will just
>>get a guy that has read a magazine. New Technology is the place to
>>make money.
>
>You bill your consultants at $225 an hour and pay them just $70-80? That
>means you're paying them between 31% and 35.5% of your billable rate. I
>know that firms have to make money (I'm a consultant through Aerotek
>myself), but when the firm is making that much of a return, that firm is
>giving the consultants a royal screwing!
>
>I know my billable rate, and I know that I'm getting about 75% of it, with
>Aerotek taking the other 25%. I'd say that's fair. If you're really
>billing at $225/hour (which sounds like an exaggeration, even for
>low-level HAL programmers), you should be paying the consultants a minimum
>of $160/hour.
I wouldn't care myself. $80 per hour is better than I make now and I'm
a fairly swift NT programmer. Besides I've dabbled in finding contracts and
it takes a lot of work and infrastructure. Now if he were billing $60 and
paying his workers 30k per year like some firms do; then I think you could
complain. (Cause anyone who works for $30k must be a non-US citizen or have
0 experience.)
>
>I'm still trying to figure out how you can bill such a high rate.
Maybe these consultants don't work F.T. or for 3mo plus contracts.
Maybe they're not programmers: experts [with Ph.D.s] go for $300/hour.
>$225/hour is $468,000.00/year for a programmer wowking 40 hours a week for
>52 weeks. Every consultant I EVER met works at least a couple hours of
>overtime every week. Let's through that in. Let's say that each consultant
>works 45 hours each week. That's a billable rate of $526,500.00 yearly.
>There's no company in the world stupid enough to pay half a million bucks
>a year to a consulting company for a programmer, even if the programmer
>wrote NT himself!
>
>Mike Lastort
>Windows NT software engineer
>
>
P.S. Ever calculate what the Netscape founders made per hour in their venture?
Or what Gates per hour earnings have been over the last 10 years?
--
Tim Jowers AT&T GIS Windows NT Development GSI Ph./Fax:1-803-776-1483
"It always was and always will be the power to understand and
the ability to act that turns information into profits."
- Gerald M. Loeb, "The Battle for Investment Survival"
bata...@ualr.edu
William Englehart <w...@hobbyworld.com> wrote:
>Peter Evans wrote:
>>
>> In article <4oge4n$1...@news2.nkn.net>, R.C. <e...@nkn.net> wrote:
>> >TremorRob <mcm...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>
>> >>This is in regards to your job offer. The reason your
>> >>not getting good canidates is because the salary of $43,000.00
>> >>is way to low for a strong NT canidate. I am very experienced
>> >>at NT and pc networking, however, the market place is offering
>> >>between 50k and 100k for bonafide NT experts.
>>
>> >>just a thought...
>>
>> >NT consultants at 225/hour and they are busy 8 hours a day. Those
>> >guys take home 70 to 80 / hour of it. So if you want a full time guy
>> >you better offer at least 80k and a car and benefits or you will just
>> >get a guy that has read a magazine. New Technology is the place to
>> >make money.
>>
>>
>> <cathartic rant>
>>
>> I'm not particularly an NT hero, it's pretty hard to learn
>> when you can't read the error messages and I can count the
>> amount of training I have had on thumbs on my left foot. I can
>> configure them, run them a bit but I have no idea what I am
>> doing as they all speak japanese.
>>
>> My current job is oh, 50 unix boxen and 10 NT pcs, with another
>> 5 or so on the way. I'm the sole admin. v.v;
>>
>> Then you go and mention all these HUGE salaries! I could
>> cry! The *lowest* figure there is more than I get! And I live
>> in Tokyo!
>>
>> </cathartic rant>
>>
>> --
>> Magical Hop Step - Izady Ab Mehinamm Eto Cafe Nan!!
>>
>> ^ o \\ Founding Member - Urara-Chan Fan Club. Kakazu Yumi-Chan no DaiFan!
>> U \Beh! \\ "Otoko ha Tsuyoku, Onna ha Yasashiku ..." (yappa muri ka na)
>
>
>I can believe the huge salaries! However, I have yet to see,
>hear-of, or meet anyone I consider an NT EXPERT. Not even
>close, and definitely no cigar!
>
>wde
>
>ps Its just tooooo much technology for one simple mind!
>
No NT experts is an understatement! Our site made contact with six
consultants from various parts of the country and only one of them came
close to having a clue. Most NT hired guns know exactly the content
provided in the NT certification classes and nothing more.
Large fees imply that solution providers / consultants have "seen it all"
and are worth their weight in gold. Beware of smoke and mirrors: 99% of
all NT consultants.
Microsoft trys to offer similar course offerings as their competitors:
Novell. Unfortunately Novell never understood that the training emphasis
should be placed on planning and managing the client environment.
Doesn't it seem strange that Microsoft Certification (NT Server &
Workstation) doesn't even mention client applications?
terry william ogletree
> >There's no company in the world stupid enough to pay half a million bucks
> >a year to a consulting company for a programmer, even if the programmer
> >wrote NT himself!
> >
> >Mike Lastort
> >Windows NT software engineer
> >
> >
>
> P.S. Ever calculate what the Netscape founders made per hour in their venture?
> Or what Gates per hour earnings have been over the last 10 years?
>
> --
> Tim Jowers AT&T GIS Windows NT Development GSI Ph./Fax:1-803-776-1483
> "It always was and always will be the power to understand and
> the ability to act that turns information into profits."
> - Gerald M. Loeb, "The Battle for Investment Survival"
I think you are wrong. Digital Equip charges up to $250 an hour for
non-contract hardware/software support. I worked for digital for a
short period of time and they wanted $75 while paying me $40.
You have to judge it based on the qualifications of the consultant
and the needs of the employer. Sometimes a half mil isn't that much
if it makes your company ten times that much in increased sales,
productivity, etc.
I've worked for as low as $20 /hr, high as (well, we won't go into
that right now).
It's the old saying ... let the buyer beware ... but with NT right
now it's a sellers market.
t.w.ogletree
http://www.twoinc.com ! NT and VMS links and more.
t...@twoinc.com
two...@nando.net
Edmond
bata...@ualr.edu wrote:
>
> **********
> No NT experts is an understatement! Our site made contact with six
> consultants from various parts of the country and only one of them came
> close to having a clue. Most NT hired guns know exactly the content
> provided in the NT certification classes and nothing more.
>
> Large fees imply that solution providers / consultants have "seen it all"
> and are worth their weight in gold. Beware of smoke and mirrors: 99% of
> all NT consultants.
>
> Microsoft trys to offer similar course offerings as their competitors:
> Novell. Unfortunately Novell never understood that the training emphasis
> should be placed on planning and managing the client environment.
>
> Doesn't it seem strange that Microsoft Certification (NT Server &
> Workstation) doesn't even mention client applications?
What is an NT expert supposed to know anyway? What is one's training? Is it
really NT specific or does one have to have a wide range of knowledge, such as
those who typically have their roots in UNIX? I'm just curious here as to how
one defines an expert.
--
Edmond Underwood
email: unde...@Colorado.Edu
Bench32 for Windows NT and Windows 95
http://www.rmii.com/~underwoe/bench32.html
fi...@gate.net
Obviously spoken by someone who has no certification....Microsoft
certification requires at least one client application (win95, 3.1 or
3.11) and NT workstation is a CLIENT itself....in addition it requires
2 electives from the Backoffice suite....this provides a wide range of
experience, not just knowing one product well....it requires you to
know several products well, and how they fit into the Big Picture.....
But as far as 'experts' go, that is usually a title that someone gives
themself.....just be cautious and make sure they have real world
experience...there is no substitute for real world knowledge...
Edmond <unde...@Colorado.Edu> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Doesn't it seem strange that Microsoft Certification (NT Server &
>>>> Workstation) doesn't even mention client applications?
>>>What is an NT expert supposed to know anyway? What is one's training? Is it
>>>really NT specific or does one have to have a wide range of knowledge, such as
>>>those who typically have their roots in UNIX? I'm just curious here as to how
>>>one defines an expert.
>>>--
>>>Edmond Underwood
>>>email: unde...@Colorado.Edu
>>>Bench32 for Windows NT and Windows 95
>>>http://www.rmii.com/~underwoe/bench32.html
/fish
MCT NT, 95, SQL 6.0, SMS
CNA 3.x
rhig...@interramp.com
In article <31B8AA...@Colorado.Edu>, Edmond <unde...@Colorado.Edu> writes:
<<Much deleted>>
> I'm just curious here as to how one defines an expert.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
As one of my college professors explained: "For every
expert there is an equal and opposite expert." (As applicable
in expert witnesses in court or PHD's.)
Expert - what becomes of the drip after it leaves the faucit.
:)
Rod - KB3MK
Steven J. Vore
> > I'm just curious here as to how one defines an expert.
an expert is someone from at least 100miles away.
(btw, I don't live anywhere near you, wherever you are ;-)
--
Steven Vo...@alf.dec.com, MCSE Smile - Mickey's Watching! kf4fbk
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
try http://altavista.digital.com/ Alta Vista: The Largest Web Index!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thomas Lee
In article <821...@NEWS.SAIC.COM>, rhig...@interramp.com writes
>As one of my college professors explained: "For every
>expert there is an equal and opposite expert." (As applicable
>in expert witnesses in court or PHD's.)
>
>Expert - what becomes of the drip after it leaves the faucit.
This is one technical definition. Another is:-
x is an unknow quanity, spert is a drip under pressure.
Mind you, the marketing definition is rather better (particularly as I'm
writing this from TechEd Europe!), namely:-
An expert is the guy from out of town, who knows jackshit about nothing,
but has the slides...
Hope this helps,
Thomas
--
Thomas Lee (t...@psp.co.uk)
Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer and Certified Trainer
PS Partnership - A Microsoft Solution Provider
Ph: +44 1628 850 077 Fax: +44 1628 850 143
William L. Whipple
> jan...@access2.digex.net (Jan Lastort) wrote in article
<janlast.834008930@access2>...
> e...@nkn.net (R.C.) writes:
>
> >I have to agree. I own a consulting firm in Dallas and I am selling
> >NT consultants at 225/hour and they are busy 8 hours a day. Those
> >guys take home 70 to 80 / hour of it. So if you want a full time guy
> >you better offer at least 80k and a car and benefits or you will just
> >get a guy that has read a magazine. New Technology is the place to
> >make money.
>
> means you're paying them between 31% and 35.5% of your billable rate. I
> know that firms have to make money (I'm a consultant through Aerotek
> myself), but when the firm is making that much of a return, that firm is
> giving the consultants a royal screwing!
This depends on what the firm is providing to the employee:
Benefits: Medical, Dental, Optical, Vacation, Sick Leave, Comp Time,
Hardware, Software, Reference Support, Support Staff, ...
Training: Special schools, seminars, certification, ...
Marketing: Who lines up the work? Who gets the signature on the
Contract? Who Writes the Specs? Who Collects the Money? ...
Security: Do they get paid when work is slow? Or laid off? Or
RIFfed? ...
>
> I know my billable rate, and I know that I'm getting about 75% of it,
with
> Aerotek taking the other 25%. I'd say that's fair. If you're really
Any average employee easily costs a company Twice his Salary figure when
you add in Employer side taxes, unemployment payments, office space
overhead, support personnel, benefits, and cost of management. Technical
personnel usually cost more than this, if they are worth keeping around
and the company does what is necessary to keep them as valuable as they
were when they started work.
Wake up and smell the coffee... 75% / 25% ?? Either someone is lying to
you or using you up! And they've sold you so well that you think you are
well off! How many hours of training does your company send you to each
quarter? Do you buy your own journals and magazines? Do you buy your own
MSDN subscription? Do you pay for your own modem line at home? Did you
buy your own system for home, that gets used to call work in emergencies?
How much software on your system at work did you buy because of "personal
preference"? Are you paying for your own Internet connection? How long
does it take to get software updates? What kind of system do they have
you using?
> billing at $225/hour (which sounds like an exaggeration, even for
> low-level HAL programmers), you should be paying the consultants a
minimum
> of $160/hour.
$255 is high, but not unheard of. This is America, it's what the market
will bear. And if you don't like it, you are free to hire someone else,
or move to Cuba. I've been billed out at $200 an hour and never got more
than $80 of that. But I got 8 hours of training for every 40 I worked,
Medical (for me and all my family), Dental and Optical (no deductible), 6
weeks per year of personal time (sick or vacation - they don't ask), two
hours of comp-time for every hour of overtime I worked, MSDN, any 4
journals of my choice, any 2 magazines of my choice, up to $4000 of
personal workstation (updated to state-of-the-art every 3 months), a good
(year old) system for home use, a telephone line (ISDN right now!), 64k
baud channel to the Internet 24 hours a day / 7 days a week, a $1000 a
month budget for software (of my choice). Plus they pay 100% of any
college courses I take, plus a bonus for an A in a subject related to my
job.
>
> I'm still trying to figure out how you can bill such a high rate.
> $225/hour is $468,000.00/year for a programmer wowking 40 hours a week
for
> 52 weeks. Every consultant I EVER met works at least a couple hours of
> overtime every week. Let's through that in. Let's say that each
consultant
> works 45 hours each week. That's a billable rate of $526,500.00 yearly.
> There's no company in the world stupid enough to pay half a million
bucks
> a year to a consulting company for a programmer, even if the programmer
> wrote NT himself!
>
The last contract I worked I put in a solid 80 hours over two weeks. The
manager I worked for was thrilled. He told me the work I did for him
saved him at least a month and a half for his six man department. They'd
been stopped dead for two weeks already when I got called in. 6 guys at
$80k each for a month and a half is about $60,000 (not including another
$60,000 in G&A and Overhead!). If they got billed 80 hours at $200 per
hour it'd cost $16,000, at the least a $44,000 savings. Not to mention
the contract they would have lost, and the future business from that
client, etc.
Sounds fair to me!
And getting his guys trained to do what I did for them is a waste. They
will probably never have another use for that particular expertice, now
that the application is up and running. And if they do, next year,
they'll probably get me, again, becuase I'll be up to date, not a year out
of touch.
It all depends on what you do, and how few other people know how. Also,
on how close to the cutting edge your Firm can keep you, and how badly
that knowledge is needed.