Mac Market Share Facts
Sgt. Friday
fiscal 2007 second quarter ended March 31, 2007
Apple shipped 1,517,000 Macintosh® computers
http://www.gartner.com/it/page.jsp?id=503816
STAMFORD, Conn., April 18, 2007 — Worldwide PC shipments totaled 62.7
million units in the first quarter of 2007
1,517,000/62,700,000 = 0.0241
Mac worldwide market share Q1'07 = 2.41%
http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2007/07/25results.html
2007 third quarter ended June 30, 2007
Apple shipped 1,764,000 Macintosh® computers
http://www.gartner.com/it/page.jsp?id=509905
STAMFORD, Conn., July 18, 2007 — Worldwide PC shipments totaled 61.1
million units in the second quarter of 2007
1,764,000/61,100,000 = 0.0288
Mac worldwide market share Q2'07 = 2.88%
http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2007/10/22results.html
fiscal 2007 fourth quarter ended September 29, 2007
Apple shipped 2,164,000 Macintosh® computers
http://www.gartner.com/it/page.jsp?id=532712
STAMFORD, Conn., October 17, 2007 — Worldwide PC shipments totaled
68.5 million units in the third quarter of 2007
2,164,000/68,500,000 = 0.0315
Mac worldwide market share Q3'07 = 3.15%
http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2008/01/22results.html
fiscal 2008 first quarter ended December 29, 2007
Apple shipped 2,319,000 Macintosh® computers
http://www.gartner.com/it/page.jsp?id=584210
STAMFORD, Conn., January 16, 2008 — Worldwide PC shipments totaled
271.2 million units in 2007, a 13.4 percent increase from 2006,
according to preliminary results by Gartner, Inc. The industry ended
the year with fourth quarter PC shipments of 75.9 million units
2,319,000/75,900,000 = 0.0305
Mac worldwide market share Q4'07 = 3.05%
http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2008/04/23results.html
fiscal 2008 second quarter ended March 29, 2008
Q2'08 Apple shipped 2,289,000 Macintosh® computers
http://www.gartner.com/it/page.jsp?id=648619
STAMFORD, Conn., April 16, 2008 — Worldwide PC shipments totaled 71.1
million units in the first quarter of 2008
2,289,000/71,100,000 = 0.0321
Mac worldwide market share Q1'08 = 3.21%
Summary:
Mac worldwide market share Q1'07 = 2.41%
Mac worldwide market share Q2'07 = 2.88%
Mac worldwide market share Q3'07 = 3.15%
Mac worldwide market share Q4'07 = 3.05%
Mac worldwide market share Q1'08 = 3.21%
Q1'07 compared to Q1'08
Mac gain in worldwide market share = 0.8%
http://www.systemshootouts.org/images/mac_sales_market_share_lg.gif
Mac Market share from 1997 to Present.
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
Alan Baker
Edwin <thor...@juno.com> wrote:
Edwin: if you post an almost verbatim repeat of a previous post...
...do you really think anyone is going to be fooled by your latest
sockpuppet for even one minute?
--
"The iPhone doesn't have a speaker phone" -- "I checked very carefully" --
"I checked Apple's web pages" -- Edwin on the iPhone
"It is Mac OS X, not BSD.' -- 'From Mac OS to BSD Unix." -- "It's BSD Unix with Apple's APIs and GUI on top of it' -- 'nothing but BSD Unix' (Edwin on Mac OS X)
'[The IBM PC] could boot multiple OS, such as DOS, C/PM, GEM, etc.' --
'I claimed nothing about GEM other than it was available software for the
IBM PC. (Edwin on GEM)
'Solaris is just a marketing rename of Sun OS.' -- 'Sun OS is not included
on the timeline of Solaris because it's a different OS.' (Edwin on Sun)
7
> http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2007/04/25results.html
> fiscal 2007 second quarter ended March 31, 2007
> Apple shipped 1,517,000 Macintosh® computers
While Linux has improved its position to 1 million+ desktop installations
per week and sales of 1 million+ embedded Linux gadgets PER DAY.
Linux has the biggest supported device driver list on the planet!!!
Linux has the biggest envelope for highest frame rate/highest resolution
PC games.
There is 25,000 free software packages available for Linux
with source code and its all free.
Even if you could copy and install one a day, you would have
only got through 3,600 after 10 years!!
Superior desktop graphics
Example go to www.youtube.com and search for ubuntu and compiz
and see for yourself the most advanced Linux desktops.
And its all free and available to all decent PCs costing
no more than 300 pounds.
http://www.livecdlist.com
http://www.distrowatch.com
Tim Smith
7 <website_...@www.enemygadgets.com> wrote:
> > http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2007/04/25results.html
> > fiscal 2007 second quarter ended March 31, 2007
> > Apple shipped 1,517,000 Macintosh® computers
>
>
> While Linux has improved its position to 1 million+ desktop installations
> per week and sales of 1 million+ embedded Linux gadgets PER DAY.
1.5 million actual Mac sales are a lot more interesting than your
imaginary 13 million Linux desktops.
--
--Tim Smith
7
Doh!
Shows what appil asstroturfer know about counting!!!
=====
While Linux has improved its position to 1 million+ desktop installations
per week and sales of 1 million+ embedded Linux gadgets PER DAY.
Linux has the biggest supported device driver list on the planet!!!
Tim Smith
7 <website_...@www.enemygadgets.com> wrote:
> Appil Asstroturfer Tim Smith wrote on behalf of Appil Corporation:
>
> > In article <LRkZj.7946$DZ6....@text.news.virginmedia.com>,
> > 7 <website_...@www.enemygadgets.com> wrote:
> >> > http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2007/04/25results.html
> >> > fiscal 2007 second quarter ended March 31, 2007
> >> > Apple shipped 1,517,000 Macintosh® computers
> >>
> >>
> >> While Linux has improved its position to 1 million+ desktop installations
> >> per week and sales of 1 million+ embedded Linux gadgets PER DAY.
> >
> > 1.5 million actual Mac sales are a lot more interesting than your
> > imaginary 13 million Linux desktops.
>
>
> Doh!
> Shows what appil asstroturfer know about counting!!!
>
> =====
>
> While Linux has improved its position to 1 million+ desktop installations
> per week and sales of 1 million+ embedded Linux gadgets PER DAY.
1 million per week == 13 million per quarter, so your claim is that
Linux is beating Mac over 8 to 1 each quarter.
Yet the Mac users are visible. You can go stand outside an Apple store
and see people walking out with Macs. You can go to airports, and see
people working on Macs while waiting for their flights. You can go to
coffee shops and see people on Macs. They are showing up in web logs.
They are buying books about Macs. They are showing up in Mac software
sales and downloads. You can go to professional conferences, and see
more and more Macs in the audience. You can attend talks by Steve
Ballmer, and find Mac users sitting next to egg throwers. :-)
Your 13+ million Linux desktops per quarter seem to have fallen into a
black hole.
You could arguably dismiss any one or two of the areas where Macs are
showing up as a fluke (e.g., Macs are known to be popular among arty
types, and arty types hang out in coffee shops more than average people
do, so you might expect more Macs there), but taken all together, there
are a lot more Macs out there. Apple reports 1.5 million Macs in a
quarter, and we see Macs show up.
That simply does not happen with Linux. You claim over 8 times the
installs each quarter as Macs, yet in nearly everyplace one looks
outside of server rooms and embedded devices, there are far more Macs
than Linux desktops. Hence, your Linux numbers are clearly a complete
fantasy.
--
--Tim Smith
George Graves
(in article <reply_in_group-F9B...@news.supernews.com>):
If Linux was growing as fast as these Linuxheads are fantasizing that that it
is, you would be seeing announcements in the computer press fairly regularly,
that Microsoft is porting Office to Linux, that Adobe is porting CS3 to
linux, that Quicken and Quickbooks were being ported to Linux. But you don't.
That's because these 13 million desktops/quarter are imaginary desktops.
Open source software is the reason why the major developers aren't porting
their software to Linux, you say? Well, much of it is available for Mac as
well, and I've GIMP installed, Inkscape, and Scribus installed and I have
Open Office installed. They vary in usefulness from not very to merely OK.
The best of the lot is OO, and it's a decent competitor to MS Office, but it
has a way to go before its Office's equal. It also needs to maintain 100%
compatibility with Office to replace it in the enterprise, and that's nowhere
near "there". Believe me, Linux usage would go up considerably if there were
some professional grade apps to go with it.
Rick
It may needs to maintain 100% compatibility with Office to replace it in
the enterprise, but it doesn't need to maintain 100% compatibility with
Office to compete with it.
--
Rick
Moshe. Goldfarb
> In article <irmZj.8013$DZ6....@text.news.virginmedia.com>,
> 7 <website_...@www.enemygadgets.com> wrote:
>> Appil Asstroturfer Tim Smith wrote on behalf of Appil Corporation:
>>
>>> In article <LRkZj.7946$DZ6....@text.news.virginmedia.com>,
>>> 7 <website_...@www.enemygadgets.com> wrote:
>>>> > http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2007/04/25results.html
>>>> > fiscal 2007 second quarter ended March 31, 2007
>>>> > Apple shipped 1,517,000 Macintosh® computers
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> While Linux has improved its position to 1 million+ desktop installations
>>>> per week and sales of 1 million+ embedded Linux gadgets PER DAY.
>>>
>>> 1.5 million actual Mac sales are a lot more interesting than your
>>> imaginary 13 million Linux desktops.
>>
>>
>> Doh!
>> Shows what appil asstroturfer know about counting!!!
>>
>> =====
>>
>> While Linux has improved its position to 1 million+ desktop installations
>> per week and sales of 1 million+ embedded Linux gadgets PER DAY.
>
> 1 million per week == 13 million per quarter, so your claim is that
> Linux is beating Mac over 8 to 1 each quarter.
mjcr isn't too bright.
> Yet the Mac users are visible. You can go stand outside an Apple store
> and see people walking out with Macs. You can go to airports, and see
> people working on Macs while waiting for their flights. You can go to
> coffee shops and see people on Macs. They are showing up in web logs.
> They are buying books about Macs. They are showing up in Mac software
> sales and downloads. You can go to professional conferences, and see
> more and more Macs in the audience. You can attend talks by Steve
> Ballmer, and find Mac users sitting next to egg throwers. :-)
That's my point and I *do* see far more Macs lately than I have ever seen
except in the early 80's in the schools.
> Your 13+ million Linux desktops per quarter seem to have fallen into a
> black hole.
Exactly!
Outside of comp. sci and engineering programs in Universities, Linux is
just not seen on the desktop.
So where are all these Linux desktop's hiding?
> You could arguably dismiss any one or two of the areas where Macs are
> showing up as a fluke (e.g., Macs are known to be popular among arty
> types, and arty types hang out in coffee shops more than average people
> do, so you might expect more Macs there), but taken all together, there
> are a lot more Macs out there. Apple reports 1.5 million Macs in a
> quarter, and we see Macs show up.
Somewhat true, but I see regular business travelers using Macbooks etc
where I used to see them with Thinkpads and Dell.
I make it a point to look around when I travel and I can tell you for a
fact, the Mac market share is growing in leaps and bounds.
I don't think I have ever seen a business traveler running Linux.
Ever.
> That simply does not happen with Linux. You claim over 8 times the
> installs each quarter as Macs, yet in nearly everyplace one looks
> outside of server rooms and embedded devices, there are far more Macs
> than Linux desktops. Hence, your Linux numbers are clearly a complete
> fantasy.
mjcr is a total fraud.
--
Moshe Goldfarb
Collector of soaps from around the globe.
Please visit The Hall of Linux Idiots:
http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/
Moshe. Goldfarb
I'm not sure about MSOffice, I suspect Microsoft would want to keep that
one for Windows and Mac however the others are a good point.
Also you would see Dell etc advertising Linux machines.
You don't.
Linux is buried on the Dell site.
> Open source software is the reason why the major developers aren't porting
> their software to Linux, you say? Well, much of it is available for Mac as
> well, and I've GIMP installed, Inkscape, and Scribus installed and I have
> Open Office installed. They vary in usefulness from not very to merely OK.
Some of it is decent.
Much of it is terrible.
People want decent help systems as well.
> The best of the lot is OO, and it's a decent competitor to MS Office, but it
> has a way to go before its Office's equal. It also needs to maintain 100%
> compatibility with Office to replace it in the enterprise, and that's nowhere
> near "there". Believe me, Linux usage would go up considerably if there were
> some professional grade apps to go with it.
I'm not so sure.
Open Office is ok for the basic stuff but it is slow and certainly not as
good as Office.
Also people are nervous about compatibility.
George Graves
(in article <NsmdnfPSe9wAhavV...@supernews.com>):
> On Thu, 22 May 2008 17:58:35 -0700, George Graves wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 22 May 2008 17:38:29 -0700, Tim Smith wrote (in article
>> <reply_in_group-F9B...@news.supernews.com>):
>>
>>> In article <irmZj.8013$DZ6....@text.news.virginmedia.com>,
>>> 7 <website_...@www.enemygadgets.com> wrote:
>>>> Appil Asstroturfer Tim Smith wrote on behalf of Appil Corporation:
>>>>
>>>>> In article <LRkZj.7946$DZ6....@text.news.virginmedia.com>, 7
>>>>> <website_...@www.enemygadgets.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2007/04/25results.html fiscal 2007
>>>>>>> second quarter ended March 31, 2007 Apple shipped 1,517,000
>>>>>>> Macintosh® computers
You just repeated what I said.
Mitch
<website_...@www.enemygadgets.com> wrote:
> > http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2007/04/25results.html
> > fiscal 2007 second quarter ended March 31, 2007
> > Apple shipped 1,517,000 Macintosh® computers
>
>
> While Linux has improved its position to 1 million+ desktop installations
> per week and sales of 1 million+ embedded Linux gadgets PER DAY.
Where is your cite?
Everyone else can see this is idiotic; show us why YOU believe it.
> Linux has the biggest supported device driver list on the planet!!!
So where does that matter?
Do you figure this is a discussion about all devices of all kinds?
> Linux has the biggest envelope for highest frame rate/highest resolution
> PC games.
Fine -- so take it to the Windows group. They love unsupported and
stupid claims of superiority.
> There is 25,000 free software packages available for Linux
> with source code and its all free.
> Even if you could copy and install one a day, you would have
> only got through 3,600 after 10 years!!
>
> Superior desktop graphics
> Example go to www.youtube.com and search for ubuntu and compiz
> and see for yourself the most advanced Linux desktops.
> And its all free and available to all decent PCs costing
> no more than 300 pounds.
Okay; you've made a couple arguments for Linux.
Do you know any against it?
- Technical learning curve?
- Annoying inconsistencies?
- Frequent maintenance and upgrading tasks?
- no people liable for problems
- in most ways, similar to Windows UIs
Mitch
<website_...@www.enemygadgets.com> wrote:
> > 1.5 million actual Mac sales are a lot more interesting than your
> > imaginary 13 million Linux desktops.
>
>
> Doh!
> Shows what appil asstroturfer know about counting!!!
Are you sure?
You just claimed that Linux numbers go up by 1M every week -- and still
hasn't got much market share!
How many computers do you think there are in the world?
Linonut
> That simply does not happen with Linux. You claim over 8 times the
> installs each quarter as Macs, yet in nearly everyplace one looks
> outside of server rooms and embedded devices, there are far more Macs
> than Linux desktops. Hence, your Linux numbers are clearly a complete
> fantasy.
Outside of Best Buy, I've seen only /one/ Mac, belonging to a family
friend who visited from California.
I know far more desktop Linux users than Mac users.
Of course, that's just the view through my little peephole!
--
It's possible, you can never know, that the universe exists only for me. If so,
it's sure going well for me, I must admit.
-- Bill Gates, TIME magazine Vol. 149, No. 2 (13 January 1997)
Linonut
> Open source software is the reason why the major developers aren't porting
> their software to Linux, you say? Well, much of it is available for Mac as
> well, and I've GIMP installed, Inkscape, and Scribus installed and I have
> Open Office installed. They vary in usefulness from not very to merely OK.
> The best of the lot is OO, and it's a decent competitor to MS Office, but it
> has a way to go before its Office's equal. It also needs to maintain 100%
> compatibility with Office to replace it in the enterprise, and that's nowhere
> near "there". Believe me, Linux usage would go up considerably if there were
> some professional grade apps to go with it.
Don't be idiotic. GNU/Linux supports quite a few professional-grade
applications, and the usage of Linux has about tripled in the last few
years (less than five) by various metrics.
With essentially /no/ advertising.
--
I believe that if you show people the problems and you show them the
solutions they will be moved to act.
-- Bill Gates
Rick
I will rephrase: Open Office is a very good replacement for a large
number of people right now.
--
Rick
chrisv
>If Linux was growing as fast as these Linuxheads are fantasizing
Not all "Linuxheads" are "fantasizing", "digital music expert" George
Graves. (Well, I do, about Sandra Bullock, but that's another issue
entirely.)
There may be one or two rather "kooky" advocates who may exaggerate.
That doesn't mean that "Linuxheads" are not, in general, reasonable,
realistic people.
George Graves
(in article <EYxZj.79140$%15.1...@bignews7.bellsouth.net>):
> * George Graves peremptorily fired off this memo:
>
>> Open source software is the reason why the major developers aren't porting
>> their software to Linux, you say? Well, much of it is available for Mac as
>> well, and I've GIMP installed, Inkscape, and Scribus installed and I have
>> Open Office installed. They vary in usefulness from not very to merely OK.
>> The best of the lot is OO, and it's a decent competitor to MS Office, but
>> it
>> has a way to go before its Office's equal. It also needs to maintain 100%
>> compatibility with Office to replace it in the enterprise, and that's
>> nowhere
>> near "there". Believe me, Linux usage would go up considerably if there
>> were
>> some professional grade apps to go with it.
>
> Don't be idiotic. GNU/Linux supports quite a few professional-grade
> applications, and the usage of Linux has about tripled in the last few
> years (less than five) by various metrics.
Name these "professional grade" applications and compare them with their
shrink-wrap equivalents. Major features will do nicely. No need to go
overboard.
In short, if these "professional grade" applications do exist, most of us
have never seen or heard of them.
Ezekiel
"George Graves" <gmgr...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:0001HW.C45C1BA7...@news.comcast.net...
At the "enterprise level" there are things like Oracle, SAP and stuff like
that which is available for linux and other operating systems. This is to be
expected because linux is popular in the server room.
When it comes to the desktop however, the professional grade choices are
rather limited.
-hh
>
> While Linux has improved its position to 1 million+
> desktop installations per week and sales of 1
> million+ embedded Linux gadgets PER DAY.
But are you measuring something that's relevant?
For example, if the claim here is that 1M/week desktops are being
added for the general personal computer (PC) application, then this
pool is relevant to the estimated worldwide population of roughly 1
Billion PCs in general purpose use.
Doing the math on marketshare, 1M/week out of 1B equals 0.001B/1B = +.
001 = 0.1% growth in marketshare representation ... per *week*.
That would be +0.4% growth per month, or +4.8% per year.
I don't necessarly totally advocate the use of:
http://marketshare.hitslink.com/report.aspx?qprid=8
...but barring anything clearly better, I'll use it as my citation
source.
From it, the April 2008 market share representation (as they define
it) for Linux was 0.6%. In June 2007, it was 0.4%. This is a growth
rate of +0.2%/year...ie, +0.004%/week, which suggests that the above
claim is wrong by TWO FULL ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE.
Thus, even if we accept the original claim (+1M/week) as being true,
the failure for these new systems to be reflected in the above
marketshare measurement tool functionally means that ~99% of these new
Linux systems are **NOT** being used in general purpose PC desktop-
type applications...
...and thus, 7's claim has zero relevancy to the topic at hand.
-hh
Linonut
> On Fri, 23 May 2008 04:35:41 -0700, Linonut wrote
> (in article <EYxZj.79140$%15.1...@bignews7.bellsouth.net>):
>
>> * George Graves peremptorily fired off this memo:
>>
>>> Believe me, Linux usage would go up considerably if there
>>> were some professional grade apps to go with it.
>>
>> Don't be idiotic. GNU/Linux supports quite a few professional-grade
>> applications, and the usage of Linux has about tripled in the last few
>> years (less than five) by various metrics.
>
> Name these "professional grade" applications and compare them with their
> shrink-wrap equivalents. Major features will do nicely. No need to go
> overboard.
>
> In short, if these "professional grade" applications do exist, most of us
> have never seen or heard of them.
OpenOffice/KOffice
gcc
the Linux kernel
amarok, xine, mplayer, or vlc
GIMP
Thunderbird/Firefox
GNOME or KDE
Even in stuff like UML (object-oriented diagramming), open-source stuff
is very competitive. And, in some cases, proprietary products are
spin-offs of open-source code (e.g. Poseidon UML is a spin-off of
ArgoUML).
Open source has most bases pretty well covered.
Are there missing or inferior elements? Of course.
But your characterization of the state of "professional grade"
application is simply stupid, ignorant, or based on some kind of
not-so-hidden agenda.
I wonder if I can nominate a newsgroup troll for a Zoon award?
--
Windows 2000 already contains features such as the human discipline
component, where the PC can send an electric shock through the keyboard if
the human does something that does not please Windows.
-- Bill Gates
George Graves
(in article <d254d$4836cf29$24...@news.teranews.com>):
And this keeps Linux off of most desktops. Both on the job and at home.
JEDIDIAH
...of course it is not the "professional grade choices" that are the problem.
The common problems are trivially easy to solve. You have to be a total moron
to even argue about them.
The problem with Windows is what has always been the problem with Windows.
All of the more obscure things are available for Windows and nothing else.
>
> And this keeps Linux off of most desktops. Both on the job and at home.
>
--
Sophocles wants his cut. |||
/ | \
Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.usenet.com
George Graves
(in article <j7BZj.18741$255....@bignews8.bellsouth.net>):
> * George Graves peremptorily fired off this memo:
>
>> On Fri, 23 May 2008 04:35:41 -0700, Linonut wrote
>> (in article <EYxZj.79140$%15.1...@bignews7.bellsouth.net>):
>>
>>> * George Graves peremptorily fired off this memo:
>>>
>>>> Believe me, Linux usage would go up considerably if there
>>>> were some professional grade apps to go with it.
>>>
>>> Don't be idiotic. GNU/Linux supports quite a few professional-grade
>>> applications, and the usage of Linux has about tripled in the last few
>>> years (less than five) by various metrics.
>>
>> Name these "professional grade" applications and compare them with their
>> shrink-wrap equivalents. Major features will do nicely. No need to go
>> overboard.
>>
>> In short, if these "professional grade" applications do exist, most of us
>> have never seen or heard of them.
>
> OpenOffice/KOffice
Its OK, not as good as MS Office, and it cannot replace it, but its ok. I use
it myself.
> gcc
A GNU compiler is not the kind of application I was referring to, and you
know it.
> the Linux kernel
A Kernel is not an application
> amarok, xine, mplayer, or vlc
These are media players. Please explain how they are as good as things like
WMP. QuickTime, or iTunes.
> GIMP
Not ready for primetime. Cannot work with CMYK, can only output it. Clumsy
interface. lots of missing capabilities. An amateur application for home
picture editing. Not as good as any of the shrink-wrapped alternatives such
as Photoshop Elements.
> Thunderbird/Firefox
Web Browsers that are available for all platforms. Like most web browsers,
there are good and bad points about each.
> GNOME or KDE
GUI shells are not applications (at least not in the way I was using the
term).
I have not seen you explain why any of these apps are as good as their
shrink-wrapped "competition" . All you have done is throw out a bunch of OS
titles that I and everyone else already know about.
>
> Even in stuff like UML (object-oriented diagramming), open-source stuff
> is very competitive. And, in some cases, proprietary products are
> spin-offs of open-source code (e.g. Poseidon UML is a spin-off of
> ArgoUML).
>
> Open source has most bases pretty well covered.
>
> Are there missing or inferior elements? Of course.
>
> But your characterization of the state of "professional grade"
> application is simply stupid, ignorant, or based on some kind of
> not-so-hidden agenda.
My agenda is neither stupid nor ignorant. Linux for the desktop is relegated
to Linux enthusiasts and home users who's needs are simply not very
sophisticated. Abnd that;s simply NOT changing. While some of the
open-software available for Linux is good enough for home usage, none of it
is ready for the enterprise. I'd be very surprised if any professional
graphic artists use either the GIMP or InkScape. And I have never heard of a
pro DTPer who uses Scribus to lay-out a professional publication (Ok, a Linux
magazine or two brag that they use this stuff, but then, they would, wouldn't
they?).
Sgt. Friday
For the benefit of "most of us:"
Adobe Flash
http://labs.adobe.com/technologies/flex/flexbuilder_linux/
Adobe Flex Builder
http://labs.adobe.com/technologies/air/
Adobe AIR
http://www.adobe.com/support/downloads/product.jsp?product=10&platform=unix
Adobe Reader
http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/index?siteID=123112&id=7639522
Autodesk Maya
http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/index?siteID=123112&id=5677331
Autodesk Burn
http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/index?siteID=123112&id=6861765
Autodesk mental ray
http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/index?siteID=123112&id=7851423
Autodesk Flint
http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/index?siteID=123112&id=7851330
Autodesk Inferno
http://www.oracle.com/technology/software/products/database/index.html
Oracle Database
http://www.storix.com/oracle?gclid=CJ70yOP3vJMCFQOuFQodTkHFCQ
Storix
http://www.bricscad.com/en_INTL/bricscad/features.jsp?gclid=CLWclvb7vJMCFQWVFQod5l17CQ
Bricscad
http://www.varicad.com/en/home/
Varicad
CYCAS CAD
http://www.progesoft.com/compra/index.asp?left=../cadforlinux/main&lang=eng&abspage=1
Progesoft CAD for Linux
http://www.mathworks.com/products/matlab/requirements.html
http://www.sybase.com/linux/ase
MATLAB 7.6
http://www.sybase.com/linux/ase
Adaptive Server Enterprise for Linux
http://www.sybase.com/linux/sqlanywhere
SQL Anywhere for Linux
Dia
That's just a small sampling of available "professional grade" Linux
applications.
Mitch
<27098b8f-681f-49f9...@m3g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>, -hh
<recscub...@huntzinger.com> wrote:
> I don't necessarly totally advocate the use of:
> http://marketshare.hitslink.com/report.aspx?qprid=8
>
> ...but barring anything clearly better, I'll use it as my citation
> source.
>
> From it, the April 2008 market share representation (as they define
> it) for Linux was 0.6%. In June 2007, it was 0.4%. This is a growth
> rate of +0.2%/year...ie, +0.004%/week, which suggests that the above
> claim is wrong by TWO FULL ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE.
HH didn't say it, so I will:
this is another situation where retail reportage won't serve us.
Linux users may build their own, buy and replace an OS, or upgrade
older stuff, but in all those cases market share is misleading.
Unfortunately, hitslink is still using the "market share" term where it
does not apply, and misleads people more.
Linonut
>> But your characterization of the state of "professional grade"
>> application is simply stupid, ignorant, or based on some kind of
>> not-so-hidden agenda.
>
> My agenda is neither stupid nor ignorant. Linux for the desktop is relegated
> to Linux enthusiasts and home users who's needs are simply not very
> sophisticated. Abnd that;s simply NOT changing.
Wrong on both counts. You are being stupid and ignorant, in my opinion.
> While some of the
> open-software available for Linux is good enough for home usage, none of it
> is ready for the enterprise. I'd be very surprised if any professional
> graphic artists use either the GIMP or InkScape. And I have never heard of a
> pro DTPer who uses Scribus to lay-out a professional publication (Ok, a Linux
> magazine or two brag that they use this stuff, but then, they would, wouldn't
> they?).
You are simply wrong. And my knowledge of the apps out there beyond
what I use is far from complete. You can counter everything I just
said, and still be wrong, simply because both you and I are ignorant as
to what is really out there.
All I know is that there are a lot more apps out there than I have
mentioned, and there are also a lot of apps that can be run under Linux,
with WINE, including Photoshop.
It seems very foolish to me to say that Linux does not have any
professional grade applications, in just about any field.
Even if you are entirely right (and I do not believe so, not for a
minute), so what? Use Linux for your main OS, and use another one for
those few apps you think you really need on OSX or Windows. Linux has
many strength over those systems.
Let me quote again where you are just being obstinate:
> My agenda is neither stupid nor ignorant. Linux for the desktop is relegated
> to Linux enthusiasts and home users who's needs are simply not very
> sophisticated. Abnd that;s simply NOT changing.
Tell it to IBM, the movie industry, supercomputer facilities, European
municipalites, and the large numbers of people who have no need at all
for Windows (and Mac).
It is patently silly to dismiss Linux, even on the "desktop", at this
point in time.
--
We are not even close to finishing the basic dream of what the PC can be.
-- Bill Gates
Sgt. Friday
Which people are your going to replace with Open Office?
George Graves
(in article <e0866$4836f569$14...@news.teranews.com>):
An alpha version
>
> http://labs.adobe.com/technologies/air/
>
> Adobe AIR
An alpha version
>
> http://www.adobe.com/support/downloads/product.jsp?product=10&platform=unix
>
> Adobe Reader
Free software. Nice they finally included Linux
>
> http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/index?siteID=123112&id=7639522
>
> Autodesk Maya
Famous 3D package - I'd forgotten about that one.
>
> http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/index?siteID=123112&id=5677331
>
> Autodesk Burn
Part of Maya
>
> http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/index?siteID=123112&id=6861765
>
> Autodesk mental ray
Part of Maya
>
> http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/index?siteID=123112&id=7851423
>
> Autodesk Flint
Part of Maya
>
> http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/index?siteID=123112&id=7851330
>
> Autodesk Inferno
Part of Maya
>
> http://www.oracle.com/technology/software/products/database/index.html
>
> Oracle Database
>
> http://www.storix.com/oracle?gclid=CJ70yOP3vJMCFQOuFQodTkHFCQ
>
> Storix
Part of Oracle database
>
>
http://www.bricscad.com/en_INTL/bricscad/features.jsp?gclid=CLWclvb7vJMCFQWVFQ
> od5l17CQ
>
> Bricscad
Pretty good CAD system
>
> http://www.varicad.com/en/home/
>
> Varicad
Good CAD program
>
> http://www.cycas.de/
>
> CYCAS CAD
Another decent CAD program
>
>
http://www.progesoft.com/compra/index.asp?left=../cadforlinux/main&lang=eng&ab
> spage=1
>
> Progesoft CAD for Linux
Another decent CAD program
>
> http://www.mathworks.com/products/matlab/requirements.html
>
> http://www.sybase.com/linux/ase
>
> MATLAB 7.6
We all know Matlab
>
> http://www.sybase.com/linux/ase
>
> Adaptive Server Enterprise for Linux
Sybase for Linux, who knew?
>
> http://www.sybase.com/linux/sqlanywhere
>
> SQL Anywhere for Linux
Part of Sybase
>
> http://live.gnome.org/Dia
>
> Dia
"Visio" for Linux.
>
> That's just a small sampling of available "professional grade" Linux
> applications.
> ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
Actually, its about all of them, isn't it? So aside from Maya and all its
standalone components, Sybase and its standalone components, 4 CAD packages,
a Gnu "Visio" knockoff, Matlab, a couple of Adobe "alpha" enabling plug-ins
for Linux, and a version of Acrobat Reader, what else is there? I have to be
honest, I didn't think that there was this much (I did know about Maya,
though) and I'm impressed. While there's nothing there that I could or would
have any use for, its certainly a start, but I really see few productivity
apps. For instance, you have Acrobat Reader from Adobe, but no Distiller. No
Illustrator, no Indesign, no Photoshop. You have Maya from AutoDesk, but no
AutoCAD. When these apps are ported to Linux, I'll respect it as much as a
desktop OS as I already respect it as a server OS (wouldn't use anything
else).
Sgt. Friday
No, not by a long shot.
. So aside from Maya and all its
> standalone components, Sybase and its standalone components, 4 CAD packages,
> a Gnu "Visio" knockoff, Matlab, a couple of Adobe "alpha" enabling plug-ins
> for Linux,
They're a bit more than "plug-ins."
"The Adobe® AIR for Linux alpha is a version of the Adobe AIR runtime
that allows Adobe AIR applications to be deployed on computers and
devices running the Linux operating system. In addition, Adobe Flex®
Builder™ for Linux can be used to build rich internet applications that
deploy to the desktop and run across operating systems using proven web
technologies."
It's true they're alpha now, but they weren't created because Linux
isn't being used.
> and a version of Acrobat Reader, what else is there? I have to be
> honest, I didn't think that there was this much (I did know about Maya,
> though) and I'm impressed. While there's nothing there that I could or would
> have any use for, its certainly a start,
I really wasn't trying to list every professional Linux application in
existence.
> but I really see few productivity
> apps. For instance, you have Acrobat Reader from Adobe, but no Distiller. No
> Illustrator, no Indesign, no Photoshop. You have Maya from AutoDesk, but no
> AutoCAD.
You do realize the Mac doesn't have AutoCAD either, right?
> When these apps are ported to Linux, I'll respect it as much as a
> desktop OS as I already respect it as a server OS (wouldn't use anything
> else).
Okay, here's some more:
http://www.codeweavers.com/products/cxlinux/
"CrossOver Linux allows you to install many popular Windows productivity
applications, plugins and games in Linux, without needing a Microsoft
Operating System license. CrossOver includes an easy to use, single
click interface, which makes installing a Windows application simple and
fast. Once installed, your application integrate seamlessly with your
Gnome or KDE environment. Just click and run your application, exactly
as you would in Windows, but with the full freedom of Linux."
"CrossOver Linux lets you use many Windows plugins directly from your
Linux browser. Plugins work on any x86 based Linux distribution and will
integrate with most browsers including Firefox 1.x, Netscape 6.x,
Konqueror, Mozilla, and Opera. CrossOver also integrates with Gnome and
KDE to let you transparently open any Word, Excel or PowerPoint file.
But even better, you can open these attachment types directly from any
mail client."
http://www.mediascape.com/artstream-linux.html
Mediascape Artstream for Linux
"Artstream now runs on the Intel family of processors and, for the first
time, brings professional illustration and page layout to the Linux
environment. Artstream, working with raster editors such as Gimp and
printer/scanner managers such as those from Vividata, ESP and Caldera,
now completes the suite of tools for Graphic Design and Desktop
Publishing on Linux. All the functionality provided in Artstream for
Irix is supported. Artstream's full featured illustration tools, with
Artstream innovations such as VectorPaint®, ShadeGuides® and DynaLenses,
along with photo placement, masks, precision typography, multi-page
story flow and more are all included. With only some cosmetic
differences with the Irix desktop, Artstream for Linux is a complete
workalike to Artstream for Irix, and obtains comparable performance
benefits from OpenGL® acceleration hardware from SGI and other SGI
conformant OpenGL vendors. Those already familiar with the Irix version,
and those maintaining both environments, will find transitioning easy. "
http://www.vividata.com/index.html
"Vividata provides Optical Character Recognition and Image Processing
software for Linux and UNIX environments for commercial usage,
high-volume applications, and customized applications."
Realsoft 3D Version 6
http://www-1.ibm.com/support/docview.wss?rs=475&uid=swg27007909
IBM Lotus Notes, Lotus Domino, Lotus Domino Administrator, Lotus Domino
Designer, and Lotus Notes Traveler
http://www.treepad.com/linux/treepadlite/
TreePad Lite for Linux
Personal Information Manager + Database
http://www.pagestream.org/index.php
PageStream
http://software.viva.de/english/products/vivadesigner/333/
"VivaDesigner is the first layout program world-wide to be available on
all major platforms, Windows, Mac and Linux/Unix. "
http://www.scalix.com/enterprise/technology/
"The Scalix technology is different. Our enterprise-class messaging and
collaboration platform takes the cost and complexity out of
administration and upgrades, and gives you the freedom to choose the
infrastructure, applications, and desktops that best suit your business
needs. As a result, your total cost of ownership is dramatically
reduced, and your investment in current and future messaging systems is
protected. How do we do it? With an architecture based on open standards
and an industrial-strength Linux platform."
"Writer's Café is a software toolkit for all fiction writers, whether
experienced or just starting out. The heart of Writer's Café is
StoryLines, a powerful but simple to use story development tool that
dramatically accelerates the creation and structuring of your novel or
screenplay."
Rick
.. and you think you have any credibility posting from teranews, and with
the handle of Sgt. Friday?
--
Rick
Rick
> On Fri, 23 May 2008 08:10:53 -0700, Linonut wrote (in article
> <j7BZj.18741$255....@bignews8.bellsouth.net>):
>
>> * George Graves peremptorily fired off this memo:
>>
>>> On Fri, 23 May 2008 04:35:41 -0700, Linonut wrote (in article
>>> <EYxZj.79140$%15.1...@bignews7.bellsouth.net>):
>>>
>>>> * George Graves peremptorily fired off this memo:
>>>>
>>>>> Believe me, Linux usage would go up considerably if there were some
>>>>> professional grade apps to go with it.
>>>>
>>>> Don't be idiotic. GNU/Linux supports quite a few professional-grade
>>>> applications, and the usage of Linux has about tripled in the last
>>>> few years (less than five) by various metrics.
>>>
>>> Name these "professional grade" applications and compare them with
>>> their shrink-wrap equivalents. Major features will do nicely. No need
>>> to go overboard.
>>>
>>> In short, if these "professional grade" applications do exist, most of
>>> us have never seen or heard of them.
>>
>> OpenOffice/KOffice
>
> Its OK, not as good as MS Office, and it cannot replace it, but its ok.
> I use it myself.
It CAN replace MS Office. And, IMO, it can replace MS Office in the
overwhelming majority of cases.
>
>> gcc
>
> A GNU compiler is not the kind of application I was referring to, and
> you know it.
Prodessionals don't use it?
>
>> the Linux kernel
>
> A Kernel is not an application
>
>> amarok, xine, mplayer, or vlc
>
> These are media players. Please explain how they are as good as things
> like WMP. QuickTime, or iTunes.
That all depends on what you want. For instance, Amarok can access a
music store. You can manage an iPod from it, it will manage your music,
DL album covers and play music.
In my experience, mplayer will play almost any codec out there, including
the new flv videos that are causing other players problems.
>
>
>> GIMP
>
> Not ready for primetime.
That all depends on how you define prime time.
> Cannot work with CMYK, can only output it.
I don't need for image manipulation. You might need it for printing, but
Gimp has never claimed to be a print related application. It just happens
to have 90-ish % of the capabilities of Photoshop, a print related app.
> Clumsy interface
In your opinion. When I move from Gimp to Photoshop, I find Photoshop
clumsy.
> lots of missing capabilities. An amateur application
> for home picture editing. Not as good as any of the shrink-wrapped
> alternatives such as Photoshop Elements.
IYO.
>
>> Thunderbird/Firefox
>
> Web Browsers that are available for all platforms. Like most web
> browsers, there are good and bad points about each.
>
>> GNOME or KDE
>
> GUI shells are not applications (at least not in the way I was using the
> term).
>
> I have not seen you explain why any of these apps are as good as their
> shrink-wrapped "competition" . All you have done is throw out a bunch of
> OS titles that I and everyone else already know about.
>
>
>
>> Even in stuff like UML (object-oriented diagramming), open-source stuff
>> is very competitive. And, in some cases, proprietary products are
>> spin-offs of open-source code (e.g. Poseidon UML is a spin-off of
>> ArgoUML).
>>
>> Open source has most bases pretty well covered.
>>
>> Are there missing or inferior elements? Of course.
>>
>> But your characterization of the state of "professional grade"
>> application is simply stupid, ignorant, or based on some kind of
>> not-so-hidden agenda.
>
> My agenda is neither stupid nor ignorant. Linux for the desktop is
> relegated to Linux enthusiasts and home users who's needs are simply not
> very sophisticated.
Tell that to Red Hat's enterprise desktop users. You know, the ones that
use desktops for "real work".
Tell that to the employees of Largo and Chicago. You knwo, people that do
"real work".
> Abnd that;s simply NOT changing. While some of the
> open-software available for Linux is good enough for home usage, none of
> it is ready for the enterprise.
Again, tell that to the users of RHEL.
> I'd be very surprised if any
> professional graphic artists use either the GIMP or InkScape. And I have
Well then, maybe you've never heard of Cinepaint. They have in Hollywood.
> never heard of a pro DTPer who uses Scribus to lay-out a professional
> publication (Ok, a Linux magazine or two brag that they use this stuff,
> but then, they would, wouldn't they?).
--
Rick
Rick
I guess it's a good thing that the users of RHEL don't care if you
respect their desktop OS or not.
--
Rick
Tim Murray
>
> While Linux has improved its position to 1 million+ desktop installations
> per week and sales of 1 million+ embedded Linux gadgets PER DAY.
Why have I never, ever seen a single Linux machine in my travels? Sure, I
don't walk up and squint at every user's machine at the airport, but I do
look around.
Rick
Not in Largo. Not in many Hollywood studios. Not in many offices in
Europe.
--
Rick
Snit
TtWdnYdy9Le7yarV...@supernews.com on 5/23/08 4:32 PM:
>>> OpenOffice/KOffice
>>
>> Its OK, not as good as MS Office, and it cannot replace it, but its ok.
>> I use it myself.
>
> It CAN replace MS Office. And, IMO, it can replace MS Office in the
> overwhelming majority of cases.
It has gotten better... though I would love to see your support that it can
replace it in the "overwhelming majority of cases".
--
If A = B and B = C, then A = C, except where void or prohibited by law.
Roy Santoro, Psycho Proverb Zone (http://snipurl.com/BurdenOfProof)
Snit
>>> I will rephrase: Open Office is a very good replacement for a large
>>> number of people right now.
>>
>> Which people are your going to replace with Open Office?
>>
>> ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
>
> .. and you think you have any credibility posting from teranews, and with
> the handle of Sgt. Friday?
Nice way to attack the messenger and avoid the message!
--
Dear Aunt, let's set so double the killer delete select all
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1123221217782777472
ZnU
George Graves <gmgr...@comcast.net> wrote:
> On Fri, 23 May 2008 09:48:40 -0700, Sgt. Friday wrote
> (in article <e0866$4836f569$14...@news.teranews.com>):
[snip]
> > That's just a small sampling of available "professional grade" Linux
> > applications.
>
> Actually, its about all of them, isn't it? So aside from Maya and all its
> standalone components, Sybase and its standalone components, 4 CAD packages,
> a Gnu "Visio" knockoff, Matlab, a couple of Adobe "alpha" enabling plug-ins
> for Linux, and a version of Acrobat Reader, what else is there?
Even more importantly, look at the types of apps. The major apps on the
list are mostly in fields were proprietary Unix operating systems once
reigned. They don't represent some sort of bottom-up growth of a new
desktop app market on Linux.
This is what I've been saying for years. Linux has some decent apps for
very common desktop tasks like web browsing, word processing and e-mail.
And it has a scattering of high-end apps from markets where Unix used to
be popular, like high-end 3D. But that's about it. And that's not enough
to make it a viable operating system for demanding users, unless they
happen to be in certain very specific fields.
--
"More than two decades later, it is hard to imagine the Revolutionary War coming
out any other way."
--George W. Bush in Martinsburg, W. Va., July 4, 2007
Linonut
> This is what I've been saying for years. Linux has some decent apps for
> very common desktop tasks like web browsing, word processing and e-mail.
> And it has a scattering of high-end apps from markets where Unix used to
> be popular, like high-end 3D. But that's about it. And that's not enough
> to make it a viable operating system for demanding users, unless they
> happen to be in certain very specific fields.
Get back with us when you've evaluated all of the applications in this
partial list of commercial applications, circa 2005:
http://www.yolinux.com/TUTORIALS/LinuxCommercialApplications.html
I don't see any of the commercial text-to-speech products we're looking
into on that list, by the way.
Simply put, both you and George are full of it. Here's your idiocy,
repeated:
"And that's not enough to make it a viable operating system for
demanding users, unless they happen to be in certain very specific
fields."
If you're going to troll, you need to have a plausible thesis.
--
Like almost everyone who uses e-mail, I receive a ton of spam every day.
Much of it offers to help me get out of debt or get rich quick. It would be
funny if it weren't so exciting.
-- Bill Gates
Edwin
> In article <0001HW.C45C777C0016549EF0184...@news.comcast.net>,
> George Graves <gmgrav...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > On Fri, 23 May 2008 09:48:40 -0700, Sgt. Friday wrote
> > (in article <e0866$4836f569$14...@news.teranews.com>):
>
> [snip]
>
> > > That's just a small sampling of available "professional grade" Linux
> > > applications.
>
> > Actually, its about all of them, isn't it? So aside from Maya and all its
> > standalone components, Sybase and its standalone components, 4 CAD packages,
> > a Gnu "Visio" knockoff, Matlab, a couple of Adobe "alpha" enabling plug-ins
> > for Linux, and a version of Acrobat Reader, what else is there?
>
> Even more importantly, look at the types of apps. The major apps on the
> list are mostly in fields were proprietary Unix operating systems once
> reigned. They don't represent some sort of bottom-up growth of a new
> desktop app market on Linux.
>
> This is what I've been saying for years. Linux has some decent apps for
> very common desktop tasks like web browsing, word processing and e-mail.
> And it has a scattering of high-end apps from markets where Unix used to
> be popular, like high-end 3D. But that's about it. And that's not enough
> to make it a viable operating system for demanding users, unless they
> happen to be in certain very specific fields.
ZnU will now explain how Microsoft Silverlight for Linux comprises an
old Unix application from a "very specific field."
Edwin
> On Fri, 23 May 2008 12:53:34 -0500, Sgt. Friday wrote:
> > Rick wrote:
> >> On Thu, 22 May 2008 20:33:31 -0700, George Graves wrote:
>
> >>> On Thu, 22 May 2008 18:06:37 -0700, Rick wrote (in article
>
> >>>> On Thu, 22 May 2008 17:58:35 -0700, George Graves wrote:
>
> >>>>> On Thu, 22 May 2008 17:38:29 -0700, Tim Smith wrote (in article
>
[snip]
>
> >> I will rephrase: Open Office is a very good replacement for a large
> >> number of people right now.
>
> > Which people are your going to replace with Open Office?
>
> > ** Posted fromhttp://www.teranews.com**
>
> .. and you think you have any credibility posting from teranews, and with
> the handle of Sgt. Friday?
What kind of "credibility" does he need to make a joke, Rick (the
BONK)?
Rick
Oh, look, the Eddies are trying to make some kind of point. Maybe they
should take their medication.
--
Rick
Rick
> * ZnU peremptorily fired off this memo:
>
>> This is what I've been saying for years. Linux has some decent apps for
>> very common desktop tasks like web browsing, word processing and
>> e-mail. And it has a scattering of high-end apps from markets where
>> Unix used to be popular, like high-end 3D. But that's about it. And
>> that's not enough to make it a viable operating system for demanding
>> users, unless they happen to be in certain very specific fields.
>
> Get back with us when you've evaluated all of the applications in this
> partial list of commercial applications, circa 2005:
>
> http://www.yolinux.com/TUTORIALS/LinuxCommercialApplications.html
>
> I don't see any of the commercial text-to-speech products we're looking
> into on that list, by the way.
>
> Simply put, both you and George are full of it. Here's your idiocy,
> repeated:
>
> "And that's not enough to make it a viable operating system for
> demanding users, unless they happen to be in certain very specific
> fields."
>
> If you're going to troll, you need to have a plausible thesis.
They don't -have- to have one.
--
Rick
Sandman
<2ada85ff-006f-42e6...@z66g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>,
Edwin <thor...@juno.com> wrote:
> > ZnU:
> > Even more importantly, look at the types of apps. The major apps
> > on the list are mostly in fields were proprietary Unix operating
> > systems once reigned. They don't represent some sort of bottom-up
> > growth of a new desktop app market on Linux. This is what I've
> > been saying for years. Linux has some decent apps for very common
> > desktop tasks like web browsing, word processing and e-mail. And
> > it has a scattering of high-end apps from markets where Unix used
> > to be popular, like high-end 3D. But that's about it. And that's
> > not enough to make it a viable operating system for demanding
> > users, unless they happen to be in certain very specific fields.
> Edwin:
> ZnU will now explain how Microsoft Silverlight for Linux comprises
> an old Unix application from a "very specific field."
Edwin will now explain how one application is any sign of a trend.
--
Sandman[.net]
Alan Baker
Are you unfamiliar with the meaning of the word "mostly"?
--
"The iPhone doesn't have a speaker phone" -- "I checked very carefully" --
"I checked Apple's web pages" -- Edwin on the iPhone
"It is Mac OS X, not BSD.' -- 'From Mac OS to BSD Unix." -- "It's BSD Unix with Apple's APIs and GUI on top of it' -- 'nothing but BSD Unix' (Edwin on Mac OS X)
'[The IBM PC] could boot multiple OS, such as DOS, C/PM, GEM, etc.' --
'I claimed nothing about GEM other than it was available software for the
IBM PC. (Edwin on GEM)
'Solaris is just a marketing rename of Sun OS.' -- 'Sun OS is not included
on the timeline of Solaris because it's a different OS.' (Edwin on Sun)
ZnU
Linonut <lin...@bollsouth.nut> wrote:
> * ZnU peremptorily fired off this memo:
>
> > This is what I've been saying for years. Linux has some decent apps for
> > very common desktop tasks like web browsing, word processing and e-mail.
> > And it has a scattering of high-end apps from markets where Unix used to
> > be popular, like high-end 3D. But that's about it. And that's not enough
> > to make it a viable operating system for demanding users, unless they
> > happen to be in certain very specific fields.
>
> Get back with us when you've evaluated all of the applications in this
> partial list of commercial applications, circa 2005:
>
> http://www.yolinux.com/TUTORIALS/LinuxCommercialApplications.html
Well, I can't speak for everyone in all fields. But I don't see
plausible replacements for Final Cut Pro or Photoshop on that list.
[snip]
ZnU
Sandman <m...@sandman.net> wrote:
Silverlight isn't even an application, it's a browser plug-in.
Cuphea Ignea
> In article <mr-E3949A.12...@News.Individual.NET>,
> Sandman <m...@sandman.net> wrote:
>
>> In article
>> <2ada85ff-006f-42e6...@z66g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>,
>> Edwin <thor...@juno.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> ZnU:
>>>> Even more importantly, look at the types of apps. The major apps
>>>> on the list are mostly in fields were proprietary Unix operating
>>>> systems once reigned. They don't represent some sort of bottom-up
>>>> growth of a new desktop app market on Linux. This is what I've
>>>> been saying for years. Linux has some decent apps for very common
>>>> desktop tasks like web browsing, word processing and e-mail. And
>>>> it has a scattering of high-end apps from markets where Unix used
>>>> to be popular, like high-end 3D. But that's about it. And that's
>>>> not enough to make it a viable operating system for demanding
>>>> users, unless they happen to be in certain very specific fields.
>>
>>> Edwin:
>>> ZnU will now explain how Microsoft Silverlight for Linux comprises
>>> an old Unix application from a "very specific field."
>>
>> Edwin will now explain how one application is any sign of a trend.
>
> Silverlight isn't even an application, it's a browser plug-in.
Have you seen the icon? Do you have any idea what you are talking about?
Cuphea Ignea
> Linonut <lin...@bollsouth.nut> wrote:
>
>> * ZnU peremptorily fired off this memo:
>>
>>> This is what I've been saying for years. Linux has some decent apps
>>> for very common desktop tasks like web browsing, word processing
>>> and e-mail. And it has a scattering of high-end apps from markets
>>> where Unix used to be popular, like high-end 3D. But that's about
>>> it. And that's not enough to make it a viable operating system for
>>> demanding users, unless they happen to be in certain very specific
>>> fields.
>>
>> Get back with us when you've evaluated all of the applications in
>> this partial list of commercial applications, circa 2005:
>>
>> http://www.yolinux.com/TUTORIALS/LinuxCommercialApplications.html
>
> Well, I can't speak for everyone in all fields. But I don't see
> plausible replacements for Final Cut Pro or Photoshop on that list.
>
> [snip]
GIMP is more than enough for most people, even professionals. What features
of Photoshop do you think GIMP is missing? What is lacking is there are
plug ins for plus it is more configurable and scriptable and it is open
source so if you like to add a feature or change a feature nothng is
stopping you.
Sandman
<Cig...@EcheveriaSetosa.com> wrote:
> > > > > ZnU:
> > > > > Even more importantly, look at the types of apps. The major
> > > > > apps on the list are mostly in fields were proprietary Unix
> > > > > operating systems once reigned. They don't represent some
> > > > > sort of bottom-up growth of a new desktop app market on
> > > > > Linux. This is what I've been saying for years. Linux has
> > > > > some decent apps for very common desktop tasks like web
> > > > > browsing, word processing and e-mail. And it has a
> > > > > scattering of high-end apps from markets where Unix used to
> > > > > be popular, like high-end 3D. But that's about it. And
> > > > > that's not enough to make it a viable operating system for
> > > > > demanding users, unless they happen to be in certain very
> > > > > specific fields.
> > > > Edwin:
> > > > ZnU will now explain how Microsoft Silverlight for Linux
> > > > comprises an old Unix application from a "very specific
> > > > field."
> > > Sandman:
> > > Edwin will now explain how one application is any sign of a
> > > trend.
> > ZnU:
> > Silverlight isn't even an application, it's a browser plug-in.
> Cuphea Ignea:
> Have you seen the icon? Do you have any idea what you are talking
> about?
Are you saying it IS an application based on the appearance of the
*icon*?
--
Sandman[.net]
Cuphea Ignea
news:mr-1C0F04.08...@News.Individual.NET
Are you saying it IS NOT?
George Graves
(in article <g1di2s$4br$1...@registered.motzarella.org>):
> ZnU splattered upon for all to feel:
>> In article <4S_Zj.19789$255....@bignews8.bellsouth.net>,
>> Linonut <lin...@bollsouth.nut> wrote:
>>
>>> * ZnU peremptorily fired off this memo:
>>>
>>>> This is what I've been saying for years. Linux has some decent apps
>>>> for very common desktop tasks like web browsing, word processing
>>>> and e-mail. And it has a scattering of high-end apps from markets
>>>> where Unix used to be popular, like high-end 3D. But that's about
>>>> it. And that's not enough to make it a viable operating system for
>>>> demanding users, unless they happen to be in certain very specific
>>>> fields.
>>>
>>> Get back with us when you've evaluated all of the applications in
>>> this partial list of commercial applications, circa 2005:
>>>
>>> http://www.yolinux.com/TUTORIALS/LinuxCommercialApplications.html
>>
>> Well, I can't speak for everyone in all fields. But I don't see
>> plausible replacements for Final Cut Pro or Photoshop on that list.
>>
>> [snip]
>
> GIMP is more than enough for most people, even professionals. What features
> of Photoshop do you think GIMP is missing?
CMYK. It's useless in pro circles without it. Yeah, yeah, I know there's a
plug-in that allows GIMP to output CMYK, but what happens when it's a CMYK
separation that you actually need to edit in GIMP? YOU CAN'T, and its
something that pre-press people have to do all the time.
> What is lacking is there are
> plug ins for plus it is more configurable and scriptable and it is open
> source so if you like to add a feature or change a feature nothng is
> stopping you.
Except that the support doesn't exist.
ZnU
"Cuphea Ignea" <Cig...@EcheveriaSetosa.com> wrote:
Yup, this thread is taking precisely the same course as all the other
Linux app threads. We've reached the stage where Linux advocates who
have no idea what they're talking about insist that apps are equivalent
when essentially no professional user considers them so.
I don't want to start picking apart the feature lists in question,
because they're long. So I'll simply note that in 10 years in various
content creation industries, I have never seen GIMP used as a Photoshop
alternative in a professional setting. Not a single time.
Cuphea Ignea
news:znu-C515AD.0...@news.individual.net
I tried to ignore the fact that you did not answer my question but I failed.
Features. Features. Do you not understand what I mean?
Moshe, Goldfarb.
> Yup, this thread is taking precisely the same course as all the other
> Linux app threads. We've reached the stage where Linux advocates who
> have no idea what they're talking about insist that apps are equivalent
> when essentially no professional user considers them so.
The so called Linux *advocates* will time and time again suggest their
generally lame alternatives for commercial, professional applications and
without regards to the level that these applications need to perform in
order to become industry standards.
For example, suggesting Ardour, or Audacity as a replacement for Protools
or Vegas/Soundforge/Nuendo is ludicrous at best.
Is Ardour a good program?
Sure it is.
It's used as an embedded program in some Harrison desks.
It functions well in that setting.
However, as a standalone program it can't hold a candle to offerings like
Nuendo or ProTools and the reason is VST instrument support for plugins and
obviously instruments.
If you walk into just about any commercial studio you will find ProTools,
Nuendo and a host of plugins from Native Instruments amongst others.
You will NOT find Ardour unless you seek out the few places that might
actually be using it.
Still the Linux Loons will offer these things up and quite frankly most of
the professional world will laugh.
> I don't want to start picking apart the feature lists in question,
> because they're long. So I'll simply note that in 10 years in various
> content creation industries, I have never seen GIMP used as a Photoshop
> alternative in a professional setting. Not a single time.
See above.
And before the Loons start bringing up Mirror studios article from 5 years
ago in Sound On Sound magazine, please read the article and realize Linux
is in the Q room, not the A room and that studio is kind of a joke anyway.
--
Moshe Goldfarb
Collector of soaps from around the globe.
Please visit The Hall of Linux Idiots:
http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/
Cuphea Ignea
I can edit in GIMP and there are CMYK plug-ins at least three if you do the
math. Which do you prefer?
>> What is lacking is there are
>> plug ins for plus it is more configurable and scriptable and it is
>> open source so if you like to add a feature or change a feature
>> nothng is stopping you.
>
> Except that the support doesn't exist.
You can do it yourself. Do you need your mama to help you pee still? The
code is open and you can be your own support. If you need help there is a
world wide community of experts not just the schlock that is there for
Photoshop.
Moshe, Goldfarb.
Photoshop cost money, a lot of money in fact.
Gimp is free, even under Windows.
So why is just about every major house using Photoshop and not Gimp?
ZnU
"Cuphea Ignea" <Cig...@EcheveriaSetosa.com> wrote:
> "ZnU" <z...@fake.invalid> wrote in message
> news:znu-C515AD.0...@news.individual.net
> > I don't want to start picking apart the feature lists in question,
> > because they're long. So I'll simply note that in 10 years in various
> > content creation industries, I have never seen GIMP used as a
> > Photoshop alternative in a professional setting. Not a single time.
>
> I tried to ignore the fact that you did not answer my question but I failed.
> Features. Features. Do you not understand what I mean?
It's useless. You want to compare bullet points. It doesn't work like
that. Your response to George about CMYK is a perfect example. You've
found a bullet point that says GIMP supports CMYK. But there's a huge
difference between outputting CMYK and natively supporting it. You don't
understand what that difference is, because you've barely got a clue
what CMYK is for and have probably never worked with a CMYK image.
Tim Murray
>>> Cuphea Ignea:
>>> Have you seen the icon? Do you have any idea what you are talking
>>> about?
>>
>> Are you saying it IS an application based on the appearance of the
>> *icon*?
>
> Are you saying it IS NOT?
I think it's more like "an icon doth not an application make." But anyway,
it's a plug-in for .Net-based media.
ZnU
"Cuphea Ignea" <Cig...@EcheveriaSetosa.com> wrote:
"Microsoft Silverlight is a cross-browser, cross-platform, and
cross-device plug-in for delivering the next generation of .NET based
media experiences and rich interactive applications for the Web."
Cuphea Ignea
news:ckijcv57led6.1afndmxs9y6j6$.d...@40tude.net
We do not know they are nor have you talked about features. Do you think
ethynol will burn as brightly as oil?
Cuphea Ignea
news:xht_j.71182$3v1....@bignews3.bellsouth.net
Why Sandman talk about the icon making it an application? An icon can mean
many things to different people from all sorts of cultures.
Cuphea Ignea
> In article <g1dm50$fv3$1...@registered.motzarella.org>,
> "Cuphea Ignea" <Cig...@EcheveriaSetosa.com> wrote:
>
>> "ZnU" <z...@fake.invalid> wrote in message
>> news:znu-C515AD.0...@news.individual.net
>
>>> I don't want to start picking apart the feature lists in question,
>>> because they're long. So I'll simply note that in 10 years in
>>> various content creation industries, I have never seen GIMP used as
>>> a Photoshop alternative in a professional setting. Not a single
>>> time.
>>
>> I tried to ignore the fact that you did not answer my question but I
>> failed. Features. Features. Do you not understand what I mean?
>
> It's useless.
I have used it so it can not be useless.
> You want to compare bullet points. It doesn't work like
> that. Your response to George about CMYK is a perfect example. You've
> found a bullet point that says GIMP supports CMYK. But there's a huge
> difference between outputting CMYK and natively supporting it. You
> don't understand what that difference is, because you've barely got a
> clue what CMYK is for and have probably never worked with a CMYK
> image.
I have not said what my experience is nor shall I defend myself to a make
beleive artist such as you!
Cuphea Ignea
> In article <g1dhe9$32f$1...@registered.motzarella.org>,
> "Cuphea Ignea" <Cig...@EcheveriaSetosa.com> wrote:
>
>> ZnU splattered upon for all to feel:
>>> In article <mr-E3949A.12...@News.Individual.NET>,
>>> Sandman <m...@sandman.net> wrote:
>
>>>> Edwin will now explain how one application is any sign of a trend.
>>>
>>> Silverlight isn't even an application, it's a browser plug-in.
>>
>> Have you seen the icon? Do you have any idea what you are talking
>> about?
>
> http://silverlight.net/
>
> "Microsoft Silverlight is a cross-browser, cross-platform, and
> cross-device plug-in for delivering the next generation of .NET based
> media experiences and rich interactive applications for the Web."
"Light up the Web." "Click to install."
ZnU
"Cuphea Ignea" <Cig...@EcheveriaSetosa.com> wrote:
> "ZnU" <z...@fake.invalid> wrote in message
> news:znu-2BA00B.0...@news.individual.net
> > In article <g1dm50$fv3$1...@registered.motzarella.org>, "Cuphea Ignea"
> > <Cig...@EcheveriaSetosa.com> wrote:
> >
> >> "ZnU" <z...@fake.invalid> wrote in message
> >> news:znu-C515AD.0...@news.individual.net
> >
> >>> I don't want to start picking apart the feature lists in
> >>> question, because they're long. So I'll simply note that in 10
> >>> years in various content creation industries, I have never seen
> >>> GIMP used as a Photoshop alternative in a professional setting.
> >>> Not a single time.
> >>
> >> I tried to ignore the fact that you did not answer my question but
> >> I failed. Features. Features. Do you not understand what I mean?
> >
> > It's useless.
>
> I have used it so it can not be useless.
I meant that a feature-by-feature comparison is useless.
> > You want to compare bullet points. It doesn't work like that. Your
> > response to George about CMYK is a perfect example. You've found a
> > bullet point that says GIMP supports CMYK. But there's a huge
> > difference between outputting CMYK and natively supporting it. You
> > don't understand what that difference is, because you've barely got
> > a clue what CMYK is for and have probably never worked with a CMYK
> > image.
>
> I have not said what my experience is nor shall I defend myself to a
> make beleive artist such as you!
In other words, you barely understand what I'm talking about because you
have no experience in this field.
ZnU
"Cuphea Ignea" <Cig...@EcheveriaSetosa.com> wrote:
> "ZnU" <z...@fake.invalid> wrote in message
> news:znu-F5DF83.0...@news.individual.net
> > In article <g1dhe9$32f$1...@registered.motzarella.org>,
> > "Cuphea Ignea" <Cig...@EcheveriaSetosa.com> wrote:
> >
> >> ZnU splattered upon for all to feel:
> >>> In article <mr-E3949A.12...@News.Individual.NET>,
> >>> Sandman <m...@sandman.net> wrote:
> >
> >>>> Edwin will now explain how one application is any sign of a trend.
> >>>
> >>> Silverlight isn't even an application, it's a browser plug-in.
> >>
> >> Have you seen the icon? Do you have any idea what you are talking
> >> about?
> >
> > http://silverlight.net/
> >
> > "Microsoft Silverlight is a cross-browser, cross-platform, and
> > cross-device plug-in for delivering the next generation of .NET based
> > media experiences and rich interactive applications for the Web."
>
> "Light up the Web." "Click to install."
"Incoherent"
Cuphea Ignea
> In article <g1dnt4$lsc$1...@registered.motzarella.org>,
> "Cuphea Ignea" <Cig...@EcheveriaSetosa.com> wrote:
>
>> "ZnU" <z...@fake.invalid> wrote in message
>> news:znu-2BA00B.0...@news.individual.net
>>> In article <g1dm50$fv3$1...@registered.motzarella.org>, "Cuphea Ignea"
>>> <Cig...@EcheveriaSetosa.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> "ZnU" <z...@fake.invalid> wrote in message
>>>> news:znu-C515AD.0...@news.individual.net
>>>
>>>>> I don't want to start picking apart the feature lists in
>>>>> question, because they're long. So I'll simply note that in 10
>>>>> years in various content creation industries, I have never seen
>>>>> GIMP used as a Photoshop alternative in a professional setting.
>>>>> Not a single time.
>>>>
>>>> I tried to ignore the fact that you did not answer my question but
>>>> I failed. Features. Features. Do you not understand what I mean?
>>>
>>> It's useless.
>>
>> I have used it so it can not be useless.
>
> I meant that a feature-by-feature comparison is useless.
Software IS features. Name one title that has no features.
>>> You want to compare bullet points. It doesn't work like that. Your
>>> response to George about CMYK is a perfect example. You've found a
>>> bullet point that says GIMP supports CMYK. But there's a huge
>>> difference between outputting CMYK and natively supporting it. You
>>> don't understand what that difference is, because you've barely got
>>> a clue what CMYK is for and have probably never worked with a CMYK
>>> image.
>>
>> I have not said what my experience is nor shall I defend myself to a
>> make beleive artist such as you!
>
> In other words, you barely understand what I'm talking about because
> you have no experience in this field.
I understand you said about me what you do not know. Do you even know the
history of CMYK? Do you know what Colour Filemark is? Talk about how that
relates to Photoshop.
--
http://www.as7apcool.com/
Cuphea Ignea
> In article <g1do06$m5u$1...@registered.motzarella.org>,
> "Cuphea Ignea" <Cig...@EcheveriaSetosa.com> wrote:
>
>> "ZnU" <z...@fake.invalid> wrote in message
>> news:znu-F5DF83.0...@news.individual.net
>>> In article <g1dhe9$32f$1...@registered.motzarella.org>,
>>> "Cuphea Ignea" <Cig...@EcheveriaSetosa.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> ZnU splattered upon for all to feel:
>>>>> In article <mr-E3949A.12...@News.Individual.NET>,
>>>>> Sandman <m...@sandman.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>> Edwin will now explain how one application is any sign of a
>>>>>> trend.
>>>>>
>>>>> Silverlight isn't even an application, it's a browser plug-in.
>>>>
>>>> Have you seen the icon? Do you have any idea what you are talking
>>>> about?
>>>
>>> http://silverlight.net/
>>>
>>> "Microsoft Silverlight is a cross-browser, cross-platform, and
>>> cross-device plug-in for delivering the next generation of .NET
>>> based media experiences and rich interactive applications for the
>>> Web."
>>
>> "Light up the Web." "Click to install."
>
> "Incoherent"
"You have chosen to open Silverlight.2.0.exe"
Understand now or is your web still dark?
--
http://www.as7apcool.com/
Sandman
<Cig...@EcheveriaSetosa.com> wrote:
> > Sandman:
> > Are you saying it IS an application based on the appearance of the
> > *icon*?
> Cuphea Ignea:
> Are you saying it IS NOT?
Yep. And I take your question as admittance that whether or not a
given code is an application or not can be determined on the
appearance of its icon.
Allow me to snicker.
--
Sandman[.net]
Cuphea Ignea
How can you tell it is not an application based on its icon?
"You have chosen to open Silverlight.2.0.exe"
Understand now or is your web still dark?
> And I take your question as admittance that whether or not a
> given code is an application or not can be determined on the
> appearance of its icon.
I do not agree to your view and would not 'admit' to it.
> Allow me to snicker.
Allow me to blow my nose on your sleeve.
Sandman
<Cig...@EcheveriaSetosa.com> wrote:
> > > Cuphea Ignea:
> > > ZnU splattered upon for all to feel:
> > > > > Linonut:
> > > > > * ZnU peremptorily fired off this memo:
> > > > > > ZnU:
> > > > > > This is what I've been saying for years. Linux has some
> > > > > > decent apps for very common desktop tasks like web
> > > > > > browsing, word processing and e-mail. And it has a
> > > > > > scattering of high-end apps from markets where Unix used
> > > > > > to be popular, like high-end 3D. But that's about it. And
> > > > > > that's not enough to make it a viable operating system for
> > > > > > demanding users, unless they happen to be in certain very
> > > > > > specific fields.
> > > > > Linonut:
> > > > > Get back with us when you've evaluated all of the
> > > > > applications in this partial list of commercial
> > > > > applications, circa 2005:
> > > > > http://www.yolinux.com/TUTORIALS/LinuxCommercialApplications
> > > > > .html
> > > > ZnU:
> > > > Well, I can't speak for everyone in all fields. But I don't
> > > > see plausible replacements for Final Cut Pro or Photoshop on
> > > > that list. [snip]
> > > Cuphea Ignea:
> > > GIMP is more than enough for most people, even professionals.
> > > What features of Photoshop do you think GIMP is missing? What
> > > is lacking is there are plug ins for plus it is more
> > > configurable and scriptable and it is open source so if you like
> > > to add a feature or change a feature nothng is stopping you.
> > ZnU:
> > Yup, this thread is taking precisely the same course as all the
> > other Linux app threads. We've reached the stage where Linux
> > advocates who have no idea what they're talking about insist that
> > apps are equivalent when essentially no professional user
> > considers them so. I don't want to start picking apart the feature
> > lists in question, because they're long. So I'll simply note that
> > in 10 years in various content creation industries, I have never
> > seen GIMP used as a Photoshop alternative in a professional
> > setting. Not a single time.
> Cuphea Ignea:
> I tried to ignore the fact that you did not answer my question but I
> failed. Features. Features. Do you not understand what I mean?
Instead of comparing spec sheets, why not point to the thousands upon
thousand of professional users who have switched to free gimp from
expensive photoshop?
What use are spec sheets if it isn't being used?
--
Sandman[.net]
Sandman
<Cig...@EcheveriaSetosa.com> wrote:
> > > > > Cuphea Ignea:
> > > > > Cuphea Ignea: Have you seen the icon? Do you have any idea
> > > > > what you are talking about?
> > > > Sandman:
> > > > Are you saying it IS an application based on the appearance of
> > > > the *icon*?
> > > Cuphea Ignea:
> > > Are you saying it IS NOT?
> > Tim Murray:
> > I think it's more like "an icon doth not an application make."
> > But anyway, it's a plug-in for .Net-based media.
> Cuphea Ignea:
> Why Sandman talk about the icon making it an application? An icon
> can mean many things to different people from all sorts of
> cultures.
You're the one claiming that whether an executable is an application
can be determined by looking at its icon. Hehe.
--
Sandman[.net]
Cuphea Ignea
Do you speak for your mother or let her say no?
Cuphea Ignea
Sandman
<Cig...@EcheveriaSetosa.com> wrote:
> > > > ZnU:
> > > > You want to compare bullet points. It doesn't work like that.
> > > > Your response to George about CMYK is a perfect example.
> > > > You've found a bullet point that says GIMP supports CMYK. But
> > > > there's a huge difference between outputting CMYK and natively
> > > > supporting it. You don't understand what that difference is,
> > > > because you've barely got a clue what CMYK is for and have
> > > > probably never worked with a CMYK image.
> > > Cuphea Ignea:
> > > I have not said what my experience is nor shall I defend myself
> > > to a make beleive artist such as you!
> > ZnU:
> > In other words, you barely understand what I'm talking about
> > because you have no experience in this field.
> Cuphea Ignea:
> I understand you said about me what you do not know. Do you even
> know the history of CMYK? Do you know what Colour Filemark is?
> Talk about how that relates to Photoshop.
Ahaaa, now I get it!
*plonk*
--
Sandman[.net]
Cuphea Ignea
You will get it if you try.
Hadron
> "ZnU" <z...@fake.invalid> wrote in message
> news:znu-2BA00B.0...@news.individual.net
>> In article <g1dm50$fv3$1...@registered.motzarella.org>,
>> "Cuphea Ignea" <Cig...@EcheveriaSetosa.com> wrote:
>>
>>> "ZnU" <z...@fake.invalid> wrote in message
>>> news:znu-C515AD.0...@news.individual.net
>>
>>>> I don't want to start picking apart the feature lists in question,
>>>> because they're long. So I'll simply note that in 10 years in
>>>> various content creation industries, I have never seen GIMP used as
>>>> a Photoshop alternative in a professional setting. Not a single
>>>> time.
>>>
>>> I tried to ignore the fact that you did not answer my question but I
>>> failed. Features. Features. Do you not understand what I mean?
>>
>> It's useless.
>
> I have used it so it can not be useless.
You sound like Rick where everything Linux/OSS "meets his needs". When
we discovered his "needs" everyone had a good chuckle.
Rick
See... and you ask why people doubt your honesty.
Again, for me, WP, SS, scanning, image editing, printing, listening to
audio (streaming and CD), watching video (streaming and VCD/DVD) web
server, ftp server...
And, I suppose you laugh at the needs of Largo, the needs of Chicago, the
needs of Hollywood studios, Google, IBM, Novell.... and the list goes on.
--
Rick
Rick
Well, Gimp was forked to Cinepaint, and that has been used in Hollywood.
Wine was also used to run Photoshop under Linux in Hollywood.
--
Rick
Linonut
> In article <4S_Zj.19789$255....@bignews8.bellsouth.net>,
> Linonut <lin...@bollsouth.nut> wrote:
>
>> * ZnU peremptorily fired off this memo:
>>
>> > This is what I've been saying for years. Linux has some decent apps for
>> > very common desktop tasks like web browsing, word processing and e-mail.
>> > And it has a scattering of high-end apps from markets where Unix used to
>> > be popular, like high-end 3D. But that's about it. And that's not enough
>> > to make it a viable operating system for demanding users, unless they
>> > happen to be in certain very specific fields.
>>
>> Get back with us when you've evaluated all of the applications in this
>> partial list of commercial applications, circa 2005:
>>
>> http://www.yolinux.com/TUTORIALS/LinuxCommercialApplications.html
>
> Well, I can't speak for everyone in all fields. But I don't see
> plausible replacements for Final Cut Pro or Photoshop on that list.
Fair enough. But take note that you may have moved the goalpost, since
you were originally talking about "desktops", and now your talking about
"photo studios". (If I'm misremembering your original postings, please
forgive me.)
In any case, thanks to a motivated user (Disney, I believe), we can now
run Photoshop on WINE to get that last little bit of functionality that
apparently GIMP does not have. (Personally, GIMP has been much much
more tnan /I/ need.)
But with major studios pushing Linux hard (even if their apps are often
in-house, un-shared projects), I wouldn't expect this situation to last
forever.
--
Microsoft looks at new ideas, they don't evaluate whether the idea will move
the industry forward, they ask, 'how will it help us sell more copies of
Windows?'
-- Bill Gates, The Seattle Weekly, (April 30, 1998)[2]
Edwin
> On Sat, 24 May 2008 14:24:52 -0700, Edwin wrote:
> > On May 23, 6:25 pm, Rick <n...@nomail.com> wrote:
> >> On Fri, 23 May 2008 12:53:34 -0500, Sgt. Friday wrote:
> >> > Rick wrote:
> >> >> On Thu, 22 May 2008 20:33:31 -0700, George Graves wrote:
>
> >> >>> On Thu, 22 May 2008 18:06:37 -0700, Rick wrote (in article
> >> >>> <NsmdnfPSe9wAhavVnZ2dnUVZ_gSdn...@supernews.com>):
>
> >> >>>> On Thu, 22 May 2008 17:58:35 -0700, George Graves wrote:
>
> >> >>>>> On Thu, 22 May 2008 17:38:29 -0700, Tim Smith wrote (in article
> >> >>>>> <reply_in_group-F9BC7B.17382922052...@news.supernews.com>):
>
> > [snip]
>
> >> >> I will rephrase: Open Office is a very good replacement for a large
> >> >> number of people right now.
>
> >> > Which people are your going to replace with Open Office?
>
> >> > ** Posted fromhttp://www.teranews.com**
>
> >> .. and you think you have any credibility posting from teranews, and
> >> with the handle of Sgt. Friday?
>
> > What kind of "credibility" does he need to make a joke, Rick (the BONK)?
>
> Oh, look, the Eddies are trying to make some kind of point.
There's no point sharp enough to penetrate your rock-hard cranium.
> Maybe they
> should take their medication.
You ought to find and take a medication that cures mental retardation.
Edwin
> In article <mr-E3949A.12100525052...@News.Individual.NET>,
>
>
>
>
>
> Sandman <m...@sandman.net> wrote:
> > In article
> > <2ada85ff-006f-42e6-8cae-b325c6007...@z66g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>,
> > Edwin <thorn...@juno.com> wrote:
>
> > > > ZnU:
> > > > Even more importantly, look at the types of apps. The major apps
> > > > on the list are mostly in fields were proprietary Unix operating
> > > > systems once reigned. They don't represent some sort of bottom-up
> > > > been saying for years. Linux has some decent apps for very common
> > > > desktop tasks like web browsing, word processing and e-mail. And
> > > > it has a scattering of high-end apps from markets where Unix used
> > > > to be popular, like high-end 3D. But that's about it. And that's
> > > > not enough to make it a viable operating system for demanding
> > > > users, unless they happen to be in certain very specific fields.
>
> > > ZnU will now explain how Microsoft Silverlight for Linux comprises
> > > an old Unix application from a "very specific field."
>
>
"Microsoft Silverlight is a cross-browser, cross-platform, and cross-
device plug-in for delivering the next generation of .NET based media
experiences and rich interactive applications for the Web. "
Yes, folks, both Sandman and ZnU are stupid and dishonest enough to
dismiss a thing without having the foggest idea of what it is.
Edwin
> In article <0001HW.C45C777C0016549EF0184...@news.comcast.net>,
> George Graves <gmgrav...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > On Fri, 23 May 2008 09:48:40 -0700, Sgt. Friday wrote
> > (in article <e0866$4836f569$14...@news.teranews.com>):
>
> [snip]
>
> > > That's just a small sampling of available "professional grade" Linux
> > > applications.
>
> > Actually, its about all of them, isn't it? So aside from Maya and all its
> > standalone components, Sybase and its standalone components, 4 CAD packages,
> > a Gnu "Visio" knockoff, Matlab, a couple of Adobe "alpha" enabling plug-ins
> > for Linux, and a version of Acrobat Reader, what else is there?
>
> Even more importantly, look at the types of apps. The major apps on the
> list are mostly in fields were proprietary Unix operating systems once
> reigned. They don't represent some sort of bottom-up growth of a new
> desktop app market on Linux.
There go the goal posts again. From "Linux has no professional
applications" to "those professional applications I denied exist don't
represent bottom-up growth."
> This is what I've been saying for years.
With no regard to how it has become increasingly untrue over that span
of years.
> Linux has some decent apps for
> very common desktop tasks like web browsing, word processing and e-mail.
Gee, just like the Mac!
> And it has a scattering of high-end apps from markets where Unix used to
> be popular, like high-end 3D.
You mean like the Mac has a scattering of high end publishing and film
editing apps, but little else?
> But that's about it.
What about all the Windows apps you can run under Cross Office?
> And that's not enough
> to make it a viable operating system for demanding users, unless they
> happen to be in certain very specific fields.
ZnU will never identify these vague "demanding users" nor name what
mysterious needs they have that Linux can not satisfy.
Edwin
> In article
> <2ada85ff-006f-42e6-8cae-b325c6007...@z66g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>,
>
>
>
>
>
> Edwin <thorn...@juno.com> wrote:
> > > In article <0001HW.C45C777C0016549EF0184...@news.comcast.net>,
> > > George Graves <gmgrav...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > > > On Fri, 23 May 2008 09:48:40 -0700, Sgt. Friday wrote
> > > > (in article <e0866$4836f569$14...@news.teranews.com>):
>
> > > [snip]
>
> > > > > That's just a small sampling of available "professional grade" Linux
> > > > > applications.
>
> > > > Actually, its about all of them, isn't it? So aside from Maya and all its
> > > > standalone components, Sybase and its standalone components, 4 CAD
> > > > packages,
> > > > a Gnu "Visio" knockoff, Matlab, a couple of Adobe "alpha" enabling
> > > > plug-ins
> > > > for Linux, and a version of Acrobat Reader, what else is there?
>
> > > Even more importantly, look at the types of apps. The major apps on the
> > > list are mostly in fields were proprietary Unix operating systems once
> > > reigned. They don't represent some sort of bottom-up growth of a new
> > > desktop app market on Linux.
>
> > > very common desktop tasks like web browsing, word processing and e-mail.
> > > to make it a viable operating system for demanding users, unless they
> > > happen to be in certain very specific fields.
>
> > old Unix application from a "very specific field."
>
No, I don't share your shortcomings, not your unfamilarity with the
word "mostly," and even more so not your shockingly low reading
comprehension that keeps you from understanding how I address the
whole of ZnU's post with my remark.
Alan Baker
<d83e33a7-26ec-4ef0...@m44g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>,
Edwin <thor...@juno.com> wrote:
Then if you understand the word, you must have understood that by using
it, Znu was explicitly saying that there were items on that list that
were *not* "apps in fields where proprietary Unix operating systems once
reigned". That makes your instistence that he show something is what he
already undertands it is not very odd.
--
"The iPhone doesn't have a speaker phone" -- "I checked very carefully" --
"I checked Apple's web pages" -- Edwin on the iPhone
"It is Mac OS X, not BSD.' -- 'From Mac OS to BSD Unix." -- "It's BSD Unix with Apple's APIs and GUI on top of it' -- 'nothing but BSD Unix' (Edwin on Mac OS X)
'[The IBM PC] could boot multiple OS, such as DOS, C/PM, GEM, etc.' --
'I claimed nothing about GEM other than it was available software for the
IBM PC. (Edwin on GEM)
'Solaris is just a marketing rename of Sun OS.' -- 'Sun OS is not included
on the timeline of Solaris because it's a different OS.' (Edwin on Sun)
Tim Murray
Look, maybe language thing it is, but sense you are making not.
Alan Baker
<7d6c140e-ce39-4b76...@a70g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
Edwin <thor...@juno.com> wrote:
Despite the marketing hype in which it is written, the quote agrees with
what Znu said.
Sandman
<no...@nomail.com> wrote:
> > > Cuphea Ignea:
> > > Cuphea Ignea: I tried to ignore the fact that you did not answer
> > > my question but I failed. Features. Features. Do you not
> > > understand what I mean?
> > Sandman:
> > Instead of comparing spec sheets, why not point to the thousands
> > upon thousand of professional users who have switched to free gimp
> > from expensive photoshop? What use are spec sheets if it isn't
> > being used?
> Rick:
> Well, Gimp was forked to Cinepaint, and that has been used in
> Hollywood.
As opposed to Gimp, then.
> Wine was also used to run Photoshop under Linux in
> Hollywood.
As opposed to Gimp, then.
--
Sandman[.net]
George Graves
(in article <g1dm8k$g95$1...@registered.motzarella.org>):
> "George Graves" <gmgr...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:0001HW.C45FA697...@news.comcast.net
>> On Mon, 26 May 2008 01:33:05 -0700, Cuphea Ignea wrote
>> (in article <g1di2s$4br$1...@registered.motzarella.org>):
>>
>>> ZnU splattered upon for all to feel:
>>>> In article <4S_Zj.19789$255....@bignews8.bellsouth.net>,
>>>> Linonut <lin...@bollsouth.nut> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> * ZnU peremptorily fired off this memo:
>>>>>
>>>>>> This is what I've been saying for years. Linux has some decent
>>>>>> apps for very common desktop tasks like web browsing, word
>>>>>> processing and e-mail. And it has a scattering of high-end apps
>>>>>> from markets where Unix used to be popular, like high-end 3D. But
>>>>>> that's about it. And that's not enough to make it a viable
>>>>>> operating system for demanding users, unless they happen to be in
>>>>>> certain very specific fields.
>>>>>
>>>>> Get back with us when you've evaluated all of the applications in
>>>>> this partial list of commercial applications, circa 2005:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.yolinux.com/TUTORIALS/LinuxCommercialApplications.html
>>>>
>>>> Well, I can't speak for everyone in all fields. But I don't see
>>>> plausible replacements for Final Cut Pro or Photoshop on that list.
>>>>
>>>> [snip]
>>>
>>> GIMP is more than enough for most people, even professionals. What
>>> features of Photoshop do you think GIMP is missing?
>>
>>
>> CMYK. It's useless in pro circles without it. Yeah, yeah, I know
>> there's a plug-in that allows GIMP to output CMYK, but what happens
>> when it's a CMYK separation that you actually need to edit in GIMP?
>> YOU CAN'T, and its something that pre-press people have to do all the
>> time.
>
> I can edit in GIMP and there are CMYK plug-ins at least three if you do the
> math. Which do you prefer?
Two separate things. You can edit in RGB and export the files as CMYK, but
you can't edit a CMYK separation because the application doesn't support CMYK
directly.
>
>>> What is lacking is there are
>>> plug ins for plus it is more configurable and scriptable and it is
>>> open source so if you like to add a feature or change a feature
>>> nothng is stopping you.
>>
>> Except that the support doesn't exist.
>
> You can do it yourself. Do you need your mama to help you pee still? The
> code is open and you can be your own support. If you need help there is a
> world wide community of experts not just the schlock that is there for
> Photoshop.
First of all, I'm not a programmer. Secondly, if that applies to me, then it
applies to anyone. The fact that nobody has made GIMP CMYK compliant means
one of two things: either it's too big a job requiring a core re-write, or no
professionals are interested in the program. Either way, its not ready for
primetime.
>
>
George Graves
(in article <znu-C515AD.0...@news.individual.net>):
> In article <g1di2s$4br$1...@registered.motzarella.org>,
> "Cuphea Ignea" <Cig...@EcheveriaSetosa.com> wrote:
>
>> ZnU splattered upon for all to feel:
>>> In article <4S_Zj.19789$255....@bignews8.bellsouth.net>,
>>> Linonut <lin...@bollsouth.nut> wrote:
>>>
>>>> * ZnU peremptorily fired off this memo:
>>>>
>>>>> This is what I've been saying for years. Linux has some decent apps
>>>>> for very common desktop tasks like web browsing, word processing
>>>>> and e-mail. And it has a scattering of high-end apps from markets
>>>>> where Unix used to be popular, like high-end 3D. But that's about
>>>>> it. And that's not enough to make it a viable operating system for
>>>>> demanding users, unless they happen to be in certain very specific
>>>>> fields.
>>>>
>>>> Get back with us when you've evaluated all of the applications in
>>>> this partial list of commercial applications, circa 2005:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.yolinux.com/TUTORIALS/LinuxCommercialApplications.html
>>>
>>> Well, I can't speak for everyone in all fields. But I don't see
>>> plausible replacements for Final Cut Pro or Photoshop on that list.
>>>
>>> [snip]
>>
>> GIMP is more than enough for most people, even professionals. What features
>> of Photoshop do you think GIMP is missing? What is lacking is there are
>> plug ins for plus it is more configurable and scriptable and it is open
>> source so if you like to add a feature or change a feature nothng is
>> stopping you.
>
> Yup, this thread is taking precisely the same course as all the other
> Linux app threads. We've reached the stage where Linux advocates who
> have no idea what they're talking about insist that apps are equivalent
> when essentially no professional user considers them so.
>
> I don't want to start picking apart the feature lists in question,
> because they're long. So I'll simply note that in 10 years in various
> content creation industries, I have never seen GIMP used as a Photoshop
> alternative in a professional setting. Not a single time.
>
>
Nor have I.
Sandman
<7d6c140e-ce39-4b76...@a70g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
Edwin <thor...@juno.com> wrote:
> > > > > ZnU:
> > > > > Even more importantly, look at the types of apps. The major
> > > > > apps on the list are mostly in fields were proprietary Unix
> > > > > operating systems once reigned. They don't represent some
> > > > > sort of bottom-up growth of a new desktop app market on
> > > > > Linux. This is what I've been saying for years. Linux has
> > > > > some decent apps for very common desktop tasks like web
> > > > > browsing, word processing and e-mail. And it has a
> > > > > scattering of high-end apps from markets where Unix used to
> > > > > be popular, like high-end 3D. But that's about it. And
> > > > > that's not enough to make it a viable operating system for
> > > > > demanding users, unless they happen to be in certain very
> > > > > specific fields.
> > > > Edwin:
> > > > ZnU will now explain how Microsoft Silverlight for Linux
> > > > comprises an old Unix application from a "very specific
> > > > field."
> > > Sandman:
> > > Edwin will now explain how one application is any sign of a
> > > trend.
> > ZnU:
> > Silverlight isn't even an application, it's a browser plug-in.
> Edwin:
> "Microsoft Silverlight is a cross-browser, cross-platform, and
> cross- device plug-in for delivering the next generation of .NET
> based media experiences and rich interactive applications for the
> Web. " http://silverlight.net/ Yes, folks, both Sandman and ZnU are
> stupid and dishonest enough to dismiss a thing without having the
> foggest idea of what it is.
Huh? I knew exactly what it was? I apologize if me calling it
"application" confused you, but it's because that's what you called it
[1] and I didn't want to change nomenclature
[1] You replied with this on a request for "professional grade"
applications:
<e0866$4836f569$14...@news.teranews.com>
If you knew that Silverlight wasn't an application, why did you
include it in your list, Edwin?
--
Sandman[.net]
George Graves
(in article <g1dm50$fv3$1...@registered.motzarella.org>):
> "ZnU" <z...@fake.invalid> wrote in message
> news:znu-C515AD.0...@news.individual.net
>> In article <g1di2s$4br$1...@registered.motzarella.org>,
>> "Cuphea Ignea" <Cig...@EcheveriaSetosa.com> wrote:
>>
>>> ZnU splattered upon for all to feel:
>>>> In article <4S_Zj.19789$255....@bignews8.bellsouth.net>,
>>>> Linonut <lin...@bollsouth.nut> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> * ZnU peremptorily fired off this memo:
>>>>>
>>>>>> This is what I've been saying for years. Linux has some decent
>>>>>> apps for very common desktop tasks like web browsing, word
>>>>>> processing and e-mail. And it has a scattering of high-end apps
>>>>>> from markets where Unix used to be popular, like high-end 3D. But
>>>>>> that's about it. And that's not enough to make it a viable
>>>>>> operating system for demanding users, unless they happen to be in
>>>>>> certain very specific fields.
>>>>>
>>>>> Get back with us when you've evaluated all of the applications in
>>>>> this partial list of commercial applications, circa 2005:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.yolinux.com/TUTORIALS/LinuxCommercialApplications.html
>>>>
>>>> Well, I can't speak for everyone in all fields. But I don't see
>>>> plausible replacements for Final Cut Pro or Photoshop on that list.
>>>>
>>>> [snip]
>>>
>>> GIMP is more than enough for most people, even professionals. What
>>> features of Photoshop do you think GIMP is missing? What is lacking
>>> is there are plug ins for plus it is more configurable and
>>> scriptable and it is open source so if you like to add a feature or
>>> change a feature nothng is stopping you.
>>
>> Yup, this thread is taking precisely the same course as all the other
>> Linux app threads. We've reached the stage where Linux advocates who
>> have no idea what they're talking about insist that apps are
>> equivalent when essentially no professional user considers them so.
>>
>> I don't want to start picking apart the feature lists in question,
>> because they're long. So I'll simply note that in 10 years in various
>> content creation industries, I have never seen GIMP used as a
>> Photoshop alternative in a professional setting. Not a single time.
>
> I tried to ignore the fact that you did not answer my question but I failed.
> Features. Features. Do you not understand what I mean?
>
>
I do, and so, I suspect, does Znu. The main feature is core CMYK support. It
doesn't exist in GIMP and it relegates GIMP to home digital photo retouching.
Come back an talk to us about this subject when you learn what professional
Photoshop users NEED from the program. You clearly don't have a clue.
George Graves
(in article <g1dnt4$lsc$1...@registered.motzarella.org>):
> "ZnU" <z...@fake.invalid> wrote in message
> news:znu-2BA00B.0...@news.individual.net
>> In article <g1dm50$fv3$1...@registered.motzarella.org>,
>> "Cuphea Ignea" <Cig...@EcheveriaSetosa.com> wrote:
>>
>>> "ZnU" <z...@fake.invalid> wrote in message
>>> news:znu-C515AD.0...@news.individual.net
>>
>>>> I don't want to start picking apart the feature lists in question,
>>>> because they're long. So I'll simply note that in 10 years in
>>>> various content creation industries, I have never seen GIMP used as
>>>> a Photoshop alternative in a professional setting. Not a single
>>>> time.
>>>
>>> I tried to ignore the fact that you did not answer my question but I
>>> failed. Features. Features. Do you not understand what I mean?
>>
>> It's useless.
>
> I have used it so it can not be useless.
>
>> You want to compare bullet points. It doesn't work like
>> that. Your response to George about CMYK is a perfect example. You've
>> found a bullet point that says GIMP supports CMYK. But there's a huge
>> difference between outputting CMYK and natively supporting it. You
>> don't understand what that difference is, because you've barely got a
>> clue what CMYK is for and have probably never worked with a CMYK
>> image.
>
> I have not said what my experience is nor shall I defend myself to a make
> beleive artist such as you!
You don't have to say what your experience is. Your posts show that you don't
know what you are talking about on this subject.
Rick
Yes, as opposed to Gimp. I thought was clear.
--
Rick
Sandman
<no...@nomail.com> wrote:
> > > Rick:
> > > Well, Gimp was forked to Cinepaint, and that has been used in
> > > Hollywood.
> > Sandman:
> > As opposed to Gimp, then.
> > > Rick:
> > > Wine was also used to run Photoshop under Linux in Hollywood.
> > Sandman:
> > As opposed to Gimp, then.
> Rick:
> Yes, as opposed to Gimp. I thought was clear.
Ah, so you agreed with me that Gimp isn't a serious tool used by
professionals. I sort of gathered that you didn't. Sorry.
--
Sandman[.net]
ZnU
Linonut <lin...@bollsouth.nut> wrote:
> * ZnU peremptorily fired off this memo:
>
> > In article <4S_Zj.19789$255....@bignews8.bellsouth.net>,
> > Linonut <lin...@bollsouth.nut> wrote:
> >
> >> * ZnU peremptorily fired off this memo:
> >>
> >> > This is what I've been saying for years. Linux has some decent apps for
> >> > very common desktop tasks like web browsing, word processing and e-mail.
> >> > And it has a scattering of high-end apps from markets where Unix used to
> >> > be popular, like high-end 3D. But that's about it. And that's not enough
> >> > to make it a viable operating system for demanding users, unless they
> >> > happen to be in certain very specific fields.
> >>
> >> Get back with us when you've evaluated all of the applications in this
> >> partial list of commercial applications, circa 2005:
> >>
> >> http://www.yolinux.com/TUTORIALS/LinuxCommercialApplications.html
> >
> > Well, I can't speak for everyone in all fields. But I don't see
> > plausible replacements for Final Cut Pro or Photoshop on that list.
>
> Fair enough. But take note that you may have moved the goalpost, since
> you were originally talking about "desktops", and now your talking about
> "photo studios". (If I'm misremembering your original postings, please
> forgive me.)
The relevant post is quoted above. I *said* Linux had decent apps for
common desktop apps. It just gets gets into big trouble when you move
outside of the things that virtually 100% of users do. (Except, again,
in a few specific fields.)
And Photoshop is a pretty widely used app. Just about every profession
that involves working with images in any way, from desktop publishing to
web design to filmmaking, probably involves Photoshop somewhere along
the way. Implying Photoshop is only for "photo studios" is rather like
implying nobody would be interested in a word processor except
professional novelists.
> In any case, thanks to a motivated user (Disney, I believe), we can now
> run Photoshop on WINE to get that last little bit of functionality that
> apparently GIMP does not have. (Personally, GIMP has been much much
> more tnan /I/ need.)
>
> But with major studios pushing Linux hard (even if their apps are often
> in-house, un-shared projects), I wouldn't expect this situation to last
> forever.
What the major studios do has never had very much impact on anyone else.
They tend to focus their own development efforts on in-house tools,
often with extremely narrow applications, and simply use off-the-shelf
apps like Photoshop for more general sorts of tasks. While it's nice to
think the studios would, though enlightened self-interest, build free
Linux-based alternatives to apps like Photoshop and Final Cut Pro, there
are no substantive indications that this is happening.
--
"More than two decades later, it is hard to imagine the Revolutionary War coming
out any other way."
--George W. Bush in Martinsburg, W. Va., July 4, 2007
ZnU
"Cuphea Ignea" <Cig...@EcheveriaSetosa.com> wrote:
> "ZnU" <z...@fake.invalid> wrote in message
> news:znu-17B813.0...@news.individual.net
> > In article <g1do06$m5u$1...@registered.motzarella.org>,
> > "Cuphea Ignea" <Cig...@EcheveriaSetosa.com> wrote:
> >
> >> "ZnU" <z...@fake.invalid> wrote in message
> >> news:znu-F5DF83.0...@news.individual.net
> >>> In article <g1dhe9$32f$1...@registered.motzarella.org>,
> >>> "Cuphea Ignea" <Cig...@EcheveriaSetosa.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> ZnU splattered upon for all to feel:
> >>>>> In article <mr-E3949A.12...@News.Individual.NET>,
> >>>>> Sandman <m...@sandman.net> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>>> Edwin will now explain how one application is any sign of a
> >>>>>> trend.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Silverlight isn't even an application, it's a browser plug-in.
> >>>>
> >>>> Have you seen the icon? Do you have any idea what you are talking
> >>>> about?
> >>>
> >>> http://silverlight.net/
> >>>
> >>> "Microsoft Silverlight is a cross-browser, cross-platform, and
> >>> cross-device plug-in for delivering the next generation of .NET
> >>> based media experiences and rich interactive applications for the
> >>> Web."
> >>
> >> "Light up the Web." "Click to install."
> >
> > "Incoherent"
>
> "You have chosen to open Silverlight.2.0.exe"
>
> Understand now or is your web still dark?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Application_software
"Application software is a subclass of computer software that employs
the capabilities of a computer directly and thoroughly to a task that
the user wishes to perform."
Silverlight doesn't perform any task directly for the user. It provides
services to application software. It's an application environment, not
an application.
Linonut
> In article <gNy_j.50369$7a....@bignews1.bellsouth.net>,
> And Photoshop is a pretty widely used app. Just about every profession
> that involves working with images in any way, from desktop publishing to
> web design to filmmaking, probably involves Photoshop somewhere along
> the way. Implying Photoshop is only for "photo studios" is rather like
> implying nobody would be interested in a word processor except
> professional novelists.
Exactly. Consider these two descriptive phrases:
- profession that involves working with images in any way
- "photo studios"
Now explain to me how they are different.
>> But with major studios pushing Linux hard (even if their apps are often
>> in-house, un-shared projects), I wouldn't expect this situation to last
>> forever.
>
> What the major studios do has never had very much impact on anyone else.
Sure it don't, ZnU, sure it don't:
http://www.manilastandardtoday.com/?page=business05_aug01_2006
Intrigued by the possibilities, I did some research and found a 2003
article in eWeek about how Walt Disney\u2019s animation unit and two
other competing studios jointly funded a project with CodeWeavers,
the leading corporate backer of Wine, to develop a solution that
would allow them to run Photoshop on Linux.
The project cost Disney less than $15,000, but saved it more than
$50,000 a year in Windows licenses, eWeek reported. At the same
time, CodeWeavers was able to incorporate the technology into Wine
and its commercial version, CrossOver Office.
A quick check with the Wine Web site showed that Photoshop was
indeed among the 4,398 Windows applications that would run under
Wine.
(There are caveats about stability, but the article is almost two years
old.)
> They tend to focus their own development efforts on in-house tools,
> often with extremely narrow applications, and simply use off-the-shelf
> apps like Photoshop for more general sorts of tasks. While it's nice to
> think the studios would, though enlightened self-interest, build free
> Linux-based alternatives to apps like Photoshop and Final Cut Pro, there
> are no substantive indications that this is happening.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blender_(software)
Blender was developed as an in-house application by the Dutch
animation studio NeoGeo (not to be confused with the Neo-Geo game
console) and Not a Number Technologies (NaN).
. . .
The creditors agreed to release Blender under the terms of the GNU
General Public License, for a one-time payment of EU100,000
(approximately US$147,000 as of January 2008; approximately equal to
the amount in US-dollars at the time). On July 18, 2002, a Blender
funding campaign was started by Roosendaal in order to collect
donations and on September 7, 2002 it was announced that enough funds
had been collected and that the Blender source code would be
released. Blender is now an open source program being actively
developed under the supervision of the Blender Foundation
Not open source, but:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_%28software%29
Maya is a popular, integrated node-based 3D software suite, evolved
from Wavefront Explorer and Alias PowerAnimator using technologies
from both. The software is released in two versions: Maya Complete
and Maya Unlimited. Maya Personal Learning Edition (PLE) is available
at no cost for non-commercial use, although the resulting rendered
images are watermarked.
Maya was originally released for the IRIX operating system, and
subsequently ported to the Microsoft Windows, Linux and Mac OS X
operating systems. IRIX support was discontinued after the release of
version 6.5. When Autodesk acquired Alias in October 2005, they
continued Maya development. The latest version, 2008 (9.0), was
released in September 2007.
Partially open source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinelerra
Cinelerra has gained ground among some GNU/Linux enthusiasts looking
for a native video editing system. Professional use is mostly
promoted by Linux Media Arts, which sells Cinelerra as part of an
integrated hardware and software package for video production.
. . .
Because of both the latency in development and the
distribution-specific nature of the release, a group of free and
open-source software developers created their own version of
Cinelerra referred to as Cinelerra-CV (where CV stands for Community
Version).
> While it's nice to think the studios would, though enlightened
> self-interest, build free Linux-based alternatives to apps like
> Photoshop and Final Cut Pro, there are no substantive indications that
> this is happening.
You might want to reconsider what you wrote.
Not from a professional company:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CinePaint
CinePaint is a computer program to paint on and retouch bitmap frames
of movies. It is a fork of version 1.0.4 of the GNU Image
Manipulation Program (GIMP). It is likely the most successful open
source tool in feature motion picture work today.[1] It is free
software under the GNU General Public License.
Under its old name Film Gimp, CinePaint has so far been used for
films such as Scooby-Doo, Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone,
The Last Samurai and Stuart Little[2].
Features that set CinePaint apart from its photo-editing predecessor
are the frame manager, the possibility to do onion skinning, and to
work with 16-bit and floating point pixels for HDR. CinePaint
supports a 16-bit colour managed workflow for photographers and
printers, including CIE*Lab and CMYK editing. It supports the Cineon,
DPX, and OpenEXR image file formats. HDR creation from bracketed
exposures is easy.
It is available for Linux, BSD, UNIX-like OSes, Mac OS X, and SGI
IRIX. Currently support for Windows is broken.
Yeah, reconsider.
--
Television is not real life. In real life people actually have to leave the
coffee shop and go to jobs.
-- Bill Gates
Moshe, Goldfarb.
>
> Now explain to me how they are different.
Dance Liarnut!
DANCE!!
Only a truly rabid Linux zealot would attempt to argue:
Gimp vs Photoshop
Audacity vs Protools
Games......
You loons should stick to compilers and text editors.
Linux probably wins that one.
--
Moshe Goldfarb
Collector of soaps from around the globe.
Please visit The Hall of Linux Idiots:
http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/
ZnU
Linonut <lin...@bollsouth.nut> wrote:
> * ZnU peremptorily fired off this memo:
>
> > In article <gNy_j.50369$7a....@bignews1.bellsouth.net>,
> > And Photoshop is a pretty widely used app. Just about every profession
> > that involves working with images in any way, from desktop publishing to
> > web design to filmmaking, probably involves Photoshop somewhere along
> > the way. Implying Photoshop is only for "photo studios" is rather like
> > implying nobody would be interested in a word processor except
> > professional novelists.
>
> Exactly. Consider these two descriptive phrases:
>
> - profession that involves working with images in any way
> - "photo studios"
>
> Now explain to me how they are different.
I'm not sure I understand your point.
> >> But with major studios pushing Linux hard (even if their apps are often
> >> in-house, un-shared projects), I wouldn't expect this situation to last
> >> forever.
> >
> > What the major studios do has never had very much impact on anyone else.
>
> Sure it don't, ZnU, sure it don't:
>
> http://www.manilastandardtoday.com/?page=business05_aug01_2006
>
> Intrigued by the possibilities, I did some research and found a 2003
> article in eWeek about how Walt Disney\u2019s animation unit and two
> other competing studios jointly funded a project with CodeWeavers,
> the leading corporate backer of Wine, to develop a solution that
> would allow them to run Photoshop on Linux.
That's nice, but not of much interest to anyone who doesn't have
Disney's in-house support resources.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blender_(software)
>
> Blender was developed as an in-house application by the Dutch
> animation studio NeoGeo (not to be confused with the Neo-Geo game
> console) and Not a Number Technologies (NaN).
Blender is a 3D app. Linux has always been stronger in 3D than
elsewhere, because this was a significant market for commercial Unix
systems. 3D apps on Linux represent a migration to Linux from platforms
like IRIX, not a flowering of Linux as a mainstream desktop platform.
[snip]
> Not open source, but:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_%28software%29
See above comments about the 3D market. It's even more obvious with
Maya, which was ported directly from IRIX.
> Partially open source:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinelerra
Cinelerra is completely off the radar in this market. Seriously. I'm in
video production. I've never once seen it mentioned in a mainstream vido
production magazine, or heard anyone ask about it in a video production
forum... let alone seen anyone actually using it in production.
> Not from a professional company:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CinePaint
CinePaint is an application for frame-by-frame retouching, which is an
extremely narrow application. It's largely just not done outside of
major post houses working on big-budget projects, because it's
astoundingly labor intensive.
This thread is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. Linux
advocates think that Linux is relevant to, for instance, the video
production industry, because they read articles like the above and don't
understand what anything actually means. They don't understand that, for
instance, the availability of CinePaint does absolutely nothing at all
to make Linux a plausible replacement for, say, OS X in the most video
production shops. They just see that it's vaguely related to the
industry and there are some respected names using it.